WEBVTT
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Kelly.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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For this recording episode of the podcast.
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I'm so excited to have you in here to share your journey with holistic management.
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I'd like to start off with asking you to introduce yourself and embedded in there.
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If you would also share how you were introduced to holistic management and and we'll go from there.
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Okay.
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That sounds great.
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Thanks so much for having me, Christine.
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When we last saw each other in snowy Denver, I came home and now we have snowy Lloyd Minster where I am.
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So it yeah, it feels similar, but we're appreciating the moisture.
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we were introduced to Holistic management.
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It was called holistic resource management at the time in the early 1980s.
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And, my family had a intensive livestock operation that really was not so much intended to be a family operation.
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There was employees, et cetera.
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But at the time, Lots of challenges going on.
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And there was a fellow that my dad was a colleague with on the cattle feeders, board of directors organization.
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And that fellow is Blake Holtman, from Southern Alberta.
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They have ship will feeders.
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Which his daughter, Andrea Strovisawa, now manages and operates.
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Anyway, at the time, Blake at his operation had started making some changes.
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He'd already met Alan Savory, and so every time that Dad and Blake got together at one of their meetings, and they were visiting, and Dad was very curious to learn more, and he was a continuous learner for sure.
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And finally, Blake said you got to go to a course yourself.
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I can't just keep repeating these things to you.
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So at that point in time similar challenges as we often find in agriculture, revenue prices were low expense costs were high and trying to manage all of that anyway.
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So at that time.
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Anyone who's listening who's been involved for quite some time will recall that the introductory courses were divided into two five day for courses, and one was called H.
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R.
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M.
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in practice, I believe, and that was all about the finances and the grazing.
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There was a separate course called Building the Effective Organization, all about the people five days long.
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Dad and some colleagues went to the Cattle and Finances, which were his passions big time, and then came home and said to My mom and myself and another gal that was working on the management team with us.
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Oh, you guys got to go.
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To the one all about people.
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And so we did for five days.
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And that was life altering or transformational.
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As note, somebody else that I will mention who has been becoming.
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Significant mentor for me in the human resource side of things is David Irvine, and he was at that course with us in Waterton so many years ago.
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Anyway, one of the pieces where it really resonated with me was I was also interested in personal growth and learning, and I was living in another center working for a livestock magazine, which I really enjoyed that job.
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But it seemed like anything I wanted to do in regards to leadership or personal growth and development, it Was always outside of my regular job, and certainly I encountered a lot of livestock producers in the course of that, and it was the same with them.
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Nobody was talking about the human resource.
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Talked a lot about cattle, grazing, feeding, some about finances and markets, but it wasn't about people.
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So when I came across an approach that included the human side of things, that was a game changer for me, Christine, and so came back and we, we did turn into a family operation and now now we're third generation and there's some littles floating around that will be fourth generation.
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We're not this longstanding been on the same family ranch for hundreds of years.
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My parents came from southern Saskatchewan came up to this area in the sixties, and we've had different operations that we've owned over time.
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Anyway, I will stop talking about that part of it, but that was the first introduction, and I was also very fortunate as the younger person or of the younger generation because my parents were very open minded to make change.
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The biggest thing that we did initially was set up an intensive grazing program.
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We fenced a lot.
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Interesting.
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So I want to go back to a comment and any of you watching this video on YouTube or on social media, I smiled when you shared that your father took the grazing and the financial, but then he delegated the social to you and your mom.
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Any insight why that seems to happen, because I find that the men feel comfortable with the numbers and the data and the grazing, but when it comes to the human part of it, the human resource management, they really feel hesitant, I guess is the right word.
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Can you share your insights?
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Interestingly enough, also, back then there was short courses that you could take two days in length off of each of those five day courses.
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And one of the ones off the, building the effective organization side of it was goal setting.
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There was another one called Families in business and team building.
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There was another one managing individual development.
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I'm having to go back into the memory reserves for
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doing great.
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facilitated by an amazing fellow who's no longer with us, but his name is Don Green, and he really played a pivotal role.
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And certainly in my in my learning, but, dad would actually say quite openly because it was a few years later.
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When they had the annual conference, which they used to do in Albuquerque every year and ahead of it that they would hold some short courses.
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And so then 1 year, mom and dad went back to revisit and take the goal setting course of it.
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And dad would often tell stories after that, about being a slow learner and realizing that is.
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The key piece of it, and that's where we really need to try to start, but I'm going to say try to because, as you'll have been in some of the conversations, where is the best place to enter this learning journey?
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And I think it's highly dependent on the individuals and just to get started.
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So I, hear what you're saying.
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And I certainly, as I focus a bit more on the succession piece of it, realizing that for the.
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Without stereotyping, but the older fellas in agriculture they weren't brought up or experienced, and many of us aren't to spend time focusing on the human side of things.
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They are really good at producing and that is what they do well.
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It's their, mission to provide, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Where women are more nurturing and.
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Homemakers not to stereotype at all,
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Yeah, there's some tendencies, I think, and with the genders, and that is we're wired differently, I believe, for the most part, and those characteristics definitely come out.
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Something else I'm going to share this will really tell you how long ago it was, but I remember, and I went to lots of different producer meetings in those years, and going to a holistic Management conference in Albuquerque, and they were focusing on Wolf Challenge and on much of the BLM land.
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They were having a lot of challenges around that, and they had a panel.
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actually included from all ends of the spectrum, belief and position wise, and that was the first time I'd ever participated in something where they actually invited the people that were on a different page, frankly, to come and share their thoughts and ideas.
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So that we could understand each other better.
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And I'd actually forgot about that now until we start visiting Christine.
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But that was really pivotal.
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I thought, holy cow a place where we are being true to the trying to create win.
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Relationships.
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The only way we can do that is if we start sitting down with those that we don't necessarily agree with and trying to understand things from their perspective.
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And the conference just really exemplified that.
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that's amazing.
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Yeah.
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I love it because it really is bringing in that concept of the whole, the W H O L E.
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We're all on different paths and different phases of our journey and to be able to get everybody to your point, a win to get everybody on a similar same page is so pivotal to, Implementing successful policies, implementing successful routines programs, all sorts of things.
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So yeah, that's amazing.
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I'm slightly envious that you have had all those experiences.
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Yeah, that also at that point in time, there was a movement, this will tell you how long ago it was, the slogan was Grazing free by 93 or cattle free, like when they were trying to get all the ruminants off the public lands by 1993.
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So it
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Wow.
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than 93 that this was going on.
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So how has holistic management, the framework, helped you in challenges that we get presented on a day to day basis?
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The succession, the familial delegation of responsibilities, how has that helped you
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I think one of the pieces.
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That has often been hard for me to really, really, Oh, I don't even really learn or assimilate if that's the right word.
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I'm not sure it is, but the recognition that it honestly is a journey.
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And I remember in the earlier years feeling like, Oh, my gosh, but we're not doing this.
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We're not doing that.
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Our goal is only our financial planning could be better.
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And again, I think that as a organization and a movement, we need to really be mindful of that and, accepting of everybody is at a different point.
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And where you enter.
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As I mentioned before, will make a difference.
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But your current set of situations, will circumstances will make a big difference, too.
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So certainly we've gone through lots of transitions.
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I think of thing that I can now reflect on that had a big impact.
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I've already mentioned my parents being very open minded and, Dad was very inclusive in decision making.
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And so when we would go through planning processes, it was predominantly my brother and I that took over but we were always included in all the conversations, be it about finances, debt, and we knew the people that were the resources for that, our bankers, our accountants, our lawyers.
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He took us to all the meetings before we were even formally, owners of our own company that were invested in the bigger group.
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So that was so helpful.
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And then sitting down and doing the projections in the planning and those were going through some pretty harsh times with up here.
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We had the drought of 0203 and BSE, which was just a complete double whammy.
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And when I think back the impact of that is it's far reaching when I start seeing what calf prices are these days and.
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kids roll their eyes at me, but it's like, Whoa, this is a never have I ever is how I've phrased some of our sales lately.
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Again wereally focused on the grazing point and, as I said, the land we were managing some of it had been in crop because we were growing feed.
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We pretty much seeded everything down to grass put lots of fences in and really worked hard at at becoming good graziers.
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But again, that has other impacts to mother nature and what's going on.
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Will have a lot to do with that.
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So try to use the financial piece of it.
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The gross profit analysis and the testing questions, I think, as far as the framework goes, was something that we just got better at all the time and trying to think about things about what is our weak link in this chain of production and, drilling down in that once we'd gotten to the point where we were.
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Growing a pretty decent amount of forage.
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Then what was it?
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It was more product conversion was the weak link, because how are we converting that to revenue at the end of the day?
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Yeah, that's currently my problem.
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I've, got a product weak link.
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Cause I have way more grass than I have livestock.
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So I've grown all this beautiful grass.
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But with cattle prices the way they are, I just I can't make them the numbers work.
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Going back to that example, something that we did that people used to shake their heads at, I'm sure.
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Lots of things we did.
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People Probably shook their heads at, but we not only have an owned livestock enterprise, we have a custom grazing enterprise as well.
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I will never say they're static, that we always have this many cows and we always run this many owned yearlings or Stockers, as you guys call them, and as well as custom, but going through the gross profit has been a helpful way for us to determine what numbers as well as the records that we keep from the grazing management.
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So we know how many grazing days we produce on average in a year.
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Is it going to be dry next year?
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Should we scale that back and, that's been helpful to all the records for animal days per acre that we get from our operation.
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I know that's been very important.
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I'm a relatively new grazer compared to you.
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I started this midlife career change and not having that data, because it was new land to me.
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So I was learning the land because I didn't have the history of what was done before and then not having The carrying capacity, what each pasture could, produce.
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The first couple of years was a struggle, but now that I have that data, it makes decisions and management so much easier
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Yeah, We had a good conversation at a field day that I was at not too long ago, and one of the starting points that we were using with people is if you were haying that, how many bales per acre would you get?
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how much do your bales weigh?
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Okay you just said pounds per acre, right?
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by
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if you consider that, a cow or a steer or a heifer eats two and a half to 3% Body weight dry matter right there.
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You can figure out a rough carrying capacity.
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And I think there's part of our challenge in holistic management is helping the segue to people that are just starting into
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course.
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who's saying, you know what?
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We get 80 animal days per acre off of this paddock.
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And that's one way that I found without going off on a tangent is because almost all cattle producers will have a sense of yeah, How many bales of hay they could produce off Something.
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sure.
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And I know we've talked about this, but as I coach and teach workshops with newer land stewards all the.
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Let's call it jargon we throw a lot at them and so to be able to go back and say, this is what I'm meaning when I say animal days per acre which goes to what you've just shared and, all of the other components.
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There is a lot of learning and I will be honest the first year I had a cheat sheet that I used to carry Because I'm slow, but I'll get there eventually but that cheat sheet really helps Sure
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we adapted how we would do our grazing back in the day.
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Actually, it's funny thinking about this because we had some binders and that we had in the pickups and we put the calendars in there and then the.
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then we also had pieces of notepaper that had the order we were going to go in paddocks so then we would have the grazing order figured out an estimated days from the grazing planning back in the day.
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I used to be quite detailed and I okay, we were in that paddock for.
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4.
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76 days and everybody like, Yeah, no, four and a half.
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That's good.
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We don't need to go into any further detail.
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We adapted the way we identify our animal units because we are switching back between yearlings and cow calf.
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And so we don't do it the same as everybody else with 1000 pound animal unit.
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We have a 700 pound yearling is an average animal unit.
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And then we can easily say, most pairs of our cows would be double that.
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So it's just a 2 to 1 ratio.
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So easy math.
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If we were running 100 cows on that grazing cell, we could probably get away with 200 yearlings.
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Of course, as the days is an important factor there, too.
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But if you're doing it the same growing season, those are just some of the adaptations we used over the years, and now we do lots.
