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Welcome to Rainmakers! I'm here with Sean Basler. co CEO of Perkins, Eastman. Welcome, Shawn. Thanks, Carl.
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I'm glad to be here today.
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Well, Sean, you and I met a few weeks back at one of the first networking events being organized post COVID. And you humbly introduced yourself as an architect. And then as I talk to you longer and longer I realize this guy's a freakin Rainmaker and, and so Shawn, how does one go from just so when I say Rainmaker, talk a little bit about how many different offices you have, and and you have, like, 955 employees, according to LinkedIn, that's a lot of people, how does one go from being an architect to being, you know, co CEO of a large architectural firm like you?
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Well, it's a process. And first of all, we all enjoy what we do in architecture is a great profession. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of the basis for what we do, but we've been able to grow our organization, which I think LinkedIn may be a little bit understated, we're closer to 1100 people, right now, in 21, offices across the world. And, and our goal, when we set out years ago, was to what we say redefine what a large architecture firm is, we don't look at ourselves as a success being how many people we have, or how many offices we're really a collection of individuals. And we while we're a large firm, we've always tried to be a firm that acts and feels like a much smaller firm in the markets that we work.
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When you started out, though, was it just you or you and one other person?
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No, this this firm has, has grown over time, it was actually founded about 40 years ago by Brad Perkins and maraging Eastman, and it started out as a 50 person firm, and very quickly grew. And, and over time, you know, people have joined and, and and others have merged. And my story is a little bit different. I had my own firm for about seven, eight years and had offices in New York and Cairo, Egypt and, and in Dubai, and then just, you know, through through growing, we needed a little bit more of a platform.
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And Brad Perkins was a friend of mine, and and at the same time they were growing. So we merged our firms about 13 years ago to really sort of expand the international practice, but also help look at expanding the farm domestically to so and I think then, I mean, we downsized a little bit in 2008 2009. So we were probably about 500. People.
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So we've, we've we've grown considerably over the last 13, 14 years as we continue to to expand.
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Now, I imagine that it starts out with being a really good architect, right? I mean, I presume you've got great architectural skills, but then that's not enough, right? I have a relative as an architect, and, you know, but he's, he's an introvert, he doesn't go out network like I saw you doing the other night. Talk to me a little bit about the other side of the equation, the people dynamics in the human interaction skills, and how you go about building business, you know, attracting new clients, to your firm, attracting new architects to your firm?
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Well, it's, it is all about people, relationships, I mean, I believe it's relationship first, I mean, the company or the brand may give you recognition in the market, but it's all about people and connecting with people and, and they have to trust that, you know, us, you have to, you know, we have to really get to know them. And, and I think that's, that's really important for the success of any architecture firm. I mean, there's so many wonderful, great firms out there, but it's, I think that the really good ones are the ones that that really do build personal relationships, become friends with their clients, and, and understand their, their businesses. More than than just looking at it as as transactional. And and I think what what we've always believed in as a firm is, is a couple things. One is you have to you have to really enjoy what you're doing, you have to really enjoy the people you're working with, you have to get to know them.
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Because that's going to, you know, create the best product.
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But we also believe that that architecture is much more than than form and function. It really has to have an impact on the people and the places that you work. And that includes your clients as well as the people that use the buildings and the places that we design. And
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so when you and I met you knew that I was with Cooley, and you knew that Cooley, it opened up a number of new offices and You assume maybe we're opening up another one being that I was in a town where we don't have an office. But you didn't go into hard sell mode?
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You. You just casually told me.
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Yeah, we do. We do law firms, and he said a few other things about it. And, and maybe you mentioned who you might have worked with or known or something like that. But I, I, since I didn't send a hard sale, like, I'm going to close this guy right here, what is what is the approach because I like that better. I mean, if you started trying to close me, I might have ran away, I wouldn't be interviewing you on the podcast.
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I think that's a good point. Hard sales don't work. I mean, I'm, I'm a believer in building relationships and getting to know people. And and, and maybe we'll have a chance to work together. But it's about getting to know people first and developing that foundation of a friendship and understanding before you're really able to get into business. And and I think that's, that's really, really, really important. And I think that that leads to, you know, a much better network, especially when in a town like Austin, where we do have a new office.
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And it our goal is has been to just meet people and just get to know people and develop a great network and see where we can help each other out. And, and I'm a believer that business will follow them.
