What do disasters reveal about human nature? Katie Mears + Autumn Brown

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>> Katie Mears: But after a disaster, everything is chaos anyway.
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And there is an actual open heartedness about
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sharing that isn't there all the time. That's part
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of the magic and the transformation that can
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happen. I always think a lot about myself as the
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Grinch. And what we're trying to do is have our
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little grinchy parts grow in little size.
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>> Autumn Brown: Welcome to Climate Changed, a podcast from the BTS
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Center. We ask you and our guests what it means to
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live, to love and to lead in a climate changed
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world. This season, we're learning from people who
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are reimagining what faithful creative leadership
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looks like today. I'm Autumn Brown, artist,
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theologian, mother and freedom worker.
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>> Nicole Diroff: And I'm Reverend Nicole Diroff Associate Director
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at the BTS Center. Together we explore how
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spiritual imagination and real world practice meet
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this moment of change. Today we're talking with
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Katie Mears. Katie helps communities recover from
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and adapt to disasters.
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>> Autumn Brown: In my conversation with Katie, we discussed the
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meaning of climate refugee. We considered the need
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for belonging and dignity during displacement, and
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we ask, what can faith based communities offer
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when the ground beneath us is literally changing
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for you? Listening. We love to hear from you. If
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this conversation stirs or inspires an idea or
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story, you can always email or leave a voice
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message for Nicole and me. I'll share those
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contact details later in the episode.
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Before we hear from Katie, let's take a moment to
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ground ourselves.
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>> Nicole Diroff: Autumn and I are bringing to you a, uh, reading
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from a book that we both have turned to many times
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over the years. A book that perhaps we might
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consider to be sacred scripture for us today. It
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is a book authored by Rebecca Solnit titled A
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Paradise Built in Hell.
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>> Autumn Brown: Horrible in itself, disaster is sometimes a door
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back into paradise. The paradise, at least, in
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which we are who we hope to be, do the work we
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desire, and are each our sisters and brothers.
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Keeper.
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>> Nicole Diroff: We don't even have a language for this emotion in
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which the wonderful comes wrapped in the terrible.
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Joy in sorrow, courage in fear. We cannot welcome
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disaster, but we can value the responses, both
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practical and psychological.
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>> Autumn Brown: The map of utopias is cluttered nowadays with
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experiments by other names. And the very idea is
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expanding. It needs to open up a little more to
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contain disaster communities. These remarkable
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societies suggest that just as many machines reset
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themselves to their original settings after a
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power outage, human beings reset themselves to
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something that altruistic, communitarian,
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resourceful and imaginative. After a disaster that
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we revert to something we already know how to do.
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The possibility of paradise is already within us,
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uh, as a default setting.
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>> Nicole Diroff: The possibility of paradise is already within us
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as a default setting. That was a reading from A
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Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit
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>> Autumn Brown: Katie Mears is the Senior Technical Specialist for
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US Disaster and Climate Risk at Episcopal Relief
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and Development. Katie has been on the front lines
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of disaster response, from hurricanes to wildfires
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to the slow moving crises of climate change.
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They've spent nearly 20 years accompanying faith
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communities as they prepare for, respond to and
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recover from disasters across the United States.
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>> Nicole Diroff: In their role with Episcopal Relief and
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Development, they partner with churches,
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volunteers and local leaders to meet both physical
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and spiritual needs. Katie's work explores how
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disaster can reveal our interdependence and how
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moments of shock can become turning points for
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adaptation and compassion.
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>> Autumn Brown: Before we begin, a few reflections. As you listen,
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notice how Katie wrestles with the language of
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displacement. Katie invites us to look beyond the
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label climate refugee to the deeper question of
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identity, fear, faith and belonging.
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>> Nicole Diroff: M this conversation reminds us that disaster work
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isn't only about logistics, it's also about love.
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It's about seeing the divine in every person who
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has been forced to move, to rebuild and to start
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again.
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>> Autumn Brown: Let's listen.
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Katie, welcome to the show. It is such a pleasure
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to have you on the climate change podcast.
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>> Katie Mears: Happy to be here. This is great.
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>> Autumn Brown: My sense from your bio is that you started working
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in the disaster world, the disaster recovery
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world, around 2005, right?
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>> Katie Mears: Yeah, totally. I graduated college and had done
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some political organizing and everybody had lost
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in that election cycle.
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>> Autumn Brown: Right.
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>> Katie Mears: And so was sort of facing like moving to rural
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Kentucky to work on some random special election
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or coming up with a plan B. And the most important
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thing for that plan B was not accidentally ending
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up back in my parents house and working the job
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I'd had since I was 15.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes.
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>> Katie Mears: When I was taking care of my cousins while their
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parents were gone. The priest there was leading a
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trip to New Orleans the day after Christmas and I
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like wanna say that there was some like high
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minded moral reason that I called to do it but it
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was like very practical. Like I needed to go back
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to my parents house for Christmas and then I
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needed to not accidentally stay.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes, yes.
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>> Katie Mears: I gotta go. I gotta go to New Orleans.
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>> Autumn Brown: Wow.
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>> Katie Mears: We were cleaning out houses of people whose homes
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had flooded. I eventually joined staff a couple
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months after I was there and part of what was so
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striking was that sort of unlike the political
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work that I had done, basically no matter who was
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in town volunteering, nobody liked it when little
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old ladies were crying. You could have the most
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conservative church folks from South Carolina with
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marriage matters bumper Stickers and then a whole
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crew of queers from Boston, Unitarians. And they
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work together because, like, we disagree on
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everything, but, like, this lady needed her house
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cleaned out and we wanted to do that with dignity.
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And we all were on board with that. Yeah, that was
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enormously transformative, especially coming out
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of electoral work. We were finding real common
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ground in ways that you felt like you were making
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a little difference, both for that particular
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person, but also in the hearts of the volunteers
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who hadn't necessarily seen the humanity in each
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other. It was great. And so it let me have space
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to like, get out of the. From being the arguer in
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the corner to actually like in the room in all
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those car rides around town.