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Just on our phones where we, have notes in there to say when we're moving the cattle and then put that into the spreadsheets.
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,I love that our colleague Brian Welberg has he shares he has his grazing chart on the bathroom door.
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So everybody can see what they're supposed to be doing.
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And he shares that he just puts one year over the other one so that you can flip through and look at the history of it all.
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So
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happened last year.
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Yeah,
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And certainly learning more and more all the time.
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The importance of recovery.
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That's such a changing piece.
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And as an educator, you know that everybody wants to know what recovery period they should use and always hesitant to say.
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And over time, when we've been, going through some dry years.
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We've extended it.
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So I was almost coming to the conclusion that initially we had too short of a recovery period.
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But this summer at the beginning of the season, we had really optimal rains, and it reminded me of yes, when the conditions are good in our country on pretty good grass.
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We can have a shorter recovery period, but it's not static.
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We can't say that every year plants will recover in X number of days.
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See, I don't even want to say a number.
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And it's very location specific, right?
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It's very environmental, how much rain, condition of the soil, how severe graze or not.
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So there's so many variables that affect that recovery.
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Yeah, And it's always, going through a drought, you probably will have to do more severe grazing than you would like, but we're lucky where we live, it's more non brittle, that it is pretty forgiving with some moisture.
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Yeah, I'm in East Texas.
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So I've got an average rainfall of about 50 inches a year, which is pretty consistent.
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So, yeah, so I have a little bit more grace.
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Yes,
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Yeah,
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percent you know, and learning that is one of the founding principles of holistic management.
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You know that Is different in different environment and conditions.
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And I think that's important to note that one as well.
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Yeah, so I've been on this property for four years and I bought it and it had previously just been hayed and there were some animals on here at one point, but it was continuous grazing and it had been cropland before it used to be cotton.
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But within the first two years.
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Of being on this property because I was rotating the animals into the respective.
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Pastures when I was allowing for that recovery, I tripled my carrying capacity within those two years just due to management.
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Soil conditions were still the same.
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The past management was still the same.
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But because I allowed for that recovery.
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I tripled it.
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It's amazing, right?
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And and I'm noticing here in East Texas, July and August typically is pretty dry, and then we have rainfall in September.
00:23:06.417 --> 00:23:09.087
So we really have two growing season.
00:23:09.087 --> 00:23:12.968
Obviously, the springtime is, a much longer growing season.
00:23:13.428 --> 00:23:32.053
But I've noticed that despite the small drought period, we've My recovery times I'm having to shorten because my ecosystem functions are improving because of the management, because density recovery, all of these different tools that we have available to us.
00:23:32.942 --> 00:23:37.712
So it's when people ask me for a recipe, I said, I can't give you a recipe.
00:23:38.212 --> 00:23:41.482
The answer you're going to get from us is it depends.
00:23:43.032 --> 00:23:44.192
Yes, for sure.
00:23:44.462 --> 00:23:50.502
And certainly one of the things that, I was sharing With our son.
00:23:50.502 --> 00:24:05.383
The other day is just the fact that we have a lot of paddocks gives us some flexibility because even when then it got really dry and we were short, but there's still there's some outlying paddocks that we hadn't even bothered going into.
00:24:05.502 --> 00:24:19.333
They've got heaps of growth or just those kind of favorable unintended consequences from having a lot of paddocks in, a more non brittle environment, that just really can help a lot.
00:24:19.583 --> 00:24:20.482
Really can help.
00:24:22.482 --> 00:24:35.752
Brittleness is based on the average annual precipitation of the, rainfall and the frequency I, call myself between a five or six on a scale of one to 10, where would you put yourself at?
00:24:35.938 --> 00:24:38.307
we'd be slightly more brittle than you
00:24:38.423 --> 00:24:38.913
Okay.
00:24:40.508 --> 00:24:52.798
Yeah, mostly because we don't get quite as much rainfall as you and probably when we started this, I would have said the same because we used to have more consistent rainfall than we do now.
00:24:52.798 --> 00:24:53.938
It seems so,
00:24:56.393 --> 00:24:59.282
So you're seeing less rainfall because of.
00:24:59.803 --> 00:25:02.012
Ecosystem functions being ineffective.
00:25:02.093 --> 00:25:02.393
Yeah.
00:25:02.442 --> 00:25:03.333
Oh, more erratic.
00:25:03.383 --> 00:25:03.833
Okay.
00:25:03.938 --> 00:25:04.317
Yeah.
00:25:04.413 --> 00:25:08.432
All our animals are used to a single electric wire.
00:25:08.432 --> 00:25:16.323
So people really did think in the early days when we had these single wires everywhere, like what on earth were we thinking?
00:25:16.553 --> 00:25:20.682
And we still do put because of the social weak link.
00:25:21.028 --> 00:25:30.667
Perimeter fences are a little bit more robust than that, but they don't need to be, in my opinion, once the animals are used to it and trained to it.
00:25:30.667 --> 00:25:33.988
And we have a different set of yearlings come in every year.
00:25:34.478 --> 00:25:43.567
And we work with a feed yard that we try to get them to train them to the electric fence so that they're familiar with it when they come to our place.
00:25:43.958 --> 00:25:45.417
Oh, that's fabulous.
00:25:45.448 --> 00:25:47.198
That's a great bonus.
00:25:48.607 --> 00:25:53.968
So how long does it take them to get used to the electrical fence, the yearlings?
00:25:54.307 --> 00:25:54.988
three days.
00:25:55.397 --> 00:25:55.827
Okay.
00:25:56.288 --> 00:25:59.968
And how do you know when they've learned the lesson to stay away from that fence?
00:26:00.748 --> 00:26:02.538
because nobody ever touches it.
00:26:02.538 --> 00:26:10.792
Like in the Hours, somebody will go up to it, touch it, everybody jumps back and yeah, pretty soon they don't touch it at all.
00:26:11.188 --> 00:26:15.688
Because I'm starting to bring in stockers to meet my direct to consumer beef demand.
00:26:16.097 --> 00:26:29.268
So I have a training paddock that I have that I put them in and with time I'm noticing that when they stay about a foot away from the wire, then they're ready to go out to the pasture.
00:26:29.528 --> 00:26:29.907
yeah.
00:26:30.157 --> 00:26:36.458
You could probably do a test and just stick a bit of hay, if you had a small square bale, just under the wire.
00:26:36.458 --> 00:26:37.768
And if they don't even try,
00:26:37.847 --> 00:26:38.218
Yeah.
00:26:38.317 --> 00:26:50.208
Usually because that paddock isn't used very often except for training purposes so that it's always very lushful and when they see that grass, but they stay away it's cool.
00:26:51.623 --> 00:26:57.573
We, started working with, Livestock handling and worked a fair bit with Bud Williams.
00:26:57.603 --> 00:27:08.232
We actually met him at one of those Albuquerque holistic management conferences, and he came up to this area and then relocated and the feed yard that I was saying.
00:27:08.232 --> 00:27:09.932
We work with VT feeders.
00:27:10.093 --> 00:27:12.663
He worked there for many years.
00:27:12.992 --> 00:27:19.432
And that's where Dawn Hnatow, who is also a very well known livestock handler.
00:27:19.623 --> 00:27:21.373
She trained under Bud.
00:27:21.663 --> 00:27:24.492
And so she's from my neck of the woods.
00:27:24.492 --> 00:27:31.288
And we're planning a workshop down in Texas in Weatherford, so excited about that.
00:27:31.557 --> 00:27:38.307
And, we're also going to have Cooper Hibbard, who's going to be talking some more about the livestock and the grazing.
00:27:38.698 --> 00:27:50.268
Dawn's going to be talking about the livestock handling, and I'm going to be talking probably more from the holistic management side about the people and financial side of things.
00:27:50.778 --> 00:27:51.307
Fabulous.
00:27:51.307 --> 00:27:51.538
Yes.
00:27:51.538 --> 00:27:57.627
And I'll make sure and put that on the episode show notes so that if people want to come join us.
00:27:57.708 --> 00:27:58.087
And
00:27:58.127 --> 00:27:58.508
Yeah.
00:27:58.758 --> 00:28:02.817
getting the details, as I mentioned, you put into place, and I'll share that with you.
00:28:03.887 --> 00:28:04.847
Yeah, shortly.
00:28:05.347 --> 00:28:05.667
Yeah.
00:28:05.708 --> 00:28:10.877
I'm planning on being there because I wouldn't miss learning from you because we're all learning,
00:28:11.018 --> 00:28:11.307
good.
00:28:11.407 --> 00:28:12.718
We all learn from each other.
00:28:12.718 --> 00:28:14.688
We never have this mastered, right?
00:28:14.907 --> 00:28:16.218
This is a journey.
00:28:17.397 --> 00:28:19.157
There's always something new to learn.
00:28:19.897 --> 00:28:20.768
There totally is.
00:28:20.778 --> 00:28:21.087
Yeah,
00:28:23.008 --> 00:28:50.428
I'd like to steer the conversation a little bit towards more the people because I know from our conversations before that you're very involved in succession and helping families the next generation take over and you shared a little bit of your story about how your father was so open minded, but to talk more about the people side, because I think that's one of the biggest hurdles we all encounter.
00:28:51.357 --> 00:28:53.867
I'll share that As a single operator.
00:28:53.867 --> 00:28:55.758
I'm running this place by myself.
00:28:57.958 --> 00:29:22.548
Even though it's just myself, the people portion of that my mindset, my thought process, my condition tendencies, whatever it was, keeping me from being more profitable, more successful, more adaptive than I could have been all that to say, you don't have to be part of a management team to encounter people issues.
00:29:22.548 --> 00:29:25.978
It could be your own self that is blocking you too.
00:29:26.038 --> 00:29:26.417
Yeah.
00:29:26.468 --> 00:29:26.788
Yeah.
00:29:27.057 --> 00:29:44.157
And certainly in the the earlier learnings of the foundations of holistic management, the idea of paradigms and, or you can call that a perception and really starting to explore what paradigms am I operating under, and there's nothing wrong with them.
00:29:44.157 --> 00:29:45.028
We all have them.
00:29:45.327 --> 00:29:49.468
But are there some that are limiting and no longer serving us?
00:29:49.758 --> 00:30:07.817
And I think those exercises as the learning process to sit down and say what are some of the paradigms that I'm operating under that we just talked about electric fence a paradigm that everything has to be in a five wire tight as a guitar string, barbed wire fence.
00:30:08.817 --> 00:30:11.407
In some situations, that'll be ideal, right?
00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:26.813
But other times, it might not be so and I think we're constantly, evolving with that and even challenging some of the paradigms that we now have as holistic managers over the years, are those still serving as well?
00:30:26.813 --> 00:30:29.393
I think we should be challenging ourselves on that.
00:30:29.613 --> 00:30:47.637
It's very easy to point the finger at other people who have limiting beliefs or paradigms, but you're right, shining it back on oneself And trying to even when I put that example about going through BSE and the drought certain paradigms came up,
00:30:48.057 --> 00:30:48.458
Sure.
00:30:49.367 --> 00:31:02.502
that I have to continually remind myself another gal that does a lot of succession work, not necessarily in the holistic management field, but she's Canadian, Elaine Fraze.
00:31:02.913 --> 00:31:08.113
And she has a good phrase that is,'that was then, this is now'.
00:31:08.462 --> 00:31:18.182
And sure there might be some similarities, but Each year is a new set of circumstances as you well know.
00:31:18.182 --> 00:31:29.732
And I think that's something that we need to remind our people about too, to be gentle with themselves and offer some grace because some of your learnings might not be applicable anymore.
00:31:30.002 --> 00:31:37.762
And the idea of sitting down, getting clear on your values and what's really important to you.
00:31:38.972 --> 00:31:55.032
And then also spending time to envision what sort of operation and life do you really want that kind of goes outside of certainly back in the day that was way outside of what you would take it at ag production workshop.
00:31:55.423 --> 00:31:58.113
And all that personal development work as well.
