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Speaker 2
Hello. How are you?
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Speaker 1
I'm Cassidy Quinn. And this is mentally together. Because whether you.
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Speaker 2
Can see it on the surface or not, we are all just trying to keep ourselves.
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Speaker 1
Mentally together.
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Speaker 2
And no matter what our brains are experiencing, we're not alone. We're together. And yes, today we are back here together again. Finally, for another interview episode.
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Speaker 1
I know it's been a while, but I am.
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Speaker 2
Very excited.
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Speaker 1
To put out this episode.
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Speaker 2
Into the world with the wonderful and very wise.
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Speaker 1
Ivan Maisel
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Speaker 2
Ivan Maisel is an award winning reporter and writer who has been covering college football for almost four decade. Cards for huge outlets. Okay, we're talking like.
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Speaker 1
ESPN.
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Speaker 2
Sports Illustrated now. He writes for On3.com, where he is senior writer and vice president of editorial.
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Speaker 2
I love getting to interview different people on this.
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Speaker 1
Podcast.
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Speaker 2
For a million reasons.
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Speaker 1
One of which being I get to connect with them.
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Speaker 2
And relate to.
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Speaker 1
Them. And I.
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Speaker 2
Feel like there's always some way.
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Speaker 1
In which all of us.
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Speaker 2
Can relate to each other.
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Speaker 1
Hopefully you feel that listening to and sometimes the relating is just on a basic human level of like.
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Speaker 2
Yeah, we all struggle.
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Speaker 1
Sometimes we will all.
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Speaker 2
Grieve, we will all experience loss, we all have.
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Speaker 1
Mental.
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Speaker 2
Health, and then other.
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Speaker 1
Times.
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Speaker 2
The relating.
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Speaker 1
Is on a much deeper level. And that is the case with Ivan.
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Speaker 2
Eight years ago.
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Speaker 1
Ivan's son Max, died by suicide. And it has now been almost two.
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Speaker 2
Years.
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Speaker 1
Since my mom died by suicide. And that still.
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Speaker 2
Feels really hard to.
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Speaker 1
Say and.
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Speaker 2
Really weird to.
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Speaker 1
Say because, well, yeah, it's always going to be hard. And it's not something that I've said yet on this podcast.
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Speaker 2
Or like.
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Speaker 1
Publicly on the Internet. And that's not because I don't want to talk.
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Speaker 2
About it or because I.
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Speaker 1
Don't think.
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Speaker 2
It's super, super important to talk about. But I just wasn't ready to form the words.
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Speaker 1
I think I just needed to be.
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Speaker 2
Able to process and grieve.
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Speaker 1
On my own and not just like by myself in my own little bubble, but with my family, with my dad and my brother and my mom's.
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Speaker 2
Sisters and my mom's.
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Speaker 1
Friends and my close friends and family and just be able to process it on our own.
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Speaker 2
Before trying to figure out exactly how to talk about it. And that's so hard because, like, I work.
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Speaker 1
In the mental health space and so I feel like I should be the.
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Speaker 2
One breaking down the.
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Speaker 1
Stigma, saying all the things, knowing.
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Speaker 2
Exactly how to talk about it being super.
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Speaker 1
Open about it. But somehow it became this thing that was.
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Speaker 2
Really hard.
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Speaker 1
To say.
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Speaker 2
And figure out.
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Speaker 1
What to say and when it was.
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Speaker 2
Going to be the right.
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Speaker 1
Time to say it.
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Speaker 1
At some point, I think.
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Speaker 2
I will probably be in a place where I want to talk more about it. But for right now, I just wanted to share that.
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Speaker 1
Little bit as we get into.
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Speaker 2
This conversation.
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Speaker 1
Because it's something.
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Speaker 2
That I obviously connected really deeply.
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Speaker 1
About with Ivan and I was open with him about the fact that I.
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Speaker 2
Hadn't shared it publicly yet. And so I would be doing the interview.
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Speaker 1
As if I was not a fellow suicide loss.
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Speaker 2
Survivor.
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Speaker 1
But I did share with him about my mom, and it was nice to have that connection. The worst connection, obviously, the connection that both of us wish we did not share. But since we do, it's nice to connect.
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Speaker 1
Editing this episode was so wild.
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Speaker 2
Just listening back to the conversation.
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Speaker 1
Because somehow.
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Speaker 2
We recorded this over a year.
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Speaker 1
Ago and so you'll hear me, I think, mention at some point in our conversation that it's been seven months since we lost my mom and now it's been almost two years.
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Speaker 1
so I can tell listening just.
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Speaker 2
How different of a place.
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Speaker 1
I was in when it comes to processing and grieving the loss of my mom.
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Speaker 2
A year ago.
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Speaker 1
I was definitely in a place of feeling a lot of guilt, which can be something that's.
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Speaker 2
Very common with this specific type of loss.
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Speaker 1
The idea that I could have done something to change the outcome saved my mom.
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Speaker 1
And I think that's something that.
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Speaker 2
I will probably struggle with forever.
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Speaker 1
But with lots.
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Speaker 2
Of therapy.
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Speaker 1
And time and healing, whatever, that is not the place my brain is in now most days, but it is something.
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Speaker 2
You'll hear me.
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Speaker 1
Ask Ivan about.
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Speaker 2
In this conversation.
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Speaker 1
His advice for anyone who's lost someone to suicide, who might be struggling with some of those guilty or what if feelings. And in that moment, I was definitely asking Ivan.
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Speaker 2
For advice for myself and of course.
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Speaker 1
Everyone else who can relate.
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Speaker 2
But I really.
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Speaker 1
Needed.
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Speaker 2
To hear it for myself.
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Speaker 1
Ivan's family.
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Speaker 2
Chose to be very.
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Speaker 1
Open and transparent about how Max died. From the beginning and with Ivan's job.
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Speaker 2
He was working for ESPN.
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Speaker 1
At the time, when Max went missing, it became a national news story. And I cannot.
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Speaker 2
Relate to that part.
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Speaker 1
But I can relate to this that Ivan says one of the few things that he and his family allowed themselves to smile about in the.
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Speaker 2
Darkest, earliest.
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Speaker 1
Days of losing Max is the fact that Max hated being in the spotlight. And so he would hate the fact that his name was in all of these headlines and his.
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Speaker 2
Picture was all over TV screens.
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Speaker 1
And my mom was similar to Max in that way. She didn't.
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Speaker 2
Love her picture being.
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Speaker 1
Taken. She didn't want to be the center of attention. And so.
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Speaker 2
She would probably already hate how much I've said about her.
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Speaker 1
On this podcast. But I'm sorry, Mom, I love you and I want to talk about you so that everybody gets to know you and.
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Speaker 2
Everybody remembers you.
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Speaker 1
And yeah, but that's all I'm going to say.
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Speaker 2
About you for right now. Okay? You're safe for today because we're.
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Speaker 1
Talking about Ivan and we're talking about Max.
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Speaker 2
So here's what.
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Speaker 1
You need to know about Ivan and Max before we get into our conversation.
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Speaker 1
Max was.
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Speaker 2
21 years old. He was a college student at the Rochester.
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Speaker 1
Institute of Technology where he was studying.
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Speaker 2
Photography.
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Speaker 1
He loved video games.
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Speaker 2
Broadway musicals, comedy and cereal. One little story that I love is that for Max's 18th birthday.
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Speaker 1
They got him 18 different boxes of cereal. And I only.
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Speaker 2
Know that story because Ivan shares it.
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Speaker 1
In his book.
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Speaker 2
It's called I Keep Trying to Catch His.
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Speaker 1
Eye, a memoir.
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Speaker 2
Of Loss, Grief.
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Speaker 1
And Love. It's a beautiful book that made.
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Speaker 2
Me cry.
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Speaker 1
And smile.
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Speaker 2
Ivan writes and.
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Speaker 1
Speaks so openly about Max's life, Max's death, the stigma around suicide and men's mental health, and Ivan's.
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Speaker 2
Discovery that grief.
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Speaker 1
Is love.
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Speaker 1
So I'm honored that he took the time to talk to me and you.
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Speaker 2
Of course, about.
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Speaker 1
All of this. Talking to Ivan, I could just feel his.
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Speaker 2
Love for.
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Speaker 1
Max.
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Speaker 2
I could feel his grief.
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Speaker 1
That he continues.
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Speaker 2
To honor.
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Speaker 1
And the healing that he's been through and continues.
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Speaker 2
To go through. And really, this conversation was healing for me, too.
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Speaker 1
So let's get into it with
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Speaker 1
He's an author, he's a professional sports fan and an amazing dad. Of course, it's Ivan Mizell. Thank you for being here.
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Speaker 1
Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this. Thanks. And that's really the reaction I was hoping the book would receive. You know, you want your. It's always gratifying when you have a message and people understand it in the manner in which you intended it. And I have been struck by the number of people that have just very quietly said to me, you know, I get this.
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Speaker 1
This was helpful, or I gave it to somebody who's been struggling and, you know, and that's that's why I did it.
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Speaker 1
Well, it does.
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Speaker 1
Well, it's interesting. I been thinking about him and in terms of our younger daughter, Elizabeth, whose birthday is tomorrow and we have yeah, we have a photo of the two of them together. And he didn't like to have his photo taken and he didn't smile when he when we forced him to. But there was an event, I forget which family event it was, but he was wearing a blazer and she was wearing a nice dress.
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Speaker 1
And he put her his arm around her shoulders and he almost smiled. And I saw that photo the other day. So I've been thinking about that. And the other thing I would tell you is and I didn't discover this until after the book came out, what I kind of figured out is if somebody comes to us with a story about Max, it's really a gift.
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Speaker 1
And because as I wrote, I wrote in the book, you know, we don't we have a finite number of memories and we had a gathering of our friends right when the book was published and Max's fourth grade teacher came to the party and she told me this wonderful story of Max in the Colonial play in fourth grade, which, you know, we live in New England, so there's a colonial play and and quiet shy Max was Patrick Henry, and she said when he pounded the table and he screamed, Give me liberty or give me death, she said, the whole class as well as the teacher herself, were all like, Whoa, Max.
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Speaker 1
All right, all right. Gratitude for him changed after he did that. And and that. So that's a great example of a story that I didn't know and would never have known. But, you know, we heard and and it really is a gift. It's a great idea, but I don't do that. And some have commented and emails his his online friends have emailed me some things and you know which of course I have but that one stuck with me probably because it was the first.
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Speaker 1
And actually, if I'm being completely honest, his mother, Meg, as my wife is, she remembers a lot of things that I don't in general. So I, you know, I probably should write these down because I don't, you know, a lot of what I you know, it just goes in one ear and out the other because I'm thinking about something else.
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Speaker 1
So. Good idea. Well, well, take it and I will start doing that. Yes, I know, I know. And it's hard. And that gets sort of down to the the essential question of you have to go on and you can't stay behind with this person. You can just carry with them as much as you can. And that's ah, that's a great way to do it.
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Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I the way I arrived at that was just first the realization that I was going to carry this grief for the rest of my life. And I came to that relatively soon, a few weeks out. And I think originally, of course, you think, well, I'm going to get through this. What is get through this mean?
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Speaker 1
You know, you don't get through losing someone like this, a child or a mother or a spouse. You just you learn to carry the grief with you as you continue on in your life. And I started thinking, okay, well, if I'm once I realized it was permanent, I just sort of then began to focus. Well, why does it hurt so much?
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Speaker 1
And I sort of thought, well, it hurts that much because I loved him that much. And that's and honestly, that's kind of how I feel. A lot of times. That's how I think in terms of my writing, you know, the sportswriting that I do is is using metaphors and similes to try to explain something. I've seen. And once I hit on the idea of, you know, that the grief was equal to the love, that then it was just trying to figure out how to say that, you know, you know, and all of us as writers pare away as many words as we can to get to the essence of what we're trying to convey.
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Speaker 1
And I thought, well,
00:15:32:18 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 1
grief is love. It's the form of love, that it's the form that your love takes after you lose a person and they're not there anymore to love you back.
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Speaker 1
And that that whole idea was not always sort of the impetus for the book, but it really helped me keep going, for lack of a better phrase, just the sense of, okay, this is why it hurts so much.
00:16:02:02 - 00:16:37:08
Speaker 1
And once I understood why it hurt so much, I was better able to deal with it exactly. Yeah, right. And somebody a friend of mine whose husband died not long after Max, a couple of years after Max said to me, you know, she had read Grief is the Price We Pay for Love. And I've read that in a couple of places.
00:16:37:08 - 00:17:18:12
Speaker 1
And it's it's a lovely sentiment as well. But I didn't like the price we pay that that that focused more on the pain then I thought I wanted to focus on. You know, I to me thinking of grief as love just made it a little warmer and a little more palatable and a little less painful and got me to a place to where I could continue to function and continue to live my life without without feeling like I would never feel good again.
00:17:18:14 - 00:17:50:18
Speaker 1
And and as we talk about this seven years later, you know, it all just sounds so easy. You know, obviously it wasn't. And I've telescoped many, many months into a paragraph, but that what worked for me. You know, your mileage may vary but you know, that idea of trying to sand away the pain or just look at grief differently really helps me.
00:17:50:20 - 00:18:14:03
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes,
00:18:14:03 - 00:18:15:11
Speaker 1
yes.
00:18:15:11 - 00:18:52:07
Speaker 1
you know, and again, I got into this a little bit in the book. A neighbor of ours had lost her husband suddenly. And she said to me a few years ahead of Max. So she was a few years ahead of me on that track, on this track. And she said, and this has been very help, was really very helpful in the at the outset and remains helpful that, you know, grief, experiencing grief is like standing at the seashore and sometimes the wave washes over your ankles and sometimes it washes over your head.
