WEBVTT
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You're important and you're very needed.
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Um, there are many children out there that need us.
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Um, even though they may not come out and say it, they need to see that representation.
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Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be.
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I'm Brian Stanton.
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This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom.
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All right, let's do the work.
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Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education.
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I'm your host, Brian Stanton.
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My pronouns are they, them.
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Today I am joined by New Jersey educator Max Rodriguez.
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We were at the same conference together recently, but did not get to interact.
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So I'm excited that we get to spend some time together today.
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How are you doing, Max?
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I'm doing well.
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Thank you for inviting me, Brian.
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Oh, it's my pleasure.
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Can you take a moment to introduce yourself to everybody who is listening?
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Absolutely.
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I'm Max Rodriguez.
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I'm a fourth grade teacher in Montgomery uh township, and that is located between Hillsboro and Princeton.
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Um, I identify as he, him day.
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Awesome.
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And what got you into education?
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Like what why go this route?
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Oh my goodness, that's a great question.
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I really had an interest in fashion, uh, but growing up in a traditional household that was not encouraged.
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Um, so I had to decide on something different.
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Um, my father was a minister when he was alive, and I noticed that when I used to go off to church, they would ask me to do kind of a Sunday uh school type of um teachings.
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And I noticed that I had a connection to children, and so I decided to make a profession out of it, and that's how I got into teaching.
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I love that.
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Um, I love finding entry ways with that.
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I was the oldest of uh of three, as well as being one of the oldest of all of my cousins, and so I got a lot of experience when I was younger of like helping to work with kids of various ages, and that also kind of I think helped guide me into the educational field.
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And I think that we're so lucky when we have those situations to an extent because we can um really kind of hone what our interests are based off of what our experiences were.
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Absolutely.
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And I was I was an only child in this marriage, so I grew up by myself, so I think maybe it was my connection to having an extended family.
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I love that.
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So tell me a little bit about how your queer identity shows up in the work that you do in education.
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Absolutely.
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Um, with my young ones, um, they're nine and ten.
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Um, not only am I gay, but I'm also Latino, which gives me an intersectionality in the classroom.
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Um, it gives me an opportunity uh to talk about equal rights uh for all groups, whether it be me being brown um or being gay.
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Um, of course, I have to, you know, I have to be very mindful being that it is a younger grade, um, and also it's not as received uh lovingly uh by the by the family or by the extended community.
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So it's kind of walking that fine line in terms of uh in the classroom.
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So that's a very, very uh prevalent issue right now, right?
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The idea of the community not being as accepting as maybe like the immediate school and the staff and whatnot.
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How do you balance that fine line of sharing too much versus sharing too little and making sure that you keep yourself safe while also supporting your students?
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I you know what?
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It's a daily thing that I have to keep being mindful and thoughtful in the way that it instruct and also interact in school.
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We have a civics unit which opens the door about equal rights.
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So that's where an opportunity for me not only to talk about gay rights, but also other marginalized groups.
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So I always kind of fall back and say, well, it's part of the curriculum.
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And that also uh ensures that I can have those conversations, uh, still being neutral, however, um making sure that I do address the need for equal rights when it comes to LGBT community and not just save it for June.
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I love that, not just saving it for June, especially since so many schools.
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I I used to work in the South, right?
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So many schools aren't even in session in June.
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Uh it's a little different in New York City, New York, uh, New Jersey.
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But like when I was in Texas, they're out of school by Memorial Day.
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It's like the last week of school.
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So like Pride Month ain't a thing.
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Um and so can you tell me a little bit?
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I'm I'm intrigued.
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I love hearing about states that have requirements for inclusive education.
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Can you tell me a little bit of what uh what that looks like?
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Sure.
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Um, it's under the disabilities and LGBTQ curriculums.
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It is actually combined, but it's part of an inclusive curriculum.
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Um, our school has taken um the route of uh showing diverse families because there's a misconception that when we talk about LGBTQ, there's a sexual aspect to it.
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However, it's just the composition of a family.
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So if we're able to talk about a mom and a dad, a single parent, um, it should be just as normal and natural to say this family has two dads, or there's a mom and a two moms, um, and so forth.
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So that's the way that I kind of open up um just to make sure that we respect all different types of families, starting with our own um representant in the classroom.
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I have to tell you about a conversation I had with fifth graders earlier um in, I think it was in June, we had our pride flags up at school.
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Um and I at the time was teaching middle school.
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I've now transitioned back into working into higher education.
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Um but um in June, we had our pride flags up for Pride Month, and uh we're walking to the bus since I taught sixth, seventh, and eighth grade uh theater, and um the fifth graders didn't have me yet, but we're walking to the bus because that was my end-of-day task.
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And uh one of the girls pulls me aside and goes, Mr.
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Stanton, can I show you my flags?
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And I was like, sure, absolutely.
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So she showed me her flags um and and how she identifies.
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And then as we're talking, my sixth graders start asking the fifth graders question.
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And the fifth graders just had a unit during Pride Month that was about like identity.
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Um and my sixth graders were asking questions like, but what if you don't like anybody?
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And and was and one of one of the fifth graders was like, Oh, yeah, that's arrows, and and this is what that means.
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And I was like, Okay, okay, in fifth grade, like I don't even I don't even need a response to this question.
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Like, you got this.
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Um I think that's so powerful because I think that it would have been so nice for me at like 10 to understand the vast amount of identities that exist in the world.
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Um, yeah, and I think we're so often faced with racial issues, which are also a social construct.
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Um and I think that gender and sexuality are also social constructs, but they're the social constructs that we didn't start talking about until the early 2000s, like in the mainstream.
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And I just think about how these girls just like had all the answers and they knew like they took and absorbed that information because they were seen, they were seen in the lesson, and I think that's so powerful.
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Yeah, and I imagine that like any students that you have who have a family that isn't, you know, mom and dad and 2.5 children, like the quote unquote American dream.
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Like, I don't I'm still confused why 0.5 is still a thing that people like quote.
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But yeah, um I I find it fascinating, and I think that there's so many variations of family types that everybody can relate to that like throwing in queer family isn't like it's not a spotlight.
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It's right just it's just including a preth of option, exactly being in the space, and there's so many queer families out there that are also in in different circumstances.
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There might be queer families who also live with grandparents, there might be queer families who are um co-parenting uh but not in the same household, just like you would experience in other families.
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So there's so much that allows young people to relate to one another, right?
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And that's the part that frustrates me when people get in uproars because you're absolutely crazy.
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Yes.
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When anybody says anything about queer people or gay people, they automatically start thinking about sex.
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And I'm like, And grooming, yep.
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Bro, why are you thinking about sex?
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Like we're just talking about love, we're just talking about family.
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Shouldn't we talk about love?
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And shouldn't we talk about family?
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Shouldn't those be the most important things?
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Like, those aren't those values in your household like um it it's what it's wild to me, and I love that you can do things like that.
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Do you have favorite books or resources that you use for these kind of lessons?
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Absolutely.
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I I use bling blane.
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Um, it says without saying that the child is gay, um, but he loses his sparkle.
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And so but he no, yeah, sparkle.
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Yeah, he loses it, and you can see, like, you know, he starts off with the sparkles and his uh bedazzled items, and then all of a sudden it starts dimming.
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Um, but you see that also the the his allies and talks about allyship, about how they came to his rescue.
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Someone was making fun of him and how he everyone started just bedazzling themselves and bringing that sparkle back, and he was able to get his sparkle at the very end.
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Um, but I'm glad that you brought up in terms of like children coming up and saying things in private, is that they see things with without you even saying something.
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So, for example, if you have a pride flag, um I tend to have uh a rainbow lanyard.
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Um, sometimes I'll have a NJEA cling that says safe space.
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Uh, there are times when a child has come to me and said, you know, I identify as they just randomly.
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And it's just because of those things that they see.
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Um, one time I said, Oh, I have to go to a conference, and of course, at a fourth grade level, they always want to know where you're at.
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Like, where are you going?
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And I said, Oh, I'm going to a members of color conference and said, Oh, you mean the sticker that you have up there, which I totally forgot.
