Paul Wallace

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Welcome to Iron Island Discs, a podcast series where we talk to Irish people from different walks of life as they reflect on their own journeys.
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Join me, Ralph McDermott, as we explore the many aspects of Irish Disc and what it means to each of our guests through life's ups and downs.
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Paul Wallace, welcome to Iron Island Discs.
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Good to be amateur, Ralph.
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Now, have you been there to the Iron Islands?
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And which one or somewhere better or greater than there?
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Oh, I was onto the big one quite a few years ago.
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A beautiful day, which, as you know, on the west coast is fairly fantastic.
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Yeah, I've done a few of the islands Irishboffin as well, which uh was fantastic as well.
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But managed to have the weather and planned it well.
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My wife and her family are from Mao, so not too far uh to travel from there.
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Isn't the water amazingly clear and light blue out there?
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That's what fascinated me.
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It was like being in Bermuda.
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Yeah, turquoise.
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Turquoise, it really is it's it is fantastic.
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Mind you, a little bit chillier.
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I didn't I didn't swim in the Iron Islands, but I did in Innish Bomb's beautiful beach, just uh about a hundred meters or two hundred meters up from the from the harbour, and it looked idyllic.
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It was about 26 degrees when I got in, it was cold.
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Uh and you know, I'd been uh swimming uh other parts on the Atlantic coast of the Irish Sea, but for some reason the current there, the the Gulf Stream doesn't seem to get there.
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Uh maybe that's why it's so beautiful.
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But uh yeah, I haven't had a dip in the Iron Islands yet, but one to do, and uh another Cape Clear being a corkman, you know, was it I love the harbour there as well.
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The bias.
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And you swim longer, Paul, yeah.
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Yeah, I I do uh you know, during the winter months I might do a couple in around December for Christmas and any charity things, but then I I I tend to leave it going out till maybe April, May, and then I'll be back in till till about September, you know.
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Uh I I'm living in Monkstown in Dublin, so Seapoint is quite side, isn't it?
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December 28th, I believe, is very warm.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, it's been a I think it's been a fairly mild uh winter.
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So when I got in uh last time was around Christmas, I think yeah, I was in on New Year's Day as well, down the Atlantic, uh in Enniscron.
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That was fairly cold, and we we stayed in for a for a good while.
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I mainly uh in the winter it's a 30 30 to 60 second plunge, but uh we stayed in for about 10 minutes.
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So that was mind you, mind you, I get to after the first few minutes, you I think it's numbed all feeling in your body.
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You can feel nothing anyway.
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Yeah, but but generally I'm I'm more of a in the Irish waters, more of a a summer swimmer.
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Wise man.
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Now, if I met you in an elevator in some hotel in downtown, God knows where, and asked you what do you do or how do you describe yourself, what would that sound like, Paul?
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What do I do?
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That's very good.
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At at the moment, I would say uh how do you see yourself?
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Are you a former rugby player, a pundit, a businessman, entrepreneur?
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What are you in your head?
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I suppose I'm constantly in transition, adapting.
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I would have been rugby player, then former rugby player, a stroke pundit, now moved on to, I suppose, businessman, family man, two eight-year-old twins.
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So a lot of family time being spent for at my age, being late having them, the children, and yeah, work-wise as well.
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Yeah, just focused there on my own business as well, uh co-owned.
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So yeah, driving that.
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So it's yeah, not so much fun these days, all uh family and business.
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Well, lots of fun in in in both of those as well.
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Family puts manners on you, trust me.
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Yeah, it certainly does.
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Certainly does.
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And was rugby always going to be your thing, Paul, you think?
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Yeah, from an early age, sailing was probably the number one sport, tennis as well.
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Growing up in Monkstown and Cork, a lot revolved around sailing.
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My my dad was the Olympic manager for three Olympics and sailed internationally himself in laser dinghy.
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And you know, we sailed it with a 30-foot boat, which uh we spent our summers down in West Cork on.
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So it was very much sailing, and then transitioned into rugby, I guess, where I was playing with Cork On.
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When I moved, my father moved work-wise to Limerick, uh, went to Crescent to rugby school, and it really sort of took off from there when I was sort of under 16, and I got into the senior team sort of a few years early, and then it's I suppose got on to the becoming a rugby player and not as much sailing, unfortunately.
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But I've been able to rectify that in recent years.
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And rugby's in your family, your brothers, like your older brother, played, and your younger brother.
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So three of you played at a high level, and the fourth who made it club level.
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But it's obviously a drive in your house for rugby and sport and competition.
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Yeah, two older brothers.
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So Henry and Richard played for Irish colleges, would have been first, and then I played for Irish schools in what, 89?
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So I was about a year young for that, so I played a couple of years.
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So from that age, I think all of us were were fully head down on the rugby side of things.
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Uh, David was uh uh four years younger than me again, so he was a little bit behind that that curve till you know he probably came into his own when I was over in London playing uh with my brother Richard.
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But uh yeah, having Richard ahead of me again, another four years ahead in um you know those sort of uh national senior team setups and the training, etc., it was a great influence on me to with regards to the sort of training and the the work rate that was involved in a real transitional time when remember turning up for my first Munster senior training session and uh up at the front doing laps and the uh the looks I was getting from some of the other folks who is this young little student chap here now.
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I I could tell there was uh that you're not meant to be doing that for me.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I I suppose there was there was a start of that whole transition within within Irish rugby at that stage.
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And my brother Richard was probably most was certainly the most professional in the monster squad at that stage when it came to weight training, athletics, etc.
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So and I think that that sort of transitioned, and now you look at the how professional every player is, but it it it was that they were the first tentative steps, I think, where it was nearly frowned upon to be too keen in the training stakes.
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Willie Duggan would have wouldn't have liked that too much in the yeah, yeah.
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I I'd eat her on the way up and we woke up.
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That's yeah.
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And then so the with the whole change of the game, this thing called professionalism was coming as well.