00:18:52:09 - 00:19:32:23
Speaker 1
But in both cases, it goes back out. And once you understand, at least for me, once I understood that, okay, I had a good 10 minutes or I had a good hour or I had a good half a day, you know, once you see that happen, you are moving forward When you're not having a good 10 minutes, when you're not having a good day, you know, it's not forever because, you know, initially that grief just is so overwhelming and you think, how am I ever going to keep going?
00:19:33:00 - 00:20:28:01
Speaker 1
But you do. And once I realize that the pain when it felt bad that it wasn't permanent, that I was just had to let it happen, let it wash over me, let it go back out, and then I would be okay again. That really helped me as well. That's a really good question because I don't do it consciously all the time.
00:20:28:03 - 00:20:52:21
Speaker 1
I do it consciously once, you know, periodically, you know, and I asked our daughters, you know, how are you doing with your grief? How are you doing with your brother? But, you know, I will just sort of talk to Max every once in a while, maybe just to say hello or how you doing? Or I wonder where you be now.
00:20:52:21 - 00:21:14:19
Speaker 1
You know, I just sort of say that out loud or I think about it, and I think that's essentially what you're what you're asking me. I mean, I think that's the form it takes in my life is I just you know, I used to when he was little, I'd call him Maxi Boy, you know, And so I'll say I'll sort of wake up and lay in bed and just go, Maxi boy.
00:21:14:21 - 00:21:49:01
Speaker 1
Then I think about him, and then I get up and start my day. But, you know, he is he has that presence in my thinking and, you know, and he never, you know, obviously it doesn't really go away. But that's how it takes, you know, that's how he comes to the the front of my brain.
00:21:49:01 - 00:21:50:00
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00:21:50:00 - 00:22:14:11
Speaker 1
Oh, God, yes, of course.
00:22:14:11 - 00:22:42:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. And actually, when I was first confronted with it, I avoided it. My father died 15 years ago, and I just handled it so poorly. I handled it poorly as a son. I handled the poorly as a father to my children. But I was scared of it. I was scared of that pain. And so I just stepped around it and didn't deal with it, didn't deal with it effectively.
00:22:43:01 - 00:23:15:22
Speaker 1
And what a disservice I did, really, to me, to our kids and then to my dad. I mean, you know, he was diagnosed with with cancer, I guess, ten months before he died. And and I didn't you know, I didn't really rally to the to his defense or to help him or to just, you know, sit with him or anything.
00:23:15:22 - 00:24:08:15
Speaker 1
I just scared of it. And now what a mistake. What a loss. But that's the right. Yeah. And even and in his last months, I didn't want to bring up, you know, the illness. You know, I'm pretty sure he knew he was sick. You know, I mean, it's just it's it's just silly. Not silly, but it was it was just the fear and and and discomfort.
00:24:08:17 - 00:24:41:04
Speaker 1
And I have spent a lot of my life being really good at avoiding both of those things. And and so when that when I couldn't avoid it anymore, boy, I got walloped and and nothing would ever prepare you for what we went through. I mean, you know, nothing would have ever prepared us. But it was I was woefully I had no I had no tools in that toolbox.
00:24:41:06 - 00:24:56:03
Speaker 1
So I got them now. Yeah. The well, you're right. You don't wish you had them, but if you live long enough, then you, then you, then you need them.
00:24:56:03 - 00:25:39:17
Speaker 1
you're going to lose somebody. That's just how the thing works. Exactly. And that thought, you know, what was really interesting in the first in the aftermath of Max's disappearance and his death, at the beginning, we really didn't know what happened. People would very quietly come to me and say, you know, my my brother ended his life.
00:25:39:19 - 00:26:04:00
Speaker 1
You know, my sister was murdered 20 years ago. My mom, my dad, my, you know, my roommate in college. And these were people that did something like it was nothing, but these were people that I knew and and and had been friends with or acquaintances with for years. And and I saw that they carried that loss with them.
00:26:04:00 - 00:26:25:24
Speaker 1
And and we're functioning in a way that I didn't know they had lost and suffered such a grievous loss. And to see them as examples of a life that can be lived carrying that kind of grief helped me greatly. And it wasn't really anything that somebody said in terms of this is how you need to carry your grief.
00:26:25:24 - 00:27:00:16
Speaker 1
I just thought, well, gee, I've known I've known her for, you know, 20 years. I didn't know that. And and wow, okay, you know, maybe I can do this. Or maybe it's possible to live that sort of life that that was very helpful to me thinking that way. Pay it forward. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:00:16 - 00:27:37:09
Speaker 1
Well, I would put it this way in terms of mental illness and we made a decision early on in talking about Max that we were going to be open about it because he was sick.
00:27:37:09 - 00:28:05:16
Speaker 1
And I think the basic issue in American society is when we talk about mental health or mental illness, we always focus on the first word and we really need to focus on the second word a bit. If it's an illness. My ex was sick and we don't we we have trouble viewing it that way. We're getting a lot better at it than we used to be.
00:28:05:16 - 00:28:30:02
Speaker 1
But the brain is an organ, just as the heart is, just as the kidney is. And something can go wrong inside of it. But we somehow have this misbegotten notion that we're in control of that, that we should be able to control that when something does go wrong and we can through therapy or medication or both or whatever.
00:28:30:02 - 00:28:57:14
Speaker 1
But because it's not something that's visible or the effects of it are not physically visible, that that's hard for people to understand and it's much easier to make fun of it. And to have a laugh about it at someone else's expense. And I've done plenty of that in my life. But
00:28:57:14 - 00:29:01:13
Speaker 1
mental illness needs sunlight. We need to talk about it.
00:29:01:13 - 00:29:22:09
Speaker 1
We need to discuss it the way we discuss cancer. You know, my parents generation, you didn't really talk about cancer publicly. You spoke or you said it quietly. Sometimes you didn't even tell whoever had the illness that that's what it was. So
00:29:22:09 - 00:29:31:05
Speaker 1
if we talk about it and get it out in the open, then you own it. You're in control of it.
00:29:31:05 - 00:29:49:14
Speaker 1
And I did. Honestly, I we all, the four of us, didn't want anyone to interpret silence about Max as that. We were ashamed of it because we weren't.
00:29:49:14 - 00:30:02:23
Speaker 1
He was different. He was he was a quirky kid. He had grown up to be a quirky young man, but, you know, he was he had a lot of attributes as well.
00:30:03:01 - 00:30:10:03
Speaker 1
And we loved him, still love him. And I just didn't
00:30:10:03 - 00:30:13:11
Speaker 1
you know, I thought, we're going to talk about him
00:30:13:11 - 00:30:34:16
Speaker 1
and and the you know, not only the other thing about talking about him is you don't have to keep up with who you're telling what to. Are we just going to talk about this to the family? Know, are we just going to talk about this to family and friends?
00:30:34:18 - 00:30:53:22
Speaker 1
It's yeah, it's much easier to not have to think about it. You know, It's like you don't have to remember who you lied to. Not that it would be a lie to be quiet, but it's the same principle, you know, if you just talk about it like he was sick and he died, which he was, and he did, then it's just.
00:30:54:00 - 00:31:23:08
Speaker 1
It's freeing. You know, You don't have to. That burden of remembering who you're talking to about it is not there. And we had plenty of other burdens to deal with at that. In those early days. Exactly. Yeah, Well put. Yeah, put the
00:31:23:08 - 00:31:50:10
Speaker 1
I, I feel it around. I don't feel it personally, but I think my generation people, some people still have trouble with it.
00:31:50:10 - 00:32:35:05
Speaker 1
I, I think your generation is much better about being open and honest about mental health and when they are Yeah. Now you know, maybe that's a plus. The social media, you know that people are a lot of people your age are a lot more ready to ask for help and that's a good thing. And that can only help, you know, and I don't know you know, there's great concern about the the rise in mental health issues and the rise in suicide and the numbers are what the numbers are.
00:32:35:05 - 00:33:04:12
Speaker 1
But I think part of it being more in the open now is that people are less feel less of a stigma. You know, maybe all this was there all along, I don't know. But I'm sure there's more now because of all the stresses that social media puts on on young people. And as well as older. But, you know, in the way it's rewired all of our brains.
00:33:04:14 - 00:34:54:06
Speaker 1
But I think being open is not a bad thing. Yes. Yeah. Yes it did. Yes, it yeah, we have plenty of those. We do. Yeah. The yeah, to a degree. To a degree. I mean, I didn't write the book. That's a great question. I didn't write the book to grab people by the lapels and say you need to know about my son because that's not really that's, that's my image.
00:34:54:06 - 00:35:38:06
Speaker 1
That's not the reader, you know, And I didn't want to write. I understand the impulse to do that. But I think because I have spent my entire career writing to an audience, I was reluctant to do so. And for, you know, for me, you know, put me my needs in there. And I think writing a book about someone who has died just to tell the reader who that person was, you know, to me it felt self-indulgent.
00:35:38:08 - 00:36:02:18
Speaker 1
You know, I didn't want to write a book unless I thought I could help people. And and and of course, in writing the book, I wanted to explain who Max was. Of course, I wouldn't have been the story wouldn't have been as rich if I hadn't. But my primary focus was really, you know, this is how I dealt with my grief.
00:36:02:18 - 00:36:25:18
Speaker 1
Maybe it will help you. And I didn't write it cathartic early. I felt like I needed to have my legs under me before I could write, you know, a cathartic, you know, I just didn't really I think that's asking something again, asking something of the reader for your own benefit. So I didn't want to do that either.
00:36:25:18 - 00:36:34:21
Speaker 1
But if I as you did at the outset, people have said to me, I feel when I finished the book, I felt like I knew Max.
00:36:34:21 - 00:36:37:14
Speaker 1
And that's that's a great feeling because he didn't let a lot of
00:36:37:14 - 00:37:26:12
Speaker 1
people know in the notes about, you know, it's about the best you can ask for. And, you know, and that and I think you hit on something very important, that idea of he was in so much pain that this was the best solution to stop the pain.
00:37:26:14 - 00:38:01:18
Speaker 1
You know, that that's hard to hear, but it makes a lot of sense. And and I almost felt really a sense of gratitude towards him that he hung in there for for 21 years and a month and a week. You know, that knowing now the pain that he was in and I think he did that for us because he knew that this would not be easy to deal with.
00:38:01:18 - 00:38:07:05
Speaker 1
And he knew that his lost would not be easy to deal with, But the pain was even greater than that.
00:38:07:05 - 00:39:06:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. In no particular order. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:06:08 - 00:39:19:12
Speaker 1
The best advice I got about that or not really advice was more wisdom.
00:39:19:12 - 00:39:29:02
Speaker 1
There's a woman who is a psychologist at Duke who I grew up with, and she deals with trauma and loss
00:39:29:02 - 00:39:32:15
Speaker 1
and she called me the week Max disappeared.
00:39:32:15 - 00:39:44:11
Speaker 1
And, I mean, our mothers were best friends. And this woman's name is Robyn Gurwitch on the faculty at Duke. And Robyn and I hadn't spoken since we were teenagers,
00:39:44:11 - 00:39:56:01
Speaker 1
but she called me and we talked for 90 minutes. And I, you know, I mostly listened. But two things that I carried away that really helped me
00:39:56:01 - 00:40:18:18
Speaker 1
one, I would never understand why Max did this, because I think rationally and anybody who is who decides to end their lives is no longer thinking rationally in the way that we understand rational thought to be.
00:40:18:20 - 00:40:56:18
Speaker 1
So I thought, okay, I understand that, and that makes sense to me. So I'm going to use that. The other thing she said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and the other thing she said that spoke more to again in this might be to rational thinking for a lot of people, but she said, unless someone tells you that at this hour, on this day, at this place, I am going to end my life.
00:40:56:20 - 00:41:24:16
Speaker 1
You cannot stop them. And I that really helped me too, because I understood this was an issue that was much greater than I was equipped to handle. I am not a mental health professional and people now ask me to talk about mental health in general. And I say to them, look, you know, I am not an expert in mental health.
00:41:24:16 - 00:41:58:23
Speaker 1
I am an expert in one case of mental health. Have been then very well. Yeah, but exactly. I'm an expert only in the sense that I know a lot about it. So that all of that I decided to give myself and I saved completely freely that it may just be a very elaborate get out of jail free card I have given myself, you know, in this Monopoly game.
00:41:59:00 - 00:42:36:15
Speaker 1
But I just decided I wasn't going to take that on. And not everybody responds that way. You know, my I think and of course, I have guilt about my relationship with Max just as I have guilt about my relationship with my father when he was dying, you know? But I just I can't do anything about it. And and I maybe it's age or maybe it's wisdom born of age.
00:42:36:15 - 00:42:42:16
Speaker 1
I don't know. But I just thought that I can't do anything about it. Why am I going to torture myself about it? And
00:42:42:16 - 00:42:44:09
Speaker 1
you know who is
00:42:44:09 - 00:43:07:15
Speaker 1
His mother and his sisters. Think about that whole issue differently than I do. And we're all cool with each other. You know, It's that, you know, they they feel how they feel and, you know, they're sure there's something they could have done or said, you know, I'm just not going to go there.
00:43:07:17 - 00:43:33:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, to me, it's it's just a no win proposition. You know, I yeah, look, I have there are plenty of things I in my relationship with my wife and with my daughters that I wish I had done differently, you know, and the only difference is with them. I can try to make amends, you know, And that's. Or ask for forgiveness.
00:43:33:22 - 00:44:22:15
Speaker 1
And, you know, I'm with Max. I can't make amends and I can't ask for forgiveness. But, you know, I can't get it from him. I got to get it from somewhere else. Absolutely.
