Winning the Cyber War - Jennifer Ewbank

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If you think your job is tough, imagine having the job of transforming CIA for the digital era while we are facing unprecedented threats.
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We are delighted today to be talking with Jennifer Eubank.
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Jennifer is the director of Digital Innovation at CIA.
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Jennifer's job is to transition CAA into the modern era, the digital era.
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Jennifer comes at it from the point of view that it's not just the technology.
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This is somebody that has served four years overseas and past experiences as a chief of station.
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Jennifer knows how to run operations.
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She knows how to integrate the best talent, how to partner with the best firms.
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She knows how to make things happen.
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And she'll tell you that if you're going to make things happen, you've got to move at the speed of mission.
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A lot to get at today in looking at what the CIA is doing to keep us safe and transform enormous amounts of data that may have threats buried into it, into actionable intelligence and insight.
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There's real drama and there's fake drama.
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A lot of what happens in Washington is pretty much fake manufactured drama.
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Again, I don't mean to minimize it, but when somebody approaches me, you know, breathless with some urgent challenge, I have to admit, I often ask two questions.
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Is anyone dead and is anyone in jail?
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And the answers are No.
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I say, okay, just pause for a moment.
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Let's talk. Government.
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Different ideas from the outside applied to government to drive change.
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So, Jennifer, it is great to talk with you again today.
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Yeah, it's wonderful to talk to you, Eric.
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And I see it looks like you're in your home office there, which looks very cool.
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I see a lot of books behind you.
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My question is, have you read all those books?
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Maybe not all, but certainly somebody in the house has read all of them.
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I've read a number.
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But yeah, between us, the kids, my husband and I, we all read.
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Yeah, I get it.
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And I've got a lot of books where I've read a lot of parts of them, but I have a lot of books, of course, that I go back to again and again.
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So yeah, but it's very cool.
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I have my I call it my forgive me, I call it my stack of shame.
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It's my stack on my nightstand that's always very high.
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And I work through several books at a time.
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Yeah.
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You know, it's so great to talk with you today.
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And when I think about your work at CIA and as a director of digital innovation, you know, a lot of people think of warfare and they think of kinetics and they think of boats and ships and all of these different things.
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Yet I would love to get your perspective on how the national security landscape has really changed.
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Well, you know, it's a it's a good question, Eric, and probably a great place to start because there are directed and digital innovation is really a reflection of how this landscape has evolved in recent years. And since we have a little time, maybe I'll go back and share just a little context.
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So I, I joined the government in the eighties.
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Right.
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And I was I was convinced and yes, I'm that old.
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I was convinced that my mission was to help fight international communism.
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And it it sounds almost quaint all these many years later.
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But but that's you know, that's what I felt.
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That's what I wanted to do.
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And and the world has, as you've suggested, changed dramatically, drastically in these intervening decades, some ways very obvious, in some ways, much more much more subtle.
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And I think back to those early days and kind of heady days.
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Right.
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And there was 1990s, the collapse of the Soviet Union.
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The Iron Curtain came down.
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We all talked about the peace and know.
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Put pretty bluntly, the peace dividend turned out to be an illusion. Yes.
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And then we had this this moment of great enthusiasm and optimism where we thought that, you know, economic liberalization would transform authoritarian regimes around the world and somehow, I don't know, create Jeffersonian democracies or something.
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And and that was an illusion and certainly pursued with the best of intentions.
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But it didn't work out the way we thought.
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And and for us, when we talk about the national security landscape in the intelligence community, it's really through a pre and post 911 frame because that was the defining moment of fighting moment for our country and certainly for the intelligence community.
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And so this has been the thing that we've been focused on so intensely now for for 21 years.
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And and I would just say that, you know, the absence of a major international terrorist attack on the homeland and all these years, I think is speaks very well of the intelligence community, our military partners, our partners across government, all those who worked very, very hard to support these threats.
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And and one thing that we learned coming out of 911 was the necessity of having much more integrated intelligence community, better information sharing, better cooperation.
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And and we really have achieved that, in my opinion.
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And along the way, we've been criticized a little bit here and there for being maybe too tactical and focused.
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I'm not sure that I agree with that.
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But if we are or have been tactical along the way, it's been the nature of the mission. Right.
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Find the terrorists, stop the attacks. Yes.
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And and so while we're focused on all that and coming back to the main point here, while we're focused on all of that, you know, China and Russia have been focused on us.
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Mm hmm.
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And so, you know, an unfair question could be, you know, did we somehow miss this?
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Where we distracted, we missed this incredible transformation in our national security environment, which is the rise of the People's Republic of China, kind of a new sort of adversary with global aspirations and and the resources to potentially achieve those.
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And so, yeah, and I would say we didn't miss it, but we have pulled in so many different directions all these years, and that's been a real challenge.
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Well, you know, if I could jump in just for a second, Jennifer, the dynamic aspect of your job and so often you and your teams and the agency do things incredibly well, yet that doesn't make the press right.
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And I think no people.
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Would feel that not. Right.
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And I think people secret I think people would be blown away by the pace of threats and the amount of work.
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And the patriots that I remember when I worked there and friends today that their lives are dedicated to this mission.
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Right.
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And so even as I and I. Sorry interrupt.
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I know you're talking about how some of that is changing, but the dedication to it and the amount of work, it's mind blowing.
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And I remember back when I was in the agency 20 years ago, it was mind blowing.
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Eric, I appreciate that.
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It's very generous of you to highlight that.
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For for our listeners, it's it's a mission.
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It's a calling.
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Many of us, most of us feel very passionately about about serving.
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And so the absence of bad things is often a reflection of a lot of hard work that has been going on in the background.
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And, you know, we don't hire people who need public affirmation.
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We don't want tickertape parades or any of that sort of thing.
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We want to work quietly in the background and do our part.
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And so I do appreciate you pointing out, Eric, as you did so from talking.
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Just go back a little bit on how the national security landscape has changed and the People's Republic of China.
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And add a little disclaimer here.
