99 | Interview with Giles Brown on Talk Radio Europe about Wartime London's 'Bonnie and Clyde'

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Let's talk talk.
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From London's wartime London's Bonnie and Clyde, the Crime Spree
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of Betty Jones and Carl Hulton. That's shot across wartime London.
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It is the new book by Prash and Melissa Ganandred
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under like to say that the the intrepid crime fighting
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duo join me live underline now. Good, good afternoon, Well,
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good afternoon from us. Good morning to you too this morning.
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How are we all doing?
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Yeah, very well, thank you. That's great to be with you.
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Thank you.
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You've done this sort of thing before, haven't you. You know,
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you are this sort of crime fighting team, if if
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I've remember correctly, Yeah, so that's right.
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We're a husband and wife team. I'm very much the researcher.
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Melissa does the writing. We also we also run a
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through crime podcast and we write books, and we've been
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doing that for about aboust six years now.
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I'd say, yes, here here's the thing. Why are we
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so fascinating? Did you mentioned the podcast? You know? And
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I you know, I live in a house full of
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you know, I live in a house full of women, luckily,
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and they like nothing better than a true crime podcast
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or a true crime sit What is it about our
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psycha that we want to hear about crimes to explain
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it if you could please, Yeah, I think with the
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human nature always likes or loves a puzzle to get
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into the nitty gritty of why people do things. And
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they've also got a morbid curiosity as well, and I
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often come across that when I speak to some of
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my running the podcast speaks of my listeners. They're always
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very interested in why people do things, you know, what
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their backstories.
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Are, how they got there. And on the other.
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Hand, you do have the other types of true crime
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fans who are very much interested in the forensics aspects
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of things and the investigation. Some of them like the
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more glorious aspects of the crime.
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I would say yeah.
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I think for us though, we do really like to
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try and get into the backstories so that people involved,
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And particularly with this book with four Time London's Bonnie
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and Clyde, that was one of the things that drew
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us to it really was how these two people could
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could become and fall into this position.
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What started it Because one of the things I suppose
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is we think of you know, wartime Britain as being
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the Blitz and everybody behaving properly and you know, yes,
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up brightly. And of course it wasn't like that because
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it was blackout. There were most of the men were away.
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A load of people were having to sort of hustle,
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to put it mildly, to make a living. And this
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is this is perfect grounds for criminalitis. So explain the
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set the background if you will.
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Yes, So I mean, do you want me to do
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this one?
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Yeah?
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You go, oh, okay, okay, So yeah, I mean in
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nineteen forty four when Holton and Jones met for the
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first time in a cafe and Hammersmith, at this point
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crime had gone up about fifty percent compared to before
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the war. Obviously you had the blackout regulations in plays,
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there were there were numerous road traffic accidents, and you
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also had the influx of the foreign troops. American Canadian
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soldiers had come in preparation for the D Day landings,
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and as a result of this you had this cd
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underbelly of crime as well going on. With the police
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force depleted, you had more opportunity for criminals to loot,
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to assault, and obviously there was the black market aspect.
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We had the rise of the SPIV. For example, the
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chat with the pinstripes so and the pencil thin massage lintway,
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which is.
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I'm thinking, I'm thinking of the day.
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I'm thinking, you.
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Know, the great, the great Arthur Daily circa George was
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the actually George, thank you very much, the ultimate spheb
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of nineteen nineteen fifty ninety exactly.
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Yes, yes, and that's really what did it.
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And I think you also had the rise of the
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good time Girl as well, which is effectively a label
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for these young women who who went to seek gratifications,
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shall we say, from the troops, and they would socialize
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with the troops. They would they'd be given gifts, things
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like ration goods, things like chocolates, nylon stockings, that type
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of thing. They go to the dance halls and it
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was seen as a very very much a negative mark
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against them. And that's why they got this label because
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during the war years, most women were actually doing their
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bit for the country, you know, they were working in
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the munistons factories, working as AARP wardens. But you had
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this sedia aspect to it, and that's where obviously Betty
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and Carl come into this.