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And it was, and it's kind of they do see without you saying much about it, which I think is very important for us to have those visual reminders because some kids don't come out until later, maybe, because I didn't come out until I was maybe 26.
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Um, but I know that I that I was gay maybe around six.
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So seeing things, well, I think if I saw things or had uh examples when I was growing up, I think my story would have been a little bit different.
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So they always say, you know, always become the teacher that you wish you had.
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And I never imagined in the 31 years that I've been teaching that I would ever be talking about LGBTQ topics because it was a non, it was like non-negotiable.
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You never talked about it in the classroom.
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And you always hid who you were.
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So it's just it's great to see that we're in a better place.
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However, there's a lot more work to do.
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Um, but I love that I'm I'm able to be more open about things with my colleagues and my administrators.
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I love that.
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I I love talking to folks who've kind of seen the evolution of uh education because I've seen it from the student perspective, right?
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I uh know that there were probably queer educators at my high school, and I can identify them now in retrospect, like in hindsight, I can uh see them and see how they would queer code things uh without being able to say anything because at the time I didn't say anything, and I was out it like I was outed as a teenager, so um uh everybody knew, and at least at school, right?
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I was able to keep some semblance of safety in other spaces, but at school, like everybody knew.
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So even those queer educators who had heard the story about you know, an irate mom coming and saying all these things about a student, right?
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And so um I look back at like what would it have been like to be able to have a conversation with those teachers, and some of the most impactful conversations I had with really strong allies who are still strong allies.
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My my uh freshman band director, I talk about her extensively on the very first episode of this podcast because she sat me aside when I was outed and was like, Are you okay?
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Easy question, so simple, and all she did was check on me.
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She cared about how I was doing, and that kind of allyship, it's so simple, but people brush the small things off like that.
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And just like you were saying, having this the sticker, having the the lanyard, having a poster, all of those things are just entry pathways for students to be able to feel comfortable.
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One of the things I talked about on last week's episode is that when we create those safe and brave spaces for students, it really is for everybody.
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Right.
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And if you're feeling uncomfortable by inclusion, it's because you're explicitly excluding people.
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It's because of your values, it's not because of the space itself.
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Um and and I think about like instances that I've had with like very heterosexual men and women, young men and women in high school who were just like completely changed just through interaction, right?
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Right just through being able to work together on other things.
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I teach theater, we were working on other things, we were putting on plays, we were building sets, we were playing with lighting, you know, we were doing these other things that had nothing to do with queer identity, but being able to do that in a space where on the weekends when we'd have a set build, my husband would come help us.
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My children went to the school and they saw how they related to us, right?
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So it just was able to kind of break down some of those barriers that are put up in an exclusive spaces, uh trying to open the reality that like in in truth, we are all much similar than we are different.
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And if we focus on those similarities and we focus on our values and we focus on not just the word of our values, but what they truly mean, right, and where they come from, you'll find a lot of commonality.
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You know, and talking about commonality, I think we all want to be treated fairly and we all want to be treated equally, and but there's so many contradictions that occur in society.
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It's kind of like it's yeah, you can be you can be this, but you can't be too much of this.
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Like you can't be too brown, you can't be too gay, or you know, there's there's partiality to certain groups, but not others.
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And it's that fine balance and letting those kids know that in the classroom, and even my closest friends and allies is that, you know, we're all in this together.
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I see social justice is that like spirituality and uh nutrition.
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You always have to be on top of it, making sure that it's equally done because you know, you eat a couple of donuts, you know, you're gonna feel the effects later on, or your spirituality.
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That's something that's constantly being worked on.
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So it's one of those things to remember like not only not to take things so personally, but also remember my purpose.
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And that's to make sure that everyone feels like they're at home in my classroom.
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And just like a family, you know, you have your good days and your bad days, but making sure that, you know, it is a place for us to grow together for the next 10 months.
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Absolutely.
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I love that idea.
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Uh, you got me thinking about a lot of things in this conversation, but first can I can I um can I share a resource with you?
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Sure.
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A friend of mine um was a school counselor for an elementary school and ran their GSA.
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And they wrote they wrote a book about chosen family.
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It's called Chosen Family, and I think that uh it might just be something to throw into the what do families look like kind of aspect.
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Uh, it has gotten a lot of flack from conservatives because of the fact that chosen is the word of choice.
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Uh and uh uh some of those folks are like, this book is telling children that they can disown their families.
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And when reality it is caring that we can choose the people who are in our life, and we can choose to focus on the people who love us unconditionally.
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Um I think that that is something that is really powerful and something that I hope that younger people start to realize is that we do have choices in our lives, and it's hard when your kid, it's so hard because you a lot of your choice is stolen by your parents, right?
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Uh your parents make decisions for you, your parents decide on this, this, and that.
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But you have the ability, no one can take your thoughts from you.
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And you have the ability to start parsing out the people that you know make you feel safe, and those who don't, and then as you grow up, you'll be able to make more firm decisions about that.
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But it doesn't mean that you can't start figuring things out when you're young.
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Um and it also doesn't mean like you growing up can have a chosen family and your loving, you know, your uh your loving parents and your siblings who are supporting you and whatnot.
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Chosen family doesn't mean exclusion, right?
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It means inclusion, it means surrounding yourself with the people who take care of you.
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And so I just want to offer that up as an option.
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I'm not getting paid anything.
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Thank you.
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We were we were having that conversation about how you you all focus on, you know, what a different families look like.
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And I just thought I'd throw that out there for you.
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Love it.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, my pleasure.
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I want to talk a little bit about what it is like for you uh working in a community that may be less supportive.
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How do you handle when things maybe go awry or when there's a little bit more of the drama involved with being a queer educator?
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Right.
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So I do have um open line of communication with my administrator who is my principal, and she's a person of color as well.
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Um so anytime that I may be experiencing something, I do share.
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We have that open line of communication.
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Uh, she's a strong ally as long, as well as some other admin as well.
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Um, I also try to um remind myself of the importance of the job.
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So I have colleagues that I rely on, my chosen family at work, um, that I came out early on uh in my 20s.
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So it's kind of like I have that soundboard.
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Um, and also just to make sure that, you know, I read things three and four times if I receive an email to make sure that I'm, you know, level-headed when I'm responding back.
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Um, I haven't gone as much pushback face to face.
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I'm not sure what's being said behind my back, uh, which is a whole different story, um, the dynamics.
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But as of now, um like this past year, uh in New Jersey, we have the option of opting out when it comes to certain topics, whether it be during health when it comes to LBGTQ uh topics.
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And it's something could be general about family composition or whatever the case may be that or read alouds that are done in the classroom.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:17.440
But I had no one opt out this year, which is a big um, it's a huge difference of what would have seen about two or three years ago.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:24.079
So, and it's always making sure that you know, that I'm very clear with my expectations in the classroom.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.880
And also I'm not hiding anything differ from parents.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:34.640
So I'm always in constant communication with them of what's being taught in the classroom, not at the level of all the details, however, they get a gist.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.720
And you know, the kids always say something about whatever's happening in the classroom most of the time.
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.000
So there's no there's no surprises or shock value.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.039
So um there are parents that I do are I'm a little bit more open or they know about my life.
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.079
You know, it's say me and my partner, my partner and I are going off on vacation.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.519
What are you doing for the summer?
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.480
And uh, I can just kind of like slide it and normalize it that way.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:01.839
But so far with the pushback personally, um a few years ago I did get a little bit because we did have an event.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:12.000
I was a chairperson of the our union's equity committee for our local, and we did have um someone who came in, a drive queen, to do us um, to do a story hour.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.079
And we got a a little bit of we got a lot of pushback um with that one.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:23.839
However, you relied um on the administration, the district, um, and they we were able to get through that that that tough period.
00:21:54.490 --> 00:22:00.250
I'm going to echo that uh at least from my experience, I did not get a lot of face-to-face pushback.
00:22:00.330 --> 00:22:01.370
And I had no idea.
00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:05.289
Well, sometimes I had no idea what was being said about me behind my back.
00:22:05.529 --> 00:22:07.610
Sometimes I lived in the community.