00:31:58.123 --> 00:32:03.113
So much of Stephen Covey's teachings we follow.
00:32:03.113 --> 00:32:06.022
I already talked about the win That one comes from him.
00:32:06.022 --> 00:32:12.502
Sharpen the saw does the time management quadrants is another Stephen Covey principle.
00:32:12.512 --> 00:32:15.712
So I think all of those continuous learning, really.
00:32:16.813 --> 00:32:25.792
Can be applied and those kind of conversations doesn't matter what sort of production model you're in but to have your team and or even yourself.
00:32:25.792 --> 00:32:26.932
It starts with yourself.
00:32:27.002 --> 00:32:43.512
What kind of life do you want to create for you and then coming together with the different layers or the other people that are in your whole under management and To see if there is some commonality and can we all be on the same page?
00:32:43.992 --> 00:32:47.813
Sometimes we won't be and that's okay too because maybe if you can.
00:32:49.018 --> 00:32:59.097
Reach that outcome through some discovery and personal reflections, then you can figure out ways to be more independent as opposed to interdependent.
00:32:59.637 --> 00:33:12.218
I often say,"just because we're related doesn't mean we have to work together" but maybe we can do it in a creative and I, I really give a lot of kudos to the younger generation because they do think more outside the box there.
00:33:12.732 --> 00:33:25.393
Creativity on organizational structure and business relationships I think is something that we can really look to the future of what these operations should and could look like.
00:33:26.008 --> 00:33:26.438
Yeah.
00:33:26.728 --> 00:33:37.807
I know that I always get a lot of good feedback when I'm teaching and coaching, when I share that, our operations and our goals.
00:33:38.167 --> 00:33:42.938
Are not going to look the same in 10 years than they are now, right?
00:33:44.448 --> 00:33:52.307
Because we get older because we get more clarity because we're adapting to financial political Mother Nature.
00:33:53.067 --> 00:33:55.807
I've been doing this for 12 years now.
00:33:56.057 --> 00:34:00.188
My operation now doesn't look anything like it did 12 years ago.
00:34:00.667 --> 00:34:05.657
And it doesn't look anything like it did four years ago when I moved onto this property.
00:34:06.508 --> 00:34:17.557
And one of the things that I've recognized myself and I share this when I'm, helping people go through the decision testing questions is that last question: the Gut check.
00:34:18.268 --> 00:34:28.467
Sometimes you're testing an action or decision and, mostly passes, and you get to that gut check and it just doesn't, something just doesn't sit right.
00:34:28.797 --> 00:34:34.197
A lot of times I find it's because there's a value embedded there that I hadn't recognized.
00:34:34.858 --> 00:34:41.538
That I need to go back and update my holistic goal to say, this is now important to me.
00:34:41.777 --> 00:34:45.728
This is now, something that I need to take more consideration of.
00:34:46.652 --> 00:34:47.063
Yeah.
00:34:47.163 --> 00:34:47.512
Yeah.
00:34:47.782 --> 00:34:51.302
And so then along with that when we're trying to create.
00:34:52.063 --> 00:35:01.813
These visions and statement of purpose, if you will, but there needs to be, good communication.
00:35:02.083 --> 00:35:05.733
And the reality is that most of us are quite poor at that.
00:35:06.072 --> 00:35:11.068
And also knowing and hopefully giving some skills and.
00:35:11.228 --> 00:35:19.007
Tools and strategies that bit by bit people can improve their communication skills in their operation.
00:35:20.628 --> 00:35:38.467
David Irvine, the mentor that I referenced he talks about it's like a muscle and we just need to make a practice of getting better at it, whether it's having regular meetings or whatever the strategies are listening exercises and, that type of thing.
00:35:38.478 --> 00:35:49.793
Because, I say this often, but, logically, I know that everybody has a different perspective.
00:35:51.182 --> 00:35:57.163
it's emotionally, it's really hard for me to sometimes get that.
00:35:57.342 --> 00:36:00.043
I think this is how I'm seeing something.
00:36:00.043 --> 00:36:02.052
It's so obvious to me.
00:36:02.362 --> 00:36:04.443
Isn't it obvious to you, Christine?
00:36:05.242 --> 00:36:06.373
And you will say.
00:36:06.708 --> 00:36:07.137
No,
00:36:07.177 --> 00:36:07.617
No.
00:36:07.708 --> 00:36:09.077
obvious to me at all.
00:36:09.237 --> 00:36:19.788
This is how I see it and taking the time to really try to figure out and giving people the opportunity to say how they're seeing things for sure.
00:36:20.367 --> 00:36:25.777
So you've been teaching and coaching many more years than I have.
00:36:26.038 --> 00:36:32.608
So I'm going to defer to your wisdom with respect to communications and you've worked with many families.
00:36:32.657 --> 00:36:37.188
We don't typically have a standard recommendation because we're very adaptive, right?
00:36:37.228 --> 00:36:44.237
And everything, everybody has different values, what do you tend to suggest to help families improve that communication?
00:36:44.237 --> 00:36:45.108
Is it meetings?
00:36:45.108 --> 00:36:47.538
Is it personal development?
00:36:47.867 --> 00:36:49.757
What, are your typical suggestions?
00:36:49.882 --> 00:36:56.882
I think, yeah, certainly a regular how do we communicate and even assess that and see what everybody thinks?
00:36:57.103 --> 00:37:07.597
Okay so if we're saying in our goal or context that we want to have open, honest communication, what does that look like?
00:37:07.987 --> 00:37:09.277
Have that conversation.
00:37:09.438 --> 00:37:10.097
Okay.
00:37:10.688 --> 00:37:14.708
What systems or behaviors do we need to have?
00:37:14.947 --> 00:37:17.858
So linking it back to that three part goal.
00:37:18.088 --> 00:37:18.387
Okay.
00:37:18.568 --> 00:37:25.628
One of them is regular meetings, everybody can have a personal learning plan.
00:37:25.898 --> 00:37:33.157
Or being intentional about, especially in our ag operations where we are the winter time's great.
00:37:33.387 --> 00:37:50.197
Everybody take turns and go get off the ranch or the farm and go to a conference and learn something so some of those different kind of things maybe having operating agreements where you're defining roles and responsibilities and expectations.
00:37:50.498 --> 00:37:53.507
Because again, that can be a disconnect for sure.
00:37:53.737 --> 00:38:00.978
And sometimes even those basic things to improve communication, won't always help.
00:38:01.228 --> 00:38:05.958
Maybe there's a underlying logjam that needs some attention.
00:38:06.228 --> 00:38:21.503
And if those are serious Personal issues sometimes trying to help determine a way to address that, whereas still continuing to run the operation can be very challenging.
00:38:21.503 --> 00:38:37.282
We talk about this with Simon Sinek and his Golden Circle and the Art of Why?, and really talking about why are we doing this, because if we can keep coming back to that, then the how and the what can be easier, right?
00:38:37.543 --> 00:38:47.322
And really understanding each other working, to understand each other better I think is an important component of that.
00:38:48.188 --> 00:38:50.197
Yeah, the power of the five whys.
00:38:50.648 --> 00:39:04.398
I learned while I was still doing my training to become an educator with Holistic Management International, I was given the opportunity to help teach the foundations course, the foundations of holistic management to.
00:39:04.893 --> 00:39:11.733
a group of, underserved African Americans in, Arkansas.
00:39:12.773 --> 00:39:16.603
And they were new agrarians that were going through an apprenticeship.
00:39:17.052 --> 00:39:20.663
And so we were talking about formulating the holistic goal.
00:39:20.943 --> 00:39:24.543
And I use Elizabeth Mark's value worksheet.
00:39:25.112 --> 00:39:41.672
With the list of the values and like 50 different value words and you pick the ones that most resonate to you and then you rank them and two of these young men picked power as their top value.
00:39:42.362 --> 00:39:52.338
And in my training I was asked to start using the five Why's, so I asked these two gentlemen why is power important to you?
00:39:52.557 --> 00:39:53.768
And I kept asking why.
00:39:53.987 --> 00:40:06.807
And for both of these gentlemen, the reason they picked power was because their heart was to help, support others to improve their quality of life.
00:40:06.838 --> 00:40:19.007
They felt that if they had the power, they would have then the means to be able to help those that can't help themselves, that don't have the privileges, don't have the opportunities, don't have the funding.
00:40:19.358 --> 00:40:22.737
So I will never forget the power of the five Why's now.
00:40:22.822 --> 00:40:23.413
Yes.
00:40:23.847 --> 00:40:35.057
Because, Making decisions with respect to power versus making decisions to what I want to help my, community, improve themselves is completely different.
00:40:36.577 --> 00:40:37.297
For sure.
00:40:37.367 --> 00:40:41.257
And developing that statement of purpose of why are we really doing this?
00:40:41.257 --> 00:40:41.677
What are we
00:40:41.878 --> 00:40:42.518
Exactly.
00:40:43.038 --> 00:40:43.697
Exactly.
00:40:44.027 --> 00:40:51.688
And that again I'm glad it's more commonplace now, but traditionally, that is not a question.
00:40:52.532 --> 00:40:57.572
farmer ranch family or team would sit and talk about around the kitchen table.
00:40:58.143 --> 00:40:58.503
no.
00:40:59.123 --> 00:41:01.882
We are getting close to our time together.
00:41:01.963 --> 00:41:12.003
Anything that you wanted to share that I haven't asked you that, you're passionate about that, you wake up every morning saying, this is what I want to be doing today.
00:41:14.612 --> 00:41:27.012
I think that, just the learning and then continuous learning that we encourage and engage in holistic management.
00:41:28.413 --> 00:41:32.313
I mean in the growing season working with.
00:41:33.362 --> 00:41:37.833
grazing Animals and particularly cattle in our situation.
00:41:38.452 --> 00:41:45.023
It's just something that I am really passionate about.
00:41:45.242 --> 00:41:52.092
But then also part of, our holistic goal is to have a sustainable, viable.
00:41:52.342 --> 00:41:54.963
operation, but it's for me.
00:41:54.972 --> 00:42:15.007
It's not only for us and our family, but to be able to take our learnings and wins and losses and help others in the ag community and beyond apply some of what works for them that they can, improve their operations.
00:42:15.038 --> 00:42:25.878
Thriving is a word I like these days, and I think it connects a bit with our, connection with nature and those processes that we talk about.
00:42:25.878 --> 00:42:31.657
And helping their where it goes beyond to the community at large, not just your own.
00:42:31.918 --> 00:42:33.818
That's also somewhat of an age thing.
00:42:33.818 --> 00:42:42.057
I think I've noticed that when we're younger and Trying to make sense and figure out who we are.
00:42:42.057 --> 00:42:53.898
It might be a little bit more siloed, if you will, until you get to a point where you're have partners and children and families that then your outlook becomes more expansive.
00:42:55.052 --> 00:42:57.322
So that leads me to a question.
00:42:58.733 --> 00:42:59.922
Because of what you said.
00:43:01.003 --> 00:43:17.762
Do you think the holistic management framework appeals to people who have personalities, who have character traits that acknowledge that change is needed.
00:43:18.083 --> 00:43:20.432
There's some people that really like to learn.
00:43:21.503 --> 00:43:24.572
They like challenges and they like to conquer challenges.
00:43:24.572 --> 00:43:27.733
And so by this they're constantly learning.
00:43:27.963 --> 00:43:33.543
But I know I've encountered some people that they're quite happy with the tried and true.
00:43:33.543 --> 00:43:37.742
And they're like, if nothing ever changed, I would be very happy.
00:43:38.663 --> 00:43:39.672
Any thoughts on that?
00:43:41.387 --> 00:43:52.217
I think that, from my learnings and the amazing people I've got to meet such as yourself in this community, If they're okay and doing well where they are, that's great for them.
00:43:53.108 --> 00:44:05.668
And it's easy with the way the biases work where you can see how somebody else could improve their lot in life, so to speak with an outside lens, but.