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Really, but if you think about it, I mean, yes,
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it's all very very noble in the whole thing. But
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if you're you know, if you're a nineteen year old
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girl and it's not like, you know, having it being
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a nineteen year old now very concerned, very boring background,
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and suddenly all the men have gone away, you've got rations,
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and suddenly the Americans and the Canadians turn up and
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they're all fit looking guys, and they've got wonderful uniforms,
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and they've got jamz and swing music. I mean, who's
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if you're not fully committed, or you're a bit flighty
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or thirty, then you know, hanging out with an American
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for cigarettes and nylons and whatever else is a little
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bit enticing, isn't it.
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Yeah, that's right.
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And for Betty in particular, I mean she she had
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grown up in a working class family in Nith in
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South Wales, and she later described it as a one
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horse town. She found it really boring, and she had
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always dreamed of being a dancer. She liked that idea
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of the glitz and glamour, so she ran away multiple times.
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Ultimately ran away and ended up in London. So that's
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how she sort of entered that environment of dancing in nightclubs.
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She did end up doing a couple of striptease acts
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as well, and that's how she got into that CD side.
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But I think there was that element of excitement. Everything
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was new and flashy. They've got chocolates, silk stockings and
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things that British men could not afford.
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And also you've got that, you know, because these are
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young men about to go off to war, you know,
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and a lot of them, I mean a lot of
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them haven't haven't seen woman or whatever. So they certainly
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haven't traveled to Europe before, and so to be you know,
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they don't you know, they don't want to go to
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the Royal Shakespeare Company or you know, go boating on
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the serpent or whatever. Do they they want to see
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They want to see women. They are men after all,
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and so you're catering for a market that's that's already there,
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he said, digging himself a very big pick, which hopefully
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Press will get him out of.
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It.
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Is yeah, I mean, yeah, there was very much sort
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of a market, certainly in Soho. I mean it was
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known at the time for several things, black market sex deserters,
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that kind of thing.
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I mean, yeah, I mean in places like, for example,
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Soho Piccadilly had what was used to be the respectable
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Lions Corner Houses, which were these all night restaurants, but
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when when the war came came along, they were being
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used as sort of de facto meeting places for selling
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and trading in black market goods, but also to pick
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up girls or as the American soldiers called them, commandos
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or prostitutes.
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Fair enough, this would this would go on a lot.
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You'd also have a lot of raids as well going
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on as well, And I think it was it was
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very exciting for somebody like Carl Holton who had deserted
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the army and because he because he had actually been
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left in charge of the Mtiple while his comrades went
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to fight in France.
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And he.
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Right, so explain, I mean who's so? Because I'm just
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so Betty Betty is there as as as a dancer
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quote unquote in there. And then it comes up, so
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who was Carla? I mean he's is it? Is he American?
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Is he British?
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Right?
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Where's where's where's he from? And how did their how
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did their path intersect?
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Yeah? I mean you want to take this one?
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Yeah?
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I think this one?
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Yeah, so Carl Holton was from Boston. He had grown
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up in a fairly stable household. They were very much
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working class, but had an ordinary childhood known as a
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bit of a class clown. He did very much like
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chasing girls, getting his haircut and so on. He got
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married and he actually had a baby daughter just about
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a week or two before he was sent across because
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scripted into the US Army and sent over to England.
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So he arrived in January forty four, and yeah, as
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Pash said he was, he was pretty bored and disillusioned
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because he actually wanted to go over to France for
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Operation Overlord, but he being a mechanic, he was stuck
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looking after the cars, went absent without leave, stole a weapon,
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stole supplies from the army to sell on the black
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market because he wasn't drawing his pay, so he had
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to get by somehow broken to shops and pubs and
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then their pass cross. So Betty was already in London,
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as we said, working as a dancer. They then met
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in a cafe in October of nineteen forty four and
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were introduced by a mutual friend who was Len Bexley,
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the Spith, the Black market here, so he knew both
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of them and he just introduced them and they agreed
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to meet later that night, and that was the stars
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of their brief but very reckless association.
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And presumably if he's gone a wall, I mean, I
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have people looking for him, but are there sort of
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more important fish to fry as it was because I've
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got a full police force, because most of the men
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are going to be, as you said, being air raid ins, blackouts,
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al thing. There are thousands, if not millions of young
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men in uniform in the you know, in the country
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around London, so he's not going to stick out. He
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can be a relatively sort of low key on this one.
