10. Authenticity Has No Definition

WEBVTT
00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:21.300
Hello, and welcome back to Beyond the Notation,
00:00:21.300 --> 00:00:24.559
a podcast on the ongoing reading of the personal
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.920
manifesto and doctoral thesis on early music.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.640
The notation is not the music by Barthold Kuijken.
00:00:30.739 --> 00:00:33.159
I'm Kenneth Chang, and I'm with Marilyn Gans.
00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:35.479
We are both young, aspiring musicians seeking
00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.039
insight to the fascinating and intricate world
00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.539
of historically informed performance and early
00:00:40.539 --> 00:00:42.979
music. Welcome back, Marilyn. How are you doing?
00:00:43.500 --> 00:00:45.679
I'm doing great, Kenny. How are you? I'm doing
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.060
great. I'm... I was... I was kind of, like, you
00:00:49.060 --> 00:00:51.960
know, fed up and really busy right now. We're
00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.179
in the season of college applications, asking
00:00:54.179 --> 00:00:58.000
for letters of recommendations. Oh, boy. You
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.500
know, getting our teachers, like, school teachers'
00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.420
validation from us. I was like, oh, are you worthy
00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:06.819
of writing a letter of recommendation or, like,
00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:10.120
even writing feedback on, like, a personal statement?
00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:13.400
You know what I mean? Yeah, I have to say, so
00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:16.019
I'm a freshman in college right now, and having,
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.430
like, spent... almost two months here and just
00:01:18.430 --> 00:01:20.629
kind of getting the the atmosphere and like what
00:01:20.629 --> 00:01:23.489
the upperclassmen are doing i think as busy as
00:01:23.489 --> 00:01:25.750
everybody is in college there has never been
00:01:25.750 --> 00:01:28.310
a more stressful and busy time for me personally
00:01:28.310 --> 00:01:31.849
than college applications and like not even the
00:01:31.849 --> 00:01:33.849
auditioning and stuff like that but just like
00:01:33.849 --> 00:01:35.930
the the application part and the pre -screens
00:01:35.930 --> 00:01:38.409
there was nothing nothing even comes close to
00:01:38.409 --> 00:01:42.920
it like seriously it's uh It's a feat, for sure.
00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:46.439
Yeah, it's like headlights in your hair and you
00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:50.019
can't stop itching, right? Yeah. Because I know
00:01:50.019 --> 00:01:53.510
I'm applying to some colleges where it's... It's
00:01:53.510 --> 00:01:56.069
for non -music purposes, but like for non -music
00:01:56.069 --> 00:01:58.549
major. But what's interesting is some of these
00:01:58.549 --> 00:02:02.109
like maybe I would say maybe higher level colleges,
00:02:02.109 --> 00:02:04.930
colleges that you have the colleges that don't
00:02:04.930 --> 00:02:06.730
ask too much writing in the colleges that ask
00:02:06.730 --> 00:02:09.710
crap ton of writing. Right. And I'm applying
00:02:09.710 --> 00:02:14.069
to a specific college that has like two massive
00:02:14.069 --> 00:02:17.210
writing prompts. So I think they're the ones
00:02:17.210 --> 00:02:20.210
like the Y University question mark. Right. Prompt.
00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:24.590
And then the second prompt is. it's a very weird
00:02:24.590 --> 00:02:27.810
open -ended six option question like choose your
00:02:27.810 --> 00:02:31.490
own adventure um where like there's this question
00:02:31.490 --> 00:02:34.669
about like a metaphor and you um you gotta like
00:02:34.669 --> 00:02:36.689
make your own kind of like weird metaphor like
00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:39.810
for example the world is your china shop or um
00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:44.270
um for that's like one of the examples so i i
00:02:44.270 --> 00:02:46.900
have to like choose between these six prompts
00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:49.159
on there's one about acronyms right you know
00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:51.680
like how people might mistaken like cso like
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.379
chicago symphony for like um there's like this
00:02:54.379 --> 00:02:57.780
completely another like uh acronym for cso which
00:02:57.780 --> 00:03:00.819
is like um this weird like sewage i don't know
00:03:00.819 --> 00:03:02.979
thing in chicago so it's kind of fun and then
00:03:02.979 --> 00:03:05.639
you like compare and contrast the two right and
00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:09.539
like like embrace the beauty out of it like like
00:03:09.539 --> 00:03:12.139
extract like all like the beauty that you could
00:03:12.139 --> 00:03:14.199
see from those two metaphors so it's kind of
00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.780
crazy it's it's been very busy recently so that's
00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:20.000
like insane it's a lot to organize too and i
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.639
because i remember with the writing prompts too
00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.139
like you'll have one school that'll say write
00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:26.800
250 words on this subject and then you'll have
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.870
another school that's that is like write 150
00:03:29.870 --> 00:03:33.610
words on a very similar subject but not exactly
00:03:33.610 --> 00:03:36.129
so then you have to take maybe your your other
00:03:36.129 --> 00:03:38.270
thing that you wrote and rewrite it so it's not
00:03:38.270 --> 00:03:40.009
like you can just copy and paste the same thing
00:03:40.009 --> 00:03:42.870
for each one necessarily yeah they they want
00:03:42.870 --> 00:03:45.930
really unique distinct responses and some of
00:03:45.930 --> 00:03:47.830
these the one the one i'm applying to requires
00:03:47.830 --> 00:03:52.250
like two pages three pages um yeah so Not only
00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:54.210
for like the big projects that you have to work
00:03:54.210 --> 00:03:57.229
on too, but just at least for music schools They
00:03:57.229 --> 00:03:59.409
always ask like who's your private teacher on
00:03:59.409 --> 00:04:01.289
this instrument? What how many years of theory
00:04:01.289 --> 00:04:03.870
do you have all these things have to put in and
00:04:03.870 --> 00:04:05.550
maybe it's like a really short sentence But you
00:04:05.550 --> 00:04:08.389
have to do so many of them. They ask like which
00:04:08.389 --> 00:04:10.750
Ensemble so you've been a part of so I write
00:04:10.750 --> 00:04:13.090
down my youth orchestras my chamber music and
00:04:13.090 --> 00:04:15.509
stuff. It's just it's relentless It doesn't end.
00:04:15.610 --> 00:04:17.370
It's crazy. It's kind of yeah, it's also kind
00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:19.230
of scary because you don't know like what else
00:04:19.230 --> 00:04:21.800
like There's so much other stuff you could add,
00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:23.540
but you don't know what exactly. So you have
00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:26.100
to leave it at a point where it's just sufficient
00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:29.319
enough to your standards or expectations. That's
00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:31.680
what I noticed. No, that's totally true. And
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.779
then actually what's even worse is when you're
00:04:33.779 --> 00:04:36.660
only given the option to include a small selection
00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:38.839
of things. And then you're like, oh my gosh,
00:04:38.939 --> 00:04:40.860
what are my peak things? Especially if you've
00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:42.480
done a lot of music in high school. It's like,
00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:46.699
what do I pull from as my top music experiences?
00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:49.240
So it's challenging, but you know what? It's
00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.040
okay. But in the very end, by the last minute
00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.000
you click submit, you're all done. You're all
00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.459
done. Except for the audition, but you can, auditions
00:04:57.459 --> 00:05:01.220
like good. You can prepare. Uh, are definitely
00:05:01.220 --> 00:05:04.339
as stressful as that was. And Oh my God, it was,
00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.240
I have to say it was not, didn't even come close
00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.899
to the pre -screen experience. That was bad.
00:05:10.180 --> 00:05:13.370
That was atrocious, but yeah, it's okay. It's
00:05:13.370 --> 00:05:14.930
great that you... We're stronger musicians now.
00:05:14.949 --> 00:05:16.589
It's great that, yeah, it's great that you, like,
00:05:16.629 --> 00:05:18.449
because the audition then is, like, baked into
00:05:18.449 --> 00:05:20.629
your practice time, and you're like, oh, now
00:05:20.629 --> 00:05:22.990
I'm just gonna do this, that, and then go and
00:05:22.990 --> 00:05:25.329
play for some people, right? And then once you
00:05:25.329 --> 00:05:27.069
go to audition, like, it should, hopefully it
00:05:27.069 --> 00:05:29.110
should be good, but that's, I think that's how
00:05:29.110 --> 00:05:31.790
I kind of visualize it. You sort of had a place
00:05:31.790 --> 00:05:34.470
by the audition, depending on how traumatic the
00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:37.829
pre -screen experience was, where, I think maybe
00:05:37.829 --> 00:05:40.540
you just don't, at least for me, Um, it's definitely
00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:42.660
a lot of pressure, but you kind of care less.
00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:46.160
It's like, okay, here we go. Um, so I don't know,
00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:48.860
maybe that affects the playing, but yeah, for
00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.870
sure. So I know we, um, we kind of like, we kind
00:05:54.870 --> 00:05:57.569
of got through some part of chapter 13 on manuscript
00:05:57.569 --> 00:06:01.269
print revision and modern editions, but we kind
00:06:01.269 --> 00:06:03.209
of had to stop there so we could make way for
00:06:03.209 --> 00:06:06.009
our guests. So actually let's, let's go back
00:06:06.009 --> 00:06:09.009
from the chapter 13 and then we can just go,
00:06:09.029 --> 00:06:13.079
um, from there. um and see if any like any other
00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.939
extra thoughts lingering in our mind just uh
00:06:15.939 --> 00:06:20.350
you know just like blurt or shout out whenever
00:06:20.350 --> 00:06:24.610
you need to yeah okay um i think i'll take this
00:06:24.610 --> 00:06:30.000
one in the wing so uh here we go Music was mostly
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.879
written for immediate use, not for eternity,
00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:35.259
and certainly not in view of a scientific edition
00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:38.180
in our times. Anybody who has handled old manuscripts
00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:40.120
and prints will have experienced how many mistakes
00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:43.100
they contain, especially notational details such
00:06:43.100 --> 00:06:45.740
as unclear and inconsistent positioning of articulation
00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:49.240
and dynamic marks. Some are very good, such as
00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.040
the manuscript of J .S. Bach's Violin Sole BWV
00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:55.980
1001 -1006, And there's a figure showing the
00:06:55.980 --> 00:06:59.579
manuscript of that on the next page. Or many
00:06:59.579 --> 00:07:02.360
French engraved editions of the first half of
00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:04.339
the 18th century. But unfortunately, this is
00:07:04.339 --> 00:07:07.389
the exception, not the rule. Even autographs
00:07:07.389 --> 00:07:09.730
were often quickly penned and faulty and air
00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:12.819
-strewn. Obviously, details were not always considered
00:07:12.819 --> 00:07:15.079
of much importance. And anyway, when questions
00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:17.560
arose, the composer or one of his competent students
00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.000
or contemporaries would likely to be present
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.079
when the performance took place. Our performers
00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:25.139
would be acquainted with the style. Composers
00:07:25.139 --> 00:07:27.240
such as Johann Sebastian Bach, and even more
00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.579
so, his son Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, are notorious
00:07:30.579 --> 00:07:33.560
for constantly revising their works. The latter's
00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:35.600
own copies of his printed keyboard works partly
00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.220
survive. They are scribbled full of alternatives,
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:40.560
ornamentations, and elaborations that clearly
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.180
do not all date from the same time period. This
00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:46.019
is a nightmare for any editor. Some of C .P .E.
