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In this special from the archives
edition of Problem Solved, we're
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revisiting one of Keith Albertson's
most memorable conversations.
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But first, I asked Keith why out of so
many episodes over the years, this was
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one he wanted listeners to hear again.
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His conversation with
Professor Shaul Ladany
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Well, he had quite an amazing story.
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we first learned about him from
one of our longtime members who
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sent us a link to a news article.
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we reached out.
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We were able to contact him.
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He was interested in, in talking to us.
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We had a bit of a challenge.
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we had some technical issues, so we
wound up doing it over the phone and,
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had a seven-hour time difference.
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But it was an amazing story, and he
has a story that, you, you, you can't
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believe it until you hear him tell it.
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He grew up in Yugoslavia
during World War II.
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His family escaped to Hungary and
ended up in a concentration camp.
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they got out alive at the end of the
war, so he survived the Holocaust.
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Later got his education.
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His family settled in Israel.
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he became a teacher, then
a competitive race walker.
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Ended up being selected to the
Israeli Olympic team twice, 1968 and
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1972, and of course, those are the
Olympics held in Munich, Germany,
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when a militant group overran the
Israeli team compound, took hostages.
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11 of the members were killed,
but he escaped that as well.
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He and many, of his team members
were able to escape that building.
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So it's just an incredible tale
of survival and a lifetime of
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problem-solving, and we thought
it was a very inspirational story.
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And when you listen to the episode now,
what stands out to you most, and what do
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you hope listeners will take away from it?
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Well, part of it is his resolve.
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I mean, he went through these amazing
experiences, and yet at, at the end, he
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mentions he has no bitterness, in general.
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he learned from the experience.
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I, I, I think, you know, he doesn't talk
in detail, but he was able to apply his,
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education and experience to being able to
survive these, various challenges in life.
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Went on to a successful teaching
career and led many students
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to, their successful careers.
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in that way, he's quite an inspiration.
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In fact, at the time we spoke to him a few
years ago, he was well into his, late 80s.
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He was still involved at his university
and still race walking, at, at that age.
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So, anyone with that kind of
inspirational story can certainly,
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set an example for us all on how to
conduct ourselves through a life.
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Here's the original episode and Keith's
conversation with Professor Ladany.
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Keith Albertson, managing
editor of ISE Magazine.
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Today's guest is Shaul Ladany.
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He's a professor emeritus of industrial
engineering at Ben-Gurion University
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of the Negev in Beersheba, Israel.
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In addition to his noted academic
career as an instructor, researcher,
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and author, he also excelled as a
world-class athlete and as a Holocaust
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survivor who as a child spent six months
in a concentration camp in Germany.
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As a competitive race walker, Professor
Ladany set records that still stand, and
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he competed in the 1968 and 1972 Olympics.
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In his second trip to the games
in Munich, Germany, he was one of
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the Israeli athletes who escaped
a terrorist attack that claimed
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the lives of 11 of his teammates.
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In a recent phone interview from
his home in Israel, he discussed
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his background, his athletic
career, and his academic efforts.
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Professor Ladany begins by discussing
his childhood background and how
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his family provided the first
introduction to science and engineering.
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I was born in a middle-class family.
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My father was a chemical
engineer and a patent attorney.
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E- even his, uncle that was almost his
brother, he became a doctor of chemistry.
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And so whatever I remember f- from my
childhood and later on, the discussions
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at home were usually on science and
engineering And nobody told me that
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I should study engineering and so on.
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whatever I heard at home,
that influenced my interest.
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And my… By the way, my father, one of
his teache- teachers, was Fritz Haber.
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Fritz Haber got the Nobel Prize for trying
to get the, the nitrogen out of air.
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Oh.
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And, for some period of time,
my father worked with, Theodor,
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Reichstein, who got the Nobel Prize,
not in chemistry, but in, medicine.
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but he was a, a chemist.
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among ma- many things, the, he was
the first to synthesize vitamin C.
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So you see, my father
was also an able person.
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Professor Ladany talks about his
family's struggles during the war
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and the challenges they faced in
an effort to escape the Nazis.
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I was born in Belgrade, and at age
five, I was already bombed by the
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Germans when they attacked in a
surprise attack, Yugoslavia in '41.
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Mm-hmm.
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So I evidenced that awful
thing of being bombed.
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I evidenced, escaping, then, trying to
escape out of Yugoslavia, taking the
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risk, the risk of if we are caught on the
other side, on the Hungarian side, then we
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will be… And they will discover that we
are Jews, we will be killed on the spot.
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And if we remain in Serbia,
they might, kill us there.
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And indeed, many of, of those that
remained there, most of them were
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gassed, gas in trucks for the, with
the exhaust fumes of, of the engines.
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That was the first attempt that the Nazis
killed Jews by g- by g- gassing them.
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And then we, we have
been, refugees in Hungary.
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I have been for, for a
time also in a monastery.
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Awful times, and not because they did
something wrong to me, because I was
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afraid that it will be discovered, that
I'm a Jew, and then I will be killed.
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And then I, I was in ghetto, and
then later on, half a year in the
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Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.
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So I had some, some experience
what it meant, Holocaust.
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Mm-hmm.
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And how were you able to,
how were you able to escape?
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You were helped by a
group in America, correct?
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It's a long story written,
both in my autobiography.
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Toward the end of the war, in, in a
exchange, exchange of, close to 2,000
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Jews, we were transferred to Switzerland.
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After they lost everything during
the war, Ladany's family looked to
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rebuild their lives and eventually
settled in the new nation of Israel
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After the war, we returned to Yugoslavia
and, because there were no alternatives.
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So the, you probably know, United
States did not, allow Jewish
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immigrants in masses to come in.
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There were very small quotas
and neither to Palestine.
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Most of the Jews, surviving Jews
wanted to get to Palestine, but the
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British authorities that had the
mandate to Palestine closed the door.
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They had a quota of 2,000 people per year.
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That's nothing.
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So we returned to Yugoslavia, rebuilt or
repaired the bombed villa of my parents.
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They started the factory that my father
had and so on, until the state of
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Israel was established, and then as
a condition for leaving Yugoslavia to
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Israel, we had to give up everything.
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Have you seen people that are willing
to give up all their property just for
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the right to leave the, country and
to get to the country of their wish?
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Ladany's family faced many hardships
in their early years in Israel, but
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they were able to finally create
a home as he began his academic
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studies and his athletic career.
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What was it like in Israel those
early days as a young nation?
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How
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did- I, I, I can tell you after two
weeks, we got some old house without
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electricity, without running water, in
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the garden, a primi- primitive
Turkish closet, no kitchen.
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I, as a not yet 13 year old, w-
walked with two buckets to the
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only place about a mile away to
get water And bring water to us
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But you were free, so it
was worth it at the time
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after
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all- But we were, we were free.
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Yes.
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It's very difficult, really to imagine
such, such conditions, of life.
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And I was able then to participate
in the first Israeli marathon
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competition, the first in '56, and
in the competition there were only 10
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competitors without proper training.
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Lidani's career as a race walker
began in Israel at a long-distance
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walking event and later led him
to more competitive efforts.
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I found out that I have
excellent walking abilities.
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One or two years later on, I entered
the first time the Israeli National
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Championship in race walking, and, have
beaten the Israeli champion of that time,
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for, at the distance of 3,000 meters,
l- a little less than 22 miles, by, by,
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which is, seven and a half laps in a
stadium, and, I have beaten him by almost
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a full lap And from that, that time
on, I became a full-time race walker.
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After he served in the Israeli
military, ladany began pursuing academic
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degrees in mechanical engineering.
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He sought his PhD in business
administration and later
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studied industrial engineering.
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Immediately after the military service,
I started mechanical engineering.
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Industrial engineering studies did
not exist at that time in Israel.
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Only one year l- after, the start of, of
my studies, they started such a program.
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I got a degree in mechanical engineering
and then a master's degree in mechanical
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engineering, and later on I got married
after, getting my first degree and moved
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to Jerusalem where my wife, worked for
PhD in, biochemistry, endocrinology.
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And, the … My first job
was manager of the mechanical
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workshop of the Hebrew University.
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So after a year, I, I, I wanted to,
to stay to continue my study there in
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Jerusalem, and I found out that since
in, at the Hebrew University there
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was never any program in, technical
studies, that, the option to do a PhD
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in physics is closed because the, they
saw that my engineering background
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provides very little, what they needed
for their physic- physics program.
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And I found out that they started, some
new field Never heard about it before.
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And, I'm speaking about, year of '62.
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what was that new field?
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Business administration.
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Mm-hmm.
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And, there I studied and got an
additional second degree in business
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ad- administration, but specializing
in the quantitative, field.
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I was sent by the university
for my doctoral studies.