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Yeah, yeah, So he flew under the radar quite literally
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because what had happened was when the when normally started up, effectively,
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men and machine kind of just left London, so there
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was a depleted, decreased amount of soldiers on the ground there.
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So he was sort of driving around.
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He's stolen a ten wheel US Army truck and he
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figured if he's driving one of these around, people are
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less likely to look at him because he's kind of
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hiding in playing sight. He also had stolen a second
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lieutenants uniform as well, and he had reinvented himself as
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a second lieutenant Richard John Allen, known to the girls
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as Ricky. So that's really what he was doing, and
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that's how he was sort of going around, and he
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would go to British Army camps, American Army camps and
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also fill up feel there as well, under the guise
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of this this fictional rank here he was using.
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So that's how he did it.
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And sometimes it'd even go back to his base at
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Reading to play cards with a couple of his friends,
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and then he would leave leave before the guards came
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to find him. So he was constantly going back and forth.
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That's why there's a there's a differentiation between deserting and
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being absent without leave. Deserting means you have no intention
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to return to your base, which means effectively you're completely
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over the hill, whereas absent without leave or a war
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means you you do occasionally return to your base. But
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it's a bit of a gray area because obviously you
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could argue he had deserted his unit, but legally there
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is a there is a bit of a difference there, and.
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He's obviously got coveragemary and cunning, because I mean to
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do that, I mean to be driving around in a
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ten wheel truck in you know, and then reinvent yourself
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as a as an officer. I mean that is that's
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quite And I suppose presumably he was able to dazzle
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the girls because he's an officer. He's not just an
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ordinary grunt as it were. So they're like, because they're
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they're not going to say show me your papers, are
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they They're going to say, you know, show me the
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nylons or show me the chocolate all the So he's
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obviously cutting a swathe through this one.
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But Melissa, yes, exactly, and he had already got another girlfriend.
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He had met, sixteen year old Joyce Cook. Joyce Cook
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was actually quite a sensible young woman and she took
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him home to meet her parents. So that's how respectable
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she thought he was. Brought this officer who she thought
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was twenty seven. He was also saying that he was
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older than he was, and he would actually go and
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have dinner with Joyce and her family, and then after
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dinner he'd go out to meet Betty Jones and go
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out prowl in the streets of London. Looking looking to
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commit crimes to.
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Two women on the side.
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Yeah right, okay, So what I mean this is, so
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they meet are their criminal intentions? I mean, do they
250
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recommend do they recognize that they are both, if you like,
251
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.519
of the same, of the same, you know, hewn from
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the same stone?
253
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Is it like?
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I mean, why why do.
255
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They decide to get to start start committing crimes?
256
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Is it?
257
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Is it sort of low key and then it just escalates.
258
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I mean, whats the what did you guys find out?
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Is that is the reason behind this?
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Yeah?
261
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They they were both both very restless individuals. Even as children,
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they were very restless. Carl was something of a live wire,
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and I think they there was there was an element
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of seeking danger. They were both bored in London. Betty
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at this point was out of work. Carl was having
266
00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.240
a look it was looking after motorple and obviously he
267
00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:36.840
had gone ab some without leave and there was a
268
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sort of like an unspoken rule between them when they
269
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met on that on that day in the cafe in
270
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October ninety forty four, something just passed between them and
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then they met up for a date and one of
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the one of the first things Carl said to Betty
273
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was this is a stolen uist army truck, and he
274
00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:58.879
also showed her the gun, and he did that to
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see what her reaction, and she did, indeed sort of
276
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sort of play into his hands a little bit because
277
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she then says something along the lines of I'd like
278
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to do something dangerous like fly a bomber over Germany.
279
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In his mind later on he would say something along
280
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the lines of that she had actually meant that she
281
00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.120
wanted to be a gangster's mole, so in his mind
282
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she wanted to be his sidekicker, effectively. And they started
283
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off with some a bit of robbery and they slowly
284
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started to escalate. There was a there was a tempted
285
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murder of an eighteen year old girl who they left
286
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for dead in the River Thames, and then it culminated
287
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in the fatal shooting of the taxi driver named George Heath.
