Featuring: Dajana Berisavljević Đakonović

WEBVTT
00:00:00.773 --> 00:00:06.487
Hello and welcome to Journey Lines, the podcast answering the question, how did they get there?
00:00:06.487 --> 00:00:07.988
I'm your host Kim Minnick.
00:00:07.988 --> 00:00:16.974
Each episode, I invite a guest to complete a reflective exercise plotting the ups and downs of their career against a line of neutrality.
00:00:16.974 --> 00:00:20.856
Together, we go through the highs, lows, and everything in between.
00:00:20.996 --> 00:00:28.782
My guest today, and bear with me, Diana Braseljewicz-Jukanovic.
00:00:29.806 --> 00:00:30.397
Perfect.
00:00:30.397 --> 00:00:32.023
Say it correctly.
00:00:32.549 --> 00:00:34.264
Please, please help me.
00:00:34.264 --> 00:00:37.692
Thank you! Diana Pericavljevic-Zakorović.
00:00:38.052 --> 00:00:40.165
It's much more beautiful when you say it.
00:00:40.165 --> 00:00:42.185
have to comment.
00:00:42.274 --> 00:00:43.468
You did good.
00:00:43.875 --> 00:00:46.286
Well, thank you so, so much for joining.
00:00:46.286 --> 00:00:47.820
I am so thrilled.
00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:53.468
We have been online friends for quite some time and I'm excited to dive into your story.
00:00:53.468 --> 00:00:56.462
But before we do, what do you got going on today?
00:00:56.462 --> 00:00:59.195
Personally, professionally, holistically?
00:00:59.950 --> 00:01:01.729
Thanks so much for the great intro, Kim.
00:01:01.729 --> 00:01:03.390
And thanks so much for having me here.
00:01:03.390 --> 00:01:08.549
The moment they saw the format of this podcast, was like, I have to do this exercise regardless of the podcast.
00:01:08.549 --> 00:01:10.250
It was so exciting.
00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:11.370
So thanks a lot.
00:01:11.370 --> 00:01:12.430
I appreciate it.
00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:14.349
But yeah, I am Diana.
00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:18.269
Professionally at the moment I am the head of people at Toggle.
00:01:18.269 --> 00:01:25.450
So I am orchestrating the remote operations of a fully distributed team of like 150 people.
00:01:26.170 --> 00:01:27.750
That's where I am.
00:01:27.750 --> 00:01:28.587
Personally.
00:01:28.587 --> 00:01:35.239
I'm a huge fan of arts and this is something that we will go through, we will see throughout my career journey.
00:01:35.540 --> 00:01:40.521
So arts has always been present in my life in different ways, in different, different form.
00:01:40.521 --> 00:01:47.513
But at the moment I am part of this community group in my hometown where we organize different art events throughout the year.
00:01:47.513 --> 00:01:50.024
And we just had last year like a huge music festival.
00:01:50.024 --> 00:01:55.105
So that was one of the exciting personal projects that I was part of.
00:01:55.105 --> 00:02:01.361
And personally, I just got married last year and I have a huge family here in Serbia.
00:02:01.638 --> 00:02:10.217
I mean, it's only me and my husband, but for my mother's side, I have like four aunts, nine cousins, 13 nephews and nieces.
00:02:10.217 --> 00:02:11.908
Like it's a lot of us.
00:02:11.908 --> 00:02:13.020
So that's me.
00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:14.290
That's how I spend my days.
00:02:14.290 --> 00:02:18.783
I work, I enjoy, enjoy arts and spend time with my family.
00:02:19.362 --> 00:02:21.457
I mean, what else is there to do?
00:02:21.457 --> 00:02:27.902
You've got art, you've got family, you've got work, like, living the dream over there.
00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:34.777
Right now, yeah, but it's been a lot of ups and downs up until this point.
00:02:35.064 --> 00:02:38.998
Well, I mean, I get that and I'm excited to dive into them.
00:02:38.998 --> 00:02:40.480
So why don't you kick us off?
00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:42.932
I've got your journey line for our listeners.
00:02:42.932 --> 00:02:44.996
It's linked in the comment description below.
00:02:44.996 --> 00:02:50.191
And we're kicking off with your arrival into the world.
00:02:50.401 --> 00:02:51.181
That's right.
00:02:51.181 --> 00:02:53.582
Well, it was the summer of 1992.
00:02:53.582 --> 00:02:57.844
That is when I arrived.
00:02:58.981 --> 00:03:00.866
It all started there.
00:03:01.826 --> 00:03:18.834
If I could actually, because I don't have a really great design skills, but my idea was to create some kind of like a family tree because the way I actually see my life is that, yes, I arrived in 1992, but it's also a result of all these people and everything they've done over the years before me.
00:03:18.834 --> 00:03:19.406
So yeah.
00:03:19.406 --> 00:03:22.406
It was my family, my grandparents, my mom and dad.
00:03:22.406 --> 00:03:24.686
And in 1992, there was little Diana.
00:03:25.866 --> 00:03:29.806
Unfortunately, the circumstances in which I arrived weren't ideal.
00:03:29.806 --> 00:03:31.846
It was the wartime in Serbia.
00:03:31.846 --> 00:03:39.425
I don't know how much audience is aware of the historical and geographical context, but Serbia was part of Yugoslavia.
00:03:39.425 --> 00:03:41.246
The country was breaking up.
00:03:41.246 --> 00:03:46.286
So during the 90s, there was war, not in Serbia, but in those surrounding countries.
00:03:46.286 --> 00:03:48.280
And my country was participating.
00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:49.911
participating in it.
00:03:49.911 --> 00:03:53.353
So these first formative years, of course, I have great memories.
00:03:53.353 --> 00:03:57.914
mean, my parents did the best to give me the best possible childhood.
00:03:59.075 --> 00:04:00.286
But people are struggling.
00:04:00.286 --> 00:04:02.258
People in Serbia were struggling.
00:04:02.258 --> 00:04:08.510
And just recently, one of my therapy sessions, I actually realized how much this actually shapes you.
00:04:08.510 --> 00:04:14.443
You look at people around you, you see how they're doing, and then you also learn some things.
00:04:14.683 --> 00:04:26.535
luckily to me, it's learned me a lot of resilience and this We have also this fighting spirit that you can do things in life if you are resilient enough and if you push through.
00:04:26.576 --> 00:04:29.059
So that was my early childhood.
00:04:29.059 --> 00:04:33.463
And when I was a really, really young age, I fell in lobby theater.
00:04:33.463 --> 00:04:36.737
I was only, I think, five years old when I did my first play.
00:04:36.737 --> 00:04:38.550
It was in kindergarten.
00:04:38.702 --> 00:04:39.887
love this.
00:04:39.971 --> 00:04:42.074
Tell me all about your first play.
00:04:42.074 --> 00:04:43.776
love at the first sight.
00:04:43.776 --> 00:04:49.882
I even did it, I was only five and I did it with older kids, they were seven and I got the main role.
00:04:49.882 --> 00:04:54.427
I remember there were like some other moms and parents are being pissed about it.
00:04:54.968 --> 00:04:55.463
But.
00:04:55.463 --> 00:05:00.480
wants their kid to be a star, and here you are, just undercutting these seven-year-olds.
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:02.432
Exactly, exactly.
00:05:02.432 --> 00:05:08.476
But that was up until these days, I still see acting as something like I was born to do.
00:05:08.476 --> 00:05:12.959
Unfortunately, I didn't end up in that career, but that was my first love.
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:14.572
Like that was everything for me.
00:05:14.572 --> 00:05:16.423
I loved every second of it.
00:05:16.423 --> 00:05:20.146
The first play that I did was the Snow White and Seven Dwarfs.
00:05:22.697 --> 00:05:23.687
It was really cute.
00:05:23.687 --> 00:05:25.338
was really, really cute.
00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.199
I was Snow White, yes.
00:05:29.420 --> 00:05:30.781
Exactly.
00:05:31.862 --> 00:05:37.264
So it all started back in the kindergarten and I was always the one who liked to talk.
00:05:37.264 --> 00:05:44.346
So we just like talking and talking and talking and writing and acting were always kind of my huge passions.
00:05:44.346 --> 00:05:52.779
My kindergarten teacher would actually take me to radio shows where I would talk about, don't even know what, I was so little, like five, six years old.
00:05:53.634 --> 00:05:57.382
I I don't know a lot of kids that are doing radio show tours.
00:05:57.382 --> 00:06:00.331
Look at, you must have loved the limelight.
00:06:00.331 --> 00:06:01.802
I did, I truly did.
00:06:01.802 --> 00:06:03.463
Like I truly enjoyed it.
00:06:03.463 --> 00:06:08.305
was the purpose of my life since like the very, very young age.
00:06:08.305 --> 00:06:10.889
I know like that is what I wanna do.
00:06:11.028 --> 00:06:12.750
And I continue doing it.
00:06:12.978 --> 00:06:14.942
was a musical theater kid growing up.
