Time Travel Through the Classical Canon: Xenophon Press, Emotional Mastery & the Future of Horsemanship with Richard Williams EP 47

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This file was generated by Descript
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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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audience, for helping to make this happen.
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If you like what we do here,
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.
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So now let's jump in.
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All right, I have Richard Williams.
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Richard Williams is the publisher of a
niche publishing company, which happens
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to be international called Zenon Press,
named after the Greek philosopher
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Zenon, but it's an equine largely
classical equine publishing company.
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Why is it named after a Greek philosopher?
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Because Xon, the Greek philosopher
Xenophon, was also a master horseman
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who not, was not just the pupil
of Socrates and the best mate
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and perhaps a bit rival of Plato.
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But he also wrote the first European book.
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That we know of on what we
would today called dressage.
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And he was also a military
dude and many other things too.
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So he is an all round educated bloke
from Greece about 3000 years ago,
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and Richard Williams, who publishes
the Zenon presses publishing the
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canon of Creed of this tradition that
those of us who are horse nerds have
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inherited and he's keeping it alive.
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If you think about the Library of
Alexandria, the legendary library of
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Alexandria before it burned, or think
about what's housed in Oxford University
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or Heidelberg University or Harvard, or
any of these August institutions that
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keep we, we trust them to kind of keep
these canons of human knowledge going.
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Even if we never look at them,
that's what Xenophon Press is.
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But Xenophon Press, of course, is
more practical, is we do actually
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still train our horses from this.
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As you can imagine, this being a bit
of a niche thing, it's not exactly
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gonna make you the kind of money that
going off to be an MBA and working for
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multinationals in Dubai might make you,
you have to be passionate about this.
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It really is, at the end of the day,
an act of philosophy, an act of love.
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So, Richard, I have been reading
and working from these books
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of yours for quite a while now.
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I think I'm into my second decade of it.
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And you keep 'em coming and
you keep publishing them.
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It's not making you a vast amount of
money, but you are contributing to
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Western civilization in a huge way.
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Why on earth do you do this?
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How do you do this?
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How do you kinda make it work?
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And what can we learn?
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From this, thank you for
coming on the show over to you.
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Why you do this?
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Richard Williams: Well, thank
you for the introduction.
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Why?
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It's a couple of, couple of reasons.
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First of all, I really wanna learn,
and I realize that what I want
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to learn might not even be widely
known by people who are alive today.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Richard Williams: And or
if they are alive today,
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I'm not that portable, so I can't
necessarily get to, you know, this little
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village in Portugal or, you know, the
hill town in Vienna or outside of Vienna.
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I can't necessarily travel around.
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. So this loving to learn I couldn't
necessarily transport myself around.
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And at the time when the
opportunity to buy Fin Press came
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up, I, we were living in a remote
area and we had two small kids.
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And when I was a bachelor, I could
go to Europe and did go to Europe
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and travel around the country
and take lessons from whomever.
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And I basically looked at my wife,
my lovely wife, Francis, my better
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half, and said tag, you're it.
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You're my writing teacher now,
and I'm your writing teacher,
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and that's all we have.
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And then.
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Basically what I realized when this
opportunity came up to buy Zenif and
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press, it was owned by Ivan Belov.
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He was in his eighties and not really
able to continue and having failing health
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and his wife's health was failing and he
couldn't really fulfill the books I had,
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he couldn't fulfill orders for books.
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And I said, look, I don't want any
of these books to go outta print,
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so I don't wanna overstep, but if
you want help with this, if you
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want me to ship out your books for
you, I would be happy to do that.
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Or anything that made sense to
keep your, what you started here
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to keep it alive let me know.
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And he said, well, that's good to know.
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And nobody else had made him that offer.
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And then within.
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Six months or a year he
asked me to purchase.
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So what what I realize now in hindsight
is that this le doing these books, you
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end up having to read the books when you
edit them or translate them and edit them.
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If somebody else is doing the translation,
you end up having to read as a publisher.
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And I'm the publisher slash editor
Francis is the acquisitions editor.
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So if I am too close to the book
and can't see mistakes or can't
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see areas that could be improved,
then I have Francis look at it.
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Just could you have a, and she'll
go through the entire book.
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But I realized what I could do
is I could actually time travel.
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One of the first books that we did
with this was Dom Diago de Braganza
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dressage in the French tradition.
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He was a Portuguese master,
a friend of Nuna Oliveira's a
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sometimes riding with Nuna Olivera.
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But this guy was, oh, like today, he would
probably be, you know, 96 or a hundred.
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He passed away a few years ago.
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But I basically got to meet his
equestrian knowledge through through
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translating or helping the translator.
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You know, refine his
translation, reading that book.
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So I got to meet this guy and also
the distillation of his, of an entire
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lifetime of equestrian knowledge.
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And so then I said, well, it's great that
I had, you know, a teacher here and a
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teacher there, one of which is in Vienna,
one's in Budapest, one's in California.
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But I'm not there now.
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So this is a way to not just trans,
I could actually time travel,
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but also space travel, right?
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I could travel and, and
glean this information.
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So that was magical because I said to
myself, well, what if the person that
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knows the answer to the question that
I'm seeking is possibly no longer living?
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What if they were from
a different century?
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Just because they were in a different
century doesn't make them invalid.
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We all have finite lifetimes.
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So this is what I really love about it is
because sometimes I feel, you know, I was
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maybe born in the wrong century, you know?
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Do you ever have that feeling
like you should have been born
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in the 1930s or, you know,
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Rupert Isaacson: I'm disabused from that.
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Anytime I go to the dentist and then I'm
like, actually I'm, I'm quite happy to be
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Richard Williams: that whole new set of,
you know, teeth that you got by, you know,
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just dropping a few thousand is fine.
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Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Richard Williams: So there, of course,
we're having the benefit, we get the
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benefit of the modern convenience of
today's world and advances in science.
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But we also, we also should not
be turning our, our back on these
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people who basically often lived
right next door to or above, or in
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an apartment adjacent to the stables.
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They didn't have the internet, they
didn't have tv, they didn't have
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movies, they didn't have automobiles.
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If they wanted to go
anywhere, they had to.
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Saddle up a horse or they had to
get their carriage together with
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horses and then go somewhere Right.
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With their horses.
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So they were spending, but if
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Rupert Isaacson: the horse failed
them, they had a real problem.
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They might die.
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Yeah.
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Richard Williams: Right, right.
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And but they, they, and they were
spending all of their waking hours horse.
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Right.
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It was all about the horse.
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So we don't even have people today
that are really, we have very, very
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few people today who are doing that,
where they're immersed, completely
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immersed, not just for, like, I
go for an a week long immersion,
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but I go for a lifelong immersion.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Richard Williams: So yeah,
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Rupert Isaacson: I, I think you've,
you've, you've hit your, you put your
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finger on the word classical, which
is that classical means something that
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endures down the generations and is
past from generation to generation.
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I got it from grandma, and
she got it from her grandma.
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Why?
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Because it still functions,
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Richard Williams: right?
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And the the thing is like if we're
trying to learn technology that's
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up to date in 1920, you know what?
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We're going to be completely out of date
because technology has actually changed.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it's changing.
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And the rate of change of
technology and industry, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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Is, is always changing.
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If you're up to speed for the 1920, you
know, internet protocols and the thing
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that's going on there, you're five years
outta date or six years outta date.
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But the thing that keeps bringing us back
to why this knowledge doesn't need to
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change that much is because the horse.
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The horse as an entity really
actually hasn't changed that much.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Richard Williams: They still
respond in the same ways.
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They still have the same needs.
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It's a grazing animal.
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You know, it's not a piece of machinery
that we're like a, like an Nvidia chip
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that is going, you know, a thousand times
faster than it did a half a year ago.
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It's, that's not happening with horses.
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They're keeping us grounded in
that reality, and that's what,
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that is the primary reason why the
knowledge that they had in 1729.
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You can read that and just say, okay,
well maybe we've had advances in shoeing
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and we know a little bit more about
the biochemistry of feeding, but in
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terms of the way the horse actually
responds to us and our training and
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our seat and our exercises, we must.
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Avail.
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I think we have to avail ourselves of
what they knew then, because these people
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were spending, you know, 12 hours in the
barn, a a day, 365 times the lifetime.
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So they learn, they have
way more time in the barn.
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I mean, you have a lot of time in the
barn and around horses, and so do I, but
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we also have other things that we do.
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Mm-hmm.
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So we don't, we can't even compete
with the amount of exposure, the
00:12:36.336 --> 00:12:38.856
trial and error that these people had.
00:12:38.856 --> 00:12:43.376
So that's what makes them, that's
what, why you know, Gustav Steinbach
00:12:44.276 --> 00:12:49.856
is, you know, knows what he's talking
about because he basically lived it.
00:12:50.366 --> 00:12:50.996
He lived it.
00:12:51.026 --> 00:12:51.116
Mm-hmm.
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And we don't, even, even the experts that
we have today, they didn't have that.
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This kind of same exposure.
00:12:57.656 --> 00:12:58.976
Very, very few people.
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Rupert Isaacson: Very,
it's an interesting thing.
00:13:01.526 --> 00:13:03.026
Let's go back to Xenophon himself.
00:13:03.026 --> 00:13:03.401
You know, your.
00:13:04.241 --> 00:13:05.681
Press is named after Xenophon.
00:13:06.011 --> 00:13:13.241
Xenophon is the ultimate sort of classical
example because all we horse people, if
00:13:13.241 --> 00:13:17.921
we have any sense read him and then we
read all the people that came after him.
00:13:19.181 --> 00:13:21.491
But he's not just taught as a horse dude.
00:13:21.491 --> 00:13:25.031
He's taught at West Point Military
Academy or a Sandhurst military
00:13:25.031 --> 00:13:30.671
Academy as the master of the tactical
retreat for having brought 10,000 Greek
00:13:30.671 --> 00:13:35.141
mercenaries more or less safely home,
out of enemy territory from Baghdad
00:13:35.381 --> 00:13:40.141
to Greece on foot in 300 BC or so.
00:13:40.581 --> 00:13:42.171
And then 400 bc.
00:13:42.231 --> 00:13:47.671
And then he is also taught in
philosophy schools as the complement
00:13:47.671 --> 00:13:51.686
to Plato and perhaps he's the father
of stoic philosophy and so on.
00:13:51.691 --> 00:13:54.691
And so, and the point is
that there's relevance.
00:13:55.081 --> 00:13:57.091
So much relevance today.
00:13:57.706 --> 00:14:02.236
Still from people like that, whether
they're in military tactic, you
00:14:02.236 --> 00:14:05.396
know, tactics or whether they're
in philosophy or whether they're in
00:14:05.396 --> 00:14:10.616
horsemanship or no matter or science
or no matter what they're in, I
00:14:10.616 --> 00:14:14.156
agree to take a modernist approach
00:14:16.856 --> 00:14:22.136
puts the lie to where
modernism, what modernism is.
00:14:22.136 --> 00:14:25.916
'cause modernism comes out of the
thing that came before modernism and
00:14:25.916 --> 00:14:27.896
we think, oh, something's ancient.
00:14:28.196 --> 00:14:32.576
Well, it wasn't ancient when it was
written, and so it still works today.
00:14:32.606 --> 00:14:32.936
You know?
00:14:32.936 --> 00:14:35.246
Then we're talking, actually,
what we're actually talking
00:14:35.246 --> 00:14:36.806
about is the present moment.
00:14:37.166 --> 00:14:42.026
And I think when people are putting
their mindfulness hats on and
00:14:42.026 --> 00:14:46.076
that sort of thing, talking about
the present moment, what's often
00:14:46.076 --> 00:14:48.896
forgotten is that the past and the
future are also the present moment.
00:14:49.526 --> 00:14:53.126
There are all these present
moments and I feel that you are
00:14:54.056 --> 00:14:55.946
making those available, but.
00:14:56.816 --> 00:15:01.466
Why the passion for it and why the passion
for this particular type of riding.
00:15:01.466 --> 00:15:02.666
Why, why aren't you roping?
00:15:02.666 --> 00:15:03.476
Why aren't you jumping?
00:15:03.476 --> 00:15:05.576
Why aren't you riding races?
00:15:05.576 --> 00:15:10.286
What, what, what is it about this,
what they call classical riding?
00:15:10.736 --> 00:15:17.641
What is it that makes it so addictive that
you would consign yourself to, in order
00:15:17.741 --> 00:15:20.006
to be able to bring out all these books?
00:15:20.086 --> 00:15:21.526
Why is it so beautiful?
00:15:22.696 --> 00:15:29.056
Richard Williams: I think it comes down
to basically, you know, one or two words.
00:15:29.056 --> 00:15:31.126
It comes down to truth.
00:15:31.216 --> 00:15:35.026
It really comes down to,
you know, is it true?
00:15:36.826 --> 00:15:37.936
Is it kind?
00:15:39.046 --> 00:15:39.946
Is it helpful?
00:15:40.366 --> 00:15:46.126
You know, it, it, it is basically
that, you know, so we can come up
00:15:46.126 --> 00:15:53.056
with ways of tricking horses or
signaling horses to tall with their
00:15:53.056 --> 00:15:57.796
right front leg seven times as we
scratch them on the wither seven times.
00:15:57.796 --> 00:16:05.506
We can, we can do cues, but the
classical, the classical methodology,
00:16:05.656 --> 00:16:13.186
and that's kind of how I sort, what I
keep is like if it speaks a language,
00:16:13.186 --> 00:16:17.566
you try it with a horse and you
try it a few, a few different ways.
00:16:17.776 --> 00:16:21.226
If you try it with a horse and it
works, and wait a minute, this horse
00:16:21.226 --> 00:16:23.746
just got brought to you like last week.
00:16:24.556 --> 00:16:29.836
We don't even know what this horse's
training is, but if you try this
00:16:30.286 --> 00:16:36.226
method that is in that classical
cannon, it helps the horse.
00:16:36.991 --> 00:16:37.771
Understand.
00:16:37.771 --> 00:16:39.961
It helps you communicate with the horse.
00:16:40.021 --> 00:16:45.541
It helps you convey your intention
to the horse, and there is a back and
00:16:45.541 --> 00:16:49.891
forth then, then it's worth keeping.
00:16:50.191 --> 00:16:50.371
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
00:16:50.431 --> 00:16:56.851
Richard Williams: And we cannot, there's
no way that we can be so egotistical
00:16:56.851 --> 00:17:01.351
ourselves in our own life to say,
okay, well I'm, you know, 80 years or,
00:17:02.221 --> 00:17:08.461
you know, God willing, you know, and
in my vast experience, our, my vast
00:17:08.461 --> 00:17:13.831
experience or your vast experience in
your lifetime cannot compete with the
00:17:13.831 --> 00:17:20.581
thousands and thousands of horsemen
and horsewomen and horses over the
00:17:20.581 --> 00:17:24.391
thousands of years that has aggregated.
00:17:25.216 --> 00:17:32.386
This trial and error experience
and knowledge to distill, Hey,
00:17:32.596 --> 00:17:37.396
we tried a bunch of stuff,
this is actually what works.
00:17:38.176 --> 00:17:38.506
Hmm.
00:17:39.106 --> 00:17:44.896
So I don't think of myself
really as, oh, you, Richard,
00:17:44.896 --> 00:17:46.606
you're a dressage instructor.
00:17:46.606 --> 00:17:47.656
Not really.
00:17:47.656 --> 00:17:52.936
I really am trying to teach
horsemanship that works.
00:17:54.466 --> 00:17:55.216
Horsemanship.
00:17:55.216 --> 00:18:00.706
That actually works because it res, it
actually is effective with most horses,
00:18:00.706 --> 00:18:02.806
with most riders most of the time.
00:18:02.836 --> 00:18:03.826
A methodology.
00:18:03.826 --> 00:18:07.846
And I'm always trying to
add to that, refine that.
00:18:07.936 --> 00:18:13.576
Sometimes even dispense, maybe
say, Hey, I've decided something
00:18:13.576 --> 00:18:15.046
that I did 10 years ago.
00:18:15.046 --> 00:18:15.796
I'm now.
00:18:16.486 --> 00:18:21.496
Revising because I found in this
situation, I could do something different.
00:18:21.976 --> 00:18:29.536
So I, like, I teach people in western
saddles, I teach people you know, in dumb
00:18:29.536 --> 00:18:33.226
of a Cara saddles in English saddles.
00:18:33.376 --> 00:18:35.806
I teach quote unquote Western dressage.