00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.319
Bach's compositions exist in several manuscript
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:50.860
and or printed sources, with different titles,
00:07:51.019 --> 00:07:53.980
tempi, tonalities, instrumentation, and or additional
00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:56.959
movements. Typical examples are his violoncello
00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:59.500
concerti, which he recomposed later for harpsichord
00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:02.560
and for flute. And not only has the part has
00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:05.019
been drastically changed and adapted to the new
00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:07.079
instrument, but he sometimes even changed the
00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.410
orchestral parts. So J .S. Bach also often reworked
00:08:11.410 --> 00:08:14.420
earlier pieces. as is shown in many religious
00:08:14.420 --> 00:08:17.300
cantatas, masses, and passions. Other examples
00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:19.319
are his transcriptions of the Violin Concerto
00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:22.660
for Harpsichord, or the Violin Sonata BWV 1019,
00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.360
which does not contain the same movements in
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.360
all versions. Bach's Viola da Gamba Sonata BWV
00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.320
1027 was originally a trio sonata for two flutes,
00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.990
or violins, and basso continuo. Three movements
00:08:35.990 --> 00:08:38.129
of the Sonata also exist in an organ version,
00:08:38.269 --> 00:08:40.649
and not proven to be by Bach, but certainly from
00:08:40.649 --> 00:08:43.429
his circle, the very concept of an original,
00:08:43.690 --> 00:08:46.850
definitive, or best version did not seem to exist
00:08:46.850 --> 00:08:49.980
at the time. I want to point out there, there's
00:08:49.980 --> 00:08:52.679
two things, right? We have the manuscript on
00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.080
the left here, if you want to take a look at
00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:58.600
that, and then my second observation is the Bach
00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.720
Viola da Gamba Sonata he cites right here. This
00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:04.169
one, I think... I'm going to check right now.
00:09:04.250 --> 00:09:09.090
This is BWV 1027. I think I did give this a listen.
00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:13.110
This is the G major one. This is, I think, like
00:09:13.110 --> 00:09:16.269
the number one. There's like three of them or
00:09:16.269 --> 00:09:20.350
four. Yeah. Okay. But what I like about this
00:09:20.350 --> 00:09:24.129
one is because this is like the most famous.
00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.159
The gamba sonatas like if you think about viola
00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.539
the gamba, this is actually one of the most famous
00:09:29.539 --> 00:09:32.460
that got the gamba sonatas It's a staple. So
00:09:32.460 --> 00:09:34.139
if you think of cello suites, what's the staple
00:09:34.139 --> 00:09:38.360
of the cello suites for cello is? Bach of yeah,
00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:41.919
yeah, and what's this so not a staple for real
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:43.940
the gamba. It's actually Bach It's actually the
00:09:43.940 --> 00:09:46.299
most popular and that's sad to hear because not
00:09:46.299 --> 00:09:48.580
I don't think not too many people Like even know
00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:51.200
that those that repertoires branch of repertoire
00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:54.980
rather yet like even like people who really rigorously
00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:58.559
study uh viola da gamba music no one's gonna
00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.379
know like even like the classical people so that's
00:10:01.379 --> 00:10:03.700
just something so yeah yeah it's interesting
00:10:03.700 --> 00:10:05.220
you bring that up because it seems like Bach
00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:08.500
is a composer um I mean this I mean I'm talking
00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:11.320
to like an agreeing crowd for sure but uh it's
00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:14.259
definitely he wrote sets of music which really
00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:18.720
seem to have encompassed um the limitations of
00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:20.200
a lot of instruments so you bring up the Bach
00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:22.179
cello suites where are like the quintessential
00:10:22.179 --> 00:10:25.259
pieces for that all cello students will learn
00:10:25.259 --> 00:10:26.799
at some point I mean you have the well -tempered
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.659
clavier the example in the book they're using
00:10:29.659 --> 00:10:32.860
is the violin sonatas that he wrote which are
00:10:32.860 --> 00:10:36.519
still continuously played across the world for
00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:38.960
like auditions and recitals and things like that
00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.919
so just very influential in like I think standardizing
00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:47.350
like absolute music as an idea where music for
00:10:47.350 --> 00:10:50.419
music's sake is kind of a big thing. Yeah. And
00:10:50.419 --> 00:10:53.440
also to add on, like there's, you know, like
00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.940
I think it was mentioned before, but like they,
00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:00.200
they like to re -instrumentize the instruments
00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.519
for their works, like of sonatas and suites.
00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:08.080
So if you notice in the BWV 1027, there's, it
00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:10.419
mentions an organ version and I don't, I'm not
00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:12.639
so sure if it mentions like the organs, like
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.720
the sonata of part, but. I definitely know when
00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:21.129
there was, I think, a G minor da gamba sonata,
00:11:21.129 --> 00:11:24.450
and instead of harpsichord and da gamba, it was
00:11:24.450 --> 00:11:28.049
da gamba and, what is it, continual organ. It
00:11:28.049 --> 00:11:31.370
has a very kind of like smooth tone kind of like
00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:35.850
output when you play on the continual organ.
00:11:35.889 --> 00:11:37.649
Do you know what the continual organ looks like?
00:11:37.750 --> 00:11:42.169
It's like the wooden box. Think kind of like
00:11:42.169 --> 00:11:44.529
it's not exactly looks like a upright piano,
00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:47.090
but it's like way smaller and it's kind of like
00:11:47.090 --> 00:11:51.210
wooden box with a keyboard You know, I was just
00:11:51.210 --> 00:11:52.590
thinking like when you're bringing that up because
00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:55.629
a lot of these Baroque instruments at the school
00:11:55.629 --> 00:11:58.870
that I go to there's this hallway Where you it's
00:11:58.870 --> 00:12:00.470
sort of the historical music department hallway
00:12:00.470 --> 00:12:02.529
and you walk down and you look in these practice
00:12:02.529 --> 00:12:04.389
rooms And these are the craziest instruments
00:12:04.389 --> 00:12:06.549
I've ever seen in my life like you have your
00:12:06.549 --> 00:12:08.690
standard like harpsichords and things like that,
00:12:08.750 --> 00:12:10.730
but then Next to it, there'll be instruments
00:12:10.730 --> 00:12:14.730
that kind of look like maybe a cello, but it's
00:12:14.730 --> 00:12:16.669
not. They kind of look like a harpsichord, but
00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:19.750
it's not. So we should bring these things back,
00:12:19.870 --> 00:12:24.889
in my opinion. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, even like, because
00:12:24.889 --> 00:12:27.730
that was such a famous recording, the one with
00:12:27.730 --> 00:12:31.250
the bass continuo organ and like the, it was
00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:32.889
actually a viola and cello piccolo, not even
00:12:32.889 --> 00:12:34.610
the viola da gamba itself. That was an Anner
00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:37.919
Bilsma recording from like the 80s. That got
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.179
really hot in the market where people were just
00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:44.259
listening to that. And they genuinely thought
00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:46.720
it was authentic, right? Yeah. Bilsma had an
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.820
authenticity kind of philosophy. That was totally
00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:53.220
different from Leonhardt, the harpsichordist,
00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:55.860
or even the caicas. But his was a little bit
00:12:55.860 --> 00:13:01.080
more artistic. Expressionism is a little bit
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:04.539
more at the human level where some of the other
00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:06.720
historical musicians might limit that a lot.
00:13:07.029 --> 00:13:10.009
But that's what influences that, in my opinion.
00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:15.580
All right. Any thoughts about, like, the manuscript
00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:18.440
here? I mean, I know you're a violinist. You
00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:21.539
might have played this before. Yeah, I was actually
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.200
kind of laughing because looking at it, even
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.500
in the handwriting, it looks exactly like the
00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:30.100
copy that I have. That's nice. That's great.
00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:32.279
This goes without saying, but sometimes you look
00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:34.019
at some original scores and you're like, how
00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:37.529
did this turn into... um what we recognize today
00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:41.730
um but no this looks pretty pretty accurate i
00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:43.389
mean some of the spacings are a little strange
00:13:43.389 --> 00:13:46.049
but like if i were given this music and told
00:13:46.049 --> 00:13:49.970
to sight read it um i think i would get a similar
00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.350
sound to what we like expect today just by the
00:13:53.350 --> 00:13:56.179
way it's written it's very neat that's really
00:13:56.179 --> 00:13:59.639
nice yeah i like My only limitations, because
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.019
right now I'm just thinking of Chelsuites, but
00:14:02.019 --> 00:14:03.840
that one's not actually written by Bach. This
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:10.240
one is. authorship actually is a little bit off
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.559
and the notation is actually very messy because
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.740
it was Anna Magdalena Bach version which had
00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:18.559
a lot of inconsistencies and that's why a lot
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.480
of you might hear a lot of cellists just like
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.299
doing all sorts of stuff they want but improv
00:14:23.299 --> 00:14:26.980
anywhere yeah it's like there's no single definitive
00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:28.759
manuscript we're just going to do anything we
00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.720
want yeah it's not wrong though it's just ornamentation
00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.820
yeah you're just very lucky though because I
00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:37.159
don't think there's any other like I don't think
00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.000
you have as many, like, inconsistent, like, you
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.419
know, manuscripts compared to, like, us. Yeah.
00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:45.179
All right. That's interesting, actually. Yeah,
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:46.799
I guess maybe some instruments are, like, more
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.820
prone to that versus others. I don't know, but
00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:51.720
definitely not the harp, definitely not keyboard
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.000
stuff. Like, I definitely know, like, those are,
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:57.500
like, oh, there's so many of them, but. A bazillion.
00:14:58.059 --> 00:15:02.370
Yeah. Alright, even if a genealogy of the sources
00:15:02.370 --> 00:15:04.590
can be established, this does not necessarily
00:15:04.590 --> 00:15:07.059
reflect the composer's priorities. A wealthy
00:15:07.059 --> 00:15:09.100
court with large orchestra, a special occasion
00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:11.580
such as princely weddings or funerals, and important
00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:14.240
church festivals could provide the occasion for
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.059
more lavish rewritings of existing compositions.
00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:20.159
With Vivaldi have disapproved of his violin concerti,
00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.139
originally scored with only string and basal
00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:24.320
continual accompaniment, being performed by the
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.679
famous Dresden Court Orchestra with added and
00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:31.299
wind ripieni under the direction of who was probably
00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:34.779
responsible for those extra parts? Or would Vivaldi
00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:37.399
have been so impractical as to always require
00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.639
this richly orchestrated version once it had
00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.600
been assembled? The presence of a new singer
00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.059
was often reason enough to discard an aria and
00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:47.620
compose another one. Since style and fashion
00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:50.039
were changing rapidly, composers could easily
00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.960
feel the need to update their works or, on occasion,
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:57.190
works by other composers. A well -edited and
00:15:57.190 --> 00:15:59.629
clearly printed modern edition looks dangerously
00:15:59.629 --> 00:16:02.330
definitive and trustworthy. It seems to leave
00:16:02.330 --> 00:16:05.529
no room for doubt. Famous virtuosi prepare many
00:16:05.529 --> 00:16:08.250
modern editions and freely put their own interpretations
00:16:08.250 --> 00:16:10.769
into the score, as if the purchaser of the edition
00:16:10.769 --> 00:16:13.509
was fundamentally ignorant and incapable of thinking
00:16:13.509 --> 00:16:15.970
for himself. In the case of urtext editions,
00:16:16.269 --> 00:16:19.070
an expert editor, usually a musicologist rather
00:16:19.070 --> 00:16:22.470
than a performing musician, has solved the problems,
00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:24.909
and the performer is expected to believe him.
