speaker-1: Hello and welcome to Plugging Away, Decommissioning Conversations brought to you by Coda, the centre of Decommissioning Australia. I'm Francis Norman, CEO here at Coda, and in each episode we speak with people from across the industry about the challenges, opportunities and ideas shaping the future of decommissioning. If you'd like to get in touch with today's guests, we've included contact details in the episode description. With that, let's get into today's episode. I'm delighted today to welcome Dawn Robertson from Bureau Veritas. Hello Dawn.
speaker-0: Thank you. you. Pleasure to be here.
speaker-1: Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit for the many people who are listening who maybe don't know you?
speaker-0: Who don't know me? Yeah, of course. So yeah, you say, Dawn Robertson. I'm the Global Director for Oil and Gas with Bureau Veritas. I specialize currently really in CAPEX projects. So right at the start of a project's life and working across the BV network for people who don't know Bureau Veritas, we're very much a global organization. We've got 82,000 people. We've got probably five and a half thousand of them are very much dedicated to oil and gas projects. So I work with them to almost that very start of a project's life, know, they kind of, you know, working with the operator, trying to identify the challenges of the actual project itself. But then I also obviously deal with decommissioning. I've been in the decommissioning ⁓ sector really for my whole duration with ⁓ Bura Veritas, which is just over 11 years now. Time flies when you're having fun. ⁓ And within that, then I was responsible for actually putting together our global decommissioning strategy. When I joined Bura Veritas ⁓ in 2015, in the massive downturn, what I was employed to sell and take to market, nobody really was interested in the North Sea because I was based in Aberdeen. Because everybody was talking about decommissioning because the barrel price was so low at the time. And when I was then asking, you know, what do we do in decom? And at that point at a local level, was nothing. But actually when I then reached into the global network and we also grow, you know, organically, but we also grow through acquisitions. We actually had a lot of decommissioning experience across the network and we'd actually been delivering. services into decommissioning projects since the early 90s. So once I actually pulled together all the various people and individuals and worked out where our expertise was, then actually back sort of 2015, 2016, then put that together as an offering and then have been in that decommissioning space ever since. So yeah, I kind of say to people that I'm always dealing with capex and then decom, so it's almost, you know, they're kind of christening and funeral. I get both ends. Get both ends of the stickle.
speaker-1: And unlike many of the guests that we've had on here, you are neither a scientist nor an engineer, is that right?
speaker-0: That is right. Which some people do think that I am an engineer, but I think I've just spent so much of my life with engineers and technical people and trying to, I suppose the bit that I've always done is take that real technical element, understand what they're doing, but then also trying to distill it so that anybody can understand and appreciate what they're trying to communicate. So I've probably made a career of bridging that kind of gap. ⁓ So I know as somebody says, you know enough to be dangerous, you know from an engineering context, you know what mean? But at the same time, my heritage is very much commercial. you know, like ⁓ from a degree perspective was business studies. went back 10 years later and did my MBA. So yeah, it's very much on the commercial side of things, my pay degree.
speaker-1: Yeah. So you do look at the industry through a different lens from a lot of the other people that, you know, that we would normally deal with. Most of the people we deal with are, they're engineers or they are technical, very technical based, you know, looking at the tooling, looking at how do you cook this? How do you pick this up? What do do with it? Or they're the scientists looking at the environmental impact or, or how do you decontaminate things? So coming at it from a, from a commercial. through a commercial, seeing the industry through a commercial lens is actually a really, it's a really different, really interesting way, I guess, for us to engage on all of this. So yeah, you got to about 2015 or 2016 in terms of the journey, your journey in with BV. And then I guess the downturn stopped. Different places around the world, I guess it stopped at different times, but things then picked up and you sort of imagine so more activity in the space.
speaker-0: Yeah, well, war activity in the space. suppose we were, you I was champion and, know, specifically then around, you know, from a decommission, just talking about decommissioning, but I was then really championing that as well. You know, once we've, it's like, you know, we've got this whole offering and actually here's all the references and things that we've done in the past. And it was brilliant actually to bring all of that together. ⁓ And then also prior to me joining the business a few years before, ⁓ somebody had actually put together a document that was a guide to the regulations for decommissioning. And I'd had some feedback from what was Decomed or See at the time to say, look, this is a brilliant document. It was the first time I'd actually seen it. So then I threw myself into all the regulations and then said, we should do an update on all of this. So we did and got the right people together to then do a full refresh of it all and publish that. So it was just a really interesting... time and a journey. then as that's all matured, then it's evolved as the markets matured ⁓ and in the different geographies as well. like I was saying to my boss just yesterday, I could be completely 100 % decommissioning at the moment. But the capex part of our business that I cover is the lion's shater for sure. But actually just the amount of activity in decommissioning currently is huge. There's a big marked difference in it. And what I find is that certain geographies, need more of that handholding and some of the operators as well, you know, because they're sometimes being presented with a lot of this for the first time or, you know, they're very early on in their own decommissioning journey. So they want support, they want guidance, they want that kind of international view, you know, to try and understand, you know, how do other countries deal with this, you know, what's my competitors and my peers actually doing. So it's, I thoroughly enjoy it. I think we've got quite a privileged position because you get quite a holistic view on all of this. So as you say, know, I look at it, suppose, as kind of from a market perspective, but I really get involved from a people element. know, throughout my whole career has been matching sort of business challenges with people's expertise and trying to put the right people together to have the right conversation. So we do that technically, but then also when you're saying like cutting tools and things, you know, we might be looking at it from best available technology, we might be helping them from a certification perspective, right through to then the actual full scale project and the decommissioning itself. So you deal with everybody across the supply chain as well as the regulators.
speaker-1: Yeah. So if you were to try and distill Bureau Veritas' offering in the decommissioning space into, don't know, a couple of sentences or something like that, yeah. How would, how would you, yeah, I'm going to get it right down to one word if I keep going with this. You know, or a couple of paragraphs or, know, or five minutes of monologue. How would you, how would you really sort of frame it down to say, this is, this is what we do. ⁓ In terms of that space and just again for people that maybe aren't as familiar with the work that the business does.
speaker-0: Yeah, because I think Bureau Veritas is quite unique because we cover so many different aspects. if you've engaged with Bureau Veritas, then you start to see this sort of Pandora's box that opens up of all these different things that they can do. And then others will never potentially have engaged with us at all, you know. So I think we, in the DCOM space, definitely that technical consultancy, we support from ⁓ navigating the regulations. and the regulatory support and guidance that the clients then require. ⁓ We help them manage their risk across the project. ⁓ We're also looking at, you know, we sometimes are also like site rep. So we've got like some large contracts just now where it's almost a kind of QEQC type function that we're doing, where we're then being the eyes and ears of the operator or supporting then the EPRD contractor. And then anything to do with, you from an environmental perspective, so environmental impact assessments, looking at waste disposal and ship recycling facility plans, so working with ports and then all the marine side of things as well for then offshore assets. So Marine Assurance, Marine Warranty Services is another area that we cover.