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When I talk about that, what I'm talking about is the Central Committee and the Communist Party of China and their rule over the country, not the Chinese people, not by law.
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Correct.
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We're talking about a communist regime, an authoritarian regime overseeing this this massive country.
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And so China today presents our most important geopolitical threat for the 21st century.
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And I think I can say that unequivocally.
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And unlike the Soviet Union in the 1980s, when I joined right, I joined with this youthful optimism and passion that I was going to crush Soviet communism.
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And but unlike the 1980s, China is effectively competing across every domain.
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So think military, economic, diplomatic, technological, cultural, you name it.
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And I just got a program to compete and that makes it a very, very different adversary or our competitor out there.
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Right.
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And and concurrent with this rise, I think this is really critical when you talk about the national security landscape.
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It's not just not just the who are the which country.
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Right.
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But concurrent with this rise has been a dramatic shift in the landscape, the dramatic shift in the national security landscape with the rapid development of technology and technology is kind of that it's that intersection now, that technological change primarily, but not exclusively in the digital domain, where where my organization works, really, that has made a huge impact on the national security landscape.
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So think of cyber intrusions, attacks, artificial intelligence, data science, you know, high powered computing, a lot of other stuff out there that are interesting in and of themselves but also are powering amazing transformations elsewhere to include among all these various domains within the People's Republic of China.
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And where this is different, again, if I kind of compare that that moment when I joined the US government and when and now here we are.
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Technology, probably more so than ever, is both a strength and a potential vulnerability, right?
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Everything is connected.
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Every ones and zeros do not know international borders.
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And so in a way, we will benefit tremendously from all of these new technologies.
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But we're also more exposed and potentially more vulnerable than we've ever been.
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And I think that speaks to a need on behalf of the nation, right?
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US, our friends, our families, to lift our own digital acumen, our own savvy about how digital technologies can and are being used against us by some of our very aggressive adversaries out there.
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Let's say back when you and I were younger and back then it was tanks on the border, it was Javelin missiles, it was surface to air tangible things.
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Right.
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Whereas when we're talking about China or mercenary groups, a lot of times as citizens, we don't even recognize what's going on because it's somewhat invisible.
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Right.
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So it's interesting to me as you're talking about that changing landscape and in some ways you could really sound the alarm.
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You know, when something kinetic happens when 911 happens.
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Right. Wow, that's a big moment.
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Yet this is tricky, huh?
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This is different.
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A lot of it is unseen.
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You're absolutely right.
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And and there's there's talk from time to time about, you know, when will there be a cyber 911.
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You'll have already experienced it.
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And those are kind of interesting debates that I think are best handled perhaps over cocktails with friends.
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But, you know, the reality is, as you've said, you know, we've gone from this world of tangible, visible threat to very serious, but often invisible and clandestine threats.
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But even in in the more visible world, just think about the last few months for talking about the national security landscape. And, you know, Russia has launched an unprovoked an illegal war in Ukraine on peaceful neighbor.
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Tensions are probably higher.
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They are higher than any time that I can remember across the Taiwan Strait.
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I think about North Korea.
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So they've declared that they will use a nuclear deterrent when and if they have to deploy military against a threat.
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And and Iran, which is in the news from time to time, you know, if you believe the press reports, the nuclear breakout timeline for Iran now is effectively zero.
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It's it's effectively zero.
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And we have no regional conflicts continuing to kind of erupt all around the globe.
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And if we look back not that long ago to the successful strike on Al Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, that's a reminder that terrorists are out there still plotting, plotting to attack America.
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Our allies and our interests.
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And so I say all that because I started with this comment about how the People's Republic of China is this this this transformational challenge for us.
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And it is.
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So what does that mean for CIA? Right.
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We're supposed to do all of this somehow. And and it means that we really do have to shift our focus, refine our strategy a bit to actually focus more on the major transfer, the thing that will shape the arc of history, which is the development of these new capabilities and this new strategy and this leadership in the People's Republic of China.
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But we have to the way to do that while we still have our eye on the terrorist threat, because the terrorists are not going away.
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Right.
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You know, they're on the battlefield and, you know, they get a vote.
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So we can't simply walk away and say, okay, success, we're done.
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We have to find a new way of managing that threat.
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So a question on that, Jennifer, is the you have this incredibly fascinating yet what I would say wildly difficult job as the director of digital innovation to say how do we transform just based on how ably you've discussed existing threats, peer threats, conventional warfare, terrorism, cyber, it's all there.
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And the pace is so incredibly exponential.
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So how are you and your teams at the CIA really transforming to meet that threat?
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And it's fascinating.
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But I got to tell you, in some ways, I wouldn't be eager to be in your shoes.
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This is a very tough challenge.
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You know, it is.
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But but, you know, we are an organization that adapts.
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Right.
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It's the nature of our work. Right.
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If if you don't adapt, you fail.
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If you fail, you're out of business.
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And so I'm glad to say we're celebrating our 75th anniversary this month.
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And and I say that because it has been that we have had a process of continual adaptation and change since the very beginning.
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And so we are nothing like what we were 75 years ago.
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And so there have been some key moments in that transformation as we think about how the world is changing, specifically the digital landscape.
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So if you go back to 2015, not that long ago now seven years so we had a study and not all studies result in insight and amazing successful change.
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But this one actually worked and this study recognized that the digital landscape was really changing everything, right?
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We need to adapt to both leverages these new capabilities for our mission and protect the agency against those new capabilities being wielded against us.
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And that happened against this backdrop of what we what we saw to be the increasingly complex, challenging nature of just doing our more traditional work to our we at our core, we are a human intelligence service and espionage service, and that is recruiting and running sources around the world to give us secret information about the plans and intentions of our adversaries.
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And that work is tremendously challenging.
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Added on top of that, we've conducted technical collection of various kinds all around the world for decades, and that's very challenging too.
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But we recognize that in order to meet all these challenges, we needed to bring these new digital capabilities in in a more systematic, thoughtful, integrated fashion to help unlock success more broadly.