288
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.480
So it was a steady sort of escalation really, and
289
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.480
they had no qualms about doing it, you know, in
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00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:51.080
blacked out London, they were just in it for the
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thrill of it.
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Really.
293
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Yeah, I mean, I suppose the thing is I mean gangster.
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You mentioned the gangster film Agangster as well. That's a
295
00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.320
big thing in the thirties. I mean there are especially
296
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:03.120
you know, obviously in Hollywood there is moral outrage with
297
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.960
some of the gangster films coming out, so therefore it
298
00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.879
is a very glamorous thing. And you know, he might say, oh,
299
00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.440
she wanted to be a gangster's mom. Well, she's a kid.
300
00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.720
I mean, she's nineteen years old, coming from sort of
301
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:16.799
a boring player. Of course, a life of crime is
302
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.000
going to see is going to look glamorous and exciting,
303
00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.759
and especially if you've got an unarmed American next to you.
304
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:27.399
Absolutely, yeah, exactly, And I think this whole glitz and
305
00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:31.000
glamor and the thing about being also he's a Chicago gunman,
306
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.480
because that was another thing. Carl was going around telling
307
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.320
people he is a Chicago gunman. And he actually threatened
308
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.159
Betty as well, allegedly that he had people watching her
309
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.279
in London as well, and sort of that would come
310
00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:45.279
out later as one of the controversies around it, or
311
00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.120
Betty would say that she had been forced into it.
312
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.279
But yeah, at the time, I think it was the
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gangster element that really hit the news headlines, and they
314
00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:55.600
really played on that and drew on the similarities with
315
00:14:55.639 --> 00:15:00.919
Bonnie Clyde to young people driving around committing crimes, some
316
00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:03.679
some flightly poor backgrounds. Also at a time of turbulence,
317
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.120
because Bonnie and Clyde were operating in depression era America
318
00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:09.360
and now you've got these two operating in sort of
319
00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.000
bombed out London during the war, so both sort of
320
00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:13.240
times of great.
321
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:17.799
Disruption presumably, I mean their spree. How long does it
322
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.200
last for? Is is it a couple of weeks? I mean?
323
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:24.039
And it ends it was actually yeah, yeah, sorry, it's
324
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.559
quite and it ends tragically in a murder. We had
325
00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:28.320
this attempted murder for an eighty and I don't we
326
00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.600
won't get into the whole details because we want people
327
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:33.159
to buy the book, but it ends in in was
328
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.000
it the Cleft Murder or.
329
00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:37.799
So's yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah.
330
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.039
The firstly, the reason it's got that name just to
331
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.279
sort of explain, this was a name given to it
332
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.519
in the press, because when they discovered Georgie's body, the
333
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.679
only thing they had to go on was this this
334
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.320
cleftion that they had all this depression. So the pathologists
335
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.320
released the forensic report, the police then released the story
336
00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.679
to the press, and they depressed went wild.
337
00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.480
With it. They started calling him the clefttion Man.
338
00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:03.279
And there are other names associated with it, like the
339
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.919
Inky Fingers murder was another one, which is quite a
340
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:06.600
colorful one.
341
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.240
That was the second one they came up with.
342
00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:13.039
That was because they posited that the victim was a
343
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:15.799
book maker and he'd been shot at his desk and
344
00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.480
he'd spilled over an inkpot and some of the ink
345
00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.440
had gone on to his fingers, so they came up
346
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.000
with these very colorful sort of monikers. It also had
347
00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:28.559
almost a gangsterish air about the title as well, because
348
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:34.000
in England at this time gun violence wasn't that really
349
00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.799
that common, and of course we had the looting of course,
350
00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:41.320
but had sort of devolved into this situation where we
351
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.879
were seeing more americanized crimes, for example, and I think
352
00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.279
George Orwell hit it on the head at the time
353
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:50.159
when he said the Hulton and Jones case was very
354
00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:54.240
much seen as the decline of the old fashioned English murder.
355
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.679
We'd gone away from the usual middle aged poisonous killing
356
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:02.480
their wives and locker roomies and porro esque filter cases.
357
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:04.359
But we've gone into this now. It's more of these
358
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:08.000
reckless crime sprees where there's no real motive behind it.
