When 'No' is the conversation that matters most

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NOTE Timestamps are estimated from transcript text; not audio-synchronised.
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Christy: It's much easier for me to say yes, and then of
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Christy: course I do get myself in trouble on a regular basis.
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Ronald: I kept trusting my head without my heart.
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Ronald: I signed a contract, and then I invested in it, and
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Ronald: now it's a total loss, and the guy is gone.
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Kim Pong: Very often we say yes because we're under pressure to be
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Kim Pong: liked, but the ability to say no creates that opportunity for
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Kim Pong: us to explore.
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Ronald: Danger is very real, but fear is a choice.
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Kim Pong: Welcome, everybody, to Everything Is Conversation.
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Kim Pong: And today, when I woke up, I'm like, "My gosh, we
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Kim Pong: are meeting Ronald Chan, a good friend of mine!" I'm really
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Kim Pong: excited about it. Christy, how are you doing?
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Christy: I'm doing so well, and actually, I was thinking the same
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Christy: thing, 'cause it took me down memory lane of the years,
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Christy: actually, when I lived in Hong Kong.
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Christy: How nice to be catching up with someone who is a
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Christy: local. I think he's got a long, long, really interesting history
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Christy: in Hong Kong. Many, many, many generations.
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Christy: So I'm so excited actually to get to know Ronald a
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Christy: little bit better.
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Kim Pong: And what's our topic for Ronald today, Christy?
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Christy: Actually, this is going to be really intriguing to hear Ronald's
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Christy: stories on this: “When no is the conversation that matters most.”As
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Christy: a person who struggles to say no, it's much easier for
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Christy: me to say yes, and then of course I do get
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Christy: myself in trouble on a regular basis, so I'm so curious
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Christy: to explore just what actually, what are the values around saying
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Christy: no? How can setting limits actually strengthen trust?
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Christy: How can you say no in a way that actually engenders
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Christy: trust in you, other than being Mr.
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Christy: Nice Guy? So I'm really curious just about how he sets
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Christy: boundaries, how those could be seen as more relational acts of
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Christy: goodwill rather than rejecting someone.
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Kim Pong: Yeah. And I'm just wondering, why is it so difficult for
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Kim Pong: people to say no? I mean, for some people, and to
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Kim Pong: be honest, some people, saying no is a really easy thing.
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Kim Pong: But from my experience, a lot of people that I interacted
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Kim Pong: with, saying no is a very heavy consideration.
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Kim Pong: Why do you think that's the case for most people?
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Christy: I mean, I think people, I think people want to be
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Christy: liked. Actually, if we're gonna drill it down to just the
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Christy: fundamental, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
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Kim Pong: So with that, I would love to get Ronald onto the
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Kim Pong: show right now. He's based out in Hong Kong, founder, owner,
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Kim Pong: CIO of Chartwell Capital Limited. Recognized for value-oriented investing.
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Kim Pong: One of Hong Kong's most sought-after voices in finance and investing.
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Kim Pong: Good morning to you, Ronald. How are you doing, my friend?
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Ronald: Good morning. Thanks for having me, Kim Pong and Christy.
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Christy: So Ronald, you're a finance guy.
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Christy: What is something that is non-financial that would be great to
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Christy: know about you?
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Ronald: Well, I'm a rare book collector.
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Ronald: I enjoy finding things out, reading and collecting rare books because
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Ronald: it gives me different perspectives of history, and I'm a big
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Ronald: fan of George Orwell. I think he's a prolific writer.
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Ronald: So do you know what was the year when 1984 was
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Ronald: published?
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Christy: Oh, that's actually a great question.
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Kim Pong: That's a good question.
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Ronald: It's easy. It's 1948.
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Kim Pong: Oh, really? Oh, wow.
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Ronald: So he was asked to, he was asked to, uh, name
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Ronald: the book. Yeah. And it was in 1948, and he said,
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Ronald: "Okay, this is very futuristic, so let's just turn it around
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Ronald: and say '84."