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.340
Usually, the critical comments are hard to read,
00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:30.000
often published separately, and intended more
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.059
for fellow editors and scholars than for performers.
00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.179
It can be done differently. I requested from
00:16:38.179 --> 00:16:40.659
the editors that my Urtext editions include a
00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:42.240
separate chapter with performance suggestions
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.159
based on historical sources. In the musical text,
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.799
I draw special attention to problematical places
00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.100
and unsolved questions, encouraging performers
00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:53.460
to make their own decisions. That's a big thing.
00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:59.889
That's big great advice, actually. I don't think
00:16:59.889 --> 00:17:02.009
people think about that either too much, too.
00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:05.710
I don't know. Yeah, no, for sure. This is, I
00:17:05.710 --> 00:17:10.380
think, a big... I don't want to say, like, controversy,
00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:13.619
but it is sort of a fact, too, where there is
00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:16.160
this divide between performers versus musicologists,
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:19.819
and their aim is always going to be different.
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.900
You brought up the example of different historical
00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:26.039
performers and how some really... in their in
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:27.859
their thought process want to push more of the
00:17:27.859 --> 00:17:30.140
emotional side of music versus some other people
00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.019
who are much more analytical in that regard so
00:17:33.019 --> 00:17:35.640
it's the same thing i think performer to performer
00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.119
and especially performer to music historian um
00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.849
and there are examples where people have even
00:17:42.849 --> 00:17:45.769
said sometimes the composer is wrong uh there's
00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:49.109
famously i mean people uh there are recordings
00:17:49.109 --> 00:17:51.829
of stravinsky playing his own works sometimes
00:17:51.829 --> 00:17:54.670
and people have actually criticized Stravinsky
00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.250
himself playing his own work saying that Stravinsky
00:17:57.250 --> 00:17:59.609
doesn't understand himself doesn't understand
00:17:59.609 --> 00:18:02.710
the music that he's written um which is controversial
00:18:02.710 --> 00:18:05.710
to say but there are people out there who uh
00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:09.210
I think sometimes with merit actually make like
00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:12.029
have that that belief um and of course you know
00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:13.410
it depends on the piece depends on the composer
00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:17.930
um but especially um with with sheet music I
00:18:17.930 --> 00:18:19.849
mean all of our information comes from the page
00:18:19.849 --> 00:18:24.670
so yeah it's just it's a long -winded phenomenon
00:18:24.670 --> 00:18:26.869
i think in terms of like if you're a performer
00:18:26.869 --> 00:18:29.089
making sure that you pick the the addition that
00:18:29.089 --> 00:18:32.109
you want uh to reflect you the best way you can
00:18:32.109 --> 00:18:35.890
or the piece the best way you can and also remember
00:18:35.890 --> 00:18:39.230
we didn't we just learn like last week from michael
00:18:39.230 --> 00:18:43.380
lewanski that who like 100 % credits to him.
00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:45.619
Like, he actually gave us too much information.
00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:47.720
It's like, you know, like, when you're born,
00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:49.900
but then you're given way too much information
00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:52.279
as, like, for an 18 -year -old into, like, a
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.619
baby, and, like, they'd be like, no. Like, what
00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:59.000
the heck? So what he said was, remember, editions
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.160
were political statements, right? Each edition
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.799
that was produced, right, by whoever it was,
00:19:04.819 --> 00:19:08.119
a musician or a musicologist, whatever edition
00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:12.539
it was. is literally stating out what is, they
00:19:12.609 --> 00:19:16.569
thought this, that was their opinion of the piece
00:19:16.569 --> 00:19:21.569
and notation wise, right? So it, I think it's
00:19:21.569 --> 00:19:24.670
kind of like, like almost like a problem too,
00:19:24.750 --> 00:19:27.250
because like once, once you give like musicologists,
00:19:27.309 --> 00:19:30.529
like all the, like if a publisher gives them
00:19:30.529 --> 00:19:32.250
musicologists, like do whatever you want with
00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:33.950
this version, we're not going to, there's no
00:19:33.950 --> 00:19:37.200
repercussions with it. And then they, right produce
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.880
what they made right and then they publish it
00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.440
and then you could get that like backlash from
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:45.160
musicians like what is this edition this is like
00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.519
horrible because musicians might not be able
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.500
to comprehend that um like what their musicologist
00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:54.539
thinks and if the musicologist isn't a performer
00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:56.799
themselves then there are certain aspects of
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.279
the score not necessarily just like the technical
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.970
things like for string players Bowling's really
00:20:01.970 --> 00:20:04.549
important. When players, it's like, okay, when
00:20:04.549 --> 00:20:07.390
am I going to take a breath or restart this articulation?
00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:10.650
But there are also very intricate kind of small
00:20:10.650 --> 00:20:13.750
things about performing music that you can't
00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:16.890
really explain or you can't really portray to
00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:19.869
somebody who hasn't performed it as well. Yeah.
00:20:20.470 --> 00:20:23.329
very small kind of exactly things so and i'm
00:20:23.329 --> 00:20:25.069
i'm playing the saint song concerto right now
00:20:25.069 --> 00:20:28.210
right and yeah i have the late leonard rose version
00:20:28.210 --> 00:20:30.910
the leonard rose um it's a new york edition extremely
00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:34.309
classic it's what most cellists use for young
00:20:34.309 --> 00:20:37.230
kid cellists but um what i found interesting
00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:39.980
was a lot of the fingerings might have been like
00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:43.240
what I consider weird. And it comes to that point
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.099
because when my teacher tells me, you can do
00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:47.920
this other fingering, it's kind of annoying in
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.519
my opinion, then that's when the weird factor
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:54.140
comes in to me. Because if we think that particular
00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:57.200
fingering or bowing was weird, we have to question
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:00.660
in the whole entire historical context. History
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.859
from when that piece was conceived to now, it's
00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:09.009
like, was that really something that, like everyone
00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:13.150
every musician should instinctly do um because
00:21:13.150 --> 00:21:15.349
i know i got some weird fingerings and bowings
00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:19.069
in in one section but like it's really leonard
00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:22.950
rose's mind rather than my mind um and how i
00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:25.589
play it because you can still historically in
00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:28.710
context historically play something right it's
00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:31.609
just not that specific fingering do you see that
00:21:31.609 --> 00:21:33.829
no exactly and there's that question too where
00:21:33.829 --> 00:21:36.930
how many performers have persevered through kind
00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:40.579
of awkward technical things just because it it
00:21:40.579 --> 00:21:43.599
was written for them by like an established musicologist
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:45.660
not necessarily that everything a musicologist
00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:48.579
writes is incorrect or not uh doesn't have merit
00:21:48.579 --> 00:21:51.180
but i think it is kind of a fine line and there
00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:53.380
needs to be some compromise i think between the
00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:57.819
performer and the the musicologist or sheet music
00:21:57.819 --> 00:22:01.359
if that makes sense yeah oh yeah yeah i don't
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:02.900
know it's a it's a thing well it's a long -winded
00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:05.380
thing and also just the side fact that a lot
00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:09.089
of musicians have a little bit of beef with the
00:22:09.089 --> 00:22:11.710
musicologists because it's just what they do.
00:22:11.769 --> 00:22:14.269
That's their job description versus what a musician's
00:22:14.269 --> 00:22:18.650
job description is. But it's all about bridging
00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:23.849
those two worlds together to create kind of like
00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:26.170
this collaborative effect where I think people
00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:28.910
just get together, actually, for real, and then
00:22:28.910 --> 00:22:32.410
make something better than just in those own
00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:35.769
fields. Oh, no, exactly. It feels like composition
00:22:35.769 --> 00:22:39.690
is kind of in the middle sometimes between those
00:22:39.690 --> 00:22:43.950
two things, but... Of course. Yeah. Composition
00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:47.220
is a whole other world itself. I mean, like,
00:22:47.259 --> 00:22:50.079
we were, you know, because I'm playing in my
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:51.980
youth orchestra, Joseph Schwantner's New Morning
00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:53.960
for the World, Daybreak of Freedom. It's just
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.220
a lot of MLK Jr. text. I think I mentioned it
00:22:56.220 --> 00:22:59.119
before. Yeah, I think I saw the music. Yeah,
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:02.500
so our conductor, Michael Lewonsky, he actually,
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.170
yeah, he kept saying, like, if... Like, one of
00:23:05.170 --> 00:23:08.990
the, like, basis of, like, performing and rehearsing
00:23:08.990 --> 00:23:11.390
contemporary music is actually taking it seriously.
00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:13.470
I know it's, you have to always take seriously
00:23:13.470 --> 00:23:18.430
for orchestra rehearsals. But I think, I think,
00:23:18.529 --> 00:23:21.890
oh, let's see. Because if you, if you don't,
00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:25.230
like, treat, like, pieces with respect, and this
00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:27.569
is in regards to everyone, every piece, right?
00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:29.250
Like, then you're going to have the composer
00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:33.119
actually hate himself or herself. Like. The composer's
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.099
not going to like himself or himself or herself
00:23:36.099 --> 00:23:39.259
once the performance arrives, especially with
00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:41.680
contemporary music, especially in this century,
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:45.519
right? So if they play something that the composer
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.380
just totally did not have in mind, that could
00:23:48.380 --> 00:23:51.559
produce a totally opposite effect, and we would
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:53.980
kind of feel bad for the composer. Oh, that's
00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:57.299
true. I think a lot of it is just kind of that
00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.779
whole saying where it's like, if you say you
00:23:59.779 --> 00:24:01.930
can't do it, you're not going to do it. But if
00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:04.269
you say you can do it, then you'll take action
00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:06.190
of some kind. I think it's the same thing with
00:24:06.190 --> 00:24:08.609
music, too. If you want to take on a piece or
00:24:08.609 --> 00:24:10.789
if you're challenged with a piece of music that's
00:24:10.789 --> 00:24:14.190
contemporary, kind of approaching it like you
00:24:14.190 --> 00:24:17.670
would sight reading a Tchaikovsky symphony in
00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:21.130
the same way, where you want to, like what you
00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:23.869
said, you want to make it sound in the intention
00:24:23.869 --> 00:24:26.029
of whatever the composer had in mind instead
00:24:26.029 --> 00:24:30.259
of just pushing through it. That's that's that's
00:24:30.259 --> 00:24:32.279
and he's and that's what he said is one of the
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.400
most biggest problems of performing and recording
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.579
contemporary music and how audiences perceive
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:41.279
it. Because if it's well rehearsed and well prepared
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.619
and well thought and well laid out in thought.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:47.000
Right. Then that's when audiences actually could
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.299
have an appreciation with it. And we've seen
00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:51.559
it happen. I mean, like, think of like, who are
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.640
the people today? I mean, Philip Glass. Right.
00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:57.809
I mean, he's a little bit older. Max Richter,
00:24:57.829 --> 00:25:00.829
if you've heard, and all those other composers,
00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:04.109
like, we've seen lots of success, but it's not
00:25:04.109 --> 00:25:07.470
without that, like, heavy, like, serious consideration
00:25:07.470 --> 00:25:10.569
of, like, putting yourself to the initiative
00:25:10.569 --> 00:25:13.910
to actually accomplish what this person's idea
00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:17.089
is. Yeah, I mean, even if it's not experimental
00:25:17.089 --> 00:25:19.670
music, I think just the fact that it's new sometimes
00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:23.049
can be challenging, because, like, there have
00:25:23.049 --> 00:25:24.789
been times in orchestra where we've been playing...
