Emergency Ep: Cops Are Using Flock Cameras To Stalk Women

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Hey folks, thank you so much for tuning in for
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this exclusive extra bonus episode of Dinky. I am Erica,
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and today I'm bringing you a very important episode. I'm
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speaking with Jenna Sherman, who serves as campaign director for Ultraviolet,
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a national advocacy organization that drives feminist cultural and political
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change and works to improve the lives of all women
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and gender expansive people by disrupting patriarchy and creating a
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cost for sexism. You may have seen Ultraviolet's recent campaign
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against flock cameras, specifically in raising awareness for their partnership
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with Ulta. Jenna joins me today to discuss the issue
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and talk about what folks can do to fight back.
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Before we get into it, as always, if you're looking
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to make child-free friends or you want extra content from Dinky,
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please consider joining our community at patreon.com slash dinkypod. Let's
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get into it.
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Wait, can I see your nails? Yes.
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What color are they? Are they like white or are they?
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They're like a jade, sort of.
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That's what I thought. But then they started looking white
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and I started feeling crazy. But they're so pretty.
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Totally. They're sort of gaslight nails. Thank you so much.
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I was describing them to people as like a glow
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in the dark glue. And then my friend at yoga
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was like, oh, they're like jade. And I was like,
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that is so much better. That's a descriptor. Then like
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Elmer's glue that glows in the dark. Like, what does
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that even mean? Like, I don't understand. But they were
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also my engagement nails. I just got engaged. So I
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was like, they were special.
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Congrats!
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Thank you.
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So it was kind of.
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A saga because I wanted to get white and then
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they weren't white. And I was like, now they're glue colored.
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But it all worked out.
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Excuse me.
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Get it straight.
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Yeah.
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Well, congrats on your engagement.
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How exciting. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.
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When did that happen? It happened three weeks ago. Oh,
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my gosh.
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That's incredible. Now I just want to talk to you
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about that. Fuck the vlog cameras.
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Totally.
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Totally.
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Okay.
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Well, I am here with Jenna Sherman. Thank you, Jenna,
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for joining us. I am really excited to talk to
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you because I've been following Ultraviolet for a little while
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and the work that you guys are doing is really cool.
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I think what you're talking about now is particularly relevant
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to our audience. And so for folks who maybe don't know,
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let's just go ahead and jump in. Can you tell
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me a little bit about what flock cameras are and
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why we should be concerned about them?
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Yes, I would be happy to. The first thing I'll
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say is that the name pisses me off to no end.
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It's so misleading. You think about flock and you're like, oh,
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flock of like sheep or lamb and... This is really
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the spiritual opposite of that. So Flock is a company
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and they are a company that produces and sells a
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type of technology, a type of tool called an automatic
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license plate reader, which is such a mouthful. And some
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people abbreviate it to ALPR. Somehow that like sounds even
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worse to me. It's like sounds like some weird federal
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like code. But what those letters and words mean is
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a camera that uses AI to identify license plates.
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That's basically what it means.
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Like they are specifically rigged up to basically snap pictures
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and videos of license plates in like strip malls or
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on highways, intersections to identify cars. And that sounds pretty simple, right? Like, okay, well,
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you know, they're just identifying cars. But they're really capturing
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a whole bigger picture with those like quote unquote photos
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of cars that they're taking. This company wants us to
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think like, oh, it's just, you know, it's for safety
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and law enforcement uses this and it's for anti-theft protection.
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You can think of it sort of as like ring camera,
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but like for cities and like big malls. It's sort
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of like big, big, like corporate ring with like a
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new special feature to track license plates around. And there's
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a ton of them. They want us to think that
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it's just about anti-fap safety and that they're not tracking
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so much of our information, but they're really capturing way
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more because it's like constant image and video capture, which
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is the entire environment. It's not like they're zooming in
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and taking a picture just of license plates. It's capturing
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people walking by on crosswalks. It's capturing families and kids
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walking across parking lots. Some people are coming across these
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ALPRs multiple times a day. And for them, it creates
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a pretty clear profile of where they're going, what their
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schedule is, where their work or.
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Home might be.
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So there's a lot of sensitive information that this is capturing.
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There's over 130,000 flock cameras.
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Across the U.S. right now that we know about.
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And the biggest contractors are actually cities and municipalities. So
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like local governments.
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However... A lot of companies also use these too. So
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some of.
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The biggest retailers are Lowe's and Home Depot. But we
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also recently learned that Ulta Beauty, like the makeup company,
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has a contract with Flock, is using Flock cameras at
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some of their stores. And that example to me just
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really goes to show.
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How far deep we are in this crisis.
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From my perspective, a lot of us know, especially who
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think about these types of issues related to immigration, for instance,
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or reproductive rights, that people are being monitored, families are
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being separated through the use of all kinds of tools.
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Some of the big players are like, let's say, like
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those types of home improvement stores. But a shop like
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Ulta Beauty, to me, really demonstrates like how insidious this
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tech has become. So that's just a sort of 101
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on like, what is flock?