00:22:07.930 --> 00:22:10.890
Sometimes I lived in the community and people told me.
00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:20.730
Um, but uh I think it is an interesting dynamic, just how free people feel on the internet to write down what they what they do.
00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:23.529
I love that you said you read things three or four times.
00:22:23.690 --> 00:22:29.370
I used to not respond to things, like I might write a draft, but then I would sleep on it.
00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:29.850
No matter.
00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:31.930
How like I would sleep on it.
00:22:32.090 --> 00:22:37.529
If it was sent to me at the end of the day, I would sleep on it and not respond until after the end of like 24 hours.
00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:51.370
Uh, if it was sent to me at the beginning of the day, I would sleep on it, I would respond the next day because I want to make sure that my response uh didn't come back with the full flush of emotions that might have been brought up immediately.
00:22:51.610 --> 00:22:55.930
I also make sure that I email other people and I'm like, can you read this for me?
00:22:56.090 --> 00:23:00.730
Uh am I coming off passive aggressive?
00:23:00.890 --> 00:23:02.490
Am I coming off aggressive aggressive?
00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:07.210
Please help.
00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:08.570
And they do.
00:23:09.050 --> 00:23:10.330
Yes, they absolutely do.
00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:13.610
And it's it was really uh hard when I was working in the South, right?
00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:17.930
Because it passive aggressive is an art in the South.
00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:19.850
Um I've been told.
00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:31.289
Yes, where you can say things um that on the surface seem incredibly nice and full of compliments, but in fact, they're like reading you to fill.
00:23:31.690 --> 00:23:39.529
So, like as I'm responding, I have to make sure not to like include that side of it.
00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:45.610
So I'm like, I have to make sure to use more not academically language, but like neutral language.
00:23:45.769 --> 00:23:46.650
Is that coded?
00:23:46.810 --> 00:23:55.210
That's like coded in uh in uh regional context and and uh vernacular.
00:23:55.370 --> 00:23:58.490
Um because you could get yourself in trouble.
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:03.690
You might say bless you, uh, and right it could mean 37 things.
00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:07.210
Um so you gotta be careful with that.
00:24:07.370 --> 00:24:16.730
Um, so I do appreciate this idea of like just don't respond immediately, read it a few times, really think about it.
00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:21.610
Um make sure that you are not reading into it or taking something personally.
00:24:22.810 --> 00:24:31.610
I know that like my experience with teaching middle school and whatnot is that oftentimes I would come home and be still feeling whatever feelings I was feeling at school.
00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:42.250
So it's like sometimes you have to separate yourself from like the day-to-day to be able to fully turn your brain back on and like function correctly.
00:24:42.570 --> 00:24:46.650
Um sometimes I have to think about okay, am I responding to this as Mr.
00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:47.690
Rodriguez or Mr.
00:24:47.850 --> 00:24:48.810
Orr or Max?
00:24:49.050 --> 00:24:51.930
It's like kind of like which side of me is coming out in this email.
00:24:52.009 --> 00:24:55.610
So it's kind of about what was keeping that line of professionalism with the with the families.
00:24:56.170 --> 00:24:56.890
I love that idea.
00:24:57.289 --> 00:25:01.130
And and I think that you know, I talk a lot about authenticity.
00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:06.009
I'm in the process actually of writing a book about um authenticity as a tool for pedagogy.
00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:14.170
And so I really, really focus a lot on authenticity and really believe that it's crucial.
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:20.490
But at the same time, I understand that our students do not get 100% of ourselves.
00:25:20.650 --> 00:25:26.250
And quite literally, I don't even think our spouses and our children get a hundred percent of ourselves.
00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:28.570
Only we get a hundred percent of ourselves.
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:38.410
But to show up authentic authentically in a space is almost like whatever space you're going into, you just have an outfit for that space.
00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:49.050
And it's it is all a part of your personality, it is all a hundred percent who you are, but it's not a hundred percent of you.
00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:55.289
Yes, and so when people are like, you know, how do you maintain authenticity?
00:25:55.370 --> 00:25:58.330
But also you have to balance this I am Max or I am Mr.
00:25:58.570 --> 00:25:58.890
R.
00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:00.570
And I think that's what Mr.
00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:04.090
R tells me what outfit I'm wearing in that moment.
00:26:04.570 --> 00:26:22.410
And it's not a shield so much as it's like my students don't get to see what I'm like when I'm crazy and drinking at the bar, you know, when I'm when I'm on the dance floor, they don't get to see, yeah, they don't get to see what I'm like when I'm uh, you know, uh kayaking or whatever.
00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:26.410
Like these parts of me that are are not for my students.
00:26:26.570 --> 00:26:31.050
Um, and then there are parts of my my life that are not for my children.
00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:38.410
Um so it's like it's just an outfit that we have to wear, and it is a part of social constructing, right?
00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:49.690
And understanding levels of professionalism, but it's never fake, it's always who you are, it's just who you are in this environment.
00:26:49.930 --> 00:26:50.250
Right.
00:26:50.410 --> 00:26:51.529
And it's an art form.
00:26:51.769 --> 00:27:00.009
It really is, it takes practice, and I think for those of you who are going into education, like maybe first year teachers or student teachers, like don't get frustrated with yourself.
00:27:00.170 --> 00:27:01.050
It's gonna take time.
00:27:01.210 --> 00:27:06.009
You're gonna you're gonna find that you share too much, uh, or you're gonna find that you share too little.
00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:09.210
My very first year, I had a wall up.
00:27:09.370 --> 00:27:20.570
Um I had a wall up, and it took me half the year to get my students to uh connect with me, and it was because of my own wall, right?
00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:27.450
But I was like, I need to have boundaries, uh, I need to have really strict boundaries, and you make mistakes and you learn from them.
00:27:27.610 --> 00:27:40.810
Yeah, and then there's nothing wrong to fill out the situation because depending on the district or the group that you're working with, in terms of your colleagues, it's good to kind of get to know the group first, and that's in any social setting.
00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:42.650
No, absolutely setting.
00:27:42.890 --> 00:27:44.650
I I like to think about it this way.
00:27:44.810 --> 00:27:54.490
It's like um I have this stone wall in my backyard, it's made of stone and mortar, like it's over a hundred years old, it's crazy.
00:27:54.650 --> 00:27:59.529
Um, but there's a stone wall in my backyard, and some of the stones have fallen out.
00:28:00.330 --> 00:28:04.650
And so I have this barrier, but they're entry points.
00:28:05.210 --> 00:28:05.529
Right.
00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:11.529
And I think about that when I'm when I'm in a new space.
00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:14.250
I've got my barrier, but I still have entry points.
00:28:14.810 --> 00:28:27.130
And then as I feel more comfortable in the space, the barrier becomes uh a wood fence that has like, you know, slits at every panel and you can see through them, right?
00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:34.970
And then it becomes a chain link, chain link fix with a cover on it, and then becomes a chain link link fence without a cover on it.
00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:41.450
And so it's like my barrier, my boundary will adapt to the environment that I'm in.
00:28:41.769 --> 00:28:45.930
Um I did a lot of visualization when I used to be an opera singer.
00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:48.650
Um opera is a weird space.
00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:58.650
Um, but you know, when we're working with coaches and whatnot, sometimes we do visualizations and we would have like this like shield and energy that we would visualize pushing out.
00:28:58.730 --> 00:29:02.490
And mine was always like this purple net that was inside of a bubble.
00:29:02.650 --> 00:29:09.769
Um, but the net like filtered filtered out negativity and let me like flourish in that moment.
00:29:09.850 --> 00:29:11.930
It was like my my confidence net.
00:29:12.090 --> 00:29:19.130
When I put it on, comp confidence would be exuded and all the negativity would bounce off of me.
00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:28.250
And I kind of think about that in in space in spaces that I entered that like uh Brene Brown would call it like our armor.
00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:31.529
Um, but I don't I think armor is too harsh of a word.
00:29:31.610 --> 00:29:36.650
We do have boundaries for each location, and we have to have boundaries for each location we go into.
00:29:36.810 --> 00:29:39.529
Um but I call it like more of my force field.