00:18:35.806 --> 00:18:41.746
I even had a, a barn that I went to
where all the people were Western.
00:18:41.746 --> 00:18:43.816
It was a western barn.
00:18:44.116 --> 00:18:48.886
And they said, can you teach us to do,
you know, quote unquote side paths?
00:18:48.886 --> 00:18:50.056
And I'm like, yes.
00:18:50.116 --> 00:18:54.456
Among other things the only thing
I require is I do need you to
00:18:54.456 --> 00:18:57.846
have a bit that has a joint in it,
you know, a little snapple bit.
00:18:58.176 --> 00:19:02.226
Like that's really the only thing
that I, 'cause I, I can't really
00:19:02.226 --> 00:19:04.596
be doing this with a, a rigid bit.
00:19:05.076 --> 00:19:05.136
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
00:19:05.306 --> 00:19:07.706
Richard Williams: But you can ride
whatever saddle makes you feel
00:19:07.706 --> 00:19:11.426
comfortable or what you're going
to use when I'm, when I'm gone.
00:19:12.176 --> 00:19:15.626
I mean, the majority of people that
I teach are in English saddles.
00:19:15.956 --> 00:19:22.456
But I don't think of myself
as classical as being dressy.
00:19:22.456 --> 00:19:22.546
Right?
00:19:23.596 --> 00:19:30.136
I think of classical as being, this is
the methodology that has been handed down
00:19:30.626 --> 00:19:33.956
to us through trial and error experiment,
00:19:34.316 --> 00:19:34.406
Rupert Isaacson: right?
00:19:34.406 --> 00:19:36.116
But there is something beautiful about it.
00:19:36.116 --> 00:19:37.316
What is beautiful about it?
00:19:37.316 --> 00:19:40.316
Why is this way of writing like
it's aesthetically beautiful, right?
00:19:40.316 --> 00:19:41.456
It looks beautiful.
00:19:41.636 --> 00:19:42.956
Why does it look beautiful?
00:19:43.196 --> 00:19:44.426
How does it feel?
00:19:44.756 --> 00:19:45.986
Talk to us about that.
00:19:46.766 --> 00:19:49.826
Where does that beauty come
from, and why is that important?
00:19:50.516 --> 00:19:56.936
Richard Williams: The beauty is because
it is the, the classical way is like
00:19:56.936 --> 00:20:04.556
having the correct key in the door
and turning the latch that allows
00:20:05.126 --> 00:20:09.146
us to enter into the horse's being.
00:20:10.631 --> 00:20:16.901
It, it allows us to enter in store
instead of riding at the horse
00:20:17.591 --> 00:20:21.131
or on the horse or to the horse.
00:20:22.181 --> 00:20:29.051
We are riding with the horse if
we're really doing correct, correct.
00:20:29.111 --> 00:20:29.741
Riding.
00:20:29.771 --> 00:20:29.921
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
00:20:29.921 --> 00:20:32.321
So you become the center you are, if you
00:20:32.321 --> 00:20:32.411
Richard Williams: like,
00:20:32.561 --> 00:20:33.401
Rupert Isaacson: in the horse.
00:20:33.491 --> 00:20:37.961
Richard Williams: The horse actually
stops seeing you as a threat on his back
00:20:38.651 --> 00:20:46.271
and, and actually enjoys having you on
his back and wants to carry you around.
00:20:46.661 --> 00:20:55.301
And the, the, and that q you know, the
Q power that you get from riding horses
00:20:55.601 --> 00:20:59.711
is, it's like a life force for me.
00:20:59.711 --> 00:21:01.181
It's like a life force.
00:21:01.211 --> 00:21:06.281
Like, you know, I just saw something,
you know, where they were showing the
00:21:06.331 --> 00:21:11.861
where they were showing all of the
original actors of Star Trek and mm-hmm.
00:21:11.861 --> 00:21:15.571
You Scottie and, you
know, Le Leonard Nemoy.
00:21:16.021 --> 00:21:20.251
And, and we're in the
year right now, 2026.
00:21:20.611 --> 00:21:25.301
And, and I, and the last one
they show is William Shatner.
00:21:25.566 --> 00:21:25.986
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:21:26.166 --> 00:21:30.491
Richard Williams: And, and, and I said,
and then all these people had died in
00:21:30.491 --> 00:21:34.871
their sixties and seventies and you
know, some very early, unfortunately.
00:21:35.171 --> 00:21:35.561
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:21:35.801 --> 00:21:41.861
Richard Williams: And, and I said to
Francis, my better half, I said, do
00:21:41.861 --> 00:21:45.071
you realize how old William Shatner is?
00:21:45.071 --> 00:21:46.091
And he's still alive.
00:21:46.091 --> 00:21:47.981
He's 96 or 94.
00:21:48.701 --> 00:21:51.521
And she said to me, well, you know why he.
00:21:51.881 --> 00:21:54.191
You know why he is still alive.
00:21:55.841 --> 00:21:58.231
And I, I said, well, luck.
00:21:58.291 --> 00:21:58.651
No.
00:21:58.651 --> 00:22:02.461
And she said, no, he
continues to ride horses.
00:22:03.661 --> 00:22:04.501
He continues.
00:22:05.131 --> 00:22:05.551
Yeah.
00:22:05.551 --> 00:22:08.881
And it's, it bring, it's a life force.
00:22:09.291 --> 00:22:16.191
This interchange of energy between the
rider and the horse keeps us youthful.
00:22:17.001 --> 00:22:21.201
And she's a physician and, you
know, and has seen many, many
00:22:21.201 --> 00:22:22.881
lives and run a nursing home.
00:22:22.881 --> 00:22:27.231
And I, I really believe that
it's like, you know, for riders,
00:22:27.711 --> 00:22:33.221
her saying is once you, once you
stop riding, it's kind of over.
00:22:33.761 --> 00:22:33.941
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:22:34.631 --> 00:22:38.891
Richard Williams: So, you know,
I hope you and I, and all of our
00:22:38.891 --> 00:22:44.291
people that are listening to this
get to keep riding in some fashion.
00:22:44.351 --> 00:22:49.241
You know, you into our,
eighth or ninth decade?
00:22:49.481 --> 00:22:51.701
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know
what's interesting is when my son,
00:22:51.911 --> 00:22:54.881
you know the story, but you know,
when my son became verbal, he was
00:22:55.031 --> 00:22:58.031
autistic and nonverbal in the saddle
in front of me, and I found, mm-hmm.
00:22:58.601 --> 00:23:05.111
When I rode a horse in a way that
was towards that classical way.
00:23:05.141 --> 00:23:07.031
I didn't know so much
about it at the time.
00:23:07.381 --> 00:23:11.611
When I started riding in this collected
way with my son, which originally I
00:23:11.611 --> 00:23:16.061
was doing just for safety to make it
more balanced, I didn't really know
00:23:16.061 --> 00:23:17.561
the system behind it at that point.
00:23:18.011 --> 00:23:20.171
It felt very, very beautiful.
00:23:20.171 --> 00:23:21.821
Like it felt beautiful.
00:23:22.271 --> 00:23:27.821
And we all go and look at those pictures
from the Barak era and the classical
00:23:27.821 --> 00:23:32.321
era of Greece and Rome and whatever, and
we see horses in this very round shape
00:23:32.771 --> 00:23:38.261
and this very round shape with elevated
movement looks aesthetically beautiful.
00:23:38.471 --> 00:23:41.141
That's why they made paintings
of it and did sculptures of it.
00:23:41.381 --> 00:23:44.471
And that same feeling of beauty,
of course, translates through your
00:23:44.471 --> 00:23:45.761
body when you're on the horse.
00:23:45.821 --> 00:23:50.321
My son became verbal and then
neuroscientists explained
00:23:50.321 --> 00:23:51.731
to me later, oh yeah.
00:23:51.881 --> 00:23:55.301
The reason that feels beautiful
Rupert is 'cause it act is actually
00:23:55.901 --> 00:23:57.281
making you produce a hormone.
00:23:57.701 --> 00:24:01.601
It's rocking your hips in this
rhythmic way, not unlike making
00:24:01.601 --> 00:24:03.521
love, not unlike dancing.
00:24:03.581 --> 00:24:06.251
And when you do those things you produce.
00:24:06.971 --> 00:24:08.261
The hormone oxytocin.
00:24:08.891 --> 00:24:14.231
Oxytocin is the best physical
feeling of all of the happy hormones.
00:24:14.231 --> 00:24:17.201
You've got your dopamine, you
got your endorphins, you got your
00:24:17.201 --> 00:24:19.421
serotonin, and you got your oxytocin.
00:24:19.421 --> 00:24:25.531
Oxytocin is the one that gives you
the really ecstatic feel, and it's
00:24:25.531 --> 00:24:27.181
there to make you communicate.
00:24:27.181 --> 00:24:28.531
It's a hormone of communication.
00:24:28.741 --> 00:24:33.571
So of course you also communicate
cross species with this other
00:24:33.571 --> 00:24:37.411
animal and across the predator prey
barrier, which is almost miraculous.
00:24:37.651 --> 00:24:39.451
And then of course there's
the aesthetic side.
00:24:39.601 --> 00:24:44.611
Now, I didn't know all that before
I started doing it, but once the
00:24:44.611 --> 00:24:48.031
neuroscientists explained to me,
to me, I was like, oh, well that
00:24:48.031 --> 00:24:52.291
makes perfect sense then why people
would've pursued this as an art for
00:24:52.681 --> 00:24:54.271
hundreds of years, thousands of years.
00:24:54.271 --> 00:24:58.771
Because not only is it really functional,
you can stop, start, spin, catch a
00:24:58.771 --> 00:25:03.271
cow, fight a bull, fight another man on
horseback, but you can also heal yourself.
00:25:04.306 --> 00:25:11.146
Arm of mental illness because it
feels so good and it makes you
00:25:11.146 --> 00:25:16.636
communicate within your species,
cross species with nature in general.
00:25:16.726 --> 00:25:21.466
You're open for communication 'cause
of the oxytocin and the sciences.
00:25:21.856 --> 00:25:26.116
Arts and sciences of course,
are completely connected to
00:25:26.476 --> 00:25:28.516
the classical riding thing.
00:25:28.516 --> 00:25:31.516
We've talked about xenophon
having been a philosopher,
00:25:31.996 --> 00:25:34.006
having been a military tactician.
00:25:34.586 --> 00:25:39.536
And philosophy, of course, back in the
ancient Greek era was not limited to
00:25:39.536 --> 00:25:41.306
sitting around talking about stuff.
00:25:41.726 --> 00:25:43.166
It meant science as well.
00:25:43.166 --> 00:25:45.026
It meant anything that was inquiry.
00:25:45.606 --> 00:25:47.556
So all these guys were
playing with the sciences.
00:25:47.826 --> 00:25:51.786
And then I've noticed in a lot of
the books that you've published,
00:25:52.416 --> 00:25:56.586
is a from the 18, from the
17th century is a good example.
00:25:56.946 --> 00:25:58.776
From the 18th century is a good example.
00:25:58.776 --> 00:26:01.416
Eisenberg from the 18th century
is a good example there.
00:26:01.446 --> 00:26:07.986
A lot of these people are talking about
the link between classical riding,
00:26:08.316 --> 00:26:13.296
effectively three dimensional riding,
not just going from point A to point B,
00:26:13.296 --> 00:26:17.436
but going to the side to side, going up
in the air, going down to the ground,
00:26:17.436 --> 00:26:24.156
going backwards, spinning, being able
to do this in a soft, non-resistant way.
00:26:25.116 --> 00:26:30.936
There being a real correlation between
people that do this and people that
00:26:30.936 --> 00:26:35.076
do arts and sciences and that you need
academies that teach all of this stuff.
00:26:35.286 --> 00:26:38.706
Can you go into a little bit of this
history and you publish all these people?
00:26:38.706 --> 00:26:40.236
Why were they saying this?
00:26:40.596 --> 00:26:41.976
Why were they noticing?
00:26:42.366 --> 00:26:46.926
This link between this type of riding
and training of a horse and this type of
00:26:46.926 --> 00:26:51.366
mind that could then go into the sciences
and the arts and further on from there.
00:26:52.056 --> 00:26:53.376
Talk to us about this link.
00:26:55.006 --> 00:26:58.246
Richard Williams: I'm looking
to see if I have a copy of
00:26:58.246 --> 00:27:00.646
that book, if you don't mind.
00:27:00.796 --> 00:27:01.006
It,
00:27:01.186 --> 00:27:01.846
Rupert Isaacson: which one?
00:27:01.846 --> 00:27:02.116
Blue.
00:27:02.121 --> 00:27:03.466
Blue Al or
00:27:03.646 --> 00:27:09.256
Richard Williams: no, it, the one that
I'm looking for is the one by Toni.
00:27:09.826 --> 00:27:11.116
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yes.
00:27:11.296 --> 00:27:13.966
While you're looking for it,
I'm gonna tell the, the viewers
00:27:13.966 --> 00:27:14.716
and readers what that is.
00:27:14.716 --> 00:27:19.936
So there's a really good book that's
by the Xon Press, by an Italian
00:27:19.936 --> 00:27:22.216
author and academic called Tamini.
00:27:22.806 --> 00:27:26.466
And I think you need to find
his age of chivalry website.
00:27:26.466 --> 00:27:28.616
He really goes into this he.
00:27:29.336 --> 00:27:37.056
Wrote a very good book recently about
the early Renaissance Italian masters
00:27:37.416 --> 00:27:44.346
and how they founded academies based upon
the idea of Socrates, Zenon, and Plato.
00:27:44.616 --> 00:27:48.646
But, you know, a couple of thousand
years later where you could come to learn
00:27:48.736 --> 00:27:55.336
usually in Naples, but then they grew
out from Naples the arts of horsemanship
00:27:55.336 --> 00:28:02.011
riding, but also fencing, mathematics,
languages astronomy you name it.
00:28:02.836 --> 00:28:08.596
And the reason was that rather
than just teaching people how to
00:28:08.596 --> 00:28:16.516
be warriors on horseback, they were
now teaching people to be diplomats
00:28:17.056 --> 00:28:22.786
so that you would go into a foreign
court and be able to hold your own.
00:28:23.191 --> 00:28:27.721
In the saddle, in conversation, in
science, et cetera, et cetera, and
00:28:27.721 --> 00:28:32.671
you would be perceived as a man
of, of who is, who's cultivated
00:28:32.671 --> 00:28:37.761
and civilized and three dimensional
what we now call a Renaissance man.
00:28:38.061 --> 00:28:40.101
But it starts, of course, in
the actual Renaissance and it
00:28:40.281 --> 00:28:42.561
horsemanship at the key with this can.
00:28:42.771 --> 00:28:43.701
Yeah.
00:28:43.761 --> 00:28:45.921
I've, I've given a bit of
preamble to Thomas Sini.
00:28:45.921 --> 00:28:46.821
Take, take us in.
00:28:47.631 --> 00:28:50.781
Richard Williams: So this is the
book is that, is that visible?
00:28:50.811 --> 00:28:52.491
Rupert Isaacson: It blurs
and then it comes out.
00:28:52.491 --> 00:28:56.721
But we, we'll put a, we'll put a link in
the, at the end, just read us the title.
00:28:57.381 --> 00:29:01.131
Richard Williams: So the name of
the book is called The Italian
00:29:01.401 --> 00:29:03.561
Tradition of Equestrian Art,
00:29:03.651 --> 00:29:06.081
Rupert Isaacson: the Italian
Tradition of Equestrian Art,
00:29:06.861 --> 00:29:10.551
Richard Williams: and it's
by Giovanni Batista Toni.
00:29:11.541 --> 00:29:16.961
And the subtitle is A Survey of the
treatises on horsemanship from the
00:29:16.961 --> 00:29:20.081
Renaissance and the centuries following.
00:29:20.696 --> 00:29:26.006
And, and I, I think
it's about 10 years ago.
00:29:26.096 --> 00:29:29.276
It was about 2016 that we published this.
00:29:29.876 --> 00:29:32.696
And GB is what I call him.
00:29:32.906 --> 00:29:37.166
That's what a lot of people call
him short for Giovanni Batista.
00:29:37.916 --> 00:29:45.686
So GB actually has his own press now
and he publishes works in Italian.
00:29:45.956 --> 00:29:51.766
Some of the authors that we have
published in, in English, for
00:29:51.766 --> 00:29:57.996
example, GB Thomasine in Italy, they
are publishing works in Italian.