speaker-1: Yeah, two very long sentences. Well done. Thank you.
speaker-0: You tempted me.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, I wasn't counting at all. No, no, no, I wasn't counting at all. So you mentioned earlier, your role gives you, you you've got a global role you get to see. You get, I guess you get to look over the fence into all these different jurisdictions, all on different points on their decommissioning journey. ⁓ How do you see things at the moment? What's your, what's the dawn's eye view of where things are at?
speaker-0: With Domensai View. I might market that. Yeah. The Domensai View. Well, suppose just, I think just recently, you know, I was in Thailand for GAS Tech. There's a lot currently going on. I had a call this morning ⁓ with Vietnam regarding opportunities. There's ongoing peace in Brunei ⁓ and there's a SPE event there at the start of December, which we're working with them on. And then Brazil. I've just been there recently as well. even just that, like in the last six weeks, four weeks even, maybe, honestly, it's, I think in that Southeast Asia perspective, there's more and more activity. It definitely offers a long term scope. There's a huge portfolio of aging assets. And I think they're a point, they're all slightly different as far as their... ⁓ I suppose, execution and commitment to actually delivering on the decomm side. So each country's maybe got a slightly different view on the timing of when that's going to happen. But as far as is the volume of infrastructure there to actually support a very buoyant market, then absolutely. I think what's interesting as well is that with some of the conversations that we have, there's in the past a lot was very much about the execution of decommissioning. you know, and that physical removal and the engineering aspects and everything of it. I think what I see now, you know, ⁓ globally, ⁓ is a bigger push towards actually the financial part and then the re-use repurposing, et cetera, side of things. ⁓ I think on the financial side, you know, they're really understanding, you know, what are the liabilities and governments getting more and more interested. and actually like what does this liability actually look like and are the actual arrow numbers correct? You know, and I've spent some time recently in this year more and more so with actually that sort of financial insurance and kind of C-sweep about board and director ⁓ group of people and their interest isn't about the... the fancy cutting tool and all the rest of it, know, we're chasing, know, and going, ⁓ wow, look at that, you know. You know, they want to know about the numbers. They want to know, well, is this number correct? And if it's not correct, then what should it be? But then they also need in their kind of wheelhouse, what questions should I be asking as you know, ⁓ a director on the board to challenge me with what operations are doing? Because it's something that's maybe happening for the first time.
speaker-1: No, very different.
speaker-0: So there's that gap. And I think that's been really quite interesting recently, know, spending more more time with that sort of community. And the repurposing and reuse side, it's been something that's been talked about for years and years and years. know, I've sat in many a workshop looking at it over the years. But I think now it does feel that there's starting to, you know, change towards that. In some ways it's like it's... There's examples, but they're sort of sporadic. And it's trying to bring a lot of that sort of information together. Because when you do talk to people and actually share the stories of examples that you're aware of, they come alive, you know, because they haven't got those reference points because they're not in that unity full time. ⁓ And I see that as actually being quite interesting because there is, you know, nobody doesn't want to do almost like reused repurposing. It's like there's a whole willingness. You know, you know, not just about from a sustainability perspective and potentially the right thing to do, but actually there's financial implications and positive outcomes that can come from it as well, but beyond that. So there's a real want to understand. And I think there's a willing in the industry and it feels like they're coming together in a bit more pace now. Again, certain jurisdictions in certain countries are more focused on it than others. And there's more regulatory focus again in certain areas to demonstrate that you're considering it. actually, I think the bit for me that I get on my high horse a little bit about is that broader value piece. And I don't think they always think of the bigger picture. It can just be almost reusing something and then, what would the equivalent be of having that if we bought it brand new? And it's so linear sometimes, the thinking. ⁓ But then when you actually get out into the community and get more stories that are actually shared of where things have happened, that's a bit more blue sky thinking. It's really inspiring. And I think as a global community, we need to share more of that so that there's more examples and it just becomes a good, know, longer term.
speaker-1: Yeah. It sounds like you've found your tribe in terms of talking about the financial side, talking about the risks, talking about all the other things, getting away from the, look at that cool widget over there. really does. It sounds so much like you've found your tribe, or maybe they've found you, me or the other. what you're describing there is something I would agree completely in terms of what I'm seeing now as well when you talk to the The maturing jurisdictions, particularly, they are now seeing what this work actually costs as opposed to what they've been told it was going to cost. ⁓ The two numbers can be significantly different. The optimism bias around the first cut estimate is a number. And then, as you say, at the board level, these numbers are becoming significant enough to make it to the board for a lot of these businesses. And this probably seeing that flow through from their director peers in other organizations who are saying, hey, if you see what's going on over here, don't trust your numbers, understand what the numbers are, see where they're coming from. Is there a way you can minimize some of that spend as well along the way? It's so interesting that that's the trend, if you like, that you're seeing now.
speaker-0: And I think it is a part of that, that the numbers are so huge. And from a directorship perspective, know, one of your main roles is obviously the financial security of the organization. So to then almost have a number double or 50 % more. it's like, where did that come from? know, because actually your obligation and your responsibility is that there shouldn't be these sort of surprises. So there's more and more focus, I think. on that because there is this unfortunate sort of trend that actually the numbers that are presented versus actually what reality looks like can be significantly different.
speaker-1: Yeah. And a harder sell to the board, I imagine, compared to the cost of building a new facility going up, because you can always say, well, we'll make it on the back end. We'll recover that money through production. We'll recover that money through facility optimization, through the value of our product. Decommissioning, there isn't that, that opportunity isn't there. This is, this is money that you've hopefully saved up or it's drawing out of your revenue. And when it's spent, there's no, there's no recovery on it. It's gone.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's the thing as well, is thinking about the asset residual value. That's key part, you know, all of that cost. Well, what is there as residual value? You know, what could either the assets next life be or portions of the assets next life? And then how do you... And I think there's a piece around that communication element of how you communicate these things to the board. And when you're in that financial community, you know, and you've just got this, you know, the... cost of the asset just getting depreciated over time and the cost of decommissioning that actually as things change, know, and identifying, right, actually we're now going to extend the life of that asset. Well, how you report that and how you communicate it then, well, if you didn't extend it and okay, it costs to extend its life, but then how do you report that? You know, how do you take that off the cost of decommissioning? Because actually there's something that wasn't originally scheduled. there's, you know, it's It's a ways of accounting for this, but then actually it's how the business is then managed. ⁓ And then actually if it has got a new purpose, a new life, you whether that's been sold, whether it's the whole asset being reused, whether it's elements of it being repurposed, then what's that value? And can you then show that that's actually, you know, reducing the cost of decommissioning? Because actually you're offsetting the end value of it. And there's a piece there with CCS, for example. We talk about the opportunities for repurposing pipelines then for CCS projects. But when CCUS really kicks in, and we're anticipating that there will be a utilisation piece longer term as well of what that commercial model will look like, then you can really, depending on what it looks like, the cost of decommissioning could vanish. That's actually a whole new revenue stream for the business. So it's trying to change some of that thinking, but also what I think is then having that financial community more involved in a lot of this, because actually it sits on a P &L as a cost, gets to whatever that juncture is that it's now seen that it has to move into decommissioning, and then it moves over into the team to then do it, you know, as opposed to that, to really, you know, best managed throughout its life, throughout the business, you know, and the different ⁓ different stakeholders within the organisation ⁓ contributing to that.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And think sometimes the value something for me that that gets people's, you you hear it time and time again, follow the money, you know, so where is the money? So if there is still then perceived money at the end, then it gets attention. From the board, from the lunch, you know, from C-suite. So I think as a community, as a decommissioning community, we need to shift some of that language as well to then get. And I do see a change in earlier engagement for planning, decommissioning and things. That's definitely changing. Changing slowly is probably ⁓ more realistic. But actually, if we really try and shift that value piece, then potentially it could have more interest right at the start of an asset's life, because you're trying to protect what your potential value is at the end.