00:29:39.610 --> 00:29:44.009
Um, and my force field is permeable, it is not a hard like armor.
00:29:44.090 --> 00:29:45.610
I think of like metal, right?
00:29:45.769 --> 00:29:47.370
It's hard to get through.
00:29:47.610 --> 00:29:53.289
My my force field is permeable, but it has different levels of opacity.
00:29:54.810 --> 00:30:03.690
And I think as we learn as as we grow as teachers, that's gonna change every time we move environments, it's gonna change at the beginning of every school year.
00:30:04.090 --> 00:30:16.009
Um, and you just have you have to be comfortable with the fact that your boundaries are gonna adjust, um, but also knowing like at some point there's a start and stop, and you need to know what that boundary is.
00:30:16.090 --> 00:30:18.090
There's a hard boundary for yourself.
00:30:18.330 --> 00:30:19.850
What am I not sharing?
00:30:20.090 --> 00:30:21.130
And it's okay.
00:30:21.370 --> 00:30:23.050
That is not a Mr.
00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:24.330
R thing, right?
00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:25.930
That is a max thing, and it's okay.
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:26.810
That's right.
00:30:26.970 --> 00:30:27.930
That's right.
00:30:28.170 --> 00:30:35.210
And it's funny, like uh the other day, um, one of the secretaries called me by my first name and I didn't turn around because no one usually calls me by my first name.
00:30:35.370 --> 00:30:45.529
And it's funny how I kind of like separate the two personas and being a Gemini too, like, you know, I have two different like the teacher aspect and also the the max aspect, my personal aspect.
00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:46.490
Yeah.
00:30:46.650 --> 00:31:02.330
And I think that's one of the hard things is uh as a teacher and for young teachers, I think that going into this industry, especially right now, it could be hard dealing with this idea that uh in some spaces you're a teacher, not a person.
00:31:02.890 --> 00:31:03.529
Right.
00:31:04.090 --> 00:31:14.810
And so you really have to feel out your administration, you have to feel out the culture of your school and kind of understand the expectation there.
00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:28.490
And if you're if your administration is like, oh no, full stop, you're a person, and your community is like you're a teacher, then you have to go back to your administration and be like, my personhood is being in violation right here.
00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:36.730
I uh and and I think that's where you lean on your support systems and you you find your people, always find your people.
00:31:37.450 --> 00:31:38.890
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:39.050 --> 00:31:44.490
You know, there was a quote the other day that I um I like to share like when you share your vibe, you find your tribe.
00:31:45.050 --> 00:31:53.050
And once you do it authentically, you can feel that those folks coming back or coming into your life that you didn't expect to have those connections with.
00:31:53.289 --> 00:32:00.490
And uh, we do have new uh every year, we usually have someone who's brand new to the district or in the building, and you know, usually gravitate to each other.
00:32:00.570 --> 00:32:06.410
Um, and it's just nice to have, especially for those friends who are new, that they have someone that they can rely on and trust.
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:17.850
And you know, I've been there forever, so I'm always have open doors for uh for the newcomers, uh, just to make sure that they're comfortable in the environment and ask any questions that they wish, whether they're part of the community or they're allies.
00:32:18.170 --> 00:32:18.890
I love that.
00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:24.810
I think that it's super important to find your people in your first year teaching because it can get very lonely if you don't.
00:32:25.050 --> 00:32:25.289
Yes.
00:32:25.610 --> 00:32:27.529
Uh, I will speak from my own experience.
00:32:27.610 --> 00:32:30.330
It took me because I had those boundaries up, it took me a while.
00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:37.769
And now one of those teachers, I mean, sh I've lived in New York City for three years, and she's come to visit me every year with her husband and her family.
00:32:37.930 --> 00:32:45.289
Like we are we are close because uh she finally helped me chisel away those boundaries that I was holding so far.
00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:48.410
Uh and it's okay, you learn from it, right?
00:32:48.570 --> 00:32:52.090
And then things are so better once they they started crumbling.
00:32:52.330 --> 00:32:54.890
Uh, I want to talk a little bit about joy.
00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:57.850
I like to to spread queer joy.
00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:04.250
I think it is a revolutionary thing in a time when people want us to feel isolated and miserable.
00:33:04.490 --> 00:33:09.210
Um so tell me about what's bringing you joy right now.
00:33:10.490 --> 00:33:18.330
My queer joy, I always make time for my family and reminding me of the important things in my life.
00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:22.970
If you're not very, if you're not careful with teaching, it can consume you.
00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:27.130
Um and you can do, it's like the post office, it never stops coming.
00:33:27.289 --> 00:33:38.730
Um, so it's always making sure that I dedicate time to my partner, to my friends who have supported me uh through this journey, my family members that have been there through thick and thin.
00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:41.050
Um and that really brings me a lot of joy.
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:51.210
Um, also just making time for myself and really appreciating all the things that I've gone through and also some of the things that I'm you know open to learning.
00:33:51.370 --> 00:33:54.090
Um so that can constantly brings me joy.
00:33:54.410 --> 00:33:57.289
Also helping out, um, I do committee work.
00:33:57.529 --> 00:34:02.570
I I'm the committee chair for the Somerset County Education Rainbow Connection Committee.
00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:04.410
I also do equity work.
00:34:04.570 --> 00:34:10.250
I also do NJAA, uh SOGI committee, which represents for sexual orientation, gender identity.
00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:24.009
So always helping out the next generation or people who are, you know, interested in moving this work forward, especially during these dark times, you need to find those happy moments, those happy people just to keep smiling and keep the love going.
00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:26.329
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:26.570 --> 00:34:41.210
Um, I think that helping the future folks is uh so important, um, especially in education, because everything is a little bit uh unstable right now.
00:34:41.369 --> 00:34:43.690
There's a lot of things that are up in the air.
00:34:43.930 --> 00:34:53.050
And speaking of that, I want to wrap up our time together, asking you like, what do you what do you want to say to queer educators right now?
00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:55.210
What do you think they need to hear in this moment?
00:34:57.369 --> 00:35:00.090
You're important and you're very needed.
00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:08.250
Um, there are many children out there that need us, um, even though they may not come out and say it, they need to see that representation.
00:35:08.570 --> 00:35:10.889
Um, and just to keep the fight going.
00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:19.610
Um, and I know that fight sounds so harsh, and that's just showing up and being open and working in social justice as much as you can.
00:35:19.849 --> 00:35:26.970
Um, and that's the the one tidbit that I would like to give uh future educators or upcoming uh educators.
00:35:30.570 --> 00:35:33.450
Thank you for being a part of Queering Education.
00:35:33.530 --> 00:35:36.010
This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast.
00:35:36.170 --> 00:35:41.210
Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students.
00:35:41.369 --> 00:35:42.809
I'm Brian Stanton.
00:35:42.970 --> 00:35:45.849
Until next time, keep showing up.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.560
You're important and you're very needed.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.519
Um, there are many children out there that need us.
00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:10.720
Um, even though they may not come out and say it, they need to see that representation.
00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:19.440
Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:20.960
I'm Brian Stanton.
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:29.120
This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:31.519
All right, let's do the work.
00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:40.000
Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:42.079
I'm your host, Brian Stanton.
00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:43.600
My pronouns are they, them.
00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:48.000
Today I am joined by New Jersey educator Max Rodriguez.
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:52.719
We were at the same conference together recently, but did not get to interact.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.439
So I'm excited that we get to spend some time together today.
00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:56.719
How are you doing, Max?
00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:57.679
I'm doing well.
00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.039
Thank you for inviting me, Brian.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:00.320
Oh, it's my pleasure.
00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:04.000
Can you take a moment to introduce yourself to everybody who is listening?
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:04.959
Absolutely.
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:06.560
I'm Max Rodriguez.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:12.799
I'm a fourth grade teacher in Montgomery uh township, and that is located between Hillsboro and Princeton.
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.000
Um, I identify as he, him day.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:17.359
Awesome.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.959
And what got you into education?
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:24.000
Like what why go this route?
00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:26.640
Oh my goodness, that's a great question.