00:44:06.498 --> 00:44:08.047
Who am I to say that, right?
00:44:08.108 --> 00:44:15.907
So that welcoming people in whatever point in the journey they're at to make some new discoveries and learn.
00:44:16.557 --> 00:44:18.047
I do like you have that.
00:44:18.713 --> 00:44:30.262
core For belief that everybody is destined to grow and develop, just like all the, creatures in mother nature, right?
00:44:30.543 --> 00:44:37.563
I feel that's part of the process but I acknowledge that we do it at different rates and different speeds and different ways.
00:44:39.032 --> 00:44:47.163
If some people are less inclined to be wanting to take big steps, something that I often.
00:44:47.523 --> 00:45:04.112
We think about and we talk about to in our educators circles is in this idea of change management, is it better to encourage what's more effective, like sweeping 180 degree changes or incremental bit by bit small steps.
00:45:04.452 --> 00:45:08.253
And I think, as you said earlier, the answer to that is it depends.
00:45:08.858 --> 00:45:14.822
Know, How we embark and adapt to change will not be the same in every situation.
00:45:15.378 --> 00:45:22.458
Yeah, it reminds me of a workshop that I helped facilitate actually with Wayne Knight, our executive director.
00:45:23.132 --> 00:45:44.172
In Central Texas, and we had a one day workshop, and this gentleman from South Texas came in, and he was probably 75, 76, very healthy, cowboy, and when we started and we had introductions, we had everybody answer the question, why are you here?
00:45:44.702 --> 00:45:49.793
And he goes, I have been doing the same thing for the last, 50 years.
00:45:51.268 --> 00:45:54.338
But I've just found out that what I'm doing is.
00:45:54.987 --> 00:45:59.847
Not helping my granddaughter who has just been diagnosed with this sickness.
00:46:00.918 --> 00:46:04.628
So I am here to learn how I can do things differently.
00:46:04.737 --> 00:46:11.588
So I'm not harming my granddaughter and it gets me emotional every time I share that.
00:46:11.637 --> 00:46:14.307
can completely understand that for sure.
00:46:14.387 --> 00:46:15.228
For sure.
00:46:15.297 --> 00:46:18.688
And, yeah, that, that's so true.
00:46:18.708 --> 00:46:25.887
And so his reason for change was, at his heart.
00:46:26.268 --> 00:46:26.788
Yes.
00:46:26.838 --> 00:46:33.467
And I know that was a loaded question, but it does strike me as interesting.
00:46:33.507 --> 00:46:36.128
I've been here four years in my previous operation.
00:46:36.128 --> 00:46:41.838
I was there for quite a number of years, and I was doing things differently, and they look at me weird.
00:46:41.838 --> 00:46:48.217
And to your point I'm putting up poly wire and moving these animals every day.
00:46:48.797 --> 00:46:54.248
But when we have that drought period in July and August, I'm still green, right?
00:46:54.347 --> 00:46:57.057
Grass is still growing, and they're out feeding.
00:46:57.057 --> 00:47:09.498
hay, And I know we've shared in our, educator forum that why is it that our neighbors who see this day in, day out, don't come over and say, tell me how you're doing this.
00:47:11.398 --> 00:47:11.867
Yeah.
00:47:12.818 --> 00:47:14.577
There's a lot of reasons for that.
00:47:14.577 --> 00:47:23.188
I think that, but, again, the uniqueness of the situation to be sure.
00:47:24.467 --> 00:47:25.677
They have to be at the right place.
00:47:25.728 --> 00:47:48.693
organization are getting in a movement, if you will, are getting better at Being more expansive or accepting of, because that's the way that we're going to move the needle more is, inviting more people in.
00:47:48.913 --> 00:47:55.393
It also makes me think Simon Sinek has the Bell Curve Early adapters and innovators.
00:47:55.393 --> 00:47:56.862
I think I've got that.
00:47:57.422 --> 00:48:07.103
I might have those, maybe those are reversed, and it feels like for the longest time in holistic management, we were down here, but I think we're starting to go up here.
00:48:07.342 --> 00:48:10.063
Early majority is what that first part of the
00:48:10.172 --> 00:48:10.612
Yes.
00:48:10.733 --> 00:48:11.182
is.
00:48:11.612 --> 00:48:12.012
Yeah.
00:48:12.682 --> 00:48:14.668
Certainly Different things.
00:48:14.668 --> 00:48:24.557
I was going to mention this earlier that a big aha for us when we first got started was to look at the soil surface and the amount of bare ground.
00:48:24.947 --> 00:48:25.938
That was huge.
00:48:26.168 --> 00:48:35.972
Because before we'd always looked out across pastures and judge the condition of the cattle as much as anything.
00:48:36.313 --> 00:48:53.273
And so now so many years later to see this whole, discussion and inquiry into below ground and soil health and all the myriad of interrelationships there.
00:48:53.273 --> 00:48:55.882
I think that that's been another big step.
00:48:55.963 --> 00:48:56.833
I'm old enough now.
00:48:56.842 --> 00:49:04.612
I've been at this long enough that when I look back and see some of the what were some of the big changes that's certainly going to be another one.
00:49:04.612 --> 00:49:05.163
I think.
00:49:06.682 --> 00:49:06.972
Yeah.
00:49:07.353 --> 00:49:07.722
No.
00:49:08.132 --> 00:49:20.603
And I know at least in, in my area, my region, we have a whole new set of land stewards, landowners that COVID food supply issues, health issues.
00:49:21.373 --> 00:49:37.163
They've left city, they bought land, and they're trying to figure out how to be more self sufficient and be more sustainable so they're, already coming in with that paradigm shift, right?
00:49:38.943 --> 00:49:43.293
Which, which definitely it facilitates the change.
00:49:44.112 --> 00:49:46.382
Yeah, 100 percent 100%.
00:49:46.393 --> 00:49:46.793
Yeah.
00:49:47.632 --> 00:49:48.112
Perfect.
00:49:48.313 --> 00:49:55.552
Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom with me and sharing it in this episode.
00:49:55.552 --> 00:49:56.992
I appreciate you so much.
00:49:57.972 --> 00:50:00.152
Oh thank you for the opportunity.
00:50:00.193 --> 00:50:12.773
And I know it's not as good as when we have in person conversations, but this zoom platforms getting Or the other virtual platforms is getting pretty darn good to have engagement.
00:50:12.802 --> 00:50:18.663
And I mean that as we talk about how do we learn more and help people learn more about holistic management?
00:50:18.842 --> 00:50:24.753
Nothing beats boots on the ground face to face, but that's not always realistic.
00:50:25.842 --> 00:50:29.873
Incorporating this kind of models certainly helps
00:50:31.992 --> 00:50:39.193
If we didn't have zoom, then I'd have to invite you to Texas where it's what we decided it was 25 degrees Celsius here.
00:50:39.452 --> 00:50:40.152
And it's,
00:50:40.603 --> 00:50:43.302
minus degrees here.
00:50:43.322 --> 00:50:43.992
Yes.
00:50:44.463 --> 00:50:45.112
Yes.
00:50:45.842 --> 00:50:48.023
but I appreciate your time, Kelly.
00:50:49.023 --> 00:50:50.257
Thanks so much, Christine.
00:50:51.023 --> 00:50:54.742
Thanks for listening to Regenerative Agriculture, Thriving as a Modern Rancher.
00:50:55.083 --> 00:51:00.143
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, share with fellow ranchers, and leave a review.
00:51:00.443 --> 00:51:03.922
Together we can regenerate our lands, our profits, and our lives.
00:51:04.182 --> 00:51:06.123
Until next time, keep thriving.
00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:01.360
Kelly.
00:00:01.370 --> 00:00:03.319
Thank you so much for joining us.
00:00:03.870 --> 00:00:06.410
For this recording episode of the podcast.
00:00:06.440 --> 00:00:11.630
I'm so excited to have you in here to share your journey with holistic management.
00:00:12.009 --> 00:00:16.910
I'd like to start off with asking you to introduce yourself and embedded in there.
00:00:16.910 --> 00:00:23.460
If you would also share how you were introduced to holistic management and and we'll go from there.
00:00:24.704 --> 00:00:25.164
Okay.
00:00:25.164 --> 00:00:26.135
That sounds great.
00:00:26.144 --> 00:00:28.315
Thanks so much for having me, Christine.
00:00:29.315 --> 00:00:36.445
When we last saw each other in snowy Denver, I came home and now we have snowy Lloyd Minster where I am.
00:00:36.524 --> 00:00:41.265
So it yeah, it feels similar, but we're appreciating the moisture.
00:00:42.405 --> 00:00:47.174
we were introduced to Holistic management.
00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:54.094
It was called holistic resource management at the time in the early 1980s.
00:00:54.515 --> 00:01:05.855
And, my family had a intensive livestock operation that really was not so much intended to be a family operation.
00:01:05.864 --> 00:01:08.754
There was employees, et cetera.
00:01:09.045 --> 00:01:13.239
But at the time, Lots of challenges going on.
00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:23.319
And there was a fellow that my dad was a colleague with on the cattle feeders, board of directors organization.
00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:28.079
And that fellow is Blake Holtman, from Southern Alberta.
00:01:28.090 --> 00:01:30.549
They have ship will feeders.
00:01:30.954 --> 00:01:36.355
Which his daughter, Andrea Strovisawa, now manages and operates.
00:01:36.375 --> 00:01:42.185
Anyway, at the time, Blake at his operation had started making some changes.
00:01:42.424 --> 00:01:56.805
He'd already met Alan Savory, and so every time that Dad and Blake got together at one of their meetings, and they were visiting, and Dad was very curious to learn more, and he was a continuous learner for sure.
00:01:57.114 --> 00:02:00.799
And finally, Blake said you got to go to a course yourself.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.959
I can't just keep repeating these things to you.
00:02:03.959 --> 00:02:15.909
So at that point in time similar challenges as we often find in agriculture, revenue prices were low expense costs were high and trying to manage all of that anyway.
00:02:15.939 --> 00:02:17.930
So at that time.
00:02:18.610 --> 00:02:36.360
Anyone who's listening who's been involved for quite some time will recall that the introductory courses were divided into two five day for courses, and one was called H.
00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:36.590
R.
00:02:36.590 --> 00:02:36.849
M.
00:02:36.849 --> 00:02:44.344
in practice, I believe, and that was all about the finances and the grazing.
00:02:44.824 --> 00:02:51.525
There was a separate course called Building the Effective Organization, all about the people five days long.
00:02:51.985 --> 00:03:07.745
Dad and some colleagues went to the Cattle and Finances, which were his passions big time, and then came home and said to My mom and myself and another gal that was working on the management team with us.
00:03:07.764 --> 00:03:09.224
Oh, you guys got to go.
00:03:09.224 --> 00:03:12.034
To the one all about people.
00:03:12.245 --> 00:03:15.844
And so we did for five days.
00:03:15.854 --> 00:03:19.745
And that was life altering or transformational.
00:03:20.895 --> 00:03:24.625
As note, somebody else that I will mention who has been becoming.
00:03:24.914 --> 00:03:35.344
Significant mentor for me in the human resource side of things is David Irvine, and he was at that course with us in Waterton so many years ago.
00:03:36.444 --> 00:03:53.514
Anyway, one of the pieces where it really resonated with me was I was also interested in personal growth and learning, and I was living in another center working for a livestock magazine, which I really enjoyed that job.
00:03:53.794 --> 00:04:11.069
But it seemed like anything I wanted to do in regards to leadership or personal growth and development, it Was always outside of my regular job, and certainly I encountered a lot of livestock producers in the course of that, and it was the same with them.
00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:13.500
Nobody was talking about the human resource.
00:04:13.770 --> 00:04:21.699
Talked a lot about cattle, grazing, feeding, some about finances and markets, but it wasn't about people.
