Michael Jones: Welcome to the Developing Experts Podcast, a show to help recruiters at every stage of their career to sharpen their skills, think more commercially, and ultimately become more effective and more credible. This podcast is all about real conversations with experienced recruiters, agency leaders, business owners, and high performers from all across the industry, unpacking what actually drives long-term success in recruitment. And I'm your host, Michael Jones, recruitment trainer. On today's podcast, I'm excited to be speaking with a million dollar biller, many times over, Mr. Andy Mansori from Launch Recruitment in Sydney, who's here today to share his secrets of success as well as his top tips on how to become a top biller. Andy, welcome and thanks for joining us and giving us some of your very, very valuable time.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you, Michael, for that opportunity, I appreciate it.
Michael Jones: My pleasure. Thanks for dialing in. So, Andy, tell us a bit about your role, who you work for, and what you recruit for.
Andy Mansoori: Michael, so it's been over ten years now I've been in the industry right now and I worked for launch recruitment. I started as a rookie consultant and after ten years today I'm a national portfolio director and majorly recruiting within the telecommunications sector all over Australia and New Zealand.
Michael Jones: Tell us a bit more about what Launch do.
Andy Mansoori: So Launch is a boutique recruitment company where they started specializing within the telecommunication industry and through telecommunication they also moved into technology and IT.
Michael Jones: And what was your background before recruitment? What were you doing beforehand?
Andy Mansoori: so before recruitment I used to run my own business. So I was part of an industry called network marketing and I was very passionate. I used to travel to Asia, many places in Australia and even New Zealand, promoting different unique products, building a team, and that was something I was really passionate about. great journey for nearly six years before I started recruiting.
Michael Jones: Amazing. And what got you into recruitment? Why did you decide to become a recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, I think I always wanted to do something which is a business within a business. So I always had
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: this attitude in my life. it's always good to be your own boss. And you know, running your own business for six years, it was great. But then I came across an industry recruitment because I had studied human resource management from Wollongong University. So I loved the concept of people, HR, and I really wanted to. apply that but I never saw myself working in a nine to five, just a normal corporate world. So when I came across this lovely industry where it was a business, but within a business, so I I can basically build my own client base and and you know, as I say, the sky is the limit. You start from nothing and then you just grow exponentially. And that's what really inspired me to get involved in this industry.
Michael Jones: Yeah, that's a great way of describing it. A as a recruiter, you are running your own business within a business and you have that freedom and autonomy to work with particular clients, fill particular jobs.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Absolutely. And and and and that's what really resonated with me and hence why you know, ten years now in the industry. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Congrats. And you said that you started at launch as a trainee. So how did you get into recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: I think just before I started recruitment, it was nearly three months that I wanted to try telemarketing. I I love challenging myself. There's one thing that my dad always taught me is focus on growth and self-development and there's and and I realized okay, the time has come for me to to face a lot of rejections. So I went and started telemarketing
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: and this is nonstop calling where we were selling real estate. so four hours of calling nonstop. average you're looking
Michael Jones: Well
Andy Mansoori: at anywhere between hundred calls an hour and ninety nine percent as you're well aware, is you get a no as an answer. and
Michael Jones: Yep.
Andy Mansoori: and which was great, you know. So that really helped me to move on past that objection. you everyone saying no and getting that confidence and obviously being in sales prior to that for six years, that really helped me to to have a Good clarity and and then I started this lovely industry of recruitment. And one thing I always tell everyone is the the beauty of recruitment is you know, as long as the values and skills you work on, it's transferable. No, if you're working in telemarketing,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: you're working in sales, you're working in whatever industry, you just work on your skills, you can transfer that in recruitment. And and once you become passionate about a niche area that you're recruiting, the sky is the limit.
Michael Jones: Hundred percent, yeah, totally agree. So was launch advertising for traineeships? Is that how you started working for them?
Andy Mansoori: Yeah y back then so I did apply for many opportunities and there was a Rec to Rec who I worked with and I think I highly recommend working with Rec to Rex because they tend to really work on your behalf and he he represented me to few organizations and I wanted to work with a company which is not that big but also average of around forty to fifty consultants which will help me to grow. And the opportunity
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: which I got because I started later in my career in my late twenties. it wasn't a trainee trainee role. It was like directly, here you go, you're a consultant, get the ball rolling, and and that's it. And it
Michael Jones: Right.
Andy Mansoori: yeah, and you'll be surprised. this is something I tell everyone, it took me nearly four months to get my first placement. And my yeah, my
Michael Jones: Wow, really? Yep.
Andy Mansoori: first year I had, if not only four or five placements. but I'm really grateful that having the right leadership, the right support system is very important. I had really good people in my life when I started and they were very supportive. They had that patience and all I focused on was yes, I have the values through my sales and telemarketing background. Now how can I transfer that to this world of recruitment? So I had to understand
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: what niche would am I passionate about? Is it IT, is it telco, and then transfer those skills into that.
Michael Jones: And that's so interesting to hear that it took four months to make your first placement. And that that's not completely uncommon, by the way. but there is definitely a pressure to perform or bill or make placements as soon as possible. And that's the individual putting that pressure on themselves, but sometimes the managers expecting immediate results. Now, if you've
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: if you've started on a temp desk or a a high volume junior perm desk, you you could potentially make a placement quite quickly, but there are people who do take three, four, six months before they they place someone. Isn't it interesting? Because another manager who was impatient could have said, Andy's not made a placement. I don't think he's getting it. He's out the door and and then look at what they would have lost.
Andy Mansoori: absolutely. I yeah I 100% agree. I always relate to this story where I learned in one of my leadership events where it's about the bamboo seed, where you when you plant this bamboo seed, usually it takes average of three to four years for that seed to even grow to an extent where you see results. and you know having the right structure, the right support system is so important in your journey. And as long as you have the right ethics and the right values, I think anything is possible.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. How how did you feel not making those placements straight away? Were you under a bit of pressure yourself around that?
Andy Mansoori: I think one thing I'm really grateful of s being in sales before that that I've never compared myself with anyone. So I looked at my journey as my own computation is myself. so and I was not someone who was looking for quick wins. I was someone f
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: where I wanted to build my roots, build the foundation. And if if ever I felt that the you know the support system, the management of everyone we're not happy, I would then look for another opportunity. But I'm again grateful that they all had the patience and I was focusing on building my roots and not comparing myself with my peers or with
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: anyone else, how many placements they do or what they do. It was more of me understanding the industry,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: the niche, and and I knew, like the bamboo seed story, that you know it will take two, three, four years, but once I'm in, once the roots are strong. then the fruits will be there. So yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. And I think it is so important to be patient and accept that, you know, with something like recruitment, it's going to take 12 months before you really understand what you're doing. And it's going to take time before you see the results of your hard work. So you've got to be patient, you've got to be persistent, you've got to be consistent.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: yeah, that's that's a great example. How how did you find the journey of learning? how to do recruitment and be a recruiter in that first year.
Andy Mansoori: I think again it goes back to the last five, six years before recruitment, because I had really invested in self-development from sales to communication to just the concept of understanding rejection. the principle of and also I'd studied human resource management, so I knew the concept of interviewing and so on. So the principle of recruitment, it just took me I think just a month or max two months to understand okay, this is how a CRM works, what you do. But th that those previous value systems that I had learned really was quite transferable in my life to help me grow within that first one, two, three years. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. Yeah, the your background in in sales and your HR degree, you you come into the industry with a really good foundation to work on. Did you find it different selling people as opposed to what you had sold previously?