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Who's buying them? What is the technology? Yeah.
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So I kind of want to dig into that with
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you a little bit because I'm really curious. I keep
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seeing people. from flock specifically talking about how like oh
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we're only capturing license plate data we're only capturing license
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plate data it sounds like that's not the case right.
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Yeah and and i should say like i should caveat
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this like i'm i'm not i don't work for them
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like i don't really know like what's.
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Going on i guess that's very obvious but.
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Like having an interview with flock that's the next episode.
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Surprise Yeah, next episode, I'll get an inside job and
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we can report.
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Back on that. Yeah, I mean, I think here is
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the distinction.
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Flock isn't using, from what I understand, again, like, this is,
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I'm coming from a specific area of, like, expertise feels
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like a weird thing to say, but expertise here. But
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what I'll say is they... are not explicitly, to my knowledge,
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using facial recognition technology to identify people as they're walking
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by or driving by. So not every single person, you know,
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walking in a parking lot, walking in to get their mascara,
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you know, Better Than Sex mascara from Ulta, is getting
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like immediately ID'd by these flat cameras. The purpose is
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like first and foremost for the license plates. And my
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understanding is they're not, and I think that's why they're
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saying this, the cameras aren't built in with the facial
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recognition technology. But what we are learning- through investigations, through hackers,
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to be honest, and through other research, is that the
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flock data can absolutely be used to identify people. So
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just this week, actually, hackers ripped down a flock camera
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somewhere and dumped the data.
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And they found around 50,000 vehicles that were identified.
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And, like, 1.6 million images, which were also, like, you know, included, like,
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video footage. And that was just in, like, 21 days.
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And they found that the device, like, and, like, all
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of those data, like, could be used to identify individuals.
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And that they were actually, my understanding is, like, there's, like,
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they were able to pull certain markers.
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Like, oh, like, the car had, this car has this marking,
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so it's, like, tied to that person. Or something.
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Other characteristics like vehicle color, make and model, of course,
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when you're talking about cars, but then also specific identifiers
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of people as well, like tattoos, for instance. So they
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are not, I think that's the distinction is that flock
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isn't built in with like a AI based facial recognition technology,
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but the vast amounts of data that they're collecting is.
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within the existing infrastructure that they have makes it extremely
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easy to identify people. And even though that technology isn't
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explicitly and overtly built in for the purposes of whatever
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flock is being used for by these different contractors, once
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the data's there.
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It can.
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Kind of be used for whatever. It's sort of like
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buyer's choice. Like they can use it for really like
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whatever they want to. And if you have like 1.6
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million images in just 21 days, you have to imagine, okay,
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one person might be passing that intersection like 10 times
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a day.
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It's very easy to.
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Know who they are, where they're going, what their life
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and their schedule is, especially because in a lot of
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these like strip malls where the cameras are located are
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like play centers for children and like gymnastics rooms for
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kids and like doctors centers, like including reproductive health centers
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and like all kinds of places that people go that
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like are actually pretty sensitive when you think about them
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on the whole.
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Totally.
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So you said that cities are mostly the people or
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the groups that are contracting flock. Is that predominantly for
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like police departments or how are cities using this service?
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Yeah, they're using it to, I mean, in theory and
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like what they're saying is like they're using it to,
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you know, make it easier to track down shoplifters, for instance,
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or people who've committed a crime so that they can see, okay,
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they crossed this intersection at this time and they must
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be that far. Okay, now we can contact that city
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municipality for their data on if that car was tracked
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an hour later or however long.
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They're using it to track down criminals.
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In their words, they're also using it to like as prevented,
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like I think in their eyes, like preventatively, like to
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prevent speeding and running stoplights and crime in these like
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certain areas. I don't know if that is working. I
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think given how many people are like literally like destroying
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the cameras and tearing them down indicates that probably not.
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But I think they see it as like a preventative
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tool there. Also, I think the way that they're talking
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about this is as like creating more collaboration across law
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enforcement and throughout the country.
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And thank God, because, you know, when was that going
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to happen? Like we needed that.
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Like, thank God they have, you know, like it's like, OK,
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you know, I'm a cop in Missouri. Like, I don't
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have to just worry about, like, Missouri anymore. I can
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if my my guy has gone off to Texas, I
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can call those guys up and see what they've got
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on him.
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Yeah.
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Wow. So they're also seeing this as a way to
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make crime, I think, in their eyes, like easier to
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investigate and solve, like across states.
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Yeah.
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And across municipalities. So that's how like they are, you know,
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saying this is being used. They're also like, you know,
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appealing to the heartstrings by being like, we can track
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like missing elderly people and like lost dogs. But the
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thing is, like, that doesn't really seem to be happening
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like amidst all the other bad things like that we'll
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get into like it also just doesn't really seem to
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be like used in the way that they're saying that
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it's used i'll give two examples the first is like
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this woman lived i think like on some sort of
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corner of the street a flat camera was installed like
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right in front of her house which was not for
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surveilling her specifically but like inadvertently like made her feel
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very uncomfortable Yeah. Obviously, because she was she and her
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family were constantly feeling watched by this camera because they were.