00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:34.799
I really had an interest in fashion, uh, but growing up in a traditional household that was not encouraged.
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:37.760
Um, so I had to decide on something different.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:48.319
Um, my father was a minister when he was alive, and I noticed that when I used to go off to church, they would ask me to do kind of a Sunday uh school type of um teachings.
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:55.920
And I noticed that I had a connection to children, and so I decided to make a profession out of it, and that's how I got into teaching.
00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:57.200
I love that.
00:01:57.519 --> 00:01:59.840
Um, I love finding entry ways with that.
00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:16.080
I was the oldest of uh of three, as well as being one of the oldest of all of my cousins, and so I got a lot of experience when I was younger of like helping to work with kids of various ages, and that also kind of I think helped guide me into the educational field.
00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:28.479
And I think that we're so lucky when we have those situations to an extent because we can um really kind of hone what our interests are based off of what our experiences were.
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:29.280
Absolutely.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:36.879
And I was I was an only child in this marriage, so I grew up by myself, so I think maybe it was my connection to having an extended family.
00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:38.000
I love that.
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:42.719
So tell me a little bit about how your queer identity shows up in the work that you do in education.
00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:43.919
Absolutely.
00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.280
Um, with my young ones, um, they're nine and ten.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:53.599
Um, not only am I gay, but I'm also Latino, which gives me an intersectionality in the classroom.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:03:03.520
Um, it gives me an opportunity uh to talk about equal rights uh for all groups, whether it be me being brown um or being gay.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:17.599
Um, of course, I have to, you know, I have to be very mindful being that it is a younger grade, um, and also it's not as received uh lovingly uh by the by the family or by the extended community.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:22.639
So it's kind of walking that fine line in terms of uh in the classroom.
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:27.520
So that's a very, very uh prevalent issue right now, right?
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:35.360
The idea of the community not being as accepting as maybe like the immediate school and the staff and whatnot.
00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:45.599
How do you balance that fine line of sharing too much versus sharing too little and making sure that you keep yourself safe while also supporting your students?
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:47.039
I you know what?
00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:54.639
It's a daily thing that I have to keep being mindful and thoughtful in the way that it instruct and also interact in school.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:58.800
We have a civics unit which opens the door about equal rights.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:04.639
So that's where an opportunity for me not only to talk about gay rights, but also other marginalized groups.
00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.159
So I always kind of fall back and say, well, it's part of the curriculum.
00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:21.839
And that also uh ensures that I can have those conversations, uh, still being neutral, however, um making sure that I do address the need for equal rights when it comes to LGBT community and not just save it for June.
00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:25.279
I love that, not just saving it for June, especially since so many schools.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:26.959
I I used to work in the South, right?
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.120
So many schools aren't even in session in June.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:34.160
Uh it's a little different in New York City, New York, uh, New Jersey.
00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.000
But like when I was in Texas, they're out of school by Memorial Day.
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:39.519
It's like the last week of school.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.240
So like Pride Month ain't a thing.
00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.040
Um and so can you tell me a little bit?
00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:46.319
I'm I'm intrigued.
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:51.279
I love hearing about states that have requirements for inclusive education.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.240
Can you tell me a little bit of what uh what that looks like?
00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:55.120
Sure.
00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:59.360
Um, it's under the disabilities and LGBTQ curriculums.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.800
It is actually combined, but it's part of an inclusive curriculum.
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:16.160
Um, our school has taken um the route of uh showing diverse families because there's a misconception that when we talk about LGBTQ, there's a sexual aspect to it.
00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.040
However, it's just the composition of a family.
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:31.199
So if we're able to talk about a mom and a dad, a single parent, um, it should be just as normal and natural to say this family has two dads, or there's a mom and a two moms, um, and so forth.
00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:39.279
So that's the way that I kind of open up um just to make sure that we respect all different types of families, starting with our own um representant in the classroom.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:48.240
I have to tell you about a conversation I had with fifth graders earlier um in, I think it was in June, we had our pride flags up at school.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.199
Um and I at the time was teaching middle school.
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:54.079
I've now transitioned back into working into higher education.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:06:10.560
Um but um in June, we had our pride flags up for Pride Month, and uh we're walking to the bus since I taught sixth, seventh, and eighth grade uh theater, and um the fifth graders didn't have me yet, but we're walking to the bus because that was my end-of-day task.
00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:16.959
And uh one of the girls pulls me aside and goes, Mr.
00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.600
Stanton, can I show you my flags?
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:21.839
And I was like, sure, absolutely.
00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.240
So she showed me her flags um and and how she identifies.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.399
And then as we're talking, my sixth graders start asking the fifth graders question.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:35.680
And the fifth graders just had a unit during Pride Month that was about like identity.
00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:42.000
Um and my sixth graders were asking questions like, but what if you don't like anybody?
00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:48.959
And and was and one of one of the fifth graders was like, Oh, yeah, that's arrows, and and this is what that means.
00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.839
And I was like, Okay, okay, in fifth grade, like I don't even I don't even need a response to this question.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.040
Like, you got this.
00:06:55.199 --> 00:07:08.639
Um I think that's so powerful because I think that it would have been so nice for me at like 10 to understand the vast amount of identities that exist in the world.
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:15.360
Um, yeah, and I think we're so often faced with racial issues, which are also a social construct.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:27.600
Um and I think that gender and sexuality are also social constructs, but they're the social constructs that we didn't start talking about until the early 2000s, like in the mainstream.
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:40.079
And I just think about how these girls just like had all the answers and they knew like they took and absorbed that information because they were seen, they were seen in the lesson, and I think that's so powerful.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:51.279
Yeah, and I imagine that like any students that you have who have a family that isn't, you know, mom and dad and 2.5 children, like the quote unquote American dream.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.319
Like, I don't I'm still confused why 0.5 is still a thing that people like quote.
00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:13.360
But yeah, um I I find it fascinating, and I think that there's so many variations of family types that everybody can relate to that like throwing in queer family isn't like it's not a spotlight.
00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:26.399
It's right just it's just including a preth of option, exactly being in the space, and there's so many queer families out there that are also in in different circumstances.
00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:36.080
There might be queer families who also live with grandparents, there might be queer families who are um co-parenting uh but not in the same household, just like you would experience in other families.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:42.559
So there's so much that allows young people to relate to one another, right?
00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:47.200
And that's the part that frustrates me when people get in uproars because you're absolutely crazy.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:47.519
Yes.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:52.240
When anybody says anything about queer people or gay people, they automatically start thinking about sex.
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.320
And I'm like, And grooming, yep.
00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.159
Bro, why are you thinking about sex?
00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:00.639
Like we're just talking about love, we're just talking about family.
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:01.919
Shouldn't we talk about love?
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:03.120
And shouldn't we talk about family?
00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:05.039
Shouldn't those be the most important things?
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:13.679
Like, those aren't those values in your household like um it it's what it's wild to me, and I love that you can do things like that.
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.080
Do you have favorite books or resources that you use for these kind of lessons?
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:18.960
Absolutely.
00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:20.960
I I use bling blane.
00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:26.159
Um, it says without saying that the child is gay, um, but he loses his sparkle.
00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.519
And so but he no, yeah, sparkle.
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:37.200
Yeah, he loses it, and you can see, like, you know, he starts off with the sparkles and his uh bedazzled items, and then all of a sudden it starts dimming.
00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:43.039
Um, but you see that also the the his allies and talks about allyship, about how they came to his rescue.
00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:51.360
Someone was making fun of him and how he everyone started just bedazzling themselves and bringing that sparkle back, and he was able to get his sparkle at the very end.
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:59.919
Um, but I'm glad that you brought up in terms of like children coming up and saying things in private, is that they see things with without you even saying something.
00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:05.039
So, for example, if you have a pride flag, um I tend to have uh a rainbow lanyard.
00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.279
Um, sometimes I'll have a NJEA cling that says safe space.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:14.879
Uh, there are times when a child has come to me and said, you know, I identify as they just randomly.
00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.519
And it's just because of those things that they see.
00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:23.759
Um, one time I said, Oh, I have to go to a conference, and of course, at a fourth grade level, they always want to know where you're at.
