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This is reality proof possibility, an exploration of human ingenuity.
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This is reality proofs possibility, and I'm Michael Pearson, and I'm honored to be here today with Carlos Alvarez Pereira, the Secretary General of the Club of Rome.
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Carlos brings a rare combination of systems thinking, scientific insight, entrepreneurial experience, and moral imagination to one of the defining questions of our time.
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How can humanity create equitable well-being within a healthy biosphere?
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The Club of Rome has long challenged the dominant assumption that endless material expansion can continue on a finite planet.
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Under Carlos' leadership, that legacy is being carried forward with renewed urgency, not only as a warning, but also as an invitation to transformation.
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What makes Carlos an important voice for this conversation is his insistence that our ecological, social, and economic crises are also crises of imagination, culture, and worldview.
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He invites us to ask deeper questions like what kind of development truly deserves life, and what forms of innovation protect dignity and promote flourishing?
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And how might we organize societies and institutions around well-being, responsibility, and planetary health?
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So today we invite you to reflect with us on the deeper meaning of reality proves possibility, that another way is already emerging, and that together we can do better than this.
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So thank you, Carlos, for taking the time for being here with me.
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And the initial prompt is just like, what's your take on reality proves possibility?
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We can do better than this.
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Well, first of all, thank you, Michael, for inviting me.
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It's a real honor and a pleasure.
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And I love the title, you know, Reality Proves Possibility, because it breaks with what I call the imperialism of the present.
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The idea that what we live in is the only possible way of living, you know, that everything that happened before, instead of being as it is, the result of contingencies and the result of many human decisions and many human actions, would be like in a magical way, the only possible present that we have.
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We have to invoke, uh, as you said, you know, the power of imagination, and to say together with this present, there could be many other options for the present, and then that opens the space for imagining different futures, you know.
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So I like the title very much.
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Wonderful.
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And you've been dedicated to this inquiry for a long time, but you've also had several sort of professional lives and episodes.
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So I invite you to share with the listeners also like what has gotten you to the place that you are.
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What are some of the key crucible moments for you and your own development?
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If you don't mind just sharing a couple that you find.
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No, I mean there is uh this anecdote I've told several times, and I'm very pleased to share, and to give a tribute to my mother.
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Mothers are, of course, the most important persons in our lives, at least at the beginning, but in my case, also explains my relationship to the club of Rome because she was an early fan of the when the limits to growth uh appeared.
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You know, she was an economist and uh and she was like really provoked intellectually by uh what the club of Rome was saying in the limits to growth.
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And I was a kid at the time, I couldn't understand what it was about, but I was feeling the passion of my mother when she was talking about it.
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And that stayed with me.
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Uh I was um since I was maybe 10 years old, you know, that stayed with me.
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Interestingly, I never thought of myself projecting, you could say, oh I projected myself in the future as a member of the Club of Rome, not at all.
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And um I followed what the club was doing over time, but I never I never thought in when I'm a grown-up, I want to be a member of the club of Rome.
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And then I didn't find exactly um I had a background in um in uh engineering, aerospace engineering from the Polytechnic University of Madrid.
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I was good at a typical uh student, good in math, you know, and um and in order to do something practical but also based on mathematics, I studied engineering.
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I started some uh my first career was in academia, but but actually because I was proposed to become a lecturer and researcher at the university, at the Polytechnic University Madrid, I said, well, why not?
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Let's try this.
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And I was there for a while, and the key moment, one of the key moments in my life was when I realized, but I don't see myself forever in academia.
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I could have stayed, many people around me, I mean, most, if not all of the people around me, were saying, but I mean, you are in the at a good university, you should stay there, you know, and you should do your academic career, and that's it.
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I really felt, but I felt in the body, I mean, and this is also a lesson for everybody, you know, that the important moments in your life, they have to be embodied, you know, because it's not rational, it's uh it's not your thinking, it's the whole body who says, who is saying to you, Carlos, you should try something else, you know.
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Reality is a possibility.
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What about something different?
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And then I ended up being for a while a consultant in the space of digital technologies and actually creating my own company and which became uh with time a group of companies.
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So I I learned a lot from that.
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Uh I still have this experience as a background, also in some of the things we are doing together, Michael.
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You know, when I when we speak about business and organizations and the transformation of organizations, I've been in that myself before as a CEO, and I know some of the substance of what organizations, business organizations are made of, the stuff they are made of, you know, which is not only the concepts but the practical context.
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And I was uh that for uh more than 20 years, an entrepreneur, a manager or CEO of an organization.
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We became, as I said, a group of uh companies.
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And then uh second uh or third um crucial moment, the economy collapsed uh in 2008.
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Oh uh 2008 long crisis, 2008-2011.
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We survived to that.
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We managed to survive and even to expand internationally, and so, but we didn't escape completely to the crisis, and at a certain moment in the market in which we were active, there was uh trends of concentration that made very difficult for us to continue operating.
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And exactly at that moment, a number of uh serendipities happened in my life.
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So if you ask me if you I believe in destiny, many years ago I would have said no.
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Now I know that destiny exists because through a number of it would be too long to explain, but really serendipitous moments, I was engaged with a gentleman who asked me, but Carlos, do you know what the club of Rome is?
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After many, many years, you know, in in between my first exposure to the Club of Rome to that moment, and I said, okay, and this gentleman is a vice president of the Spanish Association of the Club of Rome.
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And then I I got engaged, and then I decided, okay, this is destiny.
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This is what people call the universe has decided that from my mother to here, decades, an arc of decades in between.
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I have to give all my enthusiasm and my energy.
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This was uh uh 12 years ago, and I started, and and I felt also because uh my research at the university was uh very much nurtured by uh by system dynamics, by uh, you know, by the some of the intellectual masters of the work that the Club of Rome has been doing.
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So I had, of course, natural resonances declared I surrendered.
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I surrendered to the evidence, you know.
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This is what you have to do.
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Okay, let's do it.
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You know, that's that's how it worked.
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Excellent, excellent.
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Well, thank you for sharing that.
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And I think there are a couple of things that you have been doing as the Secretary General, which is sort of a yeah, sort of a position that's been in place and then sort of renewed in different forms.
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And I think there is a as a strategic uh element that is uh maybe something that you can share in terms of how the club is engaging now versus before, and how maybe yeah, other groups can be connected to some of the activities.
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I think specifically around the notion of transformation.
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There was a lot of warning, warning, scientific reports out, but right now I see that the club in itself is using the platform to engage many other groups in sort of uh similar ambitions and really create that social system field uh for that transformation to be occurring.
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So maybe you can just share a couple of things that stand out for you and and and yeah.
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The first is actually the realization that uh we don't have a recipe, a universal recipe for transformation, you know.
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You know, we don't have it's not a strict guideline, you know, for to say you want transformation in the linear way of thinking, which is useful for many things, but not for everything, and particularly not for anything which is related to living beings, including humans, of course.
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In the linear way of thinking, you would say, let's define where I want to get, you know, I'm here, I want to get there, and let's define the 10 steps, you know, to get there, and and measure, you know, along the line which KPIs I will use to measure that uh that uh, etc.
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Let's say human societies, life doesn't work that way.
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Life in general, and in particular, human societies don't work that way.
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This is something we have learned.