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And because so many people are so angry about flock
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right now. you know people kept coming by to destroy
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the camera and in the process of doing so they
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actually like damaged one of like a camper van or
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something along those lines that this woman had had in
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her parking lot and like she never got any damages
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or any like compensation or anything and that crime was
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never like thoroughly investigated and police essentially threw up their
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hands and were like well how would we know and
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it's like well literally camera right there like the reason
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they were there was to destroy that camera like you
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have those data yeah and her response was ultimately like
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yeah I I guess like obviously like I didn't like
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being put in this position and I'm not happy my
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like van is damaged but like I'm I'm glad that
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these guys destroyed the camera because clearly like they're not
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working and all it was bringing my family was like
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strife and and like feeling of great discomfort So that's
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one example. And the second example I want to give
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is you might have seen this is like content warning,
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like a very horrific story. This is a California based story.
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that is still ongoing right now, in which a 14-year-old
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girl who was raped by her father gave birth on
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the side of the road. The baby was left and
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ultimately died. And the father is still on the run
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with this kidnapped victim, who is his daughter.
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And First of all, it's horrifying.
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And the way that the media is talking about it
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is like referring to her as like the like mother
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accused of murder, which is like so bananas on like
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a hundred different levels and so offensive and upsetting. Like
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this is a child who is a survivor and is
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a victim and is kidnapped by her father. and the
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media is also being like flock is amazing it helped
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us find the dead baby and like now we're gonna
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find this murderous mother and her accomplice and it's like
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i'm sorry like first they haven't been found i'm like
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where like you didn't prevent you didn't prevent this horrific
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thing from happening any of the horrific things from happening
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the the way you're framing this is as if This
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person is a criminal. I think it really these types
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of cameras really flatten like what it means to be
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like a criminal and like what it like the ways
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in which we think about like who.
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Is at wrong.
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And then it also is just frustrating because like none
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of these journalists, none of these cameras actually protected either
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that victimized 14 year old or that infant who is
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now sadly dead. deceased so i just give those two
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examples to show that um you know that like governments
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and law enforcement officers are saying one thing and in
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practice that looks really different in addition to all of
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the other like horrible things that are like very explicitly
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being done with flock like use of flock to stalk
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women including like ex-partner ex-romantic partners.
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Yeah, can you speak to that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That was the next thing I wanted to ask you
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about is I keep hearing about like how like police
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officers or ex-police officers are using it to stalk exes.
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What have you heard on that front?
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Yes. Unfortunately, more than I ever wanted to know. about
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this issue like i'll.
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Never get my brain chemistry back but we know of
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at least like 100 cases in which police officers have
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been like caught oh yeah yeah and that's literally like
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the reported cases like that we know about the action
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has been taken on and yeah so we know of
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like over 100 cases in which police officers have used
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flock to track down to stalk and harass women. It's
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usually like ex-romantic partners or women that the cops are
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just into. There was a recent case out of San
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Jose in which a cop used Flock for his cousin
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to track.
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Down his victim who.
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You know, he's her accused abuser, and he found her
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location for her abuser, and then he used that to, like,
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intimidate and threaten her. So the ways in which it's
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being used are horrifying. Another guy, like, I think ran, like,
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was it, like, 5,000 searches or something? This is in
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Kentucky on... a woman before he was caught. Another guy
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was running constant searches on a woman and then eventually
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tracked her down and pulled her over because he knew
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exactly where her location was and was like, why aren't
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you texting me back?
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So why wasn't she texting him back?
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We'll literally never know, Erica. We'll literally never know.
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And she was like, am I under arrest?
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Am I detained?
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Yeah. Yeah, like, what's the situation? And he had to
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be like, yeah, like, you actually didn't do anything wrong.
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And she was like, okay, then, like, fucking see ya.
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Like, literally, bye.
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Is there any action being taken against men who are
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doing this?
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I mean, they're being fired, which... Yay. Yay. Some of
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them are being fired.
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What's crazy, too, is that a lot of these cases
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we're finding out about happened last year, which just shows, like,
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how bad this issue has been for so long. Right. And, like,
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the fact that, like, pretty publicly they being, like, you know,
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law enforcement, like, local chapter, whatever.
336
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I don't know what. Police department. Thank you. Oh.
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Are not being transparent about when these cases are happening
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and clearly weren't sounding the alarm. If we knew that
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this was already happening very regularly last year, something should
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have been sounded. An alarm should have been sounded very
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clearly and very loudly. And it obviously wasn't. And I
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know a lot of the coverage about this issue really,
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really pisses me off because the articles often say, you know,
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the cameras were misused by these cops. At this point,
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I'd argue they were just using the system that they
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were given.
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I don't think they're misusing anything.