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Kim Pong: I love that. Wow, is it a reasonable-
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Ronald: Well, I like finding things out.
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Ronald: Those are, those are things that I enjoy.
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Kim Pong: I never knew that, and I, I always wondered why did
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Kim Pong: he call it 1984? So with that, I'm gonna shoot you
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Kim Pong: a really easy opening question for today's conversation, Ronald, and the
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Kim Pong: question's a really simple one. Is saying no easy for you?
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Ronald: It's never been easy. As Christy mentioned earlier, everybody wants to
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Ronald: be nice, everybody wants to be accepted, and saying yes gives
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Ronald: a more positive affirmation. So saying no has never been easy
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Ronald: to me. I would rather share with you what I learned
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Ronald: after I said yes when it should have been a no,
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Ronald: right?
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Kim Pong: Okay. That's a good one, yeah.
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Ronald: I think sometimes as an investor, we say yes with a
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Ronald: calculated mind. We crunch the numbers, we assess the business, and
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Ronald: we say yes. But then there is this itchy feeling in
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Ronald: your heart, where you don't trust your heart, but you trust
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Ronald: your head. And then after you make the decision, you realize
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Ronald: that I should have said no, because I didn't feel right
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Ronald: inside.
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Christy: Right.
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Ronald: So there was an investment I made quite some years ago
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Ronald: when everything seemed too good to be true, and my head
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Ronald: believed in it. But when I signed a contract in front
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Ronald: of the counterparty, I just had this feeling of this person
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Ronald: really just wanting me to write him a check without genuinely
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Ronald: believing in the business. And then I kept trusting my head
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Ronald: without my heart. I signed a contract, and then I invested
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Ronald: in it, and now it's a total loss, and the guy
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Ronald: is gone.
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Ronald: So my heart was telling me that guy's probably a con
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Ronald: artist, but my head said the numbers are great, and at
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Ronald: least I will break even and all that.
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Ronald: So those are the lessons I learned when I start trusting
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Ronald: my heart a little bit more and not trusting my head.
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Ronald: So that's one incident. But another bigger incident is sometimes all
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Ronald: the great virtues that, that you believe in allow you to
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Ronald: say yes, but you should face reality and just say no
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Ronald: to it.
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Christy: Why is that?
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Ronald: Because they thought they were gonna come out two months later,
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Ronald: three months later, or during Christmas so they could go home.
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Ronald: And year after year, they were just there, and then maybe
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Ronald: by the third or the fourth year, they just broke apart.
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Ronald: And maybe some of them killed themselves.
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Ronald: Some of them just lost hope had a mental breakdown.
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Ronald: I don't know. But those who survive was those who faced
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Ronald: brutal reality assuming that they were never gonna get out.
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Ronald: So let's just face it. How am I gonna live a
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Ronald: life without getting out? And how am I gonna treat myself
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Ronald: and mentally be prepared that I'm gonna stay here forever?
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Ronald: It's actually those who survive.
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Kim Pong: Yeah. Wow.
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Ronald: So after reading that passage, I, I, I broke out in
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Ronald: tears and in cold sweat thinking that, "Hey, what if we're
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Ronald: never gonna get out from the pandemic?
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Ronald: What if the capital is never gonna come back?
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Ronald: What am I gonna do?"
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Ronald: Am I gonna be lying to myself, giving blind hope and
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Ronald: blind faith to my colleagues? Not to mention, I have to
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Ronald: start plowing in some capital to grow and subsidize the company
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Ronald: during those hard times. So that was a passage that got
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Ronald: me thinking, hey, you know what?
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Ronald: Let's face it. Perseverance is important, patience is key, but it
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Ronald: is also important to be real to yourself and say no
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Ronald: to what you truly believe in now and just face reality.
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Ronald: So the next day I woke up saying, "No, we are
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Ronald: not gonna get out. I don't know where money's coming back,
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Ronald: who's gonna come back, and what are we gonna do if
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Ronald: this is gonna be a no forever?" And it's funny how
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Ronald: when you start saying no and you start facing reality, you
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Ronald: start thinking of great ideas to jumpstart your business again.