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They thought that, I'm suitable to
teach in a business administration
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program, production management.
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I was, sent and, was accepted by
Columbia University, and there I was
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accepted by the is- School of Business
Administration, but I took courses
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in the School of, Engineering in the
Department of, Industrial Engineering.
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So one of my loved teachers,
Sebastian Littauer.
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Sebastian Littauer
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got the Sch- Schubert, Award.
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When I finished my master's degree
at, at Technion in Israel, in Israel
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there was no computer yet of any kind.
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Only later on, around '61, '62, they
started to construct a hu- at the
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Weizmann Institute of, Institute of
Science, a huge computer in a hall at
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the length of maybe 25 yards and so on.
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A computer made of, ten thousands
of diodes with a computing power
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less than, the computing power of
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a common calculator,
electronic calculator today.
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When I got to Columbia University for
my PhD program, for my thesis, Columbia
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University did not have yet any computer.
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And remember that the business
school was named after Watson.
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Watson was the president of, IBM.
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Mm-hmm.
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Nevertheless, they did
not have yet any computer.
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While seeking his doctoral degree
at Columbia University in New York,
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Ladany began training more seriously
as a long-distance race walker with
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former U.S. Olympians, and he soon
began breaking long-standing records
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while aiming for the Olympic Games.
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During my, time at Columbia University,
obviously when I arrived, I was
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already Israeli ch- champion, race
walking champion, but, not at the
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results that were, of high level.
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Before I left for the United
States, in Israel I participated
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in the Maccabiah Games.
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Maccabiah in, in Israel.
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Maccabiah Games are a k- kind of
classy Olympic Games for Jews.
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Right.
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And, there I met somebody from United
States, and he told me when I arrive
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for doctoral studies, he will introduce
me to the US, walkers, in New York, and
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I could train with them on weekends.
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And indeed, I started to train on many
of the weekends together with them and,
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learn on common, problems that we had.
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And, I, I discovered that I
have exceptional abilities
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in the long distances.
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obviously I had to train for
it, and I trained, very hard.
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In '66, I have participated in
the Eastern Regional 50 Mile Ch-
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Race Walking Championship in New
Jersey Won it and broke the oldest
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United States record of any kind.
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It was an 80-year-old record.
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I set for the 50 mile,
eight hours 35 minutes.
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My wife told me, this is probably
the best, best or the largest
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success that I will ever have in
my life, and, I agreed with her.
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Hmm.
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But next year, I,
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in '67, I, improved my own US record and
lowered the, the record to eight, 11.
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In '68, I improved my own
record, US record to 8:05.
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And, obviously I was,
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with training with the US walkers
that many of them were ex-Olympians
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and, or had Olympics aspirations.
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I got that, also the same aspiration.
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00:18:36,588 --> 00:18:44,547
And I have broken the Israeli
standard for the Mexico Olympic Games.
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00:18:45,307 --> 00:18:53,247
And immediately as I got my PhD, 1st of
February '68, and the Olympic Games were,
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late October, instead of ta-taking on
any job, teaching job, I did nothing else
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but just trained, for the Olympic Games.
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And, I, I really became quite successful,
participated in the, in the Mexico in the
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00:19:13,294 --> 00:19:21,734
Olympic Games, returned to Israel, started
my academic career at Tel Aviv University.
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But, in, in 1970, I returned to
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00:19:26,433 --> 00:19:32,844
U- to United States for that 50-mile
championship, reduced my own 50-mile
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00:19:33,114 --> 00:19:41,523
record to seven hours and I believe
57 minutes or something like this.
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That was in 1970.
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And, obviously I, in '69, I, in Israel,
I, wanted to try to repeat Olympic
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00:19:54,894 --> 00:20:01,063
fever to get for the second time to
the Olympic Games, for the '72 games.
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And, in
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'70, '71, I had started
seriously to train.
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00:20:08,794 --> 00:20:12,934
In '72, I flew again to the United States
to proceed- participate in the same
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50-mile championship.
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00:20:18,224 --> 00:20:24,563
And not only that I have broke, improved
my own US record, but set a world record
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00:20:24,843 --> 00:20:28,983
of seven hours, 23 minutes and 50 seconds.
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00:20:29,444 --> 00:20:33,133
Remember, I started with
5:30, 8:35, eight hours 35.
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00:20:35,623 --> 00:20:41,623
Now I reduced it to 7:23, and until
today, it's still world record.
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00:20:42,283 --> 00:20:42,723
Wow.
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00:20:42,784 --> 00:20:47,373
Ladany describes his early teaching
career in Israel and how he emphasized
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00:20:47,593 --> 00:20:50,424
to his students the need to think
through problems on their own
250
00:20:50,424 --> 00:20:52,223
rather than memorize various methods
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00:20:55,139 --> 00:21:00,439
In, '75, I joined the Bangalore
University in the Department of Industrial
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00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:07,159
Engineering, but really I did not change
my field, only the department that
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00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:14,580
employed me changed because in all my
academic career, I dealt with quantitative
254
00:21:14,779 --> 00:21:21,169
subjects, quality control, production
management, and operations research.
255
00:21:21,679 --> 00:21:23,350
Mm-hmm.
256
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:26,499
That was my field, and, I stayed with it.
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00:21:27,149 --> 00:21:35,730
I don't know what brought me to understand
the field of, how to try to educate
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00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:40,549
pe- people in industrial engineering,
but not only in industrial engineering,
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00:21:40,930 --> 00:21:43,199
at least in quantitative fields.
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00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:49,714
And when I'm saying, operations
research, I… That's a part
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00:21:49,714 --> 00:21:51,370
of industrial engineering.
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00:21:51,579 --> 00:21:57,759
Initially, you have to provide always
the basics, the tools, but then you
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00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:07,029
have to teach people how to try, how to
think, how, how to try to solve problems,
264
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:10,009
problems that they have never seen before.
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00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:18,509
Such approach can be done only after, you
have provided them with some basic tools.
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00:22:19,489 --> 00:22:19,759
Right.
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00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:29,259
And, even in, various, examinations, I
never asked, and I told my students in
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00:22:29,259 --> 00:22:32,269
advance, never to memorize anything.
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00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:40,929
I let them to have an open book at
examination, whatever book they decided
270
00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:46,369
to have with them, and let them to
write in the book whatever they wanted.
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00:22:47,059 --> 00:22:54,284
But in the, in the examination, I provided
them with a problem With the problem.
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00:22:54,594 --> 00:23:00,844
So, problem where they, they had
to, to find out really what the real
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00:23:00,914 --> 00:23:07,114
problem is, and then how to approach
it, h- and how to try to solve it.
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00:23:07,413 --> 00:23:07,834
Mm-hmm.
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00:23:07,954 --> 00:23:15,074
The moment that you know how to try to
solve it, then, then they, there are
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00:23:15,074 --> 00:23:18,764
many possibilities, for the solutions.
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00:23:19,294 --> 00:23:25,293
If you teach them just, with, with
various methods and so on, they
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00:23:25,293 --> 00:23:32,334
don't get that habit of thinking
how to try to cope with problems.
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00:23:33,434 --> 00:23:35,043
The education has changed.
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00:23:35,323 --> 00:23:38,573
As always, the, changes appear.
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00:23:38,983 --> 00:23:44,523
I heard that in 1910s, there was
electrical engineering and mechanical
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00:23:44,663 --> 00:23:51,164
engineering in one department, one, one
subject, and they got separated later on.
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00:23:51,393 --> 00:23:57,053
So separations, divisions, that's
the rule of, of the changes.
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00:23:57,134 --> 00:24:03,394
Out of, our department or inside the
department, we have also robotics and
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00:24:03,404 --> 00:24:08,764
all the different fields that deal
with data management, information
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00:24:08,764 --> 00:24:11,703
systems, and so on, more and more.
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00:24:12,548 --> 00:24:17,088
It's all in the same scope,
but, we had, we have also ge-
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00:24:17,378 --> 00:24:20,228
generated additional departments.
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00:24:21,208 --> 00:24:25,415
You might also group them together under
the umbrella of industrial engineering.
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00:24:25,415 --> 00:24:26,658
I would say that the, students at,
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00:24:34,767 --> 00:24:41,668
colleges in industrial engineering are
qualified technicians, most of them.
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00:24:41,847 --> 00:24:43,467
There are exceptions, obviously.
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00:24:43,547 --> 00:24:51,148
On the other hand, at the universities,
the students have much higher intellectual
294
00:24:51,517 --> 00:24:59,077
abilities, and, they get a much
better, preparation, and they are able
295
00:24:59,148 --> 00:25:01,568
to cope much better with problems.
296
00:25:02,468 --> 00:25:06,837
Obviously, there are exceptions,
but, this is the situation.