359
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.680
It's only being done for the sake of a few
360
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.759
pounds or shillings, just for the hedonistic filter.
361
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.400
It really yeah, I mean the thrill of it probably
362
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.359
most of that, And that's the thing that is shocking people,
363
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.279
rather than you know, poisoning your landlady or bumping off
364
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.599
your great uncle for money, which is a very very
365
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.279
sort of British British crime, if you like.
366
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.759
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And they got, you know,
367
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.119
it got so little out of it. As he said,
368
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:32.880
it was just a few shillings. I mean, one of
369
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.680
the more sort of cold blooded elements that actually didn't
370
00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:37.720
even even make it to the trial because they were
371
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:40.400
only prosecuting for the murder of George Heath, so they
372
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.160
didn't reveal the details of the previous assaults. But Betty
373
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.200
had actually taken this poor young woman's camel hair coat
374
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.440
and was wearing it around afterwards. And I think when
375
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.799
you talk about the thrill, I think it's an interesting
376
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.839
point to consider whether they would even have stopped if
377
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.720
they hadn't been caught, because even the day after the
378
00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.480
murder they went out again. They were looking steal a
379
00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:02.839
fur coat from a woman because Betty wanted wanted the.
380
00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:03.960
Fur coat now as well.
381
00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.400
And yeah, it's very much that they're in their own bubble.
382
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.039
They're looking to how fun. It's a thrill, it's the excitement.
383
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.640
But unlike Bonnie and Clyde, there is a trial. It
384
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.880
doesn't end in, you know, a hail of bullets somewhere
385
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.400
up the Holloway Road or whatever. So presumably that then
386
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.400
allows the press to have a field day, and for
387
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.720
you guys obviously doing the research, it allows you to
388
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.759
paint a real picture rather than just what the press
389
00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.920
were probably saying at the time. So explain it a
390
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.559
bit once again we then need to go into all
391
00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.000
the details. But this presumably was making the front pages
392
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.480
or was a murder at a time of war interesting
393
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:41.359
to the general public.
394
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:43.319
It was, Yeah, it was.
395
00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.599
It was a very very sensationist trial, and I think
396
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.599
mainly because it was a trial of first it was
397
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.920
the first time an American soldier had been tried in
398
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.119
a British corproom on the capital charge. It was also
399
00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.319
the first time a female barrister had been briefed in
400
00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.559
a murder trial, so that was another a very very
401
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.480
interesting point. First time the BBC were there. The press
402
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.920
benchers had to be enlarged as well because they were
403
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.759
pressed from Australia and America and Canada had come down
404
00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:12.960
to see the trial. So yeah, they really did have
405
00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.359
a field and I think compared to sort of other
406
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:19.680
other cases prior to Holton Jones, this one really stirred
407
00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.359
the interest because you had the international feel of it.
408
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.720
You had the British girl and the American soldier, and
409
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:29.480
it had a real very very interesting flavor, I would say, and.
410
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.960
Presumably people could bring their own prejudices to that. So
411
00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:33.359
you've got you know, I mean, it was wasn't it
412
00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.519
over sex, overpaid and never hear which was the American
413
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.400
sports told her, And so there you have this, you know,
414
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.559
this gun, this gun tooting sort of and then he
415
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:43.920
found out he's been impersonating an officer, et cetera.
416
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:44.160
Et cetera.
417
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:46.480
So he he is sort of front and center sort
418
00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:50.200
of the if you like the caricature of the American
419
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.799
GI gone bad and she can she used to can
420
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:55.559
be saying well, I was dragged along with this and
421
00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:57.759
you know I just wanted I just want to have
422
00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.920
a quiet life back in back in South Wales.
423
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:03.240
And that's what she did indeed try.
