With e-MERLIN facing the axe, what next for Jodrell Bank and UK astronomy?

WEBVTT
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- Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories
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- podcast.
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- I'm Andrew Lester.
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- Now hopefully, if you're listening to this in
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- the Northern Hemisphere, you've managed to get away
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- and take a bit of a break over
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- these summer months. And maybe if you happen
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- to be on the Western edge of Europe,
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- then like me, you might even have been
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- lucky enough to catch a glimpse of the
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- recent solar eclipse.
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- But for a large number of academic astronomers
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- here in The UK,
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- this summer has been anything but relaxing.
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- The UK science funding body STFC
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- recently announced a wave of budget cuts.
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- They're not just minor tweaks, but cuts that
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- could genuinely put the future of one of
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- our most iconic scientific
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- instruments, the Lovell Telescope at Jodrell
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- Bank, in serious doubt.
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- And it doesn't stop there. The implications ripple
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- far beyond Jodrell Bank, threatening major facilities
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- across particle physics,
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- nuclear physics, and astronomy
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- nationwide.
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- It's left a lot of people asking some
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- fairly urgent questions about where UK science is
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- heading.
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- As you'd expect,
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- the researchers and physicists affected by this have
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- been completely reeling.
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- But they're not just sitting back. They're uniting
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- in opposition
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- backed by some very prominent international figures in
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- science
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- doing everything they can to sound the alarm
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- on what many see as a short sighted
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- decision
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- and one that could do lasting damage to
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- the quality and reputation
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- of British research.
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- So what exactly is on the chopping block
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- and why should we care? To find out,
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- I caught up with two people based at
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- Jodrell Bank which sits on the flat rural
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- expanse of the Cheshire Plain about 20 miles
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- south of Manchester.
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- First up, here's professor Simon Garrrington
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- to break down what eMerlin
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- actually is.
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- I'm the director of eMerlin, and I'm one
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- of the associate directors of the Jodrabank Centre
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- for Astrophysics at the University of Manchester.
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- I think one of the things that I
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- find quite difficult to imagine is how do
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- you link up these telescopes? How do you
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- because there's people listening to this from all
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- over the world. Right? And they maybe the
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- English countryside isn't something that they'll know very
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- well. Could you help us visualize the the
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- process of linking up these telescopes
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- when it was started?
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- Absolutely.
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- Yeah. I have been here quite a while.
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- I came to do my PhD here at
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- Jodrell Bank in the mid nineteen eighties.
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- And then I've and after that, I I
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- started working on,
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- Merlin, which is the predecessor of of e
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- Merlin
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- and then the e Merlin project itself, which
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- I'll talk about in a sec.
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- I project managed that and then became the
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- director of e Merlin.
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- So the idea of connecting telescopes together,
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- to make effectively a larger aperture
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- and therefore getting more resolution,
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- you know, developed,
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- in Cambridge and here,
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- Jodrell Bank in
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- the nineteen fifties and sixties.
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- And at Jodrell Bank, the push was to
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- to go for higher and higher resolution. So
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- to get the telescopes further and further apart,
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- the resolution is just the wavelength divided by
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- the the distance between the telescopes in that
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- case. And so every time you make you
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- get the telescopes further apart, you see more
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- detail. And the challenge here was was to
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- do that over,
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- not just a few kilometers, but over tens
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- and hundreds of kilometers.
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- And that culminated in this network,
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- Merlin, so a number of telescopes
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- owned and operated by the University of Manchester
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- across The UK,
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- with separations up to about a 100 kilometers
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- at that point.
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- And
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- they were initially linked by radio links, so
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- sending the signal
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- back to Jodra Bank on a on a
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- microwave radio link.
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- But in in around 2000 and,
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- '4, we started a project to connect those
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- telescopes
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- with essentially our own Internet.
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- The amount of data coming from one single
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- telescope at that point exceeded the total UK
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- Internet traffic. So we had to build our
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- own fiber network to connect those telescopes together,
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- which we did, and that became e Merlin.
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- So we're we're we're these are all telescopes,
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- that it
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- in in other cases, we join together with
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- telescopes
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- operated by other people in other countries, but
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- eMerlin is is within The UK, and all
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- those telescopes are remotely operated from George Orwell
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- Bank.
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- So we we we bring those signals together
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- and we literally focus that telescope here. So
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- so now that the the maximum separation between
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- those telescopes is 220
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- kilometers,
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- those signals come in our own private optical
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- network to here.
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- And instead of the curved parabola
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- of a big dish focusing those signals to
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- a point,
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- we are focusing, we are combining those signals
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- and those digital signals in a correlator here
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- at Joffre Bank and creating a single antenna
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- which is 220
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- kilometers across.
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- Okay. So but you've you've had to build
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- your own optical network fiber optical network. And,
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- I mean, that's buried underground. It was. Yeah.
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- We had to dig in about a 100
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- kilometers of fiber itself, and then we lease
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- fiber from multiple fiber providers
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- to have our own network. Yeah. And that
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- just now, just in the last few weeks,
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- we've now upgraded that whole network,
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- to have a 100 gigabit,
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- Ethernet transport on that network to to give
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- us even greater capacity for the future.
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- So that's bringing in an awful lot of
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- data. How do you manage that data when
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- it comes through?
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- So currently, we have, it's called a correlator
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- that does only does a single thing. It
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- it takes those digital digital streams and does
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- a complex multiplication and accumulation.
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- And that at the moment is specialized hardware.
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- What we're now doing is with
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- with large numbers of CPUs in a cluster
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- or GPUs, you can do that in more
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- general purpose hardware. And so we're migrating,
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- with a new a new data transport technique
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- and a new,
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- correlator to do that. So so that's just
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- to give you a flavor of that that,
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- you know, you've we we we know we're
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- facing
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- facing very significant,
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- significant challenges at the moment, but at the
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- same time, we are in the process of
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- upgrading the whole network. So, so we never
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- sound still some of the telescopes,
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- may, may date back the level telescope in
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- front of me now dates back to the
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- nineteen fifties,
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- but all of the electronics and all of
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- the equipment has been continually upgraded, and that
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- applies to to eMearthing too. So it's there's
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- no sense in which eMearthing is
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- old technology.
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- We have put state of the art technology
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- into eMerlin. We've continually upgraded that. It's very
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- similar technology that The UK is is putting
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- into SKA as well.
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- Clearly, that money was awarded a few years
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- ago well before these cuts were decided.
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- And just to be clear, E. Mlyn is
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- a key part of what the Lovell Telescope
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- does at Jodrell Bank. So taking away that
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- funding of such a core part of its
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- work means that the telescope itself is under
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- threat, but the story doesn't stop there. We're
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- losing
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- a huge capability
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- that The UK has for not just for
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- radio astronomy, but other things as well, such
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- as space situation awareness.
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- We would lose
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- decades of skills and expertise
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- in operating those telescopes,
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- both as individual telescopes and as a network,
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- our expertise in the data
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- processing
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- and analysis.
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- Because it takes a whole team,
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- 28 people in the Merlin team to operate
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- these.
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- And the loss of that expertise,
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- would be terribly very hard to build up
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- that expertise again,
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- if this team is broken up.
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- We'll hear more from professor Simon Garrington later
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- in the podcast. But one of the people
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- with that expertise
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- is doctor David Williams Baldwin. I'm a research
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- fellow and operation support scientist for the e
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- Merlin,
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- radio networks,
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- of,
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- dishes,
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- which when combined,
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- gives us about the same,
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- ability to see the the sharp the image
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- resolution as the Hubble Telescope.
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- Okay. When you say see, you're not seeing,
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- are you? Radio telescope? So we are seeing,
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- but we're just seeing in a different wavelength
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- of light.
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- So if you take the Hubble Telescope as
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- the comparison again,
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- you'll see beautiful optical images
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- of, nearby galaxies,
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- and they will pinpoint stars
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- and gas and dust lanes and things like
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- that. But,
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- radio waves,
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- can can
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- penetrate through,
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- all of that gas and dust. So when
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- when we when I say we're seeing, what
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- we're looking for is radio emission coming from
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- those nearby galaxies,
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- and that radio emission can be generated from
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- lots of different things.
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- So black holes,
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- can make
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- small scale jets that we can observe using
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- the radio emission.
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- You can see them as shells of supernova
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- remnants.
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- So these gradually continually
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- expand.
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- And so one of the things I've been
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- looking at is a nearby galaxy called m
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- 82
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- where there's lots of gas and dust in
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- the optical.
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- And but with the radio, we can see
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- straight through all of that, and we can
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- look at the
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- the compact source population of all these little
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- supernova remnants with eMerlin
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- and then
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- watch as they grow and expand and evolve
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- over the course of,
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- well,
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- five decades, I think, where we're up to
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- now. EMerlin and its predecessors,
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- I should say. And, also, we we link
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- the eMerlin telescope up with other telescopes in
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00:10:11.284 --> 00:10:11.784
- Europe,
271
00:10:12.804 --> 00:10:14.184
- which is known as the EVN.
272
00:10:14.565 --> 00:10:15.304
- And so
273
00:10:15.690 --> 00:10:18.970
- combination of emailing, its predecessor, Merlin, and the
274
00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:21.309
- predecessor to that, which is the MTRLI,
275
00:10:23.370 --> 00:10:24.669
- those three together
276
00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:26.990
- and the European VLBI network.
277
00:10:27.529 --> 00:10:29.769
- The EVN, it's about fifty years, I think,
278
00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:31.925
- we're nearly up to. Amazing. I mean, it
279
00:10:31.925 --> 00:10:34.644
- sounds like wizardry, but presumably that's not where
280
00:10:34.644 --> 00:10:36.425
- the Merlin name comes from.
281
00:10:37.045 --> 00:10:37.545
- No.
282
00:10:38.485 --> 00:10:40.485
- It it it does sometimes feel like,
283
00:10:41.845 --> 00:10:43.384
- that we're doing sort of wizardry
284
00:10:43.685 --> 00:10:44.504
- work because,
285
00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:47.620
- we're combining all of these signals from all
286
00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.440
- of these telescopes,
287
00:10:50.660 --> 00:10:53.059
- and we bring all those signals back here
288
00:10:53.059 --> 00:10:55.320
- to Jodrell Bank, and we put it through,
289
00:10:55.940 --> 00:10:57.940
- what we call our correlator. If you think
290
00:10:57.940 --> 00:10:59.160
- about this as a supercomputer,
291
00:10:59.884 --> 00:11:00.384
- essentially.
292
00:11:01.245 --> 00:11:02.225
- And so we
293
00:11:02.764 --> 00:11:05.085
- time the signals that we receive from each
294
00:11:05.085 --> 00:11:07.404
- of those telescopes, and we align them here,
295
00:11:07.404 --> 00:11:08.304
- part of the correlator.
296
00:11:09.644 --> 00:11:11.345
- And then we do some
297
00:11:12.299 --> 00:11:13.759
- calibration on that data,
298
00:11:14.539 --> 00:11:16.299
- that involves to make it so what we're
299
00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:17.919
- actually recording is the voltages
300
00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:20.240
- that we receive from the sky.