speaker-1: and your exposure and your risk and at the governmental level as well. I think you mentioned earlier that governments, we're certainly finding here in Australia and I'm sure in other places around the world as well, governments are developing a very deep interest in decommissioning when they are on the hook for a portion of that cost, whatever that proportion is going to be in different places around the world.
speaker-0: Totally, and then actually when I was in Brazil, I was out on operators and it was a CAPEX discussion about a new pipeline. And one of the guys had seen then on my business card, you know, that said CAPEX and decommissioning. So he then brought up, you know, well, what's the decommissioning bit and wanted to know. So I just gave him a long two sentence piece about what we do. ⁓ And he then said to me, know, well, Maybe if you've got a subject matter expert that could support me in identifying the best design and materials then for this new pipeline so that we can work on the basis that longer term its potential to be repurposed for CCS is higher. I was just like, at last, last designing with not just decommending, but designing for repurposing. Honestly, I about looped over the boardroom table to hug the guy, you know what Finally! Finally! You know, so, and that's just an example, you know, I mean, there's a whole world out there that we need to try and convert, never mind, hopefully through the breadth of the reach of this podcast, that'll help.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And whatever comes off the back end of it. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's absolutely fascinating. So are you, are you seeing particular sort of hotspots around the world? know, particularly since we, since we set this recording up, I've watched you bounce all over the planet. So, you know, it's the, you, are you seeing any particular areas that you're thinking, ⁓ that's really interesting. Brazil. mean, Brazil for me is a fascinating market. what's going on there, the scale and the challenges that they've got there. I see them often as the closest analog to what we're dealing with here in Australia, except they've got more similar, similar distance and everything else.
speaker-0: You know, as you'd expect, obviously, activity wise, know, North Sea, Australia, you're better versed than me. Brazil, I think, I agree, you know, I find it fascinating out there. ⁓ The sheer volume, but also the appetite. And already they're doing things slightly different. The country has got challenges, it has got parts of the ⁓ sort of full decommissioning, you know, end to end. There's elements that are missing at the moment, but it's nothing that can't be supported by partners internationally then coming into the market. And there's a lot of appetite to do that and there's actual projects to do that at the moment, which we're also involved in trying to create that whole ecosystem then actually in Brazil. Because what I find brilliant with them is that not only have they got such volume of decommissioning now and in the next five years, but then actually the next sort of 20 years of decombat at the same time there's a huge capex market there you know we are supporting brand new projects to go in so life cycle of decommissioning is going to continue for Brazil you know it's it's really interesting whereas there's parts of the planet which will remain nameless you know where there's a lot of decommissioning but there's not so much capex going on ⁓ so that market is only just going to deal with the decommissioning and then it will change to new energy sources and it will change forevermore.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I got to say, I love dealing with the folks from Brazil. They, appetite, the enthusiasm and the passion and everything that they bring. And one of the, one of the best earlier podcasts that we did was with Valverde from ⁓ Petrobras. Absolutely fascinating conversation that we had with them. And yeah, you're right that they're not just, they're not just decommissioning. They're building as much as they take account. And, and, and they're building for 20, 30, 40 years of production from those new ones. So they're going to be decommissioning for generations yet and they will build the solutions.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's interesting, know, when we've talked before and been on panels and things around careers and decommissioning and stuff like that, there's a place that you can, not only it could be your career, but actually, there's generations potentially that could be specialists in that area.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. So we talked before we started this about sort of side gigs and other things as well. know, you're more than just Dawn the, Dawn the, a very task person, aren't you? You've got, you've got, you've got multiple activities going on in the background. Do you want to spend a couple of minutes just filling in some of the gaps on the, on the paint by numbers picture there?
speaker-0: So I suppose, yeah, so I think you'd referred it into notes as a side hustle, but it probably started as a side hustle. It's very much a business in its own right now. ⁓ But yeah, think, you know, back to where my earlier point was, suppose, business challenges with people's expertise. And I found myself in the same situation where when my son started school, I suppose I foolishly thought that then would be vapour in childcare would then come with that. And then very quickly as a full-time working mum found that your childcare provision went from 10 hours to six and that included you doing all the drop-off. You're like, this doesn't work. This does not work. And at the time his school actually had a huge waiting list potentially and actually spoke to the headmistress about it and they were saying four to five years until it cleared. And I will, can't continue to do what we did, know, primary one was just, it was a wee shame, you know, every day it's like that, where am I going today? Where am I going today? And actually the, by the time we got to the, the summer of him going then and to B2, I just decided to actually, how difficult could it be to set up your own childcare business and to provide that wraparound care? Cause everybody I spoke to, We're in similar situations unless they had grandparents that lived around the corner or something. And living in Aberdeen, there's a lot of people have come to Aberdeen for work. They haven't brought all of their entire family tree with them. They've come on their own as a family. So yeah, so basically started up a wraparound childcare business to serve my own needs, but potentially supports others as well. So we started off with... 20 children. ⁓ And then, and also made the parents volunteer, which was actually more difficult to manage than the actual kids themselves. ⁓ Of how you'll get the parents to do their volunteering stint. ⁓ But it was, it's been such a journey. And actually from there, there was an opportunity also presented itself where local council decided to stop providing wraparound care. As you can imagine, there was a huge, huge cry. across the community from thousands of parents saying, well, what do we do now? And because of the model that we had, we then worked with the council and with the ⁓ regulator to actually put in place then wraparound childcare in other areas. So now we've got probably nearly 250 children, ⁓ which is a lot, you know, but now we've got managers in each of the locations that then manage this. We've just gone into our fourth academic year with the children. And it's great. It's great to see, you know, we've got over 30 part-time staff. It's been a really rewarding journey actually, you know, bringing these people into the workplace. Some who have taken time out to have raised their own family and wondering how do you get back into the workplace? And we've got, you know, Duke of Edinburgh. kids and teenagers that can't get volunteering jobs. You know, they just won't give them a chance. So they come and volunteer with us. And then some of them we've given jobs as well. And it's just grown arms and legs actually over the last couple of years. now we've got holiday camps and everything else. So it's been an amazing journey and it can make for quite a varied day from, you know, dealing with multi-million. Pound contracts to then get in a WhatsApp about is Jessica allergic to chocolate or does she just not like bourbon biscuits. know, you have the whole plethora of a day in the life of Dawn sometimes. But it's great. It's great. It's certainly something that's become much more than I ever thought it was. I thought I was just solving a problem for myself and now actually it's become a huge community thing, which is excellent.