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>> Autumn Brown: Right. And all of the ways that I think, ideally,
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the benefit of spiritual practice. Right. Is that
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it supports you to be with uncertainty. To be with
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uncertainty. It is so formative when you encounter
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someone who's ahead of you in their spiritual
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journey, whether it's because of age or just, you
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know, practice, who can model that the ability to
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be with. Be with their. Whatever their spiritual
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orientation is as a practice for, um, uncertainty,
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which feels very relevant to the time that. That
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we're in uncertainty, the threshold, crossing the
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transition.
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So I wanted to ask you how you understand the work
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of spiritual leadership or this like, chaplaincy
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framework in the context of a climate changed
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world and m. Particularly what ways you have found
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yourself over the last 20 years really engaging in
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this kind of offering of care, accompaniment, uh,
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and, uh, spiritual grounding inside of situations
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where you. You are very aware of the intersection
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between the disaster and the ecological disruption
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that is also co. Occurring or maybe is the cause.
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>> Katie Mears: I think that one of the real gifts of being in the
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Episcopal space is that. And again, we're
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certainly not alone in this, but we're really
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comfortable both in faith spaces, but also in
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science spaces. We're all. There's just a lot of
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openness because we're not a tradition that thinks
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that God made fossils to trick us. You know, like,
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there's a lot of science in the room when there's
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a lot of us gathered.
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>> Autumn Brown: Church is like the church of the nerd.
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>> Katie Mears: I mean, not the only nerd, but there's a lot of
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nerd. We got a lot. We're rich in nerds. I don't
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think I can claim that we have the plurality of
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nerds, but. Yeah, no, there's like one chaplaincy
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conversation. I think that's happening around the
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trauma and loss of just like the awareness of what
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the world is gonna look like for the people that
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come after us, like, sort of looking at, again,
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the faces of my own kids and just being like,
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woof. If you're five now, it's gonna be real
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dicey. When you're an adult that feels bad. It's
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hard to hold. And I feel like there's a lot of
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energy on that side of the chaplaincy. And the
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stuff that I'm really also focused on or more
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focused on is how can we sort of bring some of
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the, like, chaplaincy skills and whole, whole
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person approach to also the people that are in the
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middle of it, making these hard choices all the
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time.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes. Right. There's the future casting, the loss
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that we know is coming. That is one of the
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focuses. And then there's the loss that is
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currently happening right now. You know, one of
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the things that we've been talking about on the
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show is this idea of chaplaincy on the front
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lines. Any place that you are geographically is.
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If it has not yet become a front line, it will
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become a front line of climate change at some
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point. And you're being called into. Right into
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spaces where people are in. They're in the
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frontline experience of active home and habitat
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loss. I really appreciate you naming what you've
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noticed about other people's inability to maybe
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have compassion or understanding for what is
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really land grief. It strikes me that it's only in
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a colonial context that we would be confused about
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why people would not want to leave their land for
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hundreds of years into this steady narrative that
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it is not our way to be connected to land, but
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actually humans want to. And maybe in some ways,
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our soul requires it to be connected to land,
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connected to place. And so the grief of loss of
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place is. It's one of the most profound griefs you
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can experience.
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>> Katie Mears: One of the things in disasters that people talk
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about is that we're going for helping people get
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back to safe, sanitary and secure housing. That's,
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uh, one of our PAT phrases. And one of our
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partners in Western North Carolina has articulated
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a super helpful extra frame that we've now been
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using, which is we want people to be in places
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that are safe, sanitary, secure, and chosen, not
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assigned, so that there's agency and choice rooted
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in the outcomes that people have in this coming,
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uh, upheaval caused by the climate crisis.
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>> Autumn Brown: So your organization, Episcopal Relief and
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Development, has decided to shift, as I understand
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it has decided to shift its US Disaster response
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strategy to focus pretty specifically on climate
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adaptation. And given what you just named this,
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safe, sanitary, secure, and chosen, these sound
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like some of the factors that you're thinking
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about.
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I imagine there's so much more than just logistics
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involved when you're relocating people or
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supporting people to relocate. There's values,
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theology, care, what is actually available and
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where are people going to be welcomed. I would
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love to hear your thoughts about accompanying
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people through this kind of upheaval and what
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you're learning, what your organization is
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learning.
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>> Katie Mears: If you, like, ask people after disaster who moved,
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like, raise your hand. If you're a climate
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refugee, nobody's hand is going to go up. M and if
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you ask people, did you move because of this
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disaster and do you acknowledge that this disaster
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was driven by the changing climate? Lots of hands
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will go up because
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>> Autumn Brown: there are people out here who are like us in the
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discourse using climate refugee. But then the
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folks that we're talking about wouldn't use that
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language to describe themselves and in fact might
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react to it. There's a way to look at that and say
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it's semantics. But then there's another way to
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look at it and say language really matters here.
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>> Katie Mears: 10 million people are going to be moving in the US
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in the next however many years. Uh, again, that
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will happen. But whether any of them say they're
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moving because of climate change is like a whole
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separate question.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yeah, yeah.
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>> Katie Mears: What we're working on right now is like, how do we
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talk to folks like regular people about how to
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assess their own climate risk? Because we know
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it's not as simple as like, coastal Louisiana
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equals high risk and inland Louisiana equals low
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risk. And so how can we figure out how to help
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people assess risk in ways that then make sense
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for them moving forward?
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>> Autumn Brown: Nicole was sharing that at a recent BTS center
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event. You said that the most important climate
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change related action a church in Maine could take
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was to work on affordable housing. Would you say
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that focus on housing is one of the most critical
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parts of the climate migration, climate adaptation
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work that you all are doing?