Andy Mansoori: not at all. I think sales is sales because the most important principle of sales is I think being honest. The moment you're honest, the moment you're transparent and and once you're passionate about something, people can feel it. I was very passionate about the business I did for six years and you know, we are human beings at the end of the day. I tell everyone, you know, you might you might think you can lie or you can outplay someone, but Trust me, everyone has the same intellectual and they will know and they can feel it. So I think yeah, the the the the true journey of success, if you could say, would be just that being transparent, being honest and and genuinely being yourself, which is which then trans translates to that passion of doing what you're doing.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I agree. Sales is all about relationships and doing it with integrity and being passionate about what you're selling and clearly you're very passionate about what you what you do.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you.
Michael Jones: were there ever any times during that first year where you thought, don't know if I can do this or this is harder than I thought it was going to be, or was it all smooth sailing?
Andy Mansoori: I it it is difficult. I'm not gonna lie. this is one of the most difficult industries ever, but also it is one of the most rewarding industries.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: So for me, I have this mindset. you know, I've been told many times it's like a dog with a bone. You know, once they I see it as
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: an opportunity, I would not give away that bone away. And and it's it's about seeing the light in the end of the tunnel and just telling yourself, okay, it is difficult. Have some
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andy Mansoori: patience, have the right structure, support system. But more important, yeah, it's good to have the structures, but it all comes down to you. So
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: in the the last 10 10 years there was great support and support system and structure. But if it wasn't for me to genuinely have that self-drive, the hunger, I would not be even 10% of where I am. So I think if to really grow in this industry and more than financial success, I think genuinely changing lives. I see this
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: industry as where you really changing lives. You really need to have that tenacity within you and that hunger and and that attitude of it's not just all about the money, it's just we are really out there. making a difference. and that's why I sometimes say
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: mad. This industry is is mad. You're really making a difference. You're making a difference in people's life. You know, you're
Michael Jones: I love that. Yes.
Andy Mansoori: genuinely changing lives. You know, in the last 10 years people who I got them job opportunities as project engineers are now directors. Their lives are changed. They're now my clients or and and so it's that's why I again going back to your question, yes, it is difficult. It's not a walk in the park, but that's why it's so important to be passionate. to genuinely believe that you are here for the long run and you're here because it's not all about the money. It's more than that.
Michael Jones: And and what is it that you enjoy the most about your role?
Andy Mansoori: Human connection, changing people's life. Seeing when people like I I was invited for a presentation at the university last year and one of my sharing sessions was I highly emphasized the importance of networking, but more importantly connecting with the right people on LinkedIn. last week one of the students in an event raised her hand and she mentioned, Andy, since your session I had twenty people on my LinkedIn, but in just one year I have three thousand people on my LinkedIn. But more importantly, I've had six interviews, one offer. And if it wasn't f for you sharing that insights of consistent connection and networking, and again, so this is beautiful. You know, this seeing the the fruits of not only through your career, the financial benefits, but also seeing genuinely graduates or people's life being changed is really rewarding. And as as humans, you know, we We love that. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Yeah, it it is a very rewarding job, isn't it? And we do make a difference.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: okay, well we've talked about making an impact and and and and helping people is a really big driver and and source of enjoyment for you. It's not all about the money, but but let's talk about the money because you are your company's top billet nationally, I understand. And is that six years in a row that you've taken out that title?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, I'm grateful to say it's been six years and it's it's it's been a humbling great journey. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Congratulations. How does it feel to be the top biller in your company?
Andy Mansoori: I I think it it feels great, but again, more importantly, seeing genuinely helping people get opportunities, seeing changing their life has is much more rewarding. I mean it's it's great, you know, you you get awarded once, twice, three times, but after a while it's it's more than that. And and I'm really grateful. Yes, the last six years has been really rewarding nationally being the top performance, but but more importantly it's it's all about the impact that Which is created by
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: by helping up, yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. That's a lot of companies helped, that's a lot of candidates supported. That's a big impact that you've had there. So yeah, a lot of people very grateful to you for your assistance, I'm sure. So so what what goes into being a million dollar biller? How how how do you achieve those sorts of results?
Andy Mansoori: I think the most important thing I always tell people is you have to be passionate in what you're doing. You cannot be working or doing something for the sake of nine to five. I have never since 10 years in my journey or prior to that looked at my profession as a clock in, clock out. It is something where you that's why I mentioned at the beginning, it's your own business. It's a business within a business with that attitude. passion. your true love for the industry or something will will really that's the starting point. And then of course with passion comes discipline. with discipline comes being persistent, being consistent, not giving up, and most important, having patience. You know, i there will be months where because the beauty of it the recruitment industry, you do whatever you can, but still it's not in your hand. You know it
Michael Jones: That's right.
Andy Mansoori: comes down to the candidate going out there, giving their best. And that's why it's important to consistently focusing on training and helping the candidates who go out there for an interview and making sure it's not just a numbers game. Okay, let me flick 10 CVs. Let me know I genuinely connect, catch up with them, understand how I can help them grow. And and and once they get a job, I always see them as not only a placement, but someone where I can build a long-term relationship. Where most of my Placements now are good friends, we connect and so again, going back to your question, the the the true essence of, being successful a million dollar biller is passion, persistent, consistent, but more importantly, having patience and just just being disciplined in doing the basics every single day and just knowing that it's yes, it's good to have the right support system, the structure, but it's all up to you.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. And there's two things in particular you mentioned that I'd love to explore with you. The first one being the passion that you need to be successful, and then the the discipline you mentioned as well. But with the passion piece, how important is it for you to be passionate about the sector or the space that you're in?
Andy Mansoori: I think that that is one of the most important pillars and when I started I started in a complete different industry. I started within IT, which I really like, but then that is where I think it's highly important to be flexible and if you're not passionate about the sector to to change that. You know, to to look at what something which you end up loving. and you might ask, Okay, how how would I know if I like it's about trying and and all right, let me try data or let me try AI, let me try cybersecurity or something and then Once you try attend events, I used to attend a lot of events and not to get leads, but to really understand the industry, to understand
Michael Jones: Hmm.
Andy Mansoori: where they're coming from, to speak their language. And that's and once you understand where they're coming from, then you're no more a recruiter, you are a part of them. You bec that then that's where passion
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: you automatically become quite passionate and it that's how passion grows. Yeah.
Michael Jones: It's interesting. So when I first started in recruitment, I was hired to do accountancy in finance. I wasn't given a choice. It wasn't a deliberate decision on my part to become a finance recruiter. I mean, I almost failed maths at school. I am not from a finance background.
Andy Mansoori: Wow. Wow.
Michael Jones: I don't I can't do maths. And
Andy Mansoori: Amazing.
Michael Jones: and whilst I was very passionate about recruitment and making a difference and impacting on people. I wasn't passionate about the world of accounting finance. And I
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: think that's why I didn't stay in recruitment as a recruiter for more than four years. I think if I was in a space that I was more interested and passionate about, I I potentially would have stayed recruiting for longer. So what you're saying is it may not be the right fit for you. Maybe you might want to look at changing or transferring, or
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: maybe even coming into the industry, having an idea of well, what are you interested in and maybe a rectorate can help you make those introductions perhaps. Sometimes we don't always get to choose which particular desks we go on, but yeah, that's that's something that is quite important to develop that passion and interest. you also talked about the importance of hard work and and and being consistent. So what are some of the the non negotiables that you do that helps you be successful as a recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Think one of the most important things is I try to connect with at least three people a day. And and that comes down to not only connecting through LinkedIn but also trying to meet people and build that relationship. it it this industry is not all about sitting behind your desk and just typing or just and you really need to go out, meet people, connect, understand them, and Build that long term relationship where that is I think one of the most important pillars. And of course the rest, proper interview skill questionnaires and you know calling and helping the candidates with the right in structure, that is all important. But meeting people face to face, connecting, I think is one of the most important pillars in this industry.