speaker-1: It goes back to that personal drive to solve problems, doesn't it? Rather than just sit there, because you could just easily sit there and say, yeah, I am experiencing this problem, but it's someone else's job to fix it for me. Instead of which you've said, I am experiencing this and if I don't fix it, then maybe no one will. And you fixed it for yourself and for 250 other children.
speaker-0: Yeah, the North East of Scotland. Yeah, and the thing now is, know, it's a working model, it works exceptionally well, know, we're less and less involved, you know, as it's growing actually, because you physically can't do it, you know, so there's managers in place, we've got administrators. ⁓ But it's actually a point now that you can franchise it because there's such a need for wraparound care and quite often people have either got a real interest in care ⁓ But then I'm quite scared about the business side of things. Or they might know the regulation side of it, but then they actually don't want to have a business and they don't want to work there. So their personal drivers sometimes don't match to maybe actually set something like this up. And again, I think just because you do business, can pack all that, you know? So yeah, that's the next step.
speaker-1: Yeah, this is... Another bullfight. I know. We've got our women in decommissioning special interest group. Maybe we should have a childcare in decommissioning special interest group or something we should establish.
speaker-0: The settling on glee. Yes.
speaker-1: Yes, for families to survive in the modern world where typically both parents, if there are both parents or one parent, if it's a single parent, they have to get out, they have to do the work, but the children have to be taken care of as well. It just gets harder and harder.
speaker-0: It does, it gets really difficult and then I think, you know, quite often as well. Unfortunately, you know, quite often that sort of caring role and responsibility quite often lands on the female as well. And I talked to so many mums and parents and also either who are wanting to use our services or just general discussion in the playground, or it can be people who are then applying for jobs. And it's challenging. There's lots of challenges for them, but there's a... but they also want to contribute. So one of the things that had come out in our first year actually, interviewing a lady who was going to be perfect, but it turned out she was a single parent and she just started asking so many very specific questions about the pay and she didn't seem, I don't know, it just didn't match with her kind of personality. So I was a like, what's behind this? All these questions. And she was just really trying to understand how much she would definitely get. because she would have to pay for childcare for her daughter while she was then working for us. And I was like, is this such a challenge? Just bring her. So how much will that cost? Will it cost you? know, like, what's it going to cost me? know, a snack and a drink of juice. Just bring it. And she continues having fun with her friends. You earn money. Jobs are good. You know, what's the issue? And she was just like, I can't believe it. And then very quickly, like, This just makes sense. So now, if a parent is working for us, they get a child's place for free. It helps them out as well, which is great.
speaker-1: that you can do. whole pile of the service. Yeah. That's absolutely wonderful. Yeah. So to come back to the decommissioning world for a couple of minutes before we, before we wrap things up, when you look, know, having seen everything that's going on and seeing where the trends are and everything else, what do you think are the opportunities to really make things better for decommissioning around the world?
speaker-0: ⁓ I think the ongoing bit around earlier engagement, to the point of designing for decommissioning or designing for repurposing, might be even more appropriate now. I think the earlier that it can be on the table, the better, so that it's properly managed from both the actual execution of delivering decommissioning, but as I mentioned earlier, the financial part of it. I think there being more open knowledge about actually the costs that are potentially ⁓ applied with that, but equally what the potential residual value could be from the asset. And I think longer term as well, that people thinking, you know, that this is something that actually on how they account for that residual value, that that can be assessed, you know, every time maybe there's a new methodology about how to decommission that would reduce the cost or a new technology comes online or utilization from CCS, all of these things will change that. And then it changes the drive down, the cost of decommissioning that we too often hear to actually it's a much more thing about how it's being managed. You know, it's not just about driving down the cost at all cost. Actually, it's, you know, it's been much more ⁓ thoughtful and purposeful about that as early on as possible. And I think also, you know, having that financial community really involved in it. will help. And that whole repurposing side of things, know, the repurposing, reuse, we've talked about it for a very long time. And there's lots of great examples now around the world. And also not just from an oil and gas context, but actually thinking about like mining and stuff too, like actually bring these communities together to share, you know, what's actually been able to happen, not just from an environment. engineering context but from an environmental impact and also the societal piece, which is huge as well in the mining side of things. So I think that broad, as early as possible kind of engagement, that repurposing piece and then certainly the financial discussions, being very open and honest and putting the right number down. As best knowledge possible actually. really think about what is that number going to look like and how do we actually manage that as an organisation ⁓ and as governments, for example, if they haven't effuced a portion of that bill as well, so that there's transparency.
speaker-1: And more honesty and honesty is probably not the right word for this, but more clarity around the actual turnout cost will influence the decisions that get made in terms of what you're actually going to do with the decommissioning. If you think you can do your project for a hundred million pounds, for instance, and and, in your mind, you know, it's probably going to be near a 300 million. That makes a material difference to how you would frame up, plan, execute. option here and everything else, the work that you're going to do, because they are quantum different numbers to the balance sheet for an organization. And having those conversations before you commit to what you're actually, how are you going to do the work to think things off all these things through is, you know, it's a really interesting lens to put on that. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So last couple of minutes, anything else you would like to add to all of that? you've had burning away as another side hustle you've got on the cards that you want to talk about or anything like that?
speaker-0: can't think of anything from that point of view. ⁓ But no, I think in summary, there's so much scope out there ⁓ in decommissioning and I think there's real opportunity for sure. It's an exciting industry. And as I've been, as you mentioned, of hopscotching around the globe ⁓ over the last few months. It just makes it even more and more apparent because the more conversations that you have, then it just keeps evolving into more and more deeper conversations and more challenges that are being presented to me and to the business as to what can you do to try and help us and help us solve this going forward. So it's a very, very interesting thing.
speaker-1: Really is. Good time to be alive in decommissioning. Wonderful. Look, thank you so, so, so much for this, Dawn. It's been absolutely brilliant ⁓ to catch up with you and have this conversation. ⁓ I'm sure if anyone wants to find you, you are not hard to track down, are you? mean, except they may have to hang out in an airport to find you rather than actually find you on the ground somewhere, but you know.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn, that's for sure. Where I am might be another question.
speaker-1: You are available though, available for consultation and childcare purposes if needed. Wonderful. Look, thank you again. Thank you so much for this. And yeah, we'll speak again soon. Thank you.
speaker-0: Thanks, Frances.