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And so we did create this directorate, the Directorate of Digital Innovation, that I now have the pleasure and the honor of leading.
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And for for our listeners, I'll just briefly outline this organization mission oversees information technology.
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So kind of the foundations data data policy data strategy, data science, artificial intelligence, machine learning, cyber collection, cyber defense and open source collection.
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And so you might ask, well, what do those things have in common?
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Right.
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And what they do really have in common are two things.
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Primarily, this is the world of ones and zeros.
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And and they all rely on kind of vast computing power and the ability to to leverage data.
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And so we brought all those together in attempt to kind of re-engineer, recalibrate, maybe how the organization works and make sure that we're integrating all these capabilities across all of our various missions.
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And then the last thing I'll mention before moving on is that we also have a really important responsibility to help the organization as a whole lift their lift our digital acumen, as we like to say.
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And and that doesn't mean that everyone in the CIA is going to go through a course to learn how to code Python and write algorithms.
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It doesn't mean that at all.
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I mean, I'm I'm a child of the analog era.
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Trust me.
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I'm not going to be setting Python any differently to you.
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But I did.
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Yeah, but.
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But we do need to understand how it all works.
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What does it do?
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How does it how do we accomplishes things?
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How do we leverage these new technologies in a responsible way?
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We have to be able to do that.
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And so we have a university, our university at our schoolhouse, as we call it, that provides training and education in sort of a hybrid model, leveraging the best practices of industry.
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And we do that for officers at any level of technical proficiency.
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So from those really don't even know why I just mentioned ones and zeros to those who have come out of universities with PhDs in artificial intelligence and such.
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And we do that whole range.
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You know, and the last.
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I'm sorry.
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Go ahead, Jennifer. If I do the lab, because it's a very important one, but I'll be very quick is that partnerships with industry are another piece of how we how we adapt and change.
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And and we've been working with industry for over four decades.
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But but still, we recognize that this challenging mission, this new digital landscape, all of these various threats and challenges that are coming our way, they all mean that we need to find a better way to work with the private sector.
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And so that is an area of real intense focus for us as well.
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You know, when you're when you were talking, it strikes me that if you're the CIA and we're talking about data and analysis and artificial intelligence, I mean, you're talking about data sets that that my mind cannot comprehend.
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You're talking about global data sets, right.
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And I was thinking about the tradecraft and the way of doing business that exists.
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And this notion of helping people to improve their digital literacy or their digital IQ.
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And I was wondering before we jump to the next question real quickly, which is what's it like when you have a grizzled veteran?
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Maybe she has operated in hotspots across the world and she's been operating for decades, and then it's all okay now you need to do all of this digital stuff.
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What can that response be like?
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Yeah, that's really interesting question.
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And it has made for some some amusing discussions in our organization.
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So I, you know, I have a lot of friends just like you described, grizzled old veterans.
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You know, we sit around in curmudgeonly fashion and talk about the good old days and how things used to be.
00:21:12.932 --> 00:21:22.799
But what's really interesting is that, a, we've we've put in place these these changes, these new capabilities, new strategy, etc..
00:21:23.032 --> 00:21:25.200
So that's one piece.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.932
But B, frankly, the mission is pulling us in organically anymore.
00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:34.000
Like we got to do these things to win.
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:43.299
And so I had a meeting with the person you describe is recently retired, one of the most grizzled old veterans.
00:21:43.299 --> 00:21:58.000
Not all that grizzled veterans, very traditional, has done the hardest jobs in hardest places around the world has has sacrificed extraordinary amounts for for his commitment to America.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:01.432
And that sounds, again, really corny, but people believe that and think that way.
00:22:01.432 --> 00:22:15.032
And and he is one of the most one of the most I don't know, like it like audacious and bold and compelling leaders.
00:22:15.032 --> 00:22:27.665
But with this more traditional mindset and the two of us found ourselves in meetings talking about data environments and data science, and we both stopped at one point, we said, when did this happen?
00:22:27.766 --> 00:22:42.165
Right here to kind of, you know, silverbacks in the organization who are sitting here talking about data science and data environments and new tools and algorithms and wow, you know, how things have changed.
00:22:42.165 --> 00:22:48.333
All the old stuff, we still do, but we need all of this new capability to make it happen.
00:22:48.333 --> 00:23:04.766
And so even those of us who've been around for a little while, either we've studied and we're part of this new organization as I am, or the missions just pulling you in this direction and you realize you have to get the data right if you want to win.
00:23:05.066 --> 00:23:07.432
Interesting. There's just no avoiding it.
00:23:07.432 --> 00:23:08.865
And it makes a lot of sense.
00:23:08.865 --> 00:23:16.232
And, you know, I have listened to some of your talks in the past where you talk about speed of mission.
00:23:16.333 --> 00:23:16.965
Yeah.
00:23:17.432 --> 00:23:20.266
And could you explain to our listeners, please, what you mean by it?
00:23:20.266 --> 00:23:23.400
You're already alluding to some of that, but what do we mean by speed of mission?
00:23:23.965 --> 00:23:33.865
You know, maybe it goes back to something you said earlier, which is, you know, we are we are under some form of attack, although every day you're certainly cyber.
00:23:33.865 --> 00:23:35.700
Right. It's an all day event.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.465
But when you talk about speed, it's interesting, right?
00:23:40.465 --> 00:23:51.099
There's this interesting dynamic because CIA is an organization that was created to to provide strategic insight and strategic avoid strategic surprise.
00:23:51.099 --> 00:24:03.599
And that that, you know, that implies a certain kind of long range frame of reference time, you know, you know, thoughtful consideration, all that stuff, which we do.
00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:09.766
DTI is also supposed to be leveraging the digital landscape, which is transforming dramatically even as we speak.
00:24:09.766 --> 00:24:12.000
And so there's that that speed aspect.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:24.900
And somehow we are we're trying to balance those two things, leverage all this cool stuff today, you know, protect against it being used against us while still focusing on the big strategic questions that matter.
