Margin Notes: Juggling Opportunities and Rewriting the Story After Mistakes

On the #amwriting podcast’s Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, about how writers handle mishaps and self-talk when juggling book-related obligations. Hill describes accidentally booking two plane tickets to a Washington, DC conference, prompting a discussion about shifting the story from “I’m disorganized” to one of abundance and opportunity.

Hill introduces Buddhism’s “wise speech” filters—helpful, kind, timely, and true—and distinguishes guilt (which motivates clean-up and repair) from shame (which labels the self as bad and can paralyze writers). They share examples of painful feedback and feelings of insignificance, discuss the “worldly winds” (fame/insignificance, pleasure/pain, blame/disrepute, gain/loss), and conclude that choosing to “pay the price” of a busy, opportunity-seizing life can be healthier than spiraling into blame or defensiveness.

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Read Wise Effort by Dr. Diana Hill

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is Margin Notes, the place in the podcast where we talk about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.

Jennie: And I’m here again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and we’re gonna talk about a really interesting reality that you and I have both noticed, Diana, which is that when you’re out there in the world with your book as a writer and you’re juggling all the things, you’re ... You have interviews, you’re putting, you know, inquiries out, you’re showing up for conferences or workshops or events or things, and sometimes things don’t always go the way that you planned.

Jennie: So today you have a little experience [00:01:00] with that, which is why we’re even talking today.

Diana: Well, it’s, it’s more like things don’t go the way that I plan. It’s more like I had no idea about my own plans because I’m juggling so much. Bec- I, I’m on my way to this pretty, uh, big conference in Washington, DC, and I’m going to present on a book that I wrote, uh, called I Know I Should Exercise, But: 44 Reasons Why We Don’t Move and How to Get Over Them.

Diana: And I’m going to present to a bunch of researchers and therapists about this sort of model of what gets in the way of us exercising. And I open up my American Airlines app and realize I have booked myself a ticket today and a ticket tomorrow. I bought two plane tickets to this conference without any awareness that I had already bought one.

Diana: And so I had to decide, am I gonna go tomorrow or gonna go today? And, uh, I canceled and said, “Hey, I’d rather...” And I called you, I texted you right away, “Hey, I have an open af- afternoon. Do you wanna meet up, Jennie?” But this is the case, right? [00:02:00] W- when you have so much on your plate because you’re, you are moving pieces around to make things happen, little bits of sand drop through the cracks.

Diana: I think, yes, that’s, that is a problem. But what’s the bigger problem is how we treat ourselves after that or during that, or the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our capabilities. I think I said, “I’m so disorganized,” and you said, “Oh, I’m so disorganized.” And then we said, “Wait a minute, maybe we need to change our script.”

Diana: Right? Which is hilarious because that’s what your entire book is about, is telling yourself a different story, not believing the first story that y- comes into your head, which is, oh, well, what happened was you told me that you did this and I laughed and I said, “Oh, I, I do things like that all the time. I c- I think of myself as a terribly disorganized person.”

Diana: And that’s when we both stopped and said, “Well, wait a minute. What would the other story here be?” So that’s what- Yeah ... we thought we would talk about. Yeah. I often [00:03:00] think of the Lucille Ball episode when the chocolates are coming down the conveyor belt, and they start speeding up, and she’s stuffing them in her bra, and she’s stuffing it in her face, and they’re, and they’re flying off.

Diana: And then you realize, well, wait a minute here, there’s an abundance of chocolate coming your way. Like, this is, this may be a good thing, you know? Like, you have a conference that you’re going to, or you have all these different opportunities that you’re juggling. And we could start there with, uh, shifting to that type of a story, which is a story of there’s so much ‘cause it’s an experience of abundance.

Diana: It’s an experience of opportunities, of possibilities, which already shifts our mind into a different place. And you could notice that even in your body when you shift from, “I’m a disorganized mess,” to, “Oh, I have so many opportunities and possibilities right now.” Well, and what’s interesting in your case is that you, it, it wasn’t like you didn’t have a plane ticket.