speaker-1: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Plugging Away. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. you'd like to learn more about Coda and what we do, please visit our website at decommissioning.org.au. Or if you'd like to reach out to me or any of our team, please drop us an email at contact at decommissioning.org.au. Thanks again for tuning in. Until next time.
speaker-0: Thank you. you. Pleasure to be here.
speaker-1: Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit for the many people who are listening who maybe don't know you?
speaker-0: Who don't know me? Yeah, of course. So yeah, you say, Dawn Robertson. I'm the Global Director for Oil and Gas with Bureau Veritas. I specialize currently really in CAPEX projects. So right at the start of a project's life and working across the BV network for people who don't know Bureau Veritas, we're very much a global organization. We've got 82,000 people. We've got probably five and a half thousand of them are very much dedicated to oil and gas projects. So I work with them to almost that very start of a project's life, know, they kind of, you know, working with the operator, trying to identify the challenges of the actual project itself. But then I also obviously deal with decommissioning. I've been in the decommissioning ⁓ sector really for my whole duration with ⁓ Bura Veritas, which is just over 11 years now. Time flies when you're having fun. ⁓ And within that, then I was responsible for actually putting together our global decommissioning strategy. When I joined Bura Veritas ⁓ in 2015, in the massive downturn, what I was employed to sell and take to market, nobody really was interested in the North Sea because I was based in Aberdeen. Because everybody was talking about decommissioning because the barrel price was so low at the time. And when I was then asking, you know, what do we do in decom? And at that point at a local level, was nothing. But actually when I then reached into the global network and we also grow, you know, organically, but we also grow through acquisitions. We actually had a lot of decommissioning experience across the network and we'd actually been delivering. services into decommissioning projects since the early 90s. So once I actually pulled together all the various people and individuals and worked out where our expertise was, then actually back sort of 2015, 2016, then put that together as an offering and then have been in that decommissioning space ever since. So yeah, I kind of say to people that I'm always dealing with capex and then decom, so it's almost, you know, they're kind of christening and funeral. I get both ends. Get both ends of the stickle.
speaker-1: And unlike many of the guests that we've had on here, you are neither a scientist nor an engineer, is that right?
speaker-0: That is right. Which some people do think that I am an engineer, but I think I've just spent so much of my life with engineers and technical people and trying to, I suppose the bit that I've always done is take that real technical element, understand what they're doing, but then also trying to distill it so that anybody can understand and appreciate what they're trying to communicate. So I've probably made a career of bridging that kind of gap. ⁓ So I know as somebody says, you know enough to be dangerous, you know from an engineering context, you know what mean? But at the same time, my heritage is very much commercial. you know, like ⁓ from a degree perspective was business studies. went back 10 years later and did my MBA. So yeah, it's very much on the commercial side of things, my pay degree.
speaker-1: Yeah. So you do look at the industry through a different lens from a lot of the other people that, you know, that we would normally deal with. Most of the people we deal with are, they're engineers or they are technical, very technical based, you know, looking at the tooling, looking at how do you cook this? How do you pick this up? What do do with it? Or they're the scientists looking at the environmental impact or, or how do you decontaminate things? So coming at it from a, from a commercial. through a commercial, seeing the industry through a commercial lens is actually a really, it's a really different, really interesting way, I guess, for us to engage on all of this. So yeah, you got to about 2015 or 2016 in terms of the journey, your journey in with BV. And then I guess the downturn stopped. Different places around the world, I guess it stopped at different times, but things then picked up and you sort of imagine so more activity in the space.
speaker-0: Yeah, well, war activity in the space. suppose we were, you I was champion and, know, specifically then around, you know, from a decommission, just talking about decommissioning, but I was then really championing that as well. You know, once we've, it's like, you know, we've got this whole offering and actually here's all the references and things that we've done in the past. And it was brilliant actually to bring all of that together. ⁓ And then also prior to me joining the business a few years before, ⁓ somebody had actually put together a document that was a guide to the regulations for decommissioning. And I'd had some feedback from what was Decomed or See at the time to say, look, this is a brilliant document. It was the first time I'd actually seen it. So then I threw myself into all the regulations and then said, we should do an update on all of this. So we did and got the right people together to then do a full refresh of it all and publish that. So it was just a really interesting... time and a journey. then as that's all matured, then it's evolved as the markets matured ⁓ and in the different geographies as well. like I was saying to my boss just yesterday, I could be completely 100 % decommissioning at the moment. But the capex part of our business that I cover is the lion's shater for sure. But actually just the amount of activity in decommissioning currently is huge. There's a big marked difference in it. And what I find is that certain geographies, need more of that handholding and some of the operators as well, you know, because they're sometimes being presented with a lot of this for the first time or, you know, they're very early on in their own decommissioning journey. So they want support, they want guidance, they want that kind of international view, you know, to try and understand, you know, how do other countries deal with this, you know, what's my competitors and my peers actually doing. So it's, I thoroughly enjoy it. I think we've got quite a privileged position because you get quite a holistic view on all of this. So as you say, know, I look at it, suppose, as kind of from a market perspective, but I really get involved from a people element. know, throughout my whole career has been matching sort of business challenges with people's expertise and trying to put the right people together to have the right conversation. So we do that technically, but then also when you're saying like cutting tools and things, you know, we might be looking at it from best available technology, we might be helping them from a certification perspective, right through to then the actual full scale project and the decommissioning itself. So you deal with everybody across the supply chain as well as the regulators.
speaker-1: Yeah. So if you were to try and distill Bureau Veritas' offering in the decommissioning space into, don't know, a couple of sentences or something like that, yeah. How would, how would you, yeah, I'm going to get it right down to one word if I keep going with this. You know, or a couple of paragraphs or, know, or five minutes of monologue. How would you, how would you really sort of frame it down to say, this is, this is what we do. ⁓ In terms of that space and just again for people that maybe aren't as familiar with the work that the business does.
speaker-0: Yeah, because I think Bureau Veritas is quite unique because we cover so many different aspects. if you've engaged with Bureau Veritas, then you start to see this sort of Pandora's box that opens up of all these different things that they can do. And then others will never potentially have engaged with us at all, you know. So I think we, in the DCOM space, definitely that technical consultancy, we support from ⁓ navigating the regulations. and the regulatory support and guidance that the clients then require. ⁓ We help them manage their risk across the project. ⁓ We're also looking at, you know, we sometimes are also like site rep. So we've got like some large contracts just now where it's almost a kind of QEQC type function that we're doing, where we're then being the eyes and ears of the operator or supporting then the EPRD contractor. And then anything to do with, you from an environmental perspective, so environmental impact assessments, looking at waste disposal and ship recycling facility plans, so working with ports and then all the marine side of things as well for then offshore assets. So Marine Assurance, Marine Warranty Services is another area that we cover.
speaker-1: Yeah, two very long sentences. Well done. Thank you.