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00:25:07,087 --> 00:25:12,038
Now, in Uni- United States, I know
you have so many universities and
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00:25:12,038 --> 00:25:19,908
so many colleges, a- and you, you
don't expect that a small state
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00:25:19,937 --> 00:25:25,727
college would have the same ability
as a graduate of Stanford or MIT.
300
00:25:25,727 --> 00:25:25,957
Ladani
301
00:25:26,857 --> 00:25:31,097
discusses the growth of industrial and
systems engineering in Israel and the
302
00:25:31,098 --> 00:25:33,277
different fields in which it is applied.
303
00:25:33,977 --> 00:25:41,178
Yes, it is growing, and they
are working in various fields,
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00:25:41,257 --> 00:25:45,027
not necessarily in, production.
305
00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:47,487
Well, most of them are not in production.
306
00:25:48,028 --> 00:25:54,417
Many of them in various services,
transportation, banking, and in the
307
00:25:54,418 --> 00:26:01,768
recent years, in various, startups
which they are become programmers.
308
00:26:03,657 --> 00:26:09,538
this is in, in my, my view, not what
we would ever like them to, to do.
309
00:26:09,697 --> 00:26:16,977
But, since in Israel there are so
many new startups and mainly, dealing
310
00:26:16,988 --> 00:26:21,146
with various, information systems.
311
00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:24,586
Ladany discusses his teaching
and research efforts and the
312
00:26:24,586 --> 00:26:26,546
publications he's been part of.
313
00:26:26,886 --> 00:26:30,886
Now, I can tell a few
things about my, myself.
314
00:26:30,886 --> 00:26:41,956
I was one of the first that, started,
started the integration of production,
315
00:26:42,006 --> 00:26:45,816
marketing, pricing, and inventory.
316
00:26:46,185 --> 00:26:49,605
I published, something in around,
317
00:26:51,966 --> 00:26:52,136
1970.
318
00:26:52,136 --> 00:26:58,805
This was-- it, it started in many, many
other publications where the problem of
319
00:26:58,845 --> 00:27:06,065
integrating simultaneously or, problems
from all those fields were there.
320
00:27:07,965 --> 00:27:11,405
like, likewise, I followed,
don't know whether you heard the
321
00:27:11,406 --> 00:27:17,985
names Dodge and Romig in quality
control, in, in sampling and so on.
322
00:27:18,345 --> 00:27:24,526
But, I studied those things, but I was
one of the first, if not the first,
323
00:27:24,855 --> 00:27:30,635
that started economic optimization
in quality control, taking into
324
00:27:30,635 --> 00:27:33,795
cons-consideration the various costs.
325
00:27:34,376 --> 00:27:34,785
Mm-hmm.
326
00:27:35,126 --> 00:27:43,586
Likewise, I was the first that, started
to take into consideration in, economic
327
00:27:43,615 --> 00:27:47,856
consideration in setting warranty periods.
328
00:27:48,376 --> 00:27:56,745
And, I was, one of the first that started
to apply operations research, really
329
00:27:56,946 --> 00:28:01,585
optimization in, sports decisions.
330
00:28:02,095 --> 00:28:07,965
Was the editor of a special
issue of management science, of
331
00:28:07,965 --> 00:28:11,005
another issue, and, of, two books.
332
00:28:11,376 --> 00:28:18,546
Plus, I wrote the, the entry on that
subject on three editions of, of the
333
00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:25,115
Encyclopedia of Management Science and
Operations Research, and published,
334
00:28:26,336 --> 00:28:33,376
Maybe 15 papers or more, more on
that sub-- more on that subject.
335
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:41,126
So optimization, what, supports many of
the decisions were usually intuitive.
336
00:28:41,845 --> 00:28:45,905
Professor Emeritus since 2006.
337
00:28:46,255 --> 00:28:52,315
I'm still, engaged in research,
dealing with, trying to find
338
00:28:52,526 --> 00:28:53,955
the coordinates of targets.
339
00:28:54,555 --> 00:29:00,706
Published, several papers on that,
and especially presently, trying
340
00:29:00,725 --> 00:29:02,966
to f- to find the best method.
341
00:29:02,966 --> 00:29:10,775
There are several method, methods to find,
to estimate the point of intersection
342
00:29:11,185 --> 00:29:20,156
of, rotated ellipses in the space when
they should have had a common point
343
00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:22,306
of intersection, but they do not have.
344
00:29:23,056 --> 00:29:25,265
And there are several me-methods.
345
00:29:25,606 --> 00:29:30,535
All of them take a different time,
and all of them provide different
346
00:29:30,546 --> 00:29:37,455
accuracies, and, to, to try to
evaluate, those different methods.
347
00:29:41,606 --> 00:29:45,316
Ladany discusses how he's staying
active as a race walker, including
348
00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:47,245
a longtime birthday tradition
349
00:29:51,207 --> 00:29:53,288
I'm still race walking.
350
00:29:54,248 --> 00:30:00,147
up to, simply I would say,
since my 50th birthday, at that
351
00:30:00,148 --> 00:30:02,197
time I was at Georgia Tech.
352
00:30:03,148 --> 00:30:09,858
I started to celebrate my birthday,
birth- birthdays by walking o- one
353
00:30:09,888 --> 00:30:14,528
kilometer for each year of my age.
354
00:30:14,528 --> 00:30:18,197
My 83rd birthday, I walked 83 kilometers.
355
00:30:18,518 --> 00:30:24,728
Planned in, in, April 84,
this year, to do 80…
356
00:30:25,638 --> 00:30:29,878
a walk of 84 kilometers,
but then, came the corona.
357
00:30:30,197 --> 00:30:39,097
And, but, on 28th of Apr… of, February,
I still walked the Tel Aviv Marathon,
358
00:30:39,827 --> 00:30:47,247
a full ma- distance of marathon,
which is, 42 kilometers, 26 miles.
359
00:30:48,007 --> 00:30:54,442
I still walked it, being the oldest
participant in the marathon Whether I will
360
00:30:54,442 --> 00:31:01,842
be able to do next year, which is in seven
months now, 85 kilometers, I don't know.
361
00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:08,902
What I can say that since we are not
getting younger, neither myself, I feel
362
00:31:08,962 --> 00:31:17,581
from year to year how every mile gets
longer and how every slope gets steeper.
363
00:31:19,221 --> 00:31:22,281
Here, Ladany discusses how he
might be remembered for his
364
00:31:22,281 --> 00:31:24,442
athletic and academic careers.
365
00:31:24,592 --> 00:31:27,131
I don't know how I will be remembered.
366
00:31:27,131 --> 00:31:35,672
I know that I from-- I got awards,
unusual awards from two directions,
367
00:31:35,892 --> 00:31:37,661
which I know that is unusual.
368
00:31:38,341 --> 00:31:44,351
By the way, I, I won also the
100-kilometer world championship after
369
00:31:44,352 --> 00:31:54,001
Munich, a month after it, and I won master
championships and set a world record in
370
00:31:54,281 --> 00:31:58,571
the 100 mile for the 70-plus age group.
371
00:31:59,521 --> 00:32:06,901
From the port side, the International
Olympic Committee awarded me the
372
00:32:06,901 --> 00:32:07,661
Baron Pierre de Coubertin medal.
373
00:32:07,681 --> 00:32:09,562
Baron Pierre de Coubertin
374
00:32:12,872 --> 00:32:19,322
was the one that resumed the
Olympic Games- Right … or
375
00:32:19,322 --> 00:32:25,611
restarted Olympic Games, modern
Olympic Games in 1896, I believe.
376
00:32:26,461 --> 00:32:26,981
'
96, yes.
377
00:32:27,291 --> 00:32:27,452
Mm-hmm.
378
00:32:27,671 --> 00:32:32,192
And he directed several of
the first Olympic Games.
379
00:32:32,711 --> 00:32:36,322
So he-- And that award is a very rare one.
380
00:32:36,571 --> 00:32:39,811
I got it for my achieve-
unusual achievements.
381
00:32:40,281 --> 00:32:46,991
On the other side, in Israel, I got
several lifetime achievement awards in
382
00:32:49,521 --> 00:32:49,901
industrial engineering.
383
00:32:50,241 --> 00:32:58,241
So I am very proud that I was awarded
both for my sports achievements as
384
00:32:58,281 --> 00:33:01,221
well as for my academic achievements.
385
00:33:01,731 --> 00:33:04,761
How long I will be
remembered, I don't know.
386
00:33:05,061 --> 00:33:09,571
In closing, Ladany discusses the lessons
learned from his long and adventurous
387
00:33:09,571 --> 00:33:11,881
life that he can pass along to others.
388
00:33:13,204 --> 00:33:16,604
Yeah, I don't hate people, but I remember.