Diana: You had two plane tickets. So in some ways there’s a story of [00:04:00] you’re quite organized. You were gonna get yourself to this conference no matter what. Or a story of I didn’t trust myself, that I bought the plane ticket. So I had, I had to do it twice. But yes, I mean, the, the nature of the human mind is that it’s a story-making machine, and actually everything that we experience comes through the, our, our mental filters, and we get to be the chooser of which stories are most helpful.

Diana: In Buddhism, there’s something called wise speech, and wise speech has these four qualities to it. The first quality is, is it helpful? The next one is, is it kind? The next one, which I think is a very useful one, is, is it timely? Like, is it a good time for m- for me to tell myself this story? Sometimes you might wanna tell yourself the story that you’re disorganized and you need to go get organized.

Diana: You need to, you know, clean stuff up, do a little , spring cleaning. But telling yourself that when you’re in the middle of a ton of other things and now you have to deal with your low mood and feeling bad about yourself isn’t helpful. And then the fourth [00:05:00] quality of wise speech is, is it true? Sometimes we do need to question, is it true?

Diana: Is it not true? But most of the time, if we’re getting all wrapped up with the, is it true? Is it not true? Am I disorganized or not? We’re just doing black and white thinking, and it’s m- usually more a little bit of both. That type of questioning our thoughts or questioning our stories and asking ourselves what would be the most helpful, what would be the most kind, what would be the most timely, and maybe what would be the most true, is a better angle to take with it, I think.

Diana: I love that. I love that so much. I know another thing that happens when writers are juggling all the things is sometimes we, we drop one of the balls and w- we disappoint someone. So let’s say in a different iteration of this that you actually were supposed to fly yesterday, and so you missed the conference.

Diana: You know, that, that happens when you have a whole bunch of things going on, or you wrote the time wrong down for the podcast interview, or you missed [00:06:00] some critical deadline, and now you have on top of that like, “Oh, I, I let these people down. I said I was gonna show up, and I’m not.” Or, you know, what, what do we do when the disorganization leads to those kinds of thoughts?

Diana: Mm-hmm. Well, if, if there is something you need to clean up, sometimes we do need to clean up. Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of getting radically honest with ourself, and there’s, there’s t- two layers to that. Guilt is a, actually an emotion that we evolved as humans for a good reason, to clean stuff up. I made a mistake, I feel a little guilty, I go apologize.

Diana: Um, I’ve, I had a, I gave, I did a white lie about something, I got caught, so I admit it. You know, whatever it is. That happened this morning. My son took my AirPod and he, he wouldn’t fess up. And finally he fessed up. I’m like, “See, doesn’t it feel better just to be honest?” Like, it’s just be honest about it.

Diana: But there’s a, there’s a distinction between guilt, [00:07:00] which motivates us to just, just to clean stuff up, and shame. Shame is I am bad. There’s something wrong with me. I’m a bad person because I scheduled two flights or because I, you know, had, said a white lie to my mom for taking her AirPod. Shame is pretty detrimental, and it’s the type of emotion that makes us climb back into a hole and not put ourselves out there.

Diana: And as writers, we need to be putting ourselves out there a lot. We need to be making lots of mistakes. Maybe every once in a while feeling a little bit guilty for something that we need a course correction on, but we course correct and we move on, as opposed to shame of I am bad, and then we’re paralyzed, frozen, and we go nowhere.

Diana: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you’re making me think of something that happened to me one time when I was out there promoting a book, and I had been invited to do the keynote speech at a big conference. And- There was a process in place where [00:08:00] my presentation was vetted. Like, I had to submit it and, um, and it was vetted and, and we were really clear on what I was talking about and what I was doing there vis-a-vis what some other of the speakers were doing.

Diana: So there was this nice work on the whole presentation, and I felt really confident about what I was doing. And I, I did the, um, presentation and, and it was sort of s- short and, um, I thought it was awesome. And then I got feedback from the conference presenters that I had completely misunderstood my role, that I should have spoken three times longer than I had, that I had delivered something sort of thin and not what they were expecting and what they had hired me for.