00:24:25.232 --> 00:24:27.865
And so and we're talking about the speed of mission.
00:24:27.865 --> 00:24:30.732
It really just means that we have to outpace our adversaries.
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:37.400
It's we have some really formidable opponents in the digital landscape.
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:40.865
And you could name them off the top of your head, I'm sure.
00:24:41.133 --> 00:24:45.032
And so it's no surprise to to anyone who's listening in.
00:24:46.133 --> 00:24:54.232
So but we really have to be able to understand them, to study their activities, to understand their capabilities and their plans and their intentions.
00:24:55.133 --> 00:25:01.266
And while we're doing that, because obviously we need to understand how they might be using all that against us or our allies.
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:07.000
And while we're doing all that, we have to develop all those capabilities to be used for our mission.
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:09.165
We need to be able to leverage our data.
00:25:09.165 --> 00:25:12.299
We need to be able to maximize the information we get from it.
00:25:12.766 --> 00:25:16.165
And and innovation is really, really critical for us.
00:25:16.165 --> 00:25:25.266
And it's not just a buzz word, although, you know, I've been to plenty of conferences and seminars where, you know, it just it does sound a little bit like a buzz word, but it's a real thing.
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.165
It's a real thing.
00:25:27.165 --> 00:25:36.165
And and, you know, we need this this spirit of kind of creativity and ingenuity and resourcefulness to make it happen.
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.032
And so we do talk a lot about that.
00:25:39.032 --> 00:25:41.099
We recruit great people. We support them.
00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:45.599
We give them the tools and resources they need, and then we unleash them.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:51.000
And that's, you know, a part of kind of staying abreast of all these new developments.
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.500
And, yeah, we have to be able to anticipate.
00:25:55.500 --> 00:26:04.732
Now, I'm not saying we're fortune tellers or I'm the future or something, but but really, we have to know enough about the issues, enough about our adversaries to anticipate where things are going.
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:12.032
We've got amazing analysts, the best in the world, who can help us frame those those ideas and those discussions.
00:26:12.032 --> 00:26:21.032
But what we really want to be able to forecast what's on the horizon and predict know what is that next big threat or opportunity for us.
00:26:21.032 --> 00:26:43.932
And and I mention this because, a, it's an important part of kind of staying abreast of our mission, but B, because just this year, CIA hired its first ever, which surprises people, but our first ever chief technology officer, one of whose responsibilities is that to help us understand what's just over the horizon, out of our field of vision?
00:26:44.066 --> 00:26:51.633
Yeah, because we are very focused on today, we're very focused on tomorrow, but we never really had somebody focused on beyond tomorrow.
00:26:51.865 --> 00:26:54.833
And that's what our new chief technology officer is doing.
00:26:55.365 --> 00:26:58.633
And the last thing I'll mention is, is just agility, right?
00:26:58.633 --> 00:27:05.700
We're pretty adaptable organization and we have to remain flexible and be willing to change things up.
00:27:05.865 --> 00:27:09.932
If it's not if something's not working, if your whole structure doesn't work, we're going to change it.
00:27:09.932 --> 00:27:12.566
If somebody is not doing a good job, we'll get somebody else, right?
00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:20.833
We have to be adaptable. And then we also have to and this is kind of the dry stuff that nobody talks about.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:26.133
But we also have to innovate and be agile in the way we do our own business.
00:27:26.133 --> 00:27:26.900
Yeah.
00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:33.266
So there's all the cool, sexy stuff that people want to talk about and it is really fun and exciting and high impact.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.732
But we also have to think about like, how do we write contracts, how do we buy stuff?
00:27:38.732 --> 00:27:42.299
How do you know a credit for security?
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:44.932
How do we test things to make sure they don't break our systems?
00:27:44.932 --> 00:27:46.566
You all this stuff? Yes.
00:27:46.566 --> 00:27:50.000
And here we are in the digital era.
00:27:50.333 --> 00:27:58.766
And yet we're still following practices that were put in place for the best of reasons, the best of intentions and practices put in place during the hardware era.
00:27:58.965 --> 00:27:59.500
Right.
00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:07.799
And we are we can't move at the speed we need to if we're pulling with us like all this legacy hardware thinking.
00:28:08.133 --> 00:28:12.432
And so I know somehow we're working on that.
00:28:12.432 --> 00:28:19.532
We're working systematically on it, but that that really does have to change if we are going to win and I want to win.
00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.865
So a couple of thoughts and it's so interesting.
00:28:23.865 --> 00:28:29.799
The Cliff and I were at South by Southwest last year and we were interviewing a lot of folks for this show.
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:40.165
And I think on day two, somebody set out it was kind of a comical, yet true article that said innovation has been mentioned 650,000 times already.
00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:53.700
I bet it's such a buzz word, yet I get you take it very seriously as far as how do we create new ideas, new approaches, entrepreneurial approaches, and this notion of speed.
00:28:53.700 --> 00:29:00.766
So with that said, Jennifer, what are the toughest challenges on a daily basis that you face in doing that?
00:29:01.099 --> 00:29:04.865
Because the vision strikes me as spot on yet.
00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:09.099
Wow. I mean, I worked and I'm very proud of my service at the agency.
00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:13.465
And I remember the brilliant people that strong personalities right.
00:29:13.465 --> 00:29:16.400
So what are some.
00:29:13.465 --> 00:29:22.200
Of the things. That really I don't think I ever met anybody that wasn't there at the bridge to this day.
00:29:22.665 --> 00:29:26.766
So what are some of the challenges in really trying to achieve this vision?
00:29:26.766 --> 00:29:27.400
Yeah.
00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:30.432
Well, you know, you talk about challenges, okay.
00:29:30.432 --> 00:29:31.500
We are the CIA.
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:38.099
So mostly the day is all about challenge to just put that aside.
00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:42.732
But if I if I just think about DTI right now, I think about this digital landscape.
00:29:42.766 --> 00:29:48.432
I think we share a challenge that every large organization and every large multinational company has.