389
00:33:16,724 --> 00:33:23,074
I, I, I, I, I have a good memory still,
although it is fading, fading for names,
390
00:33:23,254 --> 00:33:25,744
but still I have a good, good memory.
391
00:33:26,103 --> 00:33:32,893
What I can tell you what is important,
for persons, first, that I learned
392
00:33:32,913 --> 00:33:37,653
from, from the Holocaust, you should,
y- you should take care of yourself.
393
00:33:38,804 --> 00:33:42,014
Very few others, will try to help you.
394
00:33:42,624 --> 00:33:48,314
That's true as an individual,
and it's true also as a country.
395
00:33:48,503 --> 00:33:48,814
Mm-hmm.
396
00:33:48,904 --> 00:33:50,214
Only if it's in their interest.
397
00:33:50,233 --> 00:33:55,143
I don't know how much you are
aware of, history of Czechoslovakia
398
00:33:55,704 --> 00:34:01,483
when, Nazi Germany, took part
of them first, the, the Sudetes.
399
00:34:01,943 --> 00:34:04,164
Nobody intervened and so on.
400
00:34:04,523 --> 00:34:08,803
If you are not strong enough, if
you, you cannot defend yourself,
401
00:34:09,463 --> 00:34:16,423
you might lose a lot, including your
own life, your own independence.
402
00:34:16,493 --> 00:34:17,543
You should be strong.
403
00:34:18,144 --> 00:34:22,534
Second, you always might
lose all your assets.
404
00:34:23,113 --> 00:34:30,753
My father lost, look, we left, in
Yugoslavia everything that we had.
405
00:34:31,313 --> 00:34:33,183
Never got any compensation.
406
00:34:33,523 --> 00:34:41,323
His, young uncle that I mentioned, he,
he has started from scratch, and he
407
00:34:41,473 --> 00:34:51,109
has, built the largest pharmaceutical
concern of Yugoslavia It was taken
408
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:58,819
away as a Jewish property in '41
by the Nazi regime of Croatia,
409
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,160
then in the-- became independent.
410
00:35:01,549 --> 00:35:05,529
Then it wa-- it, it
was nationalized by the
411
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,259
communists, and no penny
was ever restituted.
412
00:35:11,749 --> 00:35:17,859
It was sold, by the way, just, yeah,
I, I want to point out wh-uh, what
413
00:35:18,270 --> 00:35:20,699
type of property we are speaking.
414
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:24,811
It was sold, only, only the
con-- the pharmaceutical concern.
415
00:35:24,811 --> 00:35:25,100
Not houses, not,
416
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:29,499
yachts and, and so on.
417
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:37,029
It was sold, sold for two and a half
billion dollars about 10 or 15 years ago
418
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,450
to an Israeli pharmaceutical concern.
419
00:35:39,469 --> 00:35:39,569
Hmm.
420
00:35:39,919 --> 00:35:40,149
Two
421
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,910
and a half billion dollars.
422
00:35:42,219 --> 00:35:45,679
The family did not receive
a penny restitution.
423
00:35:45,899 --> 00:35:46,980
What remains?
424
00:35:47,429 --> 00:35:53,489
What remains when you lose your
knowledge and your ability to earn.
425
00:35:53,839 --> 00:36:03,309
You have to educate people so that
such causes that, caused in the 1930s
426
00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:11,600
in Germany the lack of democracy and
then the rise of the Nazi Party, you
427
00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:18,610
have to teach, teach, teach children
and people h-how to keep democracy
428
00:36:30,158 --> 00:36:35,078
Professor Shaul Ladany's story is one
of extraordinary resilience, but also
429
00:36:35,078 --> 00:36:39,657
of perseverance, curiosity, and a
lifelong drive to keep moving forward.
430
00:36:40,368 --> 00:36:44,328
Our thanks to Professor Ladany for
sharing his remarkable life and career,
431
00:36:44,698 --> 00:36:48,888
and to Keith Albertson for choosing this
conversation as one worth revisiting.
432
00:36:49,388 --> 00:36:52,307
And if you haven't already, make
sure you follow Problem Solved
433
00:36:52,317 --> 00:36:55,468
wherever you listen to podcasts so
you don't miss what's coming next.
434
00:36:56,107 --> 00:36:58,757
Thank you for listening to
this special from the archives
435
00:36:58,787 --> 00:37:00,407
edition of Problem Solved.
436
00:37:00,897 --> 00:37:03,458
Every great solution is
a story worth telling
00:00:09,358 --> 00:00:13,128
In this special from the archives
edition of Problem Solved, we're
2
00:00:13,128 --> 00:00:17,028
revisiting one of Keith Albertson's
most memorable conversations.
3
00:00:17,678 --> 00:00:21,968
But first, I asked Keith why out of so
many episodes over the years, this was
4
00:00:21,968 --> 00:00:23,938
one he wanted listeners to hear again.
5
00:00:24,318 --> 00:00:27,078
His conversation with
Professor Shaul Ladany
6
00:00:30,210 --> 00:00:32,009
Well, he had quite an amazing story.
7
00:00:32,370 --> 00:00:35,520
we first learned about him from
one of our longtime members who
8
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,280
sent us a link to a news article.
9
00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:39,059
we reached out.
10
00:00:39,060 --> 00:00:40,280
We were able to contact him.
11
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,689
He was interested in, in talking to us.
12
00:00:43,070 --> 00:00:44,800
We had a bit of a challenge.
13
00:00:45,010 --> 00:00:48,119
we had some technical issues, so we
wound up doing it over the phone and,
14
00:00:48,670 --> 00:00:50,110
had a seven-hour time difference.
15
00:00:50,170 --> 00:00:55,940
But it was an amazing story, and he
has a story that, you, you, you can't
16
00:00:55,940 --> 00:00:57,319
believe it until you hear him tell it.
17
00:00:57,319 --> 00:00:59,689
He grew up in Yugoslavia
during World War II.
18
00:01:00,369 --> 00:01:03,569
His family escaped to Hungary and
ended up in a concentration camp.
19
00:01:04,909 --> 00:01:08,719
they got out alive at the end of the
war, so he survived the Holocaust.
20
00:01:09,179 --> 00:01:10,490
Later got his education.
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00:01:10,490 --> 00:01:12,059
His family settled in Israel.
22
00:01:12,890 --> 00:01:15,850
he became a teacher, then
a competitive race walker.
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00:01:16,649 --> 00:01:22,340
Ended up being selected to the
Israeli Olympic team twice, 1968 and
24
00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:24,720
1972, and of course, those are the
Olympics held in Munich, Germany,
25
00:01:25,269 --> 00:01:29,559
when a militant group overran the
Israeli team compound, took hostages.
26
00:01:29,559 --> 00:01:32,850
11 of the members were killed,
but he escaped that as well.
27
00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:35,839
He and many, of his team members
were able to escape that building.
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00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,000
So it's just an incredible tale
of survival and a lifetime of
29
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,799
problem-solving, and we thought
it was a very inspirational story.
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00:01:43,999 --> 00:01:47,699
And when you listen to the episode now,
what stands out to you most, and what do
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00:01:47,699 --> 00:01:49,669
you hope listeners will take away from it?
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00:01:50,359 --> 00:01:52,479
Well, part of it is his resolve.
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00:01:52,529 --> 00:01:56,470
I mean, he went through these amazing
experiences, and yet at, at the end, he
34
00:01:56,470 --> 00:01:59,459
mentions he has no bitterness, in general.
35
00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:01,729
he learned from the experience.
36
00:02:01,759 --> 00:02:06,309
I, I, I think, you know, he doesn't talk
in detail, but he was able to apply his,
37
00:02:07,029 --> 00:02:12,680
education and experience to being able to
survive these, various challenges in life.
38
00:02:13,019 --> 00:02:16,510
Went on to a successful teaching
career and led many students
39
00:02:16,529 --> 00:02:18,529
to, their successful careers.
40
00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:21,599
in that way, he's quite an inspiration.
41
00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:27,289
In fact, at the time we spoke to him a few
years ago, he was well into his, late 80s.
42
00:02:27,289 --> 00:02:33,329
He was still involved at his university
and still race walking, at, at that age.
43
00:02:33,329 --> 00:02:37,729
So, anyone with that kind of
inspirational story can certainly,
44
00:02:39,219 --> 00:02:43,149
set an example for us all on how to
conduct ourselves through a life.
45
00:02:43,550 --> 00:02:47,350
Here's the original episode and Keith's
conversation with Professor Ladany.
46
00:02:54,744 --> 00:02:57,534
Keith Albertson, managing
editor of ISE Magazine.
47
00:02:57,764 --> 00:02:59,704
Today's guest is Shaul Ladany.