Diana: I, I just remember I... Actually, what I did was I gave the money back that they had paid me. [00:09:00] I felt so bad. I felt so shameful that I, that I said, “I, I can’t take the money if, if it didn’t go well. You know, I’m giving it back.” I was so freaked out about it. But as... This is years and years ago. As the years have gone by, I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’ve thought, it wasn’t actually my fault.

Diana: Like, I did i- all the steps that I did to make sure I was doing what I thought I was doing, and somehow I told the story that it was my... I did something bad. So- Yeah. Yeah ... that’s kinda, that’s what’s coming up for me when you said that. Isn’t that amazing? I think that that can be, um, our experience in so many different ways where we can fall into feeling bad, we can, um, we have experiences of feeling insignificant.

Diana: I mean, especially when you’re putting yourself out there, and we take one little thread of feedback, and it can destroy us, especially where that feedback is coming from. Because you’re getting that feedback from the presenter, you know, whatever committee. The person who hired me, yeah. Who hired you.

Diana: Imagine if w- if we went around and [00:10:00] we passed a microphone to the people in the audience. You would have been gotten a l- very different, you know, perspectives. And the, the question becomes, like, who, who am I doing this for? And, um, there was in- unclear communication. The last time I was at a big, uh, conference, uh, just a few months ago- I gave what I thought...

Diana: It was on, on the book Wise Effort, and I gave what I thought was, like, the best talk I’d ever given, ever, on this. I was, I was flying high. I got great feedback. I thought it was, I thought it was pretty amazing. And it was- You’re like, “I’m so good at this.” Yeah. Yeah. I’m like, “I, I finally nailed it.” Yeah. Like, so many times.

Diana: I finally said it the way I wanna say it. And, and when I give these talks, I- there- I- a la Jennie Nash, I bring in a giant notepad and a Sharpie, and I sometimes I do these little one-on-one exercises with people in the audience demonstrating Wise Effort. Like, draw what it feels like in your body and, and then I hold up the notepad for everyone to see.

Diana: And so it was the day after, I’m leaving the conference, and I had the notepad under my arm, and [00:11:00] I’m getting a coffee, and this guy comes up to me looking like a very stately psychologist. He comes up to me, um, in line and he’s like, “Oh, did you go to the conference?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “I...” And he said, “Oh, big notepad.”

Diana: I said, “Yeah, actually, I presented yesterday.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, great. What did you present on?” And I said, “Well, I- uh, my name’s Anna Hill. I presented on Wise Effort.” And he said- ... “Oh, I think I went to that workshop.”

Diana: It sounds like it made a mark. Insignificance. Insignificance. And i- in Buddhism, there’s something called the, um, the four worldly winds, which are the, the, the things that push... Or sometimes they say the eight worldly winds, but they’re things that push us off our game, right? And they are fame and insignificance.

Diana: Ah. When you’re on either one of those, right, you’re- you got, you got, you got a chance that you’re gonna get knocked off. Another one is pleasure and pain. Another one is, um, blame and disrepute. Ooh. Ooh. Which is what you’re talking about there, blame. I feel like I was blamed. It knocked me off. [00:12:00] And then the last one is gain and loss.

Diana: Hmm. And so as writers, we’re constantly, like, facing those winds, right? I get pr- I get, I feel famous, I feel insignificant. Oh, this is so great, so much pleasure. This sucks. This is the most painful thing I’ve ever been through in my life, right? Oh, I got the book deal. Ooh, it’s with this, you know, kinda crappy publisher.

Diana: So f- you know, all up and down, up and down, up and down. And the question becomes, I mean, back to the story of juggling all the things. If you’re juggling all those things, where are your feet planted? Are you stable? Even, even if you’re dropping stuff right and left. And that doesn’t really matter if you’re dropping stuff, if you feel planted in who you are, what you have to offer, you know?

Diana: And yeah, you’re gonna ... It’s gonna go high and it’s gonna go low, and you’ll double book. Well, that’s what I thought was remarkable about what you did today. You pivoted so fast. I think you texted me, might have been before 8:00 AM. You were just, just like, “I have a whole day.” You know, do, like you just started making meaning of your new [00:13:00] reality, which was you’re not on an airplane today.