speaker-0: You tempted me.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, I wasn't counting at all. No, no, no, I wasn't counting at all. So you mentioned earlier, your role gives you, you you've got a global role you get to see. You get, I guess you get to look over the fence into all these different jurisdictions, all on different points on their decommissioning journey. ⁓ How do you see things at the moment? What's your, what's the dawn's eye view of where things are at?
speaker-0: With Domensai View. I might market that. Yeah. The Domensai View. Well, suppose just, I think just recently, you know, I was in Thailand for GAS Tech. There's a lot currently going on. I had a call this morning ⁓ with Vietnam regarding opportunities. There's ongoing peace in Brunei ⁓ and there's a SPE event there at the start of December, which we're working with them on. And then Brazil. I've just been there recently as well. even just that, like in the last six weeks, four weeks even, maybe, honestly, it's, I think in that Southeast Asia perspective, there's more and more activity. It definitely offers a long term scope. There's a huge portfolio of aging assets. And I think they're a point, they're all slightly different as far as their... ⁓ I suppose, execution and commitment to actually delivering on the decomm side. So each country's maybe got a slightly different view on the timing of when that's going to happen. But as far as is the volume of infrastructure there to actually support a very buoyant market, then absolutely. I think what's interesting as well is that with some of the conversations that we have, there's in the past a lot was very much about the execution of decommissioning. you know, and that physical removal and the engineering aspects and everything of it. I think what I see now, you know, ⁓ globally, ⁓ is a bigger push towards actually the financial part and then the re-use repurposing, et cetera, side of things. ⁓ I think on the financial side, you know, they're really understanding, you know, what are the liabilities and governments getting more and more interested. and actually like what does this liability actually look like and are the actual arrow numbers correct? You know, and I've spent some time recently in this year more and more so with actually that sort of financial insurance and kind of C-sweep about board and director ⁓ group of people and their interest isn't about the... the fancy cutting tool and all the rest of it, know, we're chasing, know, and going, ⁓ wow, look at that, you know. You know, they want to know about the numbers. They want to know, well, is this number correct? And if it's not correct, then what should it be? But then they also need in their kind of wheelhouse, what questions should I be asking as you know, ⁓ a director on the board to challenge me with what operations are doing? Because it's something that's maybe happening for the first time.
speaker-1: No, very different.
speaker-0: So there's that gap. And I think that's been really quite interesting recently, know, spending more more time with that sort of community. And the repurposing and reuse side, it's been something that's been talked about for years and years and years. know, I've sat in many a workshop looking at it over the years. But I think now it does feel that there's starting to, you know, change towards that. In some ways it's like it's... There's examples, but they're sort of sporadic. And it's trying to bring a lot of that sort of information together. Because when you do talk to people and actually share the stories of examples that you're aware of, they come alive, you know, because they haven't got those reference points because they're not in that unity full time. ⁓ And I see that as actually being quite interesting because there is, you know, nobody doesn't want to do almost like reused repurposing. It's like there's a whole willingness. You know, you know, not just about from a sustainability perspective and potentially the right thing to do, but actually there's financial implications and positive outcomes that can come from it as well, but beyond that. So there's a real want to understand. And I think there's a willing in the industry and it feels like they're coming together in a bit more pace now. Again, certain jurisdictions in certain countries are more focused on it than others. And there's more regulatory focus again in certain areas to demonstrate that you're considering it. actually, I think the bit for me that I get on my high horse a little bit about is that broader value piece. And I don't think they always think of the bigger picture. It can just be almost reusing something and then, what would the equivalent be of having that if we bought it brand new? And it's so linear sometimes, the thinking. ⁓ But then when you actually get out into the community and get more stories that are actually shared of where things have happened, that's a bit more blue sky thinking. It's really inspiring. And I think as a global community, we need to share more of that so that there's more examples and it just becomes a good, know, longer term.
speaker-1: Yeah. It sounds like you've found your tribe in terms of talking about the financial side, talking about the risks, talking about all the other things, getting away from the, look at that cool widget over there. really does. It sounds so much like you've found your tribe, or maybe they've found you, me or the other. what you're describing there is something I would agree completely in terms of what I'm seeing now as well when you talk to the The maturing jurisdictions, particularly, they are now seeing what this work actually costs as opposed to what they've been told it was going to cost. ⁓ The two numbers can be significantly different. The optimism bias around the first cut estimate is a number. And then, as you say, at the board level, these numbers are becoming significant enough to make it to the board for a lot of these businesses. And this probably seeing that flow through from their director peers in other organizations who are saying, hey, if you see what's going on over here, don't trust your numbers, understand what the numbers are, see where they're coming from. Is there a way you can minimize some of that spend as well along the way? It's so interesting that that's the trend, if you like, that you're seeing now.
speaker-0: And I think it is a part of that, that the numbers are so huge. And from a directorship perspective, know, one of your main roles is obviously the financial security of the organization. So to then almost have a number double or 50 % more. it's like, where did that come from? know, because actually your obligation and your responsibility is that there shouldn't be these sort of surprises. So there's more and more focus, I think. on that because there is this unfortunate sort of trend that actually the numbers that are presented versus actually what reality looks like can be significantly different.
speaker-1: Yeah. And a harder sell to the board, I imagine, compared to the cost of building a new facility going up, because you can always say, well, we'll make it on the back end. We'll recover that money through production. We'll recover that money through facility optimization, through the value of our product. Decommissioning, there isn't that, that opportunity isn't there. This is, this is money that you've hopefully saved up or it's drawing out of your revenue. And when it's spent, there's no, there's no recovery on it. It's gone.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's the thing as well, is thinking about the asset residual value. That's key part, you know, all of that cost. Well, what is there as residual value? You know, what could either the assets next life be or portions of the assets next life? And then how do you... And I think there's a piece around that communication element of how you communicate these things to the board. And when you're in that financial community, you know, and you've just got this, you know, the... cost of the asset just getting depreciated over time and the cost of decommissioning that actually as things change, know, and identifying, right, actually we're now going to extend the life of that asset. Well, how you report that and how you communicate it then, well, if you didn't extend it and okay, it costs to extend its life, but then how do you report that? You know, how do you take that off the cost of decommissioning? Because actually there's something that wasn't originally scheduled. there's, you know, it's It's a ways of accounting for this, but then actually it's how the business is then managed. ⁓ And then actually if it has got a new purpose, a new life, you whether that's been sold, whether it's the whole asset being reused, whether it's elements of it being repurposed, then what's that value? And can you then show that that's actually, you know, reducing the cost of decommissioning? Because actually you're offsetting the end value of it. And there's a piece there with CCS, for example. We talk about the opportunities for repurposing pipelines then for CCS projects. But when CCUS really kicks in, and we're anticipating that there will be a utilisation piece longer term as well of what that commercial model will look like, then you can really, depending on what it looks like, the cost of decommissioning could vanish. That's actually a whole new revenue stream for the business. So it's trying to change some of that thinking, but also what I think is then having that financial community more involved in a lot of this, because actually it sits on a P &L as a cost, gets to whatever that juncture is that it's now seen that it has to move into decommissioning, and then it moves over into the team to then do it, you know, as opposed to that, to really, you know, best managed throughout its life, throughout the business, you know, and the different ⁓ different stakeholders within the organisation ⁓ contributing to that.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And think sometimes the value something for me that that gets people's, you you hear it time and time again, follow the money, you know, so where is the money? So if there is still then perceived money at the end, then it gets attention. From the board, from the lunch, you know, from C-suite. So I think as a community, as a decommissioning community, we need to shift some of that language as well to then get. And I do see a change in earlier engagement for planning, decommissioning and things. That's definitely changing. Changing slowly is probably ⁓ more realistic. But actually, if we really try and shift that value piece, then potentially it could have more interest right at the start of an asset's life, because you're trying to protect what your potential value is at the end.