00:29:58.416 --> 00:30:05.616
And another notable example
is Werner Pusher in Austria.
00:30:06.136 --> 00:30:11.806
We published the Austrian Art of
Writing in English and he has since.
00:30:12.226 --> 00:30:19.726
Opened his own press and publishes,
you know, Austrian works in, in German.
00:30:20.476 --> 00:30:24.076
And I'm just kind of proud of that
because they sort of, I think they sort
00:30:24.076 --> 00:30:28.996
of saw what I was doing in English and
I'm really happy that they're publishing
00:30:28.996 --> 00:30:30.946
those works in their local countries.
00:30:31.276 --> 00:30:35.856
But and bringing back a lot of
these works and we have very, very
00:30:35.946 --> 00:30:40.866
friendly relationship with these
authors who are now publishers.
00:30:41.466 --> 00:30:45.726
And I'll tell you another story
about them, but, but what was
00:30:45.726 --> 00:30:47.406
going on in the Renaissance?
00:30:47.466 --> 00:30:53.036
As you know, Italy was just a series
of little, city states, you know,
00:30:53.576 --> 00:30:57.476
there was little fiefdoms, you know,
that's probably an English word,
00:30:57.476 --> 00:31:00.856
but there are little principalities.
00:31:01.066 --> 00:31:07.186
So you would have there, it wasn't a
nation, it was an area that was separated
00:31:07.186 --> 00:31:13.246
off from a lot of the rest of Europe by
its geography being a long peninsula.
00:31:14.206 --> 00:31:16.966
But these land, and they
00:31:16.966 --> 00:31:20.266
Rupert Isaacson: had the legacy of, of
the Roman Empire and the papacy of course.
00:31:20.536 --> 00:31:21.286
Richard Williams: Right, right.
00:31:21.556 --> 00:31:28.656
So they had these land areas and they
would have a certain area that let's say
00:31:28.866 --> 00:31:33.906
a Duke or or a Baron or whatever would.
00:31:35.016 --> 00:31:38.136
Be in charge of protecting
the local people.
00:31:38.586 --> 00:31:40.806
And it was of course the futile system.
00:31:40.806 --> 00:31:45.096
So there were serfs in the
field working the fields, and
00:31:45.096 --> 00:31:47.046
it was a hierarchical system.
00:31:47.506 --> 00:31:51.646
But at the head of that
was usually a family.
00:31:51.856 --> 00:31:54.706
You know, one that comes to
mind is the cheese, right?
00:31:55.186 --> 00:31:55.276
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:31:55.516 --> 00:31:58.696
Richard Williams: So all of
these medic cheese, and it was a
00:31:58.936 --> 00:32:01.786
patriarchal system pretty much.
00:32:02.116 --> 00:32:10.096
So the Medici senior would have offspring
and, and then these offspring would
00:32:10.096 --> 00:32:12.196
sooner or later become teenagers.
00:32:13.396 --> 00:32:15.706
So the little tiny baby that was cute.
00:32:15.796 --> 00:32:21.136
The new male heir to the, to the family
fortune or to the response rose into a
00:32:21.136 --> 00:32:22.966
Rupert Isaacson:
psychopath like Chere Boer.
00:32:22.996 --> 00:32:23.206
Richard Williams: Yeah.
00:32:23.266 --> 00:32:26.786
Because as soon as he turns
goes into puberty at the age
00:32:26.786 --> 00:32:30.186
of 12, 13, 14, 15 suddenly.
00:32:30.561 --> 00:32:37.191
His parents become stupid and
he's rebelling against them.
00:32:37.191 --> 00:32:41.061
He doesn't listen to
them, and they just, he
00:32:41.061 --> 00:32:42.741
Rupert Isaacson: declares
war in his local neighbor.
00:32:43.071 --> 00:32:43.971
Richard Williams: Right, right.
00:32:43.971 --> 00:32:44.091
Yeah.
00:32:44.391 --> 00:32:48.706
So what they learned is like,
oh, we'll send him off to a,
00:32:49.011 --> 00:32:50.386
a kind of boarding school.
00:32:50.601 --> 00:32:56.151
The name of these schools back then
was called the School of Horsemanship.
00:32:56.631 --> 00:33:00.871
So, but horsemanship was not
the only thing taught there.
00:33:01.321 --> 00:33:02.401
And so what was the goal?
00:33:02.401 --> 00:33:08.881
It was like usually a, a four year
process on average between the
00:33:08.881 --> 00:33:13.231
age of 14 and 18 or 16 and 20.
00:33:13.501 --> 00:33:19.051
And sometimes the, they the, the
curriculum lasted longer than four years.
00:33:19.051 --> 00:33:20.461
Sometimes it was six years.
00:33:20.491 --> 00:33:25.141
Sometimes it took longer if somebody
was stubborn, but many things were
00:33:25.141 --> 00:33:27.541
taught in the school of horsemanship.
00:33:28.771 --> 00:33:33.541
And in including, but not
limited to, you know, fencing,
00:33:33.841 --> 00:33:36.841
public speaking, mathematics
00:33:37.231 --> 00:33:37.861
Rupert Isaacson: sciences.
00:33:38.221 --> 00:33:38.611
Yeah.
00:33:38.821 --> 00:33:39.871
Richard Williams: Dancing
00:33:40.381 --> 00:33:41.041
Rupert Isaacson: sportsmanship
00:33:41.066 --> 00:33:42.211
Richard Williams: and, and horsemanship.
00:33:42.211 --> 00:33:45.161
Why was horsemanship so important?
00:33:45.161 --> 00:33:47.201
Because that was transportation.
00:33:47.771 --> 00:33:50.591
There were no, there were no cars.
00:33:50.921 --> 00:33:54.071
There were the, the
transportation was the horse.
00:33:54.371 --> 00:33:57.911
And if you were going to be a
leader, you needed to be moving out
00:33:57.911 --> 00:34:06.871
front to direct either surveys of
the land or patrols or what, what
00:34:06.871 --> 00:34:09.301
you tried to do, do is avoid war.
00:34:09.301 --> 00:34:09.391
Mm-hmm.
00:34:10.006 --> 00:34:13.861
But if you had to go to war, you
had to show yourself as a leader.
00:34:14.551 --> 00:34:22.471
And, and so you knew, you had, you had
to know how to ride a horse and once.
00:34:23.371 --> 00:34:30.241
The, the offspring graduated from
this, this school of horsemanship
00:34:30.481 --> 00:34:35.101
through this wide curriculum
that included these life skills.
00:34:35.671 --> 00:34:41.171
Then they could go back to their
village or their principality
00:34:41.351 --> 00:34:41.501
Rupert Isaacson: that
00:34:41.501 --> 00:34:42.041
Richard Williams: coastal
00:34:42.161 --> 00:34:42.431
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
00:34:42.566 --> 00:34:46.871
Richard Williams: And, and be,
you know, next in line for the
00:34:46.871 --> 00:34:49.181
throne or next in line as a leader.
00:34:49.181 --> 00:34:54.821
So you start out as a snot-nosed
teenager, lipping off your parents.
00:34:55.061 --> 00:34:57.761
And here's what, here's
the great equalizer.
00:34:58.301 --> 00:35:06.771
When a lot of the horses that were used
in these schools, the stallions, the males
00:35:06.771 --> 00:35:08.931
and the female horses were kept separate.
00:35:09.501 --> 00:35:15.621
So in the tradition was that female
horses were used at breeding farms, and
00:35:15.621 --> 00:35:18.651
they were also used often in carriages.
00:35:19.446 --> 00:35:26.346
So for carriage riding,
basically because of the mare's
00:35:26.436 --> 00:35:29.946
structure of having the longer
00:35:29.946 --> 00:35:30.066
Rupert Isaacson: back
00:35:30.396 --> 00:35:30.786
Richard Williams: Yeah.
00:35:30.846 --> 00:35:38.196
Longer back and having the abdomen be able
to be opening and having the pelvis invert
00:35:38.196 --> 00:35:41.886
a little bit to be able to birth Foles.
00:35:42.276 --> 00:35:48.636
And the stallion has a more tucked
pelvis in general from breeding
00:35:48.636 --> 00:35:52.386
and from, you know, fighting
with other stallions naturally.
00:35:52.776 --> 00:36:01.561
So the stallions were the horse of choice
and castration wasn't really widely done.
00:36:01.561 --> 00:36:06.931
And in some countries, like on the Iberian
Peninsula, male horses are often just left
00:36:06.931 --> 00:36:09.961
as stallions as a normal course mm-hmm.
00:36:10.621 --> 00:36:12.471
Of, of protocol, but.
00:36:12.876 --> 00:36:19.386
What would happen is these teenage boys
who had been liping off their parents
00:36:19.386 --> 00:36:22.416
and telling them that they didn't know
what they were talking about, they
00:36:22.416 --> 00:36:29.436
would go to these schools and, and then
the teacher, the ride in teacher would
00:36:29.436 --> 00:36:33.636
basically say, okay, you're everybody off.
00:36:33.666 --> 00:36:38.496
Just go ahead and ride the stallion
and try that with the stallion,
00:36:38.496 --> 00:36:40.956
with the 1200 pound pound stallion.
00:36:41.256 --> 00:36:49.386
And pretty soon the stallion gave
feedback as to what kind of behavior
00:36:49.386 --> 00:36:53.766
was going to be acceptable and
what was going to be thrown off.
00:36:54.156 --> 00:36:54.246
Mm-hmm.
00:36:54.486 --> 00:36:58.896
So if you know, I have this story of
when my, when we got our very, very first
00:36:58.896 --> 00:37:04.626
horse I was 11 and my brother was 13.
00:37:05.826 --> 00:37:11.136
And my sister was eight, and I may
have told this story before, but my
00:37:11.136 --> 00:37:13.476
brother was right at that age of 13.
00:37:14.076 --> 00:37:19.106
So he had been watching shows like
gun smoke and and Bonanza, right
00:37:19.106 --> 00:37:21.116
on tv, black and white versions.
00:37:21.476 --> 00:37:24.056
So my parents didn't know what to do.
00:37:24.056 --> 00:37:29.096
We got this little pony and my brother
got on the Little Pony and it was a
00:37:29.096 --> 00:37:33.806
marere and it was probably 14 hands.
00:37:34.196 --> 00:37:38.696
And he got on and they looked at
the three of us and they said, okay,
00:37:38.786 --> 00:37:43.436
this is actually for Kathy, my little
sister who is eight, but we're not
00:37:43.436 --> 00:37:45.446
going to sacrifice Kathy first.
00:37:45.536 --> 00:37:47.726
Let's put Mark on.
00:37:48.116 --> 00:37:53.036
So they put my brother on and my brother,
who had not ridden horses before,
00:37:53.486 --> 00:37:55.766
and his only example was gun smoke.
00:37:56.741 --> 00:37:59.351
And bonanza of the TV shows.
00:37:59.351 --> 00:38:04.001
He just remembered a guy getting on and
kicking the horse with both legs and then
00:38:04.001 --> 00:38:08.801
taking off, you know, after he fell out of
the second floor, you know, the John Wayne
00:38:08.801 --> 00:38:14.831
movie falling out of the second floor,
balcony of the saloon and then taking off.
00:38:14.831 --> 00:38:18.521
So he got on and he just kicked the
horse while she took off with him
00:38:18.911 --> 00:38:25.691
and, and galloped out of sight behind
the L-shaped barn galloped and, you
00:38:25.691 --> 00:38:27.851
know, the very fast movement of feet.
00:38:28.181 --> 00:38:35.051
And then, he completely disappeared and
she promptly galloped straight towards
00:38:35.051 --> 00:38:40.571
the muck heap, which was a giant pile
of straw and horseshit that was being
00:38:40.571 --> 00:38:43.091
pushed into a wet area on the farm.
00:38:43.331 --> 00:38:48.441
And then did a sudden lurching
stop very much like the Thewell
00:38:48.681 --> 00:38:54.051
cartoons, Uhhuh, and he went ass
over tea kettles and was thrown off.
00:38:54.111 --> 00:38:57.681
She didn't even buck, she just went
from a Gallup to a sudden stop.
00:38:58.011 --> 00:39:01.041
And he landed directly in the manure pile.
00:39:01.971 --> 00:39:08.431
And so we didn't even keep up with this
because it was around the corner and the
00:39:08.731 --> 00:39:13.081
mayor came trotting back with the rains,
drooped down, very proud of herself.
00:39:13.081 --> 00:39:16.306
And we, we were thinking,
where, where's Mark?
00:39:17.206 --> 00:39:21.856
And he came around the corner and I
heard many, many swear words that I
00:39:21.856 --> 00:39:23.716
had never heard up until that point.
00:39:23.716 --> 00:39:28.576
I didn't even know they existed,
but it was a new list of vocabulary.
00:39:28.996 --> 00:39:35.176
And, but this is an example of
how a horse will tell you that
00:39:35.176 --> 00:39:37.426
what you're doing is unacceptable.
00:39:37.966 --> 00:39:42.616
And so the horse being 1200
pounds and us not being 1200
00:39:42.616 --> 00:39:44.536
pounds, the horse guides us.
00:39:44.536 --> 00:39:50.116
It has this civilizing effect
on people because it sorts for
00:39:50.116 --> 00:39:51.556
the right kind of behavior.
00:39:51.766 --> 00:39:58.606
So if a rider is going to learn from
the horse, the rider starts to refine
00:40:00.076 --> 00:40:03.556
their aids and starts to eliminate the.
00:40:03.991 --> 00:40:10.711
Abusive coarse rough aids because a
lot of horses just won't tolerate that.
00:40:10.801 --> 00:40:11.161
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:40:11.611 --> 00:40:16.651
Richard Williams: And then we can take
that to the nth degree when we, when goes
00:40:16.651 --> 00:40:24.451
towards art, where we start culturing
the riders TT or the tactfulness of
00:40:24.451 --> 00:40:31.641
the rider, where we see riders, and
we've seen in the, in the 18th century.
00:40:32.491 --> 00:40:41.221
Like in Eisenberg or Inal or in sinned,
where, where the big boast, the big
00:40:41.221 --> 00:40:47.431
bragging about what makes a great
horse person, a great horse person, is
00:40:47.431 --> 00:40:50.581
that we basically cannot see the aids.
00:40:51.061 --> 00:40:52.951
We, the rider sits there.
00:40:53.161 --> 00:40:53.401
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:40:53.671 --> 00:40:56.791
It looks, it seems like to happen just
by like Jimi Hendrix playing the guitar.
00:40:56.791 --> 00:40:57.721
It just seems like right.
00:40:58.236 --> 00:40:58.446
Richard Williams: Right.
00:40:58.446 --> 00:40:59.466
Rupert Isaacson: Guitar plays itself.
00:40:59.496 --> 00:40:59.826
Yeah.
00:40:59.886 --> 00:41:00.006
Yeah.
00:41:00.006 --> 00:41:02.916
Richard Williams: Make playing the
guitar without moving your fingers.
00:41:03.161 --> 00:41:03.401
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:41:03.666 --> 00:41:03.786
Richard Williams: Yeah.
00:41:04.596 --> 00:41:09.996
And, and so this was, people realized
that this is, that is mastery.
00:41:10.476 --> 00:41:10.536
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
00:41:10.596 --> 00:41:15.696
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
00:41:15.696 --> 00:41:22.256
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,
00:41:22.936 --> 00:41:25.156
either who are professionals in the field.
00:41:25.236 --> 00:41:26.076
Are you a therapist?
00:41:26.496 --> 00:41:27.766
Are you a caregiver?
00:41:28.156 --> 00:41:29.166
Are you a parent?
00:41:29.601 --> 00:41:31.631
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
00:41:33.071 --> 00:41:38.011
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
00:41:38.051 --> 00:41:39.681
I really didn't know what to do.
00:41:39.881 --> 00:41:45.151
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
00:41:45.191 --> 00:41:47.991
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
00:41:48.141 --> 00:41:49.031
Temple Grandin.
00:41:49.231 --> 00:41:50.871
And she told me what to do.
00:41:50.921 --> 00:41:55.161
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
00:41:55.511 --> 00:41:59.961
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped
00:42:00.221 --> 00:42:03.971
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.
00:42:04.311 --> 00:42:08.211
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.
00:42:09.241 --> 00:42:13.681
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed
00:42:13.901 --> 00:42:15.941
approach, it's called Movement Method.
00:42:16.601 --> 00:42:19.958
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.
00:42:19.958 --> 00:42:22.221
It's almost laughably simple.