00:29:48.432 --> 00:29:56.333
And that is really this explosion in volume and variety of data and all that fueled by technological advancement.
00:29:56.333 --> 00:30:05.266
And and this has really changed the intelligence landscape in much the same way it's changed our global economy and how we do business.
00:30:05.766 --> 00:30:08.400
And so that is that is a challenge.
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:14.665
And so if we're going to collect information, then we darn well better use it, right?
00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:22.500
Do something to take this this what is just data and I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but just data.
00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:24.465
It's not even information.
00:30:24.465 --> 00:30:28.066
And information is not even yet insight like how do we get there?
00:30:28.500 --> 00:30:37.200
And so I think if we talk about briefly about open source, it's a good example because open source intelligence are those in, as we call it, right?
00:30:38.766 --> 00:30:40.732
It is our into first resort, right?
00:30:40.732 --> 00:30:42.633
It's the foundation for everything.
00:30:42.633 --> 00:30:45.599
And it is just so rich with data.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:53.465
I mean, we've seen exponential increases and we've seen figures cited and I'm sure you've heard them to like all the information in the world.
00:30:54.032 --> 00:30:59.633
You know, 90% of all the information ever produced in the world has been produced in the last two years.
00:30:59.633 --> 00:31:05.266
It's unbelievable data, not information, because, again, data is not information, but but stuff.
00:31:05.266 --> 00:31:05.932
Right.
00:31:06.066 --> 00:31:11.799
And so the open source arena is is a great example of like how do you leverage all that?
00:31:12.165 --> 00:31:25.400
And so for us, just because of the sheer volume and because we can't ever we will never have a massive army of people like, you know, tagging data and reviewing it live in real time.
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:27.700
We just will never have that many people. Right.
00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:33.165
But I I'm a visual person, so I think of these graphs and the plotting of the volumes of data, we'll just never have that.
00:31:33.633 --> 00:31:39.232
And so we have to leverage machines and that means artificial intelligence and machine learning in this space.
00:31:40.266 --> 00:31:43.665
And so we really need to accelerate those efforts.
00:31:43.665 --> 00:31:45.932
Now, don't get me wrong, a lot has happened.
00:31:45.932 --> 00:31:48.566
We're doing some really exciting work in this space.
00:31:48.566 --> 00:31:57.333
But but we have to accelerate those efforts because newsflash, our adversaries are and we are not alone in this in this race.
00:31:57.333 --> 00:31:59.833
Right. It is a bit of a race.
00:32:00.266 --> 00:32:03.732
And so our partners in that race are the U.S.
00:32:03.732 --> 00:32:05.266
private sector. And AI.
00:32:05.266 --> 00:32:18.299
That's a little different than, say, the fifties and sixties in the seventies, when a lot of new technology was being developed by the defense industry, by the intelligence industry, and then eventually transitioned to the private sector.
00:32:18.665 --> 00:32:25.032
You know, we're in this really dynamic, fast moving space now where that's hap that's originating in the private sector.
00:32:25.032 --> 00:32:39.099
And so we've got to learn how to be that fast follower and to work with industry really tightly, to leverage the best of American ingenuity to apply to this this data challenge, you know, human machine partnering.
00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:42.333
And so that's that's one of our our challenges.
00:32:42.333 --> 00:32:55.333
And so if I can jump in there for a second, Jennifer, the it's fascinating open source years ago, dare I say, was not held in this same regard and at the same priority level.
00:32:55.333 --> 00:32:56.465
Right. It was.
00:32:56.465 --> 00:32:58.665
Oh yeah, there's open source.
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:09.165
And so I think about all of this information and you're talking about these partnerships from a partnering point of view with industry, with a lot of folks.
00:33:09.165 --> 00:33:21.900
They have views of government where they say while they're not as agile and nimble as they need to be in that partnership, how are you kind of bridging that gap to to really, again, move at the speed of mission?
00:33:23.066 --> 00:33:25.865
Well, you know, it's a it's a good question, right.
00:33:25.865 --> 00:33:28.400
We have our goals.
00:33:25.865 --> 00:33:28.400
I'm not going to say that.
00:33:28.732 --> 00:33:37.099
You know, we've we've we've shared 75 years of bureaucratic process and that now, you know, we are we are flying free and on unencumbered.
00:33:37.099 --> 00:33:37.500
Right.
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.566
But but we really are trying to move more more rapidly.
00:33:41.566 --> 00:33:47.099
And and partly this is a function of those partnerships with with industry, right.
00:33:47.133 --> 00:33:49.566
It's a very different approach of the digital landscape.
00:33:49.865 --> 00:34:01.299
And so that that kind of pulls us along if we're doing our jobs well, which I hope we are and I think we are. And again, I think it's it's mission, right?
00:34:01.665 --> 00:34:03.665
It's changing so rapidly.
00:34:03.665 --> 00:34:08.266
We either change and succeed or we don't change and we fail.
00:34:08.266 --> 00:34:15.833
And so it's a pretty simplistic answer, but I think that's kind of where where we are.
00:34:15.833 --> 00:34:16.300
And you know what?
00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:26.465
I see people in industry that share that to a lot of folks that previously worked with, whether it's CIA or they were Army, Air Force, and they do have that.
00:34:26.465 --> 00:34:32.266
And I think sometimes recognizing that both are trying to get to the same place can be so important.
00:34:32.266 --> 00:34:40.166
But, you know, you talk about and a lot we've been thinking about optimizing the organization for modern and future threats.
00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:49.632
And as you were talking, Jennifer, it kind of made me think there's this famous Drucker quote and some claim it wasn't Drucker's, that it was attributed to another great, brilliant person.
00:34:50.132 --> 00:34:57.766
But that culture eats strategy for breakfast, that, you know, the plans hit this buzzsaw of cultural challenge.
00:34:58.365 --> 00:35:11.032
So I'd love to get your thoughts on what what really is the mindset or the culture that you're looking to develop again to further this mission of moving faster on our data goals, mission goals, really achieving that vision.