Michael Jones: I agree. And it's interesting because we've shifted away from that in many places. You know, post
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: COVID, a lot of people are still only interacting with candidates and clients virtually or via text message. And even things like face to face interviews seem not to be the norm as much as they were before. What what what are your feelings about that?
Andy Mansoori: I absolutely I agree. you know the the COVID days of just being online or through Zoom. it's it's great, but you that's why whenever I try to arrange interviews, I try to have it face to face because you really understand body language, energy, connection a lot more through face-to-face than just a Zoom catch-up or a Teams catch up.
Michael Jones: Hmm. And in the in in in the scenario of a a client, let's say for example, someone you're trying to win work from or build a relationship with, where there is some pushback around the need to meet in person, how do you typically tackle that?
Andy Mansoori: I think that's something where from my perspective I always if someone says no, great, that's fine. it reminds me of my telemarketing days. would I call them again? No. But also I would look at different I avenues. maybe would there be someone who I know who knows that person? So trying to create a connection to that person or if there's an event which is of really good value, seeing, okay, maybe I can invite this person to that event. Or or potentially offering some it's just all comes down to offering something of value which creates that connection. But also I've realized many people when we go out, we just want a job. I need a job. I've never looked at meeting clients for the concept of picking up a job. For me it's all about Everything and anything except a job. And and then at the
Michael Jones: Mm, uh-huh.
Andy Mansoori: at the end of the call, you're like, all right, I've got something. Okay, cool, sure. Let me, how can I help you? because as I mentioned, I've always in life seen you know when it comes to business, work, the long-term goal. And if if you're here for a long-term result with anyone, the whole intent is the trust, the sincerity, and the relationship and Allowing them to talk and connect with you, rather than just quickly catching up, okay, do you have a job? Because there's so many recruiters out there, and if you really want to stand out, you want to make the other person feel good. And the only way you can make someone feel good is by allowing them to talk more and you being the listener, and we recruiters we love to talk. You know, is I I I as
Michael Jones: We do.
Andy Mansoori: you can see I'm just talking nonstop, but because but i it has to be a situation where ninety percent of the talk needs to be by them, ten percent by you. And I can promise you, not the first meeting, by the third or fourth meeting, there'll be a lot of opportunities. So it's again the patience, the long being in this in the long journey. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, and you're talking about adding value and prioritizing a relationship over a transaction, aren't you?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, absolutely.
Michael Jones: And in your opinion, what's the difference between, a recruiter that's billing half a mil and a recruiter that's billing a mil? What what what is the difference that takes you to that next level?
Andy Mansoori: I'll just give my example. just the only difference is complacency. Sometimes we we end up being in this world where we think we're doing good and we're happy. But that is where it's so important to always you know question yourself and say, Can I do better? Is there room for improvement? But there would be s opportun moments where you're like, you know, that's it, you know, I'm happy with half a million. That's all I can do and that's great. If that's who you are,
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm.
Andy Mansoori: amazing. But for me, I've always believed in growth. Again, if you ask me, Andy, do you see yourself building two, three million? again for I would question that because I believe in balance. You know,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: very important to have a balance. Now I I work out, family is very important for me, religion's important, and everything's important. And I can't just yes, I can burn all the bridges and build two million,
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: but on on what pay outcome. So that's why to answer your question again. The difference with half a million, a million, for me, I think it's complacency, but also you have to be honest to yourself and say, is my life balanced enough? And if your life if you can still improve and grow and and reach to that million, great. if yeah if there's opportunity for you to grow from a million to two million without burning bridges and without yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And and it sounds like what you're saying there is it's looking for those efficiencies. How can I bill more by working more efficiently, working smarter, being more strategic?
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So what would be some strategies or tips that you might have for someone about how they can work more strategically or smarter to start to increase their their billings?
Andy Mansoori: I think one ki one of two ways which I see is when when you start placing contractors, really treat them well, connect with them quite often. They will share a lot of opportunities with you. that is very important. even permanent placements, I tend to catch up with them, take them out for lunch, drinks. they are out there. within your sector, they know a lot. You're just within a certain vertical. So it's h again going back to connecting and and the beauty is through the people who you've placed you will meet a lot of opportun you'll come across a lot of opportunities which will open a lot of doors. So that's that's something I would recommend. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So it sounds like you're a big advocate for aftercare and following up with your contractors and you've already talked
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Michael Jones: before about the connection with people. That's where
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you get the intel to get more opportunities or Yeah,
Andy Mansoori: Yes.
Michael Jones: okay. And I understand you run both a contract and a perm desk. Is that right?
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: How do you balance the two? Because aren't they quite different to run?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, they're really different. I think if you ask me when I started to do both, I would fail. I think this industry it's very important to focus on one either contracting or permanent. But after five, six years being in a similar in in one vertical, knowing your market quite well, then you can work on both contracting and permanent. Contracting is all about speed, it's all about knowing your market really well. Permanent is where the true headhunting of working with passive candidates and and really spending good quality time interviewing them, understanding you know, it's not all about just ticking the boxes. It's you go a lot more in detail. So again, I'm I'm grateful that I started this after my fifth, sixth year, but the first four or five years, if I had a choice, I started only in within my contracting desk and then I moved into permanent after a few years.
Michael Jones: So would you say that they are the key skills or qualities that make a good contract recruiter versus a good perm recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, absolutely. A good contract recruiter. It's all about speed, about quality, about knowing your market, but moiing your market really well. because contracting the turnaround should be within forty-eight hours. So for 48 hours you're you're working on an opportunity, you're maybe competing with four other agencies. So you really need to know your market, your niche, your or maybe even have a talent pool of candidates where instantly you can you quickly cover them and then can represent them. Whereas permanent is where Then you start building a talent pool of can even though you have a talent pool, that's great. But then you really need to look at pipelining and understanding not only the technical attributes, but also the the personal attributes and a lot more. So again, permanent will be a gradual process where you really go in detail because contracting could be six months a year and all they need is the right skill sets and and get
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: the person going.
Michael Jones: So in your opinion is one more challenging than the other, cot contracting versus perm recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: No, I think they're the same. Fifty fifty. I think they
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: different skill sets for each, one one is speed, understanding your market, one is patient and again knowing going in detail and yeah, so they both are quite similar depending on which sector you're working on, yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And as you say, both have their own challenges and risks. I guess if we think about permanent recruitment, the risks there would be your counter offers. That would be a big one that a lot
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: of people would face. What what are some of the things you do to minimize that risk?
Andy Mansoori: Since day one, when I started interviewing candidates, it's like, are you out there in the market? Are you actively interviewing? and again, it comes down to genuinely when you build that true when you see a candidate who ticks all the boxes, building that true relationship with them where they're open and honest and transparent with you and and and consistently closing them, closing the candidates and say, Okay, if you get offered, what happens if there's a counter offer? or what if you get another opportunity somewhere else? Is just salary your motivation or are is is it the culture? Are you not what's the reason? Why do you want to leave your current organization? So for me, it's never about a placement, a quick win, because a quick win could maybe he might lose his job within that grace period and then you have to find a replacement. So yeah, you gotta focus a lot more on really closing and understanding. their motivation, the driving factors why they want to leave their role. Because they might be leaving a permanent role for a contracting. That's I really have to understand why. what's the reason behind it? And and again, when you ask someone two, three, four times, they will be honest with you. And that's where it's important to before I represent, I make sure I speak with them at least three times to so and I must admit, you know, My ratio would be out of like hundred percent, easy at this ninety five percent. I've never had a someone to drop out. it's only been like five percent where you know they they it still ended up accepting the counter offer of this, which is normal. We are humans, you know, someone gets offered thirty, forty thousand dollars more and no matter how much you've pre close them, y you can't you can't stop
Michael Jones: That's right.