00:42:23.161 --> 00:42:25.861
The important thing is to begin.
00:42:26.791 --> 00:42:29.941
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
00:42:29.941 --> 00:42:33.231
Grandin and see what results can follow.
00:42:34.261 --> 00:42:37.191
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
00:42:39.461 --> 00:42:41.966
com Sign up as a gold member.
00:42:42.406 --> 00:42:45.296
Take the online movement method course.
00:42:45.786 --> 00:42:47.156
It's in 40 countries.
00:42:47.766 --> 00:42:49.826
Let us know how it goes for you.
00:42:50.026 --> 00:42:50.796
We really want to know.
00:42:50.806 --> 00:42:55.306
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there
00:42:55.656 --> 00:42:58.936
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
00:42:59.926 --> 00:43:03.856
Richard Williams: That is when, because
the horse has now welcomed you because
00:43:03.856 --> 00:43:09.496
you deserve to be welcomed because
you acted, you know, in a way that
00:43:09.556 --> 00:43:15.436
respects the horse's nature and sees
him as a partner and not as a vehicle.
00:43:16.156 --> 00:43:16.216
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
00:43:16.246 --> 00:43:18.406
Richard Williams: So, did
I answer your question?
00:43:18.406 --> 00:43:18.466
You
00:43:18.466 --> 00:43:18.796
Rupert Isaacson: did.
00:43:18.796 --> 00:43:24.676
And, and it, it, I think we could, what
it's coming down to is preparing the
00:43:25.456 --> 00:43:29.466
person that goes through that academy
as to be a diplomat and an ambassador.
00:43:29.856 --> 00:43:34.686
You know, it's interesting, Leonardo
da Vinci said a man in public life must
00:43:34.686 --> 00:43:40.686
learn to ride beautifully because he will
be seen on horseback everywhere he goes.
00:43:40.866 --> 00:43:42.336
If he looks like a dick, you know.
00:43:42.691 --> 00:43:48.781
And he's bouncing about up there like a
sack of potatoes he'll be laughed at and
00:43:48.781 --> 00:43:52.561
clearly he won't have mastery and he could
be unseated easily and fall in the mud.
00:43:52.561 --> 00:43:56.251
If you chuck something at his horse, if
you spook his horse down goes the king.
00:43:56.761 --> 00:44:02.151
And when, but also it will humble
the young prince so that he
00:44:02.151 --> 00:44:03.951
doesn't get too above himself.
00:44:03.951 --> 00:44:06.801
And I've actually had personal
experience of this when I was a boy
00:44:06.801 --> 00:44:12.291
growing up as a young teenager in
Leicestershire in the uk, which is a big
00:44:12.501 --> 00:44:14.541
fox hunting area, lots of big jumping.
00:44:14.811 --> 00:44:18.921
And Prince Charles, who's now King
Charles, used to come and hunt with us.
00:44:19.021 --> 00:44:23.991
And you would see him, you know, face
down in a ditch the same way you'd
00:44:23.991 --> 00:44:28.431
see anyone else face down in a ditch
because that's just the laws of physics.
00:44:28.431 --> 00:44:32.661
And the laws of physics don't
care if you have a, a title that
00:44:32.661 --> 00:44:34.221
other monkeys thought up for you.
00:44:34.611 --> 00:44:37.911
The laws of physics are the laws
of physics, and he wouldn't.
00:44:38.601 --> 00:44:40.641
Stand upon his dignity or his honor.
00:44:41.121 --> 00:44:44.271
If he was chucked off the horse and then
ordered the horse's head to be cut off
00:44:44.271 --> 00:44:48.111
or anything, he'd get up, laugh, brush
himself down, say, well, we're only
00:44:48.111 --> 00:44:50.571
human if he could get back up and go on.
00:44:50.931 --> 00:44:55.341
And so I, I think with the tradition
of horsemanship and people in power,
00:44:55.731 --> 00:45:00.961
there has been this really interesting
interplay through the classical ages
00:45:01.441 --> 00:45:06.661
of, it's both an exercise in humility
and it's an exercise in mastery.
00:45:06.811 --> 00:45:09.391
And of course, there is no
mastery without humility.
00:45:09.601 --> 00:45:14.221
What everyone who comes into contact
with a horse and tries particularly
00:45:14.221 --> 00:45:19.651
to ride in three dimensions, I think
encounters, is that the horse does
00:45:19.651 --> 00:45:21.121
not care what's in your bank account.
00:45:22.371 --> 00:45:28.701
You had better humble yourself to
the system that is necessary because
00:45:28.701 --> 00:45:32.721
this animal thinks fors itself
and has its own reactions, its own
00:45:32.721 --> 00:45:34.101
opinions, its own sense of humor.
00:45:34.251 --> 00:45:35.611
You, by the way, are the butt of the joke.
00:45:36.336 --> 00:45:38.226
'cause who else is there
to be the but of the joke?
00:45:38.586 --> 00:45:42.116
And how you deal with that is
going to be to some degree how
00:45:42.116 --> 00:45:43.256
you deal with your commonwealth.
00:45:43.586 --> 00:45:47.726
If you are forcing and terrorizing
your horse, you're probably
00:45:47.726 --> 00:45:49.106
gonna be a tyrant to your people.
00:45:49.496 --> 00:45:51.266
You know, we can actually
see this, I think in
00:45:53.396 --> 00:45:56.006
generally in how people behave
with animals is often how
00:45:56.006 --> 00:45:57.956
they'll behave with, with humans.
00:45:58.496 --> 00:46:04.946
So you then published of course a book
which was written in the early 16 hundreds
00:46:05.316 --> 00:46:10.176
by a man called Antoine de Plu who had
been one of the northern European, in
00:46:10.176 --> 00:46:15.186
this case, French students at one of these
academies because of course, the sons
00:46:15.186 --> 00:46:21.606
of the nobility of Northern Europe also
sent their scions or so were, were also
00:46:21.606 --> 00:46:27.276
sent down to these academies to learn
all these arts and come back and become
00:46:27.276 --> 00:46:30.036
sort of polished courtier back home.
00:46:31.251 --> 00:46:35.141
And Pelle came back to the King
of France where he was then
00:46:35.141 --> 00:46:38.351
hired to train the king's horses.
00:46:38.351 --> 00:46:42.461
And he said, listen, siah, we need
actually four of these academies,
00:46:42.461 --> 00:46:44.291
which we have down in Italy.
00:46:44.711 --> 00:46:45.731
France is a square.
00:46:45.731 --> 00:46:50.291
Let's have one sort of at each point
of the square on the inside because
00:46:50.321 --> 00:46:53.561
our young nobility are outta control.
00:46:53.561 --> 00:46:57.131
They are, if they're not
dualing with each other.
00:46:57.131 --> 00:47:00.041
And of course, when they kill each
other in duals, this breaks up states.
00:47:00.041 --> 00:47:02.141
It shatters the local economy.
00:47:02.481 --> 00:47:05.691
And then when they get older, if they
survive, they just simply declare war on
00:47:05.691 --> 00:47:08.271
each other, or worse war on the crown.
00:47:08.271 --> 00:47:12.231
We've had a hundred years of,
you know, chaotic civil war.
00:47:12.471 --> 00:47:16.251
Spain is to the south of us, and
it's dominating the world Right now.
00:47:16.461 --> 00:47:22.651
We have a much richer agricultural
base and trade based than Spain does.
00:47:22.831 --> 00:47:23.821
Apart from the Americas.
00:47:23.821 --> 00:47:25.021
We could supersede Spain.
00:47:25.846 --> 00:47:28.876
In Europe as the dominant
power, as long as those pesky
00:47:28.876 --> 00:47:31.276
englanders don't get there first.
00:47:31.456 --> 00:47:35.266
But we'll never do it unless
we get control of our young
00:47:35.266 --> 00:47:38.886
aristocracy because right now
they're just messing everything up.
00:47:40.596 --> 00:47:42.666
What he said is Xenophon.
00:47:42.846 --> 00:47:48.936
These guys from the Greek, these guys
from these renaissance academies down
00:47:48.936 --> 00:47:52.806
in Italy are making a good point.
00:47:52.836 --> 00:47:56.436
If you are going to train a horse and
learn to ride a horse three dimensionally
00:47:56.436 --> 00:48:00.726
like this with these invisible aids
and contain and manage all this power
00:48:01.956 --> 00:48:04.926
gracefully, then you have to do one thing.
00:48:05.316 --> 00:48:10.626
You have to be able to get
control of your emotions.
00:48:11.046 --> 00:48:15.906
Emotional regulation, we talked
about oxytocin, emotional regulation,
00:48:16.086 --> 00:48:17.706
being able to handle your shit.
00:48:18.426 --> 00:48:22.536
If you can do this, you can probably
kind of get by in life, but if you can't.
00:48:23.031 --> 00:48:23.661
Maybe not.
00:48:24.111 --> 00:48:26.361
And he said, you know, this
is what our aristocracy needs.
00:48:26.361 --> 00:48:29.931
They need to learn how to handle
their emotions, their hotheads.
00:48:30.201 --> 00:48:34.401
And the king went for it because of
that book that you now still publish.
00:48:34.731 --> 00:48:37.251
And that's why we of course ended
up with all those French words
00:48:37.301 --> 00:48:38.471
because they nationalized it.
00:48:38.801 --> 00:48:44.081
That's why we have dressage massage
pf Robert Traver, all these words.
00:48:44.351 --> 00:48:50.711
So I think it's been really born out
that to learn to ride a horse in this
00:48:50.711 --> 00:48:57.161
complex way is, requires you to get
control of your own complexities.
00:48:57.851 --> 00:49:04.271
How do you feel that your publishing
of this canon of people doing
00:49:04.271 --> 00:49:08.111
this over the last few hundred
years could kind of help us today?
00:49:08.141 --> 00:49:10.151
'cause we are, I would say, I
think it's fair to say we're
00:49:10.151 --> 00:49:11.861
living in uncertain times again.
00:49:12.501 --> 00:49:18.981
And a lot of the stability that we have
taken for granted in the last 90 years.
00:49:19.581 --> 00:49:23.541
80 years is beginning
to fray and fragment.
00:49:24.501 --> 00:49:29.601
What can your books, what can this kind
of classical horsemanship teach us and
00:49:29.601 --> 00:49:31.671
help us with now in this modern era?
00:49:32.811 --> 00:49:37.911
Richard Williams: So the reason I'm,
I'm going to answer that, but the
00:49:37.911 --> 00:49:48.351
reason, so why was, why was horsemanship
effective at getting those, those
00:49:48.441 --> 00:49:55.191
French youths or the Italian youths,
or the Europeans able, why and how,
00:49:55.191 --> 00:49:57.651
what is the nature of horsemanship?
00:49:57.651 --> 00:50:02.571
This is the question
that, how is it that that
00:50:04.671 --> 00:50:08.931
taught those people for emo
to do emotional regulation?
00:50:08.936 --> 00:50:09.236
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:50:10.776 --> 00:50:18.186
Richard Williams: So I have the an I know
the answer to that because when we are
00:50:18.336 --> 00:50:31.986
emotionally dysregulated in our minds, we
are often worrying or fretting about the
00:50:31.986 --> 00:50:34.686
things that might happen in the future.
00:50:35.046 --> 00:50:35.286
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:50:35.976 --> 00:50:40.956
Richard Williams: We're also regretting
or having guilt about the things
00:50:40.956 --> 00:50:44.286
that did or didn't have in the past.
00:50:44.466 --> 00:50:44.766
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:50:45.216 --> 00:50:50.466
Richard Williams: And what the horse does
for you to succeed and let's just say even
00:50:50.466 --> 00:51:03.066
survive on horseback today, or whether
it's in 1562 or in 1658 or tomorrow, what.
00:51:05.391 --> 00:51:09.531
Good horsemanship, classical
horsemanship, and this is not really
00:51:10.851 --> 00:51:17.481
maybe underlined in these classical texts.
00:51:17.871 --> 00:51:21.861
It's probably assumed for you to succeed.
00:51:22.521 --> 00:51:22.971
You.
00:51:22.971 --> 00:51:32.931
The horse lives in the present, the horse
lives in this moment and the next second.
00:51:33.831 --> 00:51:39.321
But the horse isn't regretting,
isn't living a life of regret
00:51:40.071 --> 00:51:45.891
and the horse not really worrying
about what might happen tomorrow.
00:51:46.881 --> 00:51:50.541
The horse is just dealing with what is
happening now, and if you want to be a
00:51:50.571 --> 00:51:58.676
horse, a good horse man, or a good horse
woman, or a good horse person, mm-hmm.
00:52:00.126 --> 00:52:03.546
Then you need to become
more like the horse.
00:52:03.546 --> 00:52:09.126
You need to ride empathizing,
understanding how the
00:52:09.126 --> 00:52:10.746
horse perceives the world.
00:52:10.836 --> 00:52:11.856
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, it's mindfulness.
00:52:11.856 --> 00:52:12.336
It, yeah.
00:52:12.336 --> 00:52:15.366
You have to be in, you have
to be present with the horse
00:52:15.606 --> 00:52:18.996
Richard Williams: and, and you have
to, you can't, your mind cannot
00:52:18.996 --> 00:52:21.816
be racing forward into the future.
00:52:21.821 --> 00:52:21.921
Mm-hmm.
00:52:22.001 --> 00:52:22.401
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:52:22.407 --> 00:52:25.536
Richard Williams: And it can't be
living a life of, oh my God, when I
00:52:25.536 --> 00:52:30.256
was 13 that appaloosa took off with
me through the barbed wire fence.
00:52:30.256 --> 00:52:33.526
And that's gonna happen, you
know, in the next five minutes.
00:52:33.526 --> 00:52:35.416
Well, you're not riding an appaloosa.
00:52:35.596 --> 00:52:37.336
There's no barbed wire fence.
00:52:37.336 --> 00:52:37.346
Fence.
00:52:37.696 --> 00:52:39.616
You're riding a draft horse now.
00:52:39.646 --> 00:52:41.866
So it's, things are quite different.
00:52:42.076 --> 00:52:44.686
So this, this idea of worry.
00:52:45.571 --> 00:52:50.951
A fretting about the past, worrying
about the future does not serve you
00:52:50.951 --> 00:52:56.891
because while your mind is preoccupied
with those threats and worries and
00:52:57.011 --> 00:53:02.231
the emotions that go along with them,
these thoughts that are, you know,
00:53:02.261 --> 00:53:05.891
your, just because your thought is
happening doesn't mean it's real.
00:53:06.236 --> 00:53:06.896
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
00:53:06.956 --> 00:53:08.576
Richard Williams: It
does not mean it's real.
00:53:08.756 --> 00:53:08.846
I have
00:53:08.846 --> 00:53:10.346
Rupert Isaacson: noticed
this about my thoughts.
00:53:11.846 --> 00:53:13.646
They're often, they're often wrong.
00:53:13.736 --> 00:53:13.976
You know
00:53:14.036 --> 00:53:18.896
Richard Williams: what is actually real
is what is actually occurring right now.
00:53:19.316 --> 00:53:23.846
That is what we're doing, and
that is actually where we belong.
00:53:24.446 --> 00:53:33.146
So this is the, this is why horsemanship
worked more than the lecture on physics
00:53:33.146 --> 00:53:38.776
or more than the lecture on here's how
you give a public address or and really
00:53:38.776 --> 00:53:44.026
to be a good DA dancer, you know, with
a partner, you need to be right in that
00:53:44.026 --> 00:53:48.736
moment and planning maybe four, three
seconds ahead of where you are now.
00:53:48.766 --> 00:53:49.336
There's not,
00:53:49.336 --> 00:53:50.176
Rupert Isaacson: and it is a dance.
00:53:50.176 --> 00:53:51.226
It is a dance when you with a
00:53:51.226 --> 00:53:51.466
Richard Williams: horse.
00:53:51.466 --> 00:53:52.261
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:52.266 --> 00:53:59.686
So this is why and how it was a
sorting process and effective if, mm.
00:54:00.576 --> 00:54:07.326
Now, I don't think, you know, I'm looking
for the place in the, I'm looking for
00:54:07.326 --> 00:54:12.876
the place in these texts where they
really te tell about this idea of like,
00:54:12.876 --> 00:54:15.216
bringing yourself back to the now.
00:54:15.516 --> 00:54:22.846
And there's two words that come that we
have the benefit of that do this for us.
00:54:23.386 --> 00:54:23.476
Mm-hmm.