00:35:12.065 --> 00:35:22.166
Is a good question. And I think when I came into this job, I probably under estimated the role of culture, right?
00:35:23.132 --> 00:35:26.932
I was very focused on on technological transformation, digital transformation.
00:35:26.932 --> 00:35:32.233
And and as I have met with more leaders in this industry, both in the private sector and across U.S.
00:35:32.233 --> 00:35:39.565
government and in academia, realize that, you know, the technology piece somedays is the easy part and it really is about culture.
00:35:39.565 --> 00:35:47.965
And and so here's an interesting thing that an interesting strength or an advantage that we have in DTI.
00:35:48.032 --> 00:35:55.565
So, you know, we we were just created a few years ago and so we were able to actually choose, right.
00:35:55.865 --> 00:35:57.233
What culture do we want?
00:35:57.233 --> 00:35:58.500
What do we want to emphasize?
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:00.099
What do we want to value?
00:36:00.099 --> 00:36:05.632
Because we brought all these organizations together from disparate parts of this large agency.
00:36:05.632 --> 00:36:12.932
So they were otherwise not directly connected and each came with their own kind of history and legacy and traditions.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:18.132
So we got to consciously choose what do we want to value?
00:36:18.699 --> 00:36:35.365
And and at the heart of your question about culture, and I don't mean to backdrop it, but I do want to recognize that what we've learned is that we can no longer operate efficiently or effectively in a traditional hierarchical structure.
00:36:35.833 --> 00:36:55.833
And because success against any intelligence challenge we face today and I cannot think of one, trust me, I have tried success against and the intelligence challenge we face today this this integration across what could otherwise be vertical silos in the same department you name it. Yes.
00:36:56.699 --> 00:37:03.599
And so again, back to creating our own culture very intentionally, have focused on three, three key things.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:05.099
But then there are a number of core values.
00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:08.800
But integration, innovation and inclusivity.
00:37:09.333 --> 00:37:16.400
And so back to the seven years ago, we created mission centers and and the new directorate.
00:37:16.733 --> 00:37:20.599
Well, the mission centers were created to promote integration.
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:31.400
The Mission Center is where you able to bring capabilities from all across the organization, all across the enterprise, bring them together into an integrated team working against a specific mission challenge.
00:37:31.965 --> 00:37:37.166
So that is something that we had traditionally always done in our field stations around the world, right?
00:37:37.532 --> 00:37:40.932
You if you play an away game, you play as a team or you lose. Yes.
00:37:41.166 --> 00:37:50.099
And so we were able to bring that concept to Washington or to our headquarters area to create mission centers.
00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:55.300
And we created this directorate and this directorate, which I've described in terms of the functions.
00:37:56.266 --> 00:38:08.900
Our mission is really to work at this intersection of traditional human intelligence, technical intelligence, and digital and cyber intelligence, and that requires integration.
00:38:09.266 --> 00:38:15.300
So integration is a guiding principle for us, and it has to drive everything we do because there's nothing we do alone.
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:19.065
It's with others across tokenization and innovation.
00:38:19.065 --> 00:38:19.500
Again.
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:20.965
Yes, we talked about that.
00:38:20.965 --> 00:38:24.932
It's it was buzzwords said, you know, how many thousands of times at South by Southwest.
00:38:24.932 --> 00:38:31.833
But it is a real thing and it has to be a real we have to make it a real thing if it's not.
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:38.233
And so what I would maybe comment on very briefly is a key aspect of this, right?
00:38:38.233 --> 00:38:52.865
You need leaders who are going to lead effectively in that space and just, you know, spout off platitudes about innovation, digital leadership is a little different and it's a little slightly different.
00:38:52.865 --> 00:38:58.666
Or they're skills that supplement what we would consider to be more traditional leadership acumen.
00:38:58.666 --> 00:39:07.699
So in addition to all the normal stuff that we demand in our leaders, right, we demand integrity and good communication and empathy and a strategy and all this kind of stuff.
00:39:07.865 --> 00:39:09.699
We need all that still, right?
00:39:09.699 --> 00:39:26.266
We also need people who are going to, you know, break barriers, challenge assumptions, who are going to have a bias for action because this is a landscape that's moving rapidly and we have to move with it and we have to be willing to take risk.
00:39:26.266 --> 00:39:28.199
And now, okay, it is the CIA.
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:33.166
We're about taking risk, but that's different when you're talking about big technology technology programs.
00:39:33.166 --> 00:39:35.599
We have to take risk.
00:39:33.166 --> 00:39:35.599
We have to experiment.
00:39:35.965 --> 00:39:42.965
And sometimes the hardest thing and this comes with it, we have to accept smart failure along the way.
00:39:43.333 --> 00:39:46.300
We have to accept that we're going to try something, we're going to fail.
00:39:46.432 --> 00:39:48.565
We're going to learn from it, and we're going to move.
00:39:48.565 --> 00:39:54.400
And those are not skills that everyone that everyone has in equal measure.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:40:04.065
So talk about integration and innovation in the lab is in inclusion or inclusivity, but it's really all about those two things, right?
00:40:04.532 --> 00:40:14.565
Our our intelligence problems are so complex today, so, so weighty, so challenging that we really need to bring every possible perspective.
00:40:14.565 --> 00:40:22.500
And and we find that sometimes the the most interesting flashes of insight come from partners with a very different perspective.
00:40:22.833 --> 00:40:29.266
So we need to bring in every perspective to assist in our problem solving.
00:40:29.565 --> 00:40:36.166
I loved where you started there, Jennifer, on this notion of grounded in specific mission challenges.
00:40:36.166 --> 00:40:36.632
Right.
00:40:36.632 --> 00:40:48.865
Because I have seen so many across my years in government, in industry, where we have great ideas, but if they're not applied, if they're not grounded, right.
00:40:48.865 --> 00:40:52.065
There's just no way to actually make progress.