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But so when you get when you get Intel, like here's a guy from Cooley in a in a town where they don't have an office, do you go back then and make a note and follow up? Because I'm not the guy? If we if we did put an office somewhere? I'm not the person that that makes those decisions. I don't even know who does to be honest with you. But there is somebody who makes those decisions. And, and so do you take that information and then go backtrack and try to figure out who that is? and reach out? Or do you just have so much work that you don't you know, bother to do that?
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Oh, no, no, no, we definitely would would see where to connect the dots. And, and, and where we would work with somebody and and, and as a firm were really connected to within our, you know, amongst ourselves. So one of the kind of the unique things to think about us is internally we're we're one profit center also. So we were really able to share information and resources across the firm say, Hey, I just met, met these people in this town was this great event I went to are we working with them elsewhere, because maybe there's a small town connection, maybe there's you know, small world connection that that we can bring back and to that relationship that says, hey, we worked together before in this other city or so and so knows, knows your partner or something like that, I believe in sort of building that relationship. And it's not about about trying to sell work, it's about work and work going find other connections, maybe within the firm, where we've, we've we've worked together with, with that firm or know people and and i think that's that's, that's, that's a great way to build the network.
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Yeah. So if, if you were talking about something that was a good lead for, for my firm, for example, I would, I'd be asking me questions, I'd be mentally taking notes of, you know, who else involved what investment bank, what funds, you know, I'm making notes, and then I, you know, excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom. And I'm back on my, on my phone. And I'm and I'm sending emails to attorneys that know these banks and know the funds, and I'm putting a whole set of machinery in place. And you would never even know that I was doing this.
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And I come back and casually talk to you, like we're friends.
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And you don't know that I've just, you know, say, three people on this opportunity just gave me a lead on. I don't know if you do things like that or not. But but that's kind of how I operate. I hope not too many people I do this too. We are listening, right?
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We all do that.
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But again, it's it's more about not not creating a hard sell, but it's about I call them small world connections are the things that we can, you know, kind of learn about but somebody that we just met that that may help make a connection somewhere else our our leverage or relationship that maybe we already have, I think that's that's that's really, really important.
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So when I met you, you were telling me that during COVID, you you wanted to get the heck out of New York City, right? Not the best place to be during COVID. And somehow you ended up in Austin, Texas, and you bought a house here. And so, so how does one just come into town? I'm asking this. I know how I did it. But I'm curious.
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How did you just walk into town?
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You probably don't know us all?
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Well, maybe maybe you have an office here you can leverage How do you begin to make inroads?
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Well, I think the unique thing about Austin is that everybody, most people are from somewhere else. And so it's a little bit different than than other parts of Texas. We do have an office in Dallas, and I would go there quite frequently. I mean, I was there at least every quarter If not, not more, and so We and we have a great portfolio of clients throughout the Texas market and, and people that we know that that have have moved there and, and including working in Austin, so it wasn't completely coming in in cold. So part of what I tried to do is just one reach out to people that we've been working with already. Whether it was in Dallas, or Houston or even in Austin, people that we we know, that have relocated to Austin and that have been there and and we were able to sort of reconnect with so slowly building a network like that.
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And I think just kind of getting out there and meeting people.
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And I think the great thing about Austin, also during COVID was people were still really willing able to, you know, they were willing to meet so you could you could organize a coffee with somebody, you could go out and play golf, you can have a dinner and and you could you could network, I think more than you could in in New York, or places like New York or San Francisco where where things were much more shut down. So I think we had that, that luxury in in Austin and the Texas market where people were, we're cautiously you know, open to meeting and so that that definitely helped over the last year.
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So now you're back in New York, what do you what does post COVID look like for you in terms of being in person versus you know, resume and these types of things,
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I still believe in person is is so important. I think there's a lot more touch points now that we can have, you know, like in in zoom meetings like this, but but nothing beats getting together and meeting somebody face to face and grabbing a coffee or are having lunch or something that nothing replaces that I don't think you can create the personal connection over you know, virtually that you can in person and getting to know somebody there's sort of the whole subtleties I think of human nature when whenever people meet meet in person that you can't pick up virtually. So I I see it being you know, about the same as what it was but maybe a little bit more strategic on how in person meetings are used, I think there's probably a lot more lead up and follow up that could be done. Virtually going forward. But but the in person and getting to know people is so important.