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>> Katie Mears: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Let, uh, me
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connect those dots. Part of the reason I'm using
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climate mobility versus climate sort of migration
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or climate refugee is that it shows that it's like
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not unidirectional. It's not just that everybody
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is moving one time north.
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>> Autumn Brown: Mhm.
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>> Katie Mears: Because what we know is that if millions of people
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are going to be moving from these higher risk
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areas, many of which are in the south, but
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certainly not exclusively, we know that that will
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just drive prices even higher in the places that
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people are going. As more people come, prices go
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up. And as prices go up, some people can't afford
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them. And then they move. You have what they're
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calling climate gentrification cycle. I see it
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here, Maine. People with resources like from
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California that don't want to deal with fires
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anymore take their remote jobs and move here to
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Maine. Um, and then as prices go, uh, up, low wage
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workers here are priced out.
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>> Autumn Brown: Wow. So I remember in the early years of my career
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when I was working in a disaster preparedness
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context, I remember having the kind of light bulb
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go off of oh, there is a connection between the
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aftermath of a disaster and our capacity to
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reimagine the structures of society. And I
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remember at that time, anytime I tried to raise
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that question with anybody, it was just like went
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off, you know, no one wanted to be having that
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conversation. And I don't think I knew enough at
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that time to understand why. What, what was the
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sort of somatic or whatever resistance to that
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idea because to me it felt so like, wow, you know,
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obviously that's so exciting. Young anarchist, you
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know. But now, now I think I have more of a sense
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of the, the, the grief and the overwhelm that sets
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in for people. The powerlessness, the lack of
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agency, the feeling, the hopelessness and the
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sense oftentimes that people have in the immediate
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aftermath. I'm um, lost in the storm. I just want
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to find a way back to what was. But I've never
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lost sight of this question of what if we can
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create a more just world? I'm thinking about this
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in terms of, okay, if we know what's coming and we
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know what's needed, then what is the role of faith
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community? What is the role of spiritual
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community? What is the role of networks of people
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who are not just morally engaged, but spiritually
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engaged in these questions, in fostering a, uh,
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more just world through the kinds of changes that
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we can make.
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>> Katie Mears: Two things come to mind. One is in our faith
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communities, when we've talked about climate, we
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uh, often call it eco justice. In the Episcopal
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world, we're usually talking about what in climate
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world we would call mitigation activities. So
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we're like putting solar panels on, we're adding
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an EV charger, we're putting more insulation, that
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kind of things, to lessen the amount of carbon
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that's being emitted.
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>> Autumn Brown: Mhm.
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>> Katie Mears: We're not usually having adaptation conversations.
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Even if we stopped emitting tomorrow, the world is
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still different in ways that we need to figure out
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how to adjust to. At our best, I think church is a
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great space for imagination, oral imagination. M
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There's going to be a place where we're dreaming
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about what a world could look like. That's often a
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faith or spiritual community because it's not just
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like me saying, I think we need to do housing if
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you can get your community around it. It's like we
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feel like God is calling us to a more just world
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and that means more housing in our context. We're
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not just saying a little policy thing. There's a
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big amount of meaning behind it and it ties to a
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much bigger story.
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>> Autumn Brown: Hmm.
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>> Katie Mears: Um, that's a huge piece that faith communities can
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do is be that imagination holders. Not that faith
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communities are the only place where we can
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imagine, but I think they're certainly, they're
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certainly a good one. And I think that one of the
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things our faith communities and spiritual spaces
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tend to be decent at is on our best day, we're
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good at welcoming. In a world where we're talking
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about climate mobility, part of what we're
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recognizing is that it's not someone leaves and
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never goes back, but somebody might leave the
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coastal place after a disaster. They might bounce
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up to their sisters in another town, stay there
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for a little bit and they go back to the coastal
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place. Then they go back to their sisters and then
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they go to some auntie's house. They're kind of
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like bouncing around. And in all those places, it
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would be great if they were welcomed so that that
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human longing to go home and to go to a place
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where you feel recognized. If that original home
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has been destroyed and that you won't be
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recognized there because it's not there. What
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would it be like if you were actually welcomed in
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a real way in other places? And how would that
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affect your heart? Whether any particular person
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decides to go back to their home again, it's their
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choice. That's their call. With their own
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complicated reasons. It's unfortunate if the
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reason that they're going back is that they
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weren't welcomed in the place they landed.
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>> Autumn Brown: Oof. Mhm.
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>> Katie Mears: We can extend that hand whatever choice that
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person, person ends up taking.
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>> Autumn Brown: Wow. Hi there, it's Ophelia from the BTS Center.
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Did you know that our team puts together show
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notes and discussion questions for
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>> Katie Mears: you for every episode.
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>> Autumn Brown: Climate Changed is for you and your spiritual
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community. You can find all this and more
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>> Katie Mears: online at, uh, climate change changed podcast.org
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now back to the show.
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>> Autumn Brown: These are really powerful, powerful invitations
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that you're making and powerful moments that
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you're pointing to. And I'm, I'm thinking about
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our listeners because I hear you talking about
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really shifting our thinking away from place based
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recovery to a people and community focused sense
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of, like, we're focusing on the actual humans
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involved. The person who is like going to their
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sister's house and then going back, and then going
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to their auntie's house and going back. I could
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just almost feel like this is a real person for
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you. You know what I mean? I'm sure you have so
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many stories, but for our listeners, I wonder if
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you could give us like a. Yeah, just like a story
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from your work of one of these people or families
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that you've really witnessed through.
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>> Katie Mears: Yeah, I'm trying to think about what is mine to
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share. One really good example from the work that
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we've done in the aftermath of hurricanes Irma and
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Maria in 2017. Our model is to partner with the
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Episcopal institutions in those places, primarily
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because they have the networks. They know who has
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the 12 step groups and who has the ESL classes and
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food ministries and all that stuff. They have
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those networks of relationships.