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.539
uh tonal music which is like very uh contemporary
00:25:28.539 --> 00:25:31.059
but it has that kind of old sound to it um but
00:25:31.059 --> 00:25:34.319
it's still still sort of uh treated like not
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.759
as not as important as the other works um and
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:39.519
i just think maybe it's the culture of performance
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:41.839
as we know it where a lot of it is like learning
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:43.660
your standard repertoire and your orchestral
00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:46.640
excerpts um and it makes sense if you want to
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.960
pursue a performance career and like orchestral
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.500
an orchestral setting or things like that um
00:25:53.289 --> 00:25:55.950
But I think equally as important is, say you
00:25:55.950 --> 00:25:58.349
get that orchestra job, you're going to be presented
00:25:58.349 --> 00:26:00.630
with pieces of music, whether it's contemporary
00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.269
or not, which might be challenging. You're going
00:26:03.269 --> 00:26:07.549
to have to kind of, I guess, learn to appreciate
00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:10.970
is one word, but to approach it with the same
00:26:10.970 --> 00:26:13.130
regard that you would like a Tchaikovsky symphony
00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:14.910
or Mozart symphony or something. And that is
00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:19.730
challenging, I will say. Yeah. But yeah, it's
00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:24.109
a learning goal. To wrap it up here, we should
00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:26.349
use our text editions more as the beginning of
00:26:26.349 --> 00:26:29.410
our investigations into a piece than as the version
00:26:29.410 --> 00:26:32.210
that we strictly have to adhere to. If we play
00:26:32.210 --> 00:26:34.309
them as the truth and nothing but the truth,
00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:38.029
we are certain to miss a great deal. I do think
00:26:38.029 --> 00:26:39.990
that as a responsible performer, especially,
00:26:40.089 --> 00:26:42.730
but not only of early music, should study the
00:26:42.730 --> 00:26:44.829
scientific editions and the critical comments,
00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:47.980
but also see the sources for himself. He can
00:26:47.980 --> 00:26:50.559
then formulate his own conclusions or preferences,
00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:52.900
discuss them with colleagues, and test them in
00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:56.079
rehearsals and concerts in order to come to valid
00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:59.579
but necessarily always temporary solutions. Each
00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:02.079
performance is unique, even for the very best
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.279
modern editions. The title of this essay holds
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:08.240
true. The notation is not the music. I think
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.779
we got, this is kind of like the, you know how
00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:13.039
in the fictional stories, like it goes up to
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.339
the peak, like the climax, and then it goes up
00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:16.960
to the rest. I think this is the climax right
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.660
here. This is the peak right here. Oh, my God.
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:21.660
It's like in a movie. Yeah. When they say the
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:23.859
movie title in, like, someone's line, and you're
00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:27.220
like, wait a minute, that's good. Yeah, exactly.
00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:31.319
That person's a jerk. Yeah. Horrible. I don't
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.539
like this. Yeah. So, like, I don't know if you
00:27:34.539 --> 00:27:39.210
use, like, Urtex editions that much. I did it
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:41.349
a little bit. But, like, right now, like, I'm
00:27:41.349 --> 00:27:44.690
just trying to get by with, like, editions and,
00:27:44.750 --> 00:27:46.809
like, stuff. Like, if I have to get things done
00:27:46.809 --> 00:27:49.170
fast, I just get, like, a regular edition. I
00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:50.890
don't take it seriously. I don't know about you.
00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:54.170
Oh, no, I'm the exact same. The only, like, professional
00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:56.049
scores that I have are pieces that I really,
00:27:56.089 --> 00:27:58.809
like, know I'll be working on full time. So I
00:27:58.809 --> 00:28:00.849
have a couple, like, piano scores that I really
00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:02.990
like. But otherwise, if I have to learn something
00:28:02.990 --> 00:28:06.269
for a gig or just for, like, a recital, I kind
00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:08.930
of... I kind of just get whatever score is available.
00:28:10.509 --> 00:28:15.089
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, whatever. I mean,
00:28:15.150 --> 00:28:18.150
unless like the exception, it's like 21st century,
00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:20.210
right? If it's 21st century or like maybe late
00:28:20.210 --> 00:28:22.430
20th century, there's probably one or two versions.
00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:24.589
And then that's way much, that's totally different.
00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:26.670
That defines the totally different situation
00:28:26.670 --> 00:28:30.849
you're in to like study or like conduct or get
00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:34.029
a, you know, rehearsal. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I was
00:28:34.029 --> 00:28:36.390
able. I think, I think I'm going to get a, uh,
00:28:36.569 --> 00:28:39.309
I'm, I'm going to get a copy very soon of the
00:28:39.309 --> 00:28:41.230
spirit. If you heard of the spirit away movie,
00:28:41.349 --> 00:28:44.650
the entire, like the spirit away suite and like,
00:28:44.670 --> 00:28:47.589
uh, and it's 10 movements and it's, it's, I want
00:28:47.589 --> 00:28:49.849
to just study kind of like how like, uh, Joe
00:28:49.849 --> 00:28:52.589
Hisaishi kind of like, you know, has like all
00:28:52.589 --> 00:28:55.009
sorts of like these ideas incorporating, um,
00:28:55.740 --> 00:28:58.200
cool elements and you know in the film in the
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:00.720
film there's lots of moment of ma it's an i think
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.519
a japanese term where uh there's just like they
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.039
use space and time to create silence right appropriate
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.519
moments of silence that just make the film like
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:14.019
really like like i don't know it stand out i
00:29:14.019 --> 00:29:17.240
don't know it's in a way that like it needs to
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.819
be there in order for for the flow to feel great
00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:23.200
i don't know but that's what that's i i thought
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:25.549
i like those like getting those scores and stuff.
00:29:25.589 --> 00:29:27.529
I have like rhapsody in blue. I have pictures
00:29:27.529 --> 00:29:29.869
at an exhibition too. I don't know. I moved.
00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:32.049
So all those are kind of like missing right now.
00:29:32.230 --> 00:29:33.730
You got it. You got to find them in the pile.
00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:36.609
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Actually, cause I'm in college
00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:39.069
right now, but I know, um, I brought some music
00:29:39.069 --> 00:29:41.130
with me, but a lot of it actually left behind.
00:29:41.170 --> 00:29:43.710
I probably will bring some back. Oh yeah, definitely.
00:29:44.109 --> 00:29:46.089
Yeah. Cause I'm realizing like, wow, I bought
00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:49.359
all these scores. And oddly enough, you'd think
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:50.859
because I'm going to music school, I'd bring
00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:52.980
them with me, but I did not. So I'll have to
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:56.380
do that. That's okay. That's great. You're going
00:29:56.380 --> 00:30:02.349
to inspire yourself more. Yes, exactly. The last
00:30:02.349 --> 00:30:05.730
note for this chapter. The way the notation is
00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:08.650
read and thus the performance itself also depends
00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:10.890
on the general cultural environment wherein the
00:30:10.890 --> 00:30:13.390
performer stands. Consequently, even if those
00:30:13.390 --> 00:30:16.190
topics seem to be only laterally linked to our
00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:18.750
study of the notation, the audiences as well
00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:20.750
as the performer's attitude must be considered.
00:30:20.910 --> 00:30:23.309
We must examine the difference between emotion
00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:25.769
and affect and their transmission toward the
00:30:25.769 --> 00:30:27.910
audience. And finally, the true -fold concept
00:30:27.910 --> 00:30:31.779
of authenticity must be discussed. yeah authenticity
00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:37.200
is i think kind of like a vague term um i i don't
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.640
think it's like really defined especially in
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.960
music so it's it's i think a lot of like you
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:45.240
know like these musicians like Kuijken um have
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.059
different philosophies of authenticity each of
00:30:48.059 --> 00:30:50.380
the brothers actually do have a little bit different
00:30:50.380 --> 00:30:52.420
version because you know they grew up with on
00:30:52.420 --> 00:30:54.079
different instrument and they have all have their
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.900
own opinions but authenticity like it's more
00:30:56.900 --> 00:31:00.549
kind of like um it's like a branch term like
00:31:00.549 --> 00:31:03.369
in philosophy like you can have your own like
00:31:03.369 --> 00:31:05.809
version of what you think authenticity is and
00:31:05.809 --> 00:31:07.609
the definitions for each person might be like
00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:11.869
close but like when you play something i think
00:31:11.869 --> 00:31:14.170
that's like says a lot when you when you like
00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:16.470
what is it action speed louder than works playing
00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:19.109
something speaks louder than your philosophy
00:31:19.109 --> 00:31:22.309
yeah well it's sort of like saying okay if uh
00:31:22.309 --> 00:31:25.369
leonard bernstein conducts mahler too and uh
00:31:25.369 --> 00:31:27.430
who's another conductor simon rattle conducts
00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:30.720
the same piece, smaller two, they're going to
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.779
be very different from each other, but is one
00:31:32.779 --> 00:31:36.180
any less authentic than the other? In terms of
00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:38.559
interpretation, in terms of how the orchestra
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.420
was sounding that day during the recording session,
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.740
all these things that really play into it, and
00:31:42.740 --> 00:31:45.079
you're never going to have... I mean, if Bach
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:49.779
wrote a piece in 1740 and played it on stage
00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:52.359
on a Tuesday, but then he played the exact same
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:54.660
piece again on a Wednesday, even that is going
00:31:54.660 --> 00:31:56.779
to be different than maybe what he even intended.
00:31:57.269 --> 00:32:00.309
when he wrote it by himself, and then two different
00:32:00.309 --> 00:32:02.630
performances. But is one any less authentic than
00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:06.089
the other? So, yeah, it's definitely, it's, authenticity
00:32:06.089 --> 00:32:08.829
is sort of a, I love what you said, it's a vague
00:32:08.829 --> 00:32:11.859
statement in the arts. Yeah, and then adding
00:32:11.859 --> 00:32:13.680
one more thing to that, there was another famous
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.779
Bach performer in the 60s through 90s was Karl
00:32:17.779 --> 00:32:20.240
Richter, and he's a German conductor. And he
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:25.000
was a very famous Bach revival conductor and
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.839
harpsichordist, organist. He was really talented.