424
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:05.039
She did try to say she'd been dragged along with it,
425
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.160
but actually the public weren't buying it, and they and
426
00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:11.960
many of them were voraciously against her. I think there
427
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:14.720
wasn't a lot of evidence that she had been forced
428
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:16.960
into it. You know, a couple of witnesses like her
429
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.319
Landlady came forward and Len Bexley, the spear who introduced them,
430
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.079
to say she seemed really comfortable with him, seemed very
431
00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:26.680
fond of him. And I think it was also she
432
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:27.799
was sort of held up as a bit of a
433
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.279
symbol of that lot moral panic we talked about earlier
434
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:34.440
with the Good Time Girls, and I think maybe she
435
00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.000
was seen as sort of, you know, a cautionary tale
436
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:38.920
that this is what this is what your daughters can
437
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.119
get involved with if you're not careful. And so I
438
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:44.799
think that was because of her gender and the societal
439
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.279
values at the time. She got the rougher end of
440
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.160
it because they aired her sort of her relationships with
441
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:53.960
men in the courtroom and ask them sort of very
442
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.079
personal questions, and it felt like she was being judged
443
00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.160
on that a bit rather than just her involvement in
444
00:20:59.200 --> 00:20:59.599
the crime.
445
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:01.359
You can kind of see that coming in because of
446
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:03.160
the most of the time, and you know, women were
447
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:04.599
supposed to I mean, we were supposed to stay at
448
00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.400
home anyway. It's a bit of a shock when they're
449
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.160
having to go into armorsfactories and whatever else and help
450
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:11.119
with the were effort, you know, the weekend, you know,
451
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:13.640
women's land. I mean, that's what you should be doing.
452
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.559
You shouldn't be going enjoying yourself with with you know,
453
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.559
with with the people from the colonies or Americans, whilst
454
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.240
our brave balls, et cetera, et cetera. So you can
455
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:26.319
project that that middle class sort of wroth or you know,
456
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:28.519
this is you, this is what women shan't do. So
457
00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:30.960
she becomes if you're like a cipher for the for
458
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:33.839
the for the julious Marilla who might say of.
459
00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:39.160
The time, Yeah, I think I think that's absolutely right.
460
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.000
Yeah, and I think that's what she what sort of
461
00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.119
followed her around for quite a long time afterwards. And
462
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.680
then there was the course, there was the film that
463
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.519
was made in nineteen forty eight, Good Time Girl, which
464
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:51.839
the producer did actually say was meant to the cautionary
465
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:55.480
tale it was. It was criticized from many quarters because
466
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:58.759
of being sordid and depicting, depicting where she'd been at
467
00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:01.039
an approved school as a teenage, which used to be
468
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:04.759
so known as a reform school, law industrial school. And
469
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.599
this film showed scenes of rioting and girls smoking and
470
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:08.279
things like that.
471
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:09.400
It was actually only.
472
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.000
Loosely based on her in her life, but you know,
473
00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.640
that's what added to it. And then in nineteen ninety
474
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.680
there was another film made ch Cargo, Joe and the Showgirl,
475
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:22.079
starring KEITHA. Sutherland and Emily Lloyd, and that perpetuated this
476
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.240
myth that Betty was actually the leading force and was
477
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:26.559
the manipulator behind it.
478
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:27.039
Yeah.
479
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:32.319
Keith of Sudden played the role of Carl Holton, remember.
480
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.480
The film, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and it
481
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.240
was you know, he portrayed the role in a very
482
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.319
demure way, whereas Emily Lloyd's Betty was much more of
483
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.559
the driving force, much more brasher and bolder, and very
484
00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.319
much the one trying to sort of bully him into
485
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.279
doing this these sorts of crimes. But in reality it
486
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.240
was actually the other way around. It was nothing like
487
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.799
that really, and Carl was very much you know, you
488
00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.279
knew what he was doing, of course, So yeah, sort
489
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.559
of this sort of label sort of unfortunately followed her
490
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.359
around a bit. And you know, the truth is very
491
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:09.599
different actually because obviously she was she was actually reprieved
492
00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:12.079
from the gallows with just thirty three hours to spare
493
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.720
by home secretary. So from up until that point, she
494
00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:17.880
thought she was going to be hanged, and she was
495
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.160
reprieved at the very last minute. And she then spent
496
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.000
the rest of the next nine years in prison, and
497
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:26.599
then it was all case of just coming out of
498
00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:29.519
prison and trying to rebuild her life, which amazingly she
499
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:32.200
did despite what prison psychologists said.