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So you had an opportunity to go over to the UK, didn't you?
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Yeah, and do you know what?
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With the All Ireland League at that stage, the fact that I'd come through the the RFU systems from from the age of 17, we trained as professionals.
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I was working in First National Building Society and Treasury.
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They gave me a lot of freedom as sponsors of BlackRock back then, but the training we would do was we were almost professional, except doing a day job as well.
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So that transition was well underway.
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But in 1996, when the game was fully professional and I got offered a few contracts in the UK, it was at a completely different level in England, the premiership there compared to Irish rugby.
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And to go over to a club like Saracens, where he had the great Philippe Sela, Michael Lina, Richard Hill, you know, Peanut, the list goes on, lucky to play like the Castanier Horn, etc.
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It was just here on Bracken, the just it was the number of Galacticos of the club, but also had a a real old school vibe about it, as was the the poor man of of English first division rugby, and was always been uh relegated, promoted, relegated some fantastic characters there that and we're still really, really close the whole club, even from the generation before, generation after.
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You know, there's a lot of been a lot of badly informed, bad press about the club over, especially in Ireland, I I've felt over the last while.
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But I tell you what, it it is a fantastic club.
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And anyone who's ever gone there and played there has a real genuine affection for the club, even if they played a number of number of clubs.
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Saracen's always very close, and the way they've looked after players, etc., has been a credit to them.
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And where did you play in the games in those days?
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Well, my first thing is when we moved from Southgate, which was our training ground, which was a council pitch, basically, and we moved to Enfield Football Club with a huge capacity of 3,000.
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So I remember playing against our first home game against Leicester Tigers, who had won the won the league.
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We we beat them that day.
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And you know, they were full of the infamous ABC Club in the front row, Dean Richards, Martin Johnson, Neil Back, you know, Joel Stransky at 10, you know, there was all these superstars, and to be playing instead of in this little stadium.
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But the following year, then we moved to Vickerage Road uh and shared the ground with Watford.
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And the following season we were very successful when the cup should have won the league.
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We lost out on, I think it was one one league point.
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There was no playoffs back then, and you know, which which was quite difficult because a lot of players were in international duties and that.
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So it wasn't a true reflection we thought of the league.
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And when Newcastle won, I think we picked Leicerton for for third.
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It was quite competitive then.
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But at that stage, we were beginning to start getting 20,000.
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So the fact that the club was able to grow so hugely, and uh a lot of the credit down was down to Peter Deacon, who was the guy who created Super League.
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Uh, he was a real fantastic sports marketeer.
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And I think most of English clubs and then uh Northern European rugby marketing strategies have all come from what Peter Deacon was doing.
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You know, he recreated the Bradford Bulls, Sale Sharks, he certainly did it for Saracens.
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Now he needed success on the pitch as well.
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Uh, you know, he unfortunately Peter died quite a few years ago.
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A wonderful man, and uh it just showed you where rugby could get to when from the amateur marketing to that professional slick marketing that he was doing.
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Yeah, we tend to forget that now with the passage of time of how not backward, but where the game was then and what people did to make it so professional and appealing.
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You know, even moving to a soccer stadium like Vickers Road, which I used to go and watch Watford Watford play, you know, tight and base, you know.
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Yeah, we we were getting bigger crowds than Watford than occasion.
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Yeah, Graham Taylor's a good friend of mine.
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I wouldn't want to say he's gone now, I wouldn't want him to hear that.
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Well, I I tell you, I I we used to go to the Hornets uh to watch some of the games.
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One of the best lines I ever heard was when uh Gorn Ericsson was there and uh they the crowd started singing they'd rather have a turnip than a suede as his as him Taylor's nickname was turnip pet.
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That's right.
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I just thought it was one of the wittiest lines I've heard at a football match.
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Yeah.
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He came to my wedding in Melangar.
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Turnip was served at the wedding, and he shouted at me, Why do you serve turnip?
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He's a lovely man, but I always remember Vickers Road as a nice place, and you wear the funny hats, Indian territories.
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Yeah, the Fez hat.
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It started with the kicking teeth coming on, all the music, you know, the men in black when you come out.
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All these sort of things were completely novel to to the Which take it for granted now, yeah.
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Yeah, I all take them for granted.
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But there was so much, and yeah, all from Peter Deakin, uh I would have said brought all that into rugby union and and really drove it on.
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You know, the at one stage we had more people in the commercial department than we had players because you had to create all your own money.
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There was no uh as in the Irish system where you you've got the unions financing the players and etc.
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You're literally on your own there to create that.
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And what Nigel Ray and the the his the other owners like Nick Leslow and that did, you know, they would they were losing money.
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And as Nigel always said, all he ever wanted to do is make the club sustainable.
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You know, never in a very quick buck.
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There was a lot of very successful business people who went in thinking there would be quick buck to be made in professional rugby.
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All those guys pulled out after a year or two, realizing that that was not the case.
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You know, to this day, I guess financially the English club system still still finds it quite difficult to to survive.
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As we seem with all with the amount of liquidations of uh of rugby clubs and salary costs growing up, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So uh not not enough uh credit's been given to to those benefactors that were there for the good of the game and the good of the clubs and and not looking for uh to see if they could make a profit on uh turning a club around like we see in soccer so much these days.
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Yeah.
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And for you, was becoming professional a mindset, uh way of life, was a harder to do to be professional.
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You know, you got paid, but you had to have a mindset to be working 24-7 at being professional, which wasn't natural, uh even though you were training professional.
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Yeah, it's pressure, isn't it?
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Well, funnily enough, I I I had sort of offers to go to Bristol Newcastle and I decided to go to Saracens to continue a banking career and to work in London.
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But I soon found out it was part of my contract that I'd be able to work.
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And that first season I was still playing European rugby with Leinster, back for Ireland games, and playing toward Saracens as well, all at the same time.
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So it was three different teams on the go.
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So that so that that banking career sort of had to be parked.