00:06:14.942 --> 00:06:19.209
like, I understand the call for the stage.
00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:21.156
Here we are.
00:06:21.156 --> 00:06:25.233
Here we are talking on our brand new radio show.
00:06:25.410 --> 00:06:27.576
Exactly, exactly.
00:06:28.432 --> 00:06:38.636
So how long, your next plot is that you gave up on acting and to enroll in literature studies, but like, how long was your theater journey?
00:06:38.636 --> 00:06:40.237
Yes, it was quite long actually.
00:06:40.237 --> 00:06:46.730
So if you say it started when I was around five, it was going on for the good 15 years.
00:06:46.752 --> 00:06:53.935
So I was doing it for a really long time throughout the primary school, middle school, high school.
00:06:54.865 --> 00:06:58.329
At high school, actually, I almost got expelled because I didn't go to school.
00:06:58.329 --> 00:07:00.440
I spent all my time at theater.
00:07:01.141 --> 00:07:01.451
So.
00:07:01.451 --> 00:07:02.541
this like a community?
00:07:02.541 --> 00:07:06.937
Because in America, like growing up, all of my theater stuff was in school.
00:07:06.937 --> 00:07:10.360
Like we would have after school plays and this was all like community.
00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:13.208
You were going like the big time.
00:07:13.208 --> 00:07:14.278
Yep, yep, yep.
00:07:14.278 --> 00:07:16.790
It was actually, I was part of the local drama group.
00:07:16.790 --> 00:07:18.672
First, it was the group for kids.
00:07:18.672 --> 00:07:21.704
So it was all the kids and we were doing like plays for kids.
00:07:21.704 --> 00:07:27.077
But then later I was actually part of the drama group with like adult actors in our local theater.
00:07:27.077 --> 00:07:28.317
So we will be doing plays.
00:07:28.317 --> 00:07:32.620
We were actually having tours, like traveling all around the Serbia with our plays.
00:07:32.620 --> 00:07:39.846
And it was, that was me like living my best life in the end of elementary school and like high school.
00:07:40.752 --> 00:07:57.488
School while I was always like academically really successful, but for me it was just like the formality I would have like really good grades, but then skip classes to actually be able to to do my acting and actress life Amazing.
00:07:57.488 --> 00:08:01.526
I also skipped classes to do drama, but my grades were not as good.
00:08:01.526 --> 00:08:05.622
I did not play the field correctly, if you will.
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:08.723
I did my best.
00:08:09.057 --> 00:08:09.918
I love that.
00:08:09.918 --> 00:08:14.204
So you have all of this time in theater and then you change.
00:08:14.204 --> 00:08:14.975
I mean, I get it.
00:08:14.975 --> 00:08:17.355
I left theater around 20.
00:08:18.249 --> 00:08:18.939
What happened?
00:08:18.939 --> 00:08:20.331
What made that decision?
00:08:21.117 --> 00:08:22.658
That's a good question.
00:08:22.658 --> 00:08:33.943
And it's one of those breaking points in life, which if I look back at time and think like, if I made the different decision back then, probably I would have had a completely different life.
00:08:33.943 --> 00:08:37.445
But the thing is, it was my parents and especially my father.
00:08:37.445 --> 00:08:43.047
So it was the end of high school and it was time to decide to what college I'm going to go to.
00:08:43.368 --> 00:08:45.368
I only wanted to go to drama.
00:08:45.368 --> 00:08:46.489
I only wanted to do that.
00:08:46.489 --> 00:08:48.529
I didn't want anything else.
00:08:48.529 --> 00:08:49.515
But now...
00:08:49.515 --> 00:08:56.847
I told you the context where I grew up at and the thing is, Serbia is not really economically strong country.
00:08:57.008 --> 00:09:05.629
Also, you can't really have a decent living if you're doing acting unless you move out and go to some other country.
00:09:05.629 --> 00:09:14.753
So my father, out of all of the love that he has to me and all of the caring that he has to me, he vetoed that and he was like, no.
00:09:14.852 --> 00:09:19.573
So it was months of fighting, a lot of tears, a lot of heartbreak.
00:09:20.732 --> 00:09:22.134
I still wasn't ready.
00:09:22.134 --> 00:09:22.833
I was 18.
00:09:22.833 --> 00:09:25.953
I still wasn't ready to say like, hey, this is what I want to do.
00:09:25.953 --> 00:09:30.474
And if you don't want to support me, I'm just going to go and live on my own and support myself.
00:09:31.673 --> 00:09:33.193
That's another thing about Serbia.
00:09:33.193 --> 00:09:39.854
We don't really have a system where we can both work and study and earn enough to actually make a living.
00:09:39.854 --> 00:09:41.573
So it's really tough.
00:09:41.634 --> 00:09:41.942
Yeah.
00:09:41.942 --> 00:09:42.932
you...
00:09:43.133 --> 00:09:51.977
So there wasn't going to be an option like, I'm 18, I'm moving out, I'll figure it out on my own and I'm going to pursue this acting dream.
00:09:52.619 --> 00:09:53.274
Not an option.
00:09:53.274 --> 00:09:54.897
have been really tough.
00:09:54.897 --> 00:09:56.727
Like I consider myself a tough person.
00:09:56.727 --> 00:09:58.198
Like I can do whatever I want.
00:09:58.198 --> 00:10:01.240
Like whatever I set my mind to, I'm going to achieve it.
00:10:01.341 --> 00:10:03.583
Back then, that would have been really tough.
00:10:03.583 --> 00:10:12.692
Like to find a decent job, to be able to pay for apartment, for food, for groceries, and to study, it's pretty much impossible in Belgrade.
00:10:12.692 --> 00:10:20.302
Unfortunately, that's why a lot of people, young age and students, they didn't have their parents supporting them.
00:10:20.302 --> 00:10:23.261
they can't really start studying, they have to find work.
00:10:24.201 --> 00:10:34.201
It's just the situation that it is, that the country is in, that it was back then and that is still.
00:10:34.402 --> 00:10:36.121
So yeah, a lot of fighting.
00:10:36.121 --> 00:10:39.481
And then my father's proposal was that I enroll to pharmacy.
00:10:39.481 --> 00:10:42.261
And I was like, no, that was my veto.
00:10:42.261 --> 00:10:46.412
was like, his idea was that.
00:10:46.412 --> 00:10:47.712
that's going to make a good living.
00:10:47.712 --> 00:10:49.553
That's going to give you like a stable wage.
00:10:49.553 --> 00:10:52.315
You can start your own business, yada, yada, yada.
00:10:52.315 --> 00:10:54.226
But I was like, no way.
00:10:54.226 --> 00:10:59.820
So I was, I was ready to make some compromises, but for me, I wasn't ready.
00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:04.672
Like I could never betray myself like that to like enroll to pharmacy.
00:11:04.952 --> 00:11:17.653
So in the end we managed to find a middle ground and I enrolled to a literature studies, but actually I enrolled to private college in Serbia where The college is modeled like your colleges in the US.
00:11:17.653 --> 00:11:23.153
So I had like the major topic, which was literature, and then I had minors and it was communications.
00:11:23.153 --> 00:11:29.313
So the idea was that I could still study art, but I would get a degree in something useful.
00:11:29.893 --> 00:11:31.144
I mean, it makes sense, right?
00:11:31.144 --> 00:11:36.350
Like literature, words, using them well, impactfully.
00:11:36.350 --> 00:11:41.134
Communication, words, using them well, impactfully.
00:11:41.442 --> 00:11:45.149
How was that conversation with your family?
00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:50.206
Because I imagine like you all are coming from opposite ends and need to find this middle point.
00:11:50.206 --> 00:11:51.466
What was that like?
00:11:51.597 --> 00:11:52.638
Absolutely.
00:11:52.638 --> 00:11:57.422
I mean, being 18 years old, like you're still a teenager, you're so angry.
00:11:58.097 --> 00:12:01.427
So it was absolutely, absolutely.
00:12:01.427 --> 00:12:07.910
I was lucky that I always had my mom on my side and she was trying to be supportive.
00:12:08.852 --> 00:12:12.014
But with that, was just, it was tough.
00:12:12.014 --> 00:12:16.860
mean, right now at this age, I can understand his view and I can totally understand it.
00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:19.981
Back then I couldn't, like from that position.
00:12:20.014 --> 00:12:21.333
I couldn't get it at all.
00:12:21.333 --> 00:12:22.833
was like, why do you hate me?
00:12:22.833 --> 00:12:23.894
I'm your kid.
00:12:24.014 --> 00:12:25.994
Like, why don't you want to help me?
00:12:25.994 --> 00:12:27.134
Why don't you want to support me?
00:12:27.134 --> 00:12:28.673
What do I want to do?
00:12:29.894 --> 00:12:30.813
Exactly.
00:12:31.293 --> 00:12:32.014
Exactly.
00:12:32.014 --> 00:12:32.933
Exactly.
00:12:33.514 --> 00:12:50.193
It's a big question how happy I would be because looking at our current situation in the country, looking at our actors, the way they're living, the way they are like fighting for their dreams and for their space in society and in community, it's extremely tough.