00:54:23.551 --> 00:54:27.286
And this is what I try to imbue
all of my teaching with what I
00:54:27.286 --> 00:54:33.076
try to do the as basically the
first step and one is breathing.
00:54:33.496 --> 00:54:34.126
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:54:34.246 --> 00:54:38.476
Richard Williams: That, and, and it,
it's not really, I'm looking forward in
00:54:38.476 --> 00:54:41.876
de lag but I don't necessarily see it.
00:54:42.276 --> 00:54:46.236
That may have been like common
sense or just assumed that people
00:54:46.236 --> 00:54:47.586
are going to continue to breathe.
00:54:47.856 --> 00:54:47.946
Mm-hmm.
00:54:47.976 --> 00:54:49.896
But this breathing of bringing yourself.
00:54:51.031 --> 00:54:56.161
Into the now of, of what is
actually going on right now.
00:54:56.161 --> 00:55:00.751
What are not, what you're worried about
or not what he did five minutes ago
00:55:01.711 --> 00:55:03.931
or what he didn't do five minutes ago.
00:55:04.261 --> 00:55:11.251
And the other huge important thing
is that you need to trust your feel.
00:55:12.151 --> 00:55:18.451
You need to develop, feel in these
parts of your body, your inner thighs,
00:55:18.811 --> 00:55:21.941
your inner calves your backside.
00:55:21.941 --> 00:55:27.731
You know, there's not really in these
disparate parts of our body, like
00:55:27.731 --> 00:55:31.391
we in in the way we go through life.
00:55:31.421 --> 00:55:37.301
We do a lot of this feel by our
hands and by our eyes, right?
00:55:37.661 --> 00:55:39.821
And our sense of balance.
00:55:40.091 --> 00:55:47.426
But it, it, it trains us to
create neuro pathways to.
00:55:48.446 --> 00:55:53.216
Other parts of our body, like
basically the whole, the, the parts
00:55:53.216 --> 00:55:56.006
of our body that may be ignored.
00:55:56.066 --> 00:56:02.576
And I think this is the, this is actually
the mechanism by which it calms this
00:56:02.576 --> 00:56:06.116
is necessary to, to be a good rider.
00:56:06.596 --> 00:56:08.366
This is what is kind of.
00:56:09.476 --> 00:56:15.386
Therapeutic for me as a writer,
I, I mean, I have, you know, this
00:56:15.386 --> 00:56:18.881
person that wants a check, did I
remember to fill out that form?
00:56:18.881 --> 00:56:19.241
Mm-hmm.
00:56:19.326 --> 00:56:21.266
Have I returned this library book?
00:56:21.416 --> 00:56:21.506
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:56:21.746 --> 00:56:24.266
Richard Williams: Is my,
has my computer updated?
00:56:24.716 --> 00:56:26.276
Did I call the plumber?
00:56:26.486 --> 00:56:30.656
Did I remember to go get the
dishwasher, the replacement dishwasher?
00:56:30.656 --> 00:56:32.216
All of this stuff.
00:56:32.336 --> 00:56:37.696
And that I can't remember whether
I've done or all this worrying, right.
00:56:37.966 --> 00:56:41.716
When I go through the gate to
our barn, I have a commitment
00:56:41.716 --> 00:56:44.026
to myself and, and Francis.
00:56:44.026 --> 00:56:48.406
And we have a commitment to each other
that we're just going to focus on the
00:56:48.406 --> 00:56:53.656
horses where we can't be talking about
other stuff because it's actually unsafe.
00:56:53.716 --> 00:56:55.336
It's completely unsafe.
00:56:55.341 --> 00:56:55.581
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
00:56:55.841 --> 00:56:56.701
Richard Williams: To be distracted.
00:56:56.701 --> 00:56:56.861
Yeah.
00:56:56.861 --> 00:56:57.261
So if you're
00:56:57.261 --> 00:56:59.461
Rupert Isaacson: operating dangerous
machinery, you, you gotta be.
00:57:00.751 --> 00:57:04.051
Richard Williams: Completely,
completely and utterly focused.
00:57:04.231 --> 00:57:11.671
So this, this skill of focusing on what
is the, just the next right thing to
00:57:11.671 --> 00:57:15.211
do, the next one right thing to do.
00:57:15.691 --> 00:57:15.931
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
00:57:15.961 --> 00:57:23.521
Richard Williams: This is a skill that
is, first of all, it's calming because
00:57:23.521 --> 00:57:25.681
you're only having one thing to do.
00:57:26.011 --> 00:57:35.221
And people who think that riding is
multitasking, I really think are wrong.
00:57:35.341 --> 00:57:42.451
I think that what you need to do is
hold yourself in balance and then only.
00:57:43.156 --> 00:57:49.546
Feel, what is going on right now and what
is the next one thing, one thing that
00:57:49.546 --> 00:57:52.696
I could do to improve the status quo.
00:57:53.086 --> 00:57:57.526
And then look at, okay, I'm going to
do this one thing that I guess, or
00:57:57.526 --> 00:57:59.416
remember this is the right thing to do.
00:57:59.566 --> 00:58:03.796
And now we have a new, two
seconds later we have a new status
00:58:03.796 --> 00:58:05.506
quo and we have a new moment.
00:58:05.986 --> 00:58:10.246
And then that moment we can
ask the same question, do I
00:58:10.246 --> 00:58:11.746
need to make any changes here?
00:58:11.746 --> 00:58:12.826
What do I feel?
00:58:13.036 --> 00:58:17.776
So this idea of feeling and going
from moment to moment and then
00:58:18.376 --> 00:58:25.546
asking ourselves, this is a kind
of physical meditation, and what
00:58:25.546 --> 00:58:33.466
the horse is to me is the horse
is this three dimensional mirror.
00:58:33.556 --> 00:58:35.686
It's just reflecting back.
00:58:37.471 --> 00:58:43.771
And it's reflecting back your inter your
interface, your physical and spiritual
00:58:43.771 --> 00:58:46.531
interface with this living being
00:58:47.131 --> 00:58:47.521
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
00:58:47.821 --> 00:58:49.381
Richard Williams: That
is kind of adjudicating.
00:58:49.381 --> 00:58:51.091
It's kind of judging you.
00:58:51.091 --> 00:58:56.281
It might be ignoring you, it might be
resisting you and it might be responding
00:58:56.281 --> 00:59:02.851
to you and it might be responding
to you in ways that are challenging.
00:59:03.121 --> 00:59:08.011
And there's also responses where
the horse is yielding and saying,
00:59:08.011 --> 00:59:14.161
yes, I will, this, these experiences
are what happens in life, right?
00:59:14.191 --> 00:59:14.281
Mm-hmm.
00:59:14.521 --> 00:59:19.111
When you go to the villagers and say,
well, we really need to make this fence
00:59:19.111 --> 00:59:21.271
around here so the sheep don't get out.
00:59:21.391 --> 00:59:21.661
Right?
00:59:21.661 --> 00:59:24.811
We really need to do that
because the sheep are wandering
00:59:25.561 --> 00:59:26.851
and then you have a villager.
00:59:27.601 --> 00:59:31.381
Who doesn't wanna make the
fence or is going to resist you.
00:59:31.516 --> 00:59:31.936
Mm-hmm.
00:59:32.116 --> 00:59:36.391
And, and so these skills of like,
well, how do you deal with that?
00:59:37.741 --> 00:59:38.671
How do you deal with that?
00:59:38.671 --> 00:59:40.981
You have to keep
regrouping and reinforcing.
00:59:40.981 --> 00:59:42.091
You have to repeat.
00:59:43.051 --> 00:59:47.251
But on the other hand, the other
villager who makes the sheep fence,
00:59:47.281 --> 00:59:51.091
you say, good job, fantastic job.
00:59:51.591 --> 00:59:53.571
I have more responsibility for you.
00:59:53.571 --> 00:59:59.031
I'm going to reward you for
keeping the flock together.
00:59:59.331 --> 01:00:04.761
So these skills that you learn on
horsemanship, in horsemanship, they're
01:00:04.761 --> 01:00:11.481
still, they're still valid today
because they teach us, the horse
01:00:12.321 --> 01:00:15.771
teaches us this feedback system.
01:00:15.831 --> 01:00:21.051
If you're willing to pay attention,
these same things are going on.
01:00:21.456 --> 01:00:22.266
In life.
01:00:22.686 --> 01:00:27.246
This is why therapeutic horseback
riding is not a gimmick.
01:00:27.486 --> 01:00:27.546
Yeah.
01:00:28.356 --> 01:00:33.936
Because the horse is always giving
you this honest feedback and it's
01:00:33.936 --> 01:00:38.916
either, you know, following you,
following your lead because you
01:00:38.976 --> 01:00:41.256
proved yourself as a reliable mm-hmm.
01:00:41.496 --> 01:00:46.176
And believable leader, or the
horse is ignoring you mm-hmm.
01:00:46.831 --> 01:00:53.106
Because you were not compelling
or the horse is opposing you.
01:00:53.106 --> 01:00:53.676
Mm-hmm.
01:00:53.682 --> 01:00:59.886
Basically, or the fourth thing is
you and the horse have harmonized
01:01:00.396 --> 01:01:03.066
and seem to be doing the same thing.
01:01:03.066 --> 01:01:06.606
These are basically the four
conditions of horseback riding.
01:01:06.606 --> 01:01:10.716
But these in a way you could argue,
are the four conditions of life.
01:01:11.736 --> 01:01:12.336
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
01:01:12.636 --> 01:01:13.446
It's interesting.
01:01:13.526 --> 01:01:15.866
Two things came up for me while
you were talking, of course.
01:01:15.896 --> 01:01:21.006
One is that, you know, in the, in
these previous centuries this type of
01:01:21.006 --> 01:01:26.526
fine riding was seen as a way to train
people who are gonna have to be leaders
01:01:26.526 --> 01:01:30.796
to lead well, because it's not just
about finding and maintaining balance.
01:01:30.796 --> 01:01:34.396
Of course, what we know is that
it's about what you do with the
01:01:34.396 --> 01:01:38.176
loss of balance, the process that
you were just describing with.
01:01:38.206 --> 01:01:41.506
You know, one villager opposes
you, one villager goes with you,
01:01:41.506 --> 01:01:45.646
one villager is neutral, but
this can shift moment to moment.
01:01:46.606 --> 01:01:49.126
The horse's reactions to
you shift moment to moment.
01:01:49.396 --> 01:01:51.526
You have this great moment and
then you have a terrible moment.
01:01:51.526 --> 01:01:54.046
Then maybe you retrieve that and
you have a great moment again.
01:01:54.516 --> 01:01:59.256
And if this is in war or out hunting,
this could be life or death for you.
01:01:59.736 --> 01:02:03.906
If it's in the man in the arena, that's
perhaps where you are refining the
01:02:03.906 --> 01:02:08.916
skills so that when you go out into those
other situations when balance is lost.
01:02:09.696 --> 01:02:13.026
You can retrieve quicker.
01:02:14.256 --> 01:02:18.996
And then I thought, okay, and
that's sort of the old patriarchal
01:02:18.996 --> 01:02:23.136
world which was largely run by
particular types of psychopath.
01:02:23.136 --> 01:02:27.966
And, you know, great, great genocides have
been committed on the backs of horses as
01:02:27.966 --> 01:02:37.776
we know by very skilled riders, but also
very human humane riders have opposed
01:02:37.776 --> 01:02:41.886
that process of genocide and inhumanity.
01:02:42.646 --> 01:02:46.816
And it seems that the people who
really dedicated themselves to
01:02:47.116 --> 01:02:51.676
the write the kind of books that
you now publish were generally in
01:02:51.676 --> 01:02:57.916
the early centuries, men of great
humanity and compassion and kindness.
01:02:57.916 --> 01:03:03.101
And they were, the, the underlying
message they're saying is, be kind
01:03:03.406 --> 01:03:04.726
and compassionate to your horse.
01:03:05.131 --> 01:03:07.171
Be kind and compassionate
to your fellow man.
01:03:07.861 --> 01:03:13.261
Then of course, you hit the 19, the
early 19 hundreds and we have suffrage.
01:03:14.081 --> 01:03:22.571
And suddenly we have a massive influx of
women into the upper echelons of riding
01:03:23.141 --> 01:03:28.121
who prove that it's, it's not a male
dominated thing at all, and it seems to
01:03:28.781 --> 01:03:34.571
serve as a bit of a springboard for the
feminist movement in that an awful lot
01:03:34.601 --> 01:03:41.291
of those economically powerful women
who got behind the suffrage movement in
01:03:41.291 --> 01:03:48.611
the early 20th century were horse women
and were horsewomen who tried to ride
01:03:48.611 --> 01:03:50.231
and deal with their horses in this way.
01:03:50.711 --> 01:03:56.051
And now we are at this next juncture where
we are rethinking our, our relationship.
01:03:56.636 --> 01:03:57.776
With horses at all.
01:03:58.496 --> 01:04:02.306
And we are realizing that, back to
that oxytocin thing we were talking
01:04:02.306 --> 01:04:05.246
about earlier, and this emotional
intelligence thing that we've been
01:04:05.246 --> 01:04:11.726
talking about subsequently, that the
same system that was perhaps created
01:04:12.326 --> 01:04:17.756
for us to sit on a horse to harm our
fellow man in the most efficient way
01:04:17.756 --> 01:04:23.456
possible by being in three dimensions
of movement, could, like martial arts,
01:04:23.636 --> 01:04:26.546
could also be used to heal our fellow man.
01:04:27.236 --> 01:04:34.466
And we've seen, I think in recent
years, a growing dysfunction with
01:04:34.706 --> 01:04:38.276
sport riding, particularly sport
dressage, where it seems to be
01:04:38.276 --> 01:04:41.426
harming horses and people again.
01:04:41.876 --> 01:04:44.696
And now I feel that the bubble
is beginning to burst and that
01:04:44.696 --> 01:04:47.906
the, what we've learned through
therapeutic riding, as you just
01:04:47.906 --> 01:04:53.006
said, is now perhaps gonna spill out
into taking us into a new form of.
01:04:55.121 --> 01:04:59.351
What the next form of, if you like,
classical riding is, we've talked about
01:04:59.351 --> 01:05:08.411
the effect of the good effect of this
type of horsemanship, and this is the
01:05:08.411 --> 01:05:10.421
books that you publish on the human.
01:05:10.781 --> 01:05:11.831
What about on the horse?
01:05:12.911 --> 01:05:17.051
What does this classical thing
do for the animal that is giving
01:05:17.051 --> 01:05:20.531
itself to us so generously and so
01:05:20.531 --> 01:05:20.891
Richard Williams: well?
01:05:22.031 --> 01:05:31.931
Right, so the horse's probably the, I,
I read this recently, the horse's, the
01:05:33.431 --> 01:05:41.111
biggest single other living entity that
has contributed to the civilization
01:05:41.111 --> 01:05:48.971
of man and, and to our progress
because, and, and this went on for
01:05:48.971 --> 01:05:52.061
centuries, they allowed us to be mobile.
01:05:52.361 --> 01:05:52.721
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:05:53.111 --> 01:05:55.961
Richard Williams: They
allowed us to save our backs.
01:05:55.961 --> 01:05:58.541
They allowed us to move around.
01:05:58.541 --> 01:06:05.381
They allowed us to lead, they allowed us
to go borrow their legs and go really fast
01:06:05.861 --> 01:06:13.491
and, and get around and and survey lands
and all, all the things that horses do.
01:06:13.941 --> 01:06:16.761
So, because it wasn't dogs
01:06:17.541 --> 01:06:17.931
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
01:06:18.501 --> 01:06:24.891
Richard Williams: And it wasn't
oxen and it wasn't giraffes, and you
01:06:24.891 --> 01:06:27.231
can't have elephants go everywhere.
01:06:27.651 --> 01:06:28.281
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:06:28.521 --> 01:06:32.931
As you may know, if you've been following
my work, we are also horsey folk here.
01:06:33.436 --> 01:06:37.926
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of
01:06:37.976 --> 01:06:41.136
the old classical dressage masters.
01:06:41.566 --> 01:06:44.356
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.
01:06:44.746 --> 01:06:49.746
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.
01:06:50.006 --> 01:06:54.836
If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and
01:06:54.836 --> 01:07:00.636
really have fun and joy for you and your
equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
01:07:00.636 --> 01:07:02.966
com Sign up as a premium member.
01:07:03.286 --> 01:07:07.296
and begin to take the Helios Harmony
course, which will take you from zero
01:07:07.766 --> 01:07:12.896
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing
on the spot in hand on the ground.