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I think we knew that since the beginning of times, if you look at uh ancient uh epistemologies, this is very clear.
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But even in modern times, you know, more uh linear perspective uh systems thinkers have been like the Batesons, you know, Gregory Bateson, Nora Bateson, Ilya Prigogin, many others have questioned that idea and said, no, no, formations are real shifts where you have a critical point, you get to a critical point, and and we think that we are at a critical point for in the history of humanity.
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And then this actually opens the coming back to your uh the title of the program, this opens the space of possibilities.
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Because what is is not able to absorb the tensions that it creates.
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The system in which we live is generating much more tensions than it is able to absorb, and then you have criticality, and then it's the moment to say, okay, this open this opening of the space of possibilities is a double-edged sword.
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Because at this moment, and this is very personal interpretation, if you react from fear, you will be like in a Greek tragedy, right?
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In a Greek tragedy, you have an oracle making a very bad prediction about something which will happen in the future, and the protagonist reacts to that, trying to avoid that, but since he reacts from fear, he actually accelerates.
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You know, he he makes the tragedy self-fulfilled.
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And I have a feeling that overall we are pretty much living one of those moments in which you have to realize, oh no, no, if we react the way we are reacting, we are only going to accelerate the loss that we were supposed to be preventing.
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And then we have to react from somewhere else, and if it is not fear, of course, it's love and hope, you know.
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And and these interestingly, these maps with the origins, the history of the Club of Rome, through if you complete the the side of No Limits to Growth, which is the most well known, it was a big success, editorial success.
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You complete that with the side of No Limits to Learning seven years later, which was saying, guys, the potential of humans to learn is much, much bigger than we imagine.
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We just have to realize that there is a human gap, the gap between our capacity to act and our capacity to understand the consequences of our actions, of understanding complexity and deal with it.
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And yet, if you work, if you learn in a participatory, anticipatory, integrative way, you can develop a capacity of humans to learn and to learn how to learn.
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And this is where the difference comes in.
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So a lot of what we are doing today in the Club of Rome is about this, about in particular the program that I created, the fifth element, is about how do we put at the at the center of our approach the human capacity to learn, which has to be collective.
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This is not about a few.
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I know that the Club of Rome is a small group of very smart people, but let's not cheat ourselves that we can be able to find, you know, the recipes for transformation, give that recipe to others and they will execute because this will not happen.
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We have to create the conditions to inspire others very different, and to inspire others along these idea of the emergence, the emergence of positive alternatives to positive futures where people collectively develop their capacity to learn.
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In practical terms, this also means that the big uh change that we are implementing in the club is this idea of the club as a platform, as you mentioned, you know, not as a place, not as an ivory tower of people delivering what has to be done, but rather as a space for convening many others of all sectors, of all sectors of life, and convening them together, you know, of business, academia, public policy, social uh civil society, sorry, and convening them and to inspire, you know, to catalyze new possibilities, new actions, new ways of of transformation.
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Sorry, that's been a no no, that's fantastic.
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Yeah, yeah, no, and I think that that's great.
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So that sort of gives us the arc from your personal commitment, your family's background to the current work that you're supporting and that you're dedicating yourself to.
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As you said, this is like the universe calling and you're surrendering.
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And I think there is a lot to that, at least that resonates in my life.
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There are certain things you you can't plan for, you don't structure, you allow, or you don't allow, but you you have a potential to sense maybe not just in your head, right?
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Maybe it's a more holistic concept of knowing.
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And I think that includes the doing and the system transformation and the being and the becoming, the development that you're also speaking about in terms of learning.
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Um, I think that we currently still have learning as a very cognitive process.
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But I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to the ambition of the fifth element that you're saying that you you started through the club and see like what what are the opportunities that develop through that inquiry, that conversation, through that project.
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And then I want to go to the idea of transforming business education, business education for flourishing later on.
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Okay.
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Yeah, so on the on the fifth element, it's the the realization uh of uh these uh ideas, you know, that uh it's not a program to tell people to what they have to do.
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It's a program looking mostly looking at how cultural transformations can happen.
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Cultural transformations are the most important ones, and they are also the most uh tricky ones if you look at them from a uh a perspective of linear of linear thinking.
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First of all, the name of the program, because people ask me why did you call that the fifth element, it's the deliberate tribute to ancient knowledge.
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In the in the traditions of modernity, of Western modernity, we have ignored or and in many cases destroyed other cultures, and in particular, you know, neglected uh uh cultures that we consider pre-scientific.
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It's so interesting to see how many, how much of modern science is actually rediscovering what you were knew since the very beginning.
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For instance, something that you you made reference to in a way, which is we have no decisions without emotions.
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So this is what modern neurobiology says, and uh I'm always uh fascinated by this, by modern science rediscovering what we know since the beginning.
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So the idea was to make a tribute to ancient traditions which speak about try to understand life, you know, saying, oh, there are four key elements, which if you think about them are really key: air, water, um, fire, and earth.
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And those are the elements that you need to grow life.
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But, or and they are not the the only ones.
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Uh the there is something else, the quintessential element, the spirit, uh prana in the Indian traditions, energy qi in the Chinese traditions, and so on, which I think is my interpretation is that it is life itself, and life cannot be defined, you know, without referring to life.
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The same as good things in life you cannot plan them, what you were saying.
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The best thing in life you cannot define them, or try to define life or love without referring to life and love, you know.
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So it is this tribute, you know, saying we want to weave together all, which is one of the big messages of No Limits to Learning, we want to weave together all the knowledge, traditional knowledge, traditional science together with modern science.
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And do that for what?
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To create a space where unexpected transformations could start happening by bringing in, and and the program addresses the evolution of education, the evolution of uh the role of science and innovation for society, the role of young generations, and so on and so on.
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Also the role of how do we relate, let's say, the Western world with other worlds that we have been uh again neglecting, you know, with other worldviews, but also with the reality, the world of today is uh from a Western point of view is much more complex than it was.
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I would say it was always complex.
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We were just being able to ignore it.
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But how do we relate with uh the worldviews and the realities of Africa, Latin America?
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The originary cultures, uh, China, the Asias, and so on.
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So it's also there.
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And a key element I would say is what if we take as a starting point the real challenges that real people address in real places, you know, as a place-based approach rather than a completely abstract thing at a global level.
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So climate change, you know, climate science is global, yes, but the challenges are lived locally and are very different from one place to another.
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What if we use that as a driver around which you bring in capacities, you bring in different sectors, but also different disciplines, different sources of knowledge to work together on the challenge and to work together on the transformation, you know, on developing new responses.
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And and in part, I remember you sharing this work around new civilization, emerging civilization.
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I'm just checking yes with you, like in where where do you see that tension?
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Where do you see the opportunity there?
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And and how can we how can we square away, let's say, the ambition of having a global, universal approach that is place-based, that acknowledges what I would call the dignity of the locality, the place, the space, the people involved, the the net, the bioregion, so to speak, but also allows for a connectivity that is necessary at this point.
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If you talk about the Nova Sphere or this idea of us as a connected system as well, that we need to coordinate to address these challenges that address that impact us all, no matter how different maybe the local impact is, it is something that we all share.
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So, what's what's your take on that tension, navigating it, managing it, approaching it from that new civilization perspective?
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So it's all about, you rightly said, it's all about dignifying, redignifying places and people, you know, and people in places.