00:12:51.317 --> 00:12:55.379
so it took me some time to like forgive my father for this.
00:12:55.379 --> 00:13:00.903
I have to say that I was really holding a grudge for years that he didn't let me do it.
00:13:00.903 --> 00:13:02.717
I mean, in the end, it was my decision.
00:13:02.717 --> 00:13:05.583
I was old enough to make my own choices.
00:13:06.344 --> 00:13:08.466
but the conversation was.
00:13:09.666 --> 00:13:12.086
Really all the conversations were really tough.
00:13:12.086 --> 00:13:18.254
If I could give any advice to any, any, any young people listening is always.
00:13:18.254 --> 00:13:21.683
Try to put yourself in other people's, other person's shoes.
00:13:21.683 --> 00:13:24.308
That's something we don't do when we are that young.
00:13:25.004 --> 00:13:30.311
It's something we don't do through a lot of our 20s or even as adults.
00:13:30.311 --> 00:13:37.778
Yeah, sometimes it's hard to really see like, this person wants me to do something that I hate and why?
00:13:37.778 --> 00:13:44.014
Like, is there genuine care and love behind this awful ask?
00:13:44.063 --> 00:13:51.153
Exactly, exactly, So it took you years, I imagine you mended things.
00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:52.855
Yeah, we're dead.
00:13:53.571 --> 00:13:54.390
Amazing.
00:13:54.390 --> 00:14:01.942
you, so you enrolled in literature and exchange to the US over on my side of the pond.
00:14:01.942 --> 00:14:02.822
Exactly.
00:14:02.822 --> 00:14:06.845
So I started doing this literature and communications in Serbia.
00:14:06.845 --> 00:14:07.926
I did two years.
00:14:07.926 --> 00:14:18.133
I was so lucky to be part of that college as well because it was so forward thinking, so not conventional to like Serbian education system.
00:14:18.133 --> 00:14:22.936
And it also put me in a really good, really good position to apply for scholarships.
00:14:22.936 --> 00:14:28.158
So I got a scholarship from the state department and I went for an exchange year in Minnesota.
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.902
I spent a year in Mankato at the university.
00:14:32.083 --> 00:14:38.140
And I can say, I think that is the year where my heart and my mind and my soul opened to the world.
00:14:38.140 --> 00:14:39.522
That was amazing.
00:14:39.522 --> 00:14:49.513
That was a once in a lifetime experience of exchange year, international community, international friends, getting to know other way of living, other country.
00:14:50.234 --> 00:14:51.264
So I love that.
00:14:51.264 --> 00:14:54.097
I loved every day and every second of it.
00:14:54.394 --> 00:14:59.416
How was that like cultural shift, that location shift?
00:14:59.416 --> 00:15:03.855
Like what was that experience like for you?
00:15:04.183 --> 00:15:07.573
was mind blowing, especially coming from Serbia.
00:15:07.573 --> 00:15:11.735
US for us is like Disneyland.
00:15:12.296 --> 00:15:13.826
It is the end goal.
00:15:13.826 --> 00:15:17.238
Like every person in Serbia just like dreams about living in the US.
00:15:17.238 --> 00:15:19.357
Like US is the promised country.
00:15:19.357 --> 00:15:22.198
This is the place that you see only in movies.
00:15:22.339 --> 00:15:29.740
So like coming there and like seeing all of these things like in real life, it was truly mind blowing.
00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:33.289
It was literally like a little kid exploring the world.
00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:35.692
and seeing the world for the first time.
00:15:35.692 --> 00:15:44.097
Everything was new, everything was exciting, especially that there was not only US students at the college, but a huge international community.
00:15:44.097 --> 00:15:48.160
So this is the first time where I actually connected with people from other countries.
00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:53.625
I had like three best friends from Saudi Arabia, Tunis and Egypt.
00:15:53.625 --> 00:15:58.347
So I learned a lot about their culture, their way of living.
00:15:58.788 --> 00:16:00.971
It was truly, truly exciting.
00:16:00.971 --> 00:16:04.477
I get excited now when I remember it and talk about it.
00:16:04.859 --> 00:16:06.162
Come back, come visit.
00:16:06.162 --> 00:16:08.398
It's different now, but come on.
00:16:08.398 --> 00:16:09.349
in April.
00:16:11.140 --> 00:16:15.794
You are! I mean, not to skip ahead, but where you going?
00:16:15.794 --> 00:16:19.969
I will be staying for a couple of weeks in Texas, coming for a conference.
00:16:19.969 --> 00:16:22.912
So we'll be traveling around a bit as well.
00:16:23.259 --> 00:16:28.662
All right, well, just keep me updated, because if I can, if you can come to Texas, I can probably make it to Texas.
00:16:28.662 --> 00:16:35.740
Will do, will do, absolutely! right, so you spend some time in the US.
00:16:37.024 --> 00:16:44.212
get your bachelor's with not just communications, not just literature, but dabbled in some digital marketing as well.
00:16:44.212 --> 00:16:45.995
What got you interested in that?
00:16:46.003 --> 00:16:46.734
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:46.734 --> 00:16:50.687
My thirst for knowledge somehow just never stopped.
00:16:50.687 --> 00:16:57.614
So this actually degree in digital marketing, it came a bit later after this, during this NGO life.
00:16:57.634 --> 00:17:01.477
So I actually got the bachelor in communications and literature.
00:17:01.477 --> 00:17:04.480
And then I was like, okay, now it's time for me to start working.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:09.064
I was ready to start my official working career.
00:17:09.301 --> 00:17:13.827
So I already knew what I wanted to do before I left for US.
00:17:13.827 --> 00:17:18.210
I was already doing some voluntary projects with this NGO in Belgrade.
00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:20.832
It's called Youth Initiative for Human Rights.
00:17:20.832 --> 00:17:26.795
And it was a group of young people that had offices in all of the countries from ex Yugoslavia.
00:17:26.795 --> 00:17:34.828
So like Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, not Macedonia, think.
00:17:34.828 --> 00:17:36.140
Now I can't remember.
00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.141
But anyways, we had Montenegro.
00:17:38.141 --> 00:17:39.500
Montenegro.
00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:41.200
Exactly.
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:53.673
And that was, think, I still, even with the whole acting and everything, this is when I truly felt that I'm making the biggest change in the world.
00:17:53.673 --> 00:18:03.656
This was the work that actually gave me the biggest sense of purpose because the idea of this NGO, the topics were really difficult to deal with.
00:18:03.656 --> 00:18:08.750
These were the NGOs dealing with the topics and traditional justice.
00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:11.391
So we had a war, our country split up.
00:18:11.511 --> 00:18:12.731
It was a lot of shit.
00:18:12.731 --> 00:18:14.742
There is still lot of shit going on.
00:18:14.742 --> 00:18:19.486
Like people, exactly.
00:18:19.486 --> 00:18:22.017
Exactly.
00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:27.000
A lot of people who are not held responsible for the things they did during the 90s.
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:31.761
A lot of these people still holding positions of powers in all of our countries.
00:18:31.801 --> 00:18:38.865
And we of course have the shittiest nationalistic narrative, which is the same in each of our countries.
00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:43.769
representing yourself as the victim, representing everybody else as the bad guys.
00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:51.549
And then the whole idea behind this NGO was to actually reconnect the youth, young people from all of the countries and to talk about these things.
00:18:51.549 --> 00:18:57.869
Like, okay, let's sit down, let's educate ourselves what actually happened and let's talk about it.
00:18:58.150 --> 00:19:01.430
I've never seen, I've got goosebumps talking about it.
00:19:01.430 --> 00:19:05.730
I never seen a stronger community in my life than community in that NGO.
00:19:06.430 --> 00:19:08.970
I spent only two years there.
00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:26.670
In my head, it feels like it's been 15 years because there's been so many things, so many projects, so many people that I met and this huge feeling of purpose and being proud of actually making a change or at least trying to make a change.
00:19:27.161 --> 00:19:49.143
least trying to I feel like that's so it's such an act of rebellion almost educating the youth on what actually happened ideally to prevent it again what what sort of projects were you taking on what initiatives were you working on if you can share Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:19:49.163 --> 00:19:52.465
A lot of it was actually based on exchange programs as well.
00:19:52.465 --> 00:19:56.459
So we would take people from Bosnia, bring them to Belgrade.
00:19:56.459 --> 00:20:00.111
We would take people from Belgrade and go to Kosovo, to Pristina.
00:20:00.111 --> 00:20:06.566
We would also organize artistic events as well, but also do the exchange of artists.
00:20:06.566 --> 00:20:12.980
Like artists from Sarajevo would come to Belgrade, artists from Belgrade would go to Montenegro, vice versa.
00:20:12.980 --> 00:20:15.021
So it was a lot of movement.
00:20:15.246 --> 00:20:26.006
And actually one of the huge things that we did is that we established a regional youth cooperation office with the government of Germany in France, I believe.