00:44:22:15 - 00:44:40:01
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I am much more much less reticent to to bring it up. I you know, if I think somebody is struggling, I will bring it up.
00:44:40:03 - 00:45:23:23
Speaker 1
And and if I'm talking to them about it or if they initiate the conversation, I ask very pointed questions because they brought it up. And B, they know that I know you know what they know. They know that I you know, I've paid a very heavy price on this bill. And and and they know that I'm not asking questions to be titillated or, you know, to because it's a really juicy story, you know, it's I am by nature probably an introvert.
00:45:24:00 - 00:45:28:17
Speaker 1
And in terms of dealing with people.
00:45:28:17 - 00:45:55:23
Speaker 1
So sometimes I have to force myself to ask somebody how they're doing. But it's not out of any hesitation toward mental illness. It's just basically my own personality, you know? And the other thing I would say just before I forget, the other thing I would say about forgiveness is, you know, and I've just read this in the last few years, that if you
00:45:55:23 - 00:46:13:11
Speaker 1
someone that has always beaten themselves up about everything, you know, if I've treated others, if I've treated myself with the same compassion that I try to give others, you know, So sometimes you just have to ask yourself for forgiveness.
00:46:13:13 - 00:46:19:21
Speaker 1
And I think that's that's where I've made a little bit of progress
00:46:19:21 - 00:46:58:13
Speaker 1
right? Yeah, right. Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's hard to do because we're all we're all harder on ourselves than we should be. Yes,
00:46:58:13 - 00:47:15:06
Speaker 1
I think it's sort of on the same spectrum as we were talking about earlier. I think I mean, young men are better about it and are being encouraged to be better about it.
00:47:15:06 - 00:47:34:00
Speaker 1
I think my generation that grew up, you know, with the the the Hollywood icon of John Wayne and and being tough and, you know, toughness is is not asking for help, you know, and and figuring out yourself now. Yeah
00:47:34:00 - 00:47:45:04
Speaker 1
you know toughness is is being brave enough to ask for help and to understand that you need it that's being tough.
00:47:45:04 - 00:48:47:17
Speaker 1
And I think like you know, I don't know if I'm like everybody else or not. I think my generation better about it. I think more of us are open to it, but I think a substantial number are not. And that's you know, that's just the way things evolve. It's Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, you know, I one of the regrets I had with Max was, I didn't ask him pointed questions about him struggling for one.
00:48:47:19 - 00:49:25:21
Speaker 1
Max held his cards very close to as he gave he gave us very little but to and this is where I made the mistake is thinking that if I brought it up to him, my concerns about his mental health, that he would be aghast at the depth of my, you know, I might think he was mentally ill, you know, And again, it's like my father with cancer.
00:49:25:21 - 00:49:50:14
Speaker 1
I'm sure Max knew he was struggling. You know, I knew it better than I did. And I wish I had gone him and been much more pointed the way I am now. And I you know, when I talk to people about it, you know, and, you know, so all of which is to say, I think as a parent, you have to ask, you know, how badly are you struggling?
00:49:50:14 - 00:50:25:15
Speaker 1
Do you think have you thought about suicide? Have you are you considering hurting yourself? Have you considered hurting yourself? And, you know, there is a protocol there with psycho with mental health professionals. And if they get certain answers, they leap into action. And I'm not going to pretend I know all the rules. But if you are if you are displaying suicidal ideation like you're actively thinking about it or have actively thought about it, then, then you need to do something about that.
00:50:25:17 - 00:51:08:06
Speaker 1
And I wish I had been more point blank with Max about that. Didn't do it. Well, it's terrifying. Yeah, especially for a parent. It's terrifying. But you have to understand, you know, that it's much worse to ask that in. And I mean, it's much better to ask that and be castigated for, you know? What do you think? I'm I'm not that better off than it is to get the phone call we got so, you know, you just I wish I had you know, I wish I had handled that better.
00:51:08:08 - 00:51:59:24
Speaker 1
And again, I know, you know, I don't know that would have made any difference. But, you know, I would have been more proactive than I was, which was not very proactive at all. No, Thank you. No, I don't. And I you know, and I understand where why I did what I did. And I understand, you know, you know, I wish I had done it over a lot of things I wish I had do over for us.
00:52:00:00 - 00:52:15:24
Speaker 1
Just life, you know? But then the life of a parent, you know, but you get wrapped up and you're chasing your career and you're trying to buy groceries and do all that stuff. And, you know, things get lost and
00:52:15:24 - 00:52:52:24
Speaker 1
that's just you can't have a do over. Yes.
00:52:52:24 - 00:53:16:21
Speaker 1
Well, the stresses you know, the stresses of the modern certainly the modern collegiate athlete are magnified by social media, by the increasing glare of the spotlight.
00:53:16:23 - 00:53:44:20
Speaker 1
Uh, now on top of that, for the for the 1% who are going to be making, you know, a lot of money in college because of their athletic skill, that's going to put more pressure on them. You know, these people are paying me money. I know I need to succeed because of that. You got to be really stable and really grounded to deal with all that at that young age.
00:53:44:22 - 00:54:22:15
Speaker 1
I think colleges or colleges understand that, athletic departments understand that, and they are moving as quickly as they can. And at the highest levels anyway, to try to rectify or at least deal with the issue. You know, a lot of times they're coming from behind as we've had this onslaught of mental health issues. But there are athletic departments that have been, you know, five, six, seven, eight mental health professionals just there to deal with their athletes.
00:54:22:17 - 00:54:29:12
Speaker 1
And that's that's a recognition of the severity of the issue. And,
00:54:29:12 - 00:54:57:20
Speaker 1
you know, I was there are other programs that are available for obviously for for non athletes for the entire student body. Some I think by and large, mental health departments on college campuses are underwater. They're not prepared for the for the need that's out there. There are programs out there that help these kids help themselves.
00:54:57:20 - 00:55:06:08
Speaker 1
I was on the board of the Jordan Portico Foundation for a number of years. They have peer counseling programs that they
00:55:06:08 - 00:55:22:20
Speaker 1
put on at hundreds of campuses across the country. And they've they help I mean, obviously, they teach kids to look not only to look for signs and their friends, but what to do if they see those signs and and that sort of thing is invaluable.
00:55:22:20 - 00:56:09:09
Speaker 1
And until colleges can catch up to the number of mental health professionals they need, the kids are going to have to help each other. And that's awful to say out loud. But that's just the way things are right now. Yeah, Yeah. Yes, I do. I do. I have probably more than 20 years now and I you know, I go every 4 to 6 weeks and sort of a check in and find it very helpful.
00:56:09:09 - 00:56:36:03
Speaker 1
And it's been the same person. So she knows me very well. You know, she, we, you know, we can sort of I can cut right to the issue rather than having that person have to get to know me. I have I teach her sometimes that,
00:56:36:03 - 00:56:41:07
Speaker 1
said to me at one point, I think you're my second longest patient in ten years.
00:56:41:07 - 00:56:47:13
Speaker 1
I said, Well, that doesn't speak very well for your skills, does it?
00:56:47:13 - 00:56:53:20
Speaker 1
But yeah, she's terrific. And, you know, obviously it's a it's not a friendship relationship,
00:56:53:20 - 00:57:19:09
Speaker 1
but we have a rapport that you would like to have with your close friends. And, you know, that's good. You know, who wouldn't want that or, you know, who couldn't benefit from that.
00:57:19:11 - 00:57:43:08
Speaker 1
Right. And you're going to and it's like dating. You're to kiss a frog or two, you know? But when you find that person who can help and you begin to see the benefits of that help, then your wonder why you dilly dally. You know, I mean, it's these people are good at what they do, and it's just a question of finding the right person.
00:57:43:10 - 00:58:17:20
Speaker 1
And you have to be patient with them and with yourself. And until you do find the right person and then then you'll benefit. But yeah, well, yeah, I know. And you but you know, it's certainly what my generation do with. Oh, just spit on it, rub some, spit on it and you'll be fine, you know, get up, get up and play the next play.
00:58:17:22 - 00:59:03:01
Speaker 1
You know, do the next story, whatever. But sometimes it's a little more complicated than that. And, you know, we we all, all of us dig holes for ourselves in various ways And figuring out why you do that and figuring out how to stop digging is is what these people are good at doing.
00:59:03:03 - 00:59:44:00
Speaker 1
I'm trying to think of the technical term. Is chocolate. Just chocolate always? Yeah. No, I, I mostly I just take a deep breath and think a you know, just let this, you know, let this happen. Figure out what it is that's making you sad or making you anxious and then try to do something about it. And if you can't figure it out on your own, then go ask somebody for help, you know, whether it's a therapist or a colleague or a mentor or, you know, depending on what the issue is.
00:59:44:00 - 01:00:02:08
Speaker 1
But ask for help and but but dark chocolate is pretty helpful to. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:00:23:18 - 01:00:40:24
Speaker 1
Well, it was absolutely the way I grieved was I would wake up, I wasn't sleeping well and I would wake up before dawn and I would go downstairs so that I didn't wake anybody up and just sit at the kitchen table and type whatever was in my head.
01:00:41:05 - 01:01:17:15
Speaker 1
And just to get it out was helpful. And I didn't go back and read it. Probably I didn't go back and read all of it until I started to formulate the ideas for the book. And it was some of it was stream of consciousness, some of it was a boring diary, but some of it was really a good roadmap of where I had been and what how my brain was working and what I was concerned about at that point and to see where I am now as opposed to then was helpful.
01:01:17:17 - 01:02:00:05
Speaker 1
Do I still do it now? Not not so much in terms of Max and in my grief, I am part of that. Honestly, Cassidy has been because I have been talking to people about the book. That's been very helpful to me, both in not only dealing with my own grief, but in formulating new ideas as people ask me questions and as I'm talking out loud, my brain starts making connections that I didn't make before I started talking about the book.
01:02:00:05 - 01:02:36:02
Speaker 1
So in that sense, it's been very helpful. But in terms of you sitting down and typing my heart out in my laptop, I don't do that so much anymore. Yes. Yeah, that that would be that's a nice way to think about it. And if I can come up with that much more that I need to say, I would certainly do it.
01:02:36:02 - 01:02:40:23
Speaker 1
Okay.
01:02:40:23 - 01:02:41:22
Speaker 1
Far away.
01:02:41:22 - 01:03:38:12
Speaker 1
Okay. Right. And, and you know, and again, I think that's applying the thoughts of the way we think to that person who's clearly not thinking. The only thing selfish to me about suicide is wanting that pain to end. And I'm sure there are cases where people in their lives for other reasons, but I think the vast majority of them just want the pain to stop.
01:03:38:14 - 01:04:04:16
Speaker 1
You know, there has been research that people that have attempted suicide and failed, you know, they're they get as soon as they begin the act, they realize, oh, this is a mistake. That might be I don't know. I don't know how true that is in terms of how much research has been done along those lines. I have read that.
01:04:04:18 - 01:04:43:08
Speaker 1
But it's an illness. And again, I think it's a think of it in terms of them being selfish does not does not think of it as an illness and does not think of that person being in them and the amount of pain that clearly we cannot imagine. If we could imagine that, we wouldn't think of it as a selfish act.
01:04:43:10 - 01:04:47:15
Speaker 1
Well, that's a very perceptive question. With me.
01:04:47:15 - 01:05:23:17
Speaker 1
And and I do talk in the book about our marriage and and what you know, there is research that parents who lose a child, half of them go on to get a divorce. Well, David Kessler, who is probably the foremost American expert on grief, said I listen to a podcast he did with Brené Brown and he said, it's not the grief that causes the split in a marriage.
01:05:23:17 - 01:05:27:10
Speaker 1
It's judging one another's grief. You know,
01:05:27:10 - 01:05:43:16
Speaker 1
why do you feel guilty or why don't you feel guilty? Why don't you go to the cemetery? Why do you go somewhere? I don't know. How come you're not crying every day? Why do you cry every day? You know, you have to let people deal with it the best way they can.
01:05:43:18 - 01:06:02:21
Speaker 1
And Meg and I figure that out. Well, that's kind of. We have given each other a lot of space in our relationship from really the time we began dating. Let's see, today's Monday, almost 40 years ago. So and
01:06:02:21 - 01:06:13:07
Speaker 1
know, all we said to our daughters, we have two daughters. Max was the middle child. All we ever said to our daughters is we don't care how you grieve, but you must grieve.
01:06:13:07 - 01:06:44:23
Speaker 1
You must do something to get the grief out of your system, as much of it as you can. Because if you don't control how it comes out, then it will control how it comes out. And that may not be convenient for the rest of your life. You can't hold it in your arm, will get tired, you know, And I, I compared it to holding a beach ball underwater.
01:06:45:00 - 01:07:09:13
Speaker 1
At some point you let go and the beach ball will explode out of the water. And you really you that was in terms of our relationship, one generation to the next. We just said to deal with it, you need to go to therapy, go to therapy, You need to quit your job and, you know, do something else. Whatever you need to do, do it.
01:07:09:13 - 01:07:29:07
Speaker 1
But but do something. So and they did it differently. But they they both have dealt and continue to deal with it.
01:07:29:07 - 01:08:00:02
Speaker 1
I feel less. Yeah, I was obviously angry. It would have been very easy to be angry and stay angry. I just didn't see where me being angry was going to change anything. You know, I was I was mad at Max initially, sure, but I was just wasted energy.
01:08:00:02 - 01:08:25:10
Speaker 1
You know, the it's the Alcoholics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous line, you know, or prayer, you know, give me whatever I can do to change and to know what I can't change and the wisdom of the difference. I'm butchering it. But it's something along those lines. I you know, I just decided not initially, I don't want to tell you. I just woke up, went, oh, gee, that's too bad.