00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:31.740
But it was not historically informed really at
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:33.400
that time, but it was Bach revival. He was an
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.680
important figure. But him saying in an interview
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:41.190
why he plays or conducts Bach works differently
00:32:41.190 --> 00:32:45.990
also. I think it's cool to hear musicians actually
00:32:45.990 --> 00:32:48.650
openly say that to audiences because audiences
00:32:48.650 --> 00:32:51.910
ultimately also might not know one difference
00:32:51.910 --> 00:32:54.950
from the other of a recording or piece. So it's
00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:58.710
great to hear that whenever they feel like saying
00:32:58.710 --> 00:33:02.250
so. It's also interesting. We talk about the
00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:04.809
Bach revival. I mean, okay, so Mendelssohn was
00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:06.990
kind of credited as reviving Bach back in the
00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:09.089
Romantic era. Of course. Which means that Bach
00:33:09.089 --> 00:33:11.329
was kind of like on the low for a couple decades
00:33:11.329 --> 00:33:13.589
by that point. So then when Mendelssohn was like,
00:33:13.710 --> 00:33:16.490
let's start playing Bach again, was his interpretation
00:33:16.490 --> 00:33:20.509
of Bach closer or was it even farther than what
00:33:20.509 --> 00:33:23.190
we would have imagined historical performance
00:33:23.190 --> 00:33:25.130
should be at the time? Considering he was like
00:33:25.130 --> 00:33:26.549
a Romantic composer and there were all these
00:33:26.549 --> 00:33:29.759
contradicting performance styles. beginning to
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:33.259
to happen so yeah i don't know that makes that
00:33:33.259 --> 00:33:36.619
produces another question itself also like when
00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:39.359
we did the shuman like recording for the intro
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.019
of this podcast it's like that's that's also
00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:46.059
another like um position to no exactly it's a
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:49.549
whole thing all right Now, we kind of naturally
00:33:49.549 --> 00:33:53.690
transition to the audience now. So everything
00:33:53.690 --> 00:33:56.509
was about the performer. Everything was about
00:33:56.509 --> 00:34:00.529
the musicologists and the editors and the people
00:34:00.529 --> 00:34:04.369
involved in the making of the music. But now
00:34:04.369 --> 00:34:06.789
we move on to people. So this is interesting.
00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:09.949
I mean, also, this is extremely universal to
00:34:09.949 --> 00:34:13.769
everyone, like you, me, literally everyone who
00:34:13.769 --> 00:34:15.920
just goes to a concert. Or maybe listens to the
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:18.179
music. Well, exactly. Yeah, the musicologists
00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:20.599
and the performers are also the audience sometimes.
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:23.820
So, you know, it's a whole thing. So, okay, the
00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:26.340
audience's attitude. Professional musicians were
00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:28.980
normally employed in the service of a court,
00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:31.199
town, or church and thus did not enjoy complete
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:34.280
independence. The character, the degree of education,
00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:36.519
musical or otherwise, and the social class of
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.780
the audience or employer and of the local etiquette
00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:40.820
and expectations inevitably had their effect
00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:43.550
on both the composer and the performer. In this
00:34:43.550 --> 00:34:45.889
respect, nothing has changed very much. I do
00:34:45.889 --> 00:34:48.710
not play similarly before a small gathering of
00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:51.210
connoisseurs as I would in a large concert hall
00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:54.250
with a non -specialist audience. I consider recording
00:34:54.250 --> 00:34:57.750
to be still another matter. There I am confronted
00:34:57.750 --> 00:35:00.570
by a lonely microphone as my sole link to a future
00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:02.849
and unknown audience. In a concert I can play
00:35:02.849 --> 00:35:04.650
in a more extreme, exuberant, and overwhelming
00:35:04.650 --> 00:35:07.570
way, but if I put on a CD, this is very likely
00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:10.739
to grow stale upon repeated hearing. I somehow
00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:12.920
prefer to leave some room for the CD listeners'
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.300
creative fantasy and participation. Some examples
00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:18.239
in order to illustrate how performers have dealt
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.860
with this, willingly or unwillingly, he says,
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:22.980
in the French musical style around the court
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:26.440
of Louis XVI, I display a virtuosity which is
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:30.599
not held in high esteem. It lacked the idiosyncratic
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.119
balance between noble simplicity and gratefulness
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.300
which is encountered in all French art forms
00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:38.710
of that era. François Couperin expresses the
00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:41.349
aristocratic attitude very eloquently and the
00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:46.190
preface to his pieces this is from 1730. okay
00:35:46.190 --> 00:35:50.289
i'll read the english he says i prefer very much
00:35:50.289 --> 00:35:52.469
that what touches me over that what surprises
00:35:52.469 --> 00:35:56.210
me i would consider uh sorry i would consider
00:35:56.210 --> 00:35:58.909
this as the credo of french musical music up
00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:02.670
until circa 1725 the concert spirituals which
00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:08.519
were held in the paris from 1725 onward created
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:10.659
a completely different context. They were public
00:36:10.659 --> 00:36:12.880
concerts in a larger venue for a paying audience.
00:36:13.099 --> 00:36:15.059
They were thus economically dependent on the
00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:17.539
audience's taste and appreciation, and this audience
00:36:17.539 --> 00:36:20.219
was no longer solely the court. Although originally
00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:22.380
set up in order to present religious music on
00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:24.460
the days where there was no opera performance,
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.860
they eventually offered many Italian and other
00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:29.619
foreign virtuosos a stage where they could shine,
00:36:29.739 --> 00:36:32.199
delight, and surprise their listeners. Without
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:34.500
originally having been set up for this, the concert
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.599
spirituals were instrumental in changing the
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:39.539
French musical taste. We know from numerous descriptions
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:41.619
that during an opera performance, the audience
00:36:41.619 --> 00:36:43.400
was not always as respectfully silent as they
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.840
are today. Audiences could be talking, eating,
00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:48.179
walking in and out, not unlike today's movie
00:36:48.179 --> 00:36:50.360
theater patrons, and occasionally, when the great
00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:52.539
star singer had a favorite aria, they would listen
00:36:52.539 --> 00:36:56.280
and cry for a repeat. The opera was just as much
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:58.579
more of a social as an artistic event. People
00:36:58.579 --> 00:37:01.059
went to the theater to be... to be seen as much
00:37:01.059 --> 00:37:04.119
as to see. On the other hand, libretti were sold
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.940
even in cantata services so that interested listeners
00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:09.380
could follow the text. By the way, that's crazy.
00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:11.199
So you're telling me that's like going to the
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.880
New York Opera and then singing along? Or like
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:18.039
even other things, like having a smoke, which
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:19.900
obviously is not allowed nowadays, but like,
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.300
you know, that's like, think about like all the
00:37:22.300 --> 00:37:24.969
other like background. stuff going on like at
00:37:24.969 --> 00:37:28.010
the time like it's equivalent to like think about
00:37:28.010 --> 00:37:30.590
having thinking like phones are appropriate like
00:37:30.590 --> 00:37:33.030
phone ringing like the ringtones are like that
00:37:33.030 --> 00:37:35.269
during a performance are appropriate you know
00:37:35.269 --> 00:37:38.909
just taking a call yeah three course meal oh
00:37:38.909 --> 00:37:43.570
my god bring this back oh god uh audience the
00:37:43.570 --> 00:37:45.650
audience is not always on a winning side though
00:37:45.650 --> 00:37:47.989
the existence of specific rules in private music
00:37:47.989 --> 00:37:50.960
societies such as the berlin Academien in the
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.300
second half of the 18th century is telling. Arrive
00:37:53.300 --> 00:37:55.539
on time, no smoking, no eating or drinking, no
00:37:55.539 --> 00:37:58.019
talking. Obviously conduct our conduct needed
00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:01.780
to be and could be enforced. Similarly, Spohr
00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:05.199
relates in his Selbist... Oh, I got that for
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:10.260
you. Selbsbiography. So, Selbsbiography. It's
00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:13.760
like a self... individual biography. I think
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:15.639
it means autobiography, in fact, then. Okay,
00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:20.750
okay. Published in 1860, 1861. that the Stuttgart
00:38:20.750 --> 00:38:23.190
court during concerts, the king and his entourage
00:38:23.190 --> 00:38:25.170
were accustomed to playing cards without paying
00:38:25.170 --> 00:38:27.530
much attention to the music, even without remaining
00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:30.130
silent. When Spohr was invited to perform there
00:38:30.130 --> 00:38:33.309
in 1807 or 1808, he was famous enough to require
00:38:33.309 --> 00:38:35.369
and obtain that the playing tables be pushed
00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:37.769
aside and that the audience admonish to keep
00:38:37.769 --> 00:38:40.849
silent and listen. And from more recent times,
00:38:40.969 --> 00:38:43.769
this is what Lord Reith, the first director general
00:38:43.769 --> 00:38:46.360
of the BBC, gave us a guideline to the young
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:48.760
musicologist Dennis Stevens joining the famous
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:53.199
PBC Third Program services around 1950. Quote,
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.280
we know precisely what the public wants, and
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.719
by heaven they're not going to get it. Oh, see
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:03.860
that? Okay, music politics again. You know what?
00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:07.179
Music politics is almost part of the art in itself.
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.780
It's been going on for so long. Yeah, it's insane.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.539
Again, we need to make an episode on it, but
00:39:13.539 --> 00:39:15.900
also it's like its own separate world. So we
00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:18.280
don't spread it out across multiple episodes,
00:39:18.380 --> 00:39:20.579
but it's just contained. It's like self contained
00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:24.619
in one episode and just, and then use that time
00:39:24.619 --> 00:39:27.699
to like seriously have a talk about it and maybe
00:39:27.699 --> 00:39:32.619
bring it up. But also that, that second to last
00:39:32.619 --> 00:39:35.320
point you brought up about background music,
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:38.179
right? Like they have people like playing stuff.
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:41.159
Maybe they even well rehearsed it. Like, for
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.820
a long time or whatever, and they're actively
00:39:43.820 --> 00:39:46.239
playing music, but they're playing cards in the
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:49.780
background. It's actually kind of surprising.
00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:52.900
Do you know Eric Satie? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:56.059
I think some of his music is a little bit underrated.
00:39:56.139 --> 00:39:58.260
I think I have to listen to a little bit more
00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:01.679
of his works. But I think people like Debussy
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.599
said he was, I think, he thought he was an innovative
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.820
composer, but you didn't think by standard he
00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:11.619
was good. The thing about Eric Satie's music
00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:15.639
is people consider it almost like grocery shopping
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.559
music. The thing is, the first time I think I
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:24.059
heard it was people saying it was often played
00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:26.079
in grocery stores. It's kind of like that vibe.
00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:30.619
Elevator music. Yes, that Satie composes, but
00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:34.260
it's not necessarily concert ready in some people's
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:38.269
minds or opinions. that's what I find like fascinating
00:40:38.269 --> 00:40:41.510
about that stuff too. It's like maybe Sati, I
00:40:41.510 --> 00:40:43.429
think Sati could be taken a little bit more seriously.
00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:45.989
Also with his personality, some people find it
00:40:45.989 --> 00:40:49.329
hard to like take it seriously. Cause Sati was
00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:53.710
a little bit weird. I think he like, yeah. Um,
00:40:53.750 --> 00:40:55.829
I think like, uh, this actually kind of ties
00:40:55.829 --> 00:40:58.730
into, uh, contemporary music too. There's this
00:40:58.730 --> 00:41:02.369
argument I've heard where, uh, is it modern or
00:41:02.369 --> 00:41:05.889
is it music or is it modern art? And I think
00:41:05.889 --> 00:41:07.650
actually Sati is kind of an early example of
00:41:07.650 --> 00:41:09.449
this, where there's this side of people where
00:41:09.449 --> 00:41:12.090
it's like, oh no, it should be considered a part
00:41:12.090 --> 00:41:14.309
of the classical music canon. But then other
00:41:14.309 --> 00:41:16.889
people are like, it should actually be its own
00:41:16.889 --> 00:41:20.010
separate thing. It's not really, you know, what
00:41:20.010 --> 00:41:22.610
Debussy, it's not something like that. It's not
00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:27.110
of that caliber, but it's also not exactly nothing.
00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:29.690
So it kind of falls into its own artistic...