00:20:26.006 --> 00:20:29.185
It was one of the last projects that I did back there.
00:20:29.185 --> 00:20:30.165
It was just the start.
00:20:30.165 --> 00:20:38.625
I think that project is still ongoing and it's pretty big, which does these big exchange programs, big exchange youth programs in the region.
00:20:38.885 --> 00:20:42.465
Then we had summits, conferences, all kinds of things.
00:20:42.465 --> 00:20:45.013
And of course, a lot of work was done in the streets.
00:20:45.013 --> 00:20:49.440
organizing protests, organizing pride.
00:20:49.881 --> 00:20:56.609
We did like three years in a row, we were one of the main organizers of the Pride Parade in Belgrade.
00:20:58.794 --> 00:21:01.657
Yeah, I think these were the biggest ones.
00:21:03.010 --> 00:21:13.376
wild and I'm curious did your international exchange experience kind of support some of your ideas initiatives or like passion for that?
00:21:13.869 --> 00:21:15.490
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:15.789
Yes.
00:21:15.789 --> 00:21:30.569
I I also think I always had this instill curiosity myself for other people and for other ways of living, which were also like came to life during the exchange year at the US.
00:21:30.569 --> 00:21:34.910
But then also when I came back, I wanted to know these people.
00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:36.029
I wanted to know my neighbors.
00:21:36.029 --> 00:21:42.049
We grew up in Serbia and you know, it's around the countries like in school didn't teach you what happened during the nineties.
00:21:42.102 --> 00:21:43.182
Nobody talks about it.
00:21:43.182 --> 00:21:47.342
Your parents wouldn't tell you, your teachers wouldn't tell you.
00:21:47.886 --> 00:21:50.509
Like for example, there was a siege of Sarajevo.
00:21:50.509 --> 00:21:52.971
The city was under siege for four years.
00:21:52.971 --> 00:21:55.913
I was 25 years old when I learned about that.
00:21:55.913 --> 00:21:56.634
And it is like...
00:21:56.634 --> 00:21:59.894
four years and they just swept it?
00:21:59.894 --> 00:22:01.434
Like, no, that didn't happen.
00:22:01.434 --> 00:22:02.914
We'll just...
00:22:02.914 --> 00:22:05.734
That's wild.
00:22:06.307 --> 00:22:09.847
thing among a long list of other things.
00:22:09.887 --> 00:22:17.390
And I was 25 years old when I found out, like for the first time, in Sarajevo, it's like five hours away from my city.
00:22:17.390 --> 00:22:21.151
Like I sit in the car, I'm there five hours, it's it's right there.
00:22:21.151 --> 00:22:23.511
It's another part of the world.
00:22:23.731 --> 00:22:28.133
So I was mind blown when I started like realizing all of it.
00:22:28.133 --> 00:22:32.046
And when I realized that it just happened and we don't know about it.
00:22:32.046 --> 00:22:34.685
And we are still having the same politicians in power.
00:22:34.685 --> 00:22:36.746
We are being fed the same narrative.
00:22:38.086 --> 00:22:44.246
My generation, a generation younger than me, still have no idea about it.
00:22:45.026 --> 00:22:53.026
So it was, I truly felt a dislike on the mission to educate young people on it and to make them understand.
00:22:53.026 --> 00:22:58.905
And then when you see people from all of these countries getting together and talking, you realize we're all the same.
00:23:00.076 --> 00:23:04.554
It's never the people fighting, it's the influence.
00:23:04.554 --> 00:23:10.551
Because you're right, you come together, you've experienced the same horrors, you live in the same region.
00:23:10.551 --> 00:23:17.411
It's actually not as horrific as maybe we have been led to believe and then hidden.
00:23:17.582 --> 00:23:19.722
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:23:19.722 --> 00:23:23.683
And especially there is still a lot of fear in our region nowadays.
00:23:23.683 --> 00:23:26.544
Like people from Belgrade are afraid to go to Kosovo.
00:23:26.544 --> 00:23:30.045
People from Kosovo are afraid to come to Serbia.
00:23:30.546 --> 00:23:32.766
A lot of tension that media is creating.
00:23:32.766 --> 00:23:37.657
And then like I was 25 years old when I went to Kosovo for the first time, extremely scared.
00:23:37.657 --> 00:23:42.398
I'm like, I'm going there and you have no idea like what could happen.
00:23:42.398 --> 00:23:44.028
Like somebody's gonna kill you in the street.
00:23:44.028 --> 00:23:46.539
Then you go and you realize nothing will happen.
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.971
It's so chill, it's so fine.
00:23:49.378 --> 00:23:50.159
Nothing.
00:23:50.159 --> 00:23:54.871
We have humans have such a strong fear of the unknown.
00:23:54.871 --> 00:24:09.146
And then when we're things to increase that fear, when I first moved away from my mother into like a larger city in the U.S., I remember her, okay, well, whatever happens to you happens to you.
00:24:09.146 --> 00:24:10.827
You've lived a good life.
00:24:10.827 --> 00:24:11.208
what?
00:24:11.208 --> 00:24:14.989
I'm there's just sidewalks here like anywhere else.
00:24:14.989 --> 00:24:25.971
So I understand how that fear can just grow and taking the step to visit other countries or learn like shatters some of that fear, but it's so hard to do.
00:24:28.271 --> 00:24:32.598
So you're at this NGO for you said two years, but it felt like 15.
00:24:32.598 --> 00:24:33.798
absolutely.
00:24:33.798 --> 00:24:38.040
And the second year I decided, I want to go back to college.
00:24:38.121 --> 00:24:44.663
So while I was working at the NGO, I enrolled back to college because I wanted to learn more about digital marketing.
00:24:44.983 --> 00:24:50.355
At this NGO, I was doing some project management, and then I was also doing a bit of digital marketing.
00:24:50.355 --> 00:24:52.846
And I was like, OK, I want to learn more.
00:24:53.007 --> 00:24:59.849
So I enrolled to one additional year of BA, and it was about digital marketing.
00:25:00.096 --> 00:25:08.153
It was lovely until it wasn't, it was great to learn throughout the year, but then the time for exams came and I was, it was too much.
00:25:08.153 --> 00:25:11.214
It was too much to do the exams and do the work.
00:25:12.196 --> 00:25:16.069
the main reason was that this NGO life, it wasn't work.
00:25:16.069 --> 00:25:17.682
It wasn't nine to five.
00:25:17.682 --> 00:25:19.804
It wasn't during the work day.
00:25:19.804 --> 00:25:22.145
was literally consuming my whole life.
00:25:22.145 --> 00:25:24.007
was 24 seven.
00:25:24.007 --> 00:25:27.243
Like I was on a mission at some point it was even.
00:25:27.243 --> 00:25:30.025
the case that four of us from the office, we started living together.
00:25:30.025 --> 00:25:35.707
Because we were like, we're together 24-7 anyway, so we're just going to rent an apartment together.
00:25:35.707 --> 00:25:40.558
So it was work from night and day all the time.
00:25:40.558 --> 00:25:48.182
And it's actually really bring out not only that, not only like the temple, but also at some point.
00:25:50.942 --> 00:25:57.464
I think I was hit with harsh reality how hard and how difficult it is to make a lasting change in our society.
00:25:57.744 --> 00:26:01.905
And then I realized that it's not worth my life.
00:26:02.366 --> 00:26:06.728
And that was the moment where I decided that I had to change something.
00:26:07.148 --> 00:26:08.469
It was huge.
00:26:09.595 --> 00:26:13.661
That's a huge recognition to say this is such important work.
00:26:13.661 --> 00:26:15.147
It's not worth my life.
00:26:15.147 --> 00:26:17.378
Yes, yes.
00:26:17.378 --> 00:26:20.460
That was a really, really tough decision to make.
00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:21.810
I was wrapping up the college.
00:26:21.810 --> 00:26:23.921
I did the digital marketing part.
00:26:25.541 --> 00:26:38.606
Not to go into all of the details, but all this work, which was so exciting, and exchange programs and everything, it's followed by with also really dark reality, where sometimes you have police escort, sometimes you have life threats.
00:26:39.367 --> 00:26:48.852
Sometimes you're like called out for being a traitor of your nation because you're not saying that everybody else is bad and we are good guys.
00:26:50.012 --> 00:26:50.873
It's a lot.
00:26:50.873 --> 00:26:54.664
And for somebody that's young, of course, I didn't realize how young I was back then.
00:26:54.664 --> 00:26:57.875
I was so capable for everything.
00:26:58.396 --> 00:27:01.478
It was a lot that it took at all only later.
00:27:01.478 --> 00:27:06.440
I wasn't even realizing how difficult it is.
00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:14.670
And especially because, of course, We are dealing, working with young people, but there was a lot of fun in it.
00:27:14.971 --> 00:27:27.482
But the main topics we were talking about, like war crimes, transitional justice, responsibilities, genocide, like these are the topics that stay in back of your head that they're always there with you.
00:27:27.542 --> 00:27:30.846
And they're taking the toll without you even realizing it.