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But no, I loved it, the fact that you could just focus on rugby, you know, 24-7.
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And like the the big thing is Philippe Sella, who's probably my my hero in rugby, he was 36, he was just a class act back then, on and off the pitch.
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And uh Philippe, you know, he the most important thing he should he never never lifted a weight, he was a farmer for such a classy, elegant player.
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He was just so strong, and but he never ever did weights, which was quite interesting.
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But his was all about rest.
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He had to have an hour's rest in the middle of the day in between sessions, and it was it taught you whereas Addie Johns, who I recently had a conversation doing a rowing event with him, we were there at the same time, my brother Richard Paddy and myself, and uh he got into he caught a virus, uh his overtraining caused a lot of us to break down because we were doing these Irish programs still playing the doing your your Saracen's training, and the thought was you're a professional now, you should be training every moment of the day.
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But rest uh, you know, the the sell away of rest and just focused training was what it was all about.
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I suppose that the hardest thing back then was the number of games we played, so we were never really able to have a good off-season because you you play 50 odd games a year.
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You know, I remember playing France twice, I think we played a full game and 70 minutes, flying back and playing a half the next day against Watts in a league game, you know, we're at a very high level.
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You know, you asked the guys to do that now, you know, he didn't play three or four days later.
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You'd regularly play a Saturday, you might fit in a Wednesday game and the following Saturday.
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Uh it was it was fairly relentless.
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And uh even, you know, we used to play on a Sunday and you'd arrive on a Monday, and most players would have played on a Saturday, and in Irish training sessions it was a full-on heavy session.
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So it was yeah, there was sometimes the the there wasn't enough joint up thinking, it was said, which you see nowadays is a fantastic balance that they have, and you see that with the success of the Ireland and the players in the way they're given that time to to be physically at the top of their game and mentally as well, because um, as you see with the you know, after Alliance tour and so many Irish players involved, it's so difficult mentally to stay at the top of your game to burn out.
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And people say is that an intent?
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It isn't.
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You just you just can't.
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People can try and do it.
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You can see in every sport, no matter what a competitor you are, and sometimes I think the likes of Andy Farrell knows how to do it with a little leave you out of this team or squad, uh, and that that generally gets a bit of a reaction.
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So um, you know, I I I think it's it's fantastic the way they're managing it now, both uh physically and mentally.
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And we understand recovery a lot better and scientifically.
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You need that time mentally and physically, as you say.
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Yeah, and you know, the the other thing is you get a couple of weeks off, you can do some really heavy training within the season.
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You know, uh uh we had about a three-week window before you're back in playing games.
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And then after that, you couldn't really do that much hard work.
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So we had about a three-week, three to four-week, you know, preseason, and then that was it.
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Where nowadays you've got all these little blocks that you can go away and and they're all like mini pre-seasons, so you can be at you know, physically at a at another level where you had to keep yourself fresh for games and couldn't be burning yourself out.
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You know, you're recovering, then you'd one day you could have a semi-hard day, and then you're preparing for the next game so you couldn't be going too hard.
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So yeah, and and everyone wanted their their piece of you, whether it'd be the national team, the club team, or at that stage as well, Leinster uh would have been there as well with Europe.
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And playing for Ireland was still consistent.
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You didn't do you suffer from live playing in the UK in a premiership in terms of availability for Ireland, or was that a myth that people said at the time, be out of mind, out of sight, out of mind?
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It was unofficial, but they certainly made a call after the 99 World Cup of things, after we we'd a big loss to England that uh if you were overseas, you weren't being going to be picked.
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Uh which was quite unfair with players who are already under contract um to do that retros you know, retrospectively.
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They they should have left you play out your once you made a commitment to come back.
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I could see why they would have done that.
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You know, I when I negotiated to come back to Leinster, uh I remember Asuka said, Look, I know if it's 6040, you'll uh pick the Irish-based guy, and I was told 90-10 Wally, you know.
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So that's but that wasn't but that wasn't on the record.
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But that's that's that's something.
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No, I know there's always a sense though.
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Sometimes you meditate against you, but weren't you imagining as punters, you know?
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There was there was a little bit of uh politics as well, as there always was, you know.
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When I first started out, you go to Conn, Core Codden for your task, and then it was maybe Shannon or Gary O, Mike, Carry it all.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.640
The Munster teams seemed to have a good good control on it.
00:17:30.799 --> 00:18:03.359
And I think even with Munster Lens to they were pushing for their own players, which do you know what is it probably stood for Irish rugby uh quite well, but I thought it was fairly unfairly enforced that all the you know international players that are trying to better themselves by playing at a higher level league as it was back then in in the UK or in England were were suddenly just you know jettisoned out, which was look in in the long run it's it suited Irish rugby, but I think even in that medium-short term it would have been better to integrate, keep the players involved, and just say, right, you've got to come back.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:11.359
It would have had a much stronger depth of players and maybe would have had a bit more success, even though in that sort of O'Driscal era there was great success.
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.319
But unfortunately, I was just retiring, I broke my leg just as as Brian was breaking onto the scene.
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:37.200
I and not just him, but the you know, that length to back lines and the monster forwards coming through to us but I think if we had stronger depth and it I I I know most of the English-based players came back, but and there was a year or two where they were left out in the cold, which I I thought would have been was not to the betterment of of Irish rugby.
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:37.759
Yeah.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.319
And is Irish this important to you?
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.440
Being Irish and living in England or travelling, is that something you carry as a badge?
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.640
Is it important or not?
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:46.960
Yeah.
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:48.319
Hugely, usually.