301
00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:23.500
- And when we line up all the timings
302
00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:25.759
- of all the telescope, it's almost like triangulating
303
00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:28.274
- things in the sky. So once you get
304
00:11:28.274 --> 00:11:29.735
- that calibrated properly,
305
00:11:30.995 --> 00:11:33.095
- you have to do a mathematical
306
00:11:33.475 --> 00:11:34.375
- thing called,
307
00:11:34.835 --> 00:11:35.975
- a Fourier transform,
308
00:11:36.674 --> 00:11:38.835
- and that is what produces the images that
309
00:11:38.835 --> 00:11:40.674
- we see. So it can sometimes feel like
310
00:11:40.674 --> 00:11:41.174
- wizardry,
311
00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:45.399
- but it's purely just maths. Yeah. Fair enough.
312
00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:48.679
- Math is pretty wizardry. I mean but, so
313
00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:51.879
- I I grew up in South Manchester, Timperley,
314
00:11:51.940 --> 00:11:55.139
- to be absolutely accurate for anybody who knows
315
00:11:55.139 --> 00:11:57.784
- the area. And just to the south of
316
00:11:57.784 --> 00:11:58.845
- there is
317
00:11:59.384 --> 00:12:01.784
- the Lovell Telescope at John Woodbank. So to
318
00:12:01.784 --> 00:12:03.865
- me, it's a very familiar thing. It's literally
319
00:12:03.865 --> 00:12:05.384
- over your shoulder as I'm talking to you
320
00:12:05.384 --> 00:12:07.464
- now, which is Yeah. Which is giving me
321
00:12:07.464 --> 00:12:09.625
- goosebumps, to be perfectly honest. It's just a
322
00:12:09.625 --> 00:12:11.990
- wonderful structure, isn't it? But for those people
323
00:12:11.990 --> 00:12:13.509
- maybe who haven't seen it, don't know what
324
00:12:13.509 --> 00:12:14.870
- it is, can you tell us what that
325
00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:15.370
- is?
326
00:12:15.990 --> 00:12:17.830
- Yeah. So I should say I grew up
327
00:12:17.830 --> 00:12:20.570
- in East London. So for me,
328
00:12:21.269 --> 00:12:23.830
- this was this place wasn't somewhere on my
329
00:12:23.830 --> 00:12:26.475
- horizon. I know I've lived up here in
330
00:12:26.475 --> 00:12:27.855
- the Northwest for,
331
00:12:28.315 --> 00:12:29.915
- six years now, and I know how much
332
00:12:29.915 --> 00:12:31.295
- it means to a lot of people.
333
00:12:32.235 --> 00:12:34.075
- But for me, it wasn't something that I
334
00:12:34.075 --> 00:12:35.855
- knew much growing up about.
335
00:12:36.875 --> 00:12:40.040
- But it is a Jodrell Bank here has
336
00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:42.779
- been a site for radio astronomy since,
337
00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:45.980
- the nineteen fifties. So the Lovell Telescope,
338
00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:47.980
- which is behind me right now,
339
00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:49.720
- was being built
340
00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.379
- started being built in 1952,
341
00:12:52.815 --> 00:12:54.115
- and it started
342
00:12:54.495 --> 00:12:56.434
- observations in 1957.
343
00:12:57.054 --> 00:12:59.235
- It's 70 meters in diameter,
344
00:12:59.855 --> 00:13:03.394
- which makes it still the third largest steerable
345
00:13:03.615 --> 00:13:04.514
- radio telescope
346
00:13:05.134 --> 00:13:05.875
- in the world.
347
00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:08.600
- So there's only two which are bigger, which
348
00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:10.919
- are in Effelsberg in Germany and Greenbank in
349
00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:11.500
- The US.
350
00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:13.019
- So
351
00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.320
- the side the sheer size of it means
352
00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.419
- it's got huge collecting area,
353
00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.600
- and it means it's very, very sensitive, which
354
00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:21.339
- makes it
355
00:13:22.254 --> 00:13:24.115
- very, very useful for detecting,
356
00:13:25.454 --> 00:13:28.254
- pulsars. And many of the pulsar population that
357
00:13:28.254 --> 00:13:30.914
- we know about have been studied and detected
358
00:13:30.975 --> 00:13:31.954
- using this telescope.
359
00:13:33.454 --> 00:13:35.235
- But when it was being built,
360
00:13:36.014 --> 00:13:39.009
- so it was the brainchild of, sir Bernard
361
00:13:39.009 --> 00:13:39.509
- Lovell,
362
00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:43.669
- and it was built made up of various
363
00:13:43.730 --> 00:13:45.169
- different parts of,
364
00:13:46.049 --> 00:13:48.629
- army surplus. So after the war,
365
00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:52.309
- Lovell had been involved in radar experiments,
366
00:13:53.434 --> 00:13:54.095
- and then,
367
00:13:54.554 --> 00:13:56.794
- there was all of this army surplus lying
368
00:13:56.794 --> 00:13:59.274
- around and started using this, some of the
369
00:13:59.274 --> 00:14:00.794
- steel, and some of the other bits and
370
00:14:00.794 --> 00:14:02.654
- pieces to start building,
371
00:14:03.115 --> 00:14:05.375
- what we now know as the Lovell Telescope.
372
00:14:05.595 --> 00:14:07.534
- And that includes some of, like, the
373
00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:10.440
- the the the bearings, which sort of caused
374
00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:12.600
- the the telescope to go up and down
375
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:13.259
- in elevation.
376
00:14:13.959 --> 00:14:17.339
- They are the gun turrets off of battleships.
377
00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:19.899
- And and
378
00:14:20.245 --> 00:14:22.264
- so it's quite amazing, really.
379
00:14:22.644 --> 00:14:24.325
- This this just sort of sits on the
380
00:14:24.325 --> 00:14:26.404
- Cheshire plane. You can see it for miles
381
00:14:26.404 --> 00:14:26.904
- around.
382
00:14:28.085 --> 00:14:30.404
- You can see it from Manchester Airport as
383
00:14:30.404 --> 00:14:32.884
- you take off and land, so you know
384
00:14:32.884 --> 00:14:34.105
- when you're coming home,
385
00:14:34.565 --> 00:14:35.545
- which is amazing.
386
00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:39.519
- Yeah. It's it's a wonderful piece of engineering.
387
00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:41.580
- And as I said, it's 1957
388
00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:42.639
- was when it started,
389
00:14:43.419 --> 00:14:46.700
- proper observations. So next year will be its
390
00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:48.960
- seventieth, but, yeah, seventieth birthday,
391
00:14:50.985 --> 00:14:51.565
- of observing.
392
00:14:51.945 --> 00:14:54.184
- It's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing thing. I
393
00:14:54.184 --> 00:14:56.424
- mean, I mean, I was involved in, you
394
00:14:56.424 --> 00:14:58.745
- know, monitoring of the Apollo missions, I think,
395
00:14:58.745 --> 00:15:01.164
- back in the day. And most recently,
396
00:15:01.465 --> 00:15:02.205
- I've seen
397
00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:05.730
- images on Instagram, I think, on professor Tim
398
00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:07.750
- O'Brien's Instagram of,
399
00:15:08.929 --> 00:15:10.709
- using, I think, the Lovell Telescope
400
00:15:11.089 --> 00:15:11.589
- to,
401
00:15:11.970 --> 00:15:12.789
- get radio
402
00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:16.949
- emissions from the sun during the recent eclipse.
403
00:15:17.294 --> 00:15:19.294
- Is that did that happen? You're you're nearly
404
00:15:19.294 --> 00:15:21.855
- right. It's not quite true. So the Lovell
405
00:15:21.855 --> 00:15:22.355
- Telescope,
406
00:15:23.134 --> 00:15:25.534
- on that day, we weren't observing the eclipse
407
00:15:25.534 --> 00:15:27.774
- with the Lovell Telescope. Oh, okay. But we
408
00:15:27.774 --> 00:15:29.455
- were we we were using one of the
409
00:15:29.455 --> 00:15:31.769
- other telescopes on-site known as the seven meter.
410
00:15:31.850 --> 00:15:33.309
- Because the sun is so bright,
411
00:15:33.690 --> 00:15:35.790
- we don't need to use the Lovell Telescope,
412
00:15:36.570 --> 00:15:37.950
- to to do the observations.
413
00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:41.210
- And, actually, if we did point it, it's
414
00:15:41.210 --> 00:15:43.309
- so it's so good. It's so sensitive
415
00:15:43.975 --> 00:15:45.995
- that if we had pointed it at,
416
00:15:46.375 --> 00:15:49.335
- the sun, it could have potentially damaged some
417
00:15:49.335 --> 00:15:51.595
- of the electronics in the in the receivers.
418
00:15:52.134 --> 00:15:52.534
- So,
419
00:15:53.174 --> 00:15:55.975
- no. Unfortunately, the Lovell wasn't observing the eclipse.
420
00:15:55.975 --> 00:15:58.134
- It was the seven meter telescope that was
421
00:15:58.134 --> 00:15:59.100
- observing the clips,
422
00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:02.159
- But the Lovell Telescope was observing that night,
423
00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:04.720
- and, we were observing,
424
00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:07.199
- some a program for,
425
00:16:08.059 --> 00:16:09.019
- looking at,
426
00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:09.919
- localizing,
427
00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.004
- something called a fast radio burst, which are
428
00:16:13.004 --> 00:16:15.745
- these bright flashes of radio emission
429
00:16:16.205 --> 00:16:17.504
- in nearby galaxies.
430
00:16:19.644 --> 00:16:21.565
- They can happen once, and we never see
431
00:16:21.565 --> 00:16:23.184
- them again, and some of them repeat.
432
00:16:23.485 --> 00:16:26.144
- And these repeating ones, if we keep looking,
433
00:16:26.660 --> 00:16:29.220
- we can eventually localize them and pin them
434
00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:30.660
- down. And one of the things that we
435
00:16:30.660 --> 00:16:33.540
- don't know is what are they and what
436
00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:34.759
- environments do they
437
00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:36.600
- evolve in. And so,
438
00:16:37.059 --> 00:16:38.980
- the Lovell Telescope with the rest of e
439
00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.024
- Merlin on during the eclipse, on during the
440
00:16:42.024 --> 00:16:43.625
- the night of the eclipse was actually looking
441
00:16:43.625 --> 00:16:45.465
- at one of those trying to see if
442
00:16:45.465 --> 00:16:47.565
- we can understand a bit more about them.
443
00:16:48.024 --> 00:16:49.644
- What is the radio astronomy
444
00:16:50.105 --> 00:16:52.504
- community saying to each other when they're saying,
445
00:16:52.504 --> 00:16:55.325
- what could fast radio best possibly be?
446
00:16:56.189 --> 00:16:58.110
- I think the idea is that they are,
447
00:16:58.990 --> 00:17:01.409
- magnetars. So they're highly magnetized,
448
00:17:03.069 --> 00:17:03.889
- dead stars,
449
00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:06.210
- that are like
450
00:17:06.669 --> 00:17:08.609
- a causing the bright flashes of light.
451
00:17:09.069 --> 00:17:11.250
- I'm not a expert on that area,
452
00:17:11.585 --> 00:17:13.744
- though. I could say. Okay. Sure. That's fine.