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Why built on the actually on something that has a scientific grounding, which is we don't have so many universal laws.
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And uh and it would be even questionable if science is about establishing universal laws, because for instance, if you look at physics, you know, which is the reference science in its methods and its outcomes, in its achievements, it has never been about universal laws, because every time uh that science has proven oh, but this what we thought was a universal law is not working in this particular context.
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Look at the evolution of paradigms from classical mechanics to quantum mechanics, you know, to quantum theory today.
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So it's a realization.
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When we say universal, let's be cautious, also because some manifestations, some regularities in nature can be considered quasi-universal, like uh gravity or the laws of thermodynamics.
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And at the same time, the expressions of life are completely different from one place to another.
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There is not a central point of coordination of life of a planet.
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There is not an HQ, life that doesn't exist.
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It's all over the place, so it's the North Sphere, yes, but the north sphere doesn't have a center.
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You know, it's uh all connected, you can call it mycelium if you wish.
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There are many metaphors coming, but it doesn't have a center.
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And at the same time, we humans we have invented institutions which have a center.
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So how do we, as you ask, how do we combine these different levels?
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Well, by starting redignifying the local level.
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Um typically we say, you know, top-down or bottom-up approach.
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I'm sorry, we have to change the meaning of these words because if anything, people and places, people and ecosystems cannot be the bottom.
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You know, they have to be the top to which the rest is serving.
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The institutions should be there to serve the people and the planet.
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And uh and then you start reconsidering the role of the of the different institutions at the different levels in a completely different manner.
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It's not that you can focus only on what is local and you can ignore what is global because the, as you said, the global has impact.
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Some of the things that are being done in Silicon Valley has impact uh everywhere, almost everywhere.
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We cannot ignore that.
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But it's a change in the priorities given to the different scales.
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It requires also a strategy.
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So the the idea of emerging new civilizations was a bet about the fact that a lot of experiments are happening at local levels, a lot of new realities are happening at local levels.
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And maybe those were the seeds of um of new civilizations.
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At the same time, recognizing that a country like China has adopted the goal of ecological civilization, you know, and in that respect, they are not moving only at local levels, you know, they are adopting that as a as a civilization of their own, you know.
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Obviously, it's complex, but let me just add one more thing.
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I don't believe in this type of uh things that we discuss, you know.
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I don't believe in the scaling up, I don't believe in the take uh something which works somewhere and we copy it and we apply everywhere with the same recipe applying for billions of people.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.720
But of course, we need dissemination.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:23.279
But nature has many mechanisms for dissemination which are not scaling up, you know.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.480
Think of all the mechanisms of pollination.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:56.880
So I use much more the word uh talk about dissemination, pollination is a better metaphor, I think, than scaling up because one thing can be shared with from place A to place B and to many other places without betraying the the essence of the original response, but that can be useful for challenges in other places in a much more horizontal way, if you wish.
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:05.839
I love the idea of the pollination metaphor and and it's still sort of like a distribution that can be enabled.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.519
I think there's oftentimes the idea is like, okay, scaling has this idea of we can do something about it.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:16.559
We have some kind of impact and influence, and there's always these impact logics and models and all of that.
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.079
Everybody sort of follows that.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.599
They are also pretty linear.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:25.119
I I do see this, I think, in in many of the traditional conversations around management.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:29.519
And of course, my plug is always like in the end, we always manage and we lead.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:35.279
And the question of how we address the issues that we're facing are a question of how well we manage.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:51.039
And I think the current dominant management model is the one that allows us only to see this dominant planning, organizing, controlling mechanism that will then exactly just as you described, sort of take life out of it, take life out of the equation.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:58.480
And so it's not appropriate for managing the quality of life on this planet.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.039
So I I think this is really fascinating.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:27.279
I I want to see like what are some of the highlights that you that you have sort of distilled for yourself from that work, and and then go to the conversation around transforming business, because I think that's where we sort of also see there is maybe a quote-unquote impact lever or a a pollinator that's not necessarily pollinating the enabling conditions for life to continue.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:33.599
So this is a uh re-proposing of organizations, you know, actually.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.319
But it's not uh many people talk about the purpose of organizations.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:39.519
I think it makes sense.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.680
And at the same time, I often feel it's formulated in a very linear, linear ways.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:52.000
Again, you know, like our goal is this, you know, let's get there, and this is a linear path, you know.
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:58.640
I think uh human organizations are learning organizations all the time.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:07.440
What we have to question, so transformation of business for me goes beyond, of course, beyond the nice to have.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:12.880
I mean, until now, these discussions have been largely influenced.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:26.480
You certainly know one of these graphic representations, which I think has been very harmful, drawing a triangle with economy, society, nature, or economy, society, environment.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:31.440
No, the three the these three dimensions.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.599
And it the first time you see that, it looks nice, you know.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.440
It looks, ah, yes, uh, taking into account the three important dimensions.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:47.759
I think this is terribly misleading because the three dimensions are not separate.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:55.359
So you are cheating, uh you are cheating yourself, you know, when you say on one side there is economy, in the other society.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.559
Try to draw borders between them, it's impossible.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:05.200
And it conveys the it carries the implicit assumption that first you take care of the economy, which is typically on the top.
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:12.559
Then if the economy goes well, you take care of society, and then in the end you take care of the environment, you know.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:20.160
Um, this is not uh this is not the substance of transformation.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:32.240
I think the the substance, if we want to really be substantial, it cannot be transformation, cannot be a nice to have, but it cannot be the matter of compliance.
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:45.279
It has to be a real re-elaboration of what is the role of an organization in that society in a living system?
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:55.519
What are its uh relationships, and in particular, how do we introduce, I say we leave existential threats?
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:05.039
What do we need to make people understand that they are existential for everybody and also for all organizations?
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:13.759
And then what would you consider doing if you consider that what is existential for humanity is also existential for your organization?
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:25.359
And from there, how do you how do you integrate the elements of those existential threats and basically the relationship with humans but also the relationship with the ecosystem?
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.160
How do you introduce that in your strategy?
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.480
This has to get into the strategy room, as you know, Michael.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:34:06.079
The rest can be nice, incremental, modifications, changes, maybe up to 20 or 30 percent of what is needed, but until it becomes an element of the strategy of a business to provide, you know, whatever the business does in a context where it takes care of um the life of people and the planet all together, until that happens, we don't have a real transformation.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:23.840
Yeah, and I think that's sort of the the challenge at the at the core is like getting those metaphors, getting those images right, getting the relationships right, understanding how we have to organize, not just in business, I think you're saying it's like really like it's an organizational challenge.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.760
And in many ways, I believe we're trying to use the tools from the past that caused many of these issues to try to solve them.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:43.599
And uh I'm curious your take, because we have been working together on this idea of transforming business and education and business education for human and planetary flourishing.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.360
What are your takeaways there?
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:53.199
What do you see as the opportunities there, especially also the role for business and what the club might be able to facilitate as a platform?
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:54.960
Um, as you mentioned before.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.360
What are what are some of the things that you see?