00:27:31.843 --> 00:27:42.416
Yeah, I don't know a lot of people in their 20s or 30s who are actively trying to pursue war criminals or fight against genocide.
00:27:42.416 --> 00:27:56.472
mean, unfortunately, I think we're seeing more folks get involved in those actions, but to do it as a 24-7 job with your roommates, I can understand burnout and anxiety and panic attacks.
00:27:56.472 --> 00:28:01.515
It's like, you know there's a bear chasing you and that bear is right behind you all the time.
00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:03.511
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:28:03.511 --> 00:28:08.134
And for me, it even, it didn't start while I was at the NGO.
00:28:08.134 --> 00:28:12.699
I actually made the decision to, I needed a cut.
00:28:12.699 --> 00:28:14.441
I felt like I needed a clean slate.
00:28:14.441 --> 00:28:20.204
I knew I don't want my life to stay in these topics.
00:28:20.565 --> 00:28:26.911
The main reason was that disappointment of, I stopped believing we could make a real change.
00:28:26.911 --> 00:28:31.594
And unfortunately up to nowadays, nothing really changed.
00:28:32.105 --> 00:28:34.237
I stopped believing that the government will change.
00:28:34.237 --> 00:28:36.946
I stopped believing that these politicians would change.
00:28:36.946 --> 00:28:44.308
And I was like, okay, I don't want to spend another 10 years here without actually making a big difference.
00:28:44.308 --> 00:28:47.130
So I knew I wanted like completely to pivot.
00:28:47.130 --> 00:28:49.391
And this was my pivot moment.
00:28:49.391 --> 00:28:53.652
I was like, okay, I need to figure out something else.
00:28:54.991 --> 00:28:57.153
And I had the vision.
00:28:57.373 --> 00:29:01.074
actually, while I was working at the NGO, I used toggle track.
00:29:01.526 --> 00:29:08.430
I use like the time management app to track projects, to track how much time I spent on what, yada, yada, yada.
00:29:08.430 --> 00:29:17.255
And I was a huge fan of the, I was reading Toggle track blog and I knew about their working and I knew about like remote tea, remote culture.
00:29:17.255 --> 00:29:20.666
And it all sounded like, my God, this is like, this is a dream.
00:29:20.666 --> 00:29:22.518
This, this can't be true.
00:29:22.538 --> 00:29:30.321
So Toggle opened a position for marketing manager and I actually recommended it to my best friend.
00:29:31.051 --> 00:29:36.044
I told her like, Hey, this awesome company that I've been following had this position open.
00:29:36.044 --> 00:29:36.763
should apply.
00:29:36.763 --> 00:29:38.724
She applied and she got a job.
00:29:38.785 --> 00:29:45.438
So she started working at toggle and she started like traveling the world, going to the meetups, they're going to conferences.
00:29:45.438 --> 00:29:47.588
was like, okay, I need to get in.
00:29:47.588 --> 00:29:50.240
And that was, knew I wanted to get into toggle.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.201
So it wasn't like any company.
00:29:52.201 --> 00:29:53.431
wasn't SAS.
00:29:53.431 --> 00:29:55.451
It wasn't no, it was toggle.
00:29:55.451 --> 00:29:57.491
knew, I knew I want this one.
00:29:58.593 --> 00:30:00.653
What I did is actually.
00:30:01.291 --> 00:30:06.471
I, back in time, I live in Belgrade and then I completely burned out.
00:30:06.471 --> 00:30:11.028
It was a mix of like professional disappointment, personal disappointment.
00:30:11.028 --> 00:30:14.603
There was a heartbreaking love story somewhere in there as well.
00:30:14.989 --> 00:30:15.849
Always, always.
00:30:15.849 --> 00:30:22.386
The heartbreak is the undertone that sometimes gets surfaced and sometimes, yeah, it'll change things.
00:30:23.368 --> 00:30:25.508
Tough times in Belgrade.
00:30:25.508 --> 00:30:25.888
yeah.
00:30:25.888 --> 00:30:29.260
And then it was, I was finishing college and then I was done with college.
00:30:29.260 --> 00:30:30.961
I quit my job at the NGO.
00:30:30.961 --> 00:30:36.317
was like, I'm moving back to my hometown to figure things out and to see what I want to do.
00:30:36.698 --> 00:30:38.078
So I moved back.
00:30:38.078 --> 00:30:47.686
spent, I think like two months obsessively following Toggle's website and like waiting for them to post jobs.
00:30:47.768 --> 00:30:50.869
I remember I applied once and got rejected.
00:30:51.327 --> 00:30:55.499
And then they posted another role for team building manager.
00:30:56.517 --> 00:30:58.844
You're like, hold on, I know about community work.
00:30:58.857 --> 00:30:59.778
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:59.778 --> 00:31:02.661
I was like, okay, this is my way to get in.
00:31:02.661 --> 00:31:06.884
So I applied and I started working at Tuggle in February 2017.
00:31:06.884 --> 00:31:10.917
And I started living my dream.
00:31:10.917 --> 00:31:12.410
I started traveling.
00:31:12.410 --> 00:31:15.438
I was part of this like amazing remote team.
00:31:15.438 --> 00:31:18.314
I was doing something that truly, truly enjoy.
00:31:18.335 --> 00:31:27.142
And only then actually my panic attacks and burnout, it caught up with me like two months in when I started at Tuggle and I was so confused.
00:31:27.287 --> 00:31:37.150
It is such a delayed reaction because I think you're like going from this high stress environment to moving home, trying to find a new job, trying to figure out what's next.
00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:42.686
And finally, when you get a second to breathe, you're like, no, I can't breathe.
00:31:42.976 --> 00:31:44.336
Exactly, exactly.
00:31:44.336 --> 00:31:45.646
You describe it so well.
00:31:45.646 --> 00:31:47.768
That's exactly what happened.
00:31:48.167 --> 00:31:54.191
It was a scary, scary, actually two years because I didn't know these were panic attacks.
00:31:54.191 --> 00:32:03.374
When they started, I would like feel lightheaded, be dizzy, know, like feeling like not going out, not being really social.
00:32:03.515 --> 00:32:07.997
And I couldn't figure out what it was, especially people who knew me.
00:32:07.997 --> 00:32:11.213
I'm like extremely outgoing, extremely extroverted.
00:32:11.213 --> 00:32:14.634
loud, wordy, I don't stop.
00:32:14.634 --> 00:32:17.054
It's like I have energy.
00:32:17.673 --> 00:32:21.273
Nobody could ever guess that I'm like being anxious and having panic attacks.
00:32:21.273 --> 00:32:24.094
So we were all convinced that it's something physical.
00:32:24.094 --> 00:32:37.153
So for like almost two years, I spent like time going from doctor to doctor, spending huge amounts of money on like blood tests, all kinds of different tests, starting to figure out what it was.
00:32:37.153 --> 00:32:38.253
And we just couldn't figure it out.
00:32:38.253 --> 00:32:40.074
It was getting worse and worse.
00:32:40.511 --> 00:32:43.824
At some point he got so much out of hand that I couldn't keep my house.
00:32:43.824 --> 00:32:50.877
So I had like two weeks of literally like staying in one room because I couldn't go to the store.
00:32:50.877 --> 00:32:51.828
would feel so dizzy.
00:32:51.828 --> 00:32:55.510
Like the moment I would go out, everything would start spinning.
00:32:56.211 --> 00:32:57.511
So scary.
00:32:58.532 --> 00:33:00.703
It was extremely scary.
00:33:01.521 --> 00:33:04.846
first one that was like, hey, maybe this is mental, not physical?
00:33:04.846 --> 00:33:05.508
Was it you?
00:33:05.508 --> 00:33:09.359
my best friend, my best friend who knew me since I was born.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:16.403
Like she's two years older than me and we grew up literally in a house next to each other.
00:33:17.343 --> 00:33:18.743
So she gave me the hint.
00:33:18.743 --> 00:33:21.924
She was like, hey, something is off.
00:33:21.924 --> 00:33:24.766
Like maybe you should go and try talking to somebody.
00:33:24.767 --> 00:33:26.027
And I was like, okay.
00:33:26.027 --> 00:33:28.288
So I went to see a psychiatrist.
00:33:28.288 --> 00:33:31.269
She diagnosed me like three minutes, I think.
00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:33.289
It was tough.
00:33:34.472 --> 00:33:37.442
Anxiety, probably some PTSD in there.
00:33:37.442 --> 00:33:39.625
Absolutely, it was like this.
00:33:39.786 --> 00:33:43.672
But when that happened, was like, that was the first time I could finally breathe.
00:33:43.672 --> 00:33:46.415
I was like, thanks God, like I know what it is now.
00:33:46.415 --> 00:33:47.989
I know I will deal with it.
00:33:47.989 --> 00:33:51.323
Like I will find a way to deal with it, whatever it is.
00:33:51.564 --> 00:33:52.805
And then it's just the...
00:33:52.805 --> 00:33:55.328
answer just helps you.