00:18:48.559 --> 00:19:08.079
When I suppose as an Irish player and as an ambassador for Ireland from, you know, way back, you won a school's triple crowned, you know, at that early age, what that meant to me, especially in Oxford and Iffley Road against a very strong English team with Kieran Bracken, Mark Regan, I think Sean DeLalio on the bench, you know, was uh a pretty, pretty strong side.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:20.400
And from that, just touring, whether it was you know, Student World Cup in Italy or toured Africa with an Irish development team, you always just felt you were an ambassador for the Irish team, and especially when you got to the senior level.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:20.880
Yeah.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.400
And it was always uh like we we might have had the most success, but we were definitely the most fun national team.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.319
And wherever we went, we were we were very light.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:38.000
So I think we were we we were we we generally got a lot of the locals on our side as opposed to some other teams that might be touring, and especially down in South Africa or Australia, New Zealand.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:46.799
But you know, even post-rugby, I've been lucky to do a lot of after dinner speaking in Asia and America, you know, further feel Australia, New Zealand.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.960
And you always feel, you know, it's great.
00:19:49.039 --> 00:20:02.240
People just always want to, you know, we've got string such a strong diaspora, but also I think other people neutrals there always seem to enjoy, and you can get a a bit of a free ride being Irish around the world, to be honest.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.279
There's that you know, people are on your side before you before they even meet you, which is which is great.
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:08.960
And there's a reason behind that.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:22.799
I think it's a lot of the great things and you know, the Irish people being very uh the empathy that I think the the humour and general understanding of other people's cultures, I think are very indicative of the Irish people.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.599
And you know, I think that's that's really stood for us for a long time.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.039
Yeah, I lived in London early in mid-80s.
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:38.319
It was slightly different than there was a bit of anti, but I love the place, but you're always more self-conscious than you would have been living in Boston, for example, where I was for ten years.
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:45.119
And Irishness carries itself differently in different places, and you just have to be kind of uh self-conscious about it sometimes.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.519
And you know, in London it was still it was called paddy, like a lot of people just call you paddy.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.640
Uh and it was I don't think it was even meant to be derogatory.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.400
No, I don't I don't think it really is.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.480
You can't I I never take offense to that.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:57.039
Yeah.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:04.400
Well, there was there was a lot of uh teammates uh for the catchment area from Essex, yeah, and they would always go, Go on, Mike, say 30.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.400
Not realizing they could pronounce it themselves.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:08.720
Yeah.
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.200
So I got it, yeah, you you you'd have a good laugh at that.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:12.000
And you know what?
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.079
I everyone had a good, you know, good slag off each other, good sense of humour.
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.279
You you you never took it s too seriously.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:30.640
You'd always know, you know, some of my best friends now are English players that I would have played with, you know, over the years as Harrisons as well, and you know, just brilliantly genuine people who would always have your back.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:41.839
Well, we claim Karen Bracken anyway, so even though he is And setbacks, Paul, I know you've had your series of injuries over the years and actually ended your career in a way.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.960
How do you deal with them and where'd you get the resilience to battle through them?
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.519
I was pretty lucky with injuries, considering the amount of mileage I was going through.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:59.839
Tended to to get away until I had when I was twenty nine, had a really bad break of my ankle on a frozen pitch in in Ravenhill up in Belfast.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.079
Fast for Sarsons against Ulster.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:03.920
And yeah, that put me back.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.839
I was out for about a year and be put me back, came back to Leinster because there's, you know, to be better looked after, fewer games, etc.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:16.559
And also at that stage, I mean pointed out to me, if you want to play for Ireland again, you want to be back in Ireland.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:23.599
So even though I was probably only half the player when I came back, I was straight into the squad again, which just showed the yeah.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.359
If you're available, you're in.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.240
Yeah, where I was playing my best rugby before I broke my ankle and I couldn't get in the squad.
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:36.799
Uh like best by a long mile, better than my lines form, better than anything, and I was just being ignored because I was with Saracens.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.839
But uh with a broken leg, I was never quite the same player again.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.319
And then eventually that that sort of broke out.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:56.720
But you know, it it thought me a lot as a player, you know, over in Saracen's those years, a lot of players who had a lot of injury problems who were out for six, you know, eight months, they're just in there in the gym training on their own.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:04.079
And it's it's a bit like I guess if you're in the military and you don't want to think about the people that are hurt.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.960
You just got to think the positive stuff that you never get hurt.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.559
And you have this mindset.
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:19.680
But coming back from that injury and the amount of of time, you know, it's myself and uh Brezi, actually, who is on a Linster contract as well, obviously went on to music and everything else.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:24.799
But the two of us stuck in the gym for about six months, you know, just doing our own rehab and that.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:31.759
And what I had to do just to get on the training pitch every day and recovery afterwards, just so I could get on the training pitch.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.440
It's the hardest I've ever worked.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.960
And when I got back playing, we we won the the Celtic League final.
00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:47.759
I got back for about the quarterfinal stage and went on and won that, and got back and had a few games for Ireland off the bench, uh, even though I thought I wasn't quite right.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:24:01.039
But to work to get to that level again, it was probably the proudest achievement, you know, personally, that I've had, not not winning anything, but just the work and effort that went in to get me to that stage.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:06.400
And even though I couldn't play anywhere near my best, yeah, that that was huge for me.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.119
Like I was doing a cycling event there recently.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.319
I were in the middle of the night with Rob Wainwright and Martin Johnson.
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:13.920
You're up in the Welsh Mountains.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:21.759
And all of a sudden, uh one of the guys said, just as we did it was about minus two, minus three, and this is in the daddy cycle.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.039
And one of the guys behind me through and says, Your brakes dropping.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:26.400
I said, Oh, it's not scrambled.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.599
Anyhow, bang, bang, just started dropping, dropping, dropping.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:35.119
And I was going to get off, and then I realized, geez, there's no one behind me out of the middle of the Welsh Mountains on my own.
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:41.519
And I said, Well, I'll do a car, something will come along, or I'll go back down the hill to where we came from.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:47.279
And then I I just said, Look, if whatever you do, get to the top of the mountain, and then you can give up.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.319
And it was sort of uh an analogy.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:55.920
So there I headed off with the brake rubbing up the mountain and got up there to the top.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.359
And next thing you see, the van has pulled in waiting.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:05.039
So went there, they fixed the brake and caught up and got back in it and was able to finish the whole thing.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.759
But I I guess it was a bit like that with the injury.