speaker-1: and your exposure and your risk and at the governmental level as well. I think you mentioned earlier that governments, we're certainly finding here in Australia and I'm sure in other places around the world as well, governments are developing a very deep interest in decommissioning when they are on the hook for a portion of that cost, whatever that proportion is going to be in different places around the world.
speaker-0: Totally, and then actually when I was in Brazil, I was out on operators and it was a CAPEX discussion about a new pipeline. And one of the guys had seen then on my business card, you know, that said CAPEX and decommissioning. So he then brought up, you know, well, what's the decommissioning bit and wanted to know. So I just gave him a long two sentence piece about what we do. ⁓ And he then said to me, know, well, Maybe if you've got a subject matter expert that could support me in identifying the best design and materials then for this new pipeline so that we can work on the basis that longer term its potential to be repurposed for CCS is higher. I was just like, at last, last designing with not just decommending, but designing for repurposing. Honestly, I about looped over the boardroom table to hug the guy, you know what Finally! Finally! You know, so, and that's just an example, you know, I mean, there's a whole world out there that we need to try and convert, never mind, hopefully through the breadth of the reach of this podcast, that'll help.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And whatever comes off the back end of it. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's absolutely fascinating. So are you, are you seeing particular sort of hotspots around the world? know, particularly since we, since we set this recording up, I've watched you bounce all over the planet. So, you know, it's the, you, are you seeing any particular areas that you're thinking, ⁓ that's really interesting. Brazil. mean, Brazil for me is a fascinating market. what's going on there, the scale and the challenges that they've got there. I see them often as the closest analog to what we're dealing with here in Australia, except they've got more similar, similar distance and everything else.
speaker-0: You know, as you'd expect, obviously, activity wise, know, North Sea, Australia, you're better versed than me. Brazil, I think, I agree, you know, I find it fascinating out there. ⁓ The sheer volume, but also the appetite. And already they're doing things slightly different. The country has got challenges, it has got parts of the ⁓ sort of full decommissioning, you know, end to end. There's elements that are missing at the moment, but it's nothing that can't be supported by partners internationally then coming into the market. And there's a lot of appetite to do that and there's actual projects to do that at the moment, which we're also involved in trying to create that whole ecosystem then actually in Brazil. Because what I find brilliant with them is that not only have they got such volume of decommissioning now and in the next five years, but then actually the next sort of 20 years of decombat at the same time there's a huge capex market there you know we are supporting brand new projects to go in so life cycle of decommissioning is going to continue for Brazil you know it's it's really interesting whereas there's parts of the planet which will remain nameless you know where there's a lot of decommissioning but there's not so much capex going on ⁓ so that market is only just going to deal with the decommissioning and then it will change to new energy sources and it will change forevermore.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I got to say, I love dealing with the folks from Brazil. They, appetite, the enthusiasm and the passion and everything that they bring. And one of the, one of the best earlier podcasts that we did was with Valverde from ⁓ Petrobras. Absolutely fascinating conversation that we had with them. And yeah, you're right that they're not just, they're not just decommissioning. They're building as much as they take account. And, and, and they're building for 20, 30, 40 years of production from those new ones. So they're going to be decommissioning for generations yet and they will build the solutions.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's interesting, know, when we've talked before and been on panels and things around careers and decommissioning and stuff like that, there's a place that you can, not only it could be your career, but actually, there's generations potentially that could be specialists in that area.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. So we talked before we started this about sort of side gigs and other things as well. know, you're more than just Dawn the, Dawn the, a very task person, aren't you? You've got, you've got, you've got multiple activities going on in the background. Do you want to spend a couple of minutes just filling in some of the gaps on the, on the paint by numbers picture there?
speaker-0: So I suppose, yeah, so I think you'd referred it into notes as a side hustle, but it probably started as a side hustle. It's very much a business in its own right now. ⁓ But yeah, think, you know, back to where my earlier point was, suppose, business challenges with people's expertise. And I found myself in the same situation where when my son started school, I suppose I foolishly thought that then would be vapour in childcare would then come with that. And then very quickly as a full-time working mum found that your childcare provision went from 10 hours to six and that included you doing all the drop-off. You're like, this doesn't work. This does not work. And at the time his school actually had a huge waiting list potentially and actually spoke to the headmistress about it and they were saying four to five years until it cleared. And I will, can't continue to do what we did, know, primary one was just, it was a wee shame, you know, every day it's like that, where am I going today? Where am I going today? And actually the, by the time we got to the, the summer of him going then and to B2, I just decided to actually, how difficult could it be to set up your own childcare business and to provide that wraparound care? Cause everybody I spoke to, We're in similar situations unless they had grandparents that lived around the corner or something. And living in Aberdeen, there's a lot of people have come to Aberdeen for work. They haven't brought all of their entire family tree with them. They've come on their own as a family. So yeah, so basically started up a wraparound childcare business to serve my own needs, but potentially supports others as well. So we started off with... 20 children. ⁓ And then, and also made the parents volunteer, which was actually more difficult to manage than the actual kids themselves. ⁓ Of how you'll get the parents to do their volunteering stint. ⁓ But it was, it's been such a journey. And actually from there, there was an opportunity also presented itself where local council decided to stop providing wraparound care. As you can imagine, there was a huge, huge cry. across the community from thousands of parents saying, well, what do we do now? And because of the model that we had, we then worked with the council and with the ⁓ regulator to actually put in place then wraparound childcare in other areas. So now we've got probably nearly 250 children, ⁓ which is a lot, you know, but now we've got managers in each of the locations that then manage this. We've just gone into our fourth academic year with the children. And it's great. It's great to see, you know, we've got over 30 part-time staff. It's been a really rewarding journey actually, you know, bringing these people into the workplace. Some who have taken time out to have raised their own family and wondering how do you get back into the workplace? And we've got, you know, Duke of Edinburgh. kids and teenagers that can't get volunteering jobs. You know, they just won't give them a chance. So they come and volunteer with us. And then some of them we've given jobs as well. And it's just grown arms and legs actually over the last couple of years. now we've got holiday camps and everything else. So it's been an amazing journey and it can make for quite a varied day from, you know, dealing with multi-million. Pound contracts to then get in a WhatsApp about is Jessica allergic to chocolate or does she just not like bourbon biscuits. know, you have the whole plethora of a day in the life of Dawn sometimes. But it's great. It's great. It's certainly something that's become much more than I ever thought it was. I thought I was just solving a problem for myself and now actually it's become a huge community thing, which is excellent.