Andy Mansoori: that. But yeah. We do we can do what we can, whatever is in our control.
Michael Jones: That's right. We only have so much control and influence. But what you're saying is ask the question early on, revisit it often, explore all the possibilities, don't leave things open to chance.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Jones: Okay. And given that you've been recruiting in your space for 10 years, I imagine the business development you have to do today looks very different to what you had to do at the start. What what what does your business development activity look like these days?
Andy Mansoori: I think these days is more business development will be more of whoever I know. the the beauty is, you know, when again going back to the bamboo seed, when you've planted that seed and after nearly ten, twelve years, the f the fruits will leverage and they will grow. So every person who I've worked with the the last ten years or the relationship I've had now, they tend to come to connect with me and say, Andy, you've got an opportunity and and that's where, you know, you reach to that level where you can then decide is it worth helping them? Are they paying enough? is the is the culture the right fit? Or so but going back to your question, business development, absolutely yes. I still business develop. If I see an opportunity in a new sector, a new industry, I do call them and I try to connect, but not to that extent where I started because of
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: that leverage that I've built.
Michael Jones: Yeah, you have your client base, you have your relationships, people know you and come to you as opposed to you having to go hunt. Hmm.
Andy Mansoori: Yep. Yep.
Michael Jones: So is it more, would you say, relationship management, account management focused these days?
Andy Mansoori: you could say seventy percent. You still need to focus thirty percent on new business because then again if you just do relationship and account management, it is a slightly being complacent and complacency is a cancer in this business because that's when things can fall through. so it's always important to look for opportunities out there which is outside your existing client base, which you are always growing.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Very risky to put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. Okay.
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: Well, in terms of the the final question before we go into our quick fire round, Andy, for for someone who's listening to the podcast who wants to be a top performer, a top biller, a million dollar biller, what would your main advice be to them?
Andy Mansoori: think number one, be honest to yourself that you really love what you do. And once you know that you what you're doing is you really love and it's not just all about the salary or the base, then then you start automatically being passionate. By being passionate, you start focusing on growth, self-development. It's really important. It's not all about business development, it's not all about Placements, it's all about focusing on what area can I grow. So if there's one thing I really would share is make yourself accountable and just be honest to yourself. What is one area? Is it sales? Is it communication? Is it follow-up? Is this business development? Speak with your manager or just you yourself invest in yourself and just go out and focus on one skill which you can become better. And every single time you become better at one skill, Trust me, in twelve to twenty four months you're gonna see a huge difference, not only in your business world, which is in recruitment, but also in your personal life. So it's very important. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. No, I completely agree with that. Thank you. All right, Andy. Well, got a couple of quick fire questions for you where we'd love to get to know in a bit more detail. what has been your proudest recruitment career moment to date?
Andy Mansoori: I think my proudest was from my f the the first four months having no placement to the sixth year billing a million and being grateful to do that multiple times. and more importantly, that you know, having the highest number of placements in nationally. that that was something I I'm always grateful that I started with nothing with you know and and to to reach to that level I'm really grateful and proud. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Congratulations.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you.
Michael Jones: What's one thing you'd like to change about the recruitment industry?
Andy Mansoori: I think don't treat it as just a transaction. I think it's we are all here humans and we are here to genuinely connect and be proud of everyone's achievement and appreciate growth and and just just be supportive. And you know, we are in an industry which is already difficult. AI will never take over our industry, no matter what everyone says, we are in a world of connection. and relationship and we need to genuinely support and be caring and be there for each other.
Michael Jones: Completely agree. What's the biggest myth or misconception about recruitment that you would want to bust?
Andy Mansoori: Biggest misconception. I think
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: the biggest misconception about recruitment is where candidates out there think that recruiters are making their life difficult. Or we I I completely disagree. And it's very important I tell each candidate out there, when you connect with recruiters, build that again relationship, understand that yes, they're quite busy, but when you want to connect with them, know that their interest is for you to get an opportunity. So the the biggest myth is, you that recruiters only work with specific type of candidates or no, we are here to help anyone and everyone. And if you think you're the right fit, connect, show the value you can bring in and and we genuinely are here to help you.
Michael Jones: Hmm, we are. what is one habit that you believe all recruiters should develop?
Andy Mansoori: One habit always be open to learning new things, growth, self-development. there is never an end. Just because of you're building half a million, a million, or whatever, that doesn't mean you know it all. Humility is very important and having an open mind that any I I I have this attitude. I I sometimes even learn from rookies. I I try to listen to their calls, I try to understand where they're coming from. Everyone has some value to bring in. It's so important to be open. and and just learn and that that will really help you grow.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. What's the most underrated skill in recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: Underrated skill in recruitment is a skill. an an underrated skill that's a that's a really tough one because a lot of skills we could look
Michael Jones: Something that people should focus on more or pay attention to more or use more, let's say.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, I I I would say follow up. Very important. I realized as humans we unconsciously hate rejection. So one follow up and that's it. We quickly move on to the next. No, it's all having that attitude of not giving up and usually the sales cycle could be after the six, seven follow up. So being making sure that
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: there's six, seven different touch points and and then you see the outcome.
Michael Jones: Yes. Be persistent, stick with it,
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: try again, try something different. Yeah,
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: great. Last two questions. But what is the best career advice you've ever received?
Andy Mansoori: And the best career advice I've ever received was love what you do, be passionate and there's there's a there's I have it in my phone, it says if it is to be, it is up to me. So in life, whatever it is, if it is to be, it's it's not your manager, it's not anyone else, it's you. and and you have the capacity, the the potential to do whatever you want in this industry or in life. It's just and if you're not getting the right support structure, then you gotta question, am I in the right place? You know, if you if you and and do it yourself. And that's what it is but if it is to be it's up to me. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Work hard, put in the effort, ask for help, do the self-learning, all
Andy Mansoori: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Jones: those things. And what are your future career goals and aspirations?
Andy Mansoori: I think genuinely enjoying this journey, which is what I'm doing right now, and and helping people get opportunities within different sectors. I could say it I know it sounds but just changing lives and and just that is something I'm really passionate about connecting with people and and really enjoy this beautiful journey of I have this skill, I've learned an opportunity and and just and continue doing it as much as I can to to really help as many people out there to to grow in their career.
Michael Jones: I love that. And I love the fact, Andy, that yes, you're you're incredibly successful. You're a top performer, a million-dollar biller many times over, yet you still remember this job is about helping people. You have a real passion for connecting with others. And it seems like a real focus on quality connections. And I think that's that's the ingredients to success, isn't it? That's what
Andy Mansoori: Yes.
Michael Jones: This industry's all about and that's what people respond to.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. And and just to add on having the right support struct system. You know, you know, the when you have the right culture and the right management who supports you, you know,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: I've been grateful. I've had three, four different managers in my life who I never called them my manager. They were more like a mentor to me. They guided me, they helped me, you know, currently and previously. And there's a lot of names, but I'll just mention every single one who's come in my life who's really helped. Me and that's why it's so important when you're working with the right right manager, it's gonna make a huge difference. But if you're working with someone whose only focus is numbers and not generally help you to grow and there's no proper support system structure, the you're that there's gonna be a hi a huge challenge, Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Well, the fact that you've worked for for launch recruitment for ten years says a lot about launches culture and the support you've had there. So big shout out to everybody at Launch Recruitment.
Andy Mansoori: Yes, thank you. Absolutely.