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:08.559
One of the things I see is um the role of research and innovation, you know, because this is a key element of change.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:11.280
Transformations are happening all the time, you know.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:30.079
Uh maybe they are not going in the direction that is needed to avoid the tragedy, but a transformation and a big driver of that is research and innovation, you know, by uh also by not only but by public actors, but also by private actors.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:39.920
The world is investing roughly$2.5 trillion annually in research and innovation, and a big, big part of that is by companies, you know.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:46.079
A big part is by more than half is by governments, but the rest is by companies.
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:58.880
For both, my question is are you losing your investment in research and innovation to to increase your contribution to a good future for humans on the planet?
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:09.280
Are you just you nowadays AI has become like weather for the British, you know, a topical subject for conversation?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.719
Everybody's talking about AI, but what was AI for?
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:28.239
Are we using AI for regeneration, for designing better solutions, uh more adapted, more circular solutions, more adapted to the ecology where we live and so on?
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:34.559
Or are we using it for to accelerate the unsustainable trends of consumerism?
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:36.719
I want you to consume more.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:51.840
Massively, AI has been massively being used to sell you, Michael Pearson, we know everything about you and uh and what you consume and who you are and who is your family, etc.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:52.320
etc.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.760
And we will target you, we'll bombard you with options to consume more.
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:07.039
So this re-proposing of some of the strong instruments that businesses have in their hands is one element.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:20.320
Another element I would say um is the status of the company in society, meaning, in particular, meaning what is your timescale?
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.679
You know, in what timescale are you acting?
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:27.760
When do you expect results from what you are doing?
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:37.599
And unfortunately, the mainstream type of management of big corporations is still very much about the earnings per share of next quarter, right?
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:58.400
While it would be ideal if we were able to transform that, that companies, organizations start thinking in the next quarter of century, the next generation, what will be my contribution, the contribution of this company to coming generations.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:17.119
And uh this is not easy when your corporation is uh on uh on a public market, you know, most of the shares are uh listed on a on a on a stock market, you know, and maybe this is a reflection we have to make from the experience of the Club of Rome.
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:24.079
We have also, as you know, some uh business leaders in the membership and through them also access to others.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:37.280
There are people who are seriously concerned about these questions of what is my time scale, for whom am I working, you know, for the next quarter or for the next uh generations.
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.440
Because it's uh the question of what is value.
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:51.440
People tend to say, well, in the end it's about uh the PL and the bottom line has to be profitable, etc.
00:38:52.639 --> 00:39:02.639
Well, but the bottom line is not physical quantity, you know, is not the same as measuring the temperature today.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:08.239
Uh is not something that is objectifiable as a physical quantity.
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:20.400
It depends on the conventions, on human conventions, you know, and and depending on if you integrate externalities or not, the bottom line can be positive or not.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:38.960
So we have to recognize that those PL, those benefits are dependent on human conventions, and human conventions depend on the mental framing from which we design and decide and take them.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.280
Uh, and particularly this question of time.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:46.480
I mean, uh relationship to time to me, I think is a is a critical one.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:40:00.639
Yeah, so there's lots to unpack here, and I I I know we will have the opportunity to have more conversations around this as we're sort of connecting on this project to transform business education and business education for human and planetary flourishing.
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:17.199
Unfortunately, I have to leave in a moment, but I want to give you the question of Marcel Proust to his friends and give you an option to choose from one to 35 as a closing to this conversation, which I think is just an intermittent uh scenario.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.519
But uh any any number that sticks out for you.
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.760
Uh let's try uh 12, you know, for instance.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:29.760
I like this number.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:30.960
Okay, all right.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:36.400
So here is what is the quality you like most you most like in a man?
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:38.719
Okay, there you go.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:42.159
What is the quality I like most in a man?
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.679
Yes, I would say attention, being in the present moment, you know.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:54.480
Also from a woman, by the way, but uh my response woman would be different.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:24.880
Sorry to say, but uh I appreciate very much the people who are really in who are really present, who are meaning also they are really able to listen and to engage in conversations, wonderful, and that's um that quality is available to everybody, but that doesn't mean it is practiced by it, as you know well, it's not practiced by everybody.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.000
It's a challenge, right, for all of us, I think.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:40.559
And it's uh especially yes, yes, particularly because of course we are totally disturbed and uh dispersed and uh bombarded, you know, by too much uh information all the time.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.480
Carlos, thank you so much.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.840
Again, this is sort of a stepping stone for more conversations.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:51.920
I'm really uh pleased that we have this moment and that we can share it with the rest of the world.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:42:03.840
And so if there are other things that that uh that show up for you in a way that you want to share right now about the work that you're doing, that the club is doing, that other people that are listening to this can maybe connect to.
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:09.199
Well, just another comment on the transformation of business.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:13.519
You know, it's not end of business education.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:19.280
I think the again this cannot happen in silos.
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:39.360
So my recurrent concern is that we live in silos, academia is a silo, business is a silo, finance is a silo, and there are strong uh silo logics for which for a business doing what they do makes sense.
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:51.679
Since I've been a CEO of a business, I know what it means, you know, and you feel like, well, there is no no option, you know, we have to do this, and let's not talk about anything else or about transformation or whatever.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:15.760
And I think the way to overcome that inertia process of transformation is actually by opening a silo, so it has to be ecosystemic transformations, connecting the businesses with the places, the communities they serve, the places, the other actors, connecting the business schools the same, you know.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:30.480
They they have also their own uh siloed uh logic defined by a number of parameters, including, as you know, the ranking, the ranking lists, the certification processes, the accreditation processes, etc.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:41.920
But if you if you open a little bit the the bubble and you connect that to, well, but what is the logic of transformation in businesses for the future?
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:50.960
What is the logic of transformation in a city, in the city where uh that business school is uh is located, you know, the city, the region, etc.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:58.800
I'm convinced that the learning, uh all learning is mutual, and and uh so that will be a challenge for the project.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:43:59.760
We are both.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:08.159
Involved, you know, but I think this is the way forward, you know, to think of them businesses, business schools as part of ecosystems.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.599
Right, right, right, right.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.519
And that's a leverage point, you know, that we can invoke.
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:14.400
Wonderful.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.039
Wonderful.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:16.800
Well, thank you so much for your dedication.
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:25.039
Thank you for surrendering to that moment and that opportunity, and also for your service and for this time, uh, Carlos, to be continued.
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.719
Thank you so much again.
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:07.519
This is reality proof possibility, an exploration of human ingenuity.
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:34.079
This is reality proofs possibility, and I'm Michael Pearson, and I'm honored to be here today with Carlos Alvarez Pereira, the Secretary General of the Club of Rome.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:46.560
Carlos brings a rare combination of systems thinking, scientific insight, entrepreneurial experience, and moral imagination to one of the defining questions of our time.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:52.399
How can humanity create equitable well-being within a healthy biosphere?
00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:58.880
The Club of Rome has long challenged the dominant assumption that endless material expansion can continue on a finite planet.
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:08.000
Under Carlos' leadership, that legacy is being carried forward with renewed urgency, not only as a warning, but also as an invitation to transformation.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:20.239
What makes Carlos an important voice for this conversation is his insistence that our ecological, social, and economic crises are also crises of imagination, culture, and worldview.
00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:29.040
He invites us to ask deeper questions like what kind of development truly deserves life, and what forms of innovation protect dignity and promote flourishing?
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:35.200
And how might we organize societies and institutions around well-being, responsibility, and planetary health?