00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:24.799
Like, where are you going?
00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:31.039
And I said, Oh, I'm going to a members of color conference and said, Oh, you mean the sticker that you have up there, which I totally forgot.
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:44.960
And it was, and it's kind of they do see without you saying much about it, which I think is very important for us to have those visual reminders because some kids don't come out until later, maybe, because I didn't come out until I was maybe 26.
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.120
Um, but I know that I that I was gay maybe around six.
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:58.879
So seeing things, well, I think if I saw things or had uh examples when I was growing up, I think my story would have been a little bit different.
00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:02.639
So they always say, you know, always become the teacher that you wish you had.
00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:12.240
And I never imagined in the 31 years that I've been teaching that I would ever be talking about LGBTQ topics because it was a non, it was like non-negotiable.
00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:13.919
You never talked about it in the classroom.
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.159
And you always hid who you were.
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.080
So it's just it's great to see that we're in a better place.
00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:21.919
However, there's a lot more work to do.
00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:29.200
Um, but I love that I'm I'm able to be more open about things with my colleagues and my administrators.
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:30.559
I love that.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:41.200
I I love talking to folks who've kind of seen the evolution of uh education because I've seen it from the student perspective, right?
00:11:41.440 --> 00:12:12.799
I uh know that there were probably queer educators at my high school, and I can identify them now in retrospect, like in hindsight, I can uh see them and see how they would queer code things uh without being able to say anything because at the time I didn't say anything, and I was out it like I was outed as a teenager, so um uh everybody knew, and at least at school, right?
00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:17.360
I was able to keep some semblance of safety in other spaces, but at school, like everybody knew.
00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:25.279
So even those queer educators who had heard the story about you know, an irate mom coming and saying all these things about a student, right?
00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:41.360
And so um I look back at like what would it have been like to be able to have a conversation with those teachers, and some of the most impactful conversations I had with really strong allies who are still strong allies.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:53.120
My my uh freshman band director, I talk about her extensively on the very first episode of this podcast because she sat me aside when I was outed and was like, Are you okay?
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:58.240
Easy question, so simple, and all she did was check on me.
00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:07.919
She cared about how I was doing, and that kind of allyship, it's so simple, but people brush the small things off like that.
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:21.200
And just like you were saying, having this the sticker, having the the lanyard, having a poster, all of those things are just entry pathways for students to be able to feel comfortable.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:28.799
One of the things I talked about on last week's episode is that when we create those safe and brave spaces for students, it really is for everybody.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:29.679
Right.
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:36.559
And if you're feeling uncomfortable by inclusion, it's because you're explicitly excluding people.
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:40.240
It's because of your values, it's not because of the space itself.
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:57.039
Um and and I think about like instances that I've had with like very heterosexual men and women, young men and women in high school who were just like completely changed just through interaction, right?
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:00.960
Right just through being able to work together on other things.
00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:18.000
I teach theater, we were working on other things, we were putting on plays, we were building sets, we were playing with lighting, you know, we were doing these other things that had nothing to do with queer identity, but being able to do that in a space where on the weekends when we'd have a set build, my husband would come help us.
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.720
My children went to the school and they saw how they related to us, right?
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:45.679
So it just was able to kind of break down some of those barriers that are put up in an exclusive spaces, uh trying to open the reality that like in in truth, we are all much similar than we are different.
00:14:46.399 --> 00:15:01.679
And if we focus on those similarities and we focus on our values and we focus on not just the word of our values, but what they truly mean, right, and where they come from, you'll find a lot of commonality.
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:12.320
You know, and talking about commonality, I think we all want to be treated fairly and we all want to be treated equally, and but there's so many contradictions that occur in society.
00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:17.519
It's kind of like it's yeah, you can be you can be this, but you can't be too much of this.
00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:24.879
Like you can't be too brown, you can't be too gay, or you know, there's there's partiality to certain groups, but not others.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:33.200
And it's that fine balance and letting those kids know that in the classroom, and even my closest friends and allies is that, you know, we're all in this together.
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:38.000
I see social justice is that like spirituality and uh nutrition.
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:46.799
You always have to be on top of it, making sure that it's equally done because you know, you eat a couple of donuts, you know, you're gonna feel the effects later on, or your spirituality.
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.200
That's something that's constantly being worked on.
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:56.320
So it's one of those things to remember like not only not to take things so personally, but also remember my purpose.
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.320
And that's to make sure that everyone feels like they're at home in my classroom.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:08.080
And just like a family, you know, you have your good days and your bad days, but making sure that, you know, it is a place for us to grow together for the next 10 months.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.519
Absolutely.
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.440
I love that idea.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:19.440
Uh, you got me thinking about a lot of things in this conversation, but first can I can I um can I share a resource with you?
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:20.240
Sure.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:27.519
A friend of mine um was a school counselor for an elementary school and ran their GSA.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.440
And they wrote they wrote a book about chosen family.
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:41.120
It's called Chosen Family, and I think that uh it might just be something to throw into the what do families look like kind of aspect.
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:48.320
Uh, it has gotten a lot of flack from conservatives because of the fact that chosen is the word of choice.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:56.559
Uh and uh uh some of those folks are like, this book is telling children that they can disown their families.
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:07.519
And when reality it is caring that we can choose the people who are in our life, and we can choose to focus on the people who love us unconditionally.
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:24.960
Um I think that that is something that is really powerful and something that I hope that younger people start to realize is that we do have choices in our lives, and it's hard when your kid, it's so hard because you a lot of your choice is stolen by your parents, right?
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:29.599
Uh your parents make decisions for you, your parents decide on this, this, and that.
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.920
But you have the ability, no one can take your thoughts from you.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:48.559
And you have the ability to start parsing out the people that you know make you feel safe, and those who don't, and then as you grow up, you'll be able to make more firm decisions about that.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:55.359
But it doesn't mean that you can't start figuring things out when you're young.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:08.079
Um and it also doesn't mean like you growing up can have a chosen family and your loving, you know, your uh your loving parents and your siblings who are supporting you and whatnot.
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.920
Chosen family doesn't mean exclusion, right?
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.039
It means inclusion, it means surrounding yourself with the people who take care of you.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.079
And so I just want to offer that up as an option.
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.559
I'm not getting paid anything.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:24.079
Thank you.
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:30.559
We were we were having that conversation about how you you all focus on, you know, what a different families look like.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.319
And I just thought I'd throw that out there for you.
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:32.880
Love it.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:33.279
Thank you.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:34.559
Yeah, my pleasure.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:40.880
I want to talk a little bit about what it is like for you uh working in a community that may be less supportive.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:50.400
How do you handle when things maybe go awry or when there's a little bit more of the drama involved with being a queer educator?
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:51.519
Right.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:00.640
So I do have um open line of communication with my administrator who is my principal, and she's a person of color as well.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:06.079
Um so anytime that I may be experiencing something, I do share.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.079
We have that open line of communication.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:12.960
Uh, she's a strong ally as long, as well as some other admin as well.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.440
Um, I also try to um remind myself of the importance of the job.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:24.000
So I have colleagues that I rely on, my chosen family at work, um, that I came out early on uh in my 20s.
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.400
So it's kind of like I have that soundboard.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:35.359
Um, and also just to make sure that, you know, I read things three and four times if I receive an email to make sure that I'm, you know, level-headed when I'm responding back.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:40.559
Um, I haven't gone as much pushback face to face.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:46.640
I'm not sure what's being said behind my back, uh, which is a whole different story, um, the dynamics.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:59.200
But as of now, um like this past year, uh in New Jersey, we have the option of opting out when it comes to certain topics, whether it be during health when it comes to LBGTQ uh topics.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:06.880
And it's something could be general about family composition or whatever the case may be that or read alouds that are done in the classroom.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:17.440
But I had no one opt out this year, which is a big um, it's a huge difference of what would have seen about two or three years ago.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:24.079
So, and it's always making sure that you know, that I'm very clear with my expectations in the classroom.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.880
And also I'm not hiding anything differ from parents.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:34.640
So I'm always in constant communication with them of what's being taught in the classroom, not at the level of all the details, however, they get a gist.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.720
And you know, the kids always say something about whatever's happening in the classroom most of the time.