453
00:17:13.744 --> 00:17:16.384
- So going back to eMerlin, which which telescopes
454
00:17:16.384 --> 00:17:18.945
- at Jodrell Bank does eMerlin use? So at
455
00:17:18.945 --> 00:17:20.964
- Jodrell Bank, we use two of the telescopes
456
00:17:21.025 --> 00:17:23.184
- for eMerlin. So we use the level. It
457
00:17:23.184 --> 00:17:24.805
- doesn't take part in every observation,
458
00:17:25.265 --> 00:17:27.380
- but when we do, it's it's like,
459
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.099
- it it it improve it doubles the sensitivity,
460
00:17:32.320 --> 00:17:34.960
- essentially. So it has a big impact on
461
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:36.400
- the rest of the array just through the
462
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:37.839
- size of it. And then we have the
463
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:39.940
- mark two telescope, which for those
464
00:17:40.414 --> 00:17:43.134
- who are familiar with Jodrell Bank, it sits
465
00:17:43.134 --> 00:17:44.974
- a little bit away from the main visitor
466
00:17:44.974 --> 00:17:47.054
- center on the site, but it has a
467
00:17:47.134 --> 00:17:47.954
- an ellipsoidal,
468
00:17:49.134 --> 00:17:51.375
- dish. So that was an originally an experiment
469
00:17:51.375 --> 00:17:52.894
- to see if you could get more collecting
470
00:17:52.894 --> 00:17:53.394
- area,
471
00:17:54.619 --> 00:17:56.799
- without having to go like the full,
472
00:17:57.819 --> 00:17:59.419
- full size dish, but you just have an
473
00:17:59.419 --> 00:18:01.019
- elliptical one. So it's got I like to
474
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:02.559
- think of it as like got ears.
475
00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:05.899
- And then there are five other dishes. So
476
00:18:05.899 --> 00:18:08.565
- there are two in Cheshire. It's one one
477
00:18:08.565 --> 00:18:08.964
- near,
478
00:18:09.765 --> 00:18:12.345
- Pickmere, and one near Downhill in Cheshire.
479
00:18:13.444 --> 00:18:15.065
- There's one in,
480
00:18:15.845 --> 00:18:16.345
- Knockin.
481
00:18:16.884 --> 00:18:19.224
- So the Knockin telescope is near Oswell Street
482
00:18:19.284 --> 00:18:20.984
- on the the England Wales border.
483
00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:23.319
- You've got one in Deford, which is,
484
00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.380
- down near Perthshire and and and Morven.
485
00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.240
- And then you've got one in Cambridge, which
486
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:29.720
- is,
487
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.279
- well, it's at Cambridge here at the it's
488
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:34.200
- in a separate sort of compound at the
489
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.140
- Mallard Radio Astronomy Observatory.
490
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.924
- So that longest baseline from Cambridge to here,
491
00:18:40.705 --> 00:18:42.164
- so the distance apart,
492
00:18:42.785 --> 00:18:45.105
- is about 200, 220
493
00:18:45.105 --> 00:18:46.085
- kilometers ish.
494
00:18:47.424 --> 00:18:48.164
- And that
495
00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:50.150
- combination
496
00:18:50.450 --> 00:18:53.029
- of that length between those two
497
00:18:53.330 --> 00:18:54.309
- observing antennas
498
00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:57.570
- gives us the sharpness of the observations that
499
00:18:57.570 --> 00:18:58.549
- we we make.
500
00:18:59.090 --> 00:19:00.609
- Okay. Can I dig into that a little
501
00:19:00.609 --> 00:19:02.265
- bit? Because I think that's the thing that
502
00:19:02.424 --> 00:19:04.424
- when I talk to people about radio astronomy,
503
00:19:04.424 --> 00:19:05.865
- they ask me the question, and I don't
504
00:19:05.865 --> 00:19:06.684
- know the answer.
505
00:19:07.065 --> 00:19:07.565
- It's
506
00:19:08.664 --> 00:19:11.545
- it's why? Why does, why does a gap
507
00:19:11.545 --> 00:19:13.484
- between the things that you're measuring
508
00:19:14.345 --> 00:19:16.664
- give you sharpness? What does that dis why
509
00:19:16.664 --> 00:19:17.549
- isn't that just
510
00:19:18.110 --> 00:19:18.610
- nothing?
511
00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:21.090
- Yeah. So it it's
512
00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:23.250
- a it's a complicated
513
00:19:23.549 --> 00:19:23.630
- pro
514
00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:27.170
- problem, and there's lots of maths involved.
515
00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:29.309
- But in the most,
516
00:19:29.994 --> 00:19:30.494
- simplistic,
517
00:19:31.034 --> 00:19:33.214
- version, if you take a single telescope,
518
00:19:34.075 --> 00:19:34.575
- now
519
00:19:35.034 --> 00:19:35.534
- your
520
00:19:35.914 --> 00:19:36.414
- resolution,
521
00:19:36.714 --> 00:19:38.095
- so your image sharpness
522
00:19:39.034 --> 00:19:39.534
- is,
523
00:19:40.154 --> 00:19:42.634
- proportional to the wavelength of light that you're
524
00:19:42.634 --> 00:19:43.534
- observing at
525
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.340
- divided by the diameter of your dish.
526
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.299
- So if you have something like
527
00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:51.860
- the telescope behind me, the level,
528
00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:53.840
- if you use it on its own, it
529
00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:54.660
- doesn't have
530
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:55.539
- particularly
531
00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.500
- great resolution on its own
532
00:19:59.224 --> 00:20:01.144
- because it's only it's got to 70 meter.
533
00:20:01.144 --> 00:20:03.244
- Although it's 70 meters in in diameter,
534
00:20:04.505 --> 00:20:07.865
- it it doesn't actually pinpoint things down particularly
535
00:20:07.865 --> 00:20:08.365
- well.
536
00:20:09.705 --> 00:20:10.025
- For
537
00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.680
- but when you add other antennas in different
538
00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:15.180
- places,
539
00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:19.819
- as you add them,
540
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.099
- you can measure the distance between those two.
541
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.980
- You measure the time delay between those two,
542
00:20:26.355 --> 00:20:27.954
- and it's on as I said, it's sort
543
00:20:27.954 --> 00:20:28.934
- of like triangulation.
544
00:20:29.474 --> 00:20:32.134
- You you you triangulate all these signals together.
545
00:20:32.434 --> 00:20:33.174
- So, actually,
546
00:20:33.875 --> 00:20:34.375
- your
547
00:20:34.994 --> 00:20:35.494
- resolution
548
00:20:36.035 --> 00:20:39.015
- becomes instead of being proportional to your wavelength
549
00:20:39.315 --> 00:20:41.720
- of your light divided by the diameter of
550
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:42.539
- your dish,
551
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.799
- it becomes your wavelength of your light divided
552
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.619
- by the distance between your two furthest
553
00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:51.880
- elements, or in this case, your two furthest
554
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:52.779
- dishes apart.
555
00:20:53.565 --> 00:20:54.065
- So,
556
00:20:54.524 --> 00:20:55.424
- in this case,
557
00:20:56.044 --> 00:20:58.845
- having that antenna at Cambridge with the the
558
00:20:58.845 --> 00:20:59.664
- level here,
559
00:21:00.605 --> 00:21:03.424
- in at Joyful Bank, that sets our longest,
560
00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:06.539
- what we call baseline,
561
00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:09.640
- which is about 217
562
00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.519
- kilometers, I think. And that then means that
563
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.480
- we can reach a much higher resolutions than
564
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.920
- we would be able to if we just
565
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:19.125
- had the Lovell Telescope on its own.
566
00:21:19.605 --> 00:21:21.944
- Okay. But so let me just
567
00:21:22.484 --> 00:21:24.164
- get this into my head. If we put
568
00:21:24.164 --> 00:21:26.164
- one on the moon and we use the
569
00:21:26.164 --> 00:21:26.664
- jogger
570
00:21:27.125 --> 00:21:29.704
- bank telescopes and one on the moon,
571
00:21:30.644 --> 00:21:33.125
- would that be really cool? Yes. It would.
572
00:21:33.125 --> 00:21:35.400
- But would it be really good? Would that
573
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:37.559
- would do you need other things in between?
574
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:39.720
- Do you need the triangulation, or would two
575
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.880
- be okay? So you can you can do
576
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.420
- a just about do it with two.
577
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:45.559
- It is possible to do this sort of
578
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:46.059
- technique,
579
00:21:47.080 --> 00:21:49.799
- with two dishes. The more dishes you have,
580
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:50.460
- the better
581
00:21:51.055 --> 00:21:51.555
- because,
582
00:21:52.095 --> 00:21:53.394
- it gives you more sensitivity.
583
00:21:54.815 --> 00:21:57.535
- So the more collecting area you have across
584
00:21:57.535 --> 00:21:59.315
- your entire network of telescopes,
585
00:21:59.695 --> 00:22:00.994
- it gives you more sensitivity.
586
00:22:01.695 --> 00:22:04.755
- But not only that, it gives you information
587
00:22:06.015 --> 00:22:06.674
- on the
588
00:22:07.029 --> 00:22:09.390
- spatial structures between those two points. So if
589
00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:10.789
- you could think about if you've got something
590
00:22:10.789 --> 00:22:12.170
- which is north south,
591
00:22:12.789 --> 00:22:15.349
- then you've got lots of information about the
592
00:22:15.349 --> 00:22:16.650
- resolution east west,
593
00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:19.285
- but not north south. And if you have
594
00:22:19.285 --> 00:22:21.365
- an east west telescope, you've got lots of
595
00:22:21.365 --> 00:22:23.765
- resolution north south, but not east west. So
596
00:22:23.765 --> 00:22:25.285
- you add all of those together, and so
597
00:22:25.285 --> 00:22:27.384
- that paints a picture of the entire
598
00:22:28.164 --> 00:22:28.664
- source,
599
00:22:29.605 --> 00:22:31.619
- that you want to study. And so this
600
00:22:31.619 --> 00:22:33.380
- is what they do for things like the
601
00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:35.799
- event horizon telescope where you've got,
602
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:38.519
- telescopes across the world,
603
00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:42.019
- and you allow the earth to rotate. This
604
00:22:42.019 --> 00:22:43.080
- is something called
605
00:22:44.295 --> 00:22:46.235
- earth aperture rotation synthesis.
606
00:22:47.255 --> 00:22:49.095
- But but, essentially, what you're doing is you
607
00:22:49.095 --> 00:22:50.394
- just let the earth rotate.
608
00:22:50.855 --> 00:22:52.555
- And as one telescope
609
00:22:53.015 --> 00:22:55.815
- comes across and is able to start viewing
610
00:22:55.815 --> 00:22:56.315
- your
611
00:22:57.390 --> 00:22:57.789
- source,
612
00:22:58.269 --> 00:23:00.509
- you get this triangulation of lots of different
613
00:23:00.509 --> 00:23:02.590
- points, and you just allow the whole thing
614
00:23:02.590 --> 00:23:04.670
- to rotate. And every time it rotates a
615
00:23:04.670 --> 00:23:07.630
- little bit, you're viewing the same object on
616
00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:10.509
- a slightly different position angle. And so you're
617
00:23:10.509 --> 00:23:12.884
- sort of getting information. What does it look
618
00:23:12.884 --> 00:23:14.164
- on this angle, and what does it look
619
00:23:14.164 --> 00:23:15.605
- like on this angle, and what does it
620
00:23:15.605 --> 00:23:17.684
- look like at this size scale, and what
621
00:23:17.684 --> 00:23:19.284
- does it look like at this bigger size
622
00:23:19.284 --> 00:23:21.544
- scale? And you add all of that information
623
00:23:21.605 --> 00:23:24.005
- up. So it becomes an information problem in
624
00:23:24.005 --> 00:23:24.630
- the end.