00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:46.060
So when I came across an approach that included the human side of things, that was a game changer for me, Christine, and so came back and we, we did turn into a family operation and now now we're third generation and there's some littles floating around that will be fourth generation.
00:04:46.350 --> 00:04:51.170
We're not this longstanding been on the same family ranch for hundreds of years.
00:04:51.620 --> 00:05:01.160
My parents came from southern Saskatchewan came up to this area in the sixties, and we've had different operations that we've owned over time.
00:05:02.129 --> 00:05:18.800
Anyway, I will stop talking about that part of it, but that was the first introduction, and I was also very fortunate as the younger person or of the younger generation because my parents were very open minded to make change.
00:05:19.050 --> 00:05:25.319
The biggest thing that we did initially was set up an intensive grazing program.
00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:27.579
We fenced a lot.
00:05:28.944 --> 00:05:29.584
Interesting.
00:05:29.754 --> 00:05:45.365
So I want to go back to a comment and any of you watching this video on YouTube or on social media, I smiled when you shared that your father took the grazing and the financial, but then he delegated the social to you and your mom.
00:05:46.660 --> 00:06:06.540
Any insight why that seems to happen, because I find that the men feel comfortable with the numbers and the data and the grazing, but when it comes to the human part of it, the human resource management, they really feel hesitant, I guess is the right word.
00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:08.430
Can you share your insights?
00:06:09.574 --> 00:06:22.884
Interestingly enough, also, back then there was short courses that you could take two days in length off of each of those five day courses.
00:06:23.194 --> 00:06:30.904
And one of the ones off the, building the effective organization side of it was goal setting.
00:06:31.384 --> 00:06:36.500
There was another one called Families in business and team building.
00:06:36.779 --> 00:06:39.589
There was another one managing individual development.
00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:42.170
I'm having to go back into the memory reserves for
00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:43.240
doing great.
00:06:43.339 --> 00:06:52.009
facilitated by an amazing fellow who's no longer with us, but his name is Don Green, and he really played a pivotal role.
00:06:52.009 --> 00:07:01.750
And certainly in my in my learning, but, dad would actually say quite openly because it was a few years later.
00:07:02.649 --> 00:07:09.959
When they had the annual conference, which they used to do in Albuquerque every year and ahead of it that they would hold some short courses.
00:07:10.230 --> 00:07:15.790
And so then 1 year, mom and dad went back to revisit and take the goal setting course of it.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:22.930
And dad would often tell stories after that, about being a slow learner and realizing that is.
00:07:23.415 --> 00:07:35.055
The key piece of it, and that's where we really need to try to start, but I'm going to say try to because, as you'll have been in some of the conversations, where is the best place to enter this learning journey?
00:07:35.365 --> 00:07:40.175
And I think it's highly dependent on the individuals and just to get started.
00:07:40.394 --> 00:07:42.355
So I, hear what you're saying.
00:07:42.675 --> 00:07:49.875
And I certainly, as I focus a bit more on the succession piece of it, realizing that for the.
00:07:50.764 --> 00:08:04.555
Without stereotyping, but the older fellas in agriculture they weren't brought up or experienced, and many of us aren't to spend time focusing on the human side of things.
00:08:04.875 --> 00:08:09.954
They are really good at producing and that is what they do well.
00:08:10.699 --> 00:08:12.860
It's their, mission to provide, right?
00:08:13.990 --> 00:08:14.319
Yeah.
00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:15.129
Yeah.
00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:15.779
Yeah.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.839
Where women are more nurturing and.
00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:21.910
Homemakers not to stereotype at all,
00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:35.139
Yeah, there's some tendencies, I think, and with the genders, and that is we're wired differently, I believe, for the most part, and those characteristics definitely come out.
00:08:35.669 --> 00:08:59.379
Something else I'm going to share this will really tell you how long ago it was, but I remember, and I went to lots of different producer meetings in those years, and going to a holistic Management conference in Albuquerque, and they were focusing on Wolf Challenge and on much of the BLM land.
00:08:59.379 --> 00:09:05.919
They were having a lot of challenges around that, and they had a panel.
00:09:06.845 --> 00:09:30.764
actually included from all ends of the spectrum, belief and position wise, and that was the first time I'd ever participated in something where they actually invited the people that were on a different page, frankly, to come and share their thoughts and ideas.
00:09:31.394 --> 00:09:33.644
So that we could understand each other better.
00:09:33.644 --> 00:09:37.455
And I'd actually forgot about that now until we start visiting Christine.
00:09:37.735 --> 00:09:39.304
But that was really pivotal.
00:09:39.304 --> 00:09:45.544
I thought, holy cow a place where we are being true to the trying to create win.
00:09:45.845 --> 00:09:47.044
Relationships.
00:09:47.195 --> 00:09:55.154
The only way we can do that is if we start sitting down with those that we don't necessarily agree with and trying to understand things from their perspective.
00:09:55.424 --> 00:10:00.164
And the conference just really exemplified that.
00:10:00.815 --> 00:10:01.684
that's amazing.
00:10:01.695 --> 00:10:01.965
Yeah.
00:10:01.985 --> 00:10:07.855
I love it because it really is bringing in that concept of the whole, the W H O L E.
00:10:09.274 --> 00:10:32.075
We're all on different paths and different phases of our journey and to be able to get everybody to your point, a win to get everybody on a similar same page is so pivotal to, Implementing successful policies, implementing successful routines programs, all sorts of things.
00:10:32.105 --> 00:10:33.504
So yeah, that's amazing.
00:10:34.134 --> 00:10:37.424
I'm slightly envious that you have had all those experiences.
00:10:39.215 --> 00:11:00.240
Yeah, that also at that point in time, there was a movement, this will tell you how long ago it was, the slogan was Grazing free by 93 or cattle free, like when they were trying to get all the ruminants off the public lands by 1993.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:00.500
So it
00:11:00.504 --> 00:11:01.004
Wow.
00:11:01.269 --> 00:11:03.509
than 93 that this was going on.
00:11:04.554 --> 00:11:12.945
So how has holistic management, the framework, helped you in challenges that we get presented on a day to day basis?
00:11:13.779 --> 00:11:19.049
The succession, the familial delegation of responsibilities, how has that helped you
00:11:21.269 --> 00:11:23.730
I think one of the pieces.
00:11:24.174 --> 00:11:39.465
That has often been hard for me to really, really, Oh, I don't even really learn or assimilate if that's the right word.
00:11:39.465 --> 00:11:44.715
I'm not sure it is, but the recognition that it honestly is a journey.
00:11:45.090 --> 00:11:52.059
And I remember in the earlier years feeling like, Oh, my gosh, but we're not doing this.
00:11:52.090 --> 00:11:53.169
We're not doing that.
00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:57.470
Our goal is only our financial planning could be better.
00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:10.299
And again, I think that as a organization and a movement, we need to really be mindful of that and, accepting of everybody is at a different point.
00:12:10.330 --> 00:12:11.539
And where you enter.
00:12:11.830 --> 00:12:14.399
As I mentioned before, will make a difference.
00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:20.370
But your current set of situations, will circumstances will make a big difference, too.
00:12:20.629 --> 00:12:23.970
So certainly we've gone through lots of transitions.
00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:29.000
I think of thing that I can now reflect on that had a big impact.
00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:37.815
I've already mentioned my parents being very open minded and, Dad was very inclusive in decision making.
00:12:38.134 --> 00:12:59.745
And so when we would go through planning processes, it was predominantly my brother and I that took over but we were always included in all the conversations, be it about finances, debt, and we knew the people that were the resources for that, our bankers, our accountants, our lawyers.
00:13:00.225 --> 00:13:09.705
He took us to all the meetings before we were even formally, owners of our own company that were invested in the bigger group.
00:13:09.705 --> 00:13:11.014
So that was so helpful.
00:13:11.445 --> 00:13:19.524
And then sitting down and doing the projections in the planning and those were going through some pretty harsh times with up here.
00:13:19.524 --> 00:13:25.225
We had the drought of 0203 and BSE, which was just a complete double whammy.
00:13:25.225 --> 00:13:34.774
And when I think back the impact of that is it's far reaching when I start seeing what calf prices are these days and.
00:13:35.509 --> 00:13:43.690
kids roll their eyes at me, but it's like, Whoa, this is a never have I ever is how I've phrased some of our sales lately.
00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:53.440
Again wereally focused on the grazing point and, as I said, the land we were managing some of it had been in crop because we were growing feed.
00:13:53.679 --> 00:14:04.330
We pretty much seeded everything down to grass put lots of fences in and really worked hard at at becoming good graziers.
00:14:04.379 --> 00:14:09.639
But again, that has other impacts to mother nature and what's going on.
00:14:10.004 --> 00:14:11.784
Will have a lot to do with that.
00:14:11.784 --> 00:14:15.894
So try to use the financial piece of it.
00:14:15.894 --> 00:14:37.065
The gross profit analysis and the testing questions, I think, as far as the framework goes, was something that we just got better at all the time and trying to think about things about what is our weak link in this chain of production and, drilling down in that once we'd gotten to the point where we were.
00:14:37.389 --> 00:14:40.009
Growing a pretty decent amount of forage.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:41.529
Then what was it?
00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:49.629
It was more product conversion was the weak link, because how are we converting that to revenue at the end of the day?
00:14:51.195 --> 00:14:53.095
Yeah, that's currently my problem.
00:14:53.735 --> 00:14:55.284
I've, got a product weak link.
00:14:55.294 --> 00:14:58.174
Cause I have way more grass than I have livestock.
00:14:58.554 --> 00:15:00.894
So I've grown all this beautiful grass.
00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:08.049
But with cattle prices the way they are, I just I can't make them the numbers work.
00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:17.309
Going back to that example, something that we did that people used to shake their heads at, I'm sure.
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:18.309
Lots of things we did.
00:15:18.309 --> 00:15:27.500
People Probably shook their heads at, but we not only have an owned livestock enterprise, we have a custom grazing enterprise as well.
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:47.100
I will never say they're static, that we always have this many cows and we always run this many owned yearlings or Stockers, as you guys call them, and as well as custom, but going through the gross profit has been a helpful way for us to determine what numbers as well as the records that we keep from the grazing management.
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.590
So we know how many grazing days we produce on average in a year.
00:15:51.590 --> 00:15:53.049
Is it going to be dry next year?
00:15:53.049 --> 00:16:03.039
Should we scale that back and, that's been helpful to all the records for animal days per acre that we get from our operation.
00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:05.340
I know that's been very important.
00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:08.340
I'm a relatively new grazer compared to you.
00:16:09.534 --> 00:16:18.258
I started this midlife career change and not having that data, because it was new land to me.
00:16:18.268 --> 00:16:29.288
So I was learning the land because I didn't have the history of what was done before and then not having The carrying capacity, what each pasture could, produce.
00:16:30.038 --> 00:16:36.148
The first couple of years was a struggle, but now that I have that data, it makes decisions and management so much easier
00:16:37.072 --> 00:16:50.932
Yeah, We had a good conversation at a field day that I was at not too long ago, and one of the starting points that we were using with people is if you were haying that, how many bales per acre would you get?
00:16:51.852 --> 00:16:53.393
how much do your bales weigh?
00:16:54.222 --> 00:16:57.023
Okay you just said pounds per acre, right?
00:16:57.087 --> 00:16:57.437
by
00:16:57.482 --> 00:17:08.442
if you consider that, a cow or a steer or a heifer eats two and a half to 3% Body weight dry matter right there.
00:17:08.442 --> 00:17:10.893
You can figure out a rough carrying capacity.
00:17:11.153 --> 00:17:20.903
And I think there's part of our challenge in holistic management is helping the segue to people that are just starting into
00:17:21.067 --> 00:17:21.577
course.
00:17:21.823 --> 00:17:22.913
who's saying, you know what?
00:17:22.913 --> 00:17:25.863
We get 80 animal days per acre off of this paddock.