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>> Autumn Brown: Right.
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>> Katie Mears: So we worked with folks in Puerto Rico in the
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Diocese of Puerto Rico to do a ton of activities,
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but we also worked with a priest in the Diocese of
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Central Florida, which is the Orlando area. A lot
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of people that had complex medical needs were
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being moved off island into the Orlando area
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because they couldn't get the healthcare they
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needed on island. These were not people that were
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making the choice. Who knows what their choice
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would have been. But they, because of the support
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they needed, they needed to be in this other
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community. And to me, what was really lovely was
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that that church had a network of immigrant
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grandmas, many of whom were Puerto Rican. There
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were abuelitas, and they basically just
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befriended, supported, and kind of harangued some
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of these, especially, like, young mothers that had
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high risk pregnancies and were staying in motels
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where it was like, hard to, like, get the food you
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were needed to eat to take care of yourself. It
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was hard to, like, motivate yourself to, like,
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move because you were in a strip mall hotel in
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central Florida. These ladies just welcomed. They
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welcomed in a deep way because they themselves had
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also been welcomed when they had landed or had not
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been welcomed. So they were like, really aware of,
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like, what it was like to be a newcomer in a world
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where we know that people are gonna need to be
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moving. And there's so much grief in that. The
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fact that there was an extended hand and support
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in the place that they were, even if it was brief,
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that then sticks with them and it sticks with the
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people that know them. So that if after another
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event, that person is displaced again they don't
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only have warm feelings about being at home. They
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had a feeling of being welcomed in this other
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place, this other time. And then that becomes
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another thread that they can draw on in terms of
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their own resilience. Like I had support in m my
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home community, I also had support in this other
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place. And so if I have to do it again, there
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could be support in that next place. We're trying
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to imagine collectively, but also broaden people's
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imaginations on an individual level. Because what
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we can dream for ourselves has so much to do with
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how it felt or didn't feel other times we've gone
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through similar situations.
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>> Autumn Brown: Right, right. Yeah. That is so real. This piece
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around your actual lived experiences can really
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expand or constrain what feels possible. Thank you
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for sharing that story.
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I want to zoom out a little bit. What is your
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assessment of the state of disaster response right
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now? You're working at multiple levels. I'm sure
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you're aware, both nationally and internationally,
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and what's happening inside of faith based
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disaster response, but also what's happening
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inside of the secular institutions and
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organizations that are doing disaster response in
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the
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>> Katie Mears: US Which I think is the part I can speak to sort
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of with the most firm footing. We're so profoundly
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rooted in the place based, individual household
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kind of approach to disaster response. So much of
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how we all think about disaster recovery is about
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houses. How many houses did you rebuild last year
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is like a major metric, um, within the sector. I
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know that my indicators are so like wishy washy,
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like how many families did you learn their dreams
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and how many of them did you help? You know what I
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mean? Like it's like so woo in some ways. But like
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what are their recovery plans separate from the
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number of windows that need to be replaced?
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>> Autumn Brown: Hmm.
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>> Katie Mears: Guess Americans, we're often in a stance toward
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individual property ownership anyway. So so much
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is like, what percentage of the property tax base
503
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:16,780
in this particular town has returned? And then
504
00:26:16,780 --> 00:26:18,620
what we're doing as a sector is trying to do the
505
00:26:18,620 --> 00:26:21,320
like, kindest version of that. We know that what
506
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,680
the town wants to do is return the property tax
507
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,120
base. And so how can we help low and moderate
508
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,400
income families also return to their houses? Mhm.
509
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,560
Because returning to their houses and restoring
510
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,440
the property tax base is obviously the right
511
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,160
answer. Part of the epiphany for me in working on
512
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,680
this new strategy was that individual solutions
513
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,040
don't work to these kind of collective problems.
514
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,560
Helping one individual family put their house on
515
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,740
stilts on some barrier island somewhere if the
516
00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:53,220
road is flooded twice, A day at high tides, it
517
00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:56,540
doesn't matter that much how elevated or not
518
00:26:56,540 --> 00:26:59,300
elevated that particular house is, unless that
519
00:26:59,300 --> 00:27:02,860
family wants to be boating around. The currency is
520
00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:04,820
still individual, house by house by house by
521
00:27:04,820 --> 00:27:08,260
house. And so as a sector, what we're trying to
522
00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:11,380
wrap our minds around is how do we break that
523
00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:14,380
cycle and how much of us need to break that cycle
524
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:17,000
to start making headway on breaking that cycle.
525
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,920
What's nice right now is that we're realizing that
526
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,320
there are small ways to be shifting how we
527
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,680
intervene and that even people that are still
528
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080
going to mostly be doing property restoration as
529
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,920
their disaster recovery, there's still some space
530
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,040
to try other things. Um, what if we just gave
531
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,120
money to low income households impacted by
532
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:43,390
disasters, especially if they're renters or mobile
533
00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:46,310
home owners who rent the lot. What if instead of
534
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:48,950
outside volunteers, many of whom are white,
535
00:27:49,030 --> 00:27:53,110
rolling into an area helping to put the new
536
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:56,190
roofing on? What if construction workers who live
537
00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:59,390
in that house help their auntie do it? What if we
538
00:27:59,390 --> 00:28:01,270
let them have the money to move to a different
539
00:28:01,270 --> 00:28:04,790
apartment? Right? And it does let then us find
540
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:07,150
out, you know, if you give a, uh, low income,
541
00:28:07,150 --> 00:28:10,250
disaster impacted household a thousand bucks, is
542
00:28:10,250 --> 00:28:12,970
their housing quality better? Where do they go?