500
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.200
Well, you see, the interesting thing is that you've tracked
501
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.599
this tale beyond because it would have been you know,
502
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.559
you could have said so and so, this happened to
503
00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:41.160
so and so, you know, and Betty did nine years
504
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.240
and that's it. But you actually were able to follow
505
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:44.720
that up, which I think is really interesting because we
506
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.759
tend to you know, in the movie, you would have
507
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.960
the you know Betty lived at you know, you haven't
508
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.440
put a full stop at that point. So how do
509
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.039
you how did you get because I would imagine she'd
510
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.960
want to be sort of sort of very very low
511
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.119
key indeed, So how do you sort of find that
512
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:02.839
information prash because obviously.
513
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.960
Yeah, a lot of it is a lot of hard grafting,
514
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.279
and a lot of hunters usually are the key to this. Really,
515
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.759
I've had experience of tracking people down in the past,
516
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.960
and I do genealogy, so it's it's really my forte
517
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.079
and I found that, you know, because we were fortunate
518
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.960
enough to have obtained about two thousand pages of records,
519
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.960
prison records, personal letters and stuff like that. I worked
520
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.519
out from there that she had actually come out of
521
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.880
prison try to redeem herself. She'd worked as a nurse
522
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.119
for the letter Cheshire Homes came for disabled people, and
523
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.400
after that she had she had gone on. She'd got
524
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.200
married as well, and she had changed her name. Actually,
525
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.440
she changed her name immediately after coming out of prison
526
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:49.240
to Elizabeth Temple, and she had she had she had
527
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:51.640
a husband who was a Cambridge graduate, she had two children,
528
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:54.559
and after that she just fell off, fell off the
529
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.039
radar completely, and I was trying to work out what
530
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:59.599
had happened. So I went back the old records, looked
531
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.960
at the at the marriage certificate and found her husband
532
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.559
had been was a mathematician. And my next step was
533
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.759
really more of a hunch. I thought, what's the next
534
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.119
thing up at this time, this period of time were
535
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.759
normally people with the computer ages is dawning. Obviously, you know,
536
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.759
IBM is very much a new thing, and I followed
537
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.440
that line of thinking, and then I found myself when
538
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:26.039
I've exhausted the UK completely, I found myself looking further afield. Well,
539
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.759
I knew she loved the American culture, and it was
540
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.559
from there I was able to establish she had emigrated
541
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.880
with her family American in the nineteen eighties and more things,
542
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.720
you know, contacted records institutions in America managed to find
543
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:44.640
out when she passed away. But most importantly the watershed
544
00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.440
moment was when we found out she had a surviving daughter.
545
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.000
So we reached out to her and we established a
546
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.920
dialogue and for the first time we were able to
547
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:57.920
reveal Betty's life, you know, with a family after prison,
548
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:02.359
life in America, and also having that dialogue with her
549
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:05.880
daughter as well was absolutely Craig bores and it we found.
550
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:08.440
Out to know about the background of this, I mean,
551
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.759
presuming you would get that a bit, yeah, exactly, I
552
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:14.920
mean found the daughter. But on the side, on the
553
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.279
other side, this is not the sort of thing that
554
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:19.640
she perhaps wants to bring out a boy the Thanksgiving dinners,
555
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:20.240
for example.
556
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:25.200
No, the family always perpetuated the belief that she'd been
557
00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:28.599
treated unfairly in jail and that it had been all
558
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:31.519
just an accident, you know, the fact that she'd been
559
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.200
involved in this. I think they very much ran with it.
560
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.279
I believe they did it to protect their children. I
561
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:42.000
don't think they wanted to keep bringing this up. But
562
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.960
Patricia is that's what we call her in the book,
563
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.920
because she she wanted to protect her identity, because she
564
00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.279
of her because of her reputation. She lives in California today.
565
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:56.640
She she wanted to know more and I think for her,
566
00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:58.279
she told us, one of the things that will come
567
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.759
out of this this book is for her personal healing,
568
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.279
because she wanted to know what her mother was like
569
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:08.839
before she got married. You know, what the crimes actually entailed,
570
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.480
what she was like as a child. So we were
571
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:12.559
able to fill in a lot of those blanks, and
572
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.839
in return, she gave us some information in return about
573
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:16.799
her mother later.
574
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:19.200
On, and it was it was really caught, very rewarding
575
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:20.160
and all that.