01:07:13.486 --> 01:07:17.196
And then from there, you can
develop out to anywhere you want to.
01:07:18.156 --> 01:07:18.896
Heliosharmony.
01:07:19.406 --> 01:07:23.076
com to unlock the secrets
of the old masters.
01:07:23.481 --> 01:07:26.511
Richard Williams: So, so the,
the horse more than any other
01:07:26.571 --> 01:07:29.541
living creature has had that.
01:07:29.541 --> 01:07:37.641
So we have a lot of experience over,
you know, millennia working with horses
01:07:37.641 --> 01:07:42.831
as you know, you know, the riders from
the steps and, and earlier people,
01:07:43.131 --> 01:07:47.991
you know, the North American, native
Amer North Americans were on the
01:07:47.991 --> 01:07:54.711
planes and had already, you know, been
riding horses around hurting buffalo
01:07:54.741 --> 01:07:56.991
and hunting, et cetera, et cetera.
01:07:57.351 --> 01:08:03.186
So there, in, in disconnected cultures
01:08:03.606 --> 01:08:04.026
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
01:08:05.106 --> 01:08:08.391
Richard Williams: Geographically
disconnected, humans were
01:08:08.391 --> 01:08:10.101
coming to the same conclusion.
01:08:10.461 --> 01:08:10.551
Mm-hmm.
01:08:10.791 --> 01:08:17.371
So, and the bonds that people had with
horses were extremely rewarding and
01:08:17.371 --> 01:08:21.061
people were very beholden to the horse.
01:08:21.331 --> 01:08:26.911
So I think for these
reasons that we're, we're
01:08:27.021 --> 01:08:33.711
we know have historically
benefited us, it's not necessary.
01:08:33.861 --> 01:08:37.341
It's not necessary for the same reasons.
01:08:37.346 --> 01:08:37.766
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:08:39.246 --> 01:08:41.226
Richard Williams: That it was
in the past because now we
01:08:41.226 --> 01:08:43.356
have, you know, Teslas, right?
01:08:43.356 --> 01:08:43.961
So we have a,
01:08:43.961 --> 01:08:44.321
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
01:08:44.401 --> 01:08:44.411
We
01:08:44.721 --> 01:08:49.506
Richard Williams: have a Tesla or we have
a Volkswagen Jetta or we have a moped.
01:08:49.806 --> 01:08:54.246
So we're not necessarily using them
for transportation, but the horse
01:08:54.246 --> 01:09:00.966
is not obsolete because it still has
these character building qualities.
01:09:01.356 --> 01:09:10.656
And we know from experience that
delving into waywardness, let's just
01:09:10.656 --> 01:09:15.516
call it waywardness, that has been
in the human condition as long as we
01:09:15.546 --> 01:09:25.326
have had humans waywardness of people
losing the path, losing the way through.
01:09:26.331 --> 01:09:29.871
Debauchery or indulgences?
01:09:30.351 --> 01:09:34.851
This has always been, this is, you
know, we hear about the opium dens
01:09:34.851 --> 01:09:37.491
and we hear about, you know, crime.
01:09:37.851 --> 01:09:45.021
These are people who are, are not
availed of the benefits of horsemanship.
01:09:45.021 --> 01:09:49.131
So horsemanship does have
this ability to heal.
01:09:49.161 --> 01:09:54.501
If you're an executive and you have
a high stress job, then going to
01:09:54.501 --> 01:10:01.731
the barn and spending time with
your horse is super rewarding.
01:10:01.851 --> 01:10:05.061
It can be su and very, very therapeutic.
01:10:05.721 --> 01:10:09.111
And therapeutic in an interactive way.
01:10:09.321 --> 01:10:13.071
That's not the same as going
to see a therapist going to see
01:10:13.071 --> 01:10:14.511
in talking about your problems.
01:10:14.511 --> 01:10:15.981
But actually it is a.
01:10:16.626 --> 01:10:18.426
Physical Asana.
01:10:18.486 --> 01:10:21.066
It's a physical meditation.
01:10:21.306 --> 01:10:23.436
It's a, it's a experience.
01:10:23.586 --> 01:10:27.216
You know, you're moving through when
you're, when you are going to see your
01:10:27.216 --> 01:10:32.706
therapist and you sit in, you lay on
the sofa, you sit in the chair, that's
01:10:32.856 --> 01:10:35.196
talk therapy, which is legitimate.
01:10:35.196 --> 01:10:42.546
It's, but the, the physical, the
physical meditation, and it's
01:10:42.546 --> 01:10:45.786
really, it's, it's all of the things.
01:10:45.786 --> 01:10:49.836
It's your action, it's your
motion, it's your touch.
01:10:50.286 --> 01:10:52.506
It can be also your speech.
01:10:54.216 --> 01:10:55.776
The validity of that.
01:10:55.806 --> 01:10:59.646
That is really what needs to be put
forward, because I think, okay, the
01:10:59.646 --> 01:11:08.376
window might be why ther, why is
therapeutic riding like a thing?
01:11:08.646 --> 01:11:12.516
Because maybe it was discovered and.
01:11:13.146 --> 01:11:17.736
People realized, okay, well all this
talk therapy is not really helping these
01:11:17.736 --> 01:11:21.906
people, but we do this physical asana.
01:11:21.936 --> 01:11:25.986
We do this kind of physical kind
of meditation and experience,
01:11:26.526 --> 01:11:32.166
and then like with your son and,
and others, it awakens something.
01:11:32.226 --> 01:11:35.256
Well, that is just as therapeutic.
01:11:36.066 --> 01:11:36.366
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:11:36.606 --> 01:11:40.536
Richard Williams: For an,
for a, an everyday person.
01:11:41.376 --> 01:11:46.206
But why did you seek this?
01:11:46.596 --> 01:11:49.176
Well, you didn't necessarily even seek it.
01:11:49.236 --> 01:11:51.006
You stumbled upon it, right?
01:11:51.006 --> 01:11:55.986
You had the, you were doubling your son
in front of you and you're like, wait,
01:11:55.986 --> 01:11:59.226
I'm noticing he's actually talking now.
01:11:59.436 --> 01:12:04.416
So you, you, you, I, I don't know
exactly what your experience is, but
01:12:04.966 --> 01:12:08.296
so you were really, really looking.
01:12:08.926 --> 01:12:10.036
For a solution.
01:12:10.036 --> 01:12:13.036
So you were open to
like anything, you know.
01:12:13.036 --> 01:12:15.176
What about a sailing trip?
01:12:15.226 --> 01:12:16.666
What about riding horses?
01:12:16.666 --> 01:12:18.001
It could have been, it could have what?
01:12:18.046 --> 01:12:18.916
A camping trip.
01:12:18.916 --> 01:12:20.746
Rupert Isaacson: Just 'cause I like
riding horses doesn't mean I was
01:12:20.746 --> 01:12:24.376
in any way attached to this thing
happening on the back of a horse.
01:12:24.376 --> 01:12:24.766
Absolutely.
01:12:24.796 --> 01:12:25.546
Richard Williams: Right, right.
01:12:25.726 --> 01:12:30.976
So, but one could, not to put words
in your mouth, but you might have
01:12:30.976 --> 01:12:33.136
been somewhat desperate, right?
01:12:33.436 --> 01:12:33.526
Mm-hmm.
01:12:33.766 --> 01:12:35.881
Like you're Or I more
than somewhat desperate.
01:12:36.466 --> 01:12:37.126
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:12:37.606 --> 01:12:39.106
Richard Williams: You're, you're
at your wits end and I'm like,
01:12:39.106 --> 01:12:40.936
I will actually try anything.
01:12:41.386 --> 01:12:41.536
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:12:41.566 --> 01:12:48.796
Richard Williams: So, so it is a
healing it ha Horses have a healing.
01:12:51.106 --> 01:12:52.456
Quality to them.
01:12:52.486 --> 01:12:57.556
I mean, I have people that come
to my barn and they're not real.
01:12:57.616 --> 01:13:02.416
They've had, you know, touch and go
experiences with horses and they, they
01:13:02.416 --> 01:13:07.006
come and they just say, can I just
come and groom your horses for you?
01:13:07.006 --> 01:13:12.646
And they're like, they're, I watch,
I, I le I give them the safety, you
01:13:12.646 --> 01:13:14.836
know, don't go behind the horse.
01:13:14.926 --> 01:13:16.426
This is how we tie them.
01:13:16.966 --> 01:13:20.836
We close the stall door, you know,
this is how you pick up their feet.
01:13:20.836 --> 01:13:22.696
And then I basically
leave them on their own.
01:13:22.936 --> 01:13:27.976
This is how you brush, you brush,
you know, directionally with the,
01:13:28.426 --> 01:13:30.706
the, the direction of the hair.
01:13:31.336 --> 01:13:35.856
And I look on them and I don't
hover and I just watch the
01:13:35.856 --> 01:13:39.816
effect that this has on people.
01:13:39.846 --> 01:13:40.566
And it's.
01:13:41.136 --> 01:13:43.446
Completely regenerative.
01:13:43.956 --> 01:13:45.366
Not even riding.
01:13:45.486 --> 01:13:48.786
Not even riding, just
being around the horse.
01:13:49.056 --> 01:13:49.536
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
01:13:50.136 --> 01:13:55.536
Richard Williams: So through observation,
I just know Yeah, that's really valuable.
01:13:55.536 --> 01:14:01.326
And they are a species on this planet,
and we have, when we ignored or we
01:14:01.326 --> 01:14:08.136
exploited other species they became
extinct when we didn't take care of them.
01:14:08.346 --> 01:14:11.226
So I, there's a huge value.
01:14:11.226 --> 01:14:14.526
It's not just like, yeah, it's nice
to have some horses running around.
01:14:14.826 --> 01:14:21.876
I mean, humans will always, you know,
want to say the human nature is always
01:14:21.876 --> 01:14:23.411
gonna say, well, what's in it for me?
01:14:24.756 --> 01:14:26.106
What's in it for the human?
01:14:26.196 --> 01:14:28.386
How is this gonna make our life better?
01:14:28.866 --> 01:14:34.596
And so I think that's really
what is incumbent upon moving
01:14:34.596 --> 01:14:35.946
from this point forward.
01:14:36.216 --> 01:14:37.866
What is the future of horses?
01:14:37.866 --> 01:14:43.986
And I think to the work that you're doing
with therapeutic riding, but it really,
01:14:44.916 --> 01:14:52.056
we could just expand that and just say,
you know, are you tired of scrolling on
01:14:52.056 --> 01:15:00.846
Facebook and looking at your screen time
being seven, eight hours a day times 365
01:15:00.846 --> 01:15:04.566
days a year, times the rest of your life?
01:15:05.166 --> 01:15:09.126
Is that really bringing
you meaning in your life?
01:15:09.336 --> 01:15:15.366
Is it really helping you or is it making
you more anxious or is it making you less?
01:15:15.756 --> 01:15:17.166
Physically active.
01:15:18.246 --> 01:15:18.336
Hmm.
01:15:18.446 --> 01:15:21.986
And that in itself is an addiction.
01:15:22.016 --> 01:15:26.646
I mean, we also run, you have
other enterprises that you run.
01:15:26.706 --> 01:15:31.326
One of the things that, that we
run is an addiction practice.
01:15:31.896 --> 01:15:34.996
And both Francis and I
are involved in that.
01:15:34.996 --> 01:15:46.096
And I would really like to start exploring
that, the use of horses with addicts.
01:15:47.836 --> 01:15:48.166
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:15:48.736 --> 01:15:48.956
Richard Williams: You know,
01:15:49.486 --> 01:15:52.696
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that's
a, that's a, a no brainer.
01:15:52.696 --> 01:15:55.756
And I think that is perhaps the next
place you and I should go together.
01:15:55.761 --> 01:15:55.981
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:15:56.926 --> 01:15:57.046
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:15:57.051 --> 01:16:00.166
'cause you know, with our, with
our programs ta, the TA program in
01:16:00.166 --> 01:16:03.076
particular, which is classical horse
training from the ground as its
01:16:03.076 --> 01:16:05.926
own therapy, you know, and back to.
01:16:06.316 --> 01:16:10.476
That, that program arrived
out of necessity for us.
01:16:10.506 --> 01:16:15.126
Also out of desperation because once we
were working in our therapeutic riding
01:16:16.026 --> 01:16:22.926
program, with so many people starting to
come in and, and having to produce horses
01:16:22.926 --> 01:16:28.776
that could go collectively and had enough
wellbeing had, were overflowing with
01:16:28.776 --> 01:16:31.206
wellbeing, physical and mental themselves.
01:16:31.656 --> 01:16:35.346
That's of course what the classical
approach gives you because it gives
01:16:35.346 --> 01:16:38.376
you a horse that's well muscled
over the back, particularly where
01:16:38.376 --> 01:16:41.466
you're gonna sit that is supple.
01:16:41.676 --> 01:16:44.886
Basically a horse that's effectively
going through a constant yoga
01:16:44.886 --> 01:16:46.926
process for the body and the mind.
01:16:47.136 --> 01:16:49.446
That is really what
classical horsemanship is.
01:16:49.956 --> 01:16:52.236
We ran out of time to.
01:16:53.541 --> 01:16:55.611
'cause it's time consuming
to do this for horses.
01:16:55.971 --> 01:16:57.591
And we began to panic a bit.
01:16:57.621 --> 01:16:58.551
Okay, what's gonna happen?
01:16:58.551 --> 01:17:02.391
We can't let our horses go downhill
if they haven't got wellbeing.
01:17:02.391 --> 01:17:03.621
How can they give wellbeing?
01:17:04.311 --> 01:17:05.331
And then we're like, duh.
01:17:06.171 --> 01:17:07.971
Our clients should be the horse trainers.
01:17:08.691 --> 01:17:10.881
They are perfectly capable of doing this.
01:17:11.121 --> 01:17:15.591
And then it became this four way
win, win, win win thing because the
01:17:15.591 --> 01:17:16.761
horse was getting what it needed.
01:17:16.761 --> 01:17:19.641
We were getting what we needed,
which was lack of stress.
01:17:20.391 --> 01:17:24.591
The clients, the adult clients that
were coming in were getting empowerment
01:17:24.621 --> 01:17:29.301
through learning how to rehab and
maintain these donated horses.
01:17:29.691 --> 01:17:34.701
And of course the child that was going
to then benefit from that same horse down
01:17:34.701 --> 01:17:36.261
the road was also getting that benefit.
01:17:36.651 --> 01:17:40.521
And, but it was the classical
system that allowed it to happen.
01:17:40.761 --> 01:17:44.541
And without your books, we wouldn't
have been able to do it because
01:17:44.721 --> 01:17:46.561
yes, we went and we studied with a.
01:17:47.106 --> 01:17:51.426
Real classical masters, like the great new
Luis Lenza in Portugal, who's a product
01:17:51.426 --> 01:17:53.556
of the great Nuno Olivea who you publish.
01:17:54.066 --> 01:17:56.286
But you can't be 24 7 with these people.
01:17:56.796 --> 01:18:01.716
And you have to, as Nuno Olivea
has himself said, don't let
01:18:01.716 --> 01:18:04.566
the classical writing books
on your bookshelf gather dust.
01:18:05.106 --> 01:18:05.316
You know?
01:18:05.346 --> 01:18:05.436
Mm-hmm.
01:18:05.526 --> 01:18:10.656
Constantly go to them and learn and
then try to apply it in practice.
01:18:11.646 --> 01:18:16.626
Without you producing this
cannon, it wouldn't happen.
01:18:16.926 --> 01:18:20.316
So what I wanna ask is, we come towards
the close, 'cause we're at the two and
01:18:20.316 --> 01:18:24.486
a half hour mark, and we can pick this
conversation up again in a later podcast.
01:18:24.486 --> 01:18:30.246
And I think we should is if you were
gonna get going, you're a newbie to
01:18:30.246 --> 01:18:36.996
this and you want to explore like the
four or five books through the centuries
01:18:36.996 --> 01:18:38.436
that are gonna give you the best.
01:18:39.471 --> 01:18:42.681
Trajectory, the best overview
for the human point of view
01:18:42.741 --> 01:18:44.121
and the horse point of view.
01:18:44.211 --> 01:18:48.591
What are those four or five books that
you could say out of this entire cannon,
01:18:49.221 --> 01:18:50.661
these are the guys you should start with.