543
00:28:13,050 --> 00:28:16,210
What happens? What we're finding is that it's not
544
00:28:16,210 --> 00:28:18,050
huge amounts of money to make some pretty
545
00:28:18,050 --> 00:28:20,970
consequential shifts in terms of people's housing
546
00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:24,090
quality. Sometimes those shifts in housing quality
547
00:28:24,090 --> 00:28:27,570
involve moving. Isn't that interesting? Because we
548
00:28:27,570 --> 00:28:30,330
know that mass human migrations throughout history
549
00:28:30,650 --> 00:28:34,130
tend to cause greater inequality. Therefore we
550
00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:36,490
know that younger people and wealthier people go
551
00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:38,670
first. And I think that sometimes we can be really
552
00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:40,990
fatalistic about it, like, oh, well, it's gonna be
553
00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:43,390
the poor people and the old people left behind
554
00:28:43,790 --> 00:28:45,910
because they love it so much. Well, if you gave
555
00:28:45,910 --> 00:28:47,830
them a couple thousand bucks and you find out that
556
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:50,430
they move, it's probably not that they love it,
557
00:28:50,590 --> 00:28:53,510
it's that they didn't have support to make another
558
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:57,430
choice. Um, again, it's not gonna get anywhere
559
00:28:57,430 --> 00:29:00,550
close to evening the playing field, but offer that
560
00:29:00,550 --> 00:29:03,190
little boost to help people be able to have the
561
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:05,190
kind of choices that people with more resources
562
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:06,110
take for granted.
563
00:29:06,930 --> 00:29:09,330
>> Autumn Brown: I want to circle back to this question around
564
00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:13,490
collective solutions and what collective solutions
565
00:29:14,290 --> 00:29:18,210
have to do with unlikely collaborators. Especially
566
00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:22,530
within a US individual property, nuclear family
567
00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,250
based framework. There's already a constraint on
568
00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:28,610
imagination of what is possible. If what we're
569
00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:31,450
trying to do is recover back to that as our steady
570
00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:33,810
state, which is arguably not a steady state.
571
00:29:35,010 --> 00:29:36,330
>> Katie Mears: It's never been a steady state.
572
00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:39,810
>> Autumn Brown: Yeah, State of separation and uh, not intactness.
573
00:29:40,290 --> 00:29:43,970
Right. We actually need collective solutions to
574
00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:47,130
collective problems. And that means there's some
575
00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:51,250
call to attention for our communities to say we
576
00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:53,090
have to look at what's happening, where we are,
577
00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:56,650
and we have to look at who can we be in
578
00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:59,010
conversation with, who can we be partnering with
579
00:29:59,530 --> 00:30:01,210
that is going to help us solve this problem,
580
00:30:01,210 --> 00:30:02,930
regardless of whether we would have thought of
581
00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:06,610
them as a partner, uh, or collaborator. And I
582
00:30:06,610 --> 00:30:08,650
remember you were saying at the top of the hour
583
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:12,650
that when you went to New Orleans, you were
584
00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:16,570
getting to be in collaboration with lots of people
585
00:30:16,650 --> 00:30:19,530
with lots of different political stances and lots
586
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:21,370
of different faith backgrounds who were all
587
00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:25,940
cohering around similar work. Where are you seeing
588
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:29,300
that now? You know, 20 years into the work in the
589
00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:33,540
field, where are you seeing the collective
590
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:36,420
solutions that are coming through these unlikely
591
00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:39,540
collaborations, or people finding unlikely
592
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:42,380
collaborators able to partner and collaborate
593
00:30:42,380 --> 00:30:43,220
across difference?
594
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:47,100
>> Katie Mears: I wish I had a good answer, and I don't have an
595
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,420
answer at all to this. Part of what's so hard is
596
00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:52,580
holding intention, the idea that we want
597
00:30:52,990 --> 00:30:56,190
collective solutions for collective problems and
598
00:30:56,190 --> 00:30:59,470
also individual agency. My family's from the
599
00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:03,390
Eastern shore of Virginia. Houses built on swamp.
600
00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:05,710
So the collective solution is going to be that
601
00:31:05,710 --> 00:31:07,990
we're just going to buy out an entire town and
602
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:11,190
plunk them in the middle of Delaware. That would
603
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:12,350
be a collective solution.
604
00:31:12,980 --> 00:31:13,780
>> Autumn Brown: Mhm.
605
00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:17,550
>> Katie Mears: But they didn't pick it. Even if the majority of
606
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:21,120
landowners were to pick that, that doesn't mean
607
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440
it's necessarily the right choice for everybody.
608
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,240
So like, how do we hold those two? I don't have a
609
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,120
good option. I think the thing that I keep
610
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,799
thinking about is what's on the menu. As long as
611
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:36,960
the menu doesn't have very many choices, people
612
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,360
don't have very many choices. If after a disaster
613
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,120
comes, if the only things on the menu are repair
614
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,000
your damaged home in this high hazard location
615
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,260
where you can't insure it, or never own a home
616
00:31:50,260 --> 00:31:53,820
again, and become a renter in some place that is
617
00:31:53,820 --> 00:31:54,740
unfamiliar.
618
00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:55,650
>> Autumn Brown: Hmm.
619
00:31:55,650 --> 00:32:00,300
>> Katie Mears: Um, I think we all know which one we'd pick. How
620
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:02,900
can we have more choices on the menu so that the
621
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:05,980
collective solution can still be individually
622
00:32:05,980 --> 00:32:10,260
chosen? If we can have more housing available and
623
00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:13,340
a way to communicate risk that does not require
624
00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:15,910
housing, Having a master's degree in environmental
625
00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:18,990
science, to me, one of the big things that faith
626
00:32:18,990 --> 00:32:22,190
communities, regardless of location and regardless
627
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:24,790
of what their perception is of the risk where they
628
00:32:24,790 --> 00:32:28,270
are, is helping to have more things on the menu.