00:40:52.266 --> 00:41:01.233
And so much of what you were talking about, I work with clients daily and I help them on the communication side and the messaging and the storytelling.
00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:06.032
But I'm helping them convert technology and humanize solutions.
00:41:06.032 --> 00:41:10.300
And so much of it, it sounds to me, again, it's that human aspect.
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:15.365
And also I kind of heard an agile, minimal, viable product type mentality.
00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:17.400
Is is that a fair comment on what you were saying?
00:41:17.932 --> 00:41:20.266
Yeah, I think it is, absolutely.
00:41:20.500 --> 00:41:38.699
And so know we we are increasingly working in sort of an unclassified laboratory environment, you know, piloting new capabilities and trying to do that rapidly, trying to apply, you know, a new technology to, let's say, a sanitized mission problem.
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:40.766
Right. Because everything we do is relatively sensitive.
00:41:40.766 --> 00:41:46.300
But trying to do that in an unclassified environment where we can move quickly, decide, does it work?
00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:48.932
Do you have a minimum viable product or not?
00:41:49.166 --> 00:41:55.432
And if we do, then that helps us make much more timely decisions about technology.
00:41:55.666 --> 00:41:57.300
It helps kind of lead the way.
00:41:57.300 --> 00:41:59.865
How do we choose where we're going to invest our time and energy?
00:42:00.166 --> 00:42:05.900
How do we fail smartly in the sense that it's it's smaller, it's rapid.
00:42:05.900 --> 00:42:10.500
We're not extending tons of time, energy and money in order to learn a basic lesson.
00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:12.099
But we are learning that lesson.
00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:17.833
So we are thinking a lot more in trying to do this in the unclassified environment where we have greater agility.
00:42:18.032 --> 00:42:28.900
Yeah, and it's such an interesting problem set of course of the classification, the criticality of it, yet trying to bring in others where appropriate and sanitize.
00:42:29.365 --> 00:42:48.132
Some folks may not know that you worked for years as an operator and I think about it, you made the assertion and I remember back in my days when we called it The Die and being taught how to make an assertion and writing the president's daily brief that you made assertion that this isn't just technology.
00:42:48.465 --> 00:42:54.932
And you've got a fascinating background and you operated as an operator in the Directorate of Operations.
00:42:55.500 --> 00:43:01.500
How did that really influence your perspective and ability to run the Directorate of Digital Intelligence?
00:43:02.432 --> 00:43:04.432
It it it's, it's a good question.
00:43:04.465 --> 00:43:12.932
I'm glad you asked it because it has it has affected its influence, everything about how I lead DTI.
00:43:13.432 --> 00:43:21.132
So I did come through this role through a nontraditional path and many, many, many years in CIA's Directorate of Operations.
00:43:21.699 --> 00:43:31.599
And that trajectory included a couple of key assignments that have had a great influence on how I how I lead DTI.
00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:37.965
One of those roles in the past was overseeing CIA's engagements with the private sector.
00:43:35.365 --> 00:43:37.965
That was many years ago.
00:43:37.965 --> 00:43:51.699
And then four times I have served as chief of station, and that's a role where you really experience the true power of integration and partnerships and innovation and just problem solving, right?
00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:53.199
As a team.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:44:01.500
So to be successful as a chief of station, it requires a number of things, requires strategy.
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:14.932
You need to know what your where you're heading, what you're trying to do, what you're trying to accomplish, a bias for action, an inclusive culture where you know, everyone can bring their best to mission because you fight with the team you have, but you don't get a different team.
00:44:15.233 --> 00:44:16.965
You fight with the team you have.
00:44:16.965 --> 00:44:21.900
And so you need to understand all the skills and your expertize and knowledge that people bring.
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:29.132
So you get to know your team when you apply those skills in interesting new ways, you have to be able to build deep and meaningful partnerships.
00:44:29.132 --> 00:44:39.333
And so that's within the national security community, across an embassy environment and with foreign governments really importantly and something I always talk about.
00:44:39.333 --> 00:44:42.000
But you have to be kind of an optimist.
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:51.300
You have to believe that you can do something that's otherwise pretty daunting and most people would think potentially impossible.
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:53.666
You must be comfortable with risk.
00:44:53.666 --> 00:44:57.465
You have to understand that risk is sometimes very, very high.
00:44:57.465 --> 00:44:58.865
Risk is just part of the business.
00:45:00.233 --> 00:45:16.166
You have to learn very fast from failure because you know the same mistake twice and you're out of business but fast and you have to continually innovate. And and if all that sounds familiar, based on what we were just talking about for VII, it's very similar.
00:45:16.166 --> 00:45:21.932
It's pretty much the same skills applied in a technology environment.
00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:39.233
And so all those years and the director of operations in all those many years as a chief of station in the field, in essence, that role is kind of integrator in the field, bringing all these things together, mixing them up in new ways.
00:45:39.233 --> 00:45:48.132
And you know ideally creating something magical where you can unlock success against something truly, truly difficult.
00:45:48.132 --> 00:46:07.000
And and it turns out, as I mentioned a moment ago, this is his mission, right, to blend digital, human and technical intelligence operations at scale and at the speed of mission, meaning human machine partnering.
00:46:07.432 --> 00:46:30.599
And so if I if this ground has affected my leadership of DTI, I would say that it has caused me to focus in really intensely on integration, urgency and the practical application of technology to real mission.
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:34.266
So just a moment ago, Eric, just like get real stuff done.
00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:36.766
Do it today and do it as a team.
00:46:36.932 --> 00:46:55.965
Yeah, well, you know, it's so interesting and I think about so much of what Cliff and I are dedicated to is mission storytelling and getting this message out there of, of what you're doing, the incredibly important mission, the the attitude in the work that you're doing going forward.
00:46:55.965 --> 00:46:59.900
And I must I must say, I wish and I know we can't.
00:46:59.900 --> 00:47:11.833
I have had the opportunity over the years to sit with people like yourself in the appropriate settings where all the classifications people are read in and talk about some of the things that you did and it's mind blowing.