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I think that whoever is contracting the legal law enforcement
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wants them and us to think that it's a misuse problem.
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But really, we don't know exactly how they're using our data.
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We don't know what is in the confines of legal
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versus not legal. Cops used flock cameras, the flock network,
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to track down a woman who got an abortion. who
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had to like leave the state of Texas to get
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an abortion. And like, I get, you know, that was
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technically okay. So what's the, you know, like, where's the
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line here? It really feels like we're being tested and
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pushed to see like, how much are we willing to accept?
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How much are we willing to.
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Be okay with?
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It's sort of like the frog and boiling water metaphor.
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They're like turning the heat up like a little more,
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a little more. And seeing like, are we going to notice?
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Are we going to scream? Like, are we going to
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notice that we're being burned? I'm hopeful because I think
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people are noticing. I think this podcast is like a great,
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great evidence of that. But also they're very much like
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not doing enough to address this problem at scale. Flock
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has like also made some like changes about like data
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retention recent, very recently, like as of the past few weeks,
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making it harder.
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To use to stalk women, I guess. I don't know.
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I haven't looked that into detail into what they changed
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because it felt pretty too little surface level. And yeah,
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too little, too late, to be honest, especially because like
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inherently the way their, their ALPR camera system works is to,
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to track people down. and to identify cars and people
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and patterns. So it's hard to imagine how you remove
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that problem without completely removing the technology itself.
380
00:20:20.029 --> 00:20:21.549
Yeah. So.
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For corporations that are using Flock, you mentioned Lowe's, you
382
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mentioned Ulta. How are they using it? What are they
383
00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:31.619
hoping to get out of it? Because if it's a
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00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:35.019
license plate reader, what good is that doing them?
385
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.400
Yeah. I have questions about that myself.
386
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.809
Because they are mostly saying that this is an anti-theft thing.
387
00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:47.089
tool for them Ulta apparently has like a big problem
388
00:20:47.109 --> 00:20:49.710
with like theft rings which I don't want to say
389
00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:52.230
I find that not believable but it's just it's like
390
00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:55.630
nothing not not that like shoplifting like at scale is
391
00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:57.769
funny but it's just like I'm just kind of like
392
00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:00.519
in like it to me it pales in comparison to
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00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.500
the idea of like women being stalked and like having
394
00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.700
their entire like autonomy stripped of them like i'm i'm
395
00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.579
like i'm sorry like when i think about like thousands
396
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:15.200
of dollars of perfume being taken from a giant corporation
397
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:20.190
like compared to women's livelihoods like being taken from them
398
00:21:20.230 --> 00:21:23.049
like it's just like a little bit funny like darkly
399
00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:25.750
funny because i'm like what do you mean like you
400
00:21:25.809 --> 00:21:30.609
need these cameras to like stop these like theft rings
401
00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:33.960
and you're just identifying people's license. Like I, it just
402
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.220
doesn't totally make sense. I think to them, they're saying like,
403
00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:39.000
you know, a lot of like some, some Ulta beauty
404
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.839
thefts are like hitting the same, like, sorry, the same
405
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.740
people hitting different locations. So they're saying like, Oh, if
406
00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:47.180
we can track like that, it's the same car that,
407
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:49.680
Then we can figure out who the people in that
408
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:52.549
car are, which again, like, it's like, this is actually
409
00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:55.829
about identifying people. If you think about it for like,
410
00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:59.250
like one second, which is so funny to me always.
411
00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:01.069
It's like, no, no, it's just about cars. And then
412
00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:03.349
it's like, I'm sorry, like, what do you need the
413
00:22:03.410 --> 00:22:07.309
car information for, for Yeah, who the hell the people
414
00:22:07.390 --> 00:22:09.599
are that are driving them. So that's what they say
415
00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.180
it's for. Apparently, like they have when we started really
416
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.019
campaigning hard, it got a lot of negative press, which
417
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:16.980
I was thrilled about.
418
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.779
And they sent.
419
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.859
Some sort of like unofficial rep to a couple of
420
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:23.480
different news outlets to say that, you know, they're only
421
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.589
at they're at like less than 1% of stores. And like,
422
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.109
it's just for, you know, specific anti theft purposes, etc.
423
00:22:31.529 --> 00:22:34.470
I mean, maybe that's true. We don't know that also
424
00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:36.920
in part because they haven't said anything publicly and it
425
00:22:36.950 --> 00:22:39.559
was like an unofficial statement that they gave. But also like,
426
00:22:39.619 --> 00:22:43.059
in my opinion, like 15 stores with a flat camera
427
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.259
is 15 too many. 10 stores, five stores, one store
428
00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:49.240
with a flat camera is one too many, especially for
429
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:52.920
a company like Ulta that has a majority women customer base.
430
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:54.920
A hundred percent.