00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:46.000
So today we invite you to reflect with us on the deeper meaning of reality proves possibility, that another way is already emerging, and that together we can do better than this.
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.040
So thank you, Carlos, for taking the time for being here with me.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.920
And the initial prompt is just like, what's your take on reality proves possibility?
00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:55.120
We can do better than this.
00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:57.680
Well, first of all, thank you, Michael, for inviting me.
00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:59.760
It's a real honor and a pleasure.
00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:09.599
And I love the title, you know, Reality Proves Possibility, because it breaks with what I call the imperialism of the present.
00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:34.639
The idea that what we live in is the only possible way of living, you know, that everything that happened before, instead of being as it is, the result of contingencies and the result of many human decisions and many human actions, would be like in a magical way, the only possible present that we have.
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:50.639
We have to invoke, uh, as you said, you know, the power of imagination, and to say together with this present, there could be many other options for the present, and then that opens the space for imagining different futures, you know.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.599
So I like the title very much.
00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:54.400
Wonderful.
00:02:54.479 --> 00:03:02.800
And you've been dedicated to this inquiry for a long time, but you've also had several sort of professional lives and episodes.
00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:08.080
So I invite you to share with the listeners also like what has gotten you to the place that you are.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:12.879
What are some of the key crucible moments for you and your own development?
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.039
If you don't mind just sharing a couple that you find.
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:28.639
No, I mean there is uh this anecdote I've told several times, and I'm very pleased to share, and to give a tribute to my mother.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:45.919
Mothers are, of course, the most important persons in our lives, at least at the beginning, but in my case, also explains my relationship to the club of Rome because she was an early fan of the when the limits to growth uh appeared.
00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:57.039
You know, she was an economist and uh and she was like really provoked intellectually by uh what the club of Rome was saying in the limits to growth.
00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:07.599
And I was a kid at the time, I couldn't understand what it was about, but I was feeling the passion of my mother when she was talking about it.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:09.840
And that stayed with me.
00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:16.639
Uh I was um since I was maybe 10 years old, you know, that stayed with me.
00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:27.519
Interestingly, I never thought of myself projecting, you could say, oh I projected myself in the future as a member of the Club of Rome, not at all.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:40.079
And um I followed what the club was doing over time, but I never I never thought in when I'm a grown-up, I want to be a member of the club of Rome.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:54.319
And then I didn't find exactly um I had a background in um in uh engineering, aerospace engineering from the Polytechnic University of Madrid.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:07.439
I was good at a typical uh student, good in math, you know, and um and in order to do something practical but also based on mathematics, I studied engineering.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:22.160
I started some uh my first career was in academia, but but actually because I was proposed to become a lecturer and researcher at the university, at the Polytechnic University Madrid, I said, well, why not?
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.519
Let's try this.
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:37.600
And I was there for a while, and the key moment, one of the key moments in my life was when I realized, but I don't see myself forever in academia.
00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:52.879
I could have stayed, many people around me, I mean, most, if not all of the people around me, were saying, but I mean, you are in the at a good university, you should stay there, you know, and you should do your academic career, and that's it.
00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:16.160
I really felt, but I felt in the body, I mean, and this is also a lesson for everybody, you know, that the important moments in your life, they have to be embodied, you know, because it's not rational, it's uh it's not your thinking, it's the whole body who says, who is saying to you, Carlos, you should try something else, you know.
00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.560
Reality is a possibility.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.800
What about something different?
00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:36.560
And then I ended up being for a while a consultant in the space of digital technologies and actually creating my own company and which became uh with time a group of companies.
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.399
So I I learned a lot from that.
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:47.680
Uh I still have this experience as a background, also in some of the things we are doing together, Michael.
00:06:47.759 --> 00:07:15.519
You know, when I when we speak about business and organizations and the transformation of organizations, I've been in that myself before as a CEO, and I know some of the substance of what organizations, business organizations are made of, the stuff they are made of, you know, which is not only the concepts but the practical context.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:24.079
And I was uh that for uh more than 20 years, an entrepreneur, a manager or CEO of an organization.
00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.759
We became, as I said, a group of uh companies.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:38.800
And then uh second uh or third um crucial moment, the economy collapsed uh in 2008.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.560
Oh uh 2008 long crisis, 2008-2011.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.800
We survived to that.
00:07:47.759 --> 00:08:09.519
We managed to survive and even to expand internationally, and so, but we didn't escape completely to the crisis, and at a certain moment in the market in which we were active, there was uh trends of concentration that made very difficult for us to continue operating.
00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:15.199
And exactly at that moment, a number of uh serendipities happened in my life.
00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:23.839
So if you ask me if you I believe in destiny, many years ago I would have said no.
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:40.960
Now I know that destiny exists because through a number of it would be too long to explain, but really serendipitous moments, I was engaged with a gentleman who asked me, but Carlos, do you know what the club of Rome is?
00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:55.840
After many, many years, you know, in in between my first exposure to the Club of Rome to that moment, and I said, okay, and this gentleman is a vice president of the Spanish Association of the Club of Rome.
00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.279
And then I I got engaged, and then I decided, okay, this is destiny.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:10.799
This is what people call the universe has decided that from my mother to here, decades, an arc of decades in between.
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:15.360
I have to give all my enthusiasm and my energy.
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:38.639
This was uh uh 12 years ago, and I started, and and I felt also because uh my research at the university was uh very much nurtured by uh by system dynamics, by uh, you know, by the some of the intellectual masters of the work that the Club of Rome has been doing.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:44.320
So I had, of course, natural resonances declared I surrendered.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:47.440
I surrendered to the evidence, you know.
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:49.679
This is what you have to do.
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:51.919
Okay, let's do it.
00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.720
You know, that's that's how it worked.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.320
Excellent, excellent.
00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.600
Well, thank you for sharing that.
00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:06.879
And I think there are a couple of things that you have been doing as the Secretary General, which is sort of a yeah, sort of a position that's been in place and then sort of renewed in different forms.
00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:22.240
And I think there is a as a strategic uh element that is uh maybe something that you can share in terms of how the club is engaging now versus before, and how maybe yeah, other groups can be connected to some of the activities.
00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.440
I think specifically around the notion of transformation.
00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:46.559
There was a lot of warning, warning, scientific reports out, but right now I see that the club in itself is using the platform to engage many other groups in sort of uh similar ambitions and really create that social system field uh for that transformation to be occurring.
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:51.120
So maybe you can just share a couple of things that stand out for you and and and yeah.
00:10:51.519 --> 00:11:00.159
The first is actually the realization that uh we don't have a recipe, a universal recipe for transformation, you know.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:20.320
You know, we don't have it's not a strict guideline, you know, for to say you want transformation in the linear way of thinking, which is useful for many things, but not for everything, and particularly not for anything which is related to living beings, including humans, of course.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:39.360
In the linear way of thinking, you would say, let's define where I want to get, you know, I'm here, I want to get there, and let's define the 10 steps, you know, to get there, and and measure, you know, along the line which KPIs I will use to measure that uh that uh, etc.
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:45.039
Let's say human societies, life doesn't work that way.
00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.480
Life in general, and in particular, human societies don't work that way.
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.240
This is something we have learned.
00:11:52.480 --> 00:12:01.360
I think we knew that since the beginning of times, if you look at uh ancient uh epistemologies, this is very clear.