48
00:02:59,894 --> 00:03:04,113
He's a professor emeritus of industrial
engineering at Ben-Gurion University
49
00:03:04,114 --> 00:03:06,533
of the Negev in Beersheba, Israel.
50
00:03:06,574 --> 00:03:10,393
In addition to his noted academic
career as an instructor, researcher,
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00:03:10,394 --> 00:03:14,323
and author, he also excelled as a
world-class athlete and as a Holocaust
52
00:03:14,324 --> 00:03:18,934
survivor who as a child spent six months
in a concentration camp in Germany.
53
00:03:19,084 --> 00:03:24,193
As a competitive race walker, Professor
Ladany set records that still stand, and
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00:03:24,193 --> 00:03:27,744
he competed in the 1968 and 1972 Olympics.
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00:03:27,783 --> 00:03:30,793
In his second trip to the games
in Munich, Germany, he was one of
56
00:03:30,793 --> 00:03:33,753
the Israeli athletes who escaped
a terrorist attack that claimed
57
00:03:33,754 --> 00:03:35,754
the lives of 11 of his teammates.
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00:03:35,824 --> 00:03:38,853
In a recent phone interview from
his home in Israel, he discussed
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00:03:38,853 --> 00:03:43,193
his background, his athletic
career, and his academic efforts.
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00:03:50,926 --> 00:03:54,886
Professor Ladany begins by discussing
his childhood background and how
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00:03:54,886 --> 00:03:58,536
his family provided the first
introduction to science and engineering.
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00:03:59,226 --> 00:04:03,206
I was born in a middle-class family.
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00:04:03,546 --> 00:04:07,715
My father was a chemical
engineer and a patent attorney.
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00:04:08,366 --> 00:04:15,255
E- even his, uncle that was almost his
brother, he became a doctor of chemistry.
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00:04:15,885 --> 00:04:24,655
And so whatever I remember f- from my
childhood and later on, the discussions
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00:04:24,935 --> 00:04:32,160
at home were usually on science and
engineering And nobody told me that
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00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:35,090
I should study engineering and so on.
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00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:40,539
whatever I heard at home,
that influenced my interest.
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00:04:42,020 --> 00:04:47,859
And my… By the way, my father, one of
his teache- teachers, was Fritz Haber.
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00:04:48,259 --> 00:04:57,419
Fritz Haber got the Nobel Prize for trying
to get the, the nitrogen out of air.
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00:04:57,429 --> 00:04:57,439
Oh.
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00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,790
And, for some period of time,
my father worked with, Theodor,
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00:05:05,129 --> 00:05:12,059
Reichstein, who got the Nobel Prize,
not in chemistry, but in, medicine.
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00:05:12,589 --> 00:05:14,499
but he was a, a chemist.
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00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:21,069
among ma- many things, the, he was
the first to synthesize vitamin C.
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00:05:21,230 --> 00:05:25,719
So you see, my father
was also an able person.
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00:05:26,179 --> 00:05:29,559
Professor Ladany talks about his
family's struggles during the war
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00:05:29,819 --> 00:05:33,149
and the challenges they faced in
an effort to escape the Nazis.
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00:05:33,980 --> 00:05:41,459
I was born in Belgrade, and at age
five, I was already bombed by the
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00:05:41,459 --> 00:05:47,670
Germans when they attacked in a
surprise attack, Yugoslavia in '41.
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00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:48,539
Mm-hmm.
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00:05:48,539 --> 00:05:53,330
So I evidenced that awful
thing of being bombed.
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00:05:53,739 --> 00:06:03,839
I evidenced, escaping, then, trying to
escape out of Yugoslavia, taking the
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00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:12,869
risk, the risk of if we are caught on the
other side, on the Hungarian side, then we
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00:06:12,869 --> 00:06:17,930
will be… And they will discover that we
are Jews, we will be killed on the spot.
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00:06:18,340 --> 00:06:23,499
And if we remain in Serbia,
they might, kill us there.
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00:06:23,509 --> 00:06:28,650
And indeed, many of, of those that
remained there, most of them were
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00:06:28,660 --> 00:06:36,480
gassed, gas in trucks for the, with
the exhaust fumes of, of the engines.
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00:06:36,809 --> 00:06:44,040
That was the first attempt that the Nazis
killed Jews by g- by g- gassing them.
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00:06:44,420 --> 00:06:49,230
And then we, we have
been, refugees in Hungary.
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00:06:50,209 --> 00:06:53,920
I have been for, for a
time also in a monastery.
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00:06:54,259 --> 00:06:58,589
Awful times, and not because they did
something wrong to me, because I was
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00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:05,099
afraid that it will be discovered, that
I'm a Jew, and then I will be killed.
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00:07:05,780 --> 00:07:11,540
And then I, I was in ghetto, and
then later on, half a year in the
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00:07:11,599 --> 00:07:13,649
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.
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00:07:13,939 --> 00:07:20,269
So I had some, some experience
what it meant, Holocaust.
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00:07:20,980 --> 00:07:21,759
Mm-hmm.
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00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:24,999
And how were you able to,
how were you able to escape?
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00:07:25,009 --> 00:07:27,309
You were helped by a
group in America, correct?
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00:07:27,886 --> 00:07:33,036
It's a long story written,
both in my autobiography.
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00:07:33,336 --> 00:07:40,966
Toward the end of the war, in, in a
exchange, exchange of, close to 2,000
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00:07:41,025 --> 00:07:44,175
Jews, we were transferred to Switzerland.
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00:07:48,224 --> 00:07:51,774
After they lost everything during
the war, Ladany's family looked to
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00:07:51,774 --> 00:07:55,244
rebuild their lives and eventually
settled in the new nation of Israel
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00:07:58,132 --> 00:08:05,272
After the war, we returned to Yugoslavia
and, because there were no alternatives.
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00:08:05,992 --> 00:08:11,622
So the, you probably know, United
States did not, allow Jewish
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00:08:11,661 --> 00:08:14,371
immigrants in masses to come in.
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00:08:14,652 --> 00:08:19,381
There were very small quotas
and neither to Palestine.
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00:08:19,771 --> 00:08:25,301
Most of the Jews, surviving Jews
wanted to get to Palestine, but the
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00:08:25,341 --> 00:08:30,512
British authorities that had the
mandate to Palestine closed the door.
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00:08:30,902 --> 00:08:34,702
They had a quota of 2,000 people per year.
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00:08:35,422 --> 00:08:36,222
That's nothing.
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00:08:36,632 --> 00:08:43,972
So we returned to Yugoslavia, rebuilt or
repaired the bombed villa of my parents.
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00:08:44,281 --> 00:08:51,511
They started the factory that my father
had and so on, until the state of
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00:08:51,711 --> 00:08:59,891
Israel was established, and then as
a condition for leaving Yugoslavia to
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00:08:59,921 --> 00:09:03,431
Israel, we had to give up everything.
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00:09:04,072 --> 00:09:10,151
Have you seen people that are willing
to give up all their property just for
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00:09:10,521 --> 00:09:15,901
the right to leave the, country and
to get to the country of their wish?
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00:09:16,821 --> 00:09:20,952
Ladany's family faced many hardships
in their early years in Israel, but
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00:09:20,952 --> 00:09:23,941
they were able to finally create
a home as he began his academic
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00:09:23,941 --> 00:09:25,931
studies and his athletic career.
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00:09:26,511 --> 00:09:30,071
What was it like in Israel those
early days as a young nation?
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00:09:30,081 --> 00:09:30,101
How
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00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:36,891
did- I, I, I can tell you after two
weeks, we got some old house without
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00:09:36,931 --> 00:09:41,291
electricity, without running water, in
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00:09:43,591 --> 00:09:48,011
the garden, a primi- primitive
Turkish closet, no kitchen.
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00:09:49,231 --> 00:09:55,892
I, as a not yet 13 year old, w-
walked with two buckets to the
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00:09:55,941 --> 00:10:03,819
only place about a mile away to
get water And bring water to us
129
00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:06,439
But you were free, so it
was worth it at the time
130
00:10:06,439 --> 00:10:06,770
after
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00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:08,080
all- But we were, we were free.
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00:10:08,610 --> 00:10:08,990
Yes.
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00:10:09,020 --> 00:10:15,900
It's very difficult, really to imagine
such, such conditions, of life.
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00:10:16,439 --> 00:10:23,120
And I was able then to participate
in the first Israeli marathon
135
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:30,470
competition, the first in '56, and
in the competition there were only 10
136
00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:34,289
competitors without proper training.
137
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,819
Lidani's career as a race walker
began in Israel at a long-distance
138
00:10:38,849 --> 00:10:42,119
walking event and later led him
to more competitive efforts.
139
00:10:42,379 --> 00:10:45,989
I found out that I have
excellent walking abilities.