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.000
So there's no there's no surprises or shock value.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.039
So um there are parents that I do are I'm a little bit more open or they know about my life.
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.079
You know, it's say me and my partner, my partner and I are going off on vacation.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.519
What are you doing for the summer?
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.480
And uh, I can just kind of like slide it and normalize it that way.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:01.839
But so far with the pushback personally, um a few years ago I did get a little bit because we did have an event.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:12.000
I was a chairperson of the our union's equity committee for our local, and we did have um someone who came in, a drive queen, to do us um, to do a story hour.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.079
And we got a a little bit of we got a lot of pushback um with that one.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:23.839
However, you relied um on the administration, the district, um, and they we were able to get through that that that tough period.
00:21:54.490 --> 00:22:00.250
I'm going to echo that uh at least from my experience, I did not get a lot of face-to-face pushback.
00:22:00.330 --> 00:22:01.370
And I had no idea.
00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:05.289
Well, sometimes I had no idea what was being said about me behind my back.
00:22:05.529 --> 00:22:07.610
Sometimes I lived in the community.
00:22:07.930 --> 00:22:10.890
Sometimes I lived in the community and people told me.
00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:20.730
Um, but uh I think it is an interesting dynamic, just how free people feel on the internet to write down what they what they do.
00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:23.529
I love that you said you read things three or four times.
00:22:23.690 --> 00:22:29.370
I used to not respond to things, like I might write a draft, but then I would sleep on it.
00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:29.850
No matter.
00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:31.930
How like I would sleep on it.
00:22:32.090 --> 00:22:37.529
If it was sent to me at the end of the day, I would sleep on it and not respond until after the end of like 24 hours.
00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:51.370
Uh, if it was sent to me at the beginning of the day, I would sleep on it, I would respond the next day because I want to make sure that my response uh didn't come back with the full flush of emotions that might have been brought up immediately.
00:22:51.610 --> 00:22:55.930
I also make sure that I email other people and I'm like, can you read this for me?
00:22:56.090 --> 00:23:00.730
Uh am I coming off passive aggressive?
00:23:00.890 --> 00:23:02.490
Am I coming off aggressive aggressive?
00:23:05.930 --> 00:23:07.210
Please help.
00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:08.570
And they do.
00:23:09.050 --> 00:23:10.330
Yes, they absolutely do.
00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:13.610
And it's it was really uh hard when I was working in the South, right?
00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:17.930
Because it passive aggressive is an art in the South.
00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:19.850
Um I've been told.
00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:31.289
Yes, where you can say things um that on the surface seem incredibly nice and full of compliments, but in fact, they're like reading you to fill.
00:23:31.690 --> 00:23:39.529
So, like as I'm responding, I have to make sure not to like include that side of it.
00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:45.610
So I'm like, I have to make sure to use more not academically language, but like neutral language.
00:23:45.769 --> 00:23:46.650
Is that coded?
00:23:46.810 --> 00:23:55.210
That's like coded in uh in uh regional context and and uh vernacular.
00:23:55.370 --> 00:23:58.490
Um because you could get yourself in trouble.
00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:03.690
You might say bless you, uh, and right it could mean 37 things.
00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:07.210
Um so you gotta be careful with that.
00:24:07.370 --> 00:24:16.730
Um, so I do appreciate this idea of like just don't respond immediately, read it a few times, really think about it.
00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:21.610
Um make sure that you are not reading into it or taking something personally.
00:24:22.810 --> 00:24:31.610
I know that like my experience with teaching middle school and whatnot is that oftentimes I would come home and be still feeling whatever feelings I was feeling at school.
00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:42.250
So it's like sometimes you have to separate yourself from like the day-to-day to be able to fully turn your brain back on and like function correctly.
00:24:42.570 --> 00:24:46.650
Um sometimes I have to think about okay, am I responding to this as Mr.
00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:47.690
Rodriguez or Mr.
00:24:47.850 --> 00:24:48.810
Orr or Max?
00:24:49.050 --> 00:24:51.930
It's like kind of like which side of me is coming out in this email.
00:24:52.009 --> 00:24:55.610
So it's kind of about what was keeping that line of professionalism with the with the families.
00:24:56.170 --> 00:24:56.890
I love that idea.
00:24:57.289 --> 00:25:01.130
And and I think that you know, I talk a lot about authenticity.
00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:06.009
I'm in the process actually of writing a book about um authenticity as a tool for pedagogy.
00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:14.170
And so I really, really focus a lot on authenticity and really believe that it's crucial.
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:20.490
But at the same time, I understand that our students do not get 100% of ourselves.
00:25:20.650 --> 00:25:26.250
And quite literally, I don't even think our spouses and our children get a hundred percent of ourselves.
00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:28.570
Only we get a hundred percent of ourselves.
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:38.410
But to show up authentic authentically in a space is almost like whatever space you're going into, you just have an outfit for that space.
00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:49.050
And it's it is all a part of your personality, it is all a hundred percent who you are, but it's not a hundred percent of you.
00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:55.289
Yes, and so when people are like, you know, how do you maintain authenticity?
00:25:55.370 --> 00:25:58.330
But also you have to balance this I am Max or I am Mr.
00:25:58.570 --> 00:25:58.890
R.
00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:00.570
And I think that's what Mr.
00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:04.090
R tells me what outfit I'm wearing in that moment.
00:26:04.570 --> 00:26:22.410
And it's not a shield so much as it's like my students don't get to see what I'm like when I'm crazy and drinking at the bar, you know, when I'm when I'm on the dance floor, they don't get to see, yeah, they don't get to see what I'm like when I'm uh, you know, uh kayaking or whatever.
00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:26.410
Like these parts of me that are are not for my students.
00:26:26.570 --> 00:26:31.050
Um, and then there are parts of my my life that are not for my children.
00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:38.410
Um so it's like it's just an outfit that we have to wear, and it is a part of social constructing, right?
00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:49.690
And understanding levels of professionalism, but it's never fake, it's always who you are, it's just who you are in this environment.
00:26:49.930 --> 00:26:50.250
Right.
00:26:50.410 --> 00:26:51.529
And it's an art form.
00:26:51.769 --> 00:27:00.009
It really is, it takes practice, and I think for those of you who are going into education, like maybe first year teachers or student teachers, like don't get frustrated with yourself.
00:27:00.170 --> 00:27:01.050
It's gonna take time.
00:27:01.210 --> 00:27:06.009
You're gonna you're gonna find that you share too much, uh, or you're gonna find that you share too little.
00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:09.210
My very first year, I had a wall up.
00:27:09.370 --> 00:27:20.570
Um I had a wall up, and it took me half the year to get my students to uh connect with me, and it was because of my own wall, right?
00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:27.450
But I was like, I need to have boundaries, uh, I need to have really strict boundaries, and you make mistakes and you learn from them.
00:27:27.610 --> 00:27:40.810
Yeah, and then there's nothing wrong to fill out the situation because depending on the district or the group that you're working with, in terms of your colleagues, it's good to kind of get to know the group first, and that's in any social setting.
00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:42.650
No, absolutely setting.
00:27:42.890 --> 00:27:44.650
I I like to think about it this way.
00:27:44.810 --> 00:27:54.490
It's like um I have this stone wall in my backyard, it's made of stone and mortar, like it's over a hundred years old, it's crazy.
00:27:54.650 --> 00:27:59.529
Um, but there's a stone wall in my backyard, and some of the stones have fallen out.
00:28:00.330 --> 00:28:04.650
And so I have this barrier, but they're entry points.
00:28:05.210 --> 00:28:05.529
Right.
00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:11.529
And I think about that when I'm when I'm in a new space.
00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:14.250
I've got my barrier, but I still have entry points.
00:28:14.810 --> 00:28:27.130
And then as I feel more comfortable in the space, the barrier becomes uh a wood fence that has like, you know, slits at every panel and you can see through them, right?
00:28:27.289 --> 00:28:34.970
And then it becomes a chain link, chain link fix with a cover on it, and then becomes a chain link link fence without a cover on it.