speaker-1: It goes back to that personal drive to solve problems, doesn't it? Rather than just sit there, because you could just easily sit there and say, yeah, I am experiencing this problem, but it's someone else's job to fix it for me. Instead of which you've said, I am experiencing this and if I don't fix it, then maybe no one will. And you fixed it for yourself and for 250 other children.
speaker-0: Yeah, the North East of Scotland. Yeah, and the thing now is, know, it's a working model, it works exceptionally well, know, we're less and less involved, you know, as it's growing actually, because you physically can't do it, you know, so there's managers in place, we've got administrators. ⁓ But it's actually a point now that you can franchise it because there's such a need for wraparound care and quite often people have either got a real interest in care ⁓ But then I'm quite scared about the business side of things. Or they might know the regulation side of it, but then they actually don't want to have a business and they don't want to work there. So their personal drivers sometimes don't match to maybe actually set something like this up. And again, I think just because you do business, can pack all that, you know? So yeah, that's the next step.
speaker-1: Yeah, this is... Another bullfight. I know. We've got our women in decommissioning special interest group. Maybe we should have a childcare in decommissioning special interest group or something we should establish.
speaker-0: The settling on glee. Yes.
speaker-1: Yes, for families to survive in the modern world where typically both parents, if there are both parents or one parent, if it's a single parent, they have to get out, they have to do the work, but the children have to be taken care of as well. It just gets harder and harder.
speaker-0: It does, it gets really difficult and then I think, you know, quite often as well. Unfortunately, you know, quite often that sort of caring role and responsibility quite often lands on the female as well. And I talked to so many mums and parents and also either who are wanting to use our services or just general discussion in the playground, or it can be people who are then applying for jobs. And it's challenging. There's lots of challenges for them, but there's a... but they also want to contribute. So one of the things that had come out in our first year actually, interviewing a lady who was going to be perfect, but it turned out she was a single parent and she just started asking so many very specific questions about the pay and she didn't seem, I don't know, it just didn't match with her kind of personality. So I was a like, what's behind this? All these questions. And she was just really trying to understand how much she would definitely get. because she would have to pay for childcare for her daughter while she was then working for us. And I was like, is this such a challenge? Just bring her. So how much will that cost? Will it cost you? know, like, what's it going to cost me? know, a snack and a drink of juice. Just bring it. And she continues having fun with her friends. You earn money. Jobs are good. You know, what's the issue? And she was just like, I can't believe it. And then very quickly, like, This just makes sense. So now, if a parent is working for us, they get a child's place for free. It helps them out as well, which is great.
speaker-1: that you can do. whole pile of the service. Yeah. That's absolutely wonderful. Yeah. So to come back to the decommissioning world for a couple of minutes before we, before we wrap things up, when you look, know, having seen everything that's going on and seeing where the trends are and everything else, what do you think are the opportunities to really make things better for decommissioning around the world?
speaker-0: ⁓ I think the ongoing bit around earlier engagement, to the point of designing for decommissioning or designing for repurposing, might be even more appropriate now. I think the earlier that it can be on the table, the better, so that it's properly managed from both the actual execution of delivering decommissioning, but as I mentioned earlier, the financial part of it. I think there being more open knowledge about actually the costs that are potentially ⁓ applied with that, but equally what the potential residual value could be from the asset. And I think longer term as well, that people thinking, you know, that this is something that actually on how they account for that residual value, that that can be assessed, you know, every time maybe there's a new methodology about how to decommission that would reduce the cost or a new technology comes online or utilization from CCS, all of these things will change that. And then it changes the drive down, the cost of decommissioning that we too often hear to actually it's a much more thing about how it's being managed. You know, it's not just about driving down the cost at all cost. Actually, it's, you know, it's been much more ⁓ thoughtful and purposeful about that as early on as possible. And I think also, you know, having that financial community really involved in it. will help. And that whole repurposing side of things, know, the repurposing, reuse, we've talked about it for a very long time. And there's lots of great examples now around the world. And also not just from an oil and gas context, but actually thinking about like mining and stuff too, like actually bring these communities together to share, you know, what's actually been able to happen, not just from an environment. engineering context but from an environmental impact and also the societal piece, which is huge as well in the mining side of things. So I think that broad, as early as possible kind of engagement, that repurposing piece and then certainly the financial discussions, being very open and honest and putting the right number down. As best knowledge possible actually. really think about what is that number going to look like and how do we actually manage that as an organisation ⁓ and as governments, for example, if they haven't effuced a portion of that bill as well, so that there's transparency.
speaker-1: And more honesty and honesty is probably not the right word for this, but more clarity around the actual turnout cost will influence the decisions that get made in terms of what you're actually going to do with the decommissioning. If you think you can do your project for a hundred million pounds, for instance, and and, in your mind, you know, it's probably going to be near a 300 million. That makes a material difference to how you would frame up, plan, execute. option here and everything else, the work that you're going to do, because they are quantum different numbers to the balance sheet for an organization. And having those conversations before you commit to what you're actually, how are you going to do the work to think things off all these things through is, you know, it's a really interesting lens to put on that. Yeah, I love it. I love it. So last couple of minutes, anything else you would like to add to all of that? you've had burning away as another side hustle you've got on the cards that you want to talk about or anything like that?
speaker-0: can't think of anything from that point of view. ⁓ But no, I think in summary, there's so much scope out there ⁓ in decommissioning and I think there's real opportunity for sure. It's an exciting industry. And as I've been, as you mentioned, of hopscotching around the globe ⁓ over the last few months. It just makes it even more and more apparent because the more conversations that you have, then it just keeps evolving into more and more deeper conversations and more challenges that are being presented to me and to the business as to what can you do to try and help us and help us solve this going forward. So it's a very, very interesting thing.
speaker-1: Really is. Good time to be alive in decommissioning. Wonderful. Look, thank you so, so, so much for this, Dawn. It's been absolutely brilliant ⁓ to catch up with you and have this conversation. ⁓ I'm sure if anyone wants to find you, you are not hard to track down, are you? mean, except they may have to hang out in an airport to find you rather than actually find you on the ground somewhere, but you know.
speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn, that's for sure. Where I am might be another question.
speaker-1: You are available though, available for consultation and childcare purposes if needed. Wonderful. Look, thank you again. Thank you so much for this. And yeah, we'll speak again soon. Thank you.
speaker-0: Thanks, Frances.
speaker-1: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Plugging Away. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. you'd like to learn more about Coda and what we do, please visit our website at decommissioning.org.au. Or if you'd like to reach out to me or any of our team, please drop us an email at contact at decommissioning.org.au. Thanks again for tuning in. Until next time.