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:31.360
But even in modern times, you know, more uh linear perspective uh systems thinkers have been like the Batesons, you know, Gregory Bateson, Nora Bateson, Ilya Prigogin, many others have questioned that idea and said, no, no, formations are real shifts where you have a critical point, you get to a critical point, and and we think that we are at a critical point for in the history of humanity.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:39.120
And then this actually opens the coming back to your uh the title of the program, this opens the space of possibilities.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:47.679
Because what is is not able to absorb the tensions that it creates.
00:12:48.080 --> 00:13:07.600
The system in which we live is generating much more tensions than it is able to absorb, and then you have criticality, and then it's the moment to say, okay, this open this opening of the space of possibilities is a double-edged sword.
00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:19.279
Because at this moment, and this is very personal interpretation, if you react from fear, you will be like in a Greek tragedy, right?
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:34.960
In a Greek tragedy, you have an oracle making a very bad prediction about something which will happen in the future, and the protagonist reacts to that, trying to avoid that, but since he reacts from fear, he actually accelerates.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:39.600
You know, he he makes the tragedy self-fulfilled.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:58.080
And I have a feeling that overall we are pretty much living one of those moments in which you have to realize, oh no, no, if we react the way we are reacting, we are only going to accelerate the loss that we were supposed to be preventing.
00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:05.600
And then we have to react from somewhere else, and if it is not fear, of course, it's love and hope, you know.
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:24.720
And and these interestingly, these maps with the origins, the history of the Club of Rome, through if you complete the the side of No Limits to Growth, which is the most well known, it was a big success, editorial success.
00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:40.080
You complete that with the side of No Limits to Learning seven years later, which was saying, guys, the potential of humans to learn is much, much bigger than we imagine.
00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:52.000
We just have to realize that there is a human gap, the gap between our capacity to act and our capacity to understand the consequences of our actions, of understanding complexity and deal with it.
00:14:53.039 --> 00:15:06.159
And yet, if you work, if you learn in a participatory, anticipatory, integrative way, you can develop a capacity of humans to learn and to learn how to learn.
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.480
And this is where the difference comes in.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:30.159
So a lot of what we are doing today in the Club of Rome is about this, about in particular the program that I created, the fifth element, is about how do we put at the at the center of our approach the human capacity to learn, which has to be collective.
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.519
This is not about a few.
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:50.399
I know that the Club of Rome is a small group of very smart people, but let's not cheat ourselves that we can be able to find, you know, the recipes for transformation, give that recipe to others and they will execute because this will not happen.
00:15:50.559 --> 00:16:14.799
We have to create the conditions to inspire others very different, and to inspire others along these idea of the emergence, the emergence of positive alternatives to positive futures where people collectively develop their capacity to learn.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:58.639
In practical terms, this also means that the big uh change that we are implementing in the club is this idea of the club as a platform, as you mentioned, you know, not as a place, not as an ivory tower of people delivering what has to be done, but rather as a space for convening many others of all sectors, of all sectors of life, and convening them together, you know, of business, academia, public policy, social uh civil society, sorry, and convening them and to inspire, you know, to catalyze new possibilities, new actions, new ways of of transformation.
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.759
Sorry, that's been a no no, that's fantastic.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.880
Yeah, yeah, no, and I think that that's great.
00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:14.160
So that sort of gives us the arc from your personal commitment, your family's background to the current work that you're supporting and that you're dedicating yourself to.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.319
As you said, this is like the universe calling and you're surrendering.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.880
And I think there is a lot to that, at least that resonates in my life.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:33.599
There are certain things you you can't plan for, you don't structure, you allow, or you don't allow, but you you have a potential to sense maybe not just in your head, right?
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:36.319
Maybe it's a more holistic concept of knowing.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:44.720
And I think that includes the doing and the system transformation and the being and the becoming, the development that you're also speaking about in terms of learning.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:49.440
Um, I think that we currently still have learning as a very cognitive process.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:18:02.240
But I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to the ambition of the fifth element that you're saying that you you started through the club and see like what what are the opportunities that develop through that inquiry, that conversation, through that project.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:09.599
And then I want to go to the idea of transforming business education, business education for flourishing later on.
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:10.079
Okay.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:24.400
Yeah, so on the on the fifth element, it's the the realization uh of uh these uh ideas, you know, that uh it's not a program to tell people to what they have to do.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:32.079
It's a program looking mostly looking at how cultural transformations can happen.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:44.160
Cultural transformations are the most important ones, and they are also the most uh tricky ones if you look at them from a uh a perspective of linear of linear thinking.
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:55.279
First of all, the name of the program, because people ask me why did you call that the fifth element, it's the deliberate tribute to ancient knowledge.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:15.759
In the in the traditions of modernity, of Western modernity, we have ignored or and in many cases destroyed other cultures, and in particular, you know, neglected uh uh cultures that we consider pre-scientific.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:24.880
It's so interesting to see how many, how much of modern science is actually rediscovering what you were knew since the very beginning.
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:32.640
For instance, something that you you made reference to in a way, which is we have no decisions without emotions.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:43.920
So this is what modern neurobiology says, and uh I'm always uh fascinated by this, by modern science rediscovering what we know since the beginning.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:20:02.960
So the idea was to make a tribute to ancient traditions which speak about try to understand life, you know, saying, oh, there are four key elements, which if you think about them are really key: air, water, um, fire, and earth.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.599
And those are the elements that you need to grow life.
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.920
But, or and they are not the the only ones.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:35.039
Uh the there is something else, the quintessential element, the spirit, uh prana in the Indian traditions, energy qi in the Chinese traditions, and so on, which I think is my interpretation is that it is life itself, and life cannot be defined, you know, without referring to life.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:40.160
The same as good things in life you cannot plan them, what you were saying.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:46.640
The best thing in life you cannot define them, or try to define life or love without referring to life and love, you know.
00:20:46.799 --> 00:21:06.960
So it is this tribute, you know, saying we want to weave together all, which is one of the big messages of No Limits to Learning, we want to weave together all the knowledge, traditional knowledge, traditional science together with modern science.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:09.119
And do that for what?
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:29.440
To create a space where unexpected transformations could start happening by bringing in, and and the program addresses the evolution of education, the evolution of uh the role of science and innovation for society, the role of young generations, and so on and so on.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:47.440
Also the role of how do we relate, let's say, the Western world with other worlds that we have been uh again neglecting, you know, with other worldviews, but also with the reality, the world of today is uh from a Western point of view is much more complex than it was.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:49.759
I would say it was always complex.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.559
We were just being able to ignore it.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.519
But how do we relate with uh the worldviews and the realities of Africa, Latin America?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.480
The originary cultures, uh, China, the Asias, and so on.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.000
So it's also there.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:27.200
And a key element I would say is what if we take as a starting point the real challenges that real people address in real places, you know, as a place-based approach rather than a completely abstract thing at a global level.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:38.960
So climate change, you know, climate science is global, yes, but the challenges are lived locally and are very different from one place to another.
00:22:39.519 --> 00:23:01.039
What if we use that as a driver around which you bring in capacities, you bring in different sectors, but also different disciplines, different sources of knowledge to work together on the challenge and to work together on the transformation, you know, on developing new responses.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:08.160
And and in part, I remember you sharing this work around new civilization, emerging civilization.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:12.960
I'm just checking yes with you, like in where where do you see that tension?