431
00:22:54.940 --> 00:23:02.000
Yeah. is a customer base that's aware of surveillance issues and,
432
00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:05.619
and growing increasingly concerned about them. I think the fact
433
00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:09.710
that they're trying to say it's only 1% or whatever,
434
00:23:09.750 --> 00:23:13.230
and like minimize their association with flock indicates to me
435
00:23:13.269 --> 00:23:16.690
that this is actually not at all related to customer safety,
436
00:23:16.769 --> 00:23:17.849
which is something they've said.
437
00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:20.549
They say like, well, this is about customer safety too.
438
00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:22.869
And like, that's a lie. Like that's just a lie.
439
00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:26.769
Yeah. If this was about our safety, they would really
440
00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:30.089
proudly tout this partnership and be like, yeah, this is awesome.
441
00:23:30.109 --> 00:23:34.710
We're protecting our customers from crime, and this is how
442
00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:37.009
we're doing it, and it's really cool. But that's not
443
00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:41.130
what they're doing. And I think that speaks volumes. Yeah,
444
00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:45.920
I think that really speaks volumes to the position that
445
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:47.559
they're in. And the last thing that I'll say on
446
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:50.220
that front is like, It makes me wonder, okay, let's
447
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.039
say hypothetically, I think they have, I think I calculated
448
00:23:53.059 --> 00:23:55.829
the 1% would be like 15 stores for them, which again,
449
00:23:55.869 --> 00:23:58.130
may or may not be true. Where are those 15
450
00:23:58.130 --> 00:24:01.269
stores located? Are they in urban places? Are they in
451
00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:05.319
predominantly black places? Are they in wealthier, whiter neighborhoods to
452
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:09.119
keep out perhaps people who look? Less like those wealthy
453
00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:13.269
white people? Are they near places with a lot of children?
454
00:24:13.609 --> 00:24:17.829
Are they in strip malls with Planned Parenthoods in them?
455
00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:20.910
I just have questions about where these cameras are. And
456
00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:24.250
it makes me also think about the disproportionate impacts of
457
00:24:24.329 --> 00:24:27.890
this surveillance and the certain types of women who are
458
00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:30.680
most likely to be negatively impacted. Yeah.
459
00:24:31.539 --> 00:24:33.319
Especially because I didn't even mention this yet.
460
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.559
One in 10 of the license plate identification like that
461
00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:39.259
the AI does is wrong.
462
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:45.180
They get the state wrong. One in 10, like 10%.
463
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:47.279
Of the time, it is not even like labeling the
464
00:24:47.299 --> 00:24:51.579
correct license plate. So people, including, like, many women, actually,
465
00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:54.839
and this isn't so surprising because AI is, like, really
466
00:24:54.859 --> 00:24:59.759
bad at anything related to women. And, like, especially women
467
00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:01.559
of color. It's like, I mean, and again, they're not
468
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:05.509
identifying people, but, like, it's all deeply embedded.
469
00:25:05.529 --> 00:25:06.480
That doesn't make sense.
470
00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:06.940
Yeah.
471
00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:08.069
Exactly.
472
00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:12.390
So for folks who are concerned about this, like, is
473
00:25:12.410 --> 00:25:15.089
there a way for them to know, like, if their
474
00:25:15.130 --> 00:25:18.069
city-contracted flock... Is there a way to know where the
475
00:25:18.109 --> 00:25:20.859
flock cameras are? are if their Ulta has a flock
476
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.160
camera like can is that information available.
477
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.200
Sort of yeah there's some piecemeal systems unfortunately we don't
478
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.259
know what Ulta stores have cameras although some people are
479
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.119
are kind of like identifying like I've been seeing a
480
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.440
lot of this on reddit which is cool identifying like
481
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.640
oh I noticed that my store has a flock camera
482
00:25:38.660 --> 00:25:40.960
other people are like mine doesn't so people are sort
483
00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:44.319
of creating these informal maps on reddit there's like a
484
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.549
couple different maps about the both like flock contracts and
485
00:25:48.609 --> 00:25:53.769
flock fights. So Newsweek has a map about the 149
486
00:25:53.769 --> 00:25:56.400
cities pushing back against flat cameras. It's a couple of
487
00:25:56.420 --> 00:25:59.930
weeks old now, but it's, it's, it's really great. There's
488
00:25:59.970 --> 00:26:06.470
something called Flock Hopper. You can search don'tgetflocked.com and they
489
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:09.839
have a map that shows where flock cameras are. And
490
00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:13.079
then the third one I mentioned was a Newsweek article
491
00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:17.700
showing where the fights against flock are happening across the country.
492
00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:19.700
And a lot of them, I want to be clear,
493
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:22.599
have been like super successful. Florida even just agreed to
494
00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:26.599
remove flock cameras from highways. And I'm like, if Florida's
495
00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:29.440
doing it, anyone can do it. Yeah.
496
00:26:29.579 --> 00:26:29.880
Wow.
497
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:30.559
That's incredible.
498
00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:31.519
Yeah.
499
00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:34.880
I don't know if you're the right person to ask this, but,
500
00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:38.380
you know, I've been on a Sephora boycott for some
501
00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:42.069
time now, so it's frustrating to hear this about Ulta.