00:17:25.863 --> 00:17:36.942
And that's one way that I found without going off on a tangent is because almost all cattle producers will have a sense of yeah, How many bales of hay they could produce off Something.
00:17:37.417 --> 00:17:37.758
sure.
00:17:37.867 --> 00:17:45.788
And I know we've talked about this, but as I coach and teach workshops with newer land stewards all the.
00:17:45.788 --> 00:17:57.478
Let's call it jargon we throw a lot at them and so to be able to go back and say, this is what I'm meaning when I say animal days per acre which goes to what you've just shared and, all of the other components.
00:17:58.488 --> 00:18:12.942
There is a lot of learning and I will be honest the first year I had a cheat sheet that I used to carry Because I'm slow, but I'll get there eventually but that cheat sheet really helps Sure
00:18:12.958 --> 00:18:16.407
we adapted how we would do our grazing back in the day.
00:18:16.407 --> 00:18:25.288
Actually, it's funny thinking about this because we had some binders and that we had in the pickups and we put the calendars in there and then the.
00:18:26.053 --> 00:18:39.542
then we also had pieces of notepaper that had the order we were going to go in paddocks so then we would have the grazing order figured out an estimated days from the grazing planning back in the day.
00:18:39.542 --> 00:18:44.022
I used to be quite detailed and I okay, we were in that paddock for.
00:18:44.468 --> 00:18:45.587
4.
00:18:46.008 --> 00:18:49.867
76 days and everybody like, Yeah, no, four and a half.
00:18:49.867 --> 00:18:50.337
That's good.
00:18:50.337 --> 00:18:53.367
We don't need to go into any further detail.
00:18:53.548 --> 00:19:02.307
We adapted the way we identify our animal units because we are switching back between yearlings and cow calf.
00:19:02.657 --> 00:19:07.778
And so we don't do it the same as everybody else with 1000 pound animal unit.
00:19:07.788 --> 00:19:11.288
We have a 700 pound yearling is an average animal unit.
00:19:11.548 --> 00:19:18.417
And then we can easily say, most pairs of our cows would be double that.
00:19:18.417 --> 00:19:20.278
So it's just a 2 to 1 ratio.
00:19:20.458 --> 00:19:21.688
So easy math.
00:19:22.048 --> 00:19:27.663
If we were running 100 cows on that grazing cell, we could probably get away with 200 yearlings.
00:19:27.883 --> 00:19:31.702
Of course, as the days is an important factor there, too.
00:19:31.702 --> 00:19:40.742
But if you're doing it the same growing season, those are just some of the adaptations we used over the years, and now we do lots.
00:19:41.083 --> 00:19:49.022
Just on our phones where we, have notes in there to say when we're moving the cattle and then put that into the spreadsheets.
00:19:49.952 --> 00:19:57.702
,I love that our colleague Brian Welberg has he shares he has his grazing chart on the bathroom door.
00:19:58.053 --> 00:20:01.952
So everybody can see what they're supposed to be doing.
00:20:02.292 --> 00:20:10.492
And he shares that he just puts one year over the other one so that you can flip through and look at the history of it all.
00:20:10.502 --> 00:20:10.692
So
00:20:10.762 --> 00:20:11.823
happened last year.
00:20:12.248 --> 00:20:12.607
Yeah,
00:20:13.913 --> 00:20:17.202
And certainly learning more and more all the time.
00:20:17.202 --> 00:20:18.873
The importance of recovery.
00:20:20.042 --> 00:20:21.712
That's such a changing piece.
00:20:21.712 --> 00:20:29.252
And as an educator, you know that everybody wants to know what recovery period they should use and always hesitant to say.
00:20:29.593 --> 00:20:34.407
And over time, when we've been, going through some dry years.
00:20:34.407 --> 00:20:35.988
We've extended it.
00:20:36.367 --> 00:20:42.778
So I was almost coming to the conclusion that initially we had too short of a recovery period.
00:20:43.107 --> 00:20:57.288
But this summer at the beginning of the season, we had really optimal rains, and it reminded me of yes, when the conditions are good in our country on pretty good grass.
00:20:57.657 --> 00:21:01.567
We can have a shorter recovery period, but it's not static.
00:21:01.607 --> 00:21:06.248
We can't say that every year plants will recover in X number of days.
00:21:06.258 --> 00:21:07.738
See, I don't even want to say a number.
00:21:07.738 --> 00:21:09.938
And it's very location specific, right?
00:21:09.938 --> 00:21:17.867
It's very environmental, how much rain, condition of the soil, how severe graze or not.
00:21:17.867 --> 00:21:21.678
So there's so many variables that affect that recovery.
00:21:22.722 --> 00:21:37.262
Yeah, And it's always, going through a drought, you probably will have to do more severe grazing than you would like, but we're lucky where we live, it's more non brittle, that it is pretty forgiving with some moisture.
00:21:37.932 --> 00:21:40.782
Yeah, I'm in East Texas.
00:21:40.782 --> 00:21:46.813
So I've got an average rainfall of about 50 inches a year, which is pretty consistent.
00:21:47.792 --> 00:21:50.522
So, yeah, so I have a little bit more grace.
00:21:52.393 --> 00:21:52.853
Yes,
00:21:53.653 --> 00:21:54.032
Yeah,
00:21:54.387 --> 00:21:59.327
percent you know, and learning that is one of the founding principles of holistic management.
00:21:59.357 --> 00:22:03.288
You know that Is different in different environment and conditions.
00:22:03.288 --> 00:22:06.657
And I think that's important to note that one as well.
00:22:07.083 --> 00:22:23.032
Yeah, so I've been on this property for four years and I bought it and it had previously just been hayed and there were some animals on here at one point, but it was continuous grazing and it had been cropland before it used to be cotton.
00:22:24.272 --> 00:22:27.623
But within the first two years.
00:22:27.847 --> 00:22:36.038
Of being on this property because I was rotating the animals into the respective.
00:22:36.038 --> 00:22:45.938
Pastures when I was allowing for that recovery, I tripled my carrying capacity within those two years just due to management.
00:22:45.938 --> 00:22:47.968
Soil conditions were still the same.
00:22:48.778 --> 00:22:51.238
The past management was still the same.
00:22:51.238 --> 00:22:54.157
But because I allowed for that recovery.
00:22:55.097 --> 00:22:55.748
I tripled it.
00:22:55.778 --> 00:22:57.367
It's amazing, right?
00:22:58.157 --> 00:23:06.417
And and I'm noticing here in East Texas, July and August typically is pretty dry, and then we have rainfall in September.
00:23:06.417 --> 00:23:09.087
So we really have two growing season.
00:23:09.087 --> 00:23:12.968
Obviously, the springtime is, a much longer growing season.
00:23:13.428 --> 00:23:32.053
But I've noticed that despite the small drought period, we've My recovery times I'm having to shorten because my ecosystem functions are improving because of the management, because density recovery, all of these different tools that we have available to us.
00:23:32.942 --> 00:23:37.712
So it's when people ask me for a recipe, I said, I can't give you a recipe.
00:23:38.212 --> 00:23:41.482
The answer you're going to get from us is it depends.
00:23:43.032 --> 00:23:44.192
Yes, for sure.
00:23:44.462 --> 00:23:50.502
And certainly one of the things that, I was sharing With our son.
00:23:50.502 --> 00:24:05.383
The other day is just the fact that we have a lot of paddocks gives us some flexibility because even when then it got really dry and we were short, but there's still there's some outlying paddocks that we hadn't even bothered going into.
00:24:05.502 --> 00:24:19.333
They've got heaps of growth or just those kind of favorable unintended consequences from having a lot of paddocks in, a more non brittle environment, that just really can help a lot.
00:24:19.583 --> 00:24:20.482
Really can help.
00:24:22.482 --> 00:24:35.752
Brittleness is based on the average annual precipitation of the, rainfall and the frequency I, call myself between a five or six on a scale of one to 10, where would you put yourself at?
00:24:35.938 --> 00:24:38.307
we'd be slightly more brittle than you
00:24:38.423 --> 00:24:38.913
Okay.
00:24:40.508 --> 00:24:52.798
Yeah, mostly because we don't get quite as much rainfall as you and probably when we started this, I would have said the same because we used to have more consistent rainfall than we do now.
00:24:52.798 --> 00:24:53.938
It seems so,
00:24:56.393 --> 00:24:59.282
So you're seeing less rainfall because of.
00:24:59.803 --> 00:25:02.012
Ecosystem functions being ineffective.
00:25:02.093 --> 00:25:02.393
Yeah.
00:25:02.442 --> 00:25:03.333
Oh, more erratic.
00:25:03.383 --> 00:25:03.833
Okay.
00:25:03.938 --> 00:25:04.317
Yeah.
00:25:04.413 --> 00:25:08.432
All our animals are used to a single electric wire.
00:25:08.432 --> 00:25:16.323
So people really did think in the early days when we had these single wires everywhere, like what on earth were we thinking?
00:25:16.553 --> 00:25:20.682
And we still do put because of the social weak link.
00:25:21.028 --> 00:25:30.667
Perimeter fences are a little bit more robust than that, but they don't need to be, in my opinion, once the animals are used to it and trained to it.
00:25:30.667 --> 00:25:33.988
And we have a different set of yearlings come in every year.
00:25:34.478 --> 00:25:43.567
And we work with a feed yard that we try to get them to train them to the electric fence so that they're familiar with it when they come to our place.
00:25:43.958 --> 00:25:45.417
Oh, that's fabulous.
00:25:45.448 --> 00:25:47.198
That's a great bonus.
00:25:48.607 --> 00:25:53.968
So how long does it take them to get used to the electrical fence, the yearlings?
00:25:54.307 --> 00:25:54.988
three days.
00:25:55.397 --> 00:25:55.827
Okay.
00:25:56.288 --> 00:25:59.968
And how do you know when they've learned the lesson to stay away from that fence?
00:26:00.748 --> 00:26:02.538
because nobody ever touches it.
00:26:02.538 --> 00:26:10.792
Like in the Hours, somebody will go up to it, touch it, everybody jumps back and yeah, pretty soon they don't touch it at all.
00:26:11.188 --> 00:26:15.688
Because I'm starting to bring in stockers to meet my direct to consumer beef demand.
00:26:16.097 --> 00:26:29.268
So I have a training paddock that I have that I put them in and with time I'm noticing that when they stay about a foot away from the wire, then they're ready to go out to the pasture.
00:26:29.528 --> 00:26:29.907
yeah.
00:26:30.157 --> 00:26:36.458
You could probably do a test and just stick a bit of hay, if you had a small square bale, just under the wire.
00:26:36.458 --> 00:26:37.768
And if they don't even try,
00:26:37.847 --> 00:26:38.218
Yeah.
00:26:38.317 --> 00:26:50.208
Usually because that paddock isn't used very often except for training purposes so that it's always very lushful and when they see that grass, but they stay away it's cool.
00:26:51.623 --> 00:26:57.573
We, started working with, Livestock handling and worked a fair bit with Bud Williams.
00:26:57.603 --> 00:27:08.232
We actually met him at one of those Albuquerque holistic management conferences, and he came up to this area and then relocated and the feed yard that I was saying.
00:27:08.232 --> 00:27:09.932
We work with VT feeders.
00:27:10.093 --> 00:27:12.663
He worked there for many years.
00:27:12.992 --> 00:27:19.432
And that's where Dawn Hnatow, who is also a very well known livestock handler.
00:27:19.623 --> 00:27:21.373
She trained under Bud.
00:27:21.663 --> 00:27:24.492
And so she's from my neck of the woods.
00:27:24.492 --> 00:27:31.288
And we're planning a workshop down in Texas in Weatherford, so excited about that.
00:27:31.557 --> 00:27:38.307
And, we're also going to have Cooper Hibbard, who's going to be talking some more about the livestock and the grazing.
00:27:38.698 --> 00:27:50.268
Dawn's going to be talking about the livestock handling, and I'm going to be talking probably more from the holistic management side about the people and financial side of things.