01:08:25:10 - 01:09:13:06
Speaker 1
But I kind of figured out me being angry was not going to help. And it was I had so little energy. I had so many things to deal with. I didn't want to spend my energy on anger. Yes, Well, and exactly. I think we're we're better about men showing their feelings. I think men are better about showing their feelings.
01:09:13:06 - 01:09:17:10
Speaker 1
I think the younger generation is better about it.
01:09:17:10 - 01:09:34:07
Speaker 1
I'm not a very good public crier. I wish I were I grew up as a public crier and I was so scarred by that. You know what that said about me as a child? I would be embarrassed that I cried as a kid. And so I kind of learned to stop.
01:09:34:07 - 01:09:59:15
Speaker 1
And now I wish I was I wish I was good at it again. But I you know, we went to a wedding Saturday and I teared up, so I which I didn't use it. Yeah. So that's a start. But I yeah, I, I felt about being open about grief, the way I felt about being open about Max's death, you know,
01:09:59:15 - 01:10:05:05
Speaker 1
if it made somebody else feel uncomfortable, that was not my problem, you know?
01:10:05:05 - 01:10:11:09
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. You're uncomfortable with my pain. You know, but I'm still. I'm. I'm in pain
01:10:11:09 - 01:10:12:08
Speaker 1
and,
01:10:12:08 - 01:10:27:24
Speaker 1
you know, that's. You don't have to get out and shout at me in your front yard every day. But I think it's people as I say, if you you know, we discussed earlier, if you get to a certain age, you're going to experience grief.
01:10:27:24 - 01:11:01:15
Speaker 1
And if we are more outwardly honest about it and open about it, I think it would help everybody. Well, I think a lot of the things we've discussed is, you know, acknowledging the fact that it was a suicide, acknowledging the fact that it's an illness, it's not a character defect.
01:11:01:15 - 01:11:24:05
Speaker 1
And those to me are the main things. And, um, you know, to not be ashamed that somebody was sick, you know, even if it's a you know, even if society has taught us that, I think those are the biggest points.
01:11:24:07 - 01:12:03:04
Speaker 1
You know, the more open we are about it, the better we will learn not only as individuals but as a society to deal with it. That. Yes, well, it's grieving in general. Right. And I don't know that there's any suicides specific grief that other than being open about it that I can think of right now, I, I think
01:12:03:04 - 01:12:06:02
Speaker 1
well, let me put it this way.
01:12:06:04 - 01:12:45:20
Speaker 1
Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook wrote a book about after her husband died several years ago with Adam Grant, who is a professor at Penn and a terrific writer. Psychologist, sort of not a psychologist per se. But anyway, they wrote a book called Option B, and in it and it was a bestseller several years ago. And it does a great job of explaining how best to comfort your your friends and acquaintances who have lost someone.
01:12:45:22 - 01:13:08:00
Speaker 1
And the two things that I took away from the book that were very helpful and that that I really appreciated when they were applied to me by others as one. Don't say to me, is there anything I can do, or if there's anything I can do, please call me, because then that's one more thing that I have to do as a as a grieving dad.
01:13:08:00 - 01:13:32:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh, okay, great. I get to be a you know, I get the same task. Now, just just go do it. Bring me dinner, come rake my yard, you know, walk my dog. You know, I woke up one morning and my neighbors were shoveling our driveway, you know, So just go do don't ask for permission. You know, obviously, you know, I'm at the grocery store.
01:13:32:23 - 01:14:00:18
Speaker 1
I'm bringing you a roasted chicken, you know, something like that or a 12 pack, whatever they need, you know, And and the other is the the theory of the circle of grief is that there are concentric circles of grief. You know, the immediate family is the middle. And then outside of that are extended family and close friends and outside of that, as friends.
01:14:00:20 - 01:14:19:13
Speaker 1
And the rule is you extend and comfort inward and you don't ask for comfort from someone in more concentric circles than you, you know, like people who said to us,
01:14:19:13 - 01:14:32:05
Speaker 1
you know, I'm really struggling with Max's death like they expected us to help them. You know, that was a that was was not a nonstarter, but it was pretty close to nonstarter.
01:14:32:05 - 01:14:58:19
Speaker 1
You know, famously, a woman said to Meg couldn't come to the memorial service that we had for Max because it would have been too hard for her. Yeah. And Meg very, very graciously said, well, it's nice that you had a choice whether you could go or not. Yeah, but yeah. So
01:14:58:19 - 01:15:02:13
Speaker 1
don't ask somebody closer to the person than you do to help you.
01:15:02:13 - 01:15:13:07
Speaker 1
You go help them and, and, and just do something for them and they will so much appreciate it.
01:15:13:07 - 01:15:31:02
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. Saturday at the wedding, I teared up.
01:15:31:02 - 01:15:37:23
Speaker 1
the wedding was a little bittersweet because it was a girl that my ex grew up with and that was actually that was hard.
01:15:38:00 - 01:15:53:00
Speaker 1
It was, but it was. She's so happy and her family was a beautiful wedding. And, you know, so that was a good thing. Yes.
01:15:53:00 - 01:16:12:23
Speaker 1
Oh, last night, because I was I'm traveling today and I picked up my airplane neck pillow. I wore the verdict award. This royal. You can't see it. Obviously, people. Why would you say I wore it vertically instead of horizontally over my head?
01:16:13:00 - 01:16:48:03
Speaker 1
And I walked into my wife and said, take a picture of this and send it to our girls and say, I don't understand how this pillow works. And so she we both got the giggles slapstick. Max was a max would have just looked at. He would have he would have had a great deadpan reaction to it. You know, what am I grateful for right now?
01:16:48:04 - 01:17:17:03
Speaker 1
I'm grateful for this conversation in a number for a number of reasons. You've been terrific and you obviously absorb the book and understood the message of it. And and I got to talk about Max a little bit and grief a little bit. So that's a good thing.
01:17:17:03 - 01:17:21:07
Speaker 1
Exercise, probably.
01:17:21:07 - 01:17:28:14
Speaker 1
and dark chocolate, as we said. Yes.
01:17:28:14 - 01:17:30:23
Speaker 1
Oh, I'm a nervous eater.
01:17:31:00 - 01:17:39:22
Speaker 1
Uh, or, and Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's everything in moderation, including moderation. Right? But I think
01:17:39:22 - 01:18:03:20
Speaker 1
the worst thing for my mental health is when I get too busy to stick to my routines of, of getting exercise as of stepping away from my computer, you know, it is, you know, that's it's a question of organization. The
01:18:03:20 - 01:18:27:12
Speaker 1
the rhythm that I hear when I sit down to try to write, you know, I think if you have written I've written for a living for more than 40 years and I, I it's hard to explain, but I can hear there's a certain rhythm to the words when I get them the way I want them.
01:18:27:14 - 01:18:37:08
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, I it's yeah, it's been fun.
01:18:37:08 - 01:18:55:10
Speaker 1
I have a limited yeah I have a limited. My wife will burst out laughing when I say this because she makes fun of me. Because if I make dinner, it's going to be a roasted chicken, but I can roast a hell of a chicken. So. Oh, sometimes.
01:18:55:10 - 01:19:46:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that would be funnier. I could buy a really good roasted chicken. No, I. Yeah, not right. It's not my recipe, but I have toyed around with it. And so, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. No. Yeah, we had a saying in our house, you know, I used to say the girls when they were teenagers and want to get a tattoo.
01:19:46:19 - 01:20:02:18
Speaker 1
I said I would say, well what, when you were five years old, what tattoo would you have gotten? And she said, probably Barbie, I said you'd still have it. So that was my attitude about tattoos.
01:20:02:18 - 01:20:12:19
Speaker 1
I would probably do something like, uh, writer across it far, but I would misspell it like, leave that w off.
01:20:12:20 - 01:20:30:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, yeah. Yes, it would be very helpful. Yes.
01:20:30:14 - 01:20:42:07
Speaker 1
While the book is, as they say, wherever you buy your books, it's it's certainly on Amazon, it's certainly on Barnes and Noble website. It's in bookstores.
01:20:42:07 - 01:21:06:23
Speaker 1
my day job is I write for on three Ecom, which is a college sports website that started last August. And I'm writing about college football there and it's still fun.
01:21:07:00 - 01:21:08:04
Speaker 1
No,
01:21:08:04 - 01:21:37:14
Speaker 1
know, I would just say Max had a terrific sense of humor for somebody that was so quiet and he loved. I raised him on Marx Brothers and on Bob and Ray, who are a radio team, very dry comedians, to the point that he and I would just repeat, punch to one another to make points from from their recordings.
01:21:37:16 - 01:22:23:12
Speaker 1
And if you've never heard Bob and Ray are in honor of Max go listen to if you if you go on to YouTube and and type in slow talkers of America that is Yes, that is their signature one of their signature bits. And it's very funny. Terrific. Well, and thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.
01:22:23:12 - 01:22:24:04
Speaker 1
and thank.
01:22:24:04 - 01:22:26:10
Speaker 2
You wonderful human for listening.
01:22:26:10 - 01:22:32:20
Speaker 1
To this episode of mentally together I Cassidy Quinn we'll see you next time in the next few weeks.
01:22:32:20 - 01:22:39:20
Speaker 2
Because we are just getting back into the podcast game. We're trying to set realistic expectations for our selves.
01:22:39:22 - 01:22:42:03
Speaker 1
Okay, so I will see you.
01:22:42:05 - 01:22:44:12
Speaker 2
Or you will see me or hear me.
01:22:44:12 - 01:22:45:01
Speaker 1
Soon.
01:22:45:01 - 01:22:47:05
Speaker 1
In the meantime, go do something nice.
01:22:47:05 - 01:22:48:01
Speaker 2
For your brain.
01:22:48:01 - 01:22:51:04
Speaker 1
Today. Go let some of your feelings out.
01:22:51:04 - 01:22:52:05
Speaker 2
Have a big cry.
01:22:52:11 - 01:22:54:24
Speaker 1
Eat some chocolate. Read Ivan's book.
01:22:55:04 - 01:23:12:00
Speaker 2
I keep trying to catch his eye or go on YouTube and watch Bob and Ray's slow Talkers of America in honor of Max. Whatever will make your day just a little bit better. Because remember, we are all just trying to keep ourselves mentally together.
01:23:12:13 - 01:23:35:11
00:00:16:16 - 00:00:17:24
Speaker 2
Hello. How are you?
00:00:18:00 - 00:00:22:12
Speaker 1
I'm Cassidy Quinn. And this is mentally together. Because whether you.
00:00:22:12 - 00:00:26:15
Speaker 2
Can see it on the surface or not, we are all just trying to keep ourselves.
00:00:26:17 - 00:00:28:04
Speaker 1
Mentally together.
00:00:28:09 - 00:00:39:22
Speaker 2
And no matter what our brains are experiencing, we're not alone. We're together. And yes, today we are back here together again. Finally, for another interview episode.
00:00:39:22 - 00:00:42:02
Speaker 1
I know it's been a while, but I am.
00:00:42:02 - 00:00:42:21
Speaker 2
Very excited.
00:00:42:21 - 00:00:44:04
Speaker 1
To put out this episode.
00:00:44:04 - 00:00:47:07
Speaker 2
Into the world with the wonderful and very wise.
00:00:47:13 - 00:00:49:06
Speaker 1
Ivan Maisel
00:00:49:06 - 00:00:59:06
Speaker 2
Ivan Maisel is an award winning reporter and writer who has been covering college football for almost four decade. Cards for huge outlets. Okay, we're talking like.
00:00:59:06 - 00:01:00:01
Speaker 1
ESPN.
00:01:00:05 - 00:01:08:22
Speaker 2
Sports Illustrated now. He writes for On3.com, where he is senior writer and vice president of editorial.
00:01:08:22 - 00:01:11:07
Speaker 2
I love getting to interview different people on this.
00:01:11:07 - 00:01:11:21
Speaker 1
Podcast.
00:01:11:21 - 00:01:13:09
Speaker 2
For a million reasons.
00:01:13:09 - 00:01:16:13
Speaker 1
One of which being I get to connect with them.
00:01:16:15 - 00:01:17:11
Speaker 2
And relate to.
00:01:17:11 - 00:01:18:00
Speaker 1
Them. And I.
00:01:18:00 - 00:01:20:05
Speaker 2
Feel like there's always some way.
00:01:20:05 - 00:01:22:03
Speaker 1
In which all of us.
00:01:22:03 - 00:01:23:03
Speaker 2
Can relate to each other.
00:01:23:03 - 00:01:29:18
Speaker 1
Hopefully you feel that listening to and sometimes the relating is just on a basic human level of like.
00:01:29:20 - 00:01:30:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, we all struggle.
00:01:30:20 - 00:01:32:02
Speaker 1
Sometimes we will all.
00:01:32:02 - 00:01:35:15
Speaker 2
Grieve, we will all experience loss, we all have.
00:01:35:15 - 00:01:35:23
Speaker 1
Mental.
00:01:35:23 - 00:01:37:06
Speaker 2
Health, and then other.
00:01:37:06 - 00:01:37:22
Speaker 1
Times.
00:01:37:22 - 00:01:38:17
Speaker 2
The relating.
00:01:38:17 - 00:01:44:03
Speaker 1
Is on a much deeper level. And that is the case with Ivan.
00:01:44:03 - 00:01:45:06
Speaker 2
Eight years ago.
00:01:45:06 - 00:01:51:06
Speaker 1
Ivan's son Max, died by suicide. And it has now been almost two.
00:01:51:06 - 00:01:51:20
Speaker 2
Years.
00:01:51:20 - 00:01:59:09
Speaker 1
Since my mom died by suicide. And that still.