502
00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:43.210
Yeah.
503
00:26:43.230 --> 00:26:46.559
If If both of them are on the boycott list,
504
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.759
do you have any advice on where the girls can
505
00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:53.500
get their skincare and makeup now? Is anywhere safe? Such
506
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.000
a good question. And it's like the number one question
507
00:26:56.019 --> 00:26:56.819
that people are asking.
508
00:26:56.859 --> 00:26:59.180
And I'm like, I'm sorry.
509
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:01.240
I'm a campaign director.
510
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:06.230
Don't come for me. I know I want the makeup too. Don't.
511
00:27:06.349 --> 00:27:08.670
I'm sorry. I'm just the bearer of bad news.
512
00:27:08.730 --> 00:27:11.069
Yeah. But like, And I know that this is an
513
00:27:11.130 --> 00:27:13.589
annoying answer. And I think like the main one being given,
514
00:27:13.609 --> 00:27:16.730
but like, and I'm also in the Sephora boycott.
515
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:17.279
So I'm with you.
516
00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:20.640
But I have been trying to buy directly from brands
517
00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:23.279
as much as possible. So I'm like, okay, what are
518
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:25.880
my favorite brands? Like, where am I getting my lip
519
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.630
liner and mascara and whatever? And like, can I buy
520
00:27:28.670 --> 00:27:31.269
from them? I also I'm very lucky because I live
521
00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:34.690
in Los Angeles and there's like 101 like little local
522
00:27:34.730 --> 00:27:37.569
makeup stores. But there's one like, for instance, like pretty,
523
00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:40.710
pretty close to me. But it's more expensive for sure.
524
00:27:40.750 --> 00:27:42.730
But like I go in person to get like certain
525
00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:45.049
things where I'm like, OK, like I'm tempted to buy this.
526
00:27:45.390 --> 00:27:47.380
I would normally buy this at like Sephora or Ulta,
527
00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:48.819
but I'm going to like buy the bullet and like
528
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:52.039
support a local shop. like spend the extra money and
529
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:54.839
have a little cute in-person experience while doing it um
530
00:27:54.859 --> 00:27:57.000
there's also like great lists you know still of like
531
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:00.460
black owned and small business owned and women owned and
532
00:28:00.509 --> 00:28:03.630
like makeup shops i encourage you know people to try
533
00:28:03.690 --> 00:28:07.029
out new products that they haven't before especially like more
534
00:28:07.069 --> 00:28:11.180
vegan cruelty free ones um Sephora and Ulta aren't, you know,
535
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:13.440
the be all end all. They obviously do some great
536
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:16.640
things for some smaller brands, but those brands are often
537
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:18.980
selling at these like more local stores or on their
538
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.440
own website. And yeah, I know it's such a pain.
539
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:25.269
And also, you know, if you are somebody who's like,
540
00:28:25.470 --> 00:28:27.809
I'm like a gold, I don't know, actually know how
541
00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:29.549
it's ranked, but like I am a gold star.
542
00:28:29.609 --> 00:28:30.990
I was about to say gold member and then I
543
00:28:31.009 --> 00:28:33.829
was like awesome powers. I don't know. I'm like a goal.
544
00:28:33.849 --> 00:28:37.089
I have like a gold star. I have a gold finger.
545
00:28:37.509 --> 00:28:38.910
I'm gold finger. Yeah, thank you.
546
00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:41.039
I'm going to a bachelorette party in like two weeks
547
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:43.480
with Austin Powers theme. So I'm like really in that
548
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.140
mindset right now. Anyway, I for those of you who
549
00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:50.259
are like, I've got the fucking credit card, like I'm
550
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:52.880
like so deep in it, like use that power, you know,
551
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.769
call your representative and be like, I've got like I've
552
00:28:56.809 --> 00:28:59.490
like a five year, you know, credit card, like ultra
553
00:28:59.509 --> 00:29:01.910
credit card holder. I've got like X amount of points
554
00:29:02.269 --> 00:29:04.650
and shopping experience like this is unacceptable.
555
00:29:04.710 --> 00:29:06.359
I demand this. So if you're not in a position
556
00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:08.680
to boycott or you don't want to like you can
557
00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:09.759
use that leverage.
558
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.240
Yeah also and for those of you who are like
559
00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:14.920
me who i haven't really you know i don't shop
560
00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:17.259
it's like not hasn't been my go-to store and it's
561
00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:19.420
easy for me to boycott like make it clear to
562
00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:21.180
them like you can call them and be like i'm
563
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.619
not shopping there anymore um and then go to your
564
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.279
go to your local shops go to the directly to
565
00:29:26.299 --> 00:29:29.940
the sellers online try out some new places and see
566
00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:32.349
what you think and i feel like it'll actually probably
567
00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:34.210
be really sweet and make you feel good.