00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:33.500
idea it's like an art piece an art installation
00:41:33.500 --> 00:41:37.360
yeah and even like at the what is it the micro
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:40.320
level like for like music right film music and
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:45.079
then concert music and symphonic stuff like i
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.880
i think people like think the hierarchy is a
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:49.940
little bit different there too but i don't think
00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:52.599
it should be i think it could be almost equally
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:56.199
the same level i i kind of hold like an equally
00:41:56.199 --> 00:42:00.190
philosophically philosophy I really do care about,
00:42:00.210 --> 00:42:02.670
like, what each thing is said, but the maybe
00:42:02.670 --> 00:42:06.309
overall and historical significance as a whole,
00:42:06.329 --> 00:42:09.570
then people might not consider as extremely important.
00:42:09.690 --> 00:42:12.429
I do, like, acknowledge that, so that's how I
00:42:12.429 --> 00:42:16.429
see the, like, you know, works. But, yeah, that's...
00:42:16.429 --> 00:42:19.309
No, for sure. I like how this Mr. Kuijken was,
00:42:19.429 --> 00:42:21.650
like, Barthold Kuijken was kind of, like, just...
00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:24.460
laying out some random stuff on the audience
00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:27.360
this was this was just like uh you know stopping
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.179
by a veggie farm and just like watching all the
00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:32.840
looking at all the veggies that are being offered
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:38.340
right now yeah because and also maybe i want
00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:41.599
to add one more thing um audience attitude is
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.039
interesting because it's not only like just performances
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.019
right it's recordings recordings that gets really
00:42:47.019 --> 00:42:50.530
interesting because What was the first way you
00:42:50.530 --> 00:42:53.190
could actually listen to music? It was actually
00:42:53.190 --> 00:42:55.909
the phonograph, right? Right, right. Alexander
00:42:55.909 --> 00:42:58.710
Graham Bell, right? Thanks to him. And then people
00:42:58.710 --> 00:43:00.610
from Germany actually made it better, and then
00:43:00.610 --> 00:43:02.849
they made a gramophone, and then they made a
00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:05.530
vinyl player, record player, and all that stuff.
00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:09.510
So that was very interesting, because I want
00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:11.670
to talk a little bit about sound, if you don't
00:43:11.670 --> 00:43:14.110
mind. Yeah, go ahead. Sound was very interesting.
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:18.960
there's I don't know like even 21st century audience
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:23.239
like 21st century listeners right even just it
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:24.900
doesn't matter what kind of vinyl you put on
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:28.079
like Taylor Swift for example but like the think
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:29.679
about the quality you're getting out of that
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:34.280
like the vinyl is actually actually what people
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:37.559
think is like better than what people think like
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:42.050
a CD might give or um a cassette recorder yeah
00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:45.309
and cassette recorders actually are kind of rad
00:43:45.309 --> 00:43:47.289
though like it doesn't matter how good the quality
00:43:47.289 --> 00:43:50.030
is it's actually kind of cool to have one i think
00:43:50.030 --> 00:43:53.489
there are um like yoyama cassettes out there
00:43:53.489 --> 00:43:56.190
too that's interesting i i don't have a player
00:43:56.190 --> 00:43:58.650
so i don't i don't have any opinion on that but
00:43:58.650 --> 00:44:00.829
like i think i'm kind of a phase for a time where
00:44:00.829 --> 00:44:02.690
everyone it was like oh it's going to be vinyl
00:44:02.690 --> 00:44:04.869
it's going to be cds or cassettes um so it's
00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:07.340
like this trinity of different listening devices
00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:10.599
so it's like we're still gonna be of course and
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.940
then cds are the most common medium i think uh
00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:18.219
people yeah like there's people there's regular
00:44:18.219 --> 00:44:20.320
people who just like collect all those classical
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:22.980
music and then there's audiophiles audiophiles
00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:25.820
are the people who literally spend like thousands
00:44:25.820 --> 00:44:29.019
of dollars on like players and stereo amplifiers
00:44:29.019 --> 00:44:31.460
to just like I'm telling you, people in Japan,
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:33.380
like, they actually, like, have all this stuff.
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:36.579
And it's, like, for what? Just for putting a
00:44:36.579 --> 00:44:39.639
$5 CD in and then, like, having all this, like,
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:44.199
audio quality, like, debate, you know, on, like,
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.679
saying, yeah. It's like Dave Hurwitz. Oh, God.
00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:50.599
I don't even know what that guy has. All I know
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.460
is he has, like, thousands of CDs on shelves.
00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:55.619
That's all. He must have something pretty good,
00:44:55.639 --> 00:44:57.840
though. I think he's been collecting since he
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.719
was, like. 12 or something. Oh, God. He had a
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:02.460
video where it was, like, his first CDs or his
00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:05.400
first CDs. He must have, yeah. Like, it's crazy.
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:08.099
He must have got a good, like, job or something
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:10.699
like that to be buying all those CDs, like, and
00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:13.840
also, like, the cost of, like, how much a CD,
00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:16.000
like, costs and then, like, nowadays it's, like,
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:18.400
more and you have to pay for shipping and you
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:21.380
have to pay for tax, like, because now we have
00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:24.579
to find more rare CDs. like for specific recordings
00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:26.880
and ensembles and we don't like know like we
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.119
can't get them locally anymore and there's so
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:32.099
many stuff changed like oh exactly i mean also
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:35.059
so today if something comes out uh usually you
00:45:35.059 --> 00:45:36.980
can find it on youtube or spotify or something
00:45:36.980 --> 00:45:39.380
like that listen to it first and then after the
00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:41.639
fact you can buy the cd if you want a physical
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:46.099
copy back in in her with his early days like
00:45:46.099 --> 00:45:48.079
in the 70s or whatever you'd have to kind of
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:51.630
risk it and just buy a recording maybe buy like
00:45:51.630 --> 00:45:53.969
a conductor or composer that you're not familiar
00:45:53.969 --> 00:45:56.769
with and just just test it out which means like
00:45:56.769 --> 00:45:58.869
if you don't like it you're kind of stuck with
00:45:58.869 --> 00:46:00.690
it unless you can return it but i don't know
00:46:00.690 --> 00:46:03.329
what that was like back in the day but you know
00:46:03.329 --> 00:46:05.329
it'd be cool actually of library i don't know
00:46:05.329 --> 00:46:07.429
but libraries it'd be kind of troubling because
00:46:07.429 --> 00:46:10.550
they do have cd and vinyl catalogs but imagine
00:46:10.550 --> 00:46:13.210
like you're just asking them to buy like there's
00:46:13.210 --> 00:46:15.269
a thing in libraries you can request right a
00:46:15.269 --> 00:46:17.849
purchase yeah or even a shop at a bookstore but
00:46:17.849 --> 00:46:20.210
like imagine you just like get you're flooding
00:46:20.210 --> 00:46:22.769
their like requests with only like cds instead
00:46:22.769 --> 00:46:25.170
of books like can you get me this can you give
00:46:25.170 --> 00:46:27.449
me that can you give me this one from they're
00:46:27.449 --> 00:46:31.679
like oh i don't know You know, it's kind of funny.
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:34.079
The whole ring cycle, the whole ring cycle on
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.539
my front door. Yeah, exactly. Actually, what's
00:46:37.539 --> 00:46:39.420
interesting. Cause I, okay. I'm a little bit
00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:41.699
of a procrastinator with this, but I have the,
00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.059
the Carl Richter, um, Richter, uh, CD set. And
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:48.340
it's like, how many, it's like over like 70 CDs.
00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:51.880
It's a lot, but yeah, it's basically all of his,
00:46:51.940 --> 00:46:55.460
his entire career. recording player in a big
00:46:55.460 --> 00:46:57.820
box. Actually, I'll take a picture of you. I'll
00:46:57.820 --> 00:47:00.099
take your picture and I'll show you that. But
00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:03.380
it's a Deutsche Grammophon box for listeners
00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:05.059
right now. If you can search it out, it's just
00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:07.139
called Karl Richter Deutsche Grammophon and it
00:47:07.139 --> 00:47:10.320
has over 70 CDs. But what's interesting is some
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:15.019
of those discs, they actually use a Blu -ray
00:47:15.019 --> 00:47:19.320
disc to convey the audio. So it's kind of weird,
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.340
right? You put a Blu -ray disc because... Their
00:47:22.340 --> 00:47:25.199
argument was it's better sound, apparently, but
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:27.719
I don't know exactly too much about it. Maybe
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:31.139
even lesser compression. No compression at all,
00:47:31.179 --> 00:47:34.059
but it's like all that is put into a Blu -ray
00:47:34.059 --> 00:47:37.099
disc instead. It's kind of interesting, but I
00:47:37.099 --> 00:47:39.480
did put it in the Blu -ray. I didn't really sound
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:42.119
the difference. I have to check because I think
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:44.539
the only way to put that in control variable
00:47:44.539 --> 00:47:47.570
as an experiment is like... Actually getting
00:47:47.570 --> 00:47:51.110
like really nicer amp stereo amplifiers and that's
00:47:51.110 --> 00:47:53.670
something I have to like yet to see so I think
00:47:53.670 --> 00:47:55.929
it's it's kind of interesting To like really
00:47:55.929 --> 00:47:58.230
really hear the difference between them. Um,
00:47:58.250 --> 00:48:01.010
yeah, I like, you know, I feel like oh actually
00:48:01.010 --> 00:48:03.230
This is a side tangent you ever find a recording
00:48:03.230 --> 00:48:05.369
of a piece that you really like but it's recorded
00:48:05.369 --> 00:48:12.869
in like 1930 And MPOV or teacher tells you to
00:48:13.369 --> 00:48:17.269
Get with it. Get by with it. They're like, this
00:48:17.269 --> 00:48:19.969
is a great recording. You must respect. Like,
00:48:19.969 --> 00:48:22.610
persevere. And I do. I mean, some of those recordings
00:48:22.610 --> 00:48:25.510
are great. I mean, like, Pablo Casals, the first
00:48:25.510 --> 00:48:28.510
cello suites, I think that was like 1939 in Paris,
00:48:28.550 --> 00:48:33.289
around that time. And those are so... They're
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:38.159
extremely, like, humanistic. Like, I know...
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:42.719
I'm kind of like... Not exactly like humanist,
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.320
but I kind of like see a lot of those values,
00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:48.780
but there's so much humanism inside like Pablo
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:51.380
Casals first recording. It's not just playing
00:48:51.380 --> 00:48:54.699
Bach. It's also making it musical, right? Not
00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:57.699
only musical, but also humanistic. It's so, it's
00:48:57.699 --> 00:49:00.659
so refreshing to hear after all these thousands,
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:02.420
like hundreds of recordings that got produced
00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:05.940
afterwards. So it's, yeah, everything starts
00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:08.000
to sound the same after a while too. I mean,
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:11.230
especially when he's, Major competitions happen.
00:49:11.590 --> 00:49:14.469
Sometimes I know it is great and as each of the
00:49:14.469 --> 00:49:16.809
musicians are who participate in all these different
00:49:16.809 --> 00:49:20.440
Instrumentation things, but I don't know. I feel
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:23.260
like people are kind of scared to bring their
00:49:23.260 --> 00:49:27.519
own Humanistic interpretations of two pieces
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.039
because they make it sound the exact same way
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.460
if you have yo -yo Ma plays a recording that
00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:34.739
sounds like this or it's a Coleman plays a recording
00:49:34.739 --> 00:49:38.719
that sounds like that I mean It's really awesome
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.380
because they kind of made the recording their
00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:43.480
own. They made the piece their own. But then
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:46.019
you have sort of this lineage of cellists, violinists,
00:49:46.059 --> 00:49:49.099
pianists who all kind of replicate each other.