00:01:59:09 - 00:02:00:13
Speaker 2
Feels really hard to.
00:02:00:13 - 00:02:01:04
Speaker 1
Say and.
00:02:01:04 - 00:02:01:22
Speaker 2
Really weird to.
00:02:01:22 - 00:02:11:17
Speaker 1
Say because, well, yeah, it's always going to be hard. And it's not something that I've said yet on this podcast.
00:02:11:17 - 00:02:12:11
Speaker 2
Or like.
00:02:12:11 - 00:02:16:22
Speaker 1
Publicly on the Internet. And that's not because I don't want to talk.
00:02:16:22 - 00:02:18:11
Speaker 2
About it or because I.
00:02:18:11 - 00:02:18:22
Speaker 1
Don't think.
00:02:18:22 - 00:02:27:21
Speaker 2
It's super, super important to talk about. But I just wasn't ready to form the words.
00:02:27:21 - 00:02:30:06
Speaker 1
I think I just needed to be.
00:02:30:06 - 00:02:32:04
Speaker 2
Able to process and grieve.
00:02:32:06 - 00:02:39:07
Speaker 1
On my own and not just like by myself in my own little bubble, but with my family, with my dad and my brother and my mom's.
00:02:39:07 - 00:02:40:10
Speaker 2
Sisters and my mom's.
00:02:40:10 - 00:02:46:08
Speaker 1
Friends and my close friends and family and just be able to process it on our own.
00:02:46:08 - 00:02:52:00
Speaker 2
Before trying to figure out exactly how to talk about it. And that's so hard because, like, I work.
00:02:52:00 - 00:02:56:10
Speaker 1
In the mental health space and so I feel like I should be the.
00:02:56:10 - 00:02:57:07
Speaker 2
One breaking down the.
00:02:57:07 - 00:02:58:23
Speaker 1
Stigma, saying all the things, knowing.
00:02:58:23 - 00:03:02:01
Speaker 2
Exactly how to talk about it being super.
00:03:02:01 - 00:03:05:24
Speaker 1
Open about it. But somehow it became this thing that was.
00:03:06:01 - 00:03:07:10
Speaker 2
Really hard.
00:03:07:12 - 00:03:08:15
Speaker 1
To say.
00:03:08:17 - 00:03:10:18
Speaker 2
And figure out.
00:03:10:20 - 00:03:11:24
Speaker 1
What to say and when it was.
00:03:11:24 - 00:03:12:13
Speaker 2
Going to be the right.
00:03:12:13 - 00:03:14:09
Speaker 1
Time to say it.
00:03:14:09 - 00:03:15:16
Speaker 1
At some point, I think.
00:03:15:16 - 00:03:21:14
Speaker 2
I will probably be in a place where I want to talk more about it. But for right now, I just wanted to share that.
00:03:21:14 - 00:03:23:02
Speaker 1
Little bit as we get into.
00:03:23:02 - 00:03:24:11
Speaker 2
This conversation.
00:03:24:13 - 00:03:25:17
Speaker 1
Because it's something.
00:03:25:17 - 00:03:28:07
Speaker 2
That I obviously connected really deeply.
00:03:28:07 - 00:03:32:14
Speaker 1
About with Ivan and I was open with him about the fact that I.
00:03:32:14 - 00:03:36:11
Speaker 2
Hadn't shared it publicly yet. And so I would be doing the interview.
00:03:36:13 - 00:03:40:09
Speaker 1
As if I was not a fellow suicide loss.
00:03:40:09 - 00:03:41:04
Speaker 2
Survivor.
00:03:41:09 - 00:04:00:06
Speaker 1
But I did share with him about my mom, and it was nice to have that connection. The worst connection, obviously, the connection that both of us wish we did not share. But since we do, it's nice to connect.
00:04:00:06 - 00:04:03:17
Speaker 1
Editing this episode was so wild.
00:04:03:17 - 00:04:05:20
Speaker 2
Just listening back to the conversation.
00:04:05:22 - 00:04:07:05
Speaker 1
Because somehow.
00:04:07:05 - 00:04:09:09
Speaker 2
We recorded this over a year.
00:04:09:09 - 00:04:20:07
Speaker 1
Ago and so you'll hear me, I think, mention at some point in our conversation that it's been seven months since we lost my mom and now it's been almost two years.
00:04:20:07 - 00:04:22:19
Speaker 1
so I can tell listening just.
00:04:22:19 - 00:04:23:17
Speaker 2
How different of a place.
00:04:23:17 - 00:04:29:20
Speaker 1
I was in when it comes to processing and grieving the loss of my mom.
00:04:29:22 - 00:04:31:02
Speaker 2
A year ago.
00:04:31:04 - 00:04:36:00
Speaker 1
I was definitely in a place of feeling a lot of guilt, which can be something that's.
00:04:36:02 - 00:04:38:09
Speaker 2
Very common with this specific type of loss.
00:04:38:15 - 00:04:44:14
Speaker 1
The idea that I could have done something to change the outcome saved my mom.
00:04:44:14 - 00:04:46:09
Speaker 1
And I think that's something that.
00:04:46:09 - 00:04:49:15
Speaker 2
I will probably struggle with forever.
00:04:49:17 - 00:04:51:00
Speaker 1
But with lots.
00:04:51:00 - 00:04:52:06
Speaker 2
Of therapy.
00:04:52:07 - 00:05:01:11
Speaker 1
And time and healing, whatever, that is not the place my brain is in now most days, but it is something.
00:05:01:11 - 00:05:01:20
Speaker 2
You'll hear me.
00:05:01:20 - 00:05:02:19
Speaker 1
Ask Ivan about.
00:05:02:24 - 00:05:03:24
Speaker 2
In this conversation.
00:05:04:02 - 00:05:16:21
Speaker 1
His advice for anyone who's lost someone to suicide, who might be struggling with some of those guilty or what if feelings. And in that moment, I was definitely asking Ivan.
00:05:16:23 - 00:05:20:07
Speaker 2
For advice for myself and of course.
00:05:20:12 - 00:05:22:01
Speaker 1
Everyone else who can relate.
00:05:22:03 - 00:05:23:22
Speaker 2
But I really.
00:05:23:22 - 00:05:24:09
Speaker 1
Needed.
00:05:24:09 - 00:05:26:13
Speaker 2
To hear it for myself.
00:05:26:13 - 00:05:27:12
Speaker 1
Ivan's family.
00:05:27:13 - 00:05:28:11
Speaker 2
Chose to be very.
00:05:28:11 - 00:05:33:18
Speaker 1
Open and transparent about how Max died. From the beginning and with Ivan's job.
00:05:33:24 - 00:05:35:03
Speaker 2
He was working for ESPN.
00:05:35:03 - 00:05:42:16
Speaker 1
At the time, when Max went missing, it became a national news story. And I cannot.
00:05:42:16 - 00:05:43:17
Speaker 2
Relate to that part.
00:05:43:17 - 00:05:53:10
Speaker 1
But I can relate to this that Ivan says one of the few things that he and his family allowed themselves to smile about in the.
00:05:53:11 - 00:05:55:03
Speaker 2
Darkest, earliest.
00:05:55:03 - 00:06:05:07
Speaker 1
Days of losing Max is the fact that Max hated being in the spotlight. And so he would hate the fact that his name was in all of these headlines and his.
00:06:05:07 - 00:06:07:16
Speaker 2
Picture was all over TV screens.
00:06:07:18 - 00:06:12:21
Speaker 1
And my mom was similar to Max in that way. She didn't.
00:06:12:21 - 00:06:13:17
Speaker 2
Love her picture being.
00:06:13:18 - 00:06:16:10
Speaker 1
Taken. She didn't want to be the center of attention. And so.
00:06:16:10 - 00:06:20:12
Speaker 2
She would probably already hate how much I've said about her.
00:06:20:14 - 00:06:30:04
Speaker 1
On this podcast. But I'm sorry, Mom, I love you and I want to talk about you so that everybody gets to know you and.
00:06:30:04 - 00:06:31:14
Speaker 2
Everybody remembers you.
00:06:31:16 - 00:06:34:05
Speaker 1
And yeah, but that's all I'm going to say.
00:06:34:05 - 00:06:37:15
Speaker 2
About you for right now. Okay? You're safe for today because we're.
00:06:37:15 - 00:06:39:23
Speaker 1
Talking about Ivan and we're talking about Max.
00:06:39:23 - 00:06:40:17
Speaker 2
So here's what.
00:06:40:17 - 00:06:44:14
Speaker 1
You need to know about Ivan and Max before we get into our conversation.
00:06:44:14 - 00:06:45:02
Speaker 1
Max was.
00:06:45:02 - 00:06:48:04
Speaker 2
21 years old. He was a college student at the Rochester.
00:06:48:04 - 00:06:50:19
Speaker 1
Institute of Technology where he was studying.
00:06:50:19 - 00:06:51:17
Speaker 2
Photography.
00:06:51:19 - 00:06:53:05
Speaker 1
He loved video games.
00:06:53:05 - 00:07:00:18
Speaker 2
Broadway musicals, comedy and cereal. One little story that I love is that for Max's 18th birthday.
00:07:00:24 - 00:07:06:13
Speaker 1
They got him 18 different boxes of cereal. And I only.
00:07:06:13 - 00:07:08:23
Speaker 2
Know that story because Ivan shares it.
00:07:09:04 - 00:07:10:04
Speaker 1
In his book.
00:07:10:10 - 00:07:12:12
Speaker 2
It's called I Keep Trying to Catch His.
00:07:12:12 - 00:07:13:17
Speaker 1
Eye, a memoir.
00:07:13:17 - 00:07:15:00
Speaker 2
Of Loss, Grief.
00:07:15:00 - 00:07:18:13
Speaker 1
And Love. It's a beautiful book that made.
00:07:18:13 - 00:07:19:16
Speaker 2
Me cry.
00:07:19:18 - 00:07:20:24
Speaker 1
And smile.
00:07:20:24 - 00:07:21:24
Speaker 2
Ivan writes and.
00:07:21:24 - 00:07:30:17
Speaker 1
Speaks so openly about Max's life, Max's death, the stigma around suicide and men's mental health, and Ivan's.
00:07:30:17 - 00:07:32:03
Speaker 2
Discovery that grief.
00:07:32:09 - 00:07:34:11
Speaker 1
Is love.
00:07:34:11 - 00:07:38:20
Speaker 1
So I'm honored that he took the time to talk to me and you.
00:07:38:20 - 00:07:39:17
Speaker 2
Of course, about.
00:07:39:17 - 00:07:43:12
Speaker 1
All of this. Talking to Ivan, I could just feel his.
00:07:43:12 - 00:07:44:00
Speaker 2
Love for.
00:07:44:00 - 00:07:44:24
Speaker 1
Max.
00:07:45:01 - 00:07:46:11
Speaker 2
I could feel his grief.
00:07:46:12 - 00:07:47:08
Speaker 1
That he continues.
00:07:47:08 - 00:07:48:04
Speaker 2
To honor.
00:07:48:06 - 00:07:51:13
Speaker 1
And the healing that he's been through and continues.
00:07:51:13 - 00:07:56:11
Speaker 2
To go through. And really, this conversation was healing for me, too.
00:07:56:13 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 1
So let's get into it with
00:07:59:03 - 00:08:07:10
Speaker 1
He's an author, he's a professional sports fan and an amazing dad. Of course, it's Ivan Mizell. Thank you for being here.
00:08:07:10 - 00:09:03:20
Speaker 1
Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this. Thanks. And that's really the reaction I was hoping the book would receive. You know, you want your. It's always gratifying when you have a message and people understand it in the manner in which you intended it. And I have been struck by the number of people that have just very quietly said to me, you know, I get this.
00:09:03:22 - 00:09:29:01
Speaker 1
This was helpful, or I gave it to somebody who's been struggling and, you know, and that's that's why I did it.
00:09:29:01 - 00:09:55:03
Speaker 1
Well, it does.
00:09:55:03 - 00:10:22:23
Speaker 1
Well, it's interesting. I been thinking about him and in terms of our younger daughter, Elizabeth, whose birthday is tomorrow and we have yeah, we have a photo of the two of them together. And he didn't like to have his photo taken and he didn't smile when he when we forced him to. But there was an event, I forget which family event it was, but he was wearing a blazer and she was wearing a nice dress.
00:10:23:00 - 00:10:49:13
Speaker 1
And he put her his arm around her shoulders and he almost smiled. And I saw that photo the other day. So I've been thinking about that. And the other thing I would tell you is and I didn't discover this until after the book came out, what I kind of figured out is if somebody comes to us with a story about Max, it's really a gift.
00:10:49:15 - 00:11:40:23
Speaker 1
And because as I wrote, I wrote in the book, you know, we don't we have a finite number of memories and we had a gathering of our friends right when the book was published and Max's fourth grade teacher came to the party and she told me this wonderful story of Max in the Colonial play in fourth grade, which, you know, we live in New England, so there's a colonial play and and quiet shy Max was Patrick Henry, and she said when he pounded the table and he screamed, Give me liberty or give me death, she said, the whole class as well as the teacher herself, were all like, Whoa, Max.
00:11:41:00 - 00:12:46:06
Speaker 1
All right, all right. Gratitude for him changed after he did that. And and that. So that's a great example of a story that I didn't know and would never have known. But, you know, we heard and and it really is a gift. It's a great idea, but I don't do that. And some have commented and emails his his online friends have emailed me some things and you know which of course I have but that one stuck with me probably because it was the first.
00:12:46:08 - 00:13:06:01
Speaker 1
And actually, if I'm being completely honest, his mother, Meg, as my wife is, she remembers a lot of things that I don't in general. So I, you know, I probably should write these down because I don't, you know, a lot of what I you know, it just goes in one ear and out the other because I'm thinking about something else.