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:14.880
Where do you see the opportunity there?
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:40.960
And and how can we how can we square away, let's say, the ambition of having a global, universal approach that is place-based, that acknowledges what I would call the dignity of the locality, the place, the space, the people involved, the the net, the bioregion, so to speak, but also allows for a connectivity that is necessary at this point.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:57.359
If you talk about the Nova Sphere or this idea of us as a connected system as well, that we need to coordinate to address these challenges that address that impact us all, no matter how different maybe the local impact is, it is something that we all share.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:05.839
So, what's what's your take on that tension, navigating it, managing it, approaching it from that new civilization perspective?
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:16.799
So it's all about, you rightly said, it's all about dignifying, redignifying places and people, you know, and people in places.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:28.640
Why built on the actually on something that has a scientific grounding, which is we don't have so many universal laws.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:57.519
And uh and it would be even questionable if science is about establishing universal laws, because for instance, if you look at physics, you know, which is the reference science in its methods and its outcomes, in its achievements, it has never been about universal laws, because every time uh that science has proven oh, but this what we thought was a universal law is not working in this particular context.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:04.240
Look at the evolution of paradigms from classical mechanics to quantum mechanics, you know, to quantum theory today.
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:05.839
So it's a realization.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:22.559
When we say universal, let's be cautious, also because some manifestations, some regularities in nature can be considered quasi-universal, like uh gravity or the laws of thermodynamics.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:28.480
And at the same time, the expressions of life are completely different from one place to another.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:33.759
There is not a central point of coordination of life of a planet.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:38.960
There is not an HQ, life that doesn't exist.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:45.680
It's all over the place, so it's the North Sphere, yes, but the north sphere doesn't have a center.
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.240
You know, it's uh all connected, you can call it mycelium if you wish.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.680
There are many metaphors coming, but it doesn't have a center.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.319
And at the same time, we humans we have invented institutions which have a center.
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:08.880
So how do we, as you ask, how do we combine these different levels?
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:12.640
Well, by starting redignifying the local level.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.680
Um typically we say, you know, top-down or bottom-up approach.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:28.640
I'm sorry, we have to change the meaning of these words because if anything, people and places, people and ecosystems cannot be the bottom.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:33.680
You know, they have to be the top to which the rest is serving.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.839
The institutions should be there to serve the people and the planet.
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:52.000
And uh and then you start reconsidering the role of the of the different institutions at the different levels in a completely different manner.
00:26:52.240 --> 00:27:00.000
It's not that you can focus only on what is local and you can ignore what is global because the, as you said, the global has impact.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.960
Some of the things that are being done in Silicon Valley has impact uh everywhere, almost everywhere.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.559
We cannot ignore that.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.319
But it's a change in the priorities given to the different scales.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.079
It requires also a strategy.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:31.279
So the the idea of emerging new civilizations was a bet about the fact that a lot of experiments are happening at local levels, a lot of new realities are happening at local levels.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.920
And maybe those were the seeds of um of new civilizations.
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:51.599
At the same time, recognizing that a country like China has adopted the goal of ecological civilization, you know, and in that respect, they are not moving only at local levels, you know, they are adopting that as a as a civilization of their own, you know.
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.880
Obviously, it's complex, but let me just add one more thing.
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:59.119
I don't believe in this type of uh things that we discuss, you know.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:14.160
I don't believe in the scaling up, I don't believe in the take uh something which works somewhere and we copy it and we apply everywhere with the same recipe applying for billions of people.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.720
But of course, we need dissemination.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:23.279
But nature has many mechanisms for dissemination which are not scaling up, you know.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.480
Think of all the mechanisms of pollination.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:56.880
So I use much more the word uh talk about dissemination, pollination is a better metaphor, I think, than scaling up because one thing can be shared with from place A to place B and to many other places without betraying the the essence of the original response, but that can be useful for challenges in other places in a much more horizontal way, if you wish.
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:05.839
I love the idea of the pollination metaphor and and it's still sort of like a distribution that can be enabled.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.519
I think there's oftentimes the idea is like, okay, scaling has this idea of we can do something about it.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:16.559
We have some kind of impact and influence, and there's always these impact logics and models and all of that.
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.079
Everybody sort of follows that.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.599
They are also pretty linear.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:25.119
I I do see this, I think, in in many of the traditional conversations around management.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:29.519
And of course, my plug is always like in the end, we always manage and we lead.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:35.279
And the question of how we address the issues that we're facing are a question of how well we manage.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:51.039
And I think the current dominant management model is the one that allows us only to see this dominant planning, organizing, controlling mechanism that will then exactly just as you described, sort of take life out of it, take life out of the equation.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:58.480
And so it's not appropriate for managing the quality of life on this planet.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.039
So I I think this is really fascinating.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:27.279
I I want to see like what are some of the highlights that you that you have sort of distilled for yourself from that work, and and then go to the conversation around transforming business, because I think that's where we sort of also see there is maybe a quote-unquote impact lever or a a pollinator that's not necessarily pollinating the enabling conditions for life to continue.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:33.599
So this is a uh re-proposing of organizations, you know, actually.
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.319
But it's not uh many people talk about the purpose of organizations.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:39.519
I think it makes sense.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.680
And at the same time, I often feel it's formulated in a very linear, linear ways.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:52.000
Again, you know, like our goal is this, you know, let's get there, and this is a linear path, you know.
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:58.640
I think uh human organizations are learning organizations all the time.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:07.440
What we have to question, so transformation of business for me goes beyond, of course, beyond the nice to have.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:12.880
I mean, until now, these discussions have been largely influenced.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:26.480
You certainly know one of these graphic representations, which I think has been very harmful, drawing a triangle with economy, society, nature, or economy, society, environment.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:31.440
No, the three the these three dimensions.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.599
And it the first time you see that, it looks nice, you know.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.440
It looks, ah, yes, uh, taking into account the three important dimensions.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:47.759
I think this is terribly misleading because the three dimensions are not separate.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:55.359
So you are cheating, uh you are cheating yourself, you know, when you say on one side there is economy, in the other society.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.559
Try to draw borders between them, it's impossible.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:05.200
And it conveys the it carries the implicit assumption that first you take care of the economy, which is typically on the top.
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:12.559
Then if the economy goes well, you take care of society, and then in the end you take care of the environment, you know.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:20.160
Um, this is not uh this is not the substance of transformation.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:32.240
I think the the substance, if we want to really be substantial, it cannot be transformation, cannot be a nice to have, but it cannot be the matter of compliance.
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:45.279
It has to be a real re-elaboration of what is the role of an organization in that society in a living system?
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:55.519
What are its uh relationships, and in particular, how do we introduce, I say we leave existential threats?
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:05.039
What do we need to make people understand that they are existential for everybody and also for all organizations?
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:13.759
And then what would you consider doing if you consider that what is existential for humanity is also existential for your organization?
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:25.359
And from there, how do you how do you integrate the elements of those existential threats and basically the relationship with humans but also the relationship with the ecosystem?
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.160
How do you introduce that in your strategy?