00:33:55.328 --> 00:33:56.509
okay.
00:33:56.589 --> 00:33:57.872
I can handle this now.
00:33:57.872 --> 00:33:58.963
I know what this is.
00:33:58.963 --> 00:34:00.414
I can approach it better.
00:34:00.501 --> 00:34:01.182
Absolutely.
00:34:01.182 --> 00:34:07.685
That fear of unknown and feeling of being out of control was something extremely scary for me.
00:34:07.685 --> 00:34:10.458
But I don't know what it is, so I can't tackle it.
00:34:10.458 --> 00:34:11.927
I can't improve it.
00:34:12.409 --> 00:34:15.610
But once I figured it out, then I started on my healing journey.
00:34:15.610 --> 00:34:20.893
It was years of medication, therapy, all different kinds of therapy.
00:34:22.295 --> 00:34:25.396
But it truly improved my life in all different kinds of ways.
00:34:25.396 --> 00:34:28.130
Like you get to know yourself better.
00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:31.811
You get to know what you want to do, what you don't want to do in life.
00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:37.396
I got to meet my husband during this healing journey.
00:34:37.797 --> 00:34:42.541
So somehow all the pieces started falling in right places.
00:34:42.541 --> 00:34:53.809
And to be honest, one of the things that I'm most grateful for is actually Toggle and Toggle as a company and Toggle environment because I was able to heal in that environment.
00:34:56.630 --> 00:34:58.824
And that is the main reason why I'm still there.
00:34:58.824 --> 00:35:00.318
Like it's been eight years.
00:35:00.318 --> 00:35:05.989
And if you look at the current market at a current state of things, like it was crazy enough to stay at the same company for eight years.
00:35:05.989 --> 00:35:08.527
Like, why would anybody do that?
00:35:08.527 --> 00:35:19.717
I mean, or who's lucky enough to stay at the same company and grow because kicking back to the original conversation, you're the head of people and you started as a, what was it?
00:35:19.717 --> 00:35:22.041
A team, team building manager.
00:35:22.041 --> 00:35:28.387
So that is, I mean, that's a wild eight year career path that we can start getting into now.
00:35:28.387 --> 00:35:32.271
So you got your first job there, celebration all around.
00:35:32.405 --> 00:35:33.346
Absolutely.
00:35:33.346 --> 00:35:35.547
So happy and through the roof.
00:35:35.547 --> 00:35:40.733
My first job was booking plane tickets and booking hotels like manual.
00:35:40.733 --> 00:35:51.431
If you didn't even have a system or a tool for it, it was literally like going to Skyscanner, scanning the flights, taking screenshots, sending it to people and be like, choose one, then like book it for them.
00:35:51.431 --> 00:35:53.583
So that was my first job at toggle.
00:35:54.865 --> 00:35:55.916
Back then.
00:35:56.105 --> 00:36:02.106
really getting in the logistics, people's preferences, you're getting to know people.
00:36:02.106 --> 00:36:09.038
I think there's a lot of good that comes from those like administratively focused team building roles.
00:36:09.038 --> 00:36:10.117
Absolutely.
00:36:10.117 --> 00:36:11.018
Absolutely.
00:36:11.137 --> 00:36:17.737
And then even after my first year, think I would just started like filling in the gaps.
00:36:17.737 --> 00:36:20.737
Like I would see something needs to be done and I would jump on it.
00:36:20.737 --> 00:36:25.297
We were a really small team around 30 people and we were growing really fast.
00:36:25.297 --> 00:36:27.097
The company was growing fast.
00:36:27.257 --> 00:36:28.898
Like we are a SaaS company.
00:36:28.898 --> 00:36:30.657
It's a huge market.
00:36:30.677 --> 00:36:32.737
Companies see like big growth.
00:36:32.858 --> 00:36:39.168
Uh, so the team was growing, the company was growing and then the things that needed to be done were also like popping up.
00:36:39.168 --> 00:36:39.978
everywhere.
00:36:39.978 --> 00:36:41.818
So we'll just like jump with these things.
00:36:41.818 --> 00:36:46.621
So after a year, we revamped my role to internal communications manager.
00:36:46.621 --> 00:36:49.242
That was one of our biggest pain points.
00:36:49.481 --> 00:36:55.465
Communication was a mess when you have a remote team, but you don't really have things in place.
00:36:55.885 --> 00:36:58.106
That was a really big pain point.
00:36:58.266 --> 00:37:16.396
Communication is tough on site when we see each other every day, but you know, seven, eight years ago, life before remote working was so accepted, we didn't have a lot of great examples for internal communications practices, remote team building practices.
00:37:16.396 --> 00:37:18.967
Like, how did you navigate that?
00:37:18.967 --> 00:37:20.099
You're just like, this might be fun.
00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:21.351
This might work.
00:37:21.351 --> 00:37:22.842
is so true.
00:37:22.842 --> 00:37:28.684
It is both a bit scary and really exciting because there is no blueprint.
00:37:28.684 --> 00:37:31.146
There is no recipe.
00:37:31.146 --> 00:37:38.009
there is no some companies, some of course there are companies who've been remote before us and who know how to do it.
00:37:38.009 --> 00:37:44.972
But there is no this like conventional way of doing this because remote and distributed work models are so new.
00:37:44.972 --> 00:37:50.282
So it was a lot of improv and a lot of figuring things out.
00:37:50.282 --> 00:37:55.563
As you go, for me, to be honest, amazing and exciting.
00:37:55.563 --> 00:37:57.864
And this is how I did all my roles.
00:37:58.344 --> 00:38:10.297
I relied a lot on external knowledge and like connecting with other people, other professionals from other companies that are similar to us and just like trying to figure out how they're doing it over there.
00:38:10.297 --> 00:38:20.226
And that will be my like tip number one to anybody who starts in their careers, find your communities, find the people you can connect with, find the people you can look up to, find the people.
00:38:20.226 --> 00:38:22.007
that can inspire you.
00:38:22.507 --> 00:38:30.476
I cannot stress this enough, like don't get stuck in your own bubble, really connect with others and find your tribe.
00:38:30.476 --> 00:38:37.641
For me, that was one of the most important and most valuable things as I was improving things at toggle.
00:38:38.059 --> 00:38:40.900
somebody would have told me that earlier in my career.
00:38:40.900 --> 00:38:43.690
Everyone was always like, network, go network.
00:38:43.690 --> 00:38:47.992
And I was like, go show up to events and be like, hi, I'm Kim.
00:38:47.992 --> 00:38:49.722
That sounds horrific.
00:38:49.922 --> 00:38:59.925
But how you framed it, finding your community, finding people who you can look up to, who are maybe doing what you're doing, go say hi.
00:38:59.925 --> 00:39:01.739
Just go say hello.
00:39:01.739 --> 00:39:08.056
It is insane how many strangers want to help you within your broader community.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:10.530
not agree more.
00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:13.951
And I'm so thankful of like, and everybody I met on this journey.
00:39:13.951 --> 00:39:20.172
And some of the greatest thing I did at toggle were actually with a help for people from different companies.
00:39:20.172 --> 00:39:22.804
For example, I was internal communications manager.
00:39:22.804 --> 00:39:32.476
So I was like setting up our documentation, communication practices, synchronous versus asynchronous, how do we tell we do meetings, yada, yada, yada.
00:39:32.476 --> 00:39:37.597
And then at some point we actually were about to reorganize the whole company.
00:39:37.597 --> 00:39:45.251
So we did the whole company restructuring and we had to figure out the best way to structure our product and engineering teams.
00:39:45.431 --> 00:39:55.875
And I remember back then I was actually going and knocking on doors of people that from the companies I admire like Todoist, Buffer, Spotify, Google.
00:39:55.875 --> 00:40:00.637
I found people from these companies from HR teams and I was like, could you please help me?
00:40:00.637 --> 00:40:02.686
Like I have no idea how to do this.
00:40:02.686 --> 00:40:05.057
Could you please tell me how you're doing it?
00:40:05.057 --> 00:40:06.467
People were so generous.
00:40:06.467 --> 00:40:09.429
Literally everybody I approached were like, okay, sure.
00:40:09.429 --> 00:40:10.289
Let's jump on a call.
00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:12.179
I will tell you how we do it over here.
00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:16.201
It ended up being this like huge couple of months of research.
00:40:16.242 --> 00:40:24.664
And they found like out of all of the things that I, that they heard, I actually made the model that up until nowadays work at toggle.
00:40:24.664 --> 00:40:25.385
It's amazing.
00:40:25.385 --> 00:40:26.864
And our product team is still structured.
00:40:26.864 --> 00:40:28.784
They're still structured like that.
00:40:28.846 --> 00:40:30.155
So I did.
00:40:31.606 --> 00:40:32.788
I mean, that's years.
00:40:32.788 --> 00:40:33.648
Look, okay.
00:40:33.648 --> 00:40:42.391
Shout out HR people who take two months of prep work to build something that can last for six years or so.
00:40:42.391 --> 00:40:43.851
We are so fast.