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So what would be some people listening, they say I like this guy, Shawn Bosler, I want to hire his firm, what kind of what kind of companies should reach out to you?
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Well, we work with a lot of different people and our our practice, I always say no project is too small and no project is too large. And that's kind of the interesting thing about what we do, we we really look at add projects for one weekend have a great impact on the people in the places we work they can, they can really have a positive impact on the environment, we can, we can have fun doing it. And and our work really ranges from large new city masterplans and transit to things like we're doing in East Nashville right now, which is the whole new master plan around Nissan stadium and creating a new destination along the east bank there to smaller projects we're doing, you know, 1520 room, boutique hotels and and creating luxury destinations like that. So our work really, you know, extends from commercial and mixed use to the institutional like healthcare and, and education and things like that. And that's, that's a big market for us in taxes that we see both the private side and the public side.
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And Shawn for the younger person who says, I'd like to do what this guy does.
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What advice do you have for for that person getting started out?
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Well, well, I mean, education is the most important and so picking a good school and and doing an insurance internships study abroad is so important. And, and, and keeping an open mind I think architecture is such a wide open field. I mean, you could really have a great career, doing small houses and you know, being a sole practitioner to being like I am running a large firm, and everything in between, I think you really have to enjoy it, I think you have to have to have a passion for for the environment and, and, and, and, and for working in, you know, in a lot of different places with a lot of different people.
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Great advice. Shawn Bosler, co CEO of Perkins, Eastman, thank you so much for joining us today.
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Thanks a lot, Carl.
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Thank you for listening today. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and please share with your friends and rate us, thank you so much.
00:00:08.099 --> 00:00:18.690
Welcome to Rainmakers! I'm here with Sean Basler. co CEO of Perkins, Eastman. Welcome, Shawn. Thanks, Carl.
00:00:15.210 --> 00:00:17.129
I'm glad to be here today.
00:00:17.129 --> 00:00:56.310
Well, Sean, you and I met a few weeks back at one of the first networking events being organized post COVID. And you humbly introduced yourself as an architect. And then as I talk to you longer and longer I realize this guy's a freakin Rainmaker and, and so Shawn, how does one go from just so when I say Rainmaker, talk a little bit about how many different offices you have, and and you have, like, 955 employees, according to LinkedIn, that's a lot of people, how does one go from being an architect to being, you know, co CEO of a large architectural firm like you?
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Well, it's a process. And first of all, we all enjoy what we do in architecture is a great profession. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of the basis for what we do, but we've been able to grow our organization, which I think LinkedIn may be a little bit understated, we're closer to 1100 people, right now, in 21, offices across the world. And, and our goal, when we set out years ago, was to what we say redefine what a large architecture firm is, we don't look at ourselves as a success being how many people we have, or how many offices we're really a collection of individuals. And we while we're a large firm, we've always tried to be a firm that acts and feels like a much smaller firm in the markets that we work.
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When you started out, though, was it just you or you and one other person?
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No, this this firm has, has grown over time, it was actually founded about 40 years ago by Brad Perkins and maraging Eastman, and it started out as a 50 person firm, and very quickly grew. And, and over time, you know, people have joined and, and and others have merged. And my story is a little bit different. I had my own firm for about seven, eight years and had offices in New York and Cairo, Egypt and, and in Dubai, and then just, you know, through through growing, we needed a little bit more of a platform.
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And Brad Perkins was a friend of mine, and and at the same time they were growing. So we merged our firms about 13 years ago to really sort of expand the international practice, but also help look at expanding the farm domestically to so and I think then, I mean, we downsized a little bit in 2008 2009. So we were probably about 500. People.
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So we've, we've we've grown considerably over the last 13, 14 years as we continue to to expand.
00:03:05.069 --> 00:03:39.599
Now, I imagine that it starts out with being a really good architect, right? I mean, I presume you've got great architectural skills, but then that's not enough, right? I have a relative as an architect, and, you know, but he's, he's an introvert, he doesn't go out network like I saw you doing the other night. Talk to me a little bit about the other side of the equation, the people dynamics in the human interaction skills, and how you go about building business, you know, attracting new clients, to your firm, attracting new architects to your firm?