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.480
This has to get into the strategy room, as you know, Michael.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:34:06.079
The rest can be nice, incremental, modifications, changes, maybe up to 20 or 30 percent of what is needed, but until it becomes an element of the strategy of a business to provide, you know, whatever the business does in a context where it takes care of um the life of people and the planet all together, until that happens, we don't have a real transformation.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:23.840
Yeah, and I think that's sort of the the challenge at the at the core is like getting those metaphors, getting those images right, getting the relationships right, understanding how we have to organize, not just in business, I think you're saying it's like really like it's an organizational challenge.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:31.760
And in many ways, I believe we're trying to use the tools from the past that caused many of these issues to try to solve them.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:43.599
And uh I'm curious your take, because we have been working together on this idea of transforming business and education and business education for human and planetary flourishing.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.360
What are your takeaways there?
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:53.199
What do you see as the opportunities there, especially also the role for business and what the club might be able to facilitate as a platform?
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:54.960
Um, as you mentioned before.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.360
What are what are some of the things that you see?
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:08.559
One of the things I see is um the role of research and innovation, you know, because this is a key element of change.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:11.280
Transformations are happening all the time, you know.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:30.079
Uh maybe they are not going in the direction that is needed to avoid the tragedy, but a transformation and a big driver of that is research and innovation, you know, by uh also by not only but by public actors, but also by private actors.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:39.920
The world is investing roughly$2.5 trillion annually in research and innovation, and a big, big part of that is by companies, you know.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:46.079
A big part is by more than half is by governments, but the rest is by companies.
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:58.880
For both, my question is are you losing your investment in research and innovation to to increase your contribution to a good future for humans on the planet?
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:09.280
Are you just you nowadays AI has become like weather for the British, you know, a topical subject for conversation?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.719
Everybody's talking about AI, but what was AI for?
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:28.239
Are we using AI for regeneration, for designing better solutions, uh more adapted, more circular solutions, more adapted to the ecology where we live and so on?
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:34.559
Or are we using it for to accelerate the unsustainable trends of consumerism?
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:36.719
I want you to consume more.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:51.840
Massively, AI has been massively being used to sell you, Michael Pearson, we know everything about you and uh and what you consume and who you are and who is your family, etc.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:52.320
etc.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.760
And we will target you, we'll bombard you with options to consume more.
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:07.039
So this re-proposing of some of the strong instruments that businesses have in their hands is one element.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:20.320
Another element I would say um is the status of the company in society, meaning, in particular, meaning what is your timescale?
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.679
You know, in what timescale are you acting?
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:27.760
When do you expect results from what you are doing?
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:37.599
And unfortunately, the mainstream type of management of big corporations is still very much about the earnings per share of next quarter, right?
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:58.400
While it would be ideal if we were able to transform that, that companies, organizations start thinking in the next quarter of century, the next generation, what will be my contribution, the contribution of this company to coming generations.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:17.119
And uh this is not easy when your corporation is uh on uh on a public market, you know, most of the shares are uh listed on a on a on a stock market, you know, and maybe this is a reflection we have to make from the experience of the Club of Rome.
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:24.079
We have also, as you know, some uh business leaders in the membership and through them also access to others.
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:37.280
There are people who are seriously concerned about these questions of what is my time scale, for whom am I working, you know, for the next quarter or for the next uh generations.
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.440
Because it's uh the question of what is value.
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:51.440
People tend to say, well, in the end it's about uh the PL and the bottom line has to be profitable, etc.
00:38:52.639 --> 00:39:02.639
Well, but the bottom line is not physical quantity, you know, is not the same as measuring the temperature today.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:08.239
Uh is not something that is objectifiable as a physical quantity.
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:20.400
It depends on the conventions, on human conventions, you know, and and depending on if you integrate externalities or not, the bottom line can be positive or not.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:38.960
So we have to recognize that those PL, those benefits are dependent on human conventions, and human conventions depend on the mental framing from which we design and decide and take them.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.280
Uh, and particularly this question of time.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:46.480
I mean, uh relationship to time to me, I think is a is a critical one.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:40:00.639
Yeah, so there's lots to unpack here, and I I I know we will have the opportunity to have more conversations around this as we're sort of connecting on this project to transform business education and business education for human and planetary flourishing.
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:17.199
Unfortunately, I have to leave in a moment, but I want to give you the question of Marcel Proust to his friends and give you an option to choose from one to 35 as a closing to this conversation, which I think is just an intermittent uh scenario.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.519
But uh any any number that sticks out for you.
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.760
Uh let's try uh 12, you know, for instance.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:29.760
I like this number.
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:30.960
Okay, all right.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:36.400
So here is what is the quality you like most you most like in a man?
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:38.719
Okay, there you go.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:42.159
What is the quality I like most in a man?
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.679
Yes, I would say attention, being in the present moment, you know.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:54.480
Also from a woman, by the way, but uh my response woman would be different.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:24.880
Sorry to say, but uh I appreciate very much the people who are really in who are really present, who are meaning also they are really able to listen and to engage in conversations, wonderful, and that's um that quality is available to everybody, but that doesn't mean it is practiced by it, as you know well, it's not practiced by everybody.
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:28.000
It's a challenge, right, for all of us, I think.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:40.559
And it's uh especially yes, yes, particularly because of course we are totally disturbed and uh dispersed and uh bombarded, you know, by too much uh information all the time.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.480
Carlos, thank you so much.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.840
Again, this is sort of a stepping stone for more conversations.
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:51.920
I'm really uh pleased that we have this moment and that we can share it with the rest of the world.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:42:03.840
And so if there are other things that that uh that show up for you in a way that you want to share right now about the work that you're doing, that the club is doing, that other people that are listening to this can maybe connect to.
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:09.199
Well, just another comment on the transformation of business.
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:13.519
You know, it's not end of business education.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:19.280
I think the again this cannot happen in silos.
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:39.360
So my recurrent concern is that we live in silos, academia is a silo, business is a silo, finance is a silo, and there are strong uh silo logics for which for a business doing what they do makes sense.
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:51.679
Since I've been a CEO of a business, I know what it means, you know, and you feel like, well, there is no no option, you know, we have to do this, and let's not talk about anything else or about transformation or whatever.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:15.760
And I think the way to overcome that inertia process of transformation is actually by opening a silo, so it has to be ecosystemic transformations, connecting the businesses with the places, the communities they serve, the places, the other actors, connecting the business schools the same, you know.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:30.480
They they have also their own uh siloed uh logic defined by a number of parameters, including, as you know, the ranking, the ranking lists, the certification processes, the accreditation processes, etc.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:41.920
But if you if you open a little bit the the bubble and you connect that to, well, but what is the logic of transformation in businesses for the future?
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:50.960
What is the logic of transformation in a city, in the city where uh that business school is uh is located, you know, the city, the region, etc.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:58.800
I'm convinced that the learning, uh all learning is mutual, and and uh so that will be a challenge for the project.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:43:59.760
We are both.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:08.159
Involved, you know, but I think this is the way forward, you know, to think of them businesses, business schools as part of ecosystems.
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.599
Right, right, right, right.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.519
And that's a leverage point, you know, that we can invoke.
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:14.400
Wonderful.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.039
Wonderful.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:16.800
Well, thank you so much for your dedication.
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:25.039
Thank you for surrendering to that moment and that opportunity, and also for your service and for this time, uh, Carlos, to be continued.
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.719
Thank you so much again.