00:40:43.851 --> 00:40:44.581
Okay, let me get it done.
00:40:44.581 --> 00:40:45.280
Let me get it out.
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:46.592
Let me build for today.
00:40:46.592 --> 00:40:55.655
But, friends, we got to build for tomorrow too, because I bet this has been way less stressful than having to repeat that every couple of years.
00:40:56.010 --> 00:40:56.889
absolutely.
00:40:56.889 --> 00:41:00.570
And I'm so lucky that Agul is environment where you can actually do it.
00:41:00.570 --> 00:41:03.449
We are for these like big things and big decisions.
00:41:03.550 --> 00:41:06.110
We take the time to actually make a proper decision.
00:41:06.110 --> 00:41:08.510
It also helped me bring the team on board.
00:41:08.570 --> 00:41:13.829
We restructured the whole company, all levels, all roles, all teams.
00:41:13.829 --> 00:41:15.590
We had zero people leaving.
00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:18.230
We had 100 % retention rate.
00:41:19.094 --> 00:41:20.617
You deserve a gold star.
00:41:20.617 --> 00:41:24.023
There needs to be like an award ceremony for this.
00:41:24.023 --> 00:41:27.039
Forget like the Emmys or the Oscars.
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:29.670
We need like a people opsers.
00:41:29.670 --> 00:41:41.574
Thank you! We should make that! That's actually a really good idea! All right, we're gonna do, keep an eye out for annual HR awards, annual people, peopleopsies.
00:41:41.574 --> 00:41:42.233
Love it.
00:41:42.233 --> 00:41:43.394
Love it.
00:41:44.135 --> 00:41:45.375
I was so proud of that.
00:41:45.375 --> 00:41:46.505
It meant so much to me.
00:41:46.505 --> 00:41:55.688
I'm like, but I had proper time to actually do the proper change management process to explain to people what we are doing to actually involve our whole team.
00:41:55.688 --> 00:41:56.637
The team wasn't that big.
00:41:56.637 --> 00:41:59.438
It was around, I think 70, 80 people.
00:42:00.398 --> 00:42:08.072
but still, still, yeah, I had time to talk to all of them, to listen where everybody wants to be, where they see themselves, to make compromises with them.
00:42:08.072 --> 00:42:15.438
So in the end, we ended up with like a really good structure where everybody knows why they're there and why we did it in the way we did it.
00:42:16.242 --> 00:42:17.556
That was amazing.
00:42:17.768 --> 00:42:29.976
feel like just for context, when I've done a big reorganizational change, 10 % to 30 % of folks leaving within three months is not uncommon.
00:42:29.976 --> 00:42:32.898
Like they didn't get the right compromises.
00:42:32.898 --> 00:42:39.804
They didn't find themselves in the right role because the time wasn't taken to learn all of that before making the decisions.
00:42:39.804 --> 00:42:44.606
Like what a gorgeous investment from not only you, but the leadership team at Toggle.
00:42:45.038 --> 00:42:45.557
Thank you.
00:42:45.557 --> 00:42:46.679
Thank you so much.
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:54.844
That was one of the biggest projects that I did back then and one of the ones that I'm the proudest about.
00:42:54.844 --> 00:43:00.106
But yeah, it also tells about how supportive people from the outside can be.
00:43:00.106 --> 00:43:01.347
And you need this context.
00:43:01.347 --> 00:43:06.389
You can't make a good decision and good research just by reading blogs and reading books.
00:43:06.389 --> 00:43:07.650
It's not the same.
00:43:07.650 --> 00:43:13.503
Like you will never read in a book something that's from the real person from a real other place will tell you.
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:20.072
So that's one of the huge tips that I would also give to anybody doing something for the first time.
00:43:20.072 --> 00:43:22.733
Go and talk with other people who already done it.
00:43:23.153 --> 00:43:32.657
You don't have to do it the same way, but it can be even a minor thing that somebody will tell you, will spark your imagination in a way you can't even imagine.
00:43:32.657 --> 00:43:34.518
So talk with people.
00:43:34.626 --> 00:43:42.311
Whenever I'm doing that, I pretend I'm a penguin trying to build a nest and I want to go around to all the other penguins and like check out their rocks.
00:43:42.311 --> 00:43:45.742
And like, do you have a rock I can take and put it in my nest?
00:43:45.742 --> 00:43:49.695
Like, I really do believe we all do things a little bit differently.
00:43:49.695 --> 00:43:57.929
And the only way we're going to do our thing the best is by learning and getting tools and ideas and little golden nuggets from other people.
00:43:57.963 --> 00:43:59.114
I love that.
00:43:59.114 --> 00:44:01.036
I love that metaphor.
00:44:01.889 --> 00:44:04.976
Mostly me waddling around like a penguin with a rock in my mouth.
00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:06.306
So cute.
00:44:06.311 --> 00:44:07.489
So cute.
00:44:08.175 --> 00:44:13.394
Well, first off, pop quiz, can you name all of your titles at toggle?
00:44:13.394 --> 00:44:15.369
Because you have second, third, fourth, and fifth role.
00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:16.641
Do you remember them all?
00:44:16.673 --> 00:44:17.855
I probably can.
00:44:17.855 --> 00:44:25.623
Team building manager, internal communications manager, organizational development manager, people and culture manager, and head of people.
00:44:25.623 --> 00:44:27.597
That's That's five.
00:44:27.737 --> 00:44:32.838
And during all of that, you went back to school agai- I did.
00:44:34.539 --> 00:44:35.721
I did.
00:44:35.900 --> 00:44:37.922
It was, I can't say what it was.
00:44:37.922 --> 00:44:43.268
It's all blurry, but at some point I was like, okay, now it's time to do master's degree.
00:44:43.268 --> 00:44:49.512
As I said, arts have always been like near somewhere in some shape or form.
00:44:49.512 --> 00:44:56.297
And so I decided to do the MA in now bear with me, transdisciplinary humanities and theory of art.
00:44:57.389 --> 00:45:05.960
your background maybe not current role but I do see I see the Venn diagram overlaps How was that master?
00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:07.338
a lot of things.
00:45:07.833 --> 00:45:12.818
doing a master's degree while learning all of these new roles.
00:45:14.914 --> 00:45:22.572
that was actually pretty exciting because I was doing two things that I really, really loved and enjoyed on the one side.
00:45:22.572 --> 00:45:24.523
had toggle where I loved her.
00:45:24.523 --> 00:45:35.172
I still love working with great team, great supportive boss, like the right environment where you can do other things and not just be stuck in work.
00:45:35.452 --> 00:45:42.219
And especially I would say PTSD from previous NGO life for me, it was mind blowing that I can, I can have life.
00:45:42.219 --> 00:45:44.650
I can breathe, I can do other things.
00:45:45.710 --> 00:45:49.391
So I decided to go to college again.
00:45:49.572 --> 00:45:54.750
And then it was really different experience as well, because this time I wasn't doing a degree for career.
00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:57.170
I wasn't doing a degree to earn money.
00:45:57.170 --> 00:46:01.175
I was doing this degree just because I truly, truly love it.
00:46:01.356 --> 00:46:03.833
Again, it was in a small group of students.
00:46:03.833 --> 00:46:06.797
There was a lot of one-on-one work with professors.
00:46:06.849 --> 00:46:10.141
So I truly enjoyed it and truly loved every second of it.
00:46:10.141 --> 00:46:15.398
I was focusing on the avant-garde art from the beginning of the 20th century.
00:46:15.398 --> 00:46:21.382
So that was my topic throughout the year and I did the finished ending paper on it.
00:46:22.425 --> 00:46:23.485
That was lovely.
00:46:23.485 --> 00:46:25.297
It wasn't difficult to balance at all.
00:46:25.297 --> 00:46:28.250
It was just enjoyment all over.
00:46:28.289 --> 00:46:32.824
Yeah, like kind of soul-filling and it's hard to get, you know, too burnt out.
00:46:32.824 --> 00:46:36.527
You can, but when it's soul-filling work, you're normally excited to do it.
00:46:37.710 --> 00:46:45.139
I can see how that degree definitely melds into your community work that you do with the arts and all of that.
00:46:45.139 --> 00:46:48.652
Do you find it influencing some of your HR work too?
00:46:49.518 --> 00:46:54.902
Very good question, which I never thought about, so I don't have an idea what an answer could be.
00:46:56.684 --> 00:46:58.335
I would have to think about it.
00:46:58.335 --> 00:47:00.106
I mean, probably yes.
00:47:00.648 --> 00:47:07.702
I just, I couldn't, I couldn't make like a clear parallel right away in which ways it is.
00:47:07.702 --> 00:47:11.858
we do our awards ceremony, we'll call him Avant Garde HR.
00:47:12.855 --> 00:47:16.161
Avant Garde, Garter, I don't know, we'll figure it out.
00:47:17.422 --> 00:47:23.275
Sold Kim, sold! Perfect, perfect, coming to a country near you soon.