Michael Jones: Well, Andy, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us on the podcast. You've given some great advice, lots that we can learn. So thank you very, very kindly.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you for the invite. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you, Michael, for that opportunity, I appreciate it.
Michael Jones: My pleasure. Thanks for dialing in. So, Andy, tell us a bit about your role, who you work for, and what you recruit for.
Andy Mansoori: Michael, so it's been over ten years now I've been in the industry right now and I worked for launch recruitment. I started as a rookie consultant and after ten years today I'm a national portfolio director and majorly recruiting within the telecommunications sector all over Australia and New Zealand.
Michael Jones: Tell us a bit more about what Launch do.
Andy Mansoori: So Launch is a boutique recruitment company where they started specializing within the telecommunication industry and through telecommunication they also moved into technology and IT.
Michael Jones: And what was your background before recruitment? What were you doing beforehand?
Andy Mansoori: so before recruitment I used to run my own business. So I was part of an industry called network marketing and I was very passionate. I used to travel to Asia, many places in Australia and even New Zealand, promoting different unique products, building a team, and that was something I was really passionate about. great journey for nearly six years before I started recruiting.
Michael Jones: Amazing. And what got you into recruitment? Why did you decide to become a recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, I think I always wanted to do something which is a business within a business. So I always had
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: this attitude in my life. it's always good to be your own boss. And you know, running your own business for six years, it was great. But then I came across an industry recruitment because I had studied human resource management from Wollongong University. So I loved the concept of people, HR, and I really wanted to. apply that but I never saw myself working in a nine to five, just a normal corporate world. So when I came across this lovely industry where it was a business, but within a business, so I I can basically build my own client base and and you know, as I say, the sky is the limit. You start from nothing and then you just grow exponentially. And that's what really inspired me to get involved in this industry.
Michael Jones: Yeah, that's a great way of describing it. A as a recruiter, you are running your own business within a business and you have that freedom and autonomy to work with particular clients, fill particular jobs.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Absolutely. And and and and that's what really resonated with me and hence why you know, ten years now in the industry. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Congrats. And you said that you started at launch as a trainee. So how did you get into recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: I think just before I started recruitment, it was nearly three months that I wanted to try telemarketing. I I love challenging myself. There's one thing that my dad always taught me is focus on growth and self-development and there's and and I realized okay, the time has come for me to to face a lot of rejections. So I went and started telemarketing
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: and this is nonstop calling where we were selling real estate. so four hours of calling nonstop. average you're looking
Michael Jones: Well
Andy Mansoori: at anywhere between hundred calls an hour and ninety nine percent as you're well aware, is you get a no as an answer. and
Michael Jones: Yep.
Andy Mansoori: and which was great, you know. So that really helped me to move on past that objection. you everyone saying no and getting that confidence and obviously being in sales prior to that for six years, that really helped me to to have a Good clarity and and then I started this lovely industry of recruitment. And one thing I always tell everyone is the the beauty of recruitment is you know, as long as the values and skills you work on, it's transferable. No, if you're working in telemarketing,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: you're working in sales, you're working in whatever industry, you just work on your skills, you can transfer that in recruitment. And and once you become passionate about a niche area that you're recruiting, the sky is the limit.
Michael Jones: Hundred percent, yeah, totally agree. So was launch advertising for traineeships? Is that how you started working for them?
Andy Mansoori: Yeah y back then so I did apply for many opportunities and there was a Rec to Rec who I worked with and I think I highly recommend working with Rec to Rex because they tend to really work on your behalf and he he represented me to few organizations and I wanted to work with a company which is not that big but also average of around forty to fifty consultants which will help me to grow. And the opportunity
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: which I got because I started later in my career in my late twenties. it wasn't a trainee trainee role. It was like directly, here you go, you're a consultant, get the ball rolling, and and that's it. And it
Michael Jones: Right.
Andy Mansoori: yeah, and you'll be surprised. this is something I tell everyone, it took me nearly four months to get my first placement. And my yeah, my
Michael Jones: Wow, really? Yep.
Andy Mansoori: first year I had, if not only four or five placements. but I'm really grateful that having the right leadership, the right support system is very important. I had really good people in my life when I started and they were very supportive. They had that patience and all I focused on was yes, I have the values through my sales and telemarketing background. Now how can I transfer that to this world of recruitment? So I had to understand
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: what niche would am I passionate about? Is it IT, is it telco, and then transfer those skills into that.
Michael Jones: And that's so interesting to hear that it took four months to make your first placement. And that that's not completely uncommon, by the way. but there is definitely a pressure to perform or bill or make placements as soon as possible. And that's the individual putting that pressure on themselves, but sometimes the managers expecting immediate results. Now, if you've
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: if you've started on a temp desk or a a high volume junior perm desk, you you could potentially make a placement quite quickly, but there are people who do take three, four, six months before they they place someone. Isn't it interesting? Because another manager who was impatient could have said, Andy's not made a placement. I don't think he's getting it. He's out the door and and then look at what they would have lost.
Andy Mansoori: absolutely. I yeah I 100% agree. I always relate to this story where I learned in one of my leadership events where it's about the bamboo seed, where you when you plant this bamboo seed, usually it takes average of three to four years for that seed to even grow to an extent where you see results. and you know having the right structure, the right support system is so important in your journey. And as long as you have the right ethics and the right values, I think anything is possible.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. How how did you feel not making those placements straight away? Were you under a bit of pressure yourself around that?
Andy Mansoori: I think one thing I'm really grateful of s being in sales before that that I've never compared myself with anyone. So I looked at my journey as my own computation is myself. so and I was not someone who was looking for quick wins. I was someone f
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: where I wanted to build my roots, build the foundation. And if if ever I felt that the you know the support system, the management of everyone we're not happy, I would then look for another opportunity. But I'm again grateful that they all had the patience and I was focusing on building my roots and not comparing myself with my peers or with
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: anyone else, how many placements they do or what they do. It was more of me understanding the industry,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: the niche, and and I knew, like the bamboo seed story, that you know it will take two, three, four years, but once I'm in, once the roots are strong. then the fruits will be there. So yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. And I think it is so important to be patient and accept that, you know, with something like recruitment, it's going to take 12 months before you really understand what you're doing. And it's going to take time before you see the results of your hard work. So you've got to be patient, you've got to be persistent, you've got to be consistent.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: yeah, that's that's a great example. How how did you find the journey of learning? how to do recruitment and be a recruiter in that first year.
Andy Mansoori: I think again it goes back to the last five, six years before recruitment, because I had really invested in self-development from sales to communication to just the concept of understanding rejection. the principle of and also I'd studied human resource management, so I knew the concept of interviewing and so on. So the principle of recruitment, it just took me I think just a month or max two months to understand okay, this is how a CRM works, what you do. But th that those previous value systems that I had learned really was quite transferable in my life to help me grow within that first one, two, three years. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. Yeah, the your background in in sales and your HR degree, you you come into the industry with a really good foundation to work on. Did you find it different selling people as opposed to what you had sold previously?
Andy Mansoori: not at all. I think sales is sales because the most important principle of sales is I think being honest. The moment you're honest, the moment you're transparent and and once you're passionate about something, people can feel it. I was very passionate about the business I did for six years and you know, we are human beings at the end of the day. I tell everyone, you know, you might you might think you can lie or you can outplay someone, but Trust me, everyone has the same intellectual and they will know and they can feel it. So I think yeah, the the the the true journey of success, if you could say, would be just that being transparent, being honest and and genuinely being yourself, which is which then trans translates to that passion of doing what you're doing.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I agree. Sales is all about relationships and doing it with integrity and being passionate about what you're selling and clearly you're very passionate about what you what you do.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you.