00:27:50.778 --> 00:27:51.307
Fabulous.
00:27:51.307 --> 00:27:51.538
Yes.
00:27:51.538 --> 00:27:57.627
And I'll make sure and put that on the episode show notes so that if people want to come join us.
00:27:57.708 --> 00:27:58.087
And
00:27:58.127 --> 00:27:58.508
Yeah.
00:27:58.758 --> 00:28:02.817
getting the details, as I mentioned, you put into place, and I'll share that with you.
00:28:03.887 --> 00:28:04.847
Yeah, shortly.
00:28:05.347 --> 00:28:05.667
Yeah.
00:28:05.708 --> 00:28:10.877
I'm planning on being there because I wouldn't miss learning from you because we're all learning,
00:28:11.018 --> 00:28:11.307
good.
00:28:11.407 --> 00:28:12.718
We all learn from each other.
00:28:12.718 --> 00:28:14.688
We never have this mastered, right?
00:28:14.907 --> 00:28:16.218
This is a journey.
00:28:17.397 --> 00:28:19.157
There's always something new to learn.
00:28:19.897 --> 00:28:20.768
There totally is.
00:28:20.778 --> 00:28:21.087
Yeah,
00:28:23.008 --> 00:28:50.428
I'd like to steer the conversation a little bit towards more the people because I know from our conversations before that you're very involved in succession and helping families the next generation take over and you shared a little bit of your story about how your father was so open minded, but to talk more about the people side, because I think that's one of the biggest hurdles we all encounter.
00:28:51.357 --> 00:28:53.867
I'll share that As a single operator.
00:28:53.867 --> 00:28:55.758
I'm running this place by myself.
00:28:57.958 --> 00:29:22.548
Even though it's just myself, the people portion of that my mindset, my thought process, my condition tendencies, whatever it was, keeping me from being more profitable, more successful, more adaptive than I could have been all that to say, you don't have to be part of a management team to encounter people issues.
00:29:22.548 --> 00:29:25.978
It could be your own self that is blocking you too.
00:29:26.038 --> 00:29:26.417
Yeah.
00:29:26.468 --> 00:29:26.788
Yeah.
00:29:27.057 --> 00:29:44.157
And certainly in the the earlier learnings of the foundations of holistic management, the idea of paradigms and, or you can call that a perception and really starting to explore what paradigms am I operating under, and there's nothing wrong with them.
00:29:44.157 --> 00:29:45.028
We all have them.
00:29:45.327 --> 00:29:49.468
But are there some that are limiting and no longer serving us?
00:29:49.758 --> 00:30:07.817
And I think those exercises as the learning process to sit down and say what are some of the paradigms that I'm operating under that we just talked about electric fence a paradigm that everything has to be in a five wire tight as a guitar string, barbed wire fence.
00:30:08.817 --> 00:30:11.407
In some situations, that'll be ideal, right?
00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:26.813
But other times, it might not be so and I think we're constantly, evolving with that and even challenging some of the paradigms that we now have as holistic managers over the years, are those still serving as well?
00:30:26.813 --> 00:30:29.393
I think we should be challenging ourselves on that.
00:30:29.613 --> 00:30:47.637
It's very easy to point the finger at other people who have limiting beliefs or paradigms, but you're right, shining it back on oneself And trying to even when I put that example about going through BSE and the drought certain paradigms came up,
00:30:48.057 --> 00:30:48.458
Sure.
00:30:49.367 --> 00:31:02.502
that I have to continually remind myself another gal that does a lot of succession work, not necessarily in the holistic management field, but she's Canadian, Elaine Fraze.
00:31:02.913 --> 00:31:08.113
And she has a good phrase that is,'that was then, this is now'.
00:31:08.462 --> 00:31:18.182
And sure there might be some similarities, but Each year is a new set of circumstances as you well know.
00:31:18.182 --> 00:31:29.732
And I think that's something that we need to remind our people about too, to be gentle with themselves and offer some grace because some of your learnings might not be applicable anymore.
00:31:30.002 --> 00:31:37.762
And the idea of sitting down, getting clear on your values and what's really important to you.
00:31:38.972 --> 00:31:55.032
And then also spending time to envision what sort of operation and life do you really want that kind of goes outside of certainly back in the day that was way outside of what you would take it at ag production workshop.
00:31:55.423 --> 00:31:58.113
And all that personal development work as well.
00:31:58.123 --> 00:32:03.113
So much of Stephen Covey's teachings we follow.
00:32:03.113 --> 00:32:06.022
I already talked about the win That one comes from him.
00:32:06.022 --> 00:32:12.502
Sharpen the saw does the time management quadrants is another Stephen Covey principle.
00:32:12.512 --> 00:32:15.712
So I think all of those continuous learning, really.
00:32:16.813 --> 00:32:25.792
Can be applied and those kind of conversations doesn't matter what sort of production model you're in but to have your team and or even yourself.
00:32:25.792 --> 00:32:26.932
It starts with yourself.
00:32:27.002 --> 00:32:43.512
What kind of life do you want to create for you and then coming together with the different layers or the other people that are in your whole under management and To see if there is some commonality and can we all be on the same page?
00:32:43.992 --> 00:32:47.813
Sometimes we won't be and that's okay too because maybe if you can.
00:32:49.018 --> 00:32:59.097
Reach that outcome through some discovery and personal reflections, then you can figure out ways to be more independent as opposed to interdependent.
00:32:59.637 --> 00:33:12.218
I often say,"just because we're related doesn't mean we have to work together" but maybe we can do it in a creative and I, I really give a lot of kudos to the younger generation because they do think more outside the box there.
00:33:12.732 --> 00:33:25.393
Creativity on organizational structure and business relationships I think is something that we can really look to the future of what these operations should and could look like.
00:33:26.008 --> 00:33:26.438
Yeah.
00:33:26.728 --> 00:33:37.807
I know that I always get a lot of good feedback when I'm teaching and coaching, when I share that, our operations and our goals.
00:33:38.167 --> 00:33:42.938
Are not going to look the same in 10 years than they are now, right?
00:33:44.448 --> 00:33:52.307
Because we get older because we get more clarity because we're adapting to financial political Mother Nature.
00:33:53.067 --> 00:33:55.807
I've been doing this for 12 years now.
00:33:56.057 --> 00:34:00.188
My operation now doesn't look anything like it did 12 years ago.
00:34:00.667 --> 00:34:05.657
And it doesn't look anything like it did four years ago when I moved onto this property.
00:34:06.508 --> 00:34:17.557
And one of the things that I've recognized myself and I share this when I'm, helping people go through the decision testing questions is that last question: the Gut check.
00:34:18.268 --> 00:34:28.467
Sometimes you're testing an action or decision and, mostly passes, and you get to that gut check and it just doesn't, something just doesn't sit right.
00:34:28.797 --> 00:34:34.197
A lot of times I find it's because there's a value embedded there that I hadn't recognized.
00:34:34.858 --> 00:34:41.538
That I need to go back and update my holistic goal to say, this is now important to me.
00:34:41.777 --> 00:34:45.728
This is now, something that I need to take more consideration of.
00:34:46.652 --> 00:34:47.063
Yeah.
00:34:47.163 --> 00:34:47.512
Yeah.
00:34:47.782 --> 00:34:51.302
And so then along with that when we're trying to create.
00:34:52.063 --> 00:35:01.813
These visions and statement of purpose, if you will, but there needs to be, good communication.
00:35:02.083 --> 00:35:05.733
And the reality is that most of us are quite poor at that.
00:35:06.072 --> 00:35:11.068
And also knowing and hopefully giving some skills and.
00:35:11.228 --> 00:35:19.007
Tools and strategies that bit by bit people can improve their communication skills in their operation.
00:35:20.628 --> 00:35:38.467
David Irvine, the mentor that I referenced he talks about it's like a muscle and we just need to make a practice of getting better at it, whether it's having regular meetings or whatever the strategies are listening exercises and, that type of thing.
00:35:38.478 --> 00:35:49.793
Because, I say this often, but, logically, I know that everybody has a different perspective.
00:35:51.182 --> 00:35:57.163
it's emotionally, it's really hard for me to sometimes get that.
00:35:57.342 --> 00:36:00.043
I think this is how I'm seeing something.
00:36:00.043 --> 00:36:02.052
It's so obvious to me.
00:36:02.362 --> 00:36:04.443
Isn't it obvious to you, Christine?
00:36:05.242 --> 00:36:06.373
And you will say.
00:36:06.708 --> 00:36:07.137
No,
00:36:07.177 --> 00:36:07.617
No.
00:36:07.708 --> 00:36:09.077
obvious to me at all.
00:36:09.237 --> 00:36:19.788
This is how I see it and taking the time to really try to figure out and giving people the opportunity to say how they're seeing things for sure.
00:36:20.367 --> 00:36:25.777
So you've been teaching and coaching many more years than I have.
00:36:26.038 --> 00:36:32.608
So I'm going to defer to your wisdom with respect to communications and you've worked with many families.
00:36:32.657 --> 00:36:37.188
We don't typically have a standard recommendation because we're very adaptive, right?
00:36:37.228 --> 00:36:44.237
And everything, everybody has different values, what do you tend to suggest to help families improve that communication?
00:36:44.237 --> 00:36:45.108
Is it meetings?
00:36:45.108 --> 00:36:47.538
Is it personal development?
00:36:47.867 --> 00:36:49.757
What, are your typical suggestions?
00:36:49.882 --> 00:36:56.882
I think, yeah, certainly a regular how do we communicate and even assess that and see what everybody thinks?
00:36:57.103 --> 00:37:07.597
Okay so if we're saying in our goal or context that we want to have open, honest communication, what does that look like?
00:37:07.987 --> 00:37:09.277
Have that conversation.
00:37:09.438 --> 00:37:10.097
Okay.
00:37:10.688 --> 00:37:14.708
What systems or behaviors do we need to have?
00:37:14.947 --> 00:37:17.858
So linking it back to that three part goal.
00:37:18.088 --> 00:37:18.387
Okay.
00:37:18.568 --> 00:37:25.628
One of them is regular meetings, everybody can have a personal learning plan.
00:37:25.898 --> 00:37:33.157
Or being intentional about, especially in our ag operations where we are the winter time's great.
00:37:33.387 --> 00:37:50.197
Everybody take turns and go get off the ranch or the farm and go to a conference and learn something so some of those different kind of things maybe having operating agreements where you're defining roles and responsibilities and expectations.
00:37:50.498 --> 00:37:53.507
Because again, that can be a disconnect for sure.
00:37:53.737 --> 00:38:00.978
And sometimes even those basic things to improve communication, won't always help.
00:38:01.228 --> 00:38:05.958
Maybe there's a underlying logjam that needs some attention.
00:38:06.228 --> 00:38:21.503
And if those are serious Personal issues sometimes trying to help determine a way to address that, whereas still continuing to run the operation can be very challenging.
00:38:21.503 --> 00:38:37.282
We talk about this with Simon Sinek and his Golden Circle and the Art of Why?, and really talking about why are we doing this, because if we can keep coming back to that, then the how and the what can be easier, right?
00:38:37.543 --> 00:38:47.322
And really understanding each other working, to understand each other better I think is an important component of that.
00:38:48.188 --> 00:38:50.197
Yeah, the power of the five whys.
00:38:50.648 --> 00:39:04.398
I learned while I was still doing my training to become an educator with Holistic Management International, I was given the opportunity to help teach the foundations course, the foundations of holistic management to.
00:39:04.893 --> 00:39:11.733
a group of, underserved African Americans in, Arkansas.
00:39:12.773 --> 00:39:16.603
And they were new agrarians that were going through an apprenticeship.
00:39:17.052 --> 00:39:20.663
And so we were talking about formulating the holistic goal.
00:39:20.943 --> 00:39:24.543
And I use Elizabeth Mark's value worksheet.