629
00:32:28,770 --> 00:32:31,550
Um, are there ways that you could be supporting
630
00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:34,830
people who are displaced from other places. Are
631
00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:36,470
there ways you could be supporting people who are
632
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:39,830
displaced from your place? What else could be an
633
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:42,350
option? And then being super neutral about which
634
00:32:42,350 --> 00:32:43,310
option people take.
635
00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:44,430
>> Autumn Brown: Uh,
636
00:32:46,220 --> 00:32:47,980
>> Katie Mears: because sometimes you, like, work really hard to
637
00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:50,260
be welcome, welcome, welcome. And then people are
638
00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:55,100
like, eh, I don't like it here. This sucks. That's
639
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:56,940
their choice. And that's like the whole point.
640
00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:01,660
>> Autumn Brown: Right? The job of leadership, the job of spiritual
641
00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:04,100
leadership in faith communities. To not take
642
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,820
personally the choices that people make when you
643
00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:09,740
create room for them to make their own choice.
644
00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:13,030
>> Katie Mears: Yeah, totally. I took a whole class on, um,
645
00:33:13,180 --> 00:33:16,060
meaning of the word liberation. God bless seminary
646
00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:18,380
for what you get to spend time doing.
647
00:33:18,620 --> 00:33:19,500
>> Autumn Brown: That's my dream.
648
00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:24,860
>> Katie Mears: It was so fun. One of the thinkers talked about
649
00:33:24,860 --> 00:33:27,860
liberation as the freedom to actually make
650
00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:28,460
choices.
651
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:29,730
>> Autumn Brown: Mhm.
652
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:32,860
>> Katie Mears: That align with what that person actually wants.
653
00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:35,420
That works on an individual or on a collective
654
00:33:35,420 --> 00:33:38,070
level. I do think that a big part of spiritual
655
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:41,790
leadership is like, holding out. We need to expand
656
00:33:41,790 --> 00:33:43,950
the menu of choices and we need to respect
657
00:33:44,030 --> 00:33:46,710
people's abilities to discern what their own
658
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:49,070
liberation looks like. Your liberation doesn't
659
00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:50,550
look like mine, and mine doesn't look like
660
00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:51,310
somebody else's.
661
00:33:51,570 --> 00:33:51,970
>> Autumn Brown: Mhm.
662
00:33:51,970 --> 00:33:54,750
>> Katie Mears: Great. That's what we want. Plurality is awesome.
663
00:33:54,910 --> 00:33:58,390
>> Autumn Brown: Plurality is awesome. Right? Right. It is also a
664
00:33:58,390 --> 00:34:01,350
practice of liberation to be in a position of
665
00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:04,910
power, to be able to manage the flow of resources
666
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:08,310
and not use your own, like whatever your own
667
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:11,790
beliefs and ideas are, as the sort of the managing
668
00:34:11,790 --> 00:34:13,550
quotient inside of that flow.
669
00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:14,670
>> Katie Mears: Exactly.
670
00:34:16,350 --> 00:34:18,870
>> Autumn Brown: Well, and speaking of like, rank, power and
671
00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:22,190
difference, you've spoken about the importance of
672
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:24,830
centering people who have, like, intersecting
673
00:34:24,830 --> 00:34:26,710
identities that create different kinds of
674
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:29,390
vulnerabilities in the context of disaster and.
675
00:34:29,950 --> 00:34:33,400
And climate change. As a queer person speaking to
676
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,080
a queer person, I'm just curious to know from your
677
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,280
vantage point, what are some of the unique
678
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,640
challenges and strengths for queer folks? For
679
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,120
LGBTQ identified folks, both individuals, but also
680
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,800
queer folks, like building family in different
681
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,520
ways who are inside of faith communities or also
682
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,640
affected by faith based disaster work.
683
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,920
>> Katie Mears: I think you were gonna say faith based violence,
684
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,240
which is also in the mix.
685
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:00,760
>> Autumn Brown: Which is also in the mix. Right.
686
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:00,920
>> Katie Mears: Yeah.
687
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,300
>> Autumn Brown: Uh, what are the vulnerabilities for queer folks
688
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:07,100
and queer families who are potentially having to
689
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:10,260
rely on communities of faith to respond and care
690
00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:12,900
for them, and those are spaces where they've also
691
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:16,660
experienced violence and harm or alienation. I'm
692
00:35:16,660 --> 00:35:18,580
just so curious to know what some of your
693
00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:19,740
experience has been with that.
694
00:35:20,220 --> 00:35:23,220
>> Katie Mears: Yeah. One of the things that I love about
695
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:26,780
disasters is that people want to get stuff done
696
00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:28,740
and they want to work with who wants to get stuff
697
00:35:28,740 --> 00:35:32,020
done. There have been multiple disasters that I've
698
00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:35,100
been involved with where some m of the bigger
699
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:37,700
organizations, often in coordination with
700
00:35:37,780 --> 00:35:40,740
government leaders, run a system that makes sense
701
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:45,380
for like straight married people who have a lease
702
00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:46,180
in their own name.
703
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:48,020
>> Autumn Brown: Yeah, right.
704
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:51,100
>> Katie Mears: Their like business life and their family life and
705
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:53,900
their professional like they all like line up in
706
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:57,300
the way that makes sense to a government framework
707
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,800
and they're happy to tell everyone all of that.