Diana: You’re on an airplane tomorrow, and it seemed like it took you no time at all to, like you said, your feet were so planted that you sort of just shook it off and moved on. Is, is that what it felt like? Yeah, it felt like carpe diem. You know? It was one of those, I was mad, I was disappointed, I was ... I, I hate those airline apps, and then I’m calling the airline.

Diana: I was in the struggle for a little bit, and then, and then I just dropped it and said, “Okay, then what do I wanna do today?” So already today I, I’ve been to yoga, I went to I went to Savoy to get my favorite salad, I’m talking to Jennie Nash. I’m like, “This is a great day. I’m so glad I’m not in Washington DC.”

Diana: Wait, is your favorite salad the kale blueberry? At Savoy? It’s ... No. Yeah I go s- I go to the salad bar because they, I think they’re the only salad bar that has like the, the most amazing salmon, like in the salad bar. Like, you can just like, you know, put wild salmon- Pile it on. Okay, okay ... yeah, pile it on. So that’s what I do.

Diana: Yeah. All right. We’re talking about [00:14:00] a little deli in our town. Um- Down in Santa Barbara. You gotta go ... I mean, it does sound like a great day. And then- Yeah ... we’re recording a podcast, ‘cause why not? So that, um, that’s really instructive. You, you sort of let the struggle be, and, and then you said being solid on your feet and not spiraling into the blame, um, of it.

Diana: Yeah. Choosing ... You know, you get to be the chooser of the story that you tell. And, um, and so, you know, choose, choose ones that are kind and ones that are, you know, for the most part true, but also ones that are helpful and timely. Yeah. And then when you do that, you can kind of n- weather stuff a little bit better I think.

Diana: And I’m curious what happens if this kind of thing happens to you and other people say, “You’re so disorganized. You need to slow down. You need to stop saying yes to so many things.” What do you say about that? ‘Cause that happened to you. Jennie, are you... I was gonna say, are you, are you only asking that because this happens to you?[00:15:00]

Diana: Yes. Does this happen to you sometimes, Jennie? It happens to me all the time. What do you do when people ask you that? Oh, dang. You’re putting it on me. Um, I usually totally take it in and think, “Oh yeah, there’s something wrong with me. I should say, say no more often. I should go slower. I should, uh, should, should, should.”

Diana: Mm-hmm. I do. That’s what I tend to do. Yeah. And then what are the, the costs and consequences of that for you? I lose faith in my own knowing, my own intuition. I like to be busy, I like to be challenged, I like to have all the balls in the air. Um, and so I lose faith in that, and it doesn’t feel good. Uh, then I, I also feel like I have to get defensive, um, why I do that.

Diana: And, uh, so then I’ll bring that defensiveness into my relationships. So it, it impacts me both inside and it impacts my [00:16:00] relationships. And then I think I second-guess the next time I say yes to something that feels like too much. So there’s like- Mm ... a lot of repercussions. Mm-hmm. There’s like dominoes falling from, from that.

Diana: Mm-hmm. And then if I were to say, that happens to me, you know, what you just described in terms of people are telling me, “Diana, Diana, you’re doing too much. You’re taking on too much. You’re, um, juggling too much. That’s why you messed up the plane ticket. You need to be more organized”- Yeah ... what advice would you tell me?

Diana: Gosh. Um I don’t think that I would’ve gotten to where we got together. Um, I think, I think I might be a person who would say that, who would say, “Yeah, you’re moving too fast. What are you, what are you doing?” Hmm. “Slow down. Take a minute.” I think I- Mm-hmm ... I think I might say that [00:17:00] to you. Mm-hmm. That was in fact the first thought that came through my head when you told me what happened to you.

Diana: I was like, “She’s doing too much. She’s ta- she’s got too many irons in the fire.” Mm-hmm. I put that... I did have that blame thought. Mm-hmm. Um- So it’s a, it’s a really interesting thing, this, you know, sort of the blame, or even if you’re s- what you’re saying has a, has a kernel of truth to it. When you tell it to somebody, you don’t necessarily get back, “Oh, you’re right, Jennie.”