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Christy: Mm. Can you share a little bit more about what you
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Christy: just said?
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Ronald: So Christy, during the pandemic, if I asked you for 1
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Ronald: million US dollar, you'd probably say no to me, right?
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Christy: I probably would.
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Ronald: Or you, or 10 million US dollar, you probably would say
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Ronald: no. Yeah. But, but essentially, what is 1 million US dollar
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Ronald: to me as a fund manager?
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Ronald: It's 15,000 US dollar. Because my management fee is 1.5%.
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Ronald: So at that very moment, I asked myself, "Is it easier
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Ronald: if I ask Christy for 15,000 US dollar than a million
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Ronald: US dollar?" Because essentially they are the same thing.
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Ronald: So when everybody was waiting blindly for capital to come in,
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Ronald: we tweak our business model around and say, "Look, we are
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Ronald: financial veterans. We know how to navigate the market.
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Ronald: You are probably not gonna give me money to manage, but
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Ronald: you may like my advice. You may like my ideas.
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Ronald: And for 15,000 US dollar a year, maybe, you give me
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Ronald: this subscription-based model where I'll give you financial advice during the
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Ronald: pandemic." And, and it's equivalent to a million US dollar that,
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Ronald: that I would have asked you for.
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Kim Pong: Ronald, I really love your story, saying no and pivoting to
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Kim Pong: something amazing. I love that reframing of a business idea, and
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Kim Pong: what you just did is just incredible.
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Kim Pong: And, and this Stockdale paradox essentially is about, don't just be
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Kim Pong: hopeful, but be real and be hopeful.
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Kim Pong: Very often we say yes because we're under pressure to be
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Kim Pong: liked, but the ability to say no creates that window of
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Kim Pong: opportunity for us to explore beyond where we are today.
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Ronald: The judgment of character. Your head does all the calculation.
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Ronald: Your head projects the future, predicts the future, but it doesn't
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Ronald: really have a heart for the future.
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Ronald: And then when you look at the person in the eye,
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Ronald: judging whether that person can create a future, especially if they're
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Ronald: entrepreneurs, that's really when the heart comes in.
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Ronald: Like-minded people naturally come together. If you don't feel right dealing
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Ronald: with the counterparty, irregardless of how smart, how great they are,
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Ronald: just walk away. The other day I said to a friend,
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Ronald: "There's no such thing as bad influence." If you are part
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Ronald: of that gang, if you are part of that group, you
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Ronald: are part of them, so you are part of the bad
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Ronald: influence. Walk away and find another crowd.
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Ronald: And maybe that other crowd is also bad influence in a
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Ronald: different way, but essentially like-minded people will come together.
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Ronald: If your heart tells you that it doesn't feel right, then
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Ronald: just walk away.
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Kim Pong: So this is a little bit of the reverse here.
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Kim Pong: Now it's the heart that's captivated, but the head is saying
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Kim Pong: something is not quite right. How would you see this any
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Kim Pong: differently? What advice would you give to somebody who is in
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Kim Pong: that dilemma?
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Ronald: Something my father told me and taught me, he said, "When
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Ronald: you look at a person or when you try to, you
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Ronald: know, partner with someone, think of five things.
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Ronald: Number one, intelligence. Number two, integrity.
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Ronald: Number three, network. Number four, stability.
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Ronald: And number five, performance." Now, they go in order, and I'll
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Ronald: explain.
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Christy: Ronald, there's a lot about the place of courage in decision-making.
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Christy: Courage to say yes, courage to say no, courage to disagree
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Christy: with someone, courage to go out on your own or to
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Christy: follow your heart. Do what you love and the money will
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Christy: follow, et cetera, et cetera. Is there a place for courage
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Christy: anymore then?
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Ronald: It reminds me of Ernest Hemingway saying that courage is grace
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Ronald: under pressure. Courage comes in different forms.
