Architectural Drawing: Using AI Without Losing Craft - with JJ Zanetta

Karl: So welcome to Aligned on AI, the podcast where we have real conversations with business leaders about what's changing in their industry and where AI will actually help. So today I'm joined by JJ Zanetta, based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in the US, who has spent nearly two decades working in architectural illustration, visual communication, and urban design visualization, and now runs