Diana: What you get back is what, what you just described, which I said, what are the costs and consequences to you? Well, I go into either self-blame, blame, or defensiveness, right? So the question becomes, if, if there’s a kernel of truth or maybe there is a shift in, in, you know, I’m juggling too much, that’s why I booked two plane tickets, yeah, you know.

Diana: Um, or you’re juggling too much and your friends are noticing it. There’s also another kernel of truth in there, which is there’s a reason why you’re juggling all those things. Yeah. And, [00:18:00] and, and I would be... I’d actually go for that first. Hmm. So I would go for, in, in asking of you, uh, if I were your friend and I was noticing this, or if a friend were noticing it of you, to ask yourself, why am I juggling so much?

Diana: Hmm. What is important to me? Like, what, what... You know, why are you so busy, Jennie? What’s important to you? Oh, gosh. Um, I feel like I could answer that very easily. I hate missing opportunities, and the opposite of that is I love seizing opportunities. Things, really good things have come to me from... I’m gonna use the word impulsive, and there’s a reason I’m using that word, but impulsive decisions.

Diana: A lot of what I’ve built has, has come from that. I’m really good at that. Um, I think I’m good at juggling a lot of things. Uh, I like the feeling of, [00:19:00] uh, fast decision-making. I think I do better making decisions under pressure than I do when I have a lot of time. Yeah. So there’s a lot of reasons why I like having a lot of irons in the fire.

Diana: Mm-hmm. It doesn’t scare me. It usually energizes me if I were, uh, able to do them all without the blame or the defensiveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s a quality I actually like about myself. Yeah. I, I, I’ve, I’ve gotten a sense of that from you, and there’s also a bit of... And I’m willing to have the, I’m okay maybe more than some other people may be okay with having a little bit of that, you know- a, a tousled hair experience of things are kinda moving at me quickly, fast, you know?

Diana: And, and there’s a little bit of feeling like I’m kinda juggling too much. Like I- Yeah ... I’m willing to tolerate [00:20:00] that feeling because of these other things that you, that you care about. And the, it’s the, it’s the second arrow. It’s the layer on top of the blame and defensiveness that is the problem, not necessarily the layer of, I juggle a lot, it’s kind of a mess sometimes, and then it’s also exhilarating and I, I, I, it’s impulsive and, and I found that that’s actually a secret to my success.

Diana: Yeah. And there’s, um, it’s, there’s a, there’s a thing in psychology where they talk about, um, are you willing to pay the price? And what that means is like, you know, for example in, in a relationship, you’re never gonna get everything that you want. Are you willing to- You’re not ... you’re, are you willing to pay the price of like, you know, he has all of these qualities, but then there’s this aspect of him that wouldn’t, you know, he has that too.

Diana: Am I, am I willing for, because I love all of this, to also have that? Yeah. And if you love the intensity and the, um, uh, um, you know, the, [00:21:00] the level of feeling and impulsivity, then you have to be willing to pay the price of sometimes things being in that tousled hair state. And I’m, and I’m, I’m the same. You know?

Diana: I don’t, I’m not meticulous with things like plane tickets. Yeah. I don’t spend my... Like, my husband, he would spend like, you know, double check, triple check, put in the code for everything kinda guy. Yeah. Make sure we don’t have any credits. I’m like, I’m just... I’m just booking my flight ... No, what, what’s the harm?

Diana: What, what harm was done? Yeah. No one died.

Diana: And I can pivot quickly, so it’s fine. You know? And, and that’s, so I’m willing to pay the price. I love that so much. So that’s the story. The story is not, look at Diana, she’s so chaotic. Look at Jennie, she’s got too many irons in the fire. It’s we’ve chosen to pay that price- Mm-hmm ... for being this way, for working this way, for moving through the world this way.

Diana: I love that. Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, I feel like that is a great place to end, and you get to continue on with your great day, ‘cause it’s still the afternoon, so who knows what will come out of this day for you. Maybe something good. Yeah, surprise. Thanks for joining us, and have a good, uh, conference.

Diana: And for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.

Diana: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:23:00] work