00:13:06:01 - 00:13:52:19
Speaker 1
So. Good idea. Well, well, take it and I will start doing that. Yes, I know, I know. And it's hard. And that gets sort of down to the the essential question of you have to go on and you can't stay behind with this person. You can just carry with them as much as you can. And that's ah, that's a great way to do it.
00:13:52:21 - 00:14:23:13
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. Well, you know, I the way I arrived at that was just first the realization that I was going to carry this grief for the rest of my life. And I came to that relatively soon, a few weeks out. And I think originally, of course, you think, well, I'm going to get through this. What is get through this mean?
00:14:23:15 - 00:14:49:10
Speaker 1
You know, you don't get through losing someone like this, a child or a mother or a spouse. You just you learn to carry the grief with you as you continue on in your life. And I started thinking, okay, well, if I'm once I realized it was permanent, I just sort of then began to focus. Well, why does it hurt so much?
00:14:49:12 - 00:15:30:07
Speaker 1
And I sort of thought, well, it hurts that much because I loved him that much. And that's and honestly, that's kind of how I feel. A lot of times. That's how I think in terms of my writing, you know, the sportswriting that I do is is using metaphors and similes to try to explain something. I've seen. And once I hit on the idea of, you know, that the grief was equal to the love, that then it was just trying to figure out how to say that, you know, you know, and all of us as writers pare away as many words as we can to get to the essence of what we're trying to convey.
00:15:30:07 - 00:15:32:18
Speaker 1
And I thought, well,
00:15:32:18 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 1
grief is love. It's the form of love, that it's the form that your love takes after you lose a person and they're not there anymore to love you back.
00:15:44:08 - 00:16:02:01
Speaker 1
And that that whole idea was not always sort of the impetus for the book, but it really helped me keep going, for lack of a better phrase, just the sense of, okay, this is why it hurts so much.
00:16:02:02 - 00:16:37:08
Speaker 1
And once I understood why it hurt so much, I was better able to deal with it exactly. Yeah, right. And somebody a friend of mine whose husband died not long after Max, a couple of years after Max said to me, you know, she had read Grief is the Price We Pay for Love. And I've read that in a couple of places.
00:16:37:08 - 00:17:18:12
Speaker 1
And it's it's a lovely sentiment as well. But I didn't like the price we pay that that that focused more on the pain then I thought I wanted to focus on. You know, I to me thinking of grief as love just made it a little warmer and a little more palatable and a little less painful and got me to a place to where I could continue to function and continue to live my life without without feeling like I would never feel good again.
00:17:18:14 - 00:17:50:18
Speaker 1
And and as we talk about this seven years later, you know, it all just sounds so easy. You know, obviously it wasn't. And I've telescoped many, many months into a paragraph, but that what worked for me. You know, your mileage may vary but you know, that idea of trying to sand away the pain or just look at grief differently really helps me.
00:17:50:20 - 00:18:14:03
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes,
00:18:14:03 - 00:18:15:11
Speaker 1
yes.
00:18:15:11 - 00:18:52:07
Speaker 1
you know, and again, I got into this a little bit in the book. A neighbor of ours had lost her husband suddenly. And she said to me a few years ahead of Max. So she was a few years ahead of me on that track, on this track. And she said, and this has been very help, was really very helpful in the at the outset and remains helpful that, you know, grief, experiencing grief is like standing at the seashore and sometimes the wave washes over your ankles and sometimes it washes over your head.
00:18:52:09 - 00:19:32:23
Speaker 1
But in both cases, it goes back out. And once you understand, at least for me, once I understood that, okay, I had a good 10 minutes or I had a good hour or I had a good half a day, you know, once you see that happen, you are moving forward When you're not having a good 10 minutes, when you're not having a good day, you know, it's not forever because, you know, initially that grief just is so overwhelming and you think, how am I ever going to keep going?
00:19:33:00 - 00:20:28:01
Speaker 1
But you do. And once I realize that the pain when it felt bad that it wasn't permanent, that I was just had to let it happen, let it wash over me, let it go back out, and then I would be okay again. That really helped me as well. That's a really good question because I don't do it consciously all the time.
00:20:28:03 - 00:20:52:21
Speaker 1
I do it consciously once, you know, periodically, you know, and I asked our daughters, you know, how are you doing with your grief? How are you doing with your brother? But, you know, I will just sort of talk to Max every once in a while, maybe just to say hello or how you doing? Or I wonder where you be now.
00:20:52:21 - 00:21:14:19
Speaker 1
You know, I just sort of say that out loud or I think about it, and I think that's essentially what you're what you're asking me. I mean, I think that's the form it takes in my life is I just you know, I used to when he was little, I'd call him Maxi Boy, you know, And so I'll say I'll sort of wake up and lay in bed and just go, Maxi boy.
00:21:14:21 - 00:21:49:01
Speaker 1
Then I think about him, and then I get up and start my day. But, you know, he is he has that presence in my thinking and, you know, and he never, you know, obviously it doesn't really go away. But that's how it takes, you know, that's how he comes to the the front of my brain.
00:21:49:01 - 00:21:50:00
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00:21:50:00 - 00:22:14:11
Speaker 1
Oh, God, yes, of course.
00:22:14:11 - 00:22:42:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. And actually, when I was first confronted with it, I avoided it. My father died 15 years ago, and I just handled it so poorly. I handled it poorly as a son. I handled the poorly as a father to my children. But I was scared of it. I was scared of that pain. And so I just stepped around it and didn't deal with it, didn't deal with it effectively.
00:22:43:01 - 00:23:15:22
Speaker 1
And what a disservice I did, really, to me, to our kids and then to my dad. I mean, you know, he was diagnosed with with cancer, I guess, ten months before he died. And and I didn't you know, I didn't really rally to the to his defense or to help him or to just, you know, sit with him or anything.
00:23:15:22 - 00:24:08:15
Speaker 1
I just scared of it. And now what a mistake. What a loss. But that's the right. Yeah. And even and in his last months, I didn't want to bring up, you know, the illness. You know, I'm pretty sure he knew he was sick. You know, I mean, it's just it's it's just silly. Not silly, but it was it was just the fear and and and discomfort.
00:24:08:17 - 00:24:41:04
Speaker 1
And I have spent a lot of my life being really good at avoiding both of those things. And and so when that when I couldn't avoid it anymore, boy, I got walloped and and nothing would ever prepare you for what we went through. I mean, you know, nothing would have ever prepared us. But it was I was woefully I had no I had no tools in that toolbox.
00:24:41:06 - 00:24:56:03
Speaker 1
So I got them now. Yeah. The well, you're right. You don't wish you had them, but if you live long enough, then you, then you, then you need them.
00:24:56:03 - 00:25:39:17
Speaker 1
you're going to lose somebody. That's just how the thing works. Exactly. And that thought, you know, what was really interesting in the first in the aftermath of Max's disappearance and his death, at the beginning, we really didn't know what happened. People would very quietly come to me and say, you know, my my brother ended his life.
00:25:39:19 - 00:26:04:00
Speaker 1
You know, my sister was murdered 20 years ago. My mom, my dad, my, you know, my roommate in college. And these were people that did something like it was nothing, but these were people that I knew and and and had been friends with or acquaintances with for years. And and I saw that they carried that loss with them.
00:26:04:00 - 00:26:25:24
Speaker 1
And and we're functioning in a way that I didn't know they had lost and suffered such a grievous loss. And to see them as examples of a life that can be lived carrying that kind of grief helped me greatly. And it wasn't really anything that somebody said in terms of this is how you need to carry your grief.
00:26:25:24 - 00:27:00:16
Speaker 1
I just thought, well, gee, I've known I've known her for, you know, 20 years. I didn't know that. And and wow, okay, you know, maybe I can do this. Or maybe it's possible to live that sort of life that that was very helpful to me thinking that way. Pay it forward. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:00:16 - 00:27:37:09
Speaker 1
Well, I would put it this way in terms of mental illness and we made a decision early on in talking about Max that we were going to be open about it because he was sick.
00:27:37:09 - 00:28:05:16
Speaker 1
And I think the basic issue in American society is when we talk about mental health or mental illness, we always focus on the first word and we really need to focus on the second word a bit. If it's an illness. My ex was sick and we don't we we have trouble viewing it that way. We're getting a lot better at it than we used to be.
00:28:05:16 - 00:28:30:02
Speaker 1
But the brain is an organ, just as the heart is, just as the kidney is. And something can go wrong inside of it. But we somehow have this misbegotten notion that we're in control of that, that we should be able to control that when something does go wrong and we can through therapy or medication or both or whatever.
00:28:30:02 - 00:28:57:14
Speaker 1
But because it's not something that's visible or the effects of it are not physically visible, that that's hard for people to understand and it's much easier to make fun of it. And to have a laugh about it at someone else's expense. And I've done plenty of that in my life. But
00:28:57:14 - 00:29:01:13
Speaker 1
mental illness needs sunlight. We need to talk about it.
00:29:01:13 - 00:29:22:09
Speaker 1
We need to discuss it the way we discuss cancer. You know, my parents generation, you didn't really talk about cancer publicly. You spoke or you said it quietly. Sometimes you didn't even tell whoever had the illness that that's what it was. So
00:29:22:09 - 00:29:31:05
Speaker 1
if we talk about it and get it out in the open, then you own it. You're in control of it.
00:29:31:05 - 00:29:49:14
Speaker 1
And I did. Honestly, I we all, the four of us, didn't want anyone to interpret silence about Max as that. We were ashamed of it because we weren't.
00:29:49:14 - 00:30:02:23
Speaker 1
He was different. He was he was a quirky kid. He had grown up to be a quirky young man, but, you know, he was he had a lot of attributes as well.
00:30:03:01 - 00:30:10:03
Speaker 1
And we loved him, still love him. And I just didn't
00:30:10:03 - 00:30:13:11
Speaker 1
you know, I thought, we're going to talk about him
00:30:13:11 - 00:30:34:16
Speaker 1
and and the you know, not only the other thing about talking about him is you don't have to keep up with who you're telling what to. Are we just going to talk about this to the family? Know, are we just going to talk about this to family and friends?
00:30:34:18 - 00:30:53:22
Speaker 1
It's yeah, it's much easier to not have to think about it. You know, It's like you don't have to remember who you lied to. Not that it would be a lie to be quiet, but it's the same principle, you know, if you just talk about it like he was sick and he died, which he was, and he did, then it's just.
00:30:54:00 - 00:31:23:08
Speaker 1
It's freeing. You know, You don't have to. That burden of remembering who you're talking to about it is not there. And we had plenty of other burdens to deal with at that. In those early days. Exactly. Yeah, Well put. Yeah, put the
00:31:23:08 - 00:31:50:10
Speaker 1
I, I feel it around. I don't feel it personally, but I think my generation people, some people still have trouble with it.
00:31:50:10 - 00:32:35:05
Speaker 1
I, I think your generation is much better about being open and honest about mental health and when they are Yeah. Now you know, maybe that's a plus. The social media, you know that people are a lot of people your age are a lot more ready to ask for help and that's a good thing. And that can only help, you know, and I don't know you know, there's great concern about the the rise in mental health issues and the rise in suicide and the numbers are what the numbers are.
00:32:35:05 - 00:33:04:12
Speaker 1
But I think part of it being more in the open now is that people are less feel less of a stigma. You know, maybe all this was there all along, I don't know. But I'm sure there's more now because of all the stresses that social media puts on on young people. And as well as older. But, you know, in the way it's rewired all of our brains.
00:33:04:14 - 00:34:54:06
Speaker 1
But I think being open is not a bad thing. Yes. Yeah. Yes it did. Yes, it yeah, we have plenty of those. We do. Yeah. The yeah, to a degree. To a degree. I mean, I didn't write the book. That's a great question. I didn't write the book to grab people by the lapels and say you need to know about my son because that's not really that's, that's my image.
00:34:54:06 - 00:35:38:06
Speaker 1
That's not the reader, you know, And I didn't want to write. I understand the impulse to do that. But I think because I have spent my entire career writing to an audience, I was reluctant to do so. And for, you know, for me, you know, put me my needs in there. And I think writing a book about someone who has died just to tell the reader who that person was, you know, to me it felt self-indulgent.
00:35:38:08 - 00:36:02:18
Speaker 1
You know, I didn't want to write a book unless I thought I could help people. And and and of course, in writing the book, I wanted to explain who Max was. Of course, I wouldn't have been the story wouldn't have been as rich if I hadn't. But my primary focus was really, you know, this is how I dealt with my grief.
00:36:02:18 - 00:36:25:18
Speaker 1
Maybe it will help you. And I didn't write it cathartic early. I felt like I needed to have my legs under me before I could write, you know, a cathartic, you know, I just didn't really I think that's asking something again, asking something of the reader for your own benefit. So I didn't want to do that either.
00:36:25:18 - 00:36:34:21
Speaker 1
But if I as you did at the outset, people have said to me, I feel when I finished the book, I felt like I knew Max.
00:36:34:21 - 00:36:37:14
Speaker 1
And that's that's a great feeling because he didn't let a lot of
00:36:37:14 - 00:37:26:12
Speaker 1
people know in the notes about, you know, it's about the best you can ask for. And, you know, and that and I think you hit on something very important, that idea of he was in so much pain that this was the best solution to stop the pain.
00:37:26:14 - 00:38:01:18
Speaker 1
You know, that that's hard to hear, but it makes a lot of sense. And and I almost felt really a sense of gratitude towards him that he hung in there for for 21 years and a month and a week. You know, that knowing now the pain that he was in and I think he did that for us because he knew that this would not be easy to deal with.