625
00:23:25.109 --> 00:23:26.950
- But that's part of the reason why the
626
00:23:26.950 --> 00:23:28.250
- Event Horizon Telescope
627
00:23:28.869 --> 00:23:29.369
- needs
628
00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:32.250
- telescopes all across the world
629
00:23:33.269 --> 00:23:36.630
- to get to the really high resolutions it
630
00:23:36.630 --> 00:23:39.029
- needs to look at, for example, the shadow
631
00:23:39.029 --> 00:23:40.664
- of a black hole, which
632
00:23:41.924 --> 00:23:43.924
- I think we're all familiar with those amazing
633
00:23:43.924 --> 00:23:46.244
- pictures from nearly I think it's nearly a
634
00:23:46.244 --> 00:23:47.305
- decade ago now,
635
00:23:47.924 --> 00:23:50.884
- when when we first started, getting those pictures.
636
00:23:50.884 --> 00:23:53.125
- So yeah. So that that's essentially how it
637
00:23:53.125 --> 00:23:54.664
- all works. You put telescopes
638
00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:58.070
- in places which will give you more information
639
00:23:58.529 --> 00:24:00.769
- about your source, the the object that you
640
00:24:00.769 --> 00:24:03.090
- want to study at the scales that you
641
00:24:03.090 --> 00:24:04.150
- want to study it.
642
00:24:04.769 --> 00:24:07.269
- So, yeah, in terms of the science highlights,
643
00:24:07.890 --> 00:24:08.710
- of emailing,
644
00:24:09.250 --> 00:24:09.750
- so
645
00:24:10.484 --> 00:24:12.085
- there's a whole list of them on our
646
00:24:12.085 --> 00:24:13.144
- website, and,
647
00:24:13.525 --> 00:24:14.884
- you can go and have a look.
648
00:24:15.845 --> 00:24:16.585
- But there's,
649
00:24:17.285 --> 00:24:19.444
- the Lovell Telescope itself has been used, as
650
00:24:19.444 --> 00:24:22.404
- I said earlier, for looking at hundreds of
651
00:24:22.404 --> 00:24:22.904
- pulsars,
652
00:24:24.309 --> 00:24:26.570
- and they can be used for cosmic clocks,
653
00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:30.490
- and for trying to understand things about,
654
00:24:30.950 --> 00:24:31.769
- dark matter.
655
00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:35.269
- So there's lots of stuff that the Lovell
656
00:24:35.269 --> 00:24:36.809
- Telescope can do on its own.
657
00:24:37.294 --> 00:24:39.535
- But when we use e Merlin and connect
658
00:24:39.535 --> 00:24:40.994
- up with other telescopes,
659
00:24:42.095 --> 00:24:44.654
- including the European VLBI network, some of the
660
00:24:44.654 --> 00:24:46.654
- things that we've been doing recently has been,
661
00:24:46.894 --> 00:24:49.315
- looking at at gravitational lenses.
662
00:24:49.615 --> 00:24:49.865
- So,
663
00:24:50.730 --> 00:24:52.970
- these are where you've got an object in
664
00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:54.029
- the distant universe.
665
00:24:55.049 --> 00:24:57.690
- And in between that object and us, there
666
00:24:57.690 --> 00:24:58.190
- is,
667
00:24:58.569 --> 00:25:00.650
- what we call a a dark matter halo.
668
00:25:00.650 --> 00:25:01.950
- So this is this
669
00:25:02.755 --> 00:25:04.994
- mass. We we don't really know what dark
670
00:25:04.994 --> 00:25:08.035
- matter is or how it works, but there
671
00:25:08.035 --> 00:25:10.535
- is this mass which acts as,
672
00:25:11.714 --> 00:25:12.375
- a lens.
673
00:25:13.315 --> 00:25:15.875
- So it bends the light that we see,
674
00:25:15.875 --> 00:25:16.835
- and it creates,
675
00:25:17.369 --> 00:25:20.009
- something called an Einstein ring. So instead of
676
00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:21.849
- seeing a dot in the in the far
677
00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:22.910
- distant universe,
678
00:25:23.529 --> 00:25:26.410
- we see this dot, which is smeared out
679
00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:27.930
- into this sort of, like,
680
00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:31.930
- this, circular pattern. You have little splodges in
681
00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:32.670
- different places,
682
00:25:32.974 --> 00:25:34.914
- but it gets magnified as well.
683
00:25:35.535 --> 00:25:38.335
- And so that allows us to look further
684
00:25:38.335 --> 00:25:38.835
- back,
685
00:25:39.455 --> 00:25:39.955
- into,
686
00:25:41.134 --> 00:25:43.214
- the universe than we would be able to
687
00:25:43.214 --> 00:25:43.714
- otherwise.
688
00:25:44.095 --> 00:25:45.714
- And through doing that, infer
689
00:25:46.095 --> 00:25:48.195
- something about the dark matter distribution
690
00:25:49.269 --> 00:25:50.250
- of the lens,
691
00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:53.029
- the lens in between and something about the
692
00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:54.549
- object in the in the in the in
693
00:25:54.549 --> 00:25:57.349
- the distant universe. So there were some several
694
00:25:57.349 --> 00:25:59.849
- works, that came out earlier this year,
695
00:26:01.190 --> 00:26:01.690
- by,
696
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:02.890
- some colleagues,
697
00:26:04.974 --> 00:26:05.615
- in, so,
698
00:26:06.255 --> 00:26:08.994
- Devin Powell, Christiana Spingler, John McKean,
699
00:26:10.015 --> 00:26:10.914
- Simone Vighetti.
700
00:26:11.775 --> 00:26:13.855
- So there's a series of papers in from
701
00:26:13.855 --> 00:26:14.515
- this group
702
00:26:14.894 --> 00:26:15.394
- who
703
00:26:15.855 --> 00:26:16.994
- looked and found,
704
00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:20.700
- what we thought was what what what seemed
705
00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:21.740
- to be like this,
706
00:26:23.019 --> 00:26:24.319
- million solar mass
707
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:25.279
- object,
708
00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:29.419
- which was didn't make any sense from what
709
00:26:29.419 --> 00:26:31.815
- we've seen before. It was way smaller than
710
00:26:31.815 --> 00:26:33.974
- we expected it to be or they expected
711
00:26:33.974 --> 00:26:35.194
- it to be from simulations,
712
00:26:35.894 --> 00:26:39.015
- and it started bringing into question some dark
713
00:26:39.015 --> 00:26:41.894
- matter theories that have been out there. And
714
00:26:41.894 --> 00:26:44.214
- so it means that we have to do
715
00:26:44.214 --> 00:26:45.434
- more to try and understand
716
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.460
- what dark matter is,
717
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.659
- and gravitational lenses are a particularly good way,
718
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.259
- of doing that.
719
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.900
- For me, I do I do, transient objects.
720
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.140
- So I look at things that go bang,
721
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.474
- a lot of the time. So,
722
00:27:03.414 --> 00:27:05.734
- last year, I was looking through some of
723
00:27:05.734 --> 00:27:08.454
- my data from this nearby galaxy I was
724
00:27:08.454 --> 00:27:09.674
- talking to you about earlier,
725
00:27:09.974 --> 00:27:11.575
- and I found a new source in there
726
00:27:11.575 --> 00:27:13.034
- which we'd never seen before.
727
00:27:13.575 --> 00:27:16.154
- And after looking through some of the records
728
00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:17.470
- and some of the background,
729
00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:19.789
- catalogs,
730
00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:24.330
- I realized it aligned up perfectly with one
731
00:27:24.330 --> 00:27:25.230
- of the best,
732
00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:26.670
- candidate
733
00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:29.450
- black holes we have for being this sort
734
00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:30.670
- of rare intermediate
735
00:27:30.970 --> 00:27:32.109
- class of black hole.
736
00:27:32.464 --> 00:27:33.204
- So we have
737
00:27:33.664 --> 00:27:35.585
- black holes that are about the same size,
738
00:27:35.825 --> 00:27:37.505
- same mass as the sun, and we have
739
00:27:37.505 --> 00:27:40.464
- supermassive black holes, which are at the centers
740
00:27:40.464 --> 00:27:41.845
- of pretty much every galaxy,
741
00:27:42.945 --> 00:27:44.865
- and they're like a million times the mass
742
00:27:44.865 --> 00:27:47.089
- of the sun. But there's this big gap
743
00:27:47.089 --> 00:27:47.750
- in the middle.
744
00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.309
- And this particular source,
745
00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:52.710
- that I found, it was radio emission
746
00:27:53.169 --> 00:27:54.869
- from this particular source,
747
00:27:55.250 --> 00:27:58.630
- and that probably points towards it being a
748
00:27:59.154 --> 00:28:02.115
- black hole even more strongly than we thought
749
00:28:02.115 --> 00:28:03.015
- it was before.
750
00:28:03.795 --> 00:28:05.714
- So there's things like this where we can
751
00:28:05.714 --> 00:28:06.214
- find,
752
00:28:07.394 --> 00:28:08.454
- transient objects,
753
00:28:08.994 --> 00:28:11.414
- especially some of these sort of explosive transients
754
00:28:11.634 --> 00:28:12.454
- like supernovae
755
00:28:12.994 --> 00:28:15.210
- and gamma ray bursts, and and we can
756
00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:17.450
- follow them up and try to understand a
757
00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:20.269
- bit more about this sort of fundamental physics
758
00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:22.990
- that governs sort of the explosions in space,
759
00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:25.390
- which I find quite cool.
760
00:28:27.144 --> 00:28:29.144
- For you personally, these cuts, does that does
761
00:28:29.144 --> 00:28:30.505
- that mean you wouldn't be doing that? You're
762
00:28:30.505 --> 00:28:31.944
- just not doing this kind of thing, but
763
00:28:31.944 --> 00:28:33.484
- you'll be doing something else. Right?
764
00:28:35.545 --> 00:28:37.545
- Yeah. So I would lose my job. That's
765
00:28:37.545 --> 00:28:40.045
- the first thing. My job wouldn't exist anymore.
766
00:28:43.889 --> 00:28:46.389
- I, in theory, could look for another position
767
00:28:46.849 --> 00:28:47.349
- elsewhere,
768
00:28:49.409 --> 00:28:50.069
- but, realistically,
769
00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:56.389
- there aren't that many jobs to go around.
770
00:28:58.095 --> 00:28:58.595
- And,
771
00:29:01.535 --> 00:29:02.914
- certainly not in the academic
772
00:29:03.455 --> 00:29:03.955
- sector.
773
00:29:05.455 --> 00:29:07.615
- And it's not as straightforward as saying, oh,
774
00:29:07.615 --> 00:29:08.914
- well, you know,
775
00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:11.779
- the the the 28 jobs that are at
776
00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:12.840
- risk could find,
777
00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:14.360
- a job,
778
00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:15.960
- at another
779
00:29:16.660 --> 00:29:17.160
- institute
780
00:29:17.539 --> 00:29:18.039
- straightaway
781
00:29:18.420 --> 00:29:19.240
- or at all
782
00:29:19.620 --> 00:29:21.720
- because, you know, these are highly specialized
783
00:29:22.615 --> 00:29:23.115
- roles.
784
00:29:23.974 --> 00:29:25.434
- People know these telescopes
785
00:29:25.734 --> 00:29:26.714
- inside and out.
786
00:29:28.615 --> 00:29:30.694
- And then it we we, you know, we
787
00:29:30.694 --> 00:29:33.015
- train and we learn, and then quite often
788
00:29:33.015 --> 00:29:35.174
- people do eventually move on to other places,
789
00:29:35.174 --> 00:29:38.230
- but that might be moving abroad, for example.