140
00:10:46,210 --> 00:10:53,589
One or two years later on, I entered
the first time the Israeli National
141
00:10:54,160 --> 00:11:01,549
Championship in race walking, and, have
beaten the Israeli champion of that time,
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00:11:02,469 --> 00:11:10,449
for, at the distance of 3,000 meters,
l- a little less than 22 miles, by, by,
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00:11:10,589 --> 00:11:17,490
which is, seven and a half laps in a
stadium, and, I have beaten him by almost
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00:11:17,490 --> 00:11:24,548
a full lap And from that, that time
on, I became a full-time race walker.
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00:11:25,308 --> 00:11:29,857
After he served in the Israeli
military, ladany began pursuing academic
146
00:11:29,898 --> 00:11:31,718
degrees in mechanical engineering.
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00:11:32,028 --> 00:11:34,997
He sought his PhD in business
administration and later
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00:11:34,997 --> 00:11:36,807
studied industrial engineering.
149
00:11:37,148 --> 00:11:42,227
Immediately after the military service,
I started mechanical engineering.
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00:11:42,977 --> 00:11:47,838
Industrial engineering studies did
not exist at that time in Israel.
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00:11:49,077 --> 00:11:57,157
Only one year l- after, the start of, of
my studies, they started such a program.
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00:11:57,677 --> 00:12:02,638
I got a degree in mechanical engineering
and then a master's degree in mechanical
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00:12:02,638 --> 00:12:10,477
engineering, and later on I got married
after, getting my first degree and moved
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00:12:10,717 --> 00:12:18,467
to Jerusalem where my wife, worked for
PhD in, biochemistry, endocrinology.
155
00:12:19,627 --> 00:12:26,538
And, the … My first job
was manager of the mechanical
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00:12:27,307 --> 00:12:29,617
workshop of the Hebrew University.
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00:12:30,248 --> 00:12:37,372
So after a year, I, I, I wanted to,
to stay to continue my study there in
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00:12:37,372 --> 00:12:43,227
Jerusalem, and I found out that since
in, at the Hebrew University there
159
00:12:43,248 --> 00:12:52,218
was never any program in, technical
studies, that, the option to do a PhD
160
00:12:53,108 --> 00:12:58,877
in physics is closed because the, they
saw that my engineering background
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00:12:59,157 --> 00:13:04,497
provides very little, what they needed
for their physic- physics program.
162
00:13:05,037 --> 00:13:11,308
And I found out that they started, some
new field Never heard about it before.
163
00:13:11,848 --> 00:13:15,568
And, I'm speaking about, year of '62.
164
00:13:16,218 --> 00:13:17,558
what was that new field?
165
00:13:18,387 --> 00:13:19,988
Business administration.
166
00:13:20,517 --> 00:13:20,887
Mm-hmm.
167
00:13:20,917 --> 00:13:27,277
And, there I studied and got an
additional second degree in business
168
00:13:27,277 --> 00:13:32,137
ad- administration, but specializing
in the quantitative, field.
169
00:13:33,257 --> 00:13:37,818
I was sent by the university
for my doctoral studies.
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00:13:38,367 --> 00:13:43,737
They thought that, I'm suitable to
teach in a business administration
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00:13:43,738 --> 00:13:45,868
program, production management.
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00:13:47,018 --> 00:13:54,037
I was, sent and, was accepted by
Columbia University, and there I was
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00:13:54,037 --> 00:13:58,727
accepted by the is- School of Business
Administration, but I took courses
174
00:13:58,727 --> 00:14:04,187
in the School of, Engineering in the
Department of, Industrial Engineering.
175
00:14:04,517 --> 00:14:08,787
So one of my loved teachers,
Sebastian Littauer.
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00:14:08,787 --> 00:14:09,107
Sebastian Littauer
177
00:14:13,137 --> 00:14:15,978
got the Sch- Schubert, Award.
178
00:14:16,447 --> 00:14:23,258
When I finished my master's degree
at, at Technion in Israel, in Israel
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00:14:23,258 --> 00:14:26,357
there was no computer yet of any kind.
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00:14:26,797 --> 00:14:37,017
Only later on, around '61, '62, they
started to construct a hu- at the
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00:14:37,017 --> 00:14:44,317
Weizmann Institute of, Institute of
Science, a huge computer in a hall at
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00:14:44,328 --> 00:14:48,997
the length of maybe 25 yards and so on.
183
00:14:49,367 --> 00:14:57,367
A computer made of, ten thousands
of diodes with a computing power
184
00:14:57,737 --> 00:15:01,407
less than, the computing power of
185
00:15:04,757 --> 00:15:05,767
a common calculator,
electronic calculator today.
186
00:15:06,357 --> 00:15:13,847
When I got to Columbia University for
my PhD program, for my thesis, Columbia
187
00:15:13,907 --> 00:15:16,787
University did not have yet any computer.
188
00:15:17,157 --> 00:15:22,557
And remember that the business
school was named after Watson.
189
00:15:23,037 --> 00:15:28,167
Watson was the president of, IBM.
190
00:15:28,797 --> 00:15:29,128
Mm-hmm.
191
00:15:30,018 --> 00:15:34,118
Nevertheless, they did
not have yet any computer.
192
00:15:34,957 --> 00:15:38,917
While seeking his doctoral degree
at Columbia University in New York,
193
00:15:39,277 --> 00:15:43,118
Ladany began training more seriously
as a long-distance race walker with
194
00:15:43,118 --> 00:15:47,227
former U.S. Olympians, and he soon
began breaking long-standing records
195
00:15:47,227 --> 00:15:48,987
while aiming for the Olympic Games.
196
00:15:54,104 --> 00:16:01,684
During my, time at Columbia University,
obviously when I arrived, I was
197
00:16:01,694 --> 00:16:09,094
already Israeli ch- champion, race
walking champion, but, not at the
198
00:16:09,393 --> 00:16:12,434
results that were, of high level.
199
00:16:13,194 --> 00:16:17,973
Before I left for the United
States, in Israel I participated
200
00:16:18,043 --> 00:16:19,484
in the Maccabiah Games.
201
00:16:19,963 --> 00:16:21,023
Maccabiah in, in Israel.
202
00:16:21,764 --> 00:16:27,803
Maccabiah Games are a k- kind of
classy Olympic Games for Jews.
203
00:16:28,193 --> 00:16:28,463
Right.
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00:16:28,743 --> 00:16:34,294
And, there I met somebody from United
States, and he told me when I arrive
205
00:16:34,303 --> 00:16:42,143
for doctoral studies, he will introduce
me to the US, walkers, in New York, and
206
00:16:42,143 --> 00:16:44,253
I could train with them on weekends.
207
00:16:44,603 --> 00:16:51,433
And indeed, I started to train on many
of the weekends together with them and,
208
00:16:51,893 --> 00:16:55,363
learn on common, problems that we had.
209
00:16:55,793 --> 00:17:02,724
And, I, I discovered that I
have exceptional abilities
210
00:17:03,013 --> 00:17:04,453
in the long distances.
211
00:17:05,324 --> 00:17:09,773
obviously I had to train for
it, and I trained, very hard.
212
00:17:10,174 --> 00:17:19,853
In '66, I have participated in
the Eastern Regional 50 Mile Ch-
213
00:17:19,853 --> 00:17:25,877
Race Walking Championship in New
Jersey Won it and broke the oldest
214
00:17:26,328 --> 00:17:30,578
United States record of any kind.
215
00:17:30,928 --> 00:17:34,268
It was an 80-year-old record.
216
00:17:34,718 --> 00:17:38,598
I set for the 50 mile,
eight hours 35 minutes.
217
00:17:38,917 --> 00:17:47,627
My wife told me, this is probably
the best, best or the largest
218
00:17:47,628 --> 00:17:54,327
success that I will ever have in
my life, and, I agreed with her.
219
00:17:54,857 --> 00:17:54,887
Hmm.
220
00:17:55,097 --> 00:17:57,628
But next year, I,
221
00:18:01,357 --> 00:18:08,958
in '67, I, improved my own US record and
lowered the, the record to eight, 11.
222
00:18:09,337 --> 00:18:16,867
In '68, I improved my own
record, US record to 8:05.
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00:18:17,737 --> 00:18:20,107
And, obviously I was,
224
00:18:22,398 --> 00:18:27,727
with training with the US walkers
that many of them were ex-Olympians
225
00:18:28,077 --> 00:18:32,298
and, or had Olympics aspirations.
226
00:18:32,298 --> 00:18:36,087
I got that, also the same aspiration.
227
00:18:36,588 --> 00:18:44,547
And I have broken the Israeli
standard for the Mexico Olympic Games.