00:38:01:18 - 00:38:07:05
Speaker 1
And he knew that his lost would not be easy to deal with, But the pain was even greater than that.
00:38:07:05 - 00:39:06:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. In no particular order. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:06:08 - 00:39:19:12
Speaker 1
The best advice I got about that or not really advice was more wisdom.
00:39:19:12 - 00:39:29:02
Speaker 1
There's a woman who is a psychologist at Duke who I grew up with, and she deals with trauma and loss
00:39:29:02 - 00:39:32:15
Speaker 1
and she called me the week Max disappeared.
00:39:32:15 - 00:39:44:11
Speaker 1
And, I mean, our mothers were best friends. And this woman's name is Robyn Gurwitch on the faculty at Duke. And Robyn and I hadn't spoken since we were teenagers,
00:39:44:11 - 00:39:56:01
Speaker 1
but she called me and we talked for 90 minutes. And I, you know, I mostly listened. But two things that I carried away that really helped me
00:39:56:01 - 00:40:18:18
Speaker 1
one, I would never understand why Max did this, because I think rationally and anybody who is who decides to end their lives is no longer thinking rationally in the way that we understand rational thought to be.
00:40:18:20 - 00:40:56:18
Speaker 1
So I thought, okay, I understand that, and that makes sense to me. So I'm going to use that. The other thing she said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and the other thing she said that spoke more to again in this might be to rational thinking for a lot of people, but she said, unless someone tells you that at this hour, on this day, at this place, I am going to end my life.
00:40:56:20 - 00:41:24:16
Speaker 1
You cannot stop them. And I that really helped me too, because I understood this was an issue that was much greater than I was equipped to handle. I am not a mental health professional and people now ask me to talk about mental health in general. And I say to them, look, you know, I am not an expert in mental health.
00:41:24:16 - 00:41:58:23
Speaker 1
I am an expert in one case of mental health. Have been then very well. Yeah, but exactly. I'm an expert only in the sense that I know a lot about it. So that all of that I decided to give myself and I saved completely freely that it may just be a very elaborate get out of jail free card I have given myself, you know, in this Monopoly game.
00:41:59:00 - 00:42:36:15
Speaker 1
But I just decided I wasn't going to take that on. And not everybody responds that way. You know, my I think and of course, I have guilt about my relationship with Max just as I have guilt about my relationship with my father when he was dying, you know? But I just I can't do anything about it. And and I maybe it's age or maybe it's wisdom born of age.
00:42:36:15 - 00:42:42:16
Speaker 1
I don't know. But I just thought that I can't do anything about it. Why am I going to torture myself about it? And
00:42:42:16 - 00:42:44:09
Speaker 1
you know who is
00:42:44:09 - 00:43:07:15
Speaker 1
His mother and his sisters. Think about that whole issue differently than I do. And we're all cool with each other. You know, It's that, you know, they they feel how they feel and, you know, they're sure there's something they could have done or said, you know, I'm just not going to go there.
00:43:07:17 - 00:43:33:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, to me, it's it's just a no win proposition. You know, I yeah, look, I have there are plenty of things I in my relationship with my wife and with my daughters that I wish I had done differently, you know, and the only difference is with them. I can try to make amends, you know, And that's. Or ask for forgiveness.
00:43:33:22 - 00:44:22:15
Speaker 1
And, you know, I'm with Max. I can't make amends and I can't ask for forgiveness. But, you know, I can't get it from him. I got to get it from somewhere else. Absolutely.
00:44:22:15 - 00:44:40:01
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I am much more much less reticent to to bring it up. I you know, if I think somebody is struggling, I will bring it up.
00:44:40:03 - 00:45:23:23
Speaker 1
And and if I'm talking to them about it or if they initiate the conversation, I ask very pointed questions because they brought it up. And B, they know that I know you know what they know. They know that I you know, I've paid a very heavy price on this bill. And and and they know that I'm not asking questions to be titillated or, you know, to because it's a really juicy story, you know, it's I am by nature probably an introvert.
00:45:24:00 - 00:45:28:17
Speaker 1
And in terms of dealing with people.
00:45:28:17 - 00:45:55:23
Speaker 1
So sometimes I have to force myself to ask somebody how they're doing. But it's not out of any hesitation toward mental illness. It's just basically my own personality, you know? And the other thing I would say just before I forget, the other thing I would say about forgiveness is, you know, and I've just read this in the last few years, that if you
00:45:55:23 - 00:46:13:11
Speaker 1
someone that has always beaten themselves up about everything, you know, if I've treated others, if I've treated myself with the same compassion that I try to give others, you know, So sometimes you just have to ask yourself for forgiveness.
00:46:13:13 - 00:46:19:21
Speaker 1
And I think that's that's where I've made a little bit of progress
00:46:19:21 - 00:46:58:13
Speaker 1
right? Yeah, right. Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's hard to do because we're all we're all harder on ourselves than we should be. Yes,
00:46:58:13 - 00:47:15:06
Speaker 1
I think it's sort of on the same spectrum as we were talking about earlier. I think I mean, young men are better about it and are being encouraged to be better about it.
00:47:15:06 - 00:47:34:00
Speaker 1
I think my generation that grew up, you know, with the the the Hollywood icon of John Wayne and and being tough and, you know, toughness is is not asking for help, you know, and and figuring out yourself now. Yeah
00:47:34:00 - 00:47:45:04
Speaker 1
you know toughness is is being brave enough to ask for help and to understand that you need it that's being tough.
00:47:45:04 - 00:48:47:17
Speaker 1
And I think like you know, I don't know if I'm like everybody else or not. I think my generation better about it. I think more of us are open to it, but I think a substantial number are not. And that's you know, that's just the way things evolve. It's Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, you know, I one of the regrets I had with Max was, I didn't ask him pointed questions about him struggling for one.
00:48:47:19 - 00:49:25:21
Speaker 1
Max held his cards very close to as he gave he gave us very little but to and this is where I made the mistake is thinking that if I brought it up to him, my concerns about his mental health, that he would be aghast at the depth of my, you know, I might think he was mentally ill, you know, And again, it's like my father with cancer.
00:49:25:21 - 00:49:50:14
Speaker 1
I'm sure Max knew he was struggling. You know, I knew it better than I did. And I wish I had gone him and been much more pointed the way I am now. And I you know, when I talk to people about it, you know, and, you know, so all of which is to say, I think as a parent, you have to ask, you know, how badly are you struggling?
00:49:50:14 - 00:50:25:15
Speaker 1
Do you think have you thought about suicide? Have you are you considering hurting yourself? Have you considered hurting yourself? And, you know, there is a protocol there with psycho with mental health professionals. And if they get certain answers, they leap into action. And I'm not going to pretend I know all the rules. But if you are if you are displaying suicidal ideation like you're actively thinking about it or have actively thought about it, then, then you need to do something about that.
00:50:25:17 - 00:51:08:06
Speaker 1
And I wish I had been more point blank with Max about that. Didn't do it. Well, it's terrifying. Yeah, especially for a parent. It's terrifying. But you have to understand, you know, that it's much worse to ask that in. And I mean, it's much better to ask that and be castigated for, you know? What do you think? I'm I'm not that better off than it is to get the phone call we got so, you know, you just I wish I had you know, I wish I had handled that better.
00:51:08:08 - 00:51:59:24
Speaker 1
And again, I know, you know, I don't know that would have made any difference. But, you know, I would have been more proactive than I was, which was not very proactive at all. No, Thank you. No, I don't. And I you know, and I understand where why I did what I did. And I understand, you know, you know, I wish I had done it over a lot of things I wish I had do over for us.
00:52:00:00 - 00:52:15:24
Speaker 1
Just life, you know? But then the life of a parent, you know, but you get wrapped up and you're chasing your career and you're trying to buy groceries and do all that stuff. And, you know, things get lost and
00:52:15:24 - 00:52:52:24
Speaker 1
that's just you can't have a do over. Yes.
00:52:52:24 - 00:53:16:21
Speaker 1
Well, the stresses you know, the stresses of the modern certainly the modern collegiate athlete are magnified by social media, by the increasing glare of the spotlight.
00:53:16:23 - 00:53:44:20
Speaker 1
Uh, now on top of that, for the for the 1% who are going to be making, you know, a lot of money in college because of their athletic skill, that's going to put more pressure on them. You know, these people are paying me money. I know I need to succeed because of that. You got to be really stable and really grounded to deal with all that at that young age.
00:53:44:22 - 00:54:22:15
Speaker 1
I think colleges or colleges understand that, athletic departments understand that, and they are moving as quickly as they can. And at the highest levels anyway, to try to rectify or at least deal with the issue. You know, a lot of times they're coming from behind as we've had this onslaught of mental health issues. But there are athletic departments that have been, you know, five, six, seven, eight mental health professionals just there to deal with their athletes.
00:54:22:17 - 00:54:29:12
Speaker 1
And that's that's a recognition of the severity of the issue. And,
00:54:29:12 - 00:54:57:20
Speaker 1
you know, I was there are other programs that are available for obviously for for non athletes for the entire student body. Some I think by and large, mental health departments on college campuses are underwater. They're not prepared for the for the need that's out there. There are programs out there that help these kids help themselves.
00:54:57:20 - 00:55:06:08
Speaker 1
I was on the board of the Jordan Portico Foundation for a number of years. They have peer counseling programs that they
00:55:06:08 - 00:55:22:20
Speaker 1
put on at hundreds of campuses across the country. And they've they help I mean, obviously, they teach kids to look not only to look for signs and their friends, but what to do if they see those signs and and that sort of thing is invaluable.
00:55:22:20 - 00:56:09:09
Speaker 1
And until colleges can catch up to the number of mental health professionals they need, the kids are going to have to help each other. And that's awful to say out loud. But that's just the way things are right now. Yeah, Yeah. Yes, I do. I do. I have probably more than 20 years now and I you know, I go every 4 to 6 weeks and sort of a check in and find it very helpful.
00:56:09:09 - 00:56:36:03
Speaker 1
And it's been the same person. So she knows me very well. You know, she, we, you know, we can sort of I can cut right to the issue rather than having that person have to get to know me. I have I teach her sometimes that,
00:56:36:03 - 00:56:41:07
Speaker 1
said to me at one point, I think you're my second longest patient in ten years.
00:56:41:07 - 00:56:47:13
Speaker 1
I said, Well, that doesn't speak very well for your skills, does it?
00:56:47:13 - 00:56:53:20
Speaker 1
But yeah, she's terrific. And, you know, obviously it's a it's not a friendship relationship,
00:56:53:20 - 00:57:19:09
Speaker 1
but we have a rapport that you would like to have with your close friends. And, you know, that's good. You know, who wouldn't want that or, you know, who couldn't benefit from that.
00:57:19:11 - 00:57:43:08
Speaker 1
Right. And you're going to and it's like dating. You're to kiss a frog or two, you know? But when you find that person who can help and you begin to see the benefits of that help, then your wonder why you dilly dally. You know, I mean, it's these people are good at what they do, and it's just a question of finding the right person.
00:57:43:10 - 00:58:17:20
Speaker 1
And you have to be patient with them and with yourself. And until you do find the right person and then then you'll benefit. But yeah, well, yeah, I know. And you but you know, it's certainly what my generation do with. Oh, just spit on it, rub some, spit on it and you'll be fine, you know, get up, get up and play the next play.
00:58:17:22 - 00:59:03:01
Speaker 1
You know, do the next story, whatever. But sometimes it's a little more complicated than that. And, you know, we we all, all of us dig holes for ourselves in various ways And figuring out why you do that and figuring out how to stop digging is is what these people are good at doing.
00:59:03:03 - 00:59:44:00
Speaker 1
I'm trying to think of the technical term. Is chocolate. Just chocolate always? Yeah. No, I, I mostly I just take a deep breath and think a you know, just let this, you know, let this happen. Figure out what it is that's making you sad or making you anxious and then try to do something about it. And if you can't figure it out on your own, then go ask somebody for help, you know, whether it's a therapist or a colleague or a mentor or, you know, depending on what the issue is.
00:59:44:00 - 01:00:02:08
Speaker 1
But ask for help and but but dark chocolate is pretty helpful to. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
01:00:23:18 - 01:00:40:24
Speaker 1
Well, it was absolutely the way I grieved was I would wake up, I wasn't sleeping well and I would wake up before dawn and I would go downstairs so that I didn't wake anybody up and just sit at the kitchen table and type whatever was in my head.
01:00:41:05 - 01:01:17:15
Speaker 1
And just to get it out was helpful. And I didn't go back and read it. Probably I didn't go back and read all of it until I started to formulate the ideas for the book. And it was some of it was stream of consciousness, some of it was a boring diary, but some of it was really a good roadmap of where I had been and what how my brain was working and what I was concerned about at that point and to see where I am now as opposed to then was helpful.
01:01:17:17 - 01:02:00:05
Speaker 1
Do I still do it now? Not not so much in terms of Max and in my grief, I am part of that. Honestly, Cassidy has been because I have been talking to people about the book. That's been very helpful to me, both in not only dealing with my own grief, but in formulating new ideas as people ask me questions and as I'm talking out loud, my brain starts making connections that I didn't make before I started talking about the book.
01:02:00:05 - 01:02:36:02
Speaker 1
So in that sense, it's been very helpful. But in terms of you sitting down and typing my heart out in my laptop, I don't do that so much anymore. Yes. Yeah, that that would be that's a nice way to think about it. And if I can come up with that much more that I need to say, I would certainly do it.
01:02:36:02 - 01:02:40:23
Speaker 1
Okay.
01:02:40:23 - 01:02:41:22
Speaker 1
Far away.