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:13.680
You know, I just went, just things are down, get to the best you can be, and then you can be happy when you finish.
00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:18.240
Now, as it as it happened, it was the the the surgeon told me, that's it, you can't.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.279
I I literally couldn't put any weight on it anymore.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:22.960
So um that was that.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.319
I was very proud of the way that you know I pushed myself.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:34.799
I still, I suppose, would have expected uh five, six years if I hadn't broken my my ankle uh more in my career, so it was probably mid-career.
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:40.079
Yeah, and and there was a Lions tour coming up in 2001 in Australia, which I really wanted to get on.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:46.480
I'd had such a wonderful time from a rugby and a social sense with the the guys in '97.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.599
So that that that was just quite heartbreaking at that time.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:55.440
But to fight back and get there and you know, wear the Irish jersey again was just where'd you go meant be to keep yourself?
00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:03.440
You you make it sound mechanical in the way you just go and train every day six months, but there's some m some days you just don't feel you have it.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.839
So where do you dig to get that energy or drive to do it?
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:11.119
Is it just automatic or there's pride?
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:22.240
There's there was a do you know, uh, because of what had happened, uh, where I felt I was should far and away the best player in my position at the time in Ireland.
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:22.720
Yeah.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.319
And and I was playing my best rugby and I wasn't getting a shot.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.759
There was a real anger, and I guess I was harnessing that anger to get myself back.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:37.359
It was proving a point, and I guess being quite a stubborn person, probably what to get.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.839
And you need to have that stubbornness, I think.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.720
And it's you can have your anger, it's how you harness it.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.240
Yeah, and then to get it to be and just saying, right, well, I'm gonna do everything I can.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:54.880
And I'd realize then, you know, in this whole recovery phase, how easy I'd had it when I wasn't being injured.
00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:06.000
But when you're injured, trying to get back, it's you know, and and my empathy now for players with long injuries, it's it's just gone went through the roof from that day when you go through that process.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.680
It was, you know, the guys used you used to laugh at me.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:15.839
I I remember when my first training session back, I managed to run a short line just and I was running through him.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.440
A great friend of mine who played all the way up from schools at Liam Toland.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.720
And next thing he jumps out of the way and he goes, Liam, what can you tackle him?
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.039
And Tolie just says, I can't tackle a cripple.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.359
I was hoping I laughed so hard.
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.480
I went down, I didn't have the flexion, drop the ball over the line.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.480
I was laughing so hard, you know.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.480
But yeah, that that was it.
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.519
But what can you do?
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:41.200
You can do the best you can, you can redefine what the best you can do is.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:47.359
Try and raise yourself to that level, and if you can't, then you can you know finish with your your head up high.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:56.319
Yeah, we touched upon you know, channel that frustration, negative energy potentially in the right way to do something for you in the good side rather than the bad side, isn't it?
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.640
Yeah, and you you'll always have a little bit of a come down period when you get bad news and you know it work, anything family.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:12.720
There's always little things that happen, but you know, I I suppose my mindset is I might go into myself for a day or two and be a little bit depressed or whatever, very angry about it.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:19.279
And and then I just get this sort of anger and then just try and really push that on and say, right, okay, stop feeling sorry for yourself.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:26.880
Try and remember some of Jim Telfer from the Lions tour, his some of his lines, his like stop feeling sorry for yourself.
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:41.200
You know, there's two types of people in the world, those that feel sorry for themselves, and then who just get up and sort it out and make sure you can you can feel a bit sorry for yourself, but you just gotta get right back out and come back twice as hard then and to make sure you're gonna you get there.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.920
Just what what you think your best is, you gotta go and better that again and make sure you're gonna be able to do that.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:55.119
And describe to me being in that room when when Jim gives those those famous speeches that we know now watching '97 or whatever, of digging that deep.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.440
Is it that intense and scary, motivating, listening to him speak?
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:00.079
Yeah.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:00.960
You know what?
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.319
Well, the nerves and that, and most of those were before test matches.
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:17.599
And can I add, Ian McEakin was just as inspirational, but there's something about Jim Telford's voice, his character, that just absolutely inspires.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.640
You know, even in training sessions, he he would do things that kickoffs were too slow.
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.079
And we said, We're we're sprinting flat.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:35.440
But he would make ways where you start back an extra five meters and you're you know, and you'd get there, and he'd always manage to get you think you think you're 100%, you're only doing it about 90, he'll get to at least to 95.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:41.680
And it was always that way, and it was a mental hardness, just don't feel sorry for yourself attitude.
00:29:41.839 --> 00:30:05.279
In Scotland, I guess when you had Jim every session, some of the forwards uh weren't the biggest fans of coming in kind of turning against this, but in a one-off occasion, whether it be Johnson, you know, Delali, especially the forwards, I think, you know, Woody, Myself, Hilly, Jeremy Davis, we were all absolutely enthralled for him to just push and push and push.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.240
But I think because as a team, we were it was like he was one of the players with us on the pitch.
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.519
And of course, he had great leadership of Martin Johnson as well.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:17.759
It was a man of fewer words, but when he said spoke, everyone listened.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:24.400
Even a look from John O could tell you would be more than uh, you know, some players like to talk a lot, some captains' leaders.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:31.119
Uh John's a man of few words, but I would say much more influential than the others.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:31.680
Yeah.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:40.799
And that sliding doors moment when you didn't think you were going to make it to South Africa and you passed your opponent in the Heathrow and end up playing three tests.
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.039
Do you find that remarkable looking back?
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.559
Yeah, look, I I was again, you talk about disappointment.
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:51.680
I felt I was playing very well in Saracens at the time.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:31:02.799
Uh in Ireland, we played against Scotland in the last game of the Six Nations, lost that match, and I we would have been expected to dominate up front.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:09.119
I was up against Tommy Smet, the late Tommy Smit, who became a great friend of mine and played in the Lions team with me.