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Ronald: Courage to act, courage to say no.
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Ronald: There is no one definitive answer.
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Ronald: Sometimes courage needs conviction, calculation, and also the trust of the
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Ronald: heart.
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Christy: During your COVID experience where you were having to make some
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Christy: critically difficult decisions about your business, did you feel brave?
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Ronald: In a movie by Will Smith, he said, "Danger is very
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Ronald: real, but fear is a choice." So you wake up the
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Ronald: next morning, well ahead of you, danger is real.
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Ronald: But whether you are fearful or not, or you really fear
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Ronald: about the future, that's a choice.
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Ronald: So, so as we wake up every day, we have no
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Ronald: clue about the future. I tell you, the Hong Kong stock
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Ronald: market over the past few months have dropped 18%.
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Kim Pong: I was just listening to you, and this, this statement pop
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Kim Pong: into my head, that courage is the action in the hope
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Kim Pong: of things unseen. If I choose courage over fear, perhaps I
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Kim Pong: could realize the hope. I think very often people are just
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Kim Pong: hopeful, but there's no courage to act, and I think this
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Kim Pong: goes hand-in-hand. Whatever we say no to, there has to be
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Kim Pong: action that follows that. Whatever we say yes to, again, there's
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Kim Pong: an action that follows it. The question is this: Which is
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Kim Pong: the better choice? Which is the right choice?
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Ronald: He mentioned that, imagine you got this punch card where you
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Ronald: can only punch 20 times, and these are your decisions, and
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Ronald: you can't reverse the punches. And if there are only 20
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Ronald: punches in a punch card, then you will have to be
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Ronald: very careful in the way you make decision.
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Ronald: That's also another framework for you to say no to.
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Ronald: If I am only allowed to make 20 decisions in my
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Ronald: life, then you will be very careful with it.
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Kim Pong: So I get the idea that you only have 20 holes
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Kim Pong: in a punch card, so you're gonna be really careful in
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Kim Pong: making every punch. I get that.
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Kim Pong: But we also live in a world whereby, hey, you gotta
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Kim Pong: step out and feel the air, you gotta step out and
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Kim Pong: experiment, because you never know what you don't know until you
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Kim Pong: get into it, right?And then what do you say to that?
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Kim Pong: I mean, if I'm always constantly thinking and hedging about the
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Kim Pong: holes I'm gonna be punching, would I ever punch the hole
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Kim Pong: that I should be punching? What are your thoughts on that?
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Ronald: I guess you need to have an enterprising and adventurous spirit
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Ronald: to begin with. You could say yes to the world, you
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Ronald: could say yes to Mother Nature by exploring the world and
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Ronald: saying yes to many things. But when you have to make
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Ronald: important decisions, like a big financial decision, a big commitment that
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Ronald: could be pivoting and life-changing in your career, then that's when
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Ronald: you have to take out your punch card.
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Kim Pong: You know, I never really quite think about this idea of
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Kim Pong: saying a no as part of an atomic habit.
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Kim Pong: It's a really interesting perspective. Like, what are some of the
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Kim Pong: habits that you wanna inculcate a little bit at a time,
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Kim Pong: and then over time they become something that you almost by
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Kim Pong: intuition, you know what you're supposed to do leading up to
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Kim Pong: the yes or no? What is one habit that people should
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Kim Pong: be consciously developing so that they could say the right no?
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Ronald: You really got me into this other quote that I had
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Ronald: that popped up by Samuel Johnson.
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Ronald: He said, "The chains of habits are too light to be
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Ronald: felt until they are too heavy to be broken." Be genuine.
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Ronald: And don't be afraid to show your weakness.
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Ronald: Be vulnerable. I think it's okay to tell people, "Hey, I
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Ronald: really can't drink. If you respect me, I'm happy to go
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Ronald: out with you for a drink, but I will have non-alcoholic
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Ronald: beverage." And to tell people that you are who you are,
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Ronald: can't do what they can do.