790
00:29:39.090 --> 00:29:41.090
- It's not as simple as saying, oh, well,
791
00:29:41.090 --> 00:29:42.390
- we can get another job
792
00:29:42.849 --> 00:29:43.349
- elsewhere.
793
00:29:44.690 --> 00:29:47.090
- So, yeah, for for me, it would probably
794
00:29:47.090 --> 00:29:47.590
- mean,
795
00:29:48.930 --> 00:29:50.150
- leaving academia
796
00:29:50.690 --> 00:29:51.190
- entirely.
797
00:29:52.875 --> 00:29:54.414
- I don't know what I would do,
798
00:29:55.434 --> 00:29:56.894
- because I have been
799
00:29:57.355 --> 00:29:58.654
- an academic since
800
00:29:59.115 --> 00:30:00.494
- I've gone straight through undergraduate,
801
00:30:02.474 --> 00:30:02.974
- PhD
802
00:30:03.355 --> 00:30:05.214
- postdoc, and now here as a
803
00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:07.519
- operation scientist.
804
00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:09.600
- So for me, I don't know,
805
00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:12.940
- at the moment where that would where I
806
00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:13.600
- would go.
807
00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:15.840
- For professor Simon Garrrington,
808
00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:18.860
- not only is his job at risk, but
809
00:30:18.860 --> 00:30:21.525
- he is in the position of leading the
810
00:30:21.525 --> 00:30:23.944
- group. Oh, we were we were all devastated
811
00:30:24.644 --> 00:30:25.545
- by this news.
812
00:30:26.484 --> 00:30:27.684
- You know, and I had to break the
813
00:30:27.684 --> 00:30:28.585
- news to
814
00:30:28.964 --> 00:30:29.944
- in this room,
815
00:30:30.244 --> 00:30:31.625
- to our whole team,
816
00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:35.480
- and they and it was just, silence, really.
817
00:30:37.220 --> 00:30:38.980
- They many, you know, yes, the the the
818
00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.539
- there certainly are early career scientists in that
819
00:30:41.539 --> 00:30:44.039
- group and there's, you know, a very significant
820
00:30:44.625 --> 00:30:45.125
- portion
821
00:30:45.585 --> 00:30:48.065
- of our users of emailing are early career
822
00:30:48.065 --> 00:30:48.565
- scientists.
823
00:30:49.105 --> 00:30:50.865
- But there's also people in our team who
824
00:30:50.865 --> 00:30:54.325
- have dedicated their entire lives and careers to,
825
00:30:55.025 --> 00:30:58.085
- maintaining and and operating emailing. So
826
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:01.559
- it's it's true that they have you know,
827
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.119
- emailing has always been funded in a somewhat
828
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:05.579
- precarious way through,
829
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.000
- short term short term grants and contracts from
830
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:12.440
- SDFC. That's just the way, SDFC operates these
831
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.494
- sort of projects, But it all has always
832
00:31:14.494 --> 00:31:15.315
- been on
833
00:31:15.775 --> 00:31:16.515
- the understanding
834
00:31:16.894 --> 00:31:19.634
- that that we are doing excellent science
835
00:31:20.095 --> 00:31:22.034
- and would continue to do so
836
00:31:22.494 --> 00:31:23.954
- so long as we remain
837
00:31:24.734 --> 00:31:25.484
- a unique
838
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:26.420
- capability.
839
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.039
- And I think that is absolutely the case.
840
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:30.720
- You know, we know that the messaging coming
841
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:31.380
- from SDFC
842
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.559
- UKRI is that the priority is the square
843
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.539
- kilometer rate
844
00:31:35.840 --> 00:31:38.980
- being built now in South Africa and Australia.
845
00:31:40.164 --> 00:31:43.525
- But eMerlin still is completely complementary to the
846
00:31:43.525 --> 00:31:45.525
- array of dishes that's being built in South
847
00:31:45.525 --> 00:31:48.644
- Africa. That that array of dishes, as currently
848
00:31:48.644 --> 00:31:52.025
- funded, will only span 40 kilometers, whereas EMerlin
849
00:31:52.085 --> 00:31:53.365
- is 220
850
00:31:53.365 --> 00:31:55.910
- kilometers. And that immediately tells you from this
851
00:31:55.910 --> 00:31:58.009
- lambda over d that that,
852
00:31:58.549 --> 00:32:00.869
- e Merlin will deliver at least five times
853
00:32:00.869 --> 00:32:01.529
- the resolution
854
00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:02.730
- of
855
00:32:03.029 --> 00:32:05.509
- the the array of telescopes in SKA South
856
00:32:05.509 --> 00:32:06.009
- Africa.
857
00:32:06.505 --> 00:32:09.085
- And that's important. You know, resolution matters
858
00:32:09.384 --> 00:32:11.144
- in astronomy. If you want to see the
859
00:32:11.144 --> 00:32:13.625
- details of what's going on, you need sharper
860
00:32:13.625 --> 00:32:15.005
- images, you need resolution.
861
00:32:15.625 --> 00:32:17.005
- EMerlin is the only,
862
00:32:17.544 --> 00:32:19.380
- telescope in the world at the moment that
863
00:32:19.700 --> 00:32:20.200
- delivers
864
00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:21.000
- radio
865
00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.859
- images at centimeter wavelengths, which have the same
866
00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:26.839
- level of detail as Hubble Space Telescope
867
00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:30.259
- or James Webb Space Telescope images in the
868
00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:33.315
- optical and infrared. And we know how those
869
00:32:33.315 --> 00:32:34.934
- those telescopes revolutionized
870
00:32:35.875 --> 00:32:38.134
- astronomy by having those sharp images,
871
00:32:38.515 --> 00:32:40.615
- and that's what e Merlin delivers. So
872
00:32:40.994 --> 00:32:43.154
- so we want we want and I think
873
00:32:43.154 --> 00:32:44.694
- UK scientists need
874
00:32:45.154 --> 00:32:48.119
- both the square kilometer array and e Merlin,
875
00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:51.640
- not just as complimentary in instruments.
876
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:55.539
- SKA is designed for surveys of millions of
877
00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:58.019
- objects. E Merlin is designed to zoom in
878
00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.320
- to individual objects.
879
00:32:59.984 --> 00:33:02.625
- But in future, once SKA is built, it
880
00:33:02.625 --> 00:33:03.924
- will link up with telescopes
881
00:33:04.384 --> 00:33:05.285
- across Europe
882
00:33:05.904 --> 00:33:09.605
- in Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Poland, Latvia.
883
00:33:10.545 --> 00:33:12.884
- And to not be able to add
884
00:33:13.330 --> 00:33:16.289
- the level telescope right outside here to that
885
00:33:16.289 --> 00:33:18.850
- global array would be tragic. So we've got
886
00:33:18.850 --> 00:33:19.750
- the, the headquarters
887
00:33:20.369 --> 00:33:22.690
- of the square kilometer array, right next to
888
00:33:22.690 --> 00:33:24.289
- me here, and they can look out of
889
00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:26.230
- their windows and look at the level telescope
890
00:33:26.904 --> 00:33:29.944
- Surely, to have that participating in this global
891
00:33:29.944 --> 00:33:33.005
- array, including the SKA would is is is
892
00:33:33.224 --> 00:33:35.065
- what what we should all want. I think
893
00:33:35.065 --> 00:33:37.865
- to to lose that opportunity would be would
894
00:33:37.865 --> 00:33:38.549
- be tragic.
895
00:33:39.110 --> 00:33:40.470
- Well, I mean I mean, it seems to
896
00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:42.789
- me that you if there's you probably couldn't
897
00:33:42.789 --> 00:33:45.029
- find a radio astronomer. It'd be difficult to
898
00:33:45.029 --> 00:33:47.029
- find a radio astronomer anywhere in the world
899
00:33:47.029 --> 00:33:49.190
- who wouldn't want to be using the Lovell
900
00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:52.365
- Telescope at some in some aspect. But the
901
00:33:52.845 --> 00:33:54.305
- presumably, the people at the SDFC
902
00:33:54.924 --> 00:33:57.644
- know this and have made this decision anyway.
903
00:33:57.644 --> 00:33:59.724
- So what what is the justification that you've
904
00:33:59.724 --> 00:34:00.384
- been given
905
00:34:00.765 --> 00:34:02.704
- in terms of why these cuts are necessary,
906
00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:03.744
- why this is happening?
907
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.259
- Well, we understand why the cuts are necessary,
908
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.599
- and and that has been well reported already.
909
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:12.639
- That's the that that SDFC's funding is being
910
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:15.039
- held flat in in cash terms and that
911
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.820
- there are pressures of
912
00:34:17.804 --> 00:34:19.025
- international subscriptions,
913
00:34:19.405 --> 00:34:22.704
- energy costs and projects that have been started
914
00:34:22.764 --> 00:34:24.605
- that, that increase the pressure on their program.
915
00:34:24.605 --> 00:34:26.625
- So we know roughly why
916
00:34:27.005 --> 00:34:28.625
- SGFC had to find
917
00:34:30.140 --> 00:34:31.760
- a total amount of
918
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:34.880
- what has been reported of order 700,000,000.
919
00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:37.579
- So so at least a 160,000,000
920
00:34:37.579 --> 00:34:39.579
- per year by the end of the the
921
00:34:39.579 --> 00:34:41.360
- current spending review period.
922
00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:43.519
- And so they carried out a prioritization
923
00:34:44.140 --> 00:34:45.644
- exercise across their
924
00:34:46.045 --> 00:34:46.625
- their projects.
925
00:34:47.804 --> 00:34:51.025
- And we haven't been given the details of
926
00:34:51.405 --> 00:34:53.724
- of that outcome. What we've been told is
927
00:34:53.724 --> 00:34:55.265
- we will get zero funding.
928
00:34:57.085 --> 00:34:58.304
- And some of the
929
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.860
- reporting that we've seen then statements from ministers
930
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.699
- and SDFC UKRI is that the priority is
931
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.180
- is the square kilometer array.
932
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.519
- And that is understandable. That's that's the that's
933
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:12.739
- the future experiment,
934
00:35:15.035 --> 00:35:17.375
- and we understand why that should should,
935
00:35:18.474 --> 00:35:19.934
- be high in their minds.
936
00:35:21.275 --> 00:35:22.255
- But to me,
937
00:35:22.954 --> 00:35:25.215
- to do that at the complete expense
938
00:35:25.515 --> 00:35:27.055
- of a national capability,
939
00:35:28.155 --> 00:35:31.650
- which we operate for only 1% of the
940
00:35:31.650 --> 00:35:33.110
- operating cost of SKA.
941
00:35:36.449 --> 00:35:38.309
- Makes less sense to me personally,
942
00:35:39.329 --> 00:35:41.890
- and to our colleagues as you've suggested. And
943
00:35:41.890 --> 00:35:42.789
- and I think,
944
00:35:43.355 --> 00:35:44.695
- that, you know, there are,
945
00:35:45.715 --> 00:35:47.315
- there are a whole range of factors which
946
00:35:47.315 --> 00:35:49.335
- need to be taken into account.