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Well, it's, it is all about people, relationships, I mean, I believe it's relationship first, I mean, the company or the brand may give you recognition in the market, but it's all about people and connecting with people and, and they have to trust that, you know, us, you have to, you know, we have to really get to know them. And, and I think that's, that's really important for the success of any architecture firm. I mean, there's so many wonderful, great firms out there, but it's, I think that the really good ones are the ones that that really do build personal relationships, become friends with their clients, and, and understand their, their businesses. More than than just looking at it as as transactional. And and I think what what we've always believed in as a firm is, is a couple things. One is you have to you have to really enjoy what you're doing, you have to really enjoy the people you're working with, you have to get to know them.
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Because that's going to, you know, create the best product.
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But we also believe that that architecture is much more than than form and function. It really has to have an impact on the people and the places that you work. And that includes your clients as well as the people that use the buildings and the places that we design. And
00:04:53.098 --> 00:05:09.598
so when you and I met you knew that I was with Cooley, and you knew that Cooley, it opened up a number of new offices and You assume maybe we're opening up another one being that I was in a town where we don't have an office. But you didn't go into hard sell mode?
00:05:06.119 --> 00:05:09.598
You. You just casually told me.
00:05:09.838 --> 00:05:32.129
Yeah, we do. We do law firms, and he said a few other things about it. And, and maybe you mentioned who you might have worked with or known or something like that. But I, I, since I didn't send a hard sale, like, I'm going to close this guy right here, what is what is the approach because I like that better. I mean, if you started trying to close me, I might have ran away, I wouldn't be interviewing you on the podcast.
00:05:33.959 --> 00:06:12.810
I think that's a good point. Hard sales don't work. I mean, I'm, I'm a believer in building relationships and getting to know people. And and, and maybe we'll have a chance to work together. But it's about getting to know people first and developing that foundation of a friendship and understanding before you're really able to get into business. And and I think that's, that's really, really, really important. And I think that that leads to, you know, a much better network, especially when in a town like Austin, where we do have a new office.
00:06:07.470 --> 00:06:20.850
And it our goal is has been to just meet people and just get to know people and develop a great network and see where we can help each other out. And, and I'm a believer that business will follow them.
00:06:21.569 --> 00:06:53.490
But so when you get when you get Intel, like here's a guy from Cooley in a in a town where they don't have an office, do you go back then and make a note and follow up? Because I'm not the guy? If we if we did put an office somewhere? I'm not the person that that makes those decisions. I don't even know who does to be honest with you. But there is somebody who makes those decisions. And, and so do you take that information and then go backtrack and try to figure out who that is? and reach out? Or do you just have so much work that you don't you know, bother to do that?
00:06:53.819 --> 00:07:56.310
Oh, no, no, no, we definitely would would see where to connect the dots. And, and, and where we would work with somebody and and, and as a firm were really connected to within our, you know, amongst ourselves. So one of the kind of the unique things to think about us is internally we're we're one profit center also. So we were really able to share information and resources across the firm say, Hey, I just met, met these people in this town was this great event I went to are we working with them elsewhere, because maybe there's a small town connection, maybe there's you know, small world connection that that we can bring back and to that relationship that says, hey, we worked together before in this other city or so and so knows, knows your partner or something like that, I believe in sort of building that relationship. And it's not about about trying to sell work, it's about work and work going find other connections, maybe within the firm, where we've, we've we've worked together with, with that firm or know people and and i think that's that's, that's, that's a great way to build the network.
00:07:55.769 --> 00:08:26.189
Yeah. So if, if you were talking about something that was a good lead for, for my firm, for example, I would, I'd be asking me questions, I'd be mentally taking notes of, you know, who else involved what investment bank, what funds, you know, I'm making notes, and then I, you know, excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom. And I'm back on my, on my phone. And I'm and I'm sending emails to attorneys that know these banks and know the funds, and I'm putting a whole set of machinery in place. And you would never even know that I was doing this.
00:08:26.245 --> 00:08:29.642
And I come back and casually talk to you, like we're friends.
00:08:29.699 --> 00:08:44.129
And you don't know that I've just, you know, say, three people on this opportunity just gave me a lead on. I don't know if you do things like that or not. But but that's kind of how I operate. I hope not too many people I do this too. We are listening, right?
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We all do that.
00:08:45.210 --> 00:09:07.620
But again, it's it's more about not not creating a hard sell, but it's about I call them small world connections are the things that we can, you know, kind of learn about but somebody that we just met that that may help make a connection somewhere else our our leverage or relationship that maybe we already have, I think that's that's that's really, really important.