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:13.599
Uh, like as I like to say it, uh I didn't lose my spot on the Lions tour.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:16.640
I got I got Tommy his spot on the Lions tour.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.519
But he he he was like he's like a little temp peg.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.640
The more you pushed him, the more you'd like pushing him into the ground.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.480
So he wasn't the most aggressive guy to go at you, but to get dominance was very difficult.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.119
And then he was such a great player around the park.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:47.440
And yeah, that that disappointment and uh not getting selected, I suppose, was again a benefit to me because I came, not thinking I'd have a chance because you had Di Young, who had who had played in the Australian Test Series uh eight years before, Jason Leonard had played four years before uh tied.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.240
So I was thinking I'd be lucky to get a few games, and it was just about give everything and just show that you should have been on the tour.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:02.799
But to uh break into the test team, I I always felt I was good enough, but I didn't think I'd ever get the opportunity to actually make a good run at it.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:11.759
And of course, passing Claw who didn't call CPU show was yeah, we look, we we had a we had a ding-dong every time we played at each other.
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:17.119
You know, I was the young pretender coming through at Munster, and then it was Munster Leinster or Saracens and that.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.680
So we had a good ding down, was very competitive.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:25.119
Like uh Claw was never quite like the young fellow coming to let him arm around and try and bring you through.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.079
He's gone, I'm fighting you two to the hill for the spot.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:32.000
And uh God, we we had some sparks uh around the pitch over the years.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:38.559
Yeah, but you got in there and you meant that lovely man Ost Durant in your Yeah, big Oz, yeah.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.759
And yeah, funnily enough, I got carried away with myself.
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.839
I was going quite well in the midweek team.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:51.519
We were out scrummaging all the competition, and I was going now I've got the big English, you know, back five along with Jeremy Davidson.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:55.279
You know, it was Rod Burr, Delalio Hill, Johnson, Jeremy.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:09.440
There's a big lot of weight in there, a lot of physical size, not countenancing that the springbok back five are even bigger than went too high, tried to power scrummage, one penalty against us, which I take the scrum height was my fault.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.920
Uh next one, another penalty, they're 3-0 up.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:12.799
I'm under the post.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:14.480
You know, it mentioned Martin Johnson.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:15.759
He just gave me one look.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.599
It was the this round and the way look he can give you.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:28.640
And I went, right, cop on, you've been too arrogant trying to power scrummage against this giant Oz, you know, uh Oz means ox in Afrikaans.
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:37.279
And to be called that in the high value, to be nicknamed, is is just that, you know, they're they're huge men at the best of times.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:38.880
But yeah, and a wonderful guy.
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:45.519
But from then on, one side, you know, scrummaged, you know, scrummaging is about it's a former wrestling, and they're trying to take that out of the game.
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:54.640
And it's about technique and getting a guy into a bad position and then exerting your your your power and strength as opposed to just trying to do it the other way around.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:06.319
So that and unfortunately it's the skill and talent that's been taken out of the game, I think, in the Northern Hemisphere, mainly due to interpretation of laws from the Southern Hemisphere who never had that ability um over the years.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:24.400
By doing that and just sticking what you're good at and not getting carried away with yourself, then we, you know, we pretty much dominated the scrum from there on in, and you know, we got all the scrum angles that we needed, you know, including Matt Dawson's famous try in in the first test, which was probably the game breaker.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:30.960
You know, so it was yeah, and back then you you know you played 80 minutes and a big man you could wear him down.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.920
There's a lot more scrums than there are these days.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:43.199
So if you just kept working and working and working at the the big giant, you could eventually wear them down, as I was David to the Goliath, as it were.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.639
But yeah, it was great.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:46.000
Uh, you know, a wonderful guy.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:52.320
One thing I'd say about the Springboks used to always have a bit of a bad reputation because of the Africaners post apartheid and that.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.440
But the sportsmanship, they were always fantastic and changing a jersey or meeting after a game.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:13.119
And even though there was a huge rivalry, especially the following year when he toured at Ireland in '98, where there's uh the Battle of Pretoria and and that, which was quite famous, they were always great guys, and I must say, of yeah, and great sportsmen and uh just very, very physical.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:21.519
And funnily enough, where we thought we were the opposite to the South Africans, uh, work with a lot of South Africans now, and we're actually very, very similar, I believe.
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.800
And there was no of those 99 call moments.
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.280
It was all very friendly compared to the old days on the highway.
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.400
Uh oh, no, there was quite a few, quite a few.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:40.320
Um well, we we had Andre Venter, who was probably the best athlete, probably still one of the best athletes to play the game at number six.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:44.000
He plays sevens, he was about six foot four, five, you know.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:50.079
He was really fast but incredibly big and powerful, and all he wanted to do was fight all day.
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:54.880
So we said it's better he was doing that than running over Jerry Guscat and 13 channels.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.480
So uh we kept him busy in the uh in the tight exchanges.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:35:59.039
Yeah.
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:10.320
And that was would you say that was on your iconic iconic moments, your good moments you look back on of the touring party, the good moments of the the panel of the team, the high moments of your career?
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.119
It is until coming back from my injury.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:14.480
Like I always swore.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:21.840
I said, This I was in the back of the bus coming out of King's Park with Jerry Guscott, and I turned to Cherry who'd who'd always also won a series in Australia.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.360
I said, Jesus, this better than than Australia, and he goes, That they're all different, different occasions, you can't compare them.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:29.840
And I said, Right, I'm I was 25.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.599
I said, This is not going to be the the top of my career.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.119
I'm just far too early.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.840
And I remember saying to me, This is just the start.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.519
I'm gonna get it's gonna be better.
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:41.519
I'm gonna move on to the next level.