947
00:35:49.795 --> 00:35:52.114
- We understand there's, you know, the the process
948
00:35:52.114 --> 00:35:54.535
- that science board went to went through,
949
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.440
- Not clear to me yet whether all the
950
00:35:57.440 --> 00:35:57.940
- factors,
951
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.039
- have been taken into account, including the, you
952
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:02.319
- know, the use of the dish, which we've
953
00:36:02.319 --> 00:36:02.819
- demonstrated
954
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:05.940
- for space situation awareness. So that's looking at
955
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:06.900
- space debris,
956
00:36:07.839 --> 00:36:09.380
- potentially threats in orbit,
957
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:11.139
- because this dish,
958
00:36:11.894 --> 00:36:13.914
- in front of me now makes a superb
959
00:36:13.974 --> 00:36:16.155
- radar receiver. We don't transmit.
960
00:36:17.175 --> 00:36:18.155
- We organize,
961
00:36:19.094 --> 00:36:21.594
- observations with other radars transmitting.
962
00:36:22.535 --> 00:36:24.699
- So for example, we work with one of
963
00:36:24.699 --> 00:36:26.880
- the most powerful space radars in The US.
964
00:36:27.099 --> 00:36:30.059
- They transmit. We receive the echo. And because
965
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:32.300
- of the size and sensitivity of of this
966
00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:33.119
- dish alone,
967
00:36:33.579 --> 00:36:34.480
- that multiplies
968
00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:37.199
- that really multiplies the power of that transmitter
969
00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:39.099
- by a factor of 30, which is a
970
00:36:39.099 --> 00:36:39.599
- huge
971
00:36:40.244 --> 00:36:42.804
- benefit if you're trying to see small objects
972
00:36:42.804 --> 00:36:44.664
- in g in geostationary orbit
973
00:36:45.045 --> 00:36:46.164
- at 36,000
974
00:36:46.164 --> 00:36:47.384
- kilometers or more.
975
00:36:48.085 --> 00:36:50.164
- And then we can use e merlin as
976
00:36:50.164 --> 00:36:52.105
- an array for those type of observations
977
00:36:52.644 --> 00:36:54.505
- as well and potentially measure,
978
00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:57.659
- you know, do orbit determination measures the positions
979
00:36:57.659 --> 00:36:59.760
- of those objects in three d in space.
980
00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:02.300
- And so there's a huge number of additional
981
00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:04.800
- factors, I think, that that that that
982
00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:07.179
- that should be looked at in the round.
983
00:37:07.179 --> 00:37:09.420
- You know, we've we've we've seen the the
984
00:37:09.420 --> 00:37:10.559
- the public reaction,
985
00:37:11.045 --> 00:37:12.184
- which is not just
986
00:37:12.805 --> 00:37:15.525
- sentimental because of their their attachment to this
987
00:37:15.525 --> 00:37:17.465
- telescope. I think they are saying that
988
00:37:18.485 --> 00:37:20.644
- that that this is the kind of science
989
00:37:20.644 --> 00:37:22.164
- they want to see being done in The
990
00:37:22.164 --> 00:37:24.239
- UK. Of course, the public want want The
991
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.579
- UK to be part of these very prestigious
992
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:29.280
- international projects, but it's kind of about the
993
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:30.260
- balance between
994
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.139
- the big international things and the national capabilities.
995
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:35.780
- And, you know, I find
996
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:38.000
- the world as it is at the moment
997
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:38.500
- quite
998
00:37:38.925 --> 00:37:41.565
- upsetting. You know, depressing is probably a stronger
999
00:37:41.565 --> 00:37:43.965
- word for it. And when I read about,
1000
00:37:43.965 --> 00:37:44.785
- hear about,
1001
00:37:45.244 --> 00:37:48.065
- listen to people talking about things like gravitational
1002
00:37:48.125 --> 00:37:50.224
- lensing, things like radio astronomy,
1003
00:37:50.684 --> 00:37:54.179
- it's an escapism like unlike anything else. It
1004
00:37:54.179 --> 00:37:56.599
- takes me out of the day to day.
1005
00:37:57.219 --> 00:38:00.039
- Is that all that this is for people?
1006
00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:03.699
- Is it for most people? Is the the
1007
00:38:03.699 --> 00:38:06.039
- discoveries that you're finding here escapism,
1008
00:38:08.065 --> 00:38:08.565
- intrigue,
1009
00:38:08.864 --> 00:38:11.605
- what what what's the purpose of doing this
1010
00:38:13.664 --> 00:38:15.045
- for the general public?
1011
00:38:15.824 --> 00:38:17.765
- I think the general public want to
1012
00:38:19.025 --> 00:38:20.804
- understand how the universe works,
1013
00:38:21.489 --> 00:38:23.489
- understand how we got from the big bang
1014
00:38:23.489 --> 00:38:23.989
- to
1015
00:38:24.289 --> 00:38:25.989
- to to to life on earth.
1016
00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:28.630
- And to do that, you need to understand
1017
00:38:28.769 --> 00:38:31.269
- every part of the evolution of the universe
1018
00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:34.210
- and how how galaxies form, how stars form
1019
00:38:34.210 --> 00:38:35.590
- in galaxies, how planets
1020
00:38:36.364 --> 00:38:37.744
- form around stars.
1021
00:38:38.045 --> 00:38:39.264
- And radio astronomy
1022
00:38:40.444 --> 00:38:42.204
- can play a huge part in all of
1023
00:38:42.204 --> 00:38:43.025
- those questions.
1024
00:38:43.324 --> 00:38:44.784
- We can literally see
1025
00:38:45.244 --> 00:38:48.519
- the material forming planets around new stars. You
1026
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:51.340
- know, that is sent those are centimeter sized
1027
00:38:51.640 --> 00:38:54.220
- pebbles, which which are going to
1028
00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:57.500
- come together to to form boulders, to form
1029
00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:58.059
- planetesimals,
1030
00:38:58.519 --> 00:38:59.500
- to form planets.
1031
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:01.340
- And we can see that
1032
00:39:02.154 --> 00:39:03.054
- that material
1033
00:39:03.674 --> 00:39:03.994
- using,
1034
00:39:04.714 --> 00:39:06.894
- arrays of radio telescopes like e muddling.
1035
00:39:07.355 --> 00:39:09.594
- People want to understand them. I think, you
1036
00:39:09.594 --> 00:39:10.094
- know,
1037
00:39:10.474 --> 00:39:12.094
- astronomy is a huge
1038
00:39:12.714 --> 00:39:15.454
- draw for for people in understanding the universe
1039
00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:18.849
- and they're also inspiring them into into careers
1040
00:39:18.989 --> 00:39:20.449
- in in science and technology.
1041
00:39:21.469 --> 00:39:23.069
- But the so you've mentioned the,
1042
00:39:24.989 --> 00:39:27.730
- the the the affection that people have for
1043
00:39:28.029 --> 00:39:30.690
- Lovell, particularly, the Lovell Telescope, particularly.
1044
00:39:30.989 --> 00:39:31.489
- And,
1045
00:39:32.164 --> 00:39:33.445
- because I think I think it's more than
1046
00:39:33.445 --> 00:39:34.965
- affection. I know that there is an element
1047
00:39:34.965 --> 00:39:37.545
- of that. And, part of that is,
1048
00:39:39.364 --> 00:39:40.664
- is a sense of wonder.
1049
00:39:41.844 --> 00:39:44.965
- It's the it's a symbol of ambition in
1050
00:39:44.965 --> 00:39:46.344
- science and engineering.
1051
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:48.859
- It's a demonstration
1052
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.280
- that, something, you know, that we can have
1053
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:54.539
- this capability right here in The UK
1054
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:56.039
- that that,
1055
00:39:56.599 --> 00:39:59.400
- visitors come and stand behind the telescope looking
1056
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.460
- out into space
1057
00:40:00.945 --> 00:40:02.945
- and know that it is doing world class
1058
00:40:02.945 --> 00:40:04.164
- science right now.
1059
00:40:04.945 --> 00:40:06.864
- And that's different from coming just to see
1060
00:40:06.864 --> 00:40:08.164
- a monument to what
1061
00:40:08.545 --> 00:40:10.704
- Britain may have achieved in the nineteen fifties
1062
00:40:10.704 --> 00:40:11.364
- and sixties.
1063
00:40:11.744 --> 00:40:13.765
- To to there's very few,
1064
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.619
- you know, big science capabilities,
1065
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.199
- that, that many people can get to. Yes.
1066
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:21.960
- There's, there's a great new visitor center at
1067
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:23.659
- CERN and people can go there.
1068
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:25.640
- But to have something at the sort of
1069
00:40:25.640 --> 00:40:27.640
- regional and national level that people here in
1070
00:40:27.640 --> 00:40:28.300
- The UK,
1071
00:40:29.074 --> 00:40:31.474
- can come come and feel a part of
1072
00:40:31.474 --> 00:40:32.835
- when they come here. I think they feel
1073
00:40:32.835 --> 00:40:34.835
- that in their, you know, quite viscerally in
1074
00:40:34.835 --> 00:40:36.755
- their in their hearts that they've come to
1075
00:40:36.755 --> 00:40:39.394
- somewhere that is doing real science, not not
1076
00:40:39.394 --> 00:40:41.840
- not just a monument to one to our
1077
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:42.559
- ambition of,
1078
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.280
- of decades ago. Yeah. Yeah. No. I can
1079
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.360
- totally testify to that. That is exactly how
1080
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.059
- I feel when I come to Jobdwell and
1081
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:50.960
- I, you know, I miss it because I'm
1082
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:52.800
- down in the Southwest now, and it's not
1083
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:53.860
- not on my horizon,
1084
00:40:54.744 --> 00:40:56.824
- anymore. But is my question was gonna be,
1085
00:40:56.824 --> 00:40:59.565
- do is there something you can do to,
1086
00:41:00.184 --> 00:41:02.264
- you know, in your position of leadership and
1087
00:41:02.264 --> 00:41:04.264
- the the the other people involved in that,
1088
00:41:04.264 --> 00:41:07.144
- are you doing things that can capitalize on
1089
00:41:07.144 --> 00:41:07.644
- that
1090
00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:09.880
- love for
1091
00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:13.140
- not only the the telescope itself, but as
1092
00:41:13.140 --> 00:41:14.820
- you say, the science it's doing that's in
1093
00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:16.340
- the public? Is there some way that you
1094
00:41:16.340 --> 00:41:16.840
- can,
1095
00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:19.940
- mobilize that to help you with the situation
1096
00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:22.144
- you find yourself. We're certainly trying, and you've
1097
00:41:22.144 --> 00:41:24.485
- seen there's been letters from hundreds of,
1098
00:41:25.744 --> 00:41:26.565
- public figures,
1099
00:41:27.585 --> 00:41:28.405
- whether that's,
1100
00:41:28.704 --> 00:41:31.425
- in in culture or or now scientists. So
1101
00:41:31.425 --> 00:41:33.445
- just, yesterday published on
1102
00:41:33.789 --> 00:41:36.029
- our web pages a whole number of letters
1103
00:41:36.029 --> 00:41:38.190
- of support from from scientists around the world,
1104
00:41:38.190 --> 00:41:39.809
- directors observe of observatories.
1105
00:41:40.429 --> 00:41:43.230
- So that is this has really helped to
1106
00:41:43.230 --> 00:41:44.369
- mobilize support.
1107
00:41:44.989 --> 00:41:46.529
- We have many MPs,
1108
00:41:47.925 --> 00:41:49.765
- who have written to secretary of state and
1109
00:41:49.765 --> 00:41:50.664
- the science ministers
1110
00:41:50.965 --> 00:41:53.465
- to express their concern about this decision.
1111
00:41:55.125 --> 00:41:57.765
- We're hoping that that this may, you know,
1112
00:41:57.765 --> 00:41:59.925
- reach the the ears of people who may
1113
00:41:59.925 --> 00:42:01.864
- be in a position to to make financial
1114
00:42:01.925 --> 00:42:04.179
- contributions as individuals, for example.