708
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,800
And then you've got all the other people who don't
709
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,080
want to walk in to the Baptist church and say who
710
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,280
they live with and how many bedrooms are in their
711
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,120
house and what their job is because it's more
712
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,040
complicated and or would cause them harm or they
713
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,520
worry that it would. What disasters do is they
714
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,600
turn the volume up in the system that already
715
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,510
existed. A place that has struggled with welcome
716
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:30,830
will often struggle more with welcome. There is a
717
00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:34,470
sort of magical early days of a disaster, but that
718
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:36,990
doesn't last and the volume gets turned up. The
719
00:36:36,990 --> 00:36:41,150
other side of that is that groups that are
720
00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:43,710
welcoming often work together in ways that they
721
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:46,150
haven't before. I'm thinking about a disaster
722
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:48,750
response once where the Episcopal church ended up
723
00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:52,400
working with the Jewish community Unitarian group
724
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:55,040
and like a secular group of some sort. And they
725
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,280
ran the other shelter for the people who didn't
726
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,640
want to be at the main shelter. And it ended up
727
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,800
being unmarried straight parents that wanted to be
728
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,080
together as a family ended up being queer families
729
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,640
ended up being just people who didn't feel
730
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,560
comfortable in that space. Like it ended up being
731
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,280
kind of a more motley crew of what we would call
732
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,880
beneficiaries than we would have thought. It
733
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,720
wasn't an all queer shelter. Even though I think
734
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:19,240
they thought they were going to be an all queer
735
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,560
shelter and I kind of like that too. Yeah, say
736
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,700
like who feels. Feels othered by the system. Like
737
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:29,220
look, other folks roll in too. Again, I think in
738
00:37:29,220 --> 00:37:31,220
that case it's also not like the people were
739
00:37:31,220 --> 00:37:33,820
sitting in the big shelter sitting in the corner
740
00:37:33,820 --> 00:37:34,860
with like evil.
741
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:38,620
>> Autumn Brown: Right. You're like who can I hurt today?
742
00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:41,700
>> Katie Mears: Exactly. They were able to share resources, they
743
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:44,380
were able to convey care. If we have immigrant
744
00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:47,020
communities that don't feel safe in the big
745
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:50,500
shelters that are officially listed, they're often
746
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:52,940
able to get resources from those big shelters that
747
00:37:52,940 --> 00:37:55,060
are officially listed because those shelters know
748
00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:57,260
why those people aren't there. There is an
749
00:37:57,260 --> 00:38:01,020
awareness of the limitations in all of our systems
750
00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:04,140
and a desire to like work across those boundaries
751
00:38:04,140 --> 00:38:07,020
even if they're not able to, like, actually blow
752
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:07,860
up the boundary.
753
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:08,510
>> Autumn Brown: Yeah.
754
00:38:08,510 --> 00:38:11,340
>> Katie Mears: Uh, two days after the tornado or whatever. But
755
00:38:11,340 --> 00:38:14,220
after a disaster, everything is chaos anyway. And
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00:38:14,220 --> 00:38:17,020
there just is an actual open heartedness about
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00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:20,700
sharing that isn't there all the time. And to me,
758
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:22,300
that's part of the, like, magic and the
759
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:25,180
transformation that can happen. If you're able to
760
00:38:25,180 --> 00:38:27,340
recognize that, like, sending sandwiches to the
761
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:30,140
church across town, that doesn't feel comfortable
762
00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:32,780
in your space. Like, nothing bad happens when you
763
00:38:32,780 --> 00:38:35,380
do that. Actually, it's kind of great. The
764
00:38:35,380 --> 00:38:37,700
likelihood that you can carry that with you
765
00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:40,980
afterward is just so much higher. I always think a
766
00:38:40,980 --> 00:38:43,300
lot about myself as the Grinch. And, like, what
767
00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:44,620
we're trying to do is, like, have our little
768
00:38:44,620 --> 00:38:48,980
Grinchy parts grow, like, one little size. I do
769
00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:51,940
think that our, like, little grinchy hearts do
770
00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:54,460
grow when we can do something together that's
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00:38:54,460 --> 00:38:57,140
outside of our comfort zone. And, like, at the
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00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:59,580
best, like, that's what disasters can be.
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00:39:00,220 --> 00:39:03,660
>> Autumn Brown: Oh. Uh, so real. Right? It. It's literally
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00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:06,220
dissolving the boundaries of what is known.
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00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:07,140
>> Katie Mears: Yeah.
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00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:07,420
>> Autumn Brown: Right.
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00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:10,620
>> Katie Mears: If we, like, let our hearts grow a size and our
778
00:39:10,620 --> 00:39:13,510
imaginations grow a size, we can do a different
779
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:16,590
thing that is part of that transformation. We have
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00:39:16,590 --> 00:39:20,350
a muscle to try a new thing and be changed by it.
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00:39:20,670 --> 00:39:24,190
>> Autumn Brown: Wow, that's so beautiful. What a beautiful place
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00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:25,550
to begin our landing.
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00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:27,550
I have one more question for you.
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00:39:27,710 --> 00:39:29,510
>> Katie Mears: Is it about the Grinch? I hope it's about the
785
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:30,030
Grinch.
786
00:39:30,270 --> 00:39:42,320
>> Autumn Brown: I can find a Grinchy framing. M. We're asking all
787
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,840
of our guests this season, what is a practical
788
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,720
next step that a listener can take after hearing
789
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,440
this conversation? Maybe the Grinchy framing is,
790
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,200
like, what is one small thing that someone could
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00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,360
do that would help grow their heart a size?
792
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,400
>> Katie Mears: Right. Like, create the conditions where your
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00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,880
heart could maybe grow a size.
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00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:00,360
>> Autumn Brown: Yeah.
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00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,410
>> Katie Mears: I think one thing is think about what the actual
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00:40:05,410 --> 00:40:08,250
hazards are in your place. What are the things
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00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:11,730
that cause harm to people and people's living
798
00:40:11,730 --> 00:40:14,850
conditions and people's working conditions. They
799
00:40:14,850 --> 00:40:17,370
might not be the, like, big, sexy ones that are on
800
00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:20,090
the news. It might not be giant earthquakes. What
801
00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:22,610
are the things that can happen, um, in your place?