01:02:41:22 - 01:03:38:12
Speaker 1
Okay. Right. And, and you know, and again, I think that's applying the thoughts of the way we think to that person who's clearly not thinking. The only thing selfish to me about suicide is wanting that pain to end. And I'm sure there are cases where people in their lives for other reasons, but I think the vast majority of them just want the pain to stop.
01:03:38:14 - 01:04:04:16
Speaker 1
You know, there has been research that people that have attempted suicide and failed, you know, they're they get as soon as they begin the act, they realize, oh, this is a mistake. That might be I don't know. I don't know how true that is in terms of how much research has been done along those lines. I have read that.
01:04:04:18 - 01:04:43:08
Speaker 1
But it's an illness. And again, I think it's a think of it in terms of them being selfish does not does not think of it as an illness and does not think of that person being in them and the amount of pain that clearly we cannot imagine. If we could imagine that, we wouldn't think of it as a selfish act.
01:04:43:10 - 01:04:47:15
Speaker 1
Well, that's a very perceptive question. With me.
01:04:47:15 - 01:05:23:17
Speaker 1
And and I do talk in the book about our marriage and and what you know, there is research that parents who lose a child, half of them go on to get a divorce. Well, David Kessler, who is probably the foremost American expert on grief, said I listen to a podcast he did with Brené Brown and he said, it's not the grief that causes the split in a marriage.
01:05:23:17 - 01:05:27:10
Speaker 1
It's judging one another's grief. You know,
01:05:27:10 - 01:05:43:16
Speaker 1
why do you feel guilty or why don't you feel guilty? Why don't you go to the cemetery? Why do you go somewhere? I don't know. How come you're not crying every day? Why do you cry every day? You know, you have to let people deal with it the best way they can.
01:05:43:18 - 01:06:02:21
Speaker 1
And Meg and I figure that out. Well, that's kind of. We have given each other a lot of space in our relationship from really the time we began dating. Let's see, today's Monday, almost 40 years ago. So and
01:06:02:21 - 01:06:13:07
Speaker 1
know, all we said to our daughters, we have two daughters. Max was the middle child. All we ever said to our daughters is we don't care how you grieve, but you must grieve.
01:06:13:07 - 01:06:44:23
Speaker 1
You must do something to get the grief out of your system, as much of it as you can. Because if you don't control how it comes out, then it will control how it comes out. And that may not be convenient for the rest of your life. You can't hold it in your arm, will get tired, you know, And I, I compared it to holding a beach ball underwater.
01:06:45:00 - 01:07:09:13
Speaker 1
At some point you let go and the beach ball will explode out of the water. And you really you that was in terms of our relationship, one generation to the next. We just said to deal with it, you need to go to therapy, go to therapy, You need to quit your job and, you know, do something else. Whatever you need to do, do it.
01:07:09:13 - 01:07:29:07
Speaker 1
But but do something. So and they did it differently. But they they both have dealt and continue to deal with it.
01:07:29:07 - 01:08:00:02
Speaker 1
I feel less. Yeah, I was obviously angry. It would have been very easy to be angry and stay angry. I just didn't see where me being angry was going to change anything. You know, I was I was mad at Max initially, sure, but I was just wasted energy.
01:08:00:02 - 01:08:25:10
Speaker 1
You know, the it's the Alcoholics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous line, you know, or prayer, you know, give me whatever I can do to change and to know what I can't change and the wisdom of the difference. I'm butchering it. But it's something along those lines. I you know, I just decided not initially, I don't want to tell you. I just woke up, went, oh, gee, that's too bad.
01:08:25:10 - 01:09:13:06
Speaker 1
But I kind of figured out me being angry was not going to help. And it was I had so little energy. I had so many things to deal with. I didn't want to spend my energy on anger. Yes, Well, and exactly. I think we're we're better about men showing their feelings. I think men are better about showing their feelings.
01:09:13:06 - 01:09:17:10
Speaker 1
I think the younger generation is better about it.
01:09:17:10 - 01:09:34:07
Speaker 1
I'm not a very good public crier. I wish I were I grew up as a public crier and I was so scarred by that. You know what that said about me as a child? I would be embarrassed that I cried as a kid. And so I kind of learned to stop.
01:09:34:07 - 01:09:59:15
Speaker 1
And now I wish I was I wish I was good at it again. But I you know, we went to a wedding Saturday and I teared up, so I which I didn't use it. Yeah. So that's a start. But I yeah, I, I felt about being open about grief, the way I felt about being open about Max's death, you know,
01:09:59:15 - 01:10:05:05
Speaker 1
if it made somebody else feel uncomfortable, that was not my problem, you know?
01:10:05:05 - 01:10:11:09
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. You're uncomfortable with my pain. You know, but I'm still. I'm. I'm in pain
01:10:11:09 - 01:10:12:08
Speaker 1
and,
01:10:12:08 - 01:10:27:24
Speaker 1
you know, that's. You don't have to get out and shout at me in your front yard every day. But I think it's people as I say, if you you know, we discussed earlier, if you get to a certain age, you're going to experience grief.
01:10:27:24 - 01:11:01:15
Speaker 1
And if we are more outwardly honest about it and open about it, I think it would help everybody. Well, I think a lot of the things we've discussed is, you know, acknowledging the fact that it was a suicide, acknowledging the fact that it's an illness, it's not a character defect.
01:11:01:15 - 01:11:24:05
Speaker 1
And those to me are the main things. And, um, you know, to not be ashamed that somebody was sick, you know, even if it's a you know, even if society has taught us that, I think those are the biggest points.
01:11:24:07 - 01:12:03:04
Speaker 1
You know, the more open we are about it, the better we will learn not only as individuals but as a society to deal with it. That. Yes, well, it's grieving in general. Right. And I don't know that there's any suicides specific grief that other than being open about it that I can think of right now, I, I think
01:12:03:04 - 01:12:06:02
Speaker 1
well, let me put it this way.
01:12:06:04 - 01:12:45:20
Speaker 1
Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook wrote a book about after her husband died several years ago with Adam Grant, who is a professor at Penn and a terrific writer. Psychologist, sort of not a psychologist per se. But anyway, they wrote a book called Option B, and in it and it was a bestseller several years ago. And it does a great job of explaining how best to comfort your your friends and acquaintances who have lost someone.
01:12:45:22 - 01:13:08:00
Speaker 1
And the two things that I took away from the book that were very helpful and that that I really appreciated when they were applied to me by others as one. Don't say to me, is there anything I can do, or if there's anything I can do, please call me, because then that's one more thing that I have to do as a as a grieving dad.
01:13:08:00 - 01:13:32:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh, okay, great. I get to be a you know, I get the same task. Now, just just go do it. Bring me dinner, come rake my yard, you know, walk my dog. You know, I woke up one morning and my neighbors were shoveling our driveway, you know, So just go do don't ask for permission. You know, obviously, you know, I'm at the grocery store.
01:13:32:23 - 01:14:00:18
Speaker 1
I'm bringing you a roasted chicken, you know, something like that or a 12 pack, whatever they need, you know, And and the other is the the theory of the circle of grief is that there are concentric circles of grief. You know, the immediate family is the middle. And then outside of that are extended family and close friends and outside of that, as friends.
01:14:00:20 - 01:14:19:13
Speaker 1
And the rule is you extend and comfort inward and you don't ask for comfort from someone in more concentric circles than you, you know, like people who said to us,
01:14:19:13 - 01:14:32:05
Speaker 1
you know, I'm really struggling with Max's death like they expected us to help them. You know, that was a that was was not a nonstarter, but it was pretty close to nonstarter.
01:14:32:05 - 01:14:58:19
Speaker 1
You know, famously, a woman said to Meg couldn't come to the memorial service that we had for Max because it would have been too hard for her. Yeah. And Meg very, very graciously said, well, it's nice that you had a choice whether you could go or not. Yeah, but yeah. So
01:14:58:19 - 01:15:02:13
Speaker 1
don't ask somebody closer to the person than you do to help you.
01:15:02:13 - 01:15:13:07
Speaker 1
You go help them and, and, and just do something for them and they will so much appreciate it.
01:15:13:07 - 01:15:31:02
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah. Saturday at the wedding, I teared up.
01:15:31:02 - 01:15:37:23
Speaker 1
the wedding was a little bittersweet because it was a girl that my ex grew up with and that was actually that was hard.
01:15:38:00 - 01:15:53:00
Speaker 1
It was, but it was. She's so happy and her family was a beautiful wedding. And, you know, so that was a good thing. Yes.
01:15:53:00 - 01:16:12:23
Speaker 1
Oh, last night, because I was I'm traveling today and I picked up my airplane neck pillow. I wore the verdict award. This royal. You can't see it. Obviously, people. Why would you say I wore it vertically instead of horizontally over my head?
01:16:13:00 - 01:16:48:03
Speaker 1
And I walked into my wife and said, take a picture of this and send it to our girls and say, I don't understand how this pillow works. And so she we both got the giggles slapstick. Max was a max would have just looked at. He would have he would have had a great deadpan reaction to it. You know, what am I grateful for right now?
01:16:48:04 - 01:17:17:03
Speaker 1
I'm grateful for this conversation in a number for a number of reasons. You've been terrific and you obviously absorb the book and understood the message of it. And and I got to talk about Max a little bit and grief a little bit. So that's a good thing.
01:17:17:03 - 01:17:21:07
Speaker 1
Exercise, probably.
01:17:21:07 - 01:17:28:14
Speaker 1
and dark chocolate, as we said. Yes.
01:17:28:14 - 01:17:30:23
Speaker 1
Oh, I'm a nervous eater.
01:17:31:00 - 01:17:39:22
Speaker 1
Uh, or, and Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's everything in moderation, including moderation. Right? But I think
01:17:39:22 - 01:18:03:20
Speaker 1
the worst thing for my mental health is when I get too busy to stick to my routines of, of getting exercise as of stepping away from my computer, you know, it is, you know, that's it's a question of organization. The
01:18:03:20 - 01:18:27:12
Speaker 1
the rhythm that I hear when I sit down to try to write, you know, I think if you have written I've written for a living for more than 40 years and I, I it's hard to explain, but I can hear there's a certain rhythm to the words when I get them the way I want them.
01:18:27:14 - 01:18:37:08
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, I it's yeah, it's been fun.
01:18:37:08 - 01:18:55:10
Speaker 1
I have a limited yeah I have a limited. My wife will burst out laughing when I say this because she makes fun of me. Because if I make dinner, it's going to be a roasted chicken, but I can roast a hell of a chicken. So. Oh, sometimes.
01:18:55:10 - 01:19:46:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, that would be funnier. I could buy a really good roasted chicken. No, I. Yeah, not right. It's not my recipe, but I have toyed around with it. And so, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. No. Yeah, we had a saying in our house, you know, I used to say the girls when they were teenagers and want to get a tattoo.
01:19:46:19 - 01:20:02:18
Speaker 1
I said I would say, well what, when you were five years old, what tattoo would you have gotten? And she said, probably Barbie, I said you'd still have it. So that was my attitude about tattoos.
01:20:02:18 - 01:20:12:19
Speaker 1
I would probably do something like, uh, writer across it far, but I would misspell it like, leave that w off.
01:20:12:20 - 01:20:30:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, yeah. Yes, it would be very helpful. Yes.
01:20:30:14 - 01:20:42:07
Speaker 1
While the book is, as they say, wherever you buy your books, it's it's certainly on Amazon, it's certainly on Barnes and Noble website. It's in bookstores.
01:20:42:07 - 01:21:06:23
Speaker 1
my day job is I write for on three Ecom, which is a college sports website that started last August. And I'm writing about college football there and it's still fun.
01:21:07:00 - 01:21:08:04
Speaker 1
No,
01:21:08:04 - 01:21:37:14
Speaker 1
know, I would just say Max had a terrific sense of humor for somebody that was so quiet and he loved. I raised him on Marx Brothers and on Bob and Ray, who are a radio team, very dry comedians, to the point that he and I would just repeat, punch to one another to make points from from their recordings.
01:21:37:16 - 01:22:23:12
Speaker 1
And if you've never heard Bob and Ray are in honor of Max go listen to if you if you go on to YouTube and and type in slow talkers of America that is Yes, that is their signature one of their signature bits. And it's very funny. Terrific. Well, and thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.
01:22:23:12 - 01:22:24:04
Speaker 1
and thank.
01:22:24:04 - 01:22:26:10
Speaker 2
You wonderful human for listening.
01:22:26:10 - 01:22:32:20
Speaker 1
To this episode of mentally together I Cassidy Quinn we'll see you next time in the next few weeks.
01:22:32:20 - 01:22:39:20
Speaker 2
Because we are just getting back into the podcast game. We're trying to set realistic expectations for our selves.
01:22:39:22 - 01:22:42:03
Speaker 1
Okay, so I will see you.
01:22:42:05 - 01:22:44:12
Speaker 2
Or you will see me or hear me.
01:22:44:12 - 01:22:45:01
Speaker 1
Soon.
01:22:45:01 - 01:22:47:05
Speaker 1
In the meantime, go do something nice.
01:22:47:05 - 01:22:48:01
Speaker 2
For your brain.
01:22:48:01 - 01:22:51:04
Speaker 1
Today. Go let some of your feelings out.
01:22:51:04 - 01:22:52:05
Speaker 2
Have a big cry.
01:22:52:11 - 01:22:54:24
Speaker 1
Eat some chocolate. Read Ivan's book.
01:22:55:04 - 01:23:12:00
Speaker 2
I keep trying to catch his eye or go on YouTube and watch Bob and Ray's slow Talkers of America in honor of Max. Whatever will make your day just a little bit better. Because remember, we are all just trying to keep ourselves mentally together.
01:23:12:13 - 01:23:35:11