Michael Jones: were there ever any times during that first year where you thought, don't know if I can do this or this is harder than I thought it was going to be, or was it all smooth sailing?
Andy Mansoori: I it it is difficult. I'm not gonna lie. this is one of the most difficult industries ever, but also it is one of the most rewarding industries.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: So for me, I have this mindset. you know, I've been told many times it's like a dog with a bone. You know, once they I see it as
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: an opportunity, I would not give away that bone away. And and it's it's about seeing the light in the end of the tunnel and just telling yourself, okay, it is difficult. Have some
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andy Mansoori: patience, have the right structure, support system. But more important, yeah, it's good to have the structures, but it all comes down to you. So
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: in the the last 10 10 years there was great support and support system and structure. But if it wasn't for me to genuinely have that self-drive, the hunger, I would not be even 10% of where I am. So I think if to really grow in this industry and more than financial success, I think genuinely changing lives. I see this
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: industry as where you really changing lives. You really need to have that tenacity within you and that hunger and and that attitude of it's not just all about the money, it's just we are really out there. making a difference. and that's why I sometimes say
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: mad. This industry is is mad. You're really making a difference. You're making a difference in people's life. You know, you're
Michael Jones: I love that. Yes.
Andy Mansoori: genuinely changing lives. You know, in the last 10 years people who I got them job opportunities as project engineers are now directors. Their lives are changed. They're now my clients or and and so it's that's why I again going back to your question, yes, it is difficult. It's not a walk in the park, but that's why it's so important to be passionate. to genuinely believe that you are here for the long run and you're here because it's not all about the money. It's more than that.
Michael Jones: And and what is it that you enjoy the most about your role?
Andy Mansoori: Human connection, changing people's life. Seeing when people like I I was invited for a presentation at the university last year and one of my sharing sessions was I highly emphasized the importance of networking, but more importantly connecting with the right people on LinkedIn. last week one of the students in an event raised her hand and she mentioned, Andy, since your session I had twenty people on my LinkedIn, but in just one year I have three thousand people on my LinkedIn. But more importantly, I've had six interviews, one offer. And if it wasn't f for you sharing that insights of consistent connection and networking, and again, so this is beautiful. You know, this seeing the the fruits of not only through your career, the financial benefits, but also seeing genuinely graduates or people's life being changed is really rewarding. And as as humans, you know, we We love that. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Yeah, it it is a very rewarding job, isn't it? And we do make a difference.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: okay, well we've talked about making an impact and and and and helping people is a really big driver and and source of enjoyment for you. It's not all about the money, but but let's talk about the money because you are your company's top billet nationally, I understand. And is that six years in a row that you've taken out that title?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, I'm grateful to say it's been six years and it's it's it's been a humbling great journey. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Congratulations. How does it feel to be the top biller in your company?
Andy Mansoori: I I think it it feels great, but again, more importantly, seeing genuinely helping people get opportunities, seeing changing their life has is much more rewarding. I mean it's it's great, you know, you you get awarded once, twice, three times, but after a while it's it's more than that. And and I'm really grateful. Yes, the last six years has been really rewarding nationally being the top performance, but but more importantly it's it's all about the impact that Which is created by
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: by helping up, yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. That's a lot of companies helped, that's a lot of candidates supported. That's a big impact that you've had there. So yeah, a lot of people very grateful to you for your assistance, I'm sure. So so what what goes into being a million dollar biller? How how how do you achieve those sorts of results?
Andy Mansoori: I think the most important thing I always tell people is you have to be passionate in what you're doing. You cannot be working or doing something for the sake of nine to five. I have never since 10 years in my journey or prior to that looked at my profession as a clock in, clock out. It is something where you that's why I mentioned at the beginning, it's your own business. It's a business within a business with that attitude. passion. your true love for the industry or something will will really that's the starting point. And then of course with passion comes discipline. with discipline comes being persistent, being consistent, not giving up, and most important, having patience. You know, i there will be months where because the beauty of it the recruitment industry, you do whatever you can, but still it's not in your hand. You know it
Michael Jones: That's right.
Andy Mansoori: comes down to the candidate going out there, giving their best. And that's why it's important to consistently focusing on training and helping the candidates who go out there for an interview and making sure it's not just a numbers game. Okay, let me flick 10 CVs. Let me know I genuinely connect, catch up with them, understand how I can help them grow. And and and once they get a job, I always see them as not only a placement, but someone where I can build a long-term relationship. Where most of my Placements now are good friends, we connect and so again, going back to your question, the the the true essence of, being successful a million dollar biller is passion, persistent, consistent, but more importantly, having patience and just just being disciplined in doing the basics every single day and just knowing that it's yes, it's good to have the right support system, the structure, but it's all up to you.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. And there's two things in particular you mentioned that I'd love to explore with you. The first one being the passion that you need to be successful, and then the the discipline you mentioned as well. But with the passion piece, how important is it for you to be passionate about the sector or the space that you're in?
Andy Mansoori: I think that that is one of the most important pillars and when I started I started in a complete different industry. I started within IT, which I really like, but then that is where I think it's highly important to be flexible and if you're not passionate about the sector to to change that. You know, to to look at what something which you end up loving. and you might ask, Okay, how how would I know if I like it's about trying and and all right, let me try data or let me try AI, let me try cybersecurity or something and then Once you try attend events, I used to attend a lot of events and not to get leads, but to really understand the industry, to understand
Michael Jones: Hmm.
Andy Mansoori: where they're coming from, to speak their language. And that's and once you understand where they're coming from, then you're no more a recruiter, you are a part of them. You bec that then that's where passion
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: you automatically become quite passionate and it that's how passion grows. Yeah.
Michael Jones: It's interesting. So when I first started in recruitment, I was hired to do accountancy in finance. I wasn't given a choice. It wasn't a deliberate decision on my part to become a finance recruiter. I mean, I almost failed maths at school. I am not from a finance background.
Andy Mansoori: Wow. Wow.
Michael Jones: I don't I can't do maths. And
Andy Mansoori: Amazing.
Michael Jones: and whilst I was very passionate about recruitment and making a difference and impacting on people. I wasn't passionate about the world of accounting finance. And I
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: think that's why I didn't stay in recruitment as a recruiter for more than four years. I think if I was in a space that I was more interested and passionate about, I I potentially would have stayed recruiting for longer. So what you're saying is it may not be the right fit for you. Maybe you might want to look at changing or transferring, or
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: maybe even coming into the industry, having an idea of well, what are you interested in and maybe a rectorate can help you make those introductions perhaps. Sometimes we don't always get to choose which particular desks we go on, but yeah, that's that's something that is quite important to develop that passion and interest. you also talked about the importance of hard work and and and being consistent. So what are some of the the non negotiables that you do that helps you be successful as a recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Think one of the most important things is I try to connect with at least three people a day. And and that comes down to not only connecting through LinkedIn but also trying to meet people and build that relationship. it it this industry is not all about sitting behind your desk and just typing or just and you really need to go out, meet people, connect, understand them, and Build that long term relationship where that is I think one of the most important pillars. And of course the rest, proper interview skill questionnaires and you know calling and helping the candidates with the right in structure, that is all important. But meeting people face to face, connecting, I think is one of the most important pillars in this industry.
Michael Jones: I agree. And it's interesting because we've shifted away from that in many places. You know, post
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: COVID, a lot of people are still only interacting with candidates and clients virtually or via text message. And even things like face to face interviews seem not to be the norm as much as they were before. What what what are your feelings about that?
Andy Mansoori: I absolutely I agree. you know the the COVID days of just being online or through Zoom. it's it's great, but you that's why whenever I try to arrange interviews, I try to have it face to face because you really understand body language, energy, connection a lot more through face-to-face than just a Zoom catch-up or a Teams catch up.