568
00:29:34.029 --> 00:29:36.069
I think that's great advice about ulta though and i
569
00:29:36.089 --> 00:29:38.329
will just i mean i don't I'm not telling this
570
00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:40.240
story to say that I'm like a hero. I don't
571
00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:43.019
know if this actually had an impact, but like probably
572
00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:46.119
like eight months ago or something, I had gone into
573
00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:51.150
an Ulta and they had a huge Moroccan oil display,
574
00:29:51.190 --> 00:29:53.690
which for folks who don't know, it's like pretty clearly
575
00:29:53.730 --> 00:30:00.410
documented that Moroccan oil is actually produced on Israeli settlement land.
576
00:30:00.529 --> 00:30:03.069
And they had some like sign outside that was like
577
00:30:03.190 --> 00:30:05.680
all about inclusivity and diversity and da da da da.
578
00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:08.619
And I just was so frustrated. And I went up
579
00:30:08.660 --> 00:30:10.039
to one of the workers. I said, I know you're
580
00:30:10.059 --> 00:30:11.799
not responsible for this, but I just have to let
581
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.140
you know, like, I find this so offensive and so wrong.
582
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:17.740
And like, I'm embarrassed that you guys have this up there,
583
00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:19.980
despite the fact that you have all of these like
584
00:30:20.049 --> 00:30:23.650
claims about diversity in your window. And the next time
585
00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:26.369
I came that, which was like a couple of days later,
586
00:30:26.450 --> 00:30:28.869
that was all taken down. And so like, I don't
587
00:30:28.910 --> 00:30:31.809
know if that was just the luck of getting it,
588
00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:36.329
you know, switched out because Moroccan Oil's contract had ended
589
00:30:36.509 --> 00:30:39.609
or if that got leveraged up to their manager and
590
00:30:39.650 --> 00:30:42.210
they took it down because they didn't want, you know,
591
00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:44.440
bad press. But like, I do think people have a
592
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:48.380
lot of power and using that wherever you can, like
593
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:52.640
Better to try than to just not say anything at all.
594
00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:55.880
So I love your point about if you are like
595
00:30:55.940 --> 00:31:00.609
a platinum VIP, whatever, like use that power because they
596
00:31:00.630 --> 00:31:05.470
definitely don't want more attention and anger thrust at them.
597
00:31:05.470 --> 00:31:05.809
100%.
598
00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:07.829
That's so rad, Erica. That makes me so happy. And
599
00:31:07.869 --> 00:31:11.000
I didn't know that about Moroccan oil. I know. And
600
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:12.960
I was literally just in the West Bank like three
601
00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:14.799
weeks ago and I'm like, I don't know.
602
00:31:14.859 --> 00:31:15.980
Like, I didn't know that.
603
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.200
I know. Yeah, yeah.
604
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:19.759
They do a great job at hiding it.
605
00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:22.980
Well, I think that's also just, like, yes, illustrates the
606
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.319
importance of, like, sharing with employees. But also, like, it
607
00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:28.900
can be so uncomfortable and weird to be like, I
608
00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:31.569
don't know. Like, I don't know how I feel about that.
609
00:31:31.609 --> 00:31:33.930
I want to look into it more. Or, like, that
610
00:31:33.970 --> 00:31:36.789
makes me uncomfortable. And, like, telling people that, telling your
611
00:31:36.829 --> 00:31:39.869
friends that, telling your friends and, like, this podcast community
612
00:31:39.910 --> 00:31:42.970
about that experience. And, like, being honest about when you're
613
00:31:43.009 --> 00:31:43.529
not sure.
614
00:31:43.549 --> 00:31:43.670
Mm-hmm.
615
00:31:45.150 --> 00:31:47.299
You know, about something and looking into it and like
616
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:51.660
finding out answers because like we are in such a
617
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:57.440
difficult time of like constant obfuscation. Like brands are constantly
618
00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:00.819
trying to obfuscate what is actually going on. And there
619
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:03.809
are so many fires that none of us could ever
620
00:32:03.849 --> 00:32:06.789
keep up with all the things all at once. But like,
621
00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:11.069
We can totally normalize, like, healthy skepticism and being like,
622
00:32:11.109 --> 00:32:13.910
I don't, like, something doesn't feel right here. Or, like,
623
00:32:14.029 --> 00:32:17.269
I'm going to, like, say that I hear there's flat cameras,
624
00:32:17.289 --> 00:32:20.029
you know, up to the Ulta staff people, even if
625
00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:21.970
I don't know if there's one here or I don't
626
00:32:22.009 --> 00:32:22.890
know that much about it.
627
00:32:23.940 --> 00:32:26.630
It's totally worth it. Yeah. And I really I really
628
00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:27.369
love that example.