00:47:11.833 --> 00:47:14.699
And I wish our listeners could get an understanding.
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:17.465
It actually blows away the movies, you know?
00:47:17.465 --> 00:47:19.465
Yeah, there's all of that crazy stuff.
00:47:19.465 --> 00:47:20.666
But when you're looking at the.
00:47:20.666 --> 00:47:22.199
Car chases and that.
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.532
Sort of thing, right? Yeah.
00:47:24.565 --> 00:47:30.565
But the real problem sets the gravity of it, the importance of it for our national security.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.800
And certainly, Jennifer, it seems to me what has to be intertwined.
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:44.699
Of course, you as a person, the adrenalin handling, that pressure, the toughness that you develop, I mean, that has to help you today as well.
00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:45.932
But I'd love to get your thoughts on that.
00:47:47.065 --> 00:47:51.400
Well, you know, it's you gain perspective over time. Right.
00:47:51.432 --> 00:47:58.900
And and I don't mean to minimize any problems, but there's there's real drama and there's fake drama.
00:47:59.300 --> 00:48:05.500
And, you know, a lot of a lot of what happens in Washington is pretty much fake manufactured drama.
00:48:06.233 --> 00:48:21.300
And so, again, I don't mean to minimize it, but when somebody approaches me breathless with some urgent challenge, I have to admit, I often ask two questions Is anyone dead and is anyone in jail?
00:48:21.766 --> 00:48:23.400
And the answers are No.
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.865
I say, okay, just pause for a moment.
00:48:26.865 --> 00:48:28.266
Let's talk. Yeah, right.
00:48:28.266 --> 00:48:30.632
And I'm not trying to minimize it.
00:48:30.632 --> 00:48:41.400
What I'm just suggesting is that and I've said this already, risk is the defining characteristic of the CIA, and the CIA could not manage risk.
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:43.465
The CIA could not be the CIA.
00:48:43.699 --> 00:48:45.400
That is what we do every single day.
00:48:45.400 --> 00:49:02.233
Whether you are an analyst creating kind of a touch, tough judgment on what you think an adversary is going to do, or you are an operations officer on the street of a hostile capital meeting, is a sensitive source doing so in very dangerous circumstances?
00:49:02.500 --> 00:49:05.132
Or you are working with military partners in the war zone?
00:49:05.532 --> 00:49:16.432
Or if you are developing new technology that may cost a lot of money and carry a lot of risk, every single thing we do is about risk.
00:49:16.432 --> 00:49:18.900
And so we have to just be able to exist in that.
00:49:18.900 --> 00:49:42.666
And and I will say, and this reminds me of one thing, but if we talk about things that might be surprising to those who work outside the agency, we do focus a lot on wellness, on resiliency, you know, having that that store of of of strength and calm, the things that get you through those very difficult moments.
00:49:42.666 --> 00:50:00.365
And it is it is an area of really strong focus at CIA to ensure that the workforce can be healthy and well and thrive even while working in what many would consider a fairly extreme career.
00:50:00.565 --> 00:50:01.500
Mm hmm.
00:50:01.666 --> 00:50:08.432
Well, I certainly, Jennifer, appreciate you talking with us today and sharing your insights.
00:50:08.766 --> 00:50:17.400
And I know your schedule is incredibly packed, but I really appreciate your dedication to the mission and everything that you and your team are doing.
00:50:18.065 --> 00:50:20.132
We're just excited to be part of getting this story out there.
00:50:20.465 --> 00:50:23.166
So, Eric, it has been my pleasure, really.
00:50:23.166 --> 00:50:26.565
I'm just so delighted to have had a little time to talk to you today.
00:50:26.565 --> 00:50:40.565
Trust me, this will be the best hour of my day. So but I just want to thank you for the invitation and for the opportunity to share just a little bit about some of the really cool stuff that CIA is working on.
00:50:40.733 --> 00:50:41.199
Awesome.
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:43.800
Thanks so much, Jennifer, and hope you have a great rest of the day.
00:50:44.166 --> 00:50:46.766
You, too. Thanks so much.
00:50:47.132 --> 00:50:49.132
So great to talk with Jennifer.
00:50:49.132 --> 00:50:51.932
And I loved the insight. Right.
00:50:52.365 --> 00:51:16.199
And I thought it was so interesting that there's real drama and there's fake drama and that understanding that maturity that Jennifer has and that skill set is allowing her to, let's be candid, do a very tough job, I guarantee you, driving the change that she and her team are doing has a lot of challenges.
00:51:16.865 --> 00:51:26.666
But if you've been out in the real mission, the real difficult areas, you're able to get it done because you have the right skills, you have the right capacity.
00:51:27.065 --> 00:51:33.266
I also love the perspective of a collision of ideas and backgrounds and perspectives.
00:51:34.365 --> 00:51:39.333
It's kind of like medically meets CIA technology.
00:51:39.333 --> 00:51:47.032
Human perspectives create activity, crashing those together to drive change at the speed of mission.
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:49.865
Love it as always.
00:51:49.865 --> 00:51:51.432
Hit us up on social media.
00:51:51.432 --> 00:51:53.132
Would love to get your thoughts.
00:51:53.132 --> 00:51:56.199
This is an incredibly important mission.
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:03.166
And the last thing I would say is people like Jennifer, the courage to be different.
00:52:03.865 --> 00:52:12.500
We need more of that out there in our partnerships with industry, in new ways to acquire capabilities, in new ways to take risks.
00:52:12.666 --> 00:52:15.666
Love the focus on taking smart risks.
00:52:16.233 --> 00:52:21.166
New ways to change our mindsets to get things done for these missions.
00:52:21.166 --> 00:52:25.666
You've come different ideas from the outside applied to government to drive change.
00:52:25.666 --> 00:52:28.065
It's like Ted Talks meets the federal space.
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:35.666
Different ideas from different industries uncovered, unvarnished and smashed together to produce change in the government space.
00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:40.000
Join us as we explore a world of government possibilities.