802
00:40:23,090 --> 00:40:26,130
What are the gifts that you, as a person, but
803
00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:28,530
especially you in the communities that you're in,
804
00:40:28,770 --> 00:40:32,280
could bring to bear in that kind of situation. It
805
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,160
doesn't have to be the things that would be on a,
806
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,600
like, imaginary Red Cross checklist. It's not
807
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,640
just, like, who has a generator? All kinds of
808
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,320
different things that people are a part of, and
809
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,280
the things that people do are able to be leveraged
810
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,280
in the response to a disaster. So it could be that
811
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,600
it's the youth group and the knitters and the
812
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,160
people who usually make casseroles for the new
813
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,140
babies. In your faith community, you might have
814
00:41:00,140 --> 00:41:03,340
apartment fires that happen in your area. You
815
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:06,100
might be able to bring some resources. What are
816
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:08,780
these little ways that we can be involved in the
817
00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:13,420
everyday crises? Knowing that's the muscle that we
818
00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:16,260
develop that then gives us the right stance and
819
00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:18,340
the right connections to be involved as bigger and
820
00:41:18,340 --> 00:41:21,300
bigger things happen, you get good at it or it
821
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:23,900
becomes a pattern in a culture in your place.
822
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,600
That's the little Grinch heart setting that we
823
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,200
need so that we're ready as things continue. We
824
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,600
know that what's a little bit of flooding now is
825
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:39,320
going to be a lot of bit of flooding. How can we
826
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,960
be ready and also open hearted to know that just
827
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,320
because we responded with buckets this time
828
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:45,840
doesn't mean we're going to be responding with
829
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,240
buckets for the next 25 years. Right?
830
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,660
>> Autumn Brown: Right. Wow. That's so helpful. Katie. Thank you so
831
00:41:52,660 --> 00:41:55,300
much and thank you for this whole conversation.
832
00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:58,420
I've got so much of a download and I just learned
833
00:41:58,420 --> 00:42:02,100
so much from you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
834
00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:06,860
your wisdom and experience. Also your jokes.
835
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:09,900
>> Katie Mears: All the jokes. It was great. Thanks.
836
00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:10,860
>> Autumn Brown: Thank you.
837
00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:17,990
Our guest today was Katie Mears. They are the
838
00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:20,950
Senior Technical Specialist for US Disaster and
839
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:23,430
climate risk at Episcopal Relief and Development.
840
00:42:24,070 --> 00:42:26,750
>> Nicole Diroff: You can learn more about the Episcopal Relief and
841
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:32,190
development@episcopalrelief.org Katie is also the
842
00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:35,750
>> Autumn Brown: co author of Adaptation Through Shock, an article
843
00:42:35,830 --> 00:42:38,830
about how recovery after hurricanes Helene and
844
00:42:38,830 --> 00:42:41,630
Milton can support adaptation to new climate
845
00:42:41,630 --> 00:42:44,610
realities. You can read it on um, the Carnegie
846
00:42:44,610 --> 00:42:46,970
Endowment website and we will have a link for you
847
00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:47,890
in the show Notes.
848
00:42:50,370 --> 00:42:54,010
>> Nicole Diroff: Climate Changed is a podcast from the BTS center
849
00:42:54,010 --> 00:42:57,090
in beautiful Portland, Maine. Our show is
850
00:42:57,090 --> 00:43:00,330
meticulously and lovingly produced by Peterson
851
00:43:00,330 --> 00:43:03,450
Toscano. Thank you Peterson. You can find
852
00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:06,410
transcripts, discussion guides and now full length
853
00:43:06,410 --> 00:43:09,830
video episodes with bonus material on the BTS
854
00:43:09,830 --> 00:43:13,350
Center's YouTube page. Explore more about our in
855
00:43:13,350 --> 00:43:16,158
person and online program offerings@the
856
00:43:16,462 --> 00:43:19,870
btscenter.org I would love to see you at one of
857
00:43:19,870 --> 00:43:23,310
those programs. Stay connected, share this episode
858
00:43:23,310 --> 00:43:26,510
and reach out anytime. Autumn and I would love to
859
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:27,110
hear from you.
860
00:43:27,110 --> 00:43:34,110
>> Autumn Brown: And as we close, here's a blessing for today. May
861
00:43:34,110 --> 00:43:38,340
you feel the wind at your back, the ocean at your
862
00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:42,260
feet, as the hands of your ancestors, sometimes
863
00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:45,660
gently, sometimes firmly, guiding you into the
864
00:43:45,660 --> 00:43:45,940
future.
865
00:43:49,940 --> 00:43:51,620
>> Nicole Diroff: Love it. Thank you Autumn.
866
00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:53,220
>> Autumn Brown: Thank you Nicole.
867
00:43:56,180 --> 00:43:58,260
>> Nicole Diroff: Thank you for joining us for this vital
868
00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:01,340
conversation with Katie Mears There is still so
869
00:44:01,340 --> 00:44:04,450
much more to explore, so we are keeping this
870
00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:07,250
conversation going. Next week on climate change,
871
00:44:07,490 --> 00:44:10,050
you will get to hear my conversation with Autumn
872
00:44:10,290 --> 00:44:13,450
as we unpack the profound themes and ideas that
873
00:44:13,450 --> 00:44:16,330
Katie raised. Today, we'll explore the realities
874
00:44:16,330 --> 00:44:19,530
of climate disaster response and share some
875
00:44:19,530 --> 00:44:22,130
concrete next steps you can take in your own life
876
00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:22,690
and community.
877
00:44:25,330 --> 00:44:27,650
>> Autumn Brown: Coming up on the next episode of
878
00:44:27,810 --> 00:44:32,740
>> Nicole Diroff: Climate Changed, what if climate change is also an
879
00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:36,740
opportunity multiplier in the same way that a
880
00:44:37,380 --> 00:44:41,420
particular disaster might also come along with
881
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:45,180
some opportunity? Make sure you are subscribed to
882
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:48,340
climate change so you don't miss it. See you next
883
00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:48,660
week.