00:39:25.112 --> 00:39:41.672
With the list of the values and like 50 different value words and you pick the ones that most resonate to you and then you rank them and two of these young men picked power as their top value.
00:39:42.362 --> 00:39:52.338
And in my training I was asked to start using the five Why's, so I asked these two gentlemen why is power important to you?
00:39:52.557 --> 00:39:53.768
And I kept asking why.
00:39:53.987 --> 00:40:06.807
And for both of these gentlemen, the reason they picked power was because their heart was to help, support others to improve their quality of life.
00:40:06.838 --> 00:40:19.007
They felt that if they had the power, they would have then the means to be able to help those that can't help themselves, that don't have the privileges, don't have the opportunities, don't have the funding.
00:40:19.358 --> 00:40:22.737
So I will never forget the power of the five Why's now.
00:40:22.822 --> 00:40:23.413
Yes.
00:40:23.847 --> 00:40:35.057
Because, Making decisions with respect to power versus making decisions to what I want to help my, community, improve themselves is completely different.
00:40:36.577 --> 00:40:37.297
For sure.
00:40:37.367 --> 00:40:41.257
And developing that statement of purpose of why are we really doing this?
00:40:41.257 --> 00:40:41.677
What are we
00:40:41.878 --> 00:40:42.518
Exactly.
00:40:43.038 --> 00:40:43.697
Exactly.
00:40:44.027 --> 00:40:51.688
And that again I'm glad it's more commonplace now, but traditionally, that is not a question.
00:40:52.532 --> 00:40:57.572
farmer ranch family or team would sit and talk about around the kitchen table.
00:40:58.143 --> 00:40:58.503
no.
00:40:59.123 --> 00:41:01.882
We are getting close to our time together.
00:41:01.963 --> 00:41:12.003
Anything that you wanted to share that I haven't asked you that, you're passionate about that, you wake up every morning saying, this is what I want to be doing today.
00:41:14.612 --> 00:41:27.012
I think that, just the learning and then continuous learning that we encourage and engage in holistic management.
00:41:28.413 --> 00:41:32.313
I mean in the growing season working with.
00:41:33.362 --> 00:41:37.833
grazing Animals and particularly cattle in our situation.
00:41:38.452 --> 00:41:45.023
It's just something that I am really passionate about.
00:41:45.242 --> 00:41:52.092
But then also part of, our holistic goal is to have a sustainable, viable.
00:41:52.342 --> 00:41:54.963
operation, but it's for me.
00:41:54.972 --> 00:42:15.007
It's not only for us and our family, but to be able to take our learnings and wins and losses and help others in the ag community and beyond apply some of what works for them that they can, improve their operations.
00:42:15.038 --> 00:42:25.878
Thriving is a word I like these days, and I think it connects a bit with our, connection with nature and those processes that we talk about.
00:42:25.878 --> 00:42:31.657
And helping their where it goes beyond to the community at large, not just your own.
00:42:31.918 --> 00:42:33.818
That's also somewhat of an age thing.
00:42:33.818 --> 00:42:42.057
I think I've noticed that when we're younger and Trying to make sense and figure out who we are.
00:42:42.057 --> 00:42:53.898
It might be a little bit more siloed, if you will, until you get to a point where you're have partners and children and families that then your outlook becomes more expansive.
00:42:55.052 --> 00:42:57.322
So that leads me to a question.
00:42:58.733 --> 00:42:59.922
Because of what you said.
00:43:01.003 --> 00:43:17.762
Do you think the holistic management framework appeals to people who have personalities, who have character traits that acknowledge that change is needed.
00:43:18.083 --> 00:43:20.432
There's some people that really like to learn.
00:43:21.503 --> 00:43:24.572
They like challenges and they like to conquer challenges.
00:43:24.572 --> 00:43:27.733
And so by this they're constantly learning.
00:43:27.963 --> 00:43:33.543
But I know I've encountered some people that they're quite happy with the tried and true.
00:43:33.543 --> 00:43:37.742
And they're like, if nothing ever changed, I would be very happy.
00:43:38.663 --> 00:43:39.672
Any thoughts on that?
00:43:41.387 --> 00:43:52.217
I think that, from my learnings and the amazing people I've got to meet such as yourself in this community, If they're okay and doing well where they are, that's great for them.
00:43:53.108 --> 00:44:05.668
And it's easy with the way the biases work where you can see how somebody else could improve their lot in life, so to speak with an outside lens, but.
00:44:06.498 --> 00:44:08.047
Who am I to say that, right?
00:44:08.108 --> 00:44:15.907
So that welcoming people in whatever point in the journey they're at to make some new discoveries and learn.
00:44:16.557 --> 00:44:18.047
I do like you have that.
00:44:18.713 --> 00:44:30.262
core For belief that everybody is destined to grow and develop, just like all the, creatures in mother nature, right?
00:44:30.543 --> 00:44:37.563
I feel that's part of the process but I acknowledge that we do it at different rates and different speeds and different ways.
00:44:39.032 --> 00:44:47.163
If some people are less inclined to be wanting to take big steps, something that I often.
00:44:47.523 --> 00:45:04.112
We think about and we talk about to in our educators circles is in this idea of change management, is it better to encourage what's more effective, like sweeping 180 degree changes or incremental bit by bit small steps.
00:45:04.452 --> 00:45:08.253
And I think, as you said earlier, the answer to that is it depends.
00:45:08.858 --> 00:45:14.822
Know, How we embark and adapt to change will not be the same in every situation.
00:45:15.378 --> 00:45:22.458
Yeah, it reminds me of a workshop that I helped facilitate actually with Wayne Knight, our executive director.
00:45:23.132 --> 00:45:44.172
In Central Texas, and we had a one day workshop, and this gentleman from South Texas came in, and he was probably 75, 76, very healthy, cowboy, and when we started and we had introductions, we had everybody answer the question, why are you here?
00:45:44.702 --> 00:45:49.793
And he goes, I have been doing the same thing for the last, 50 years.
00:45:51.268 --> 00:45:54.338
But I've just found out that what I'm doing is.
00:45:54.987 --> 00:45:59.847
Not helping my granddaughter who has just been diagnosed with this sickness.
00:46:00.918 --> 00:46:04.628
So I am here to learn how I can do things differently.
00:46:04.737 --> 00:46:11.588
So I'm not harming my granddaughter and it gets me emotional every time I share that.
00:46:11.637 --> 00:46:14.307
can completely understand that for sure.
00:46:14.387 --> 00:46:15.228
For sure.
00:46:15.297 --> 00:46:18.688
And, yeah, that, that's so true.
00:46:18.708 --> 00:46:25.887
And so his reason for change was, at his heart.
00:46:26.268 --> 00:46:26.788
Yes.
00:46:26.838 --> 00:46:33.467
And I know that was a loaded question, but it does strike me as interesting.
00:46:33.507 --> 00:46:36.128
I've been here four years in my previous operation.
00:46:36.128 --> 00:46:41.838
I was there for quite a number of years, and I was doing things differently, and they look at me weird.
00:46:41.838 --> 00:46:48.217
And to your point I'm putting up poly wire and moving these animals every day.
00:46:48.797 --> 00:46:54.248
But when we have that drought period in July and August, I'm still green, right?
00:46:54.347 --> 00:46:57.057
Grass is still growing, and they're out feeding.
00:46:57.057 --> 00:47:09.498
hay, And I know we've shared in our, educator forum that why is it that our neighbors who see this day in, day out, don't come over and say, tell me how you're doing this.
00:47:11.398 --> 00:47:11.867
Yeah.
00:47:12.818 --> 00:47:14.577
There's a lot of reasons for that.
00:47:14.577 --> 00:47:23.188
I think that, but, again, the uniqueness of the situation to be sure.
00:47:24.467 --> 00:47:25.677
They have to be at the right place.
00:47:25.728 --> 00:47:48.693
organization are getting in a movement, if you will, are getting better at Being more expansive or accepting of, because that's the way that we're going to move the needle more is, inviting more people in.
00:47:48.913 --> 00:47:55.393
It also makes me think Simon Sinek has the Bell Curve Early adapters and innovators.
00:47:55.393 --> 00:47:56.862
I think I've got that.
00:47:57.422 --> 00:48:07.103
I might have those, maybe those are reversed, and it feels like for the longest time in holistic management, we were down here, but I think we're starting to go up here.
00:48:07.342 --> 00:48:10.063
Early majority is what that first part of the
00:48:10.172 --> 00:48:10.612
Yes.
00:48:10.733 --> 00:48:11.182
is.
00:48:11.612 --> 00:48:12.012
Yeah.
00:48:12.682 --> 00:48:14.668
Certainly Different things.
00:48:14.668 --> 00:48:24.557
I was going to mention this earlier that a big aha for us when we first got started was to look at the soil surface and the amount of bare ground.
00:48:24.947 --> 00:48:25.938
That was huge.
00:48:26.168 --> 00:48:35.972
Because before we'd always looked out across pastures and judge the condition of the cattle as much as anything.
00:48:36.313 --> 00:48:53.273
And so now so many years later to see this whole, discussion and inquiry into below ground and soil health and all the myriad of interrelationships there.
00:48:53.273 --> 00:48:55.882
I think that that's been another big step.
00:48:55.963 --> 00:48:56.833
I'm old enough now.
00:48:56.842 --> 00:49:04.612
I've been at this long enough that when I look back and see some of the what were some of the big changes that's certainly going to be another one.
00:49:04.612 --> 00:49:05.163
I think.
00:49:06.682 --> 00:49:06.972
Yeah.
00:49:07.353 --> 00:49:07.722
No.
00:49:08.132 --> 00:49:20.603
And I know at least in, in my area, my region, we have a whole new set of land stewards, landowners that COVID food supply issues, health issues.
00:49:21.373 --> 00:49:37.163
They've left city, they bought land, and they're trying to figure out how to be more self sufficient and be more sustainable so they're, already coming in with that paradigm shift, right?
00:49:38.943 --> 00:49:43.293
Which, which definitely it facilitates the change.
00:49:44.112 --> 00:49:46.382
Yeah, 100 percent 100%.
00:49:46.393 --> 00:49:46.793
Yeah.
00:49:47.632 --> 00:49:48.112
Perfect.
00:49:48.313 --> 00:49:55.552
Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom with me and sharing it in this episode.
00:49:55.552 --> 00:49:56.992
I appreciate you so much.
00:49:57.972 --> 00:50:00.152
Oh thank you for the opportunity.
00:50:00.193 --> 00:50:12.773
And I know it's not as good as when we have in person conversations, but this zoom platforms getting Or the other virtual platforms is getting pretty darn good to have engagement.
00:50:12.802 --> 00:50:18.663
And I mean that as we talk about how do we learn more and help people learn more about holistic management?
00:50:18.842 --> 00:50:24.753
Nothing beats boots on the ground face to face, but that's not always realistic.
00:50:25.842 --> 00:50:29.873
Incorporating this kind of models certainly helps
00:50:31.992 --> 00:50:39.193
If we didn't have zoom, then I'd have to invite you to Texas where it's what we decided it was 25 degrees Celsius here.
00:50:39.452 --> 00:50:40.152
And it's,
00:50:40.603 --> 00:50:43.302
minus degrees here.
00:50:43.322 --> 00:50:43.992
Yes.
00:50:44.463 --> 00:50:45.112
Yes.
00:50:45.842 --> 00:50:48.023
but I appreciate your time, Kelly.
00:50:49.023 --> 00:50:50.257
Thanks so much, Christine.
00:50:51.023 --> 00:50:54.742
Thanks for listening to Regenerative Agriculture, Thriving as a Modern Rancher.
00:50:55.083 --> 00:51:00.143
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, share with fellow ranchers, and leave a review.
00:51:00.443 --> 00:51:03.922
Together we can regenerate our lands, our profits, and our lives.
00:51:04.182 --> 00:51:06.123
Until next time, keep thriving.