00:47:25.335 --> 00:47:29.215
And, oh, I don't want to miss this little heart before we get into what next?
00:47:29.215 --> 00:47:33.094
You mentioned it at the top, you met someone and got married.
00:47:33.454 --> 00:47:37.034
it happened during COVID, COVID relationship.
00:47:37.034 --> 00:47:38.813
That's how it started.
00:47:39.213 --> 00:47:42.114
It was COVID times, travel restrictions.
00:47:42.114 --> 00:47:44.514
I was stuck in my hometown once again.
00:47:44.514 --> 00:47:47.813
And this is when me and my current husband met.
00:47:48.134 --> 00:47:52.353
He was also in a different part of the world and came home because of COVID.
00:47:52.353 --> 00:47:53.934
So we met and the rest is history.
00:47:53.934 --> 00:47:57.173
We got married last year, 2023.
00:47:58.733 --> 00:48:02.173
And that's it, enjoying the married life.
00:48:03.077 --> 00:48:10.371
little pandemic bringing some folks together while they only took, you know, a global health emergency for you to meet your husband.
00:48:11.293 --> 00:48:13.574
The world works in mysterious ways.
00:48:14.114 --> 00:48:15.068
It does.
00:48:15.387 --> 00:48:20.554
Well, what's, first off, do we miss anything in your journey that we need to touch on?
00:48:20.554 --> 00:48:23.847
is a huge, I mean, Toggle is a really long, huge journey.
00:48:23.847 --> 00:48:25.188
I it's eight years long.
00:48:25.188 --> 00:48:28.199
So there's been a lot of milestones and a lot of points.
00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.501
So I was going from role to role.
00:48:32.083 --> 00:48:36.965
This current one, I stepped into two years ago, head of people.
00:48:36.965 --> 00:48:44.110
So right now, like I have a team of five, six of us dealing with like different topics at Toggle.
00:48:44.110 --> 00:48:49.070
And in the last two years, I've been, mean, last eight years.
00:48:49.070 --> 00:48:51.409
toggle has been shaping me and I be shaping toggle.
00:48:51.409 --> 00:48:56.309
So I see it as this like love story of like shaping each other.
00:48:56.429 --> 00:49:05.449
Um, and I'm so proud to say that this company they joined, which I had this like crazy love for, which I thought is the best place in the world.
00:49:05.449 --> 00:49:09.050
get to say like eight years after that, I still think is the best place in the world.
00:49:09.050 --> 00:49:12.650
I truly see it as this, like the world is fucked up.
00:49:12.650 --> 00:49:13.170
Let's be honest.
00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:14.849
The world is crazy.
00:49:14.849 --> 00:49:29.907
When we look around, when I hear people, I hear my friends, when I hear about companies they work at, you have like micromanagement, you have burnout, you have overworked people, you have monitoring and surveillance.
00:49:29.907 --> 00:49:36.561
Just recently, we actually, I don't know if you saw on LinkedIn, but we did this like creativity index report and toggle.
00:49:36.842 --> 00:49:37.652
Yeah.
00:49:37.737 --> 00:49:41.318
It was exciting research, but the results are so devastating.
00:49:41.318 --> 00:49:51.570
Like you can see that like the majority of leadership and like C level people, they believe it's okay to like monitor their employees and like they want tools for surveillance.
00:49:52.251 --> 00:49:53.342
It's so scary.
00:49:53.342 --> 00:49:55.293
Like the world is truly.
00:49:57.045 --> 00:49:59.827
It's a mess.
00:49:59.827 --> 00:50:23.893
having being part of toggle, I can see, I see them like kind of small oasis, like a small oasis for these 150 people who work there to do something differently, to like have a healthy professional lives, which also give you a healthy personal lives and to do some good work and decent work, but be treated like a human being and not a number.
00:50:24.570 --> 00:50:30.516
Goodness, I feel like first going back to what you said, you get to shape the company and the company shapes you.
00:50:30.516 --> 00:50:39.382
I genuinely think that reignited sparks for my People Ops career that had been hidden for a while because that's so true.
00:50:39.583 --> 00:50:49.932
we have the privilege as People Ops leaders to help shape a culture, to help craft perks and rewards and benefits and experiences.
00:50:49.932 --> 00:50:52.514
And also if we're listening.
00:50:52.514 --> 00:50:53.916
It's shaping us too.
00:50:53.916 --> 00:51:01.318
And I just wanted to double down on that comment because it struck my heart in the best way.
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:10.862
And when you think about that, you are making the world a better place for 150 togglers?
00:51:11.583 --> 00:51:12.684
Okay, great.
00:51:12.684 --> 00:51:14.083
150 togglers.
00:51:14.724 --> 00:51:21.081
And if another head of people can make the world great for another 150 people, there's 300 people.
00:51:21.262 --> 00:51:30.422
Okay, cool, like I really do believe that our profession has the opportunity to change the world and maybe that's a big bite to chew, but I'm in.
00:51:30.422 --> 00:51:32.206
No, me too.
00:51:32.992 --> 00:51:34.032
Me too.
00:51:34.231 --> 00:51:40.036
what's next as you look to the future and so much opportunity to fix things?
00:51:40.478 --> 00:51:42.639
What are you, what's next for you?
00:51:42.925 --> 00:51:45.146
To be honest, I have no idea.
00:51:45.146 --> 00:51:50.626
For now, for being, I'm here, I'm at Toggle.
00:51:50.626 --> 00:51:57.806
Only recently, actually, a couple of months back, I started being more vocal publicly about the way we do things at Toggle.
00:51:57.806 --> 00:52:04.626
Before that, wasn't really, I was learning from others, but I wasn't actually exposing our ways to the world.
00:52:04.626 --> 00:52:08.965
So I started being more active on LinkedIn, started writing there, started connecting with people more.
00:52:08.965 --> 00:52:10.385
It's been truly exciting.
00:52:10.385 --> 00:52:11.862
So I want to continue doing that.
00:52:11.862 --> 00:52:17.668
I want to continue screaming louder to the world, like, hey, there is a different way to do things.
00:52:17.668 --> 00:52:25.614
Like, hey, we can all run profitable businesses, but being healthy and having fulfilled lives.
00:52:25.996 --> 00:52:27.876
I want to show people that it's possible.
00:52:27.876 --> 00:52:32.402
And I still see that as my mission for the next probably couple of years.
00:52:32.402 --> 00:52:37.326
So yeah, I'm here, staying where I am, and I will see.
00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:42.860
Well, I'm gonna link your LinkedIn down at the bottom for our listeners, but where else can people find you?
00:52:43.565 --> 00:52:45.407
Lingue would be the best place.
00:52:45.407 --> 00:52:51.672
Another two places actually where I'm very, really often is the two, favorite communities.
00:52:51.672 --> 00:52:55.195
One is running remote and another one is open org.
00:52:55.456 --> 00:52:57.097
I love both of them.
00:52:57.097 --> 00:53:02.682
So, and a really warm recommendation to people, helps people to join any of these communities.
00:53:02.682 --> 00:53:04.864
Shout out to the open org community.
00:53:04.864 --> 00:53:06.724
Shout out to Running Remote.
00:53:06.724 --> 00:53:10.686
I'll go ahead and throw links for those too, because I have been so fortunate.
00:53:10.686 --> 00:53:13.467
I'm not active in those communities, but I've met folks.
00:53:13.467 --> 00:53:17.690
I've stolen some of their open source resources.
00:53:17.690 --> 00:53:18.849
Truly amazing.
00:53:18.849 --> 00:53:27.255
And I love this shift in our career field of like open source sharing, give, take, and make better.
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:29.371
That's how I found you.
00:53:29.371 --> 00:53:30.583
I found your Lego blocks.
00:53:30.583 --> 00:53:31.693
I in love with them.
00:53:31.693 --> 00:53:32.605
was like...
00:53:34.146 --> 00:53:37.237
Yeah, I'll link my Lego blocks down below too.
00:53:37.237 --> 00:53:39.253
link them, people should check it out.
00:53:39.704 --> 00:53:43.911
If you're an HR person looking for some docs with my weird language.
00:53:44.664 --> 00:53:46.516
Check it out, they're amazing.
00:53:46.657 --> 00:53:49.871
my gosh, Diana, this was phenomenal.
00:53:49.871 --> 00:53:52.025
Thank you so much for joining.
00:53:52.025 --> 00:53:55.929
Thank you for being our first non-US guest.
00:53:55.929 --> 00:53:57.983
That is a delight for me.
00:53:57.983 --> 00:54:00.846
I appreciate you making time zones work.
00:54:00.847 --> 00:54:04.570
Anything we missed or anything else you want to tell the world.
00:54:05.134 --> 00:54:05.775
think that's it.
00:54:05.775 --> 00:54:08.079
I blabbered enough for almost an hour.
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:09.922
So thanks so much for having me, Kim.
00:54:09.922 --> 00:54:12.436
It's been a true, true, true pleasure.
00:54:12.603 --> 00:54:15.697
Thank you and we'll see everyone next time.