01:18:52.911 --> 01:18:54.891
Richard Williams: Well, I
would ask you the same thing.
01:18:55.071 --> 01:18:55.731
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
01:18:56.841 --> 01:18:58.281
Does that mean I get to have a go?
01:18:58.641 --> 01:19:00.291
Richard Williams: Yeah,
you get to have a go.
01:19:00.351 --> 01:19:02.421
I mean, all right.
01:19:02.631 --> 01:19:09.291
I'm interested in, you know, I always
think it's more fun to answer a
01:19:09.291 --> 01:19:11.121
question with a question, you know?
01:19:11.126 --> 01:19:11.286
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
01:19:12.396 --> 01:19:12.846
Richard Williams: It's a
01:19:12.846 --> 01:19:13.371
Rupert Isaacson: way, well, okay.
01:19:13.371 --> 01:19:13.581
All right.
01:19:13.581 --> 01:19:14.601
I'll, I'll, I'll have a crack.
01:19:14.661 --> 01:19:17.451
I'll have my crack at it and
see, see where we intersect.
01:19:17.691 --> 01:19:19.041
We'll make it like a Venn diagram.
01:19:19.431 --> 01:19:26.061
I reckon you have to start with
Xenophon because it's the, it's the
01:19:26.061 --> 01:19:30.681
genesis and then what one realizes with
Xenophon is, oh, he's actually writing
01:19:30.921 --> 01:19:34.281
almost two and a half thousand years
after this thing has been invented.
01:19:35.106 --> 01:19:37.986
Out there somewhere on the Western
Russian Ukrainian step and has
01:19:37.986 --> 01:19:39.546
gone down through Mesopotamia.
01:19:39.636 --> 01:19:45.696
He's just happens to be the first European
who writes about it, but it is way older.
01:19:45.696 --> 01:19:49.086
And he tells us this, he tells us, I
got this from the Persians, and the
01:19:49.086 --> 01:19:50.676
Persians got this from other people.
01:19:50.916 --> 01:19:52.236
And that puts it in perspective.
01:19:52.236 --> 01:19:58.296
And I think that's really useful in our
post-colonial society as well to say it's
01:19:58.296 --> 01:20:03.546
not a white person thing became adopted by
white people, but it didn't start there.
01:20:03.756 --> 01:20:07.536
That's an, that's an interesting
common humanity pulling together thing.
01:20:07.626 --> 01:20:07.926
Okay.
01:20:08.226 --> 01:20:11.976
So I think you've gotta start with
Xenophon and his basic principles.
01:20:12.001 --> 01:20:18.726
Then I think for me the
next one is a big jump.
01:20:19.896 --> 01:20:25.466
And it's, thomas's book, which you talked
about, about the early Italian masters who
01:20:25.826 --> 01:20:28.316
were coming out of the Iberian tradition.
01:20:28.556 --> 01:20:31.646
And there was a historical
reason why the Spanish Portuguese
01:20:31.646 --> 01:20:33.626
thing jumped across into Italy.
01:20:33.656 --> 01:20:34.976
I won't bore the readers with it.
01:20:34.976 --> 01:20:35.276
Now.
01:20:35.456 --> 01:20:40.316
You can we'll talk about it on another
podcast and how these academies began
01:20:40.316 --> 01:20:42.656
that reflected the old Greek academies.
01:20:42.656 --> 01:20:46.376
And this to some degree changed
the political landscape of Europe.
01:20:46.796 --> 01:20:55.316
And then I think for me, the next one
is lager writing in Francois Hoon lager
01:20:55.646 --> 01:20:59.336
writing in the early 18th century in.
01:21:00.056 --> 01:21:05.426
France because he is the one that
I find is the clearest to follow.
01:21:05.966 --> 01:21:10.376
You can, if you have a basic understanding
of the classical principles, you can,
01:21:10.556 --> 01:21:14.546
you can use him like a textbook in
your arena today and it's gonna work.
01:21:14.546 --> 01:21:19.196
He's, he's thought it all through
and he presents it in non esoteric
01:21:19.196 --> 01:21:25.586
language and really does give you a,
an overview to work from, which also
01:21:26.276 --> 01:21:28.256
shows you how it benefits your horse.
01:21:29.276 --> 01:21:36.926
After that, I think it's important
to do a dual reading of both the
01:21:36.926 --> 01:21:46.016
German dude Steinbeck and whatever
you can read around the French dude
01:21:46.016 --> 01:21:50.756
Boer, because they had to cope with
different kinds of horses coming in.
01:21:51.161 --> 01:21:56.231
A change in horsemanship and that created
the schism that we have today between
01:21:56.501 --> 01:21:59.351
these two types of dressage, which have
been forever at war with each other.
01:21:59.561 --> 01:22:03.191
It's good to understand why these
people did what they did, but I think
01:22:03.191 --> 01:22:04.811
Boucher himself is hard to read.
01:22:04.991 --> 01:22:12.611
So I would favor that book Resonate
on Boer, where he explains Boer and
01:22:12.611 --> 01:22:17.171
then Steinberg himself in gymnasium
de the, the, the, the gymnasium,
01:22:17.171 --> 01:22:21.471
the training of the horse where he's
pointing us towards how you gotta
01:22:21.471 --> 01:22:23.121
kind of go with warm bloods a bit.
01:22:23.571 --> 01:22:28.671
And then I feel that after that one
has to look at Nuno Oliver Oliveira.
01:22:28.941 --> 01:22:32.031
But the problem with Nuno Oliveira,
because he brings all these traditions
01:22:32.031 --> 01:22:37.941
together, is that his own stuff
is really tricky to operate from.
01:22:38.511 --> 01:22:39.651
It's esoteric.
01:22:39.651 --> 01:22:43.941
It's, it's not brilliantly clear,
even though he was clearly a genius.
01:22:43.941 --> 01:22:49.311
So I, from my mind, have really
benefited from reading the books that
01:22:49.311 --> 01:22:54.701
you published from his students where
they published their letters to and from
01:22:55.331 --> 01:23:00.341
Nuno, where he was advising them step
by step on the training of their horses.
01:23:00.521 --> 01:23:02.711
People like, you know, Michelle
or Kay and those people.
01:23:02.771 --> 01:23:06.671
And you've got three or four books
in these short volumes, which are
01:23:06.671 --> 01:23:08.891
these correspondences with Nuno.
01:23:08.891 --> 01:23:11.081
And I've learned a ton from those, a ton.
01:23:11.261 --> 01:23:13.241
Like I'd say I use the exercises.
01:23:13.241 --> 01:23:18.101
I, I, I don't think a day goes by where
I don't use those exercises and it not a
01:23:18.101 --> 01:23:20.591
day goes by where I don't use lag as well.
01:23:20.711 --> 01:23:21.641
So for me.
01:23:22.676 --> 01:23:25.016
That would be my sort of go-to canon.
01:23:25.256 --> 01:23:27.566
And I've been a bit vague on
those last books 'cause it's
01:23:27.566 --> 01:23:28.856
about four or five of them.
01:23:28.976 --> 01:23:30.206
You would have the titles.
01:23:30.486 --> 01:23:34.446
But I know one was from Michelle Enrique
and, but there were a couple of others
01:23:34.446 --> 01:23:37.066
from his English speaking students.
01:23:37.306 --> 01:23:43.186
But I have found Nuno answers to their
questions about how to train their
01:23:43.186 --> 01:23:46.936
horses up through the levels to be
really, really, really useful to me.
01:23:46.936 --> 01:23:47.026
Mm-hmm.
01:23:48.086 --> 01:23:50.476
What do you think, what are your, what's,
what's, what are your four or five?
01:23:51.016 --> 01:23:55.036
Richard Williams: So those titles that
you, that you were mentioning were
01:23:55.036 --> 01:23:59.716
30 years with the Nuno Oliveira, with
Master Nuno Oliveira by Mic, Michelle
01:23:59.746 --> 01:24:07.336
Akay, the Wisdom of Master Nuna Oliveira
by Antoine Deko, the Legacy of Master
01:24:07.471 --> 01:24:09.976
Nuna Oliveira by Stephanie Millham.
01:24:10.486 --> 01:24:16.201
And the fourth one is The Truth
in the Teaching of Master Nuna
01:24:16.206 --> 01:24:18.076
Oliveira by Eleanor Russell.
01:24:18.406 --> 01:24:18.766
And
01:24:18.976 --> 01:24:20.356
Rupert Isaacson: oh, and
I want to add one more.
01:24:20.731 --> 01:24:21.091
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:24:21.721 --> 01:24:24.511
Rupert Isaacson: I want
to add d Dio Braganza.
01:24:24.931 --> 01:24:25.201
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:24:25.741 --> 01:24:26.011
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
01:24:27.241 --> 01:24:30.121
And he's t he's writing
20th and 21st century.
01:24:30.361 --> 01:24:32.491
He's coming out of that whole tradition.
01:24:32.641 --> 01:24:34.021
He's pulling it all together.
01:24:34.171 --> 01:24:35.401
Gimme the name of his book.
01:24:36.191 --> 01:24:38.501
Richard Williams: Dressage
in the French Tradition.
01:24:38.831 --> 01:24:39.311
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:24:39.611 --> 01:24:43.481
That book I feel, I I'm
reading it currently actually
01:24:44.801 --> 01:24:46.421
really synthesizes the lot.
01:24:46.991 --> 01:24:47.231
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:24:47.231 --> 01:24:48.191
Rupert Isaacson: In a way that is clear.
01:24:48.851 --> 01:24:50.021
Richard Williams: Well, what's great.
01:24:50.321 --> 01:24:58.601
Well, so, so well we have a lot of the
same books and I don't disagree with any
01:24:58.691 --> 01:25:01.211
of the books that you, that you said.
01:25:01.601 --> 01:25:02.831
Currently we don't.
01:25:03.491 --> 01:25:09.011
Have, we don't have our version of
Xen, but it's a little bit ironic
01:25:09.011 --> 01:25:10.901
since that's the name of our press.
01:25:10.901 --> 01:25:13.721
So that's probably on my list to do.
01:25:14.171 --> 01:25:19.841
My, my wife is Greek, so, and she speaks
Greek, so that's kind of a no-brainer
01:25:19.841 --> 01:25:25.571
that we should probably do our version
of annotated sapin from the Greek.
01:25:25.571 --> 01:25:26.321
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:25:26.327 --> 01:25:30.311
Richard Williams: So we'll probably
do that, you know, in our spare time.
01:25:30.761 --> 01:25:32.651
So I don't disagree with any of these.
01:25:32.651 --> 01:25:35.441
And this is kind of a historical list.
01:25:35.891 --> 01:25:37.811
Your list is more than five,
01:25:40.301 --> 01:25:43.661
but you're allowed to have
a list of more than five.
01:25:44.141 --> 01:25:51.731
I would say, if I have to limit it
to five I think there's value in
01:25:52.601 --> 01:25:55.091
bringing people through the centuries.
01:25:55.331 --> 01:25:55.781
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
01:25:56.216 --> 01:25:58.676
Richard Williams: And, and not
just saying, okay, you gotta
01:25:58.676 --> 01:26:01.646
only read 18th century stuff.
01:26:02.126 --> 01:26:03.416
I don't think that's good.
01:26:03.476 --> 01:26:10.136
So the, what you're doing is you're
pushing people from, you know, 2000 plus
01:26:10.136 --> 01:26:14.696
years ago, all the way up to, you know,
something written in the 20th century.
01:26:15.206 --> 01:26:20.426
I would say for me, the, the book
that I kind of force everyone to
01:26:20.456 --> 01:26:23.966
buy is I and is to get is de laier.
01:26:23.966 --> 01:26:24.296
Yeah.
01:26:24.866 --> 01:26:25.166
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:26:25.711 --> 01:26:26.516
Richard Williams: I, I just, I
01:26:26.516 --> 01:26:27.271
Rupert Isaacson: called the vocabulary.
01:26:27.911 --> 01:26:28.136
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:26:28.496 --> 01:26:34.346
I just kind of, you need to have this,
'cause I'm gonna say on, you know,
01:26:34.346 --> 01:26:38.126
chapter 11, go read it, memorize it.
01:26:38.246 --> 01:26:40.946
It's gonna be your next
lesson in chapter 12.
01:26:41.411 --> 01:26:41.831
Mm-hmm.
01:26:42.146 --> 01:26:44.966
And chapter 20, you know, and.
01:26:45.551 --> 01:26:48.701
And I often say to people, you do
not have to read the whole book.
01:26:48.701 --> 01:26:51.671
Just read those chapters first
and then go back and read.
01:26:51.671 --> 01:26:56.561
So I'm very directed in that because I
want them to know what a shoulder end is.
01:26:56.566 --> 01:26:56.866
Mm-hmm.
01:26:56.891 --> 01:27:03.701
I want to know what a croup to the wall
or VE is, and I need them to know about
01:27:03.701 --> 01:27:05.621
how to ride the horse in open country.
01:27:06.041 --> 01:27:06.161
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:27:06.401 --> 01:27:09.041
Richard Williams: So, which is
what that chapter 20 is about.
01:27:09.041 --> 01:27:13.481
Maybe we should do a, a little
short, you know, another long-winded
01:27:13.481 --> 01:27:15.311
podcast on just chapter 20.
01:27:15.311 --> 01:27:15.401
Okay.
01:27:16.166 --> 01:27:23.666
I would say I also agree the value of
Dom Diago de Braganza, that mine are
01:27:23.666 --> 01:27:26.126
not in a particular order because.
01:27:27.146 --> 01:27:29.696
He, he, he brings it all together.
01:27:29.906 --> 01:27:34.466
He also says, well, what are
the limitations of like, how
01:27:34.466 --> 01:27:36.596
collected can you get a horse?
01:27:36.601 --> 01:27:36.691
Mm-hmm.
01:27:36.771 --> 01:27:37.011
Mm-hmm.
01:27:37.131 --> 01:27:41.606
Or how stretched can you get a horse
Is what, what happens when you take
01:27:41.606 --> 01:27:43.886
stretching to the ultimate degree?
01:27:43.891 --> 01:27:43.901
Mm-hmm.
01:27:44.276 --> 01:27:45.896
And is that a good thing?
01:27:46.196 --> 01:27:50.366
And what happens when you collect
a horse to the ultimate degree?
01:27:50.396 --> 01:27:51.626
Is that a good thing?
01:27:51.626 --> 01:27:57.626
And, and have we gone too far or what are
the limitations when we have impulsion
01:27:57.626 --> 01:28:05.786
taken to the ultimate degree and this,
and then he historically, he also, in
01:28:05.786 --> 01:28:11.336
not a very large book, he gives you
this survey of like, this is how we
01:28:11.336 --> 01:28:13.856
got from long stirs to short stirs.
01:28:14.126 --> 01:28:15.386
And this is why.
01:28:15.896 --> 01:28:21.986
And in my riding, when I am training
horses and teach, well, especially
01:28:21.986 --> 01:28:25.406
when I'm training horses, I tend to.
01:28:26.216 --> 01:28:31.856
With certain horses experiment
by pushing the envelope slightly.
01:28:31.856 --> 01:28:36.176
Like what happens if we really get
a whole bunch of impulsion or what
01:28:36.176 --> 01:28:41.066
happens if, let's push the edge and
see what the horse will show us.
01:28:41.156 --> 01:28:46.886
And then often I say, okay, well now
I'm a little bit out of balance or
01:28:46.886 --> 01:28:52.796
I'm out of rhythm and now I know the
edge that I can, that I can go to.
01:28:52.976 --> 01:28:53.396
Right.
01:28:53.426 --> 01:28:54.206
That I can,
01:28:55.046 --> 01:28:55.316
Rupert Isaacson: I know.
01:28:55.321 --> 01:28:55.451
Yeah.
01:28:55.571 --> 01:28:56.336
I know the borders.
01:28:56.336 --> 01:28:56.966
I know.
01:28:57.656 --> 01:29:00.746
Richard Williams: And I've actually
gone a slightly too far and now
01:29:00.746 --> 01:29:02.576
I'm going to come back from that.
01:29:02.846 --> 01:29:08.606
So that, that aspect of that book as
well as the historical benefit of that.
01:29:10.436 --> 01:29:16.616
I think that the book that was thumped
for me when I was growing up was PO's
01:29:17.186 --> 01:29:19.226
complete training of horse Rider.
01:29:19.736 --> 01:29:19.916
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:29:20.216 --> 01:29:23.816
Richard Williams: And that
is, it's kind of a textbook.