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.360
They do. And you can tell. You can actually kind
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:54.099
of tell with the younger musicians especially.
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.400
But yeah, I don't know. Like I know, but like
00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.260
Casals and Yo -Yo Ma are actually kind of similar.
00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:02.559
If you just cross -refer all to like all the
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:04.760
cello suite stuff. It's actually kind of similar.
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.260
And I've also noticed it in the violin works
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:12.280
for Bach, too. Like his brother, Bartolkeix's
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.559
brother, Sigismund, who recorded the Bach Violin
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.920
Concerto's E major, if you know that one. Yeah,
00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:21.320
yeah. The E major is so cool to play, too, even
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:22.900
if you're just in continuing. I don't know. I
00:50:22.900 --> 00:50:24.800
kind of listen to it a lot. But his student.
00:50:25.409 --> 00:50:29.469
or his pupil, Jean Lamont. She was a very famous
00:50:29.469 --> 00:50:32.030
Baroque violinist in Canada. She led the Toffolo
00:50:32.030 --> 00:50:34.230
Music Ensemble, if you've heard of that. But
00:50:34.230 --> 00:50:37.550
she, if you listen to her recording, like, even,
00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:39.190
like, learning from people, like, you learn so
00:50:39.190 --> 00:50:41.949
much, like, similar stuff, material, like, that
00:50:41.949 --> 00:50:44.670
you're, the spirit of that, like, teacher is
00:50:44.670 --> 00:50:47.010
kind of, like, in that person's, like, musician's
00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:50.300
soul. Yeah, so. Exactly like with that, they
00:50:50.300 --> 00:50:55.320
kind of share similar characteristics as centuries
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:59.780
or dozens of years pass. Yeah, it's a lineage.
00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:02.619
It really is. Especially what's crazy about classical
00:51:02.619 --> 00:51:06.380
music is that even though we hear Mozart or Beethoven,
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:07.960
we think, wow, that's a really long time ago.
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.320
Sometimes, because it's a really small world
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.179
in classical music, your teacher, your teacher's
00:51:15.179 --> 00:51:17.579
teacher's teacher. or whatever could literally
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:21.070
have been taught by like their student could
00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:23.690
have been taught by them. Yeah, exactly. It's
00:51:23.690 --> 00:51:26.699
crazy. It's crazy. That's, that's like the cool
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:29.780
part too. I mean, I was looking at like, uh,
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:31.960
I know it's kind of irrelevant, but I was looking,
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:33.920
I was watching this movie called whisper of the
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.980
heart. It's, it's a very, uh, people consider
00:51:36.980 --> 00:51:40.780
it's a very like a lighthearted movie. Um, it's,
00:51:40.780 --> 00:51:43.480
it's, it's kind of like a romance and a little
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:46.460
bit of a, like a adventure story of, of a girl
00:51:46.460 --> 00:51:49.480
named shizuku and she kind of like um she loves
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:53.000
writing right and she she meets a boy called
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:56.280
uh saiji amazawa who's a violin maker and you
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.579
know she she had worries that she kind of like
00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:00.460
he was kind of like way accomplished than her
00:52:00.460 --> 00:52:02.920
he knows all about this stuff he likes reading
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:06.039
books too and it was it was interesting because
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:10.719
they um that movie the What was it? The music
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:13.099
that was involved. There was a lot of Baroque
00:52:13.099 --> 00:52:14.840
instruments incorporated. It's really interesting.
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.639
You should check it out. But there was a viola
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:20.320
da gamba incorporated. And the gamba player actually...
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.980
I forgot his name, but he was... It was Japanese,
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.039
right? From Studio Ghibli. And he actually studied
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:30.139
with Wieland Kuijken . So the brother of this guy.
00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:32.780
Isn't that crazy? What the heck? It's such a
00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:36.539
small world. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And you know, that
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:38.820
movie was actually also shooting for like...
00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:42.579
like stuff like authenticity right um actually
00:52:42.579 --> 00:52:45.059
interestingly in that that movie translation
00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:47.179
the japanese name was actually if you listen
00:52:47.179 --> 00:52:49.800
closely i think that was what it's called and
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.840
then american audiences known as as whisper of
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:55.699
the heart so okay it's also just like also the
00:52:55.699 --> 00:52:59.699
theme of like following um really closely to
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:03.199
what you want to like um what you desire to be
00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:07.280
achieved and kind of like your own like um uh,
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:11.480
mind and like individual self, not like telling,
00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:14.320
not being following like the traditional path
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:17.460
of like where everyone else is going. Not that
00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:19.440
you have to like veer off with it, but that's
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:21.840
kind of like the, the theme I saw there. And
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.079
I think that can apply a lot with like performance
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:27.639
with. Definitely. Yeah. Paving your own, your,
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.880
your own way. I think, um, it's just the culture
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.139
of performance a lot is if the sole purpose of
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:38.110
performing is to compete. then you're not going
00:53:38.110 --> 00:53:42.469
to really get necessarily the innovation that
00:53:42.469 --> 00:53:47.269
you want. But that's a whole other can of worms,
00:53:47.329 --> 00:53:49.190
actually. Yeah, it is. There you go, there you
00:53:49.190 --> 00:53:52.409
go. I mean, all right. Maybe we could read just
00:53:52.409 --> 00:53:54.550
a little bit of the performer's attitude. So
00:53:54.550 --> 00:53:56.670
now we're switching back. So it was like everything
00:53:56.670 --> 00:53:58.630
was about the performer. Then it goes back to
00:53:58.630 --> 00:54:00.590
a little bit of the audience. Now we're back
00:54:00.590 --> 00:54:02.969
to the performer. Back to the performer. Of course.
00:54:03.070 --> 00:54:06.199
Here we go. All right. So very often musicians
00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:08.179
from earlier centuries performed in situations
00:54:08.179 --> 00:54:10.800
that would not inspire envy today during meals,
00:54:10.900 --> 00:54:13.519
receptions and balls in the open air on the water.
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:15.199
Handel. That's a handle reference right there.
00:54:15.260 --> 00:54:18.539
Yes, obviously. Perfect. Merely as background
00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:21.159
noise. Wow. That's kind of sad, too. I mean,
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:26.829
like also the Messiah. That one was I'm visualizing
00:54:26.829 --> 00:54:29.230
in Ireland. Actually, it was I think it was performed
00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:31.449
in Ireland. I don't know if it was Dublin. But
00:54:31.449 --> 00:54:33.769
it was it was interesting because like if you're
00:54:33.769 --> 00:54:35.510
right there standing at the charity concert,
00:54:35.630 --> 00:54:38.150
it's just like people are probably just like
00:54:38.150 --> 00:54:41.150
actively talking and just like doing saying also
00:54:41.150 --> 00:54:43.809
while they were performing Hallelujah and all
00:54:43.809 --> 00:54:47.389
that. The movements. Yeah. Like being at the
00:54:47.389 --> 00:54:49.190
premiere of Handel's Messiah and you're just
00:54:49.190 --> 00:54:51.929
like dilly dallying in the audience. Yeah, exactly.
00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:53.909
And that's I mean, that's kind of true, too,
00:54:53.969 --> 00:54:56.210
because the music of the Baroque Ensemble in
00:54:56.210 --> 00:54:59.849
Chicago performs the what is it? The Messiah
00:54:59.849 --> 00:55:03.170
on the water, I think. Water music. I think they
00:55:03.170 --> 00:55:05.510
do water music. I think they have done Messiah
00:55:05.510 --> 00:55:09.730
on water on the Michigan River. That's interesting.
00:55:10.030 --> 00:55:13.269
If you think about it, really think about it,
00:55:13.309 --> 00:55:15.329
the people around there also are just active
00:55:15.329 --> 00:55:19.690
noise. Cars passing by. People are walking by.
00:55:20.289 --> 00:55:25.800
They're not obligated. obligated to watch it
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.920
right so that's the thing it's like you you have
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:29.940
active noise still today it's just in different
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:33.860
forms i think no exactly that is a historical
00:55:33.860 --> 00:55:38.199
performance yes we made a maybe another small
00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:42.539
connection okay so i suppose not everybody reacted
00:55:42.539 --> 00:55:44.849
in the same way to these circumstances probably
00:55:44.849 --> 00:55:47.889
somewhat disengaged and wanted to do nothing
00:55:47.889 --> 00:55:50.030
more than their duty, while others tried to attract
00:55:50.030 --> 00:55:52.210
attention nevertheless, by singing or playing
00:55:52.210 --> 00:55:55.230
in a flashy virtuoso style, loud and full of
00:55:55.230 --> 00:55:58.309
many grand gestures. Obviously, the standard
00:55:58.309 --> 00:56:02.409
performer does not and did not exist. His temperament,
00:56:02.510 --> 00:56:04.829
capabilities, and ambition, his education within
00:56:04.829 --> 00:56:07.289
specific conventions of culture and social class,
00:56:07.389 --> 00:56:09.690
and his particular function and performance context
00:56:09.690 --> 00:56:12.309
will have shaped his attitude. If he is only
00:56:12.309 --> 00:56:14.670
a performer, he might be less adventurous or
00:56:14.670 --> 00:56:16.949
less successful in adding his own layer of interpretation
00:56:16.949 --> 00:56:19.510
to an existing piece than if he is a competent
00:56:19.510 --> 00:56:22.489
composer able to expand upon his works or remodel
00:56:22.489 --> 00:56:24.409
other people's compositions. That's actually
00:56:24.409 --> 00:56:27.329
very diverse, right? It's the same thing as if
00:56:27.329 --> 00:56:29.550
you only play one instrument, which I hope to
00:56:29.550 --> 00:56:32.579
learn more piano soon. that's the thing right
00:56:32.579 --> 00:56:37.280
like if being a composer and a uh what is a performer
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.059
like like you like you are like you you definitely
00:56:40.059 --> 00:56:44.820
get more like um experience and um not like not
00:56:44.820 --> 00:56:47.760
what is it i guess say crossroads of knowledge
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:50.619
to choose from like when you're especially making
00:56:50.619 --> 00:56:53.500
artistic decisions and making music do you see
00:56:53.500 --> 00:56:56.440
yeah because they're kind of like um it's the
00:56:56.440 --> 00:56:58.599
same thing but one is flipped you know putting
00:56:59.230 --> 00:57:01.449
music on a page versus pulling the music out
00:57:01.449 --> 00:57:06.800
of the page. Right. So it's interesting to look
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:08.679
at the quite complicated relationship between
00:57:08.679 --> 00:57:11.019
the three poles upon which music rests, composer,
00:57:11.260 --> 00:57:13.539
performer, and audience. How did composers and
00:57:13.539 --> 00:57:15.699
audiences expect musicians to act, read, and
00:57:15.699 --> 00:57:18.619
execute the music? Were they to stay faithful
00:57:18.619 --> 00:57:22.239
to the notation or to freely expand it through
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.420
adding their own ornaments and expressive devices?
00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:28.449
Let us examine the performer's rights. responsibilities
00:57:28.449 --> 00:57:30.750
and duties from different angles and i think
00:57:30.750 --> 00:57:34.900
we'll do we'll read a right now um Let's see.