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.360
And you know, I one of my biggest regrets is we lost the third test.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:51.679
You know, we're gonna now a lot of guys had injuries and and cried off, but that was a certainly an opportunity.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:57.199
We certainly did a lot of partying as well up in Vanderbilt Park in the middle of nowhere uh for a few days.
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:03.440
But yeah, we probably played our best rugby as well in that third test, but just things didn't come off, and then they'd go to the length of the pitch and score.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.760
But we certainly played some great rugby, which we only did in fits and bursts in the first two tests.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:18.320
Okay, and around Christmas table of the three Wallace brothers who played for the Lions, who is the greatest inverter comms according to themselves when you meet.
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:28.639
Well, I'm the I d I'm the only one that won a series, so I can I can uh David with his grand slams and Griffith with his turn down, they can they can make that and yeah, yeah.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:30.639
Beats them all.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:38:08.480
No, look, they David in particular has had so much success with Ireland and he's had two lines tours and just been put on the lines board as well, which is he played in that series, which like one of the best games I've ever been to was in Loch Desverswald in Pretoria, that second test, which unfortunately we lost uh when Brian Adriscal and Adam Jones had that head injury, I think we'd have we could have won the series, you know, and and series can they're so tight when you're playing the likes of New Zealand and South Africa in particular away that even no matter how well you play, you need a bit of good fortune as well.
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:17.840
And you know, we we probably got a bit with honeyball missing a few kicks, but we we also, you know, it was swings and roundabouts, uh, and you create your own luck as well.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.960
And uh at the end of the day, it's it's you know, that's the result.
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:23.519
You win or you lose, and you just gotta accept it and move on.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:33.920
And in real life, how sport is predictable in vertical and life, how do you adapt to life after sport, trying to make your own way in business or whatever?
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:35.039
Good, barren, different.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.320
Do you find that a very different world to walk in than sport?
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.639
Yeah, there's a big change, and I'm probably luckier than some of the others in that.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:51.280
I had, you know, finished university, I'd started working before I went professional, so coming back was probably not as tough walking into an office job.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:03.280
The confidence is a big thing because you've been out of the loop for, you know, at one stage I I found it I I'd start writing something, and my spelling and everything had gone because when you're playing rugby all day, you're not you're not writing.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:03.519
Yeah.
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:05.199
You're not typing.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:12.079
You know, this is we were in London without mobile phones, internet was only just broke in in the latter years.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.280
So it was funny, you weren't writing letters home or anything.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:16.559
It was just all on the phone.
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.719
And I found things like that and my skill set and then confidence to go with it.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:26.800
And I think there's a there's an issue as well, and I've seen it when I've chatted with a lot of players who've retired.
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:28.400
You really want to prove yourself.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:35.679
You know, there's a lot of smart guys, but then try and overprove themselves, where to be honest, you're starting off again and you're there to learn.
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:45.599
But people want to try and prove themselves by jumping in and maybe jump in too far rather than getting in and having someone that they can learn from and go to next levels.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.880
You know, take it as a phase thing, a transition couple of years.
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:50.960
Now it's the competitive spirit as well.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:57.119
And you know, when you've been, you know, people come in, look if you're autographed for 10 years, and all of a sudden you're you're being dictated.
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:02.239
Uh as I would say to some of the guys, yeah, you've got a boss there, you've got a couple of bosses, right?
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.519
But that's you know, you're in a rugby club, you've got different coaches, you know, you've got the CEO, they're they're your bosses as well.
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:11.119
It's just the way you're treated, whatever the culture uh of the organization.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:22.079
So yes, it was very difficult initially coming back, and then obviously the whole Celtic tiger imploding as well was was not great.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.559
But then you know, you learn from it, you move on.
00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:43.360
And I would say by going through those tough times post-rugby has helped me immensely in my career now, and yeah, and my ability to bounce back from Knox is greatly, greatly uh increased, Jeff.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.039
Yeah, well, time teaches you that.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:45.920
When did you come back?
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:54.559
In 2001, 2022, something in 2003 I retired and I went to work for Jones Lang LaSalle in commercial property.
00:40:54.719 --> 00:41:04.000
So we were investing for probably syndicates and uh private banks and um individuals into mainly around Europe.
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:15.039
And thankfully a a lot of what we did was in Germany, and those clients all managed to come through the tiger one way, uh, you know, pretty much uh you know, not too badly affected.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.320
And yeah, it was a whole divestment strategy for companies that were.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:23.519
And how do you keep your mojo going into this new phase of new way of doing things?
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:27.280
You weren't on a playing field where you physically thought you could control it.
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.639
Mentally, do you find that tough to keep motivating yourself?
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:31.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:45.920
No, you you certainly did, and you you probably didn't have the confidence, exude confidence, probably more so, where you're trying to push someone to do something because you know what's right, uh, and you say this guy's been in the business for 30 years, you're two, three years in.
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:49.440
But you might have done the research on something and say, Yeah, you should go to this.
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.239
But yeah, and and that's like Was it intimidated, though?
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:53.599
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:54.320
It was, yeah.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:54.719
Yeah.
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.920
Because most sports people have a difficulty in stepping into what we we know is real life.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.800
I've done with soccer players, I've seen other sports people.
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:19.519
It's very different to us, is granted, these things happen, but for you sports people, I think it's more challenging in reading people, understanding situations, as you say, not being used to do basic office things, you do feel intimidated, or the other people know more than you do.
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:26.079
Yeah, when you've been out of it for for so long and then back into it, yeah, and getting that experience and moving on.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:36.719
And then obviously we you hit the the Celtic Tiger years and and I moved on into the debt side, which is probably with an economics background, is where I had wanted to be.
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.960
But then it was just there was just no comeback.
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.519
The Irish market was just so dead for such a long time.
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:55.679
Um yeah, and thankfully over the last few years created a VAT review data analytics business, and that's going fantastic in that we've uh it's one of those niche industries where you've got no competition and it's a no-find, no fee basis.