228
00:18:45,307 --> 00:18:53,247
And immediately as I got my PhD, 1st of
February '68, and the Olympic Games were,
229
00:18:53,577 --> 00:19:01,137
late October, instead of ta-taking on
any job, teaching job, I did nothing else
230
00:19:01,357 --> 00:19:04,497
but just trained, for the Olympic Games.
231
00:19:05,334 --> 00:19:13,294
And, I, I really became quite successful,
participated in the, in the Mexico in the
232
00:19:13,294 --> 00:19:21,734
Olympic Games, returned to Israel, started
my academic career at Tel Aviv University.
233
00:19:22,263 --> 00:19:24,363
But, in, in 1970, I returned to
234
00:19:26,433 --> 00:19:32,844
U- to United States for that 50-mile
championship, reduced my own 50-mile
235
00:19:33,114 --> 00:19:41,523
record to seven hours and I believe
57 minutes or something like this.
236
00:19:41,693 --> 00:19:43,243
That was in 1970.
237
00:19:43,673 --> 00:19:54,894
And, obviously I, in '69, I, in Israel,
I, wanted to try to repeat Olympic
238
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fever to get for the second time to
the Olympic Games, for the '72 games.
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And, in
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'70, '71, I had started
seriously to train.
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In '72, I flew again to the United States
to proceed- participate in the same
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50-mile championship.
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And not only that I have broke, improved
my own US record, but set a world record
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of seven hours, 23 minutes and 50 seconds.
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Remember, I started with
5:30, 8:35, eight hours 35.
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Now I reduced it to 7:23, and until
today, it's still world record.
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Wow.
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00:20:42,784 --> 00:20:47,373
Ladany describes his early teaching
career in Israel and how he emphasized
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to his students the need to think
through problems on their own
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rather than memorize various methods
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00:20:55,139 --> 00:21:00,439
In, '75, I joined the Bangalore
University in the Department of Industrial
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Engineering, but really I did not change
my field, only the department that
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00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:14,580
employed me changed because in all my
academic career, I dealt with quantitative
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00:21:14,779 --> 00:21:21,169
subjects, quality control, production
management, and operations research.
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00:21:21,679 --> 00:21:23,350
Mm-hmm.
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00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:26,499
That was my field, and, I stayed with it.
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I don't know what brought me to understand
the field of, how to try to educate
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00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:40,549
pe- people in industrial engineering,
but not only in industrial engineering,
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at least in quantitative fields.
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And when I'm saying, operations
research, I… That's a part
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of industrial engineering.
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Initially, you have to provide always
the basics, the tools, but then you
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have to teach people how to try, how to
think, how, how to try to solve problems,
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problems that they have never seen before.
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00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:18,509
Such approach can be done only after, you
have provided them with some basic tools.
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Right.
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And, even in, various, examinations, I
never asked, and I told my students in
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advance, never to memorize anything.
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I let them to have an open book at
examination, whatever book they decided
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00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:46,369
to have with them, and let them to
write in the book whatever they wanted.
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But in the, in the examination, I provided
them with a problem With the problem.
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So, problem where they, they had
to, to find out really what the real
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problem is, and then how to approach
it, h- and how to try to solve it.
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Mm-hmm.
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The moment that you know how to try to
solve it, then, then they, there are
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many possibilities, for the solutions.
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If you teach them just, with, with
various methods and so on, they
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don't get that habit of thinking
how to try to cope with problems.
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The education has changed.
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As always, the, changes appear.
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00:23:38,983 --> 00:23:44,523
I heard that in 1910s, there was
electrical engineering and mechanical
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00:23:44,663 --> 00:23:51,164
engineering in one department, one, one
subject, and they got separated later on.
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00:23:51,393 --> 00:23:57,053
So separations, divisions, that's
the rule of, of the changes.
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00:23:57,134 --> 00:24:03,394
Out of, our department or inside the
department, we have also robotics and
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00:24:03,404 --> 00:24:08,764
all the different fields that deal
with data management, information
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00:24:08,764 --> 00:24:11,703
systems, and so on, more and more.
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00:24:12,548 --> 00:24:17,088
It's all in the same scope,
but, we had, we have also ge-
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generated additional departments.
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00:24:21,208 --> 00:24:25,415
You might also group them together under
the umbrella of industrial engineering.
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00:24:25,415 --> 00:24:26,658
I would say that the, students at,
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00:24:34,767 --> 00:24:41,668
colleges in industrial engineering are
qualified technicians, most of them.
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00:24:41,847 --> 00:24:43,467
There are exceptions, obviously.
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00:24:43,547 --> 00:24:51,148
On the other hand, at the universities,
the students have much higher intellectual
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abilities, and, they get a much
better, preparation, and they are able
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00:24:59,148 --> 00:25:01,568
to cope much better with problems.
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00:25:02,468 --> 00:25:06,837
Obviously, there are exceptions,
but, this is the situation.
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00:25:07,087 --> 00:25:12,038
Now, in Uni- United States, I know
you have so many universities and
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so many colleges, a- and you, you
don't expect that a small state
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college would have the same ability
as a graduate of Stanford or MIT.
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00:25:25,727 --> 00:25:25,957
Ladani
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00:25:26,857 --> 00:25:31,097
discusses the growth of industrial and
systems engineering in Israel and the
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00:25:31,098 --> 00:25:33,277
different fields in which it is applied.
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00:25:33,977 --> 00:25:41,178
Yes, it is growing, and they
are working in various fields,
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not necessarily in, production.
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00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:47,487
Well, most of them are not in production.
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00:25:48,028 --> 00:25:54,417
Many of them in various services,
transportation, banking, and in the
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00:25:54,418 --> 00:26:01,768
recent years, in various, startups
which they are become programmers.
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00:26:03,657 --> 00:26:09,538
this is in, in my, my view, not what
we would ever like them to, to do.
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00:26:09,697 --> 00:26:16,977
But, since in Israel there are so
many new startups and mainly, dealing
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00:26:16,988 --> 00:26:21,146
with various, information systems.
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Ladany discusses his teaching
and research efforts and the
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00:26:24,586 --> 00:26:26,546
publications he's been part of.
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00:26:26,886 --> 00:26:30,886
Now, I can tell a few
things about my, myself.
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00:26:30,886 --> 00:26:41,956
I was one of the first that, started,
started the integration of production,
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00:26:42,006 --> 00:26:45,816
marketing, pricing, and inventory.
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00:26:46,185 --> 00:26:49,605
I published, something in around,
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00:26:51,966 --> 00:26:52,136
1970.
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00:26:52,136 --> 00:26:58,805
This was-- it, it started in many, many
other publications where the problem of
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00:26:58,845 --> 00:27:06,065
integrating simultaneously or, problems
from all those fields were there.
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00:27:07,965 --> 00:27:11,405
like, likewise, I followed,
don't know whether you heard the
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00:27:11,406 --> 00:27:17,985
names Dodge and Romig in quality
control, in, in sampling and so on.
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00:27:18,345 --> 00:27:24,526
But, I studied those things, but I was
one of the first, if not the first,
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00:27:24,855 --> 00:27:30,635
that started economic optimization
in quality control, taking into
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00:27:30,635 --> 00:27:33,795
cons-consideration the various costs.
325
00:27:34,376 --> 00:27:34,785
Mm-hmm.
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00:27:35,126 --> 00:27:43,586
Likewise, I was the first that, started
to take into consideration in, economic
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00:27:43,615 --> 00:27:47,856
consideration in setting warranty periods.
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00:27:48,376 --> 00:27:56,745
And, I was, one of the first that started
to apply operations research, really
329
00:27:56,946 --> 00:28:01,585
optimization in, sports decisions.
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00:28:02,095 --> 00:28:07,965
Was the editor of a special
issue of management science, of
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00:28:07,965 --> 00:28:11,005
another issue, and, of, two books.
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00:28:11,376 --> 00:28:18,546
Plus, I wrote the, the entry on that
subject on three editions of, of the
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00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:25,115
Encyclopedia of Management Science and
Operations Research, and published,
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00:28:26,336 --> 00:28:33,376
Maybe 15 papers or more, more on
that sub-- more on that subject.
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00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:41,126
So optimization, what, supports many of
the decisions were usually intuitive.
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00:28:41,845 --> 00:28:45,905
Professor Emeritus since 2006.
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00:28:46,255 --> 00:28:52,315
I'm still, engaged in research,
dealing with, trying to find
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00:28:52,526 --> 00:28:53,955
the coordinates of targets.
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00:28:54,555 --> 00:29:00,706
Published, several papers on that,
and especially presently, trying
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00:29:00,725 --> 00:29:02,966
to f- to find the best method.
341
00:29:02,966 --> 00:29:10,775
There are several method, methods to find,
to estimate the point of intersection
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00:29:11,185 --> 00:29:20,156
of, rotated ellipses in the space when
they should have had a common point
343
00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:22,306
of intersection, but they do not have.