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:36.940
The amateur versus the professional. This is
00:57:36.940 --> 00:57:40.320
interesting. I can already tell. Basically, and
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:42.460
allowing for exceptions today as well as in earlier
00:57:42.460 --> 00:57:44.539
times, the amateur plays for his own pleasure
00:57:44.539 --> 00:57:47.039
and has no responsibilities toward anybody. The
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:49.119
composer is mostly not present, and if someone
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:51.639
else wants to listen, that is entirely the listener's
00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:53.739
problem. Yeah, this reminds me of all the rich
00:57:53.739 --> 00:57:56.000
billionaires and the millionaires who own the
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.119
Stradivarius instruments and they just play for
00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:00.340
pleasure. I mean, it's not at that extent, too.
00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:05.199
It's also like people who... don't like, I guess
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:07.119
they don't, they're not like a serious musician.
00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:10.719
Maybe you are like, I don't know, like a doctor
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:13.719
or like someone who just has a regular job and
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:16.440
you still like music, right? So this is the type
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.800
of person to be more specific. Yeah, no, exactly.
00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:23.079
Yeah. The kind of, well, I don't want to say
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:28.130
kind of, the music appreciator per se. Yes, of
00:58:28.130 --> 00:58:30.670
course. Yeah. One could say that the amateur
00:58:30.670 --> 00:58:32.829
plays with a profoundly egotistical attitude.
00:58:33.369 --> 00:58:35.929
as much as a consumer as any CD buyer or concertgoer.
00:58:36.269 --> 00:58:38.510
Even when he occasionally plays before an audience,
00:58:38.550 --> 00:58:40.570
he will generally be more focused on his personal
00:58:40.570 --> 00:58:43.110
satisfaction of playing in public, like a professional,
00:58:43.230 --> 00:58:45.630
quote -unquote, than on adequate rendering of
00:58:45.630 --> 00:58:47.170
the score or the interaction with the listeners.
00:58:47.530 --> 00:58:49.730
The professional, on the contrary, plays for
00:58:49.730 --> 00:58:52.849
other people's pleasure, his audience's. They
00:58:52.849 --> 00:58:54.949
bought a ticket, dressed up, traveled to the
00:58:54.949 --> 00:58:57.030
concert venue, and they went to enjoy the concert,
00:58:57.269 --> 00:59:01.010
um, or event. Clearly, this gives the performer
00:59:01.010 --> 00:59:03.150
another heavier responsibility. Just like any
00:59:03.150 --> 00:59:05.610
salesman, he will be identified with the quality
00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:07.989
of his product. Of course, though the professional
00:59:07.989 --> 00:59:10.150
performer's private pleasure is not his main
00:59:10.150 --> 00:59:12.170
goal, if he takes no pleasure in his job, he
00:59:12.170 --> 00:59:14.269
will soon burn out, eventually become bitter
00:59:14.269 --> 00:59:16.449
and unhappy, disenchanted and disenchanting,
00:59:16.530 --> 00:59:18.809
and will sooner or later, hopefully sooner, stop
00:59:18.809 --> 00:59:21.110
performing altogether. Wow, that's kind of a
00:59:21.110 --> 00:59:25.409
little harsh though, too. Do you know anyone
00:59:25.409 --> 00:59:27.869
like any like actually famous like musicians
00:59:27.869 --> 00:59:30.269
who kind of like did that? I don't know if like
00:59:30.269 --> 00:59:34.289
like burnout like maybe burnout Like people who
00:59:34.289 --> 00:59:36.429
didn't like really enjoy their job that much.
00:59:36.570 --> 00:59:40.429
I mean, it's kind of hard to say that too Yeah,
00:59:40.469 --> 00:59:42.949
I think there are moments I kind of like that
00:59:42.949 --> 00:59:45.210
question of what makes a really great concert
00:59:45.210 --> 00:59:48.309
versus just a run -of -the -mill concert Um,
00:59:48.429 --> 00:59:51.050
and I think that's sort of just a minor example,
00:59:51.250 --> 00:59:53.530
but if a soloist comes up and plays a concerto
00:59:54.329 --> 00:59:57.829
Um, you can tell I think when the performer really
00:59:57.829 --> 01:00:00.489
really is in the moment and is getting something
01:00:00.489 --> 01:00:02.690
from it and actually has sort of an improvisational
01:00:02.690 --> 01:00:06.090
Energy to them versus when they're just playing
01:00:06.090 --> 01:00:08.389
like from muscle memory and they just kind of
01:00:08.389 --> 01:00:13.389
do it and then bow and then okay Bye Great concerts,
01:00:13.550 --> 01:00:17.170
but those those separate things those like spiritual
01:00:17.170 --> 01:00:20.869
energetic things Really really define a great
01:00:20.869 --> 01:00:23.349
concert from just like a good concert Yeah, and
01:00:23.349 --> 01:00:26.210
it's only through performance. It's also recordings
01:00:26.210 --> 01:00:29.889
I hear too, right? Oh, yeah. You might hear critics
01:00:29.889 --> 01:00:33.489
say, oh, this so -and -so XYZ must not have been
01:00:33.489 --> 01:00:36.630
at his best during that time. Or XYZ might have
01:00:36.630 --> 01:00:38.769
had no clue what he was doing here or there.
01:00:38.869 --> 01:00:43.690
That's why the artistry is kind of like, ah,
01:00:43.789 --> 01:00:47.969
meh, right? So it's also that too. You can definitely
01:00:47.969 --> 01:00:52.269
see it in sequences. of people's discography,
01:00:52.429 --> 01:00:56.269
maybe over time. Because people grow in the very
01:00:56.269 --> 01:00:59.469
end, artistically or physically, everything.
01:01:00.030 --> 01:01:03.010
No, exactly, yeah, yeah. They adapt their playing.
01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:06.130
Yeah. And definitely these historical performers
01:01:06.130 --> 01:01:09.889
like Kuijken, they actually kind of grew too. If
01:01:09.889 --> 01:01:13.309
you listen to the more recent recordings of different
01:01:13.309 --> 01:01:15.929
versions of Bach flute sonatas or whatever, they're
01:01:15.929 --> 01:01:19.809
definitely way more, I don't know. They definitely
01:01:19.809 --> 01:01:22.829
have a more distinct, like, philosophy in its
01:01:22.829 --> 01:01:24.989
own, like, rather than the philosophy of what
01:01:24.989 --> 01:01:28.239
they held, like, 30 years ago. Conductors are
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:29.960
like that, too. I mean, you'll have, like, one
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:31.960
recording from 1960 and then another one from
01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:33.800
the 90s. And it's like, whoa, what the heck?
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:38.000
The switch -up is crazy. Yeah, obviously. All
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:40.920
right, so to wrap it up, it is the professional
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.320
musician who interests us here. He often seems
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:45.159
to balance on a tightrope stretch between the
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:46.840
audience on one side and the composer on the
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:49.920
other. Both sides need him. Composers need performers
01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:52.420
in order for their music to be heard, and listeners
01:01:52.420 --> 01:01:54.360
require performances in order to hear what the
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:57.099
composer has written. Most audiences cannot read
01:01:57.099 --> 01:01:59.239
a musical score and hear it immediately and accurately
01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:01.719
in the mind's ear. Performers are dependent on
01:02:01.719 --> 01:02:04.400
both composers and audiences. Most do not compose
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:06.760
their own music, therefore they need somebody
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:09.519
else to write it for them. Performers also need
01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:12.320
the audience. They want to be on stage and feel
01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:14.019
the electrifying contact with their listeners.
01:02:14.119 --> 01:02:16.360
They move the emotions of their listeners and
01:02:16.360 --> 01:02:19.300
hope in return to be admired by them. I think
01:02:19.300 --> 01:02:27.190
that's a great philosophy of its own. Yeah, very
01:02:27.190 --> 01:02:32.909
interesting look. And it is true. It is very
01:02:32.909 --> 01:02:35.750
true. I think oftentimes we get so caught up
01:02:35.750 --> 01:02:39.150
in our own things, like just practicing or just
01:02:39.150 --> 01:02:42.110
musicologists just listening to music. Where
01:02:42.110 --> 01:02:43.650
sometimes we forget, it's like, oh, wow, it's
01:02:43.650 --> 01:02:47.409
actually a whole ecosystem of the arts. Yeah.
01:02:47.530 --> 01:02:51.530
So it cleanly lays out the role of the composer,
01:02:51.530 --> 01:02:54.250
performer and the audience member. Right. And
01:02:54.250 --> 01:02:57.210
each and every one of them is extremely important
01:02:57.210 --> 01:02:59.989
right now. Like for us, we might think performer.
01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:03.570
And I think like right now, just for like student
01:03:03.570 --> 01:03:05.349
musicians, if you think about it, like now that
01:03:05.349 --> 01:03:07.150
I think about it, performers might be the only
01:03:07.150 --> 01:03:09.110
like most important part they think about. Right.
01:03:09.230 --> 01:03:12.409
But then maybe it slowly goes to. performer composer
01:03:12.409 --> 01:03:14.969
right and then performer composer then the audience
01:03:14.969 --> 01:03:17.110
which like i guess especially at the college
01:03:17.110 --> 01:03:20.130
level like um you would you would definitely
01:03:20.130 --> 01:03:23.349
work towards that and like um that's like musicianship
01:03:23.349 --> 01:03:25.150
and all that stuff and then that naturally goes
01:03:25.150 --> 01:03:28.230
out to like that that works itself out with like
01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:33.030
audience like the emphasis no definitely yeah
01:03:33.030 --> 01:03:35.170
i think uh what you said too about how there's
01:03:35.170 --> 01:03:37.789
kind of like a lineage of what you might be interested
01:03:37.789 --> 01:03:40.269
in i think performance is the the first thing
01:03:41.030 --> 01:03:43.750
because it kind of teaches you about music. I
01:03:43.750 --> 01:03:46.289
mean, if you compose something, you can write
01:03:46.289 --> 01:03:49.090
something that's easy for you, but if somebody
01:03:49.090 --> 01:03:51.210
else writes it, you have to kind of overcome
01:03:51.210 --> 01:03:54.070
certain challenges with your own musicianship
01:03:54.070 --> 01:03:58.179
to play it a certain way. But so yeah, I think
01:03:58.179 --> 01:04:00.400
a lot of performers do kind of dabble in composition,
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:02.719
and we're all audience members at some point,
01:04:02.780 --> 01:04:06.059
and might be kind of pseudo -musicologists, depending
01:04:06.059 --> 01:04:09.360
on what the subject is. So yeah, I mean, it's
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:13.059
enclosed. quite a lot of the time but there is
01:04:13.059 --> 01:04:16.119
sort of like some some blend between all these
01:04:16.119 --> 01:04:18.679
things too yeah and hopefully more people like
01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:21.400
even like even that that we read it now like
01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:23.820
we kind of like hopefully take that into consideration
01:04:23.820 --> 01:04:26.320
when next time we perform or something hopefully
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:29.440
and especially not just in that like also chamber
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:33.039
music and uh con like orchestra but it's also
01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:36.599
like the the rhetoric and like persuasion part
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:40.300
that takes the most effort i mean to get it across
01:04:40.300 --> 01:04:44.210
all like the people to understand yeah no that's
01:04:44.210 --> 01:04:45.829
true yeah it's all true