1115
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:05.139
- So,
1116
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.380
- you know, perhaps our future will involve combinations
1117
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:10.980
- of all of those things.
1118
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:13.519
- It may be a different funding mix from
1119
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.359
- from what we've had in the past, but
1120
00:42:15.359 --> 00:42:16.659
- but, you know, we're
1121
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:17.460
- we're
1122
00:42:18.785 --> 00:42:20.945
- doing as much as we possibly can to,
1123
00:42:20.945 --> 00:42:22.945
- to secure a future for,
1124
00:42:23.265 --> 00:42:26.164
- this observatory and our telescopes on our network,
1125
00:42:26.865 --> 00:42:29.045
- through whichever means we can. And,
1126
00:42:30.110 --> 00:42:32.670
- this the the the demonstration of public and
1127
00:42:32.670 --> 00:42:35.090
- scientific and cultural and political support
1128
00:42:36.510 --> 00:42:38.130
- certainly helps us to do that,
1129
00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:39.489
- you know, reassures,
1130
00:42:40.190 --> 00:42:42.690
- me and and our staff that that that
1131
00:42:43.505 --> 00:42:45.605
- this is a much wanted and needed
1132
00:42:46.065 --> 00:42:48.244
- capability. And I and I hope that,
1133
00:42:49.505 --> 00:42:51.905
- between government and the University of Manchester and
1134
00:42:51.905 --> 00:42:53.985
- and our various stakeholders, we can find a
1135
00:42:53.985 --> 00:42:54.885
- way through this.
1136
00:42:55.579 --> 00:42:57.260
- There are other people who've lost their funding.
1137
00:42:57.260 --> 00:42:59.019
- Physics based things, science based things that have
1138
00:42:59.019 --> 00:42:59.840
- lost their funding.
1139
00:43:00.140 --> 00:43:01.440
- And and I think
1140
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:04.059
- from some conversations that I've had, there's a
1141
00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:05.280
- there's a sort of,
1142
00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:08.860
- jealousy. I would possibly is the wrong word,
1143
00:43:08.860 --> 00:43:11.644
- but the people are frustrated that Jodro Bay
1144
00:43:11.644 --> 00:43:12.704
- is getting all the,
1145
00:43:13.164 --> 00:43:13.905
- the publicity
1146
00:43:14.364 --> 00:43:16.445
- about it. Well, I I hope they're not
1147
00:43:16.445 --> 00:43:16.945
- frustrated.
1148
00:43:17.565 --> 00:43:18.764
- I you know, we we've been
1149
00:43:19.644 --> 00:43:22.125
- we've taken, you know, almost every opportunity we
1150
00:43:22.125 --> 00:43:24.125
- can to say that this is an example
1151
00:43:24.125 --> 00:43:26.570
- of of cuts to this particular area of
1152
00:43:26.570 --> 00:43:29.550
- physics, particle physics, astronomy, and nuclear physics.
1153
00:43:30.329 --> 00:43:32.170
- And and, okay, we we are a visible
1154
00:43:32.170 --> 00:43:32.670
- symbol,
1155
00:43:33.849 --> 00:43:35.309
- but I think we can help
1156
00:43:35.769 --> 00:43:36.269
- everybody
1157
00:43:36.730 --> 00:43:38.925
- in this area of physics, and we we
1158
00:43:38.925 --> 00:43:40.704
- want to find a way to do that.
1159
00:43:41.164 --> 00:43:42.765
- You know, we don't we don't want we
1160
00:43:42.765 --> 00:43:45.025
- want we we don't want to increase our
1161
00:43:45.085 --> 00:43:47.164
- slice of the cake at the expense of
1162
00:43:47.164 --> 00:43:49.664
- others. We we we want the
1163
00:43:50.125 --> 00:43:51.905
- size of the whole cake to be increased,
1164
00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:54.949
- and we want we we would we we
1165
00:43:54.949 --> 00:43:56.809
- feel for everybody in this area,
1166
00:43:57.190 --> 00:44:00.230
- whether they're at SDFC facilities or other projects
1167
00:44:00.230 --> 00:44:01.289
- that are being cut,
1168
00:44:03.349 --> 00:44:04.150
- because this
1169
00:44:06.014 --> 00:44:09.054
- important aspects of of the physics that we
1170
00:44:09.054 --> 00:44:09.795
- do. And
1171
00:44:10.414 --> 00:44:11.934
- and we want to see how can we
1172
00:44:11.934 --> 00:44:12.675
- use the
1173
00:44:13.855 --> 00:44:15.855
- public visibility and support,
1174
00:44:16.815 --> 00:44:19.534
- for us to to support this whole area
1175
00:44:19.534 --> 00:44:20.194
- of physics.
1176
00:44:21.609 --> 00:44:24.349
- I put that same question to doctor David
1177
00:44:24.409 --> 00:44:25.389
- Williams Baldwin.
1178
00:44:26.889 --> 00:44:27.389
- I
1179
00:44:28.329 --> 00:44:30.570
- so we should say that George Webb is
1180
00:44:30.570 --> 00:44:31.070
- probably
1181
00:44:33.094 --> 00:44:34.714
- and any Merlin has probably
1182
00:44:35.094 --> 00:44:37.574
- become the focus of some of the,
1183
00:44:39.255 --> 00:44:41.194
- media focus in in recent,
1184
00:44:41.494 --> 00:44:41.994
- weeks.
1185
00:44:42.534 --> 00:44:44.694
- But you're absolutely right to point out that
1186
00:44:44.694 --> 00:44:45.994
- this isn't just affecting,
1187
00:44:47.174 --> 00:44:47.914
- us here.
1188
00:44:48.530 --> 00:44:50.309
- So there have been cuts to,
1189
00:44:50.769 --> 00:44:52.630
- for example, the Dalesbury lab,
1190
00:44:53.489 --> 00:44:54.710
- the Bowlby mine,
1191
00:44:55.329 --> 00:44:55.989
- the LHCb
1192
00:44:57.329 --> 00:44:59.750
- upgrade. There are further cuts, to
1193
00:45:00.050 --> 00:45:01.030
- various different,
1194
00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:02.070
- astronomy
1195
00:45:02.849 --> 00:45:03.349
- programs,
1196
00:45:04.385 --> 00:45:06.484
- particle physics and nuclear programs
1197
00:45:07.105 --> 00:45:08.324
- up and down the country.
1198
00:45:10.864 --> 00:45:12.644
- These are all highly skilled people,
1199
00:45:13.664 --> 00:45:16.304
- and it will mean job losses in this
1200
00:45:16.304 --> 00:45:16.804
- sector.
1201
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.260
- This sector
1202
00:45:20.640 --> 00:45:21.140
- provides
1203
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.539
- a huge amount of training
1204
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.699
- for to, you know, train
1205
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.480
- masters and PhD students and postdocs in very,
1206
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.420
- very technical skills, which,
1207
00:45:33.244 --> 00:45:35.505
- then move on into other areas.
1208
00:45:35.885 --> 00:45:37.885
- So I have a colleague who I worked
1209
00:45:37.885 --> 00:45:39.405
- with when I was doing my PhD in
1210
00:45:39.405 --> 00:45:39.905
- Southampton.
1211
00:45:40.605 --> 00:45:42.925
- He, now works for a bank in in
1212
00:45:42.925 --> 00:45:43.585
- the city.
1213
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:47.099
- I have other colleagues that have gone on
1214
00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:50.139
- to work for defense firms. I know other
1215
00:45:50.139 --> 00:45:52.059
- colleagues that have moved on to become data
1216
00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:52.559
- scientists.
1217
00:45:54.539 --> 00:45:56.699
- There are there is a there's not a
1218
00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:58.994
- a pool, a a huge pool of jobs
1219
00:45:58.994 --> 00:46:00.535
- in academia anyway.
1220
00:46:02.515 --> 00:46:04.615
- So quite often, a large number of these,
1221
00:46:05.155 --> 00:46:08.454
- early career researchers, the masters, the PhD students,
1222
00:46:08.755 --> 00:46:11.175
- will go on to then take those skills
1223
00:46:11.510 --> 00:46:13.269
- and move elsewhere. And I think one of
1224
00:46:13.269 --> 00:46:15.210
- the things that we worry about is
1225
00:46:16.230 --> 00:46:18.809
- even if, you know, we still continue,
1226
00:46:19.909 --> 00:46:22.230
- funding these early career researchers, and I should
1227
00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:24.150
- say the the cuts have that have been
1228
00:46:24.150 --> 00:46:25.130
- announced have
1229
00:46:26.135 --> 00:46:28.394
- kept the early career researcher levels
1230
00:46:29.014 --> 00:46:31.335
- flat compared to what it was a year
1231
00:46:31.335 --> 00:46:33.335
- or so ago, but they are still record
1232
00:46:33.335 --> 00:46:34.074
- low levels,
1233
00:46:35.014 --> 00:46:36.875
- compared to what they have been,
1234
00:46:37.175 --> 00:46:37.994
- in the past.
1235
00:46:38.469 --> 00:46:40.630
- But even if we were to continue funding
1236
00:46:40.630 --> 00:46:42.010
- these early career researchers,
1237
00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:44.489
- if we don't have those infrastructures
1238
00:46:44.869 --> 00:46:48.410
- across particle physics, across astronomy, across nuclear
1239
00:46:48.789 --> 00:46:49.289
- that,
1240
00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:52.329
- can actually develop these people,
1241
00:46:52.869 --> 00:46:53.769
- train them,
1242
00:46:54.525 --> 00:46:57.005
- then you're not going to have those highly
1243
00:46:57.005 --> 00:46:58.464
- qualified, highly skilled
1244
00:46:59.085 --> 00:46:59.585
- engineers,
1245
00:47:01.164 --> 00:47:01.664
- technicians,
1246
00:47:03.005 --> 00:47:04.065
- support scientists,
1247
00:47:04.364 --> 00:47:04.864
- operators
1248
00:47:05.724 --> 00:47:08.125
- that can then go out and use their
1249
00:47:08.125 --> 00:47:09.424
- skills in other ways.
1250
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:12.420
- And I think I think one thing that
1251
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:13.800
- we should say is that
1252
00:47:16.099 --> 00:47:18.420
- or I think there there's various different numbers
1253
00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:20.260
- out there, but I think for something like
1254
00:47:20.260 --> 00:47:23.640
- every pound that is invested in this area,
1255
00:47:23.885 --> 00:47:25.344
- this PPAM sector,
1256
00:47:25.964 --> 00:47:29.324
- something like 5 to £7 worth of recut
1257
00:47:29.405 --> 00:47:32.464
- return comes back into the public pocket. Right?
1258
00:47:32.764 --> 00:47:33.264
- So
1259
00:47:34.764 --> 00:47:35.585
- these cuts,
1260
00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:38.880
- although they might seem, you know,
1261
00:47:39.180 --> 00:47:42.160
- small like 20% here or something there,
1262
00:47:42.940 --> 00:47:45.199
- to some people, these will have
1263
00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:47.840
- a big effect
1264
00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:48.719
- on
1265
00:47:49.194 --> 00:47:50.174
- the next generation
1266
00:47:50.474 --> 00:47:51.295
- of scientists
1267
00:47:51.594 --> 00:47:52.734
- and, subsequently,
1268
00:47:53.755 --> 00:47:56.635
- the the young people and the early career
1269
00:47:56.635 --> 00:47:57.135
- researchers
1270
00:47:57.514 --> 00:47:59.694
- that will then become those highly developed,
1271
00:48:00.074 --> 00:48:03.214
- highly skilled individuals that go out into industry
1272
00:48:03.355 --> 00:48:04.174
- and do
1273
00:48:04.619 --> 00:48:05.359
- amazing things.