00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:13.360
So we we've been very successful uh over the last two years, and I guess I wasn't a natural salesperson, but when you know something is that good and there's no real competition to what we're doing, then uh yeah, it's very easy to become a good salesman when you you've got real belief in the world.
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:14.239
You believe in yourself.
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:18.000
Don't talk too much about it, because people might listen and do the same.
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:19.280
Yeah.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.239
Well, there's a there's there's 20 years of that analytics to to to get through, so we're so you're safe.
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:26.079
A bit of time.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:27.360
And there's music.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.280
I'll be retired in 20 years.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.119
I'll go away at that.
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:33.760
And you there's music floating about Paul.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.920
Yeah, but a a bit of everything.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.599
I really yeah.
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:44.320
You didn't go to you didn't go to test matches with big headphones on, listen to music down the tunnel.
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.440
It was different then.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:56.159
Yeah, I I remember before the World Cup in ninety nine, Warren Gatlin decided we're gonna put have you uh put a song on a little uh MP3 player for each one of you, right?
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.960
And we're gonna do it right and we'll give him one.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.039
And mine Was something like uh oh what's the name of the band?
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:04.480
It's like take your head off.
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.760
Uh um it'll come back to the eddy.
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:15.280
I was just really up peace tempo, and all the forwards it would be like either heavy metal, it was just something like you know, grunge or something like that.
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:20.239
Uh and then it came to Davy Humphreys and overheard him.
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:21.360
He had Celine Dia.
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:32.880
The difference between forwards and backs, you know, it's just relaxing, calming music, and how it was uh dump dump dump manic, bit manic.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:35.760
I suppose ACDC I should have probably gone for as well.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:40.159
But uh yeah, no, I said uh the jam when I was growing up, big fan.
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.199
My older brother Henry was into them and into that.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:49.199
My brother Richard was a ska, so it was a bit of you know, madness, bad manner specials, uh, and that.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:56.239
So, you know, but anything from Van Morrison to Queen to yeah, yeah, I'm very varied.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:03.840
Um there's some modern uh music as well, but uh to be honest, I I probably 80s, 90s is still where I'm at.
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:09.760
Um every time they come back, like they were in the paper mode recently, and I'm just going, you know, they weren't even one of my top bands.
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:12.320
They they're better than anything that's out there at the moment.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:17.679
And uh I'm sure everything I'm sounding like my dad would have my kid's age.
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.960
Yeah, uh wait till your kids start slang your music.
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:22.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:36.239
But I like Nina Simone, I go back as far as there, and I and I would listen to a lot of modern music as well, um, especially with my eight-year-old daughter, really getting into whatever, whatever it might be.
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:50.880
So yeah, I I I yeah, I thought I'm fairly open mind, and I wouldn't classify myself as with any particular genre, but I certainly have uh it's probably time and mood that I would change to to to to what I'd listen to.
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:57.679
But if you're to say anyone that I'd love to see, it would be Paul Weller back with the jam, not coming here on his own.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.159
Yeah.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:45:59.920
Well, fingers crossed for that.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:08.079
And is any poems or words of wisdom apart from what you learned from Jim Telfer that you would run to as a quote that motivates him?
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.679
Or is Jim Telfer's climate ever's the place where it's at?
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:17.039
Yeah, well, yeah, that there's another Henry Ford one, a good courtman.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.960
A scatter brain is one who never has an unspoken thought.
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:22.800
I I'm a bit of a scatter brain.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:28.079
You know, sometimes I I don't take the time to think and just blurt it out.
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:36.719
I saw it once in an Irish Times article where it was as a slight on someone, just uh a quote about the person who said, Never an unspoken thought.
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.039
And just wonderful put down.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.239
But it it's probably one that I got to learn myself.
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:43.280
Probably never will.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:48.159
It's not in my persona, but uh yeah, yeah, it's um it is it is a good one.
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.119
There's there's a lot of things that I I wish I thought a bit more about before I actually spoke.
00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:02.320
And finally, when you look back on your career, life, and business, are you surprised at where it uh worked out how successful you were?
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.239
Or was it given in your mind that you'd be get to where you are now?
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:14.079
I remember being a a student in UCC and saying, Oh, I'm gonna play for Ireland in about three years' time, which I went ahead and did.
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.280
Uh I know I always had this focus to do that.
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:26.000
I suppose in business life I had that uh it was greatly interrupted with the sport, but would I ever exchange it?
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.039
Definitely not.
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:27.360
No.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.920
There's sort of regrets that I couldn't do both.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:40.159
You know, I think back of a lot of people who went into investment banking when you're an international rugby player, sort of helps you along in you know, in that level in your business and you can jump straight back into it.
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:47.039
But when you take that time out for eight, ten years and then try and go back and start building you, you never quite get there.
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:49.360
But you know, slowly but surely getting there.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:57.039
And you know, it's it I guess success is all about the real reward from it is what you've put into it to get yourself there.
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:09.360
And I think that's something, you know, you go back talking about Telfer, is if you put everything in, even if it's uh a loss but a great performance, well, that's success as well.
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:28.000
So you want to get the win, but the thing is getting the best out of yourself and getting yourself and always knowing that you can get more out of yourself and uh you can be better, and never really relaxing on what you think is is optimal performance and just pushing, pushing about.
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:41.119
You know, in sport it would have been I changed my diet, uh, which was a big thing, when on a zone diet, and which improved things greatly, changed the the way I was training, sleep habits, all these little things just to get that little bit more.
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:53.519
I guess it's the same with, you know, I suppose disciplines in working life as well and family life as well, and in what you're going to do, you know, getting to bed earlier so you're you're up earlier with your children before you get to work and and things like that.
00:48:53.760 --> 00:49:06.960
So there are a lot of a lot of things, but I suppose it's it's just ever you always have to be trying to improve yourself one way or another, and especially by doing things that you don't really want to do.
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:11.280
Paul Wallace, thank you very much for joining us today on our nine discs.
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:12.639
My pleasure, Rafa.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:14.079
It's been great chatting.