Michael Jones: Hmm. And in the in in in the scenario of a a client, let's say for example, someone you're trying to win work from or build a relationship with, where there is some pushback around the need to meet in person, how do you typically tackle that?
Andy Mansoori: I think that's something where from my perspective I always if someone says no, great, that's fine. it reminds me of my telemarketing days. would I call them again? No. But also I would look at different I avenues. maybe would there be someone who I know who knows that person? So trying to create a connection to that person or if there's an event which is of really good value, seeing, okay, maybe I can invite this person to that event. Or or potentially offering some it's just all comes down to offering something of value which creates that connection. But also I've realized many people when we go out, we just want a job. I need a job. I've never looked at meeting clients for the concept of picking up a job. For me it's all about Everything and anything except a job. And and then at the
Michael Jones: Mm, uh-huh.
Andy Mansoori: at the end of the call, you're like, all right, I've got something. Okay, cool, sure. Let me, how can I help you? because as I mentioned, I've always in life seen you know when it comes to business, work, the long-term goal. And if if you're here for a long-term result with anyone, the whole intent is the trust, the sincerity, and the relationship and Allowing them to talk and connect with you, rather than just quickly catching up, okay, do you have a job? Because there's so many recruiters out there, and if you really want to stand out, you want to make the other person feel good. And the only way you can make someone feel good is by allowing them to talk more and you being the listener, and we recruiters we love to talk. You know, is I I I as
Michael Jones: We do.
Andy Mansoori: you can see I'm just talking nonstop, but because but i it has to be a situation where ninety percent of the talk needs to be by them, ten percent by you. And I can promise you, not the first meeting, by the third or fourth meeting, there'll be a lot of opportunities. So it's again the patience, the long being in this in the long journey. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, and you're talking about adding value and prioritizing a relationship over a transaction, aren't you?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, absolutely.
Michael Jones: And in your opinion, what's the difference between, a recruiter that's billing half a mil and a recruiter that's billing a mil? What what what is the difference that takes you to that next level?
Andy Mansoori: I'll just give my example. just the only difference is complacency. Sometimes we we end up being in this world where we think we're doing good and we're happy. But that is where it's so important to always you know question yourself and say, Can I do better? Is there room for improvement? But there would be s opportun moments where you're like, you know, that's it, you know, I'm happy with half a million. That's all I can do and that's great. If that's who you are,
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm.
Andy Mansoori: amazing. But for me, I've always believed in growth. Again, if you ask me, Andy, do you see yourself building two, three million? again for I would question that because I believe in balance. You know,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: very important to have a balance. Now I I work out, family is very important for me, religion's important, and everything's important. And I can't just yes, I can burn all the bridges and build two million,
Michael Jones: Mm.
Andy Mansoori: but on on what pay outcome. So that's why to answer your question again. The difference with half a million, a million, for me, I think it's complacency, but also you have to be honest to yourself and say, is my life balanced enough? And if your life if you can still improve and grow and and reach to that million, great. if yeah if there's opportunity for you to grow from a million to two million without burning bridges and without yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And and it sounds like what you're saying there is it's looking for those efficiencies. How can I bill more by working more efficiently, working smarter, being more strategic?
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So what would be some strategies or tips that you might have for someone about how they can work more strategically or smarter to start to increase their their billings?
Andy Mansoori: I think one ki one of two ways which I see is when when you start placing contractors, really treat them well, connect with them quite often. They will share a lot of opportunities with you. that is very important. even permanent placements, I tend to catch up with them, take them out for lunch, drinks. they are out there. within your sector, they know a lot. You're just within a certain vertical. So it's h again going back to connecting and and the beauty is through the people who you've placed you will meet a lot of opportun you'll come across a lot of opportunities which will open a lot of doors. So that's that's something I would recommend. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So it sounds like you're a big advocate for aftercare and following up with your contractors and you've already talked
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Michael Jones: before about the connection with people. That's where
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you get the intel to get more opportunities or Yeah,
Andy Mansoori: Yes.
Michael Jones: okay. And I understand you run both a contract and a perm desk. Is that right?
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: How do you balance the two? Because aren't they quite different to run?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, they're really different. I think if you ask me when I started to do both, I would fail. I think this industry it's very important to focus on one either contracting or permanent. But after five, six years being in a similar in in one vertical, knowing your market quite well, then you can work on both contracting and permanent. Contracting is all about speed, it's all about knowing your market really well. Permanent is where the true headhunting of working with passive candidates and and really spending good quality time interviewing them, understanding you know, it's not all about just ticking the boxes. It's you go a lot more in detail. So again, I'm I'm grateful that I started this after my fifth, sixth year, but the first four or five years, if I had a choice, I started only in within my contracting desk and then I moved into permanent after a few years.
Michael Jones: So would you say that they are the key skills or qualities that make a good contract recruiter versus a good perm recruiter?
Andy Mansoori: Yes, absolutely. A good contract recruiter. It's all about speed, about quality, about knowing your market, but moiing your market really well. because contracting the turnaround should be within forty-eight hours. So for 48 hours you're you're working on an opportunity, you're maybe competing with four other agencies. So you really need to know your market, your niche, your or maybe even have a talent pool of candidates where instantly you can you quickly cover them and then can represent them. Whereas permanent is where Then you start building a talent pool of can even though you have a talent pool, that's great. But then you really need to look at pipelining and understanding not only the technical attributes, but also the the personal attributes and a lot more. So again, permanent will be a gradual process where you really go in detail because contracting could be six months a year and all they need is the right skill sets and and get
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: the person going.
Michael Jones: So in your opinion is one more challenging than the other, cot contracting versus perm recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: No, I think they're the same. Fifty fifty. I think they
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: different skill sets for each, one one is speed, understanding your market, one is patient and again knowing going in detail and yeah, so they both are quite similar depending on which sector you're working on, yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And as you say, both have their own challenges and risks. I guess if we think about permanent recruitment, the risks there would be your counter offers. That would be a big one that a lot
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely.
Michael Jones: of people would face. What what are some of the things you do to minimize that risk?
Andy Mansoori: Since day one, when I started interviewing candidates, it's like, are you out there in the market? Are you actively interviewing? and again, it comes down to genuinely when you build that true when you see a candidate who ticks all the boxes, building that true relationship with them where they're open and honest and transparent with you and and and consistently closing them, closing the candidates and say, Okay, if you get offered, what happens if there's a counter offer? or what if you get another opportunity somewhere else? Is just salary your motivation or are is is it the culture? Are you not what's the reason? Why do you want to leave your current organization? So for me, it's never about a placement, a quick win, because a quick win could maybe he might lose his job within that grace period and then you have to find a replacement. So yeah, you gotta focus a lot more on really closing and understanding. their motivation, the driving factors why they want to leave their role. Because they might be leaving a permanent role for a contracting. That's I really have to understand why. what's the reason behind it? And and again, when you ask someone two, three, four times, they will be honest with you. And that's where it's important to before I represent, I make sure I speak with them at least three times to so and I must admit, you know, My ratio would be out of like hundred percent, easy at this ninety five percent. I've never had a someone to drop out. it's only been like five percent where you know they they it still ended up accepting the counter offer of this, which is normal. We are humans, you know, someone gets offered thirty, forty thousand dollars more and no matter how much you've pre close them, y you can't you can't stop
Michael Jones: That's right.
Andy Mansoori: that. But yeah. We do we can do what we can, whatever is in our control.