00:09:08.370 --> 00:09:32.190
So when I met you, you were telling me that during COVID, you you wanted to get the heck out of New York City, right? Not the best place to be during COVID. And somehow you ended up in Austin, Texas, and you bought a house here. And so, so how does one just come into town? I'm asking this. I know how I did it. But I'm curious.
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How did you just walk into town?
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You probably don't know us all?
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Well, maybe maybe you have an office here you can leverage How do you begin to make inroads?
00:09:39.090 --> 00:10:37.110
Well, I think the unique thing about Austin is that everybody, most people are from somewhere else. And so it's a little bit different than than other parts of Texas. We do have an office in Dallas, and I would go there quite frequently. I mean, I was there at least every quarter If not, not more, and so We and we have a great portfolio of clients throughout the Texas market and, and people that we know that that have have moved there and, and including working in Austin, so it wasn't completely coming in in cold. So part of what I tried to do is just one reach out to people that we've been working with already. Whether it was in Dallas, or Houston or even in Austin, people that we we know, that have relocated to Austin and that have been there and and we were able to sort of reconnect with so slowly building a network like that.
00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:39.929
And I think just kind of getting out there and meeting people.
00:10:39.929 --> 00:11:16.320
And I think the great thing about Austin, also during COVID was people were still really willing able to, you know, they were willing to meet so you could you could organize a coffee with somebody, you could go out and play golf, you can have a dinner and and you could you could network, I think more than you could in in New York, or places like New York or San Francisco where where things were much more shut down. So I think we had that, that luxury in in Austin and the Texas market where people were, we're cautiously you know, open to meeting and so that that definitely helped over the last year.
00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:26.578
So now you're back in New York, what do you what does post COVID look like for you in terms of being in person versus you know, resume and these types of things,
00:11:27.178 --> 00:12:18.389
I still believe in person is is so important. I think there's a lot more touch points now that we can have, you know, like in in zoom meetings like this, but but nothing beats getting together and meeting somebody face to face and grabbing a coffee or are having lunch or something that nothing replaces that I don't think you can create the personal connection over you know, virtually that you can in person and getting to know somebody there's sort of the whole subtleties I think of human nature when whenever people meet meet in person that you can't pick up virtually. So I I see it being you know, about the same as what it was but maybe a little bit more strategic on how in person meetings are used, I think there's probably a lot more lead up and follow up that could be done. Virtually going forward. But but the in person and getting to know people is so important.
00:12:18.750 --> 00:12:28.980
So what would be some people listening, they say I like this guy, Shawn Bosler, I want to hire his firm, what kind of what kind of companies should reach out to you?
00:12:30.059 --> 00:13:36.450
Well, we work with a lot of different people and our our practice, I always say no project is too small and no project is too large. And that's kind of the interesting thing about what we do, we we really look at add projects for one weekend have a great impact on the people in the places we work they can, they can really have a positive impact on the environment, we can, we can have fun doing it. And and our work really ranges from large new city masterplans and transit to things like we're doing in East Nashville right now, which is the whole new master plan around Nissan stadium and creating a new destination along the east bank there to smaller projects we're doing, you know, 1520 room, boutique hotels and and creating luxury destinations like that. So our work really, you know, extends from commercial and mixed use to the institutional like healthcare and, and education and things like that. And that's, that's a big market for us in taxes that we see both the private side and the public side.
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:43.769
And Shawn for the younger person who says, I'd like to do what this guy does.
00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:45.480
What advice do you have for for that person getting started out?
00:13:46.379 --> 00:14:26.609
Well, well, I mean, education is the most important and so picking a good school and and doing an insurance internships study abroad is so important. And, and, and keeping an open mind I think architecture is such a wide open field. I mean, you could really have a great career, doing small houses and you know, being a sole practitioner to being like I am running a large firm, and everything in between, I think you really have to enjoy it, I think you have to have to have a passion for for the environment and, and, and, and, and for working in, you know, in a lot of different places with a lot of different people.
00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:33.360
Great advice. Shawn Bosler, co CEO of Perkins, Eastman, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:35.340
Thanks a lot, Carl.
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:41.340
Thank you for listening today. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and please share with your friends and rate us, thank you so much.