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Ronald: But if you are respectful of each other, then you could
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Ronald: continue the conversation, remain friendly with one another.
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Ronald: What I found in the investment world is everybody's so rich.
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Ronald: Everybody has so much money to invest.
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Ronald: And sometimes maybe it's better to say, "Hey, look, I really
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Ronald: don't have much capital to invest.
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Ronald: I'm broke. I don't have money.
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Ronald: You know, I would love to invest, but I don't have
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Ronald: that money." And maybe that's a better conversation than say, "Hey,
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Ronald: I'm gonna think about it, but this is not right.
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Ronald: I don't like your style." Let's just say it, "Hey I
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Ronald: don't have that much money. Come on, you are asking the
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Ronald: wrong client."
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Kim Pong: This whole idea, how does habits help you to say no,
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Kim Pong: I realize I never really quite think of habits that we
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Kim Pong: need to build in order to say the nos that we
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Kim Pong: must. So I'm seeing something really different today, which is inculcating
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Kim Pong: habits in our lives that means something to us, that perhaps
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Kim Pong: keep us a little bit more authentic, keep us a little
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Kim Pong: bit more grounded. These are the very actions that I think
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Kim Pong: is gonna help us to be able to say no when
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Kim Pong: push comes to shove. Yeah?
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Christy: Actually, you're just triggering something that we started with at the
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Christy: top of this conversation, which is we're talking about setting boundaries.
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Christy: Your habit, the habits that you have then allow you or
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Christy: require you, in a sense, if you're true to yourself, to
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Christy: set boundaries and limits, and that's a good thing.
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Kim Pong: And I really, really love that.
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Kim Pong: It's about stepping up, speaking up, and then being really real.
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Kim Pong: So with that, thank you very much, Ronald.
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Kim Pong: But before we let you go, we have a tradition in
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Kim Pong: ending this particular podcast, and it's what we call the quick
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Kim Pong: fire round. And essentially, I'm gonna shoot seven questions at you.
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Kim Pong: Say what comes to your mind in that moment.
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Kim Pong: It should be a one word or a little short phrase
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Kim Pong: in your response. So you ready?
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Ronald: Yes.
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Kim Pong: Okay, let's go. First question: Dim sum or chicken rice?
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Ronald: Dim sum.
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Kim Pong: If your life had a sell button, what would you sell
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Kim Pong: immediately?
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Ronald: Wow. That one I don't know.
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Ronald: Can you ask the third question?
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Kim Pong: Yeah. What's one word your family would use to describe you?
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Ronald: Wow, that's another hard one. They think I have bad temper.
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Kim Pong: Bad temper. All right, that's good enough.
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Ronald: Yeah.
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Kim Pong: Which is harder, saying no, saying sorry, saying I don't know?
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Ronald: I don't know.
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Kim Pong: Okay. What's the worst investment you have ever made that wasn't
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Kim Pong: money?
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Ronald: Trusting the wrong person.
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Kim Pong: All right. If your grandchildren watch this episode one day, what's
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Kim Pong: one sentence you'll want them to remember?
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Ronald: Danger is real, but fear is a choice.
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Kim Pong: Okay. All right. Last question: What was the last thing you
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Kim Pong: said no to?
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Ronald: I said no to going out tonight, to meet my friends
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Ronald: for drinking.
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Kim Pong: All right.
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Ronald: Thank you.
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Kim Pong: Yeah, so with that, everybody, thank you very much for joining
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Kim Pong: us on this podcast, and it is a great pleasure that
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Kim Pong: we have Ronald Chan with us.
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Kim Pong: So Ronald, thank you very much for your time, thank you,
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Kim Pong: Ronald for your contribution.
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Christy: Such a pleasure. Such a pleasure.
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Kim Pong: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Kim Pong: Thank you, and like we say, everything is conversation, Christy.
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Christy: Everything is conversation. We'll see everyone next time.
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Kim Pong: All right. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.