1274
00:48:06.460 --> 00:48:08.699
- The funding is still in place at least
1275
00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:10.480
- until 2028.
1276
00:48:10.539 --> 00:48:12.559
- So I wanted to know what the focus
1277
00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:15.179
- of the work up until that point will
1278
00:48:15.179 --> 00:48:15.679
- be.
1279
00:48:16.625 --> 00:48:18.464
- Certainly, we, you know, we're we're open for
1280
00:48:18.464 --> 00:48:18.964
- business.
1281
00:48:19.664 --> 00:48:21.744
- We've just had a call for proposals. That
1282
00:48:21.744 --> 00:48:23.744
- was the largest number of proposals that we've
1283
00:48:23.744 --> 00:48:24.484
- ever had.
1284
00:48:25.264 --> 00:48:27.344
- So we'll be doing those proposals. We do
1285
00:48:27.344 --> 00:48:29.505
- those calls every six months. So we'll continue
1286
00:48:29.505 --> 00:48:30.244
- to do those,
1287
00:48:30.690 --> 00:48:31.190
- continue
1288
00:48:31.730 --> 00:48:33.650
- to to do the best science that we
1289
00:48:33.650 --> 00:48:34.630
- possibly can,
1290
00:48:35.570 --> 00:48:37.030
- for as long as we can.
1291
00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:41.589
- We have very significant ambitions for the future,
1292
00:48:42.449 --> 00:48:44.769
- and we have we have a project called
1293
00:48:44.769 --> 00:48:45.269
- Razer,
1294
00:48:46.635 --> 00:48:48.494
- which would add another dozen
1295
00:48:48.954 --> 00:48:50.894
- antennas to our to eMerlin,
1296
00:48:51.434 --> 00:48:53.835
- stretching right up in Scotland and down down
1297
00:48:53.835 --> 00:48:55.994
- to the South and cross into Wales, perhaps
1298
00:48:55.994 --> 00:48:57.135
- even Northern Ireland
1299
00:48:57.515 --> 00:48:59.994
- to to make an array which covers the
1300
00:48:59.994 --> 00:49:01.909
- entirety of The UK.
1301
00:49:02.609 --> 00:49:04.929
- And that would be a very powerful facility
1302
00:49:04.929 --> 00:49:05.989
- for radio astronomy,
1303
00:49:06.929 --> 00:49:09.889
- for space situation awareness, and for space weather
1304
00:49:09.889 --> 00:49:12.530
- monitoring. So it would include incorporate some low
1305
00:49:12.530 --> 00:49:14.144
- frequency antennas as well.
1306
00:49:14.864 --> 00:49:16.545
- So that was a project that was fully
1307
00:49:16.545 --> 00:49:17.284
- worked up,
1308
00:49:18.144 --> 00:49:18.644
- was,
1309
00:49:19.184 --> 00:49:22.885
- submitted to SDFC for UKRI infrastructure funding
1310
00:49:23.265 --> 00:49:24.885
- a year and a half or so ago.
1311
00:49:25.184 --> 00:49:27.980
- And that project was rated by every single
1312
00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:29.199
- panel in SDFC
1313
00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:32.239
- as their number one priority for future funding
1314
00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:35.119
- just before this funding crisis hit.
1315
00:49:35.659 --> 00:49:38.239
- So we've got very well laid out ambitions,
1316
00:49:39.994 --> 00:49:41.215
- to continue doing
1317
00:49:41.755 --> 00:49:43.454
- to continue to to build
1318
00:49:43.755 --> 00:49:45.454
- a strong UK capability
1319
00:49:45.755 --> 00:49:46.974
- alongside SKA
1320
00:49:47.434 --> 00:49:49.994
- that would operate for years and decades to
1321
00:49:49.994 --> 00:49:50.489
- come.
1322
00:49:51.449 --> 00:49:54.090
- Okay. Well, I'd many years ago, I spoke
1323
00:49:54.090 --> 00:49:55.710
- to Jill Tarter about SETI.
1324
00:49:56.090 --> 00:49:57.949
- Yeah. And she said that there was,
1325
00:49:58.489 --> 00:49:59.869
- if you can kind of envisage
1326
00:50:00.329 --> 00:50:01.849
- one of the answers to the questions, why
1327
00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:04.170
- haven't we found any signals yet, is that
1328
00:50:04.170 --> 00:50:06.954
- essentially there's there's a fire hose of data
1329
00:50:06.954 --> 00:50:07.695
- coming down,
1330
00:50:08.394 --> 00:50:10.715
- towards us, and we occasionally put a thimble
1331
00:50:10.715 --> 00:50:12.715
- out and gather a little bit of it
1332
00:50:12.715 --> 00:50:14.155
- and say, look in it and go, oh,
1333
00:50:14.155 --> 00:50:15.534
- no. There's nothing there.
1334
00:50:15.994 --> 00:50:18.255
- It that leads me to the question whether,
1335
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.039
- all the data that you're gathering here with
1336
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.280
- eMOLIN, even if it did the funding didn't
1337
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:24.719
- come and it did end, is there is
1338
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:26.800
- that a body of data that will be
1339
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.280
- useful for scientists for years to come? So
1340
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.994
- certainly all our all our data is that
1341
00:50:31.994 --> 00:50:34.074
- that the output of our correlator has been
1342
00:50:34.074 --> 00:50:36.574
- archived, and we can continue to mine that.
1343
00:50:38.074 --> 00:50:40.234
- That can though, that that data mining can
1344
00:50:40.234 --> 00:50:42.815
- include looking for things like SETI.
1345
00:50:44.049 --> 00:50:46.549
- It is also the case that that typically
1346
00:50:46.609 --> 00:50:49.650
- in that data, our scientists may have one
1347
00:50:49.650 --> 00:50:52.210
- target of interest, but actually that observation covers
1348
00:50:52.210 --> 00:50:53.589
- a wider field with,
1349
00:50:54.769 --> 00:50:55.269
- dozens
1350
00:50:55.650 --> 00:50:57.585
- of sources in which could also be looked
1351
00:50:57.585 --> 00:50:59.105
- at, which just happened to be there in
1352
00:50:59.105 --> 00:51:01.265
- the background and can be studied. So so
1353
00:51:01.265 --> 00:51:03.585
- there's a huge value in our archive data.
1354
00:51:03.585 --> 00:51:05.284
- Just looking back from your position
1355
00:51:06.224 --> 00:51:08.304
- with eMurdon, what are you most proud of
1356
00:51:08.304 --> 00:51:10.065
- so far in the work that's I think
1357
00:51:10.065 --> 00:51:11.445
- that we have built this
1358
00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:13.199
- powerful capability
1359
00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:14.800
- in The UK.
1360
00:51:15.739 --> 00:51:17.280
- We operate it on a shoestring
1361
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:18.719
- with a very dedicated
1362
00:51:19.019 --> 00:51:20.000
- team of individuals,
1363
00:51:20.860 --> 00:51:22.719
- and we offer that to the whole world
1364
00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:25.099
- and that they use this for some
1365
00:51:25.660 --> 00:51:27.440
- an amazing range of science
1366
00:51:27.984 --> 00:51:31.344
- from the detection of this pebbly material forming
1367
00:51:31.344 --> 00:51:32.324
- planets to
1368
00:51:32.864 --> 00:51:35.264
- to to linking up with telescopes around the
1369
00:51:35.264 --> 00:51:38.224
- world to find the signature of of dark
1370
00:51:38.224 --> 00:51:40.644
- matter clumps, which challenge our whole
1371
00:51:41.025 --> 00:51:43.670
- understanding of the evolution of the universe.
1372
00:51:44.130 --> 00:51:45.809
- And if people are listening to this and
1373
00:51:45.809 --> 00:51:48.230
- think, I I wanna do something to help
1374
00:51:48.289 --> 00:51:51.010
- either you or somebody else who's losing their
1375
00:51:51.010 --> 00:51:52.769
- funding from a science point of view, what
1376
00:51:52.769 --> 00:51:54.789
- what what would you recommend that they do?
1377
00:51:55.464 --> 00:51:57.644
- Contact your MP if you're in The UK.
1378
00:51:59.224 --> 00:52:00.284
- Reach out to us
1379
00:52:00.585 --> 00:52:02.444
- to see how else you can help.
1380
00:52:03.065 --> 00:52:04.984
- Come and come and visit. Come and talk
1381
00:52:04.984 --> 00:52:07.065
- to us. There are many ways people can
1382
00:52:07.065 --> 00:52:09.250
- help. I'd like to thank Simon and David
1383
00:52:09.250 --> 00:52:10.769
- for talking to me for this episode of
1384
00:52:10.769 --> 00:52:13.329
- the Physics World Stories podcast. You may be
1385
00:52:13.329 --> 00:52:15.569
- interested to know, if you don't already, that
1386
00:52:15.569 --> 00:52:16.549
- in 2019,
1387
00:52:16.690 --> 00:52:18.789
- the Lovell Telescope gained UNESCO
1388
00:52:19.089 --> 00:52:20.230
- heritage status.
1389
00:52:20.925 --> 00:52:23.344
- UNESCO, the United Nations Educational
1390
00:52:23.724 --> 00:52:25.425
- Scientific and Cultural Organization,
1391
00:52:25.805 --> 00:52:28.445
- have said that they're attempting to liaise with
1392
00:52:28.445 --> 00:52:29.425
- UK authorities
1393
00:52:29.885 --> 00:52:30.864
- to gather information
1394
00:52:31.244 --> 00:52:32.704
- related to the conservation,
1395
00:52:33.405 --> 00:52:36.760
- management, and future use of Jodrell Bank. For
1396
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:38.700
- Jodrell Bank, the heritage status
1397
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:39.820
- was granted
1398
00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:41.019
- on the understanding
1399
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:44.059
- that it continued to operate in the manner
1400
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.380
- that led to the status being awarded
1401
00:52:46.680 --> 00:52:49.160
- in the first place. It's certainly a story
1402
00:52:49.160 --> 00:52:51.175
- which will continue to rumble on and with
1403
00:52:51.175 --> 00:52:53.734
- The UK's new prime minister Andy Burnham growing
1404
00:52:53.734 --> 00:52:56.054
- up as I did not too far from
1405
00:52:56.054 --> 00:52:59.094
- Jobel Bank, perhaps it might be worthwhile those
1406
00:52:59.094 --> 00:53:01.195
- of you who want to see it survive
1407
00:53:01.335 --> 00:53:03.880
- getting in touch with your local MP. Over
1408
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:05.000
- on physicsworld.com,
1409
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:06.920
- if you'd like to look deeper into this
1410
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.039
- story, you'll find an article by Michael Banks
1411
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:10.539
- entitled
1412
00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:14.519
- future of UK physics threatened by ruinous funding
1413
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:16.940
- cuts, says Institute of Physics.
1414
00:53:17.303 --> 00:53:19.143
- We'll be back next month with something else
1415
00:53:19.143 --> 00:53:21.303
- from this wonderful world of physics, and thank
1416
00:53:21.303 --> 00:53:23.323
- you very much for listening.