Michael Jones: That's right. We only have so much control and influence. But what you're saying is ask the question early on, revisit it often, explore all the possibilities, don't leave things open to chance.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Jones: Okay. And given that you've been recruiting in your space for 10 years, I imagine the business development you have to do today looks very different to what you had to do at the start. What what what does your business development activity look like these days?
Andy Mansoori: I think these days is more business development will be more of whoever I know. the the beauty is, you know, when again going back to the bamboo seed, when you've planted that seed and after nearly ten, twelve years, the f the fruits will leverage and they will grow. So every person who I've worked with the the last ten years or the relationship I've had now, they tend to come to connect with me and say, Andy, you've got an opportunity and and that's where, you know, you reach to that level where you can then decide is it worth helping them? Are they paying enough? is the is the culture the right fit? Or so but going back to your question, business development, absolutely yes. I still business develop. If I see an opportunity in a new sector, a new industry, I do call them and I try to connect, but not to that extent where I started because of
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: that leverage that I've built.
Michael Jones: Yeah, you have your client base, you have your relationships, people know you and come to you as opposed to you having to go hunt. Hmm.
Andy Mansoori: Yep. Yep.
Michael Jones: So is it more, would you say, relationship management, account management focused these days?
Andy Mansoori: you could say seventy percent. You still need to focus thirty percent on new business because then again if you just do relationship and account management, it is a slightly being complacent and complacency is a cancer in this business because that's when things can fall through. so it's always important to look for opportunities out there which is outside your existing client base, which you are always growing.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Very risky to put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. Okay.
Andy Mansoori: Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: Well, in terms of the the final question before we go into our quick fire round, Andy, for for someone who's listening to the podcast who wants to be a top performer, a top biller, a million dollar biller, what would your main advice be to them?
Andy Mansoori: think number one, be honest to yourself that you really love what you do. And once you know that you what you're doing is you really love and it's not just all about the salary or the base, then then you start automatically being passionate. By being passionate, you start focusing on growth, self-development. It's really important. It's not all about business development, it's not all about Placements, it's all about focusing on what area can I grow. So if there's one thing I really would share is make yourself accountable and just be honest to yourself. What is one area? Is it sales? Is it communication? Is it follow-up? Is this business development? Speak with your manager or just you yourself invest in yourself and just go out and focus on one skill which you can become better. And every single time you become better at one skill, Trust me, in twelve to twenty four months you're gonna see a huge difference, not only in your business world, which is in recruitment, but also in your personal life. So it's very important. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. No, I completely agree with that. Thank you. All right, Andy. Well, got a couple of quick fire questions for you where we'd love to get to know in a bit more detail. what has been your proudest recruitment career moment to date?
Andy Mansoori: I think my proudest was from my f the the first four months having no placement to the sixth year billing a million and being grateful to do that multiple times. and more importantly, that you know, having the highest number of placements in nationally. that that was something I I'm always grateful that I started with nothing with you know and and to to reach to that level I'm really grateful and proud. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Congratulations.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you.
Michael Jones: What's one thing you'd like to change about the recruitment industry?
Andy Mansoori: I think don't treat it as just a transaction. I think it's we are all here humans and we are here to genuinely connect and be proud of everyone's achievement and appreciate growth and and just just be supportive. And you know, we are in an industry which is already difficult. AI will never take over our industry, no matter what everyone says, we are in a world of connection. and relationship and we need to genuinely support and be caring and be there for each other.
Michael Jones: Completely agree. What's the biggest myth or misconception about recruitment that you would want to bust?
Andy Mansoori: Biggest misconception. I think
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: the biggest misconception about recruitment is where candidates out there think that recruiters are making their life difficult. Or we I I completely disagree. And it's very important I tell each candidate out there, when you connect with recruiters, build that again relationship, understand that yes, they're quite busy, but when you want to connect with them, know that their interest is for you to get an opportunity. So the the biggest myth is, you that recruiters only work with specific type of candidates or no, we are here to help anyone and everyone. And if you think you're the right fit, connect, show the value you can bring in and and we genuinely are here to help you.
Michael Jones: Hmm, we are. what is one habit that you believe all recruiters should develop?
Andy Mansoori: One habit always be open to learning new things, growth, self-development. there is never an end. Just because of you're building half a million, a million, or whatever, that doesn't mean you know it all. Humility is very important and having an open mind that any I I I have this attitude. I I sometimes even learn from rookies. I I try to listen to their calls, I try to understand where they're coming from. Everyone has some value to bring in. It's so important to be open. and and just learn and that that will really help you grow.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. What's the most underrated skill in recruitment?
Andy Mansoori: Underrated skill in recruitment is a skill. an an underrated skill that's a that's a really tough one because a lot of skills we could look
Michael Jones: Something that people should focus on more or pay attention to more or use more, let's say.
Andy Mansoori: Yeah, I I I would say follow up. Very important. I realized as humans we unconsciously hate rejection. So one follow up and that's it. We quickly move on to the next. No, it's all having that attitude of not giving up and usually the sales cycle could be after the six, seven follow up. So being making sure that
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Andy Mansoori: there's six, seven different touch points and and then you see the outcome.
Michael Jones: Yes. Be persistent, stick with it,
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: try again, try something different. Yeah,
Andy Mansoori: Yeah.
Michael Jones: great. Last two questions. But what is the best career advice you've ever received?
Andy Mansoori: And the best career advice I've ever received was love what you do, be passionate and there's there's a there's I have it in my phone, it says if it is to be, it is up to me. So in life, whatever it is, if it is to be, it's it's not your manager, it's not anyone else, it's you. and and you have the capacity, the the potential to do whatever you want in this industry or in life. It's just and if you're not getting the right support structure, then you gotta question, am I in the right place? You know, if you if you and and do it yourself. And that's what it is but if it is to be it's up to me. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Work hard, put in the effort, ask for help, do the self-learning, all
Andy Mansoori: Yeah. Yes.
Michael Jones: those things. And what are your future career goals and aspirations?
Andy Mansoori: I think genuinely enjoying this journey, which is what I'm doing right now, and and helping people get opportunities within different sectors. I could say it I know it sounds but just changing lives and and just that is something I'm really passionate about connecting with people and and really enjoy this beautiful journey of I have this skill, I've learned an opportunity and and just and continue doing it as much as I can to to really help as many people out there to to grow in their career.
Michael Jones: I love that. And I love the fact, Andy, that yes, you're you're incredibly successful. You're a top performer, a million-dollar biller many times over, yet you still remember this job is about helping people. You have a real passion for connecting with others. And it seems like a real focus on quality connections. And I think that's that's the ingredients to success, isn't it? That's what
Andy Mansoori: Yes.
Michael Jones: This industry's all about and that's what people respond to.
Andy Mansoori: Absolutely. And and just to add on having the right support struct system. You know, you know, the when you have the right culture and the right management who supports you, you know,
Michael Jones: Yes.
Andy Mansoori: I've been grateful. I've had three, four different managers in my life who I never called them my manager. They were more like a mentor to me. They guided me, they helped me, you know, currently and previously. And there's a lot of names, but I'll just mention every single one who's come in my life who's really helped. Me and that's why it's so important when you're working with the right right manager, it's gonna make a huge difference. But if you're working with someone whose only focus is numbers and not generally help you to grow and there's no proper support system structure, the you're that there's gonna be a hi a huge challenge, Yeah.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Well, the fact that you've worked for for launch recruitment for ten years says a lot about launches culture and the support you've had there. So big shout out to everybody at Launch Recruitment.
Andy Mansoori: Yes, thank you. Absolutely.
Michael Jones: Well, Andy, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us on the podcast. You've given some great advice, lots that we can learn. So thank you very, very kindly.
Andy Mansoori: Thank you for the invite. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Michael Jones: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