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00:29:23,056 --> 00:29:25,265
And there are several me-methods.
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00:29:25,606 --> 00:29:30,535
All of them take a different time,
and all of them provide different
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00:29:30,546 --> 00:29:37,455
accuracies, and, to, to try to
evaluate, those different methods.
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00:29:41,606 --> 00:29:45,316
Ladany discusses how he's staying
active as a race walker, including
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00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:47,245
a longtime birthday tradition
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00:29:51,207 --> 00:29:53,288
I'm still race walking.
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00:29:54,248 --> 00:30:00,147
up to, simply I would say,
since my 50th birthday, at that
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00:30:00,148 --> 00:30:02,197
time I was at Georgia Tech.
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00:30:03,148 --> 00:30:09,858
I started to celebrate my birthday,
birth- birthdays by walking o- one
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00:30:09,888 --> 00:30:14,528
kilometer for each year of my age.
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00:30:14,528 --> 00:30:18,197
My 83rd birthday, I walked 83 kilometers.
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00:30:18,518 --> 00:30:24,728
Planned in, in, April 84,
this year, to do 80…
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00:30:25,638 --> 00:30:29,878
a walk of 84 kilometers,
but then, came the corona.
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00:30:30,197 --> 00:30:39,097
And, but, on 28th of Apr… of, February,
I still walked the Tel Aviv Marathon,
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00:30:39,827 --> 00:30:47,247
a full ma- distance of marathon,
which is, 42 kilometers, 26 miles.
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00:30:48,007 --> 00:30:54,442
I still walked it, being the oldest
participant in the marathon Whether I will
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00:30:54,442 --> 00:31:01,842
be able to do next year, which is in seven
months now, 85 kilometers, I don't know.
361
00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:08,902
What I can say that since we are not
getting younger, neither myself, I feel
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00:31:08,962 --> 00:31:17,581
from year to year how every mile gets
longer and how every slope gets steeper.
363
00:31:19,221 --> 00:31:22,281
Here, Ladany discusses how he
might be remembered for his
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00:31:22,281 --> 00:31:24,442
athletic and academic careers.
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00:31:24,592 --> 00:31:27,131
I don't know how I will be remembered.
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00:31:27,131 --> 00:31:35,672
I know that I from-- I got awards,
unusual awards from two directions,
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00:31:35,892 --> 00:31:37,661
which I know that is unusual.
368
00:31:38,341 --> 00:31:44,351
By the way, I, I won also the
100-kilometer world championship after
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00:31:44,352 --> 00:31:54,001
Munich, a month after it, and I won master
championships and set a world record in
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00:31:54,281 --> 00:31:58,571
the 100 mile for the 70-plus age group.
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00:31:59,521 --> 00:32:06,901
From the port side, the International
Olympic Committee awarded me the
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00:32:06,901 --> 00:32:07,661
Baron Pierre de Coubertin medal.
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00:32:07,681 --> 00:32:09,562
Baron Pierre de Coubertin
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00:32:12,872 --> 00:32:19,322
was the one that resumed the
Olympic Games- Right … or
375
00:32:19,322 --> 00:32:25,611
restarted Olympic Games, modern
Olympic Games in 1896, I believe.
376
00:32:26,461 --> 00:32:26,981
'
96, yes.
377
00:32:27,291 --> 00:32:27,452
Mm-hmm.
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00:32:27,671 --> 00:32:32,192
And he directed several of
the first Olympic Games.
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00:32:32,711 --> 00:32:36,322
So he-- And that award is a very rare one.
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00:32:36,571 --> 00:32:39,811
I got it for my achieve-
unusual achievements.
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00:32:40,281 --> 00:32:46,991
On the other side, in Israel, I got
several lifetime achievement awards in
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00:32:49,521 --> 00:32:49,901
industrial engineering.
383
00:32:50,241 --> 00:32:58,241
So I am very proud that I was awarded
both for my sports achievements as
384
00:32:58,281 --> 00:33:01,221
well as for my academic achievements.
385
00:33:01,731 --> 00:33:04,761
How long I will be
remembered, I don't know.
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00:33:05,061 --> 00:33:09,571
In closing, Ladany discusses the lessons
learned from his long and adventurous
387
00:33:09,571 --> 00:33:11,881
life that he can pass along to others.
388
00:33:13,204 --> 00:33:16,604
Yeah, I don't hate people, but I remember.
389
00:33:16,724 --> 00:33:23,074
I, I, I, I, I have a good memory still,
although it is fading, fading for names,
390
00:33:23,254 --> 00:33:25,744
but still I have a good, good memory.
391
00:33:26,103 --> 00:33:32,893
What I can tell you what is important,
for persons, first, that I learned
392
00:33:32,913 --> 00:33:37,653
from, from the Holocaust, you should,
y- you should take care of yourself.
393
00:33:38,804 --> 00:33:42,014
Very few others, will try to help you.
394
00:33:42,624 --> 00:33:48,314
That's true as an individual,
and it's true also as a country.
395
00:33:48,503 --> 00:33:48,814
Mm-hmm.
396
00:33:48,904 --> 00:33:50,214
Only if it's in their interest.
397
00:33:50,233 --> 00:33:55,143
I don't know how much you are
aware of, history of Czechoslovakia
398
00:33:55,704 --> 00:34:01,483
when, Nazi Germany, took part
of them first, the, the Sudetes.
399
00:34:01,943 --> 00:34:04,164
Nobody intervened and so on.
400
00:34:04,523 --> 00:34:08,803
If you are not strong enough, if
you, you cannot defend yourself,
401
00:34:09,463 --> 00:34:16,423
you might lose a lot, including your
own life, your own independence.
402
00:34:16,493 --> 00:34:17,543
You should be strong.
403
00:34:18,144 --> 00:34:22,534
Second, you always might
lose all your assets.
404
00:34:23,113 --> 00:34:30,753
My father lost, look, we left, in
Yugoslavia everything that we had.
405
00:34:31,313 --> 00:34:33,183
Never got any compensation.
406
00:34:33,523 --> 00:34:41,323
His, young uncle that I mentioned, he,
he has started from scratch, and he
407
00:34:41,473 --> 00:34:51,109
has, built the largest pharmaceutical
concern of Yugoslavia It was taken
408
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:58,819
away as a Jewish property in '41
by the Nazi regime of Croatia,
409
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,160
then in the-- became independent.
410
00:35:01,549 --> 00:35:05,529
Then it wa-- it, it
was nationalized by the
411
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,259
communists, and no penny
was ever restituted.
412
00:35:11,749 --> 00:35:17,859
It was sold, by the way, just, yeah,
I, I want to point out wh-uh, what
413
00:35:18,270 --> 00:35:20,699
type of property we are speaking.
414
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:24,811
It was sold, only, only the
con-- the pharmaceutical concern.
415
00:35:24,811 --> 00:35:25,100
Not houses, not,
416
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:29,499
yachts and, and so on.
417
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:37,029
It was sold, sold for two and a half
billion dollars about 10 or 15 years ago
418
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,450
to an Israeli pharmaceutical concern.
419
00:35:39,469 --> 00:35:39,569
Hmm.
420
00:35:39,919 --> 00:35:40,149
Two
421
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,910
and a half billion dollars.
422
00:35:42,219 --> 00:35:45,679
The family did not receive
a penny restitution.
423
00:35:45,899 --> 00:35:46,980
What remains?
424
00:35:47,429 --> 00:35:53,489
What remains when you lose your
knowledge and your ability to earn.
425
00:35:53,839 --> 00:36:03,309
You have to educate people so that
such causes that, caused in the 1930s
426
00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:11,600
in Germany the lack of democracy and
then the rise of the Nazi Party, you
427
00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:18,610
have to teach, teach, teach children
and people h-how to keep democracy
428
00:36:30,158 --> 00:36:35,078
Professor Shaul Ladany's story is one
of extraordinary resilience, but also
429
00:36:35,078 --> 00:36:39,657
of perseverance, curiosity, and a
lifelong drive to keep moving forward.
430
00:36:40,368 --> 00:36:44,328
Our thanks to Professor Ladany for
sharing his remarkable life and career,
431
00:36:44,698 --> 00:36:48,888
and to Keith Albertson for choosing this
conversation as one worth revisiting.
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00:36:49,388 --> 00:36:52,307
And if you haven't already, make
sure you follow Problem Solved
433
00:36:52,317 --> 00:36:55,468
wherever you listen to podcasts so
you don't miss what's coming next.
434
00:36:56,107 --> 00:36:58,757
Thank you for listening to
this special from the archives
435
00:36:58,787 --> 00:37:00,407
edition of Problem Solved.
436
00:37:00,897 --> 00:37:03,458
Every great solution is
a story worth telling