00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:41.450
And so it's like my barrier, my boundary will adapt to the environment that I'm in.
00:28:41.769 --> 00:28:45.930
Um I did a lot of visualization when I used to be an opera singer.
00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:48.650
Um opera is a weird space.
00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:58.650
Um, but you know, when we're working with coaches and whatnot, sometimes we do visualizations and we would have like this like shield and energy that we would visualize pushing out.
00:28:58.730 --> 00:29:02.490
And mine was always like this purple net that was inside of a bubble.
00:29:02.650 --> 00:29:09.769
Um, but the net like filtered filtered out negativity and let me like flourish in that moment.
00:29:09.850 --> 00:29:11.930
It was like my my confidence net.
00:29:12.090 --> 00:29:19.130
When I put it on, comp confidence would be exuded and all the negativity would bounce off of me.
00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:28.250
And I kind of think about that in in space in spaces that I entered that like uh Brene Brown would call it like our armor.
00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:31.529
Um, but I don't I think armor is too harsh of a word.
00:29:31.610 --> 00:29:36.650
We do have boundaries for each location, and we have to have boundaries for each location we go into.
00:29:36.810 --> 00:29:39.529
Um but I call it like more of my force field.
00:29:39.610 --> 00:29:44.009
Um, and my force field is permeable, it is not a hard like armor.
00:29:44.090 --> 00:29:45.610
I think of like metal, right?
00:29:45.769 --> 00:29:47.370
It's hard to get through.
00:29:47.610 --> 00:29:53.289
My my force field is permeable, but it has different levels of opacity.
00:29:54.810 --> 00:30:03.690
And I think as we learn as as we grow as teachers, that's gonna change every time we move environments, it's gonna change at the beginning of every school year.
00:30:04.090 --> 00:30:16.009
Um, and you just have you have to be comfortable with the fact that your boundaries are gonna adjust, um, but also knowing like at some point there's a start and stop, and you need to know what that boundary is.
00:30:16.090 --> 00:30:18.090
There's a hard boundary for yourself.
00:30:18.330 --> 00:30:19.850
What am I not sharing?
00:30:20.090 --> 00:30:21.130
And it's okay.
00:30:21.370 --> 00:30:23.050
That is not a Mr.
00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:24.330
R thing, right?
00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:25.930
That is a max thing, and it's okay.
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:26.810
That's right.
00:30:26.970 --> 00:30:27.930
That's right.
00:30:28.170 --> 00:30:35.210
And it's funny, like uh the other day, um, one of the secretaries called me by my first name and I didn't turn around because no one usually calls me by my first name.
00:30:35.370 --> 00:30:45.529
And it's funny how I kind of like separate the two personas and being a Gemini too, like, you know, I have two different like the teacher aspect and also the the max aspect, my personal aspect.
00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:46.490
Yeah.
00:30:46.650 --> 00:31:02.330
And I think that's one of the hard things is uh as a teacher and for young teachers, I think that going into this industry, especially right now, it could be hard dealing with this idea that uh in some spaces you're a teacher, not a person.
00:31:02.890 --> 00:31:03.529
Right.
00:31:04.090 --> 00:31:14.810
And so you really have to feel out your administration, you have to feel out the culture of your school and kind of understand the expectation there.
00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:28.490
And if you're if your administration is like, oh no, full stop, you're a person, and your community is like you're a teacher, then you have to go back to your administration and be like, my personhood is being in violation right here.
00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:36.730
I uh and and I think that's where you lean on your support systems and you you find your people, always find your people.
00:31:37.450 --> 00:31:38.890
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:39.050 --> 00:31:44.490
You know, there was a quote the other day that I um I like to share like when you share your vibe, you find your tribe.
00:31:45.050 --> 00:31:53.050
And once you do it authentically, you can feel that those folks coming back or coming into your life that you didn't expect to have those connections with.
00:31:53.289 --> 00:32:00.490
And uh, we do have new uh every year, we usually have someone who's brand new to the district or in the building, and you know, usually gravitate to each other.
00:32:00.570 --> 00:32:06.410
Um, and it's just nice to have, especially for those friends who are new, that they have someone that they can rely on and trust.
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:17.850
And you know, I've been there forever, so I'm always have open doors for uh for the newcomers, uh, just to make sure that they're comfortable in the environment and ask any questions that they wish, whether they're part of the community or they're allies.
00:32:18.170 --> 00:32:18.890
I love that.
00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:24.810
I think that it's super important to find your people in your first year teaching because it can get very lonely if you don't.
00:32:25.050 --> 00:32:25.289
Yes.
00:32:25.610 --> 00:32:27.529
Uh, I will speak from my own experience.
00:32:27.610 --> 00:32:30.330
It took me because I had those boundaries up, it took me a while.
00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:37.769
And now one of those teachers, I mean, sh I've lived in New York City for three years, and she's come to visit me every year with her husband and her family.
00:32:37.930 --> 00:32:45.289
Like we are we are close because uh she finally helped me chisel away those boundaries that I was holding so far.
00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:48.410
Uh and it's okay, you learn from it, right?
00:32:48.570 --> 00:32:52.090
And then things are so better once they they started crumbling.
00:32:52.330 --> 00:32:54.890
Uh, I want to talk a little bit about joy.
00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:57.850
I like to to spread queer joy.
00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:04.250
I think it is a revolutionary thing in a time when people want us to feel isolated and miserable.
00:33:04.490 --> 00:33:09.210
Um so tell me about what's bringing you joy right now.
00:33:10.490 --> 00:33:18.330
My queer joy, I always make time for my family and reminding me of the important things in my life.
00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:22.970
If you're not very, if you're not careful with teaching, it can consume you.
00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:27.130
Um and you can do, it's like the post office, it never stops coming.
00:33:27.289 --> 00:33:38.730
Um, so it's always making sure that I dedicate time to my partner, to my friends who have supported me uh through this journey, my family members that have been there through thick and thin.
00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:41.050
Um and that really brings me a lot of joy.
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:51.210
Um, also just making time for myself and really appreciating all the things that I've gone through and also some of the things that I'm you know open to learning.
00:33:51.370 --> 00:33:54.090
Um so that can constantly brings me joy.
00:33:54.410 --> 00:33:57.289
Also helping out, um, I do committee work.
00:33:57.529 --> 00:34:02.570
I I'm the committee chair for the Somerset County Education Rainbow Connection Committee.
00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:04.410
I also do equity work.
00:34:04.570 --> 00:34:10.250
I also do NJAA, uh SOGI committee, which represents for sexual orientation, gender identity.
00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:24.009
So always helping out the next generation or people who are, you know, interested in moving this work forward, especially during these dark times, you need to find those happy moments, those happy people just to keep smiling and keep the love going.
00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:26.329
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:26.570 --> 00:34:41.210
Um, I think that helping the future folks is uh so important, um, especially in education, because everything is a little bit uh unstable right now.
00:34:41.369 --> 00:34:43.690
There's a lot of things that are up in the air.
00:34:43.930 --> 00:34:53.050
And speaking of that, I want to wrap up our time together, asking you like, what do you what do you want to say to queer educators right now?
00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:55.210
What do you think they need to hear in this moment?
00:34:57.369 --> 00:35:00.090
You're important and you're very needed.
00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:08.250
Um, there are many children out there that need us, um, even though they may not come out and say it, they need to see that representation.
00:35:08.570 --> 00:35:10.889
Um, and just to keep the fight going.
00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:19.610
Um, and I know that fight sounds so harsh, and that's just showing up and being open and working in social justice as much as you can.
00:35:19.849 --> 00:35:26.970
Um, and that's the the one tidbit that I would like to give uh future educators or upcoming uh educators.
00:35:30.570 --> 00:35:33.450
Thank you for being a part of Queering Education.
00:35:33.530 --> 00:35:36.010
This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast.
00:35:36.170 --> 00:35:41.210
Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students.
00:35:41.369 --> 00:35:42.809
I'm Brian Stanton.
00:35:42.970 --> 00:35:45.849
Until next time, keep showing up.