629
00:32:27.390 --> 00:32:29.549
And people have been going nutso in a way that
630
00:32:29.609 --> 00:32:33.529
I like super like obsessed with. Like I'm like, this
631
00:32:33.609 --> 00:32:37.619
is what I wanted. Like the women consumer backlash like
632
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:42.240
is here in like full force. And it makes sense
633
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:44.420
that they're trying to win us over the most like
634
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.309
we're women are most skeptical about AI and we have
635
00:32:47.349 --> 00:32:50.430
the most like buying and consumer power. So like, of course,
636
00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:54.529
they want to like exactly put meta glasses on Kylie
637
00:32:54.549 --> 00:32:57.990
Jenner and like put flock and beauty stores and like
638
00:32:58.049 --> 00:32:59.750
try and make us think that all of this is
639
00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:02.009
like normal and chic and that. We'll be willing to
640
00:33:02.029 --> 00:33:03.829
give up our privacy as long as it comes with
641
00:33:03.849 --> 00:33:07.569
like a fabulous matte lipstick. And like the answer is no.
642
00:33:08.089 --> 00:33:08.630
We don't.
643
00:33:09.170 --> 00:33:11.319
We do not have to choose between our rights of
644
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.039
privacy and a fabulous matte lipstick.
645
00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:16.160
We can have both. God damn it.
646
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.960
That is the message of the day. OK, so I
647
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.500
don't want to keep you too long, but I do
648
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:24.920
want to ask like for people who are listening to
649
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.660
this and they're freaking out, like what what are you
650
00:33:27.700 --> 00:33:29.769
telling them is like the number one thing they can
651
00:33:29.789 --> 00:33:30.349
do to fight back?
652
00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:30.940
Yes.
653
00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:33.519
Well, first of all, don't totally freak out. I'm saying
654
00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.039
that as someone who freaks out a lot, like professionally.
655
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:40.099
But there's an amazing movement happening. You are already part
656
00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:43.700
of it by caring about this and engaging with this topic, period.
657
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:50.339
You can go to weareultraviolet.org. Our campaign, our petition targeting
658
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.359
Ulta is front and center on that homepage right now.
659
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:57.200
Sign the petition, share it with friends. We have some
660
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:01.380
toolkits also, social media toolkits for commenting. But really, my
661
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.730
biggest ask would just be sign the petition and then
662
00:34:03.769 --> 00:34:08.329
get on social media on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, on all
663
00:34:08.389 --> 00:34:11.409
of Ulta's most recent posts and just comment like, mass
664
00:34:11.429 --> 00:34:14.710
surveillance isn't pretty like we don't want this in these
665
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:18.309
stores women customers say no I know it sounds really
666
00:34:18.389 --> 00:34:21.300
trite but like social media is really like the stomping
667
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.440
ground for for the beauty industry and like they absolutely
668
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.760
care about what's being posted there and we've especially been
669
00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:29.980
trying to post more on LinkedIn especially on Keisha Steelman
670
00:34:30.340 --> 00:34:35.119
woman uh Ulta CEO in this case who um is
671
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.760
continuing to ignore us, trying to post, like, being like,
672
00:34:37.909 --> 00:34:41.409
you're at a women's run conference. Like, why are you
673
00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:43.750
censoring and ignoring the women who are calling on you
674
00:34:43.789 --> 00:34:46.489
for answers about your relationship with Block? Which is something
675
00:34:46.510 --> 00:34:48.789
they've been doing. They've been deleting comments, which is why
676
00:34:48.849 --> 00:34:53.239
it's even more important to keep commenting. Keep sharing, have
677
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:56.579
conversations about it. And there's a whole bunch of other
678
00:34:56.940 --> 00:34:59.730
campaigns going on right now, too. We have one also
679
00:34:59.769 --> 00:35:02.590
targeting Lowe's. You'll see that on our homepage, too. And
680
00:35:02.630 --> 00:35:04.750
there's local fights you can get involved with as well.
681
00:35:04.789 --> 00:35:08.780
Check out those maps. that I mentioned earlier, and then
682
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:11.280
Newsweek to see where those fights are happening. Basically, there's
683
00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:14.820
like fights happening everywhere, probably really close to you, if
684
00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:17.099
not in the exact city or town that you're in.
685
00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:20.500
And you can absolutely get engaged. That's where I'd say
686
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:22.599
most of the energy is right now. And where most
687
00:35:22.619 --> 00:35:25.599
of the successes have been is cutting those local contracts
688
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:28.639
with Flock. So sign the petition, comment on social media,
689
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:29.519
join a local fight.
690
00:35:29.659 --> 00:35:32.409
Love that. Thank you so much, Jenna. We will make
691
00:35:32.449 --> 00:35:35.260
sure to put all of those links in the show
692
00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:39.380
notes for folks and also links to learn more about Ultraviolet.
693
00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:42.239
I really appreciate you taking the time out today to
694
00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:45.050
chat with us. It's been really, really great to hear
695
00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:45.389
from you.
696
00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:46.570
Likewise.
697
00:35:46.670 --> 00:35:50.170
Thank you so much for taking interest in this topic
698
00:35:50.250 --> 00:35:53.860
and bringing it to your people. I'm very, very honored
699
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:54.900
and very grateful
700
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:55.920
To get to share this.