01:29:23.876 --> 01:29:27.116
He was the director of the Spanish
Writing School for 26 years.
01:29:27.386 --> 01:29:29.936
It's a 20th century thing.
01:29:29.996 --> 01:29:31.916
It's slightly Germanic.
01:29:32.676 --> 01:29:36.126
But it has a lot of
good definitions in it.
01:29:36.126 --> 01:29:37.956
Like he defines what a trod is.
01:29:37.956 --> 01:29:43.956
He defines, you know, what a
shoulder in it's, it's, it's more
01:29:44.056 --> 01:29:46.486
a manual on like how to Yeah.
01:29:46.816 --> 01:29:50.496
So, and not with a ton of feeling.
01:29:50.706 --> 01:29:51.006
Okay.
01:29:51.006 --> 01:29:53.916
So, so I think that's a really good book.
01:29:54.096 --> 01:29:59.766
For people who are really visual
learners, believe it or not, I
01:30:00.396 --> 01:30:03.006
I actually recommend Sally Swift
01:30:03.756 --> 01:30:04.206
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
01:30:04.416 --> 01:30:07.296
Richard Williams:
Centered writing because.
01:30:08.151 --> 01:30:13.341
It appeals to people who are kind of
touchy feely and want to create visual
01:30:13.341 --> 01:30:17.451
images so people learn in different ways.
01:30:17.451 --> 01:30:22.611
It might not be the book
for me, per se mm-hmm.
01:30:22.851 --> 01:30:27.021
But it does, it creates
pictures for people.
01:30:27.441 --> 01:30:32.061
And for that reason alone, she's
doing this graphic imagery.
01:30:32.391 --> 01:30:36.471
And that's often the key, that's
the key that opens the door to
01:30:36.471 --> 01:30:38.481
understanding for some people.
01:30:38.481 --> 01:30:39.051
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:30:39.156 --> 01:30:42.816
Richard Williams: And then, and
then I think I actually like,
01:30:44.226 --> 01:30:46.416
like for to understand Boche.
01:30:48.546 --> 01:30:52.236
And so the complete training
of horse and rider would be the
01:30:52.236 --> 01:30:53.976
understanding of the German system.
01:30:54.666 --> 01:31:01.206
But for example, the carpentry
does a good job of, in an
01:31:01.206 --> 01:31:04.806
unbiased way of analyzing Boer.
01:31:05.196 --> 01:31:10.206
So if you want to know about Boer,
his book called Boer in his school.
01:31:10.596 --> 01:31:10.686
Mm-hmm.
01:31:10.926 --> 01:31:15.306
He writes a, a big essay about
like who the heck was Boer and,
01:31:15.666 --> 01:31:18.366
and who were his detractors.
01:31:18.396 --> 01:31:18.486
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:31:18.726 --> 01:31:22.566
Richard Williams: And even talks about,
he talks about Louis Seger, who is like,
01:31:23.096 --> 01:31:30.086
you know, vehemently against Boer, but
also he talks about, I think there's
01:31:30.086 --> 01:31:35.616
an appendix in there about Louis Rule
who was one of Boucher's students.
01:31:36.036 --> 01:31:42.436
And, and so I, that's a very, very, I
don't disagree with any of your lists.
01:31:42.436 --> 01:31:45.166
We probably have like 10 books here.
01:31:45.586 --> 01:31:47.116
So I think I.
01:31:48.841 --> 01:31:49.111
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
01:31:50.191 --> 01:31:52.261
Richard Williams: Than
anything around these.
01:31:52.261 --> 01:31:59.411
So for like, for Dier to, to read Al or
to read Eisenberg, it's very interesting
01:31:59.411 --> 01:32:04.451
to see the similarities at ex, you know,
within a six year time period mm-hmm.
01:32:04.721 --> 01:32:06.221
About what is written around.
01:32:06.701 --> 01:32:12.551
So, of course, Stein Brecht is important,
but for somebody who's a visual learner,
01:32:12.581 --> 01:32:16.361
they're not going to fi, Stein Brecht
didn't make any diagrams in there.
01:32:16.366 --> 01:32:16.576
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:32:16.656 --> 01:32:16.666
Mm-hmm.
01:32:16.721 --> 01:32:20.651
Richard Williams: So it is, so there
are books that kind of explain Stein
01:32:20.651 --> 01:32:24.371
Brecht, for example, Garret Mann's,
you know, bend and Positioning.
01:32:24.731 --> 01:32:27.431
That book kind of explains a section.
01:32:27.791 --> 01:32:33.711
So, there are a lot of these
treatises that explain other books
01:32:34.041 --> 01:32:36.891
and that they can be of a big help.
01:32:38.391 --> 01:32:43.521
It doesn't really make a lot
of sense to well, for example.
01:32:45.666 --> 01:32:51.306
Boer, you can actually skip reading
Boer because he wasn't a great writer.
01:32:51.426 --> 01:32:51.516
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
01:32:51.756 --> 01:32:53.616
Richard Williams: And
he's very, very confusing.
01:32:53.616 --> 01:32:59.106
So reading the treatises that explain Boer
is probably more valuable than trying to
01:32:59.106 --> 01:33:01.866
read Boer and getting lost in the weeds.
01:33:02.586 --> 01:33:07.656
Steinbeck you can learn, but you need to
read, you know, you can read that, you
01:33:07.656 --> 01:33:10.236
know, one or two or three pages a day.
01:33:11.346 --> 01:33:11.406
Yeah.
01:33:11.496 --> 01:33:16.296
So you, you've got about a hundred
days, you know, of that, of that rate.
01:33:16.296 --> 01:33:19.626
Maybe five pages a day,
so maybe it's less.
01:33:19.986 --> 01:33:27.496
So I think those books, and there's always
new books we are doing we talked about
01:33:27.916 --> 01:33:33.886
earlier, you know, a while back we talked
about how people lived, ate, breathed
01:33:33.976 --> 01:33:35.896
horses there around horses all day.
01:33:35.896 --> 01:33:42.866
We have a we have a book coming out this
month called, the Enlightened, enlightened
01:33:42.866 --> 01:33:49.106
horsemanship, 18th century the Enlightened
Horsemanship of 18th Century Britain.
01:33:49.466 --> 01:33:49.586
Mm-hmm.
01:33:49.776 --> 01:33:53.186
So it talked, and they're talking
about the long 18th century, so they're
01:33:53.186 --> 01:33:58.406
already talking about like late 16th,
hundreds into the early 18 hundreds.
01:33:58.406 --> 01:34:01.736
So they're kind of doing a 150 year span.
01:34:02.096 --> 01:34:05.426
But Allison Moeller does a
really good job of showing us
01:34:05.426 --> 01:34:08.426
how horses were for carriages.
01:34:08.426 --> 01:34:13.346
They were for racing, they were for
farming, and then they were also for the
01:34:13.376 --> 01:34:23.846
menage and how horses were, had completely
saturated into life on the British Isles.
01:34:23.846 --> 01:34:27.186
There, there's no living
without them and mm-hmm.
01:34:27.656 --> 01:34:34.316
And so that's a, these hi historical
context, books like Thomasines.
01:34:34.316 --> 01:34:42.266
And this I think is really important
to, to know what our history was because
01:34:42.266 --> 01:34:49.526
there's, for example, she does a whole
chapter on stable design and, and barns.
01:34:49.556 --> 01:34:50.546
And she Right.
01:34:50.546 --> 01:34:50.606
The
01:34:50.606 --> 01:34:52.796
Rupert Isaacson: loose box
comes out of the 18th century.
01:34:52.796 --> 01:34:53.066
Richard Williams: Absolutely.
01:34:53.096 --> 01:34:53.426
Right.
01:34:53.486 --> 01:34:59.476
But she has these like fascinat,
the, our our turnout, you know,
01:34:59.476 --> 01:35:01.126
where you have a turnout shelter.
01:35:01.516 --> 01:35:03.616
All of our turnout shelters right now
01:35:03.946 --> 01:35:04.036
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
01:35:04.276 --> 01:35:06.316
Richard Williams: Are
rectangular or square.
01:35:06.736 --> 01:35:07.006
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
01:35:07.036 --> 01:35:09.376
Richard Williams: They have
turnout shelters that are round,
01:35:09.436 --> 01:35:13.156
they're like a cylinder and
they're dotted all over England.
01:35:13.186 --> 01:35:19.036
Well, she found these things and went
basically on an archeological, you
01:35:19.036 --> 01:35:23.146
know, expedition across Britain and
she's done incredible research on it.
01:35:23.146 --> 01:35:27.106
It's like, well, why don't
we make round turnout?
01:35:28.246 --> 01:35:29.471
Um mm-hmm.
01:35:29.556 --> 01:35:30.856
Shelters for horses.
01:35:30.856 --> 01:35:32.536
It would be better for the weather.
01:35:32.536 --> 01:35:34.786
They wouldn't get cast as easily.
01:35:34.786 --> 01:35:34.936
No one
01:35:34.936 --> 01:35:35.956
Rupert Isaacson: can corner anyone.
01:35:35.956 --> 01:35:36.286
Yeah.
01:35:36.346 --> 01:35:36.556
Yeah.
01:35:36.556 --> 01:35:36.676
It's
01:35:36.676 --> 01:35:36.826
Richard Williams: true.
01:35:37.546 --> 01:35:38.176
Exactly.
01:35:38.746 --> 01:35:41.596
So, you know, there's an endless list.
01:35:42.346 --> 01:35:42.616
A long
01:35:42.616 --> 01:35:42.826
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
01:35:43.276 --> 01:35:44.446
Richard Williams: longwinded answer.
01:35:45.316 --> 01:35:47.416
Rupert Isaacson: But what I think
it comes down to for people who
01:35:47.416 --> 01:35:51.886
are, who are listening or watching
is go check out Xenophon Press.
01:35:52.606 --> 01:35:54.016
Go through the centuries.
01:35:54.646 --> 01:35:58.096
Don't worry that Xenophon Press
don't actually publish Xenophon yet.
01:35:58.126 --> 01:35:59.266
'cause they will.
01:35:59.266 --> 01:36:01.276
And anyway, you can find Xenophon himself.
01:36:01.696 --> 01:36:04.726
But those others we talked about, Tamini.
01:36:07.741 --> 01:36:10.351
We'll, and we'll list
all these afterwards.
01:36:10.381 --> 01:36:13.921
You know, Stein Breen Boer, the
people that analyze Stein Breen, Boer
01:36:14.551 --> 01:36:20.431
Nuno, and the people that analyze
Nuno, and then dio de braganza.
01:36:21.331 --> 01:36:26.911
If you're into horses and you are into
what horses can bring out of the human
01:36:26.911 --> 01:36:34.891
soul, as well as how this system of kind
of yoga can really benefit a horse and
01:36:35.161 --> 01:36:38.581
how the two can come together and create
a sum that's greater than the parts.
01:36:40.381 --> 01:36:42.211
It's, it's, it's what you do, my friend.
01:36:42.211 --> 01:36:43.291
It's s on press.
01:36:43.621 --> 01:36:47.251
So listen, thank you so much
for coming on and doing this.
01:36:47.941 --> 01:36:49.381
I think we'll do it again.
01:36:49.381 --> 01:36:53.381
And for those who really want to kind
of nerd out, nerd out, nerd out Richard
01:36:53.381 --> 01:36:58.191
and I nerd out massively on YouTube
about aspects of classical writing.
01:36:59.061 --> 01:37:01.761
And you might wanna check
out some of our videos there.
01:37:01.761 --> 01:37:02.721
We've got more coming up.
01:37:03.211 --> 01:37:07.701
And we also both are gonna start teaching
together because I'm a bit of an in
01:37:07.701 --> 01:37:11.466
hand on the ground specialist, and Mr.
01:37:11.466 --> 01:37:15.441
Williams is a bit of a in the saddle
specialist, and we can kind of do
01:37:15.441 --> 01:37:17.271
our little and large show together.
01:37:17.691 --> 01:37:22.741
And we are gonna be doing that actually
to raise money for two nonprofits.
01:37:23.041 --> 01:37:27.691
The Horse Boy Foundation, which
of course, deals with autism and
01:37:27.901 --> 01:37:31.761
other neuropsychiatric conditions
of and healing with horses.
01:37:32.271 --> 01:37:38.241
And Xenophon will have its own educational
foundation as well too, so that we
01:37:38.241 --> 01:37:42.651
can keep this library of Alexandra and
Alexandria alive and not have it burned
01:37:42.651 --> 01:37:44.301
down like the other classical libraries.
01:37:45.061 --> 01:37:46.891
So watch this space basically.
01:37:47.461 --> 01:37:51.571
If they want to contact you, give us, give
us the links, give us the plugs, Richard.
01:37:52.556 --> 01:37:53.876
Richard Williams: It's very simple.
01:37:53.876 --> 01:37:57.506
It's zin press@atzinpress.com
01:37:58.046 --> 01:38:01.406
and I'm happy to, I answer all emails.
01:38:01.406 --> 01:38:03.896
It's zin press@gmail.com
01:38:05.486 --> 01:38:09.206
and happy to answer any questions we do.
01:38:09.626 --> 01:38:12.356
We also have views, books,
we outer print books.
01:38:12.356 --> 01:38:18.856
I have a book search service, so if
you're looking for a book, I can try to
01:38:18.856 --> 01:38:21.706
find it or I may, we may have copies.
01:38:23.836 --> 01:38:24.286
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
01:38:24.796 --> 01:38:28.246
So it's also if you wanna get
into the antiquary inside too.
01:38:28.251 --> 01:38:32.636
Richard Williams: Yeah, we and,
and we have williams dressage.com,
01:38:32.636 --> 01:38:34.586
which is our, our riding site.
01:38:35.096 --> 01:38:35.306
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
01:38:36.056 --> 01:38:40.136
And I do suggest rich, again, those
of you who are looking to experience
01:38:40.136 --> 01:38:42.986
this knowledge made practical.
01:38:43.226 --> 01:38:46.136
Richard has come and hung out
here with me and my horses.
01:38:46.661 --> 01:38:48.001
And I've seen him ride.
01:38:48.001 --> 01:38:48.721
I've seen him train.
01:38:48.721 --> 01:38:49.711
It's very, very good.
01:38:50.191 --> 01:38:50.881
Go check him out.
01:38:50.881 --> 01:38:52.081
And his wife Francis.
01:38:52.451 --> 01:38:57.011
If you're looking in the USA for somebody
cool to set you on the right track
01:38:57.131 --> 01:38:58.511
they'll, they'll help you with that.
01:38:59.361 --> 01:39:01.761
Richard Williams: And you're
coming to us right in June,
01:39:02.481 --> 01:39:02.931
Rupert Isaacson: yeah's, right?
01:39:02.931 --> 01:39:03.441
I am.
01:39:03.501 --> 01:39:04.821
So we need to talk about that.
01:39:05.001 --> 01:39:05.061
Yeah.
01:39:05.061 --> 01:39:07.191
Now of course these things are
evergreen, so someone could be,
01:39:07.341 --> 01:39:11.361
we're in early January, 2026 here,
but you know, hopefully someone's
01:39:11.361 --> 01:39:12.681
watching this 10 years from now.
01:39:13.011 --> 01:39:16.221
If they are, then we may
be in your hood sooner.
01:39:16.221 --> 01:39:17.691
Just looking a little bit grayer.
01:39:17.961 --> 01:39:21.976
So, yeah, we'll be, we'll be
there and working together,
01:39:21.976 --> 01:39:24.406
so watch out for us lads.
01:39:25.486 --> 01:39:25.966
Alright.
01:39:27.016 --> 01:39:27.406
Richard Williams: Thank you
01:39:27.406 --> 01:39:27.706
Rupert Isaacson: sir.
01:39:28.306 --> 01:39:28.936
My pleasure.
01:39:28.936 --> 01:39:30.466
Thank you so much for coming on.
01:39:30.826 --> 01:39:31.096
Richard Williams: Yeah.
01:39:31.306 --> 01:39:32.116
Rupert Isaacson: Until the next one.
01:39:32.234 --> 01:39:35.614
I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.
01:39:36.444 --> 01:39:40.194
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01:39:50.094 --> 01:39:50.444
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01:39:50.644 --> 01:39:53.824
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01:39:54.214 --> 01:39:58.164
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01:40:36.969 --> 01:40:40.519
I can't wait for our next guest
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01:40:41.319 --> 01:40:45.109
In the meantime, remember, live free.
01:40:46.039 --> 01:40:46.589
Ride free.