576
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:22.119
Yeah, Militia, it must be wonderful to write about when
577
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:24.680
you've actually got okay, you haven't got first person, but
578
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.799
you've got near as near as damn at first person
579
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:28.720
because you've got the daughter there. So when you're writing it,
580
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.079
you kind of feel that you're writing it for them
581
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.359
rather than if you're like at them.
582
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.200
Yeah. Absolutely, it was really emotional actually doing that and
583
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:40.880
sort of knowing that these these relatives might actually be
584
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:44.400
reading it, and in fact something else, you know, quite
585
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:45.240
incredible happened.
586
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:46.359
We were really fortunate.
587
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.240
This is like a researcher's dream. We were contacted by
588
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:53.599
June Holton, the surviving daughter of Carl Holton, who had
589
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:55.880
been born just a week or so before he had
590
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:59.039
been sent to England with the army, and she had
591
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:02.000
actually found and found our website basically and knew we
592
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.240
were writing a book and got in touch herself kind
593
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.839
of proactively and said and said she was happy to
594
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:09.119
talk to us about her life as well, And so
595
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:11.160
that was wonderful because we could bring it full circle
596
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.880
and she's now in her eighties and we were able
597
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.400
to find out, you know, what a terrible experience it
598
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.839
had been for the family when Carl was hanged. June
599
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:22.960
had always believed he just died in the war. It
600
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:24.880
wasn't until she was in her twenties she sort of
601
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.559
found out the truth. But even now, sort of in
602
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.519
our eighties, she was still sort of thinking there were
603
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.880
some unanswered questions. And again for her, I think it
604
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.559
was really interesting to learn more about his early life
605
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.720
because of course her mother. Her mother didn't talk about
606
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.599
it at all, understandably.
607
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.680
Absolutely, I mean, the great thing about this book is
608
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.079
it is not only the drama of the crimes, but
609
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.160
also it's a time and a place and you bring
610
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.920
it through to the present day, which is which is
611
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.440
a rare, a rare trick. Indeed, I could talk about
612
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.039
it for a very long time, but unfortunately I'm about
613
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:54.599
to have run out of time. The book is called
614
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.759
Wartime London's Bonnie and Clyde. What are you hoping that
615
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.240
people are going to take from that pressure? You go
616
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:01.400
first in myas, So, what do you think that the
617
00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:04.680
people will, Oh, yeah, we'll learn from the book.
618
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:09.759
I think it's that these two protagonists have had a
619
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:12.119
backstory before they got to the point where they met,
620
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:14.119
and I think it's interesting to see how this all
621
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.920
unfolds amidst the war as well, and hearing also about
622
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.519
the victims as well about their stories as well. I
623
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.119
think is very very important because I think the human
624
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:29.039
side of things is a paramount importance really, and also
625
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.799
I think that there's.
626
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.440
The redemption arc, isn't there as well.
627
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:37.359
Of and correcting some inaccurate information that's been out there
628
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:39.519
in the past really about her. I mean, there was
629
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.160
one rumor had it that she had died in the
630
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.200
early nineteen eighties in poverty.
631
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.119
Obviously in the book, this is not true.
632
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.119
Let's say you're you're What would you like to people
633
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:49.599
to take from the book?
634
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.480
Yeah? Absolutely, It's very much about it being a human
635
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.960
story and that even somebody who gets involved in crimes
636
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:58.599
like this they can change, but also that it's not
637
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.000
just a crime in the content in itself, there's so
638
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:02.880
much context around it and other people.
639
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.039
The book is Wartime Britain's Bonnie and Wartime London's Bonnie
640
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:09.240
and Clyde. You can audit via our own virtual bookstore.
641
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.119
Where can people find you guys online? As you said,
642
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:11.720
there's a website.
643
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:12.119
Where is it?
644
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:12.440
Please?
645
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:14.279
Yeah, sure, it's that.
646
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:18.720
My website is Prashgannondran dot com. I'm also on YouTube
647
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.200
and other Facebook, Twitter, that sort of thing.
648
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.079
The book is called Wartime London's Bonny and Clyde. It's
649
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.000
by Prash and Melissa Ganon Dan, thank you so much
650
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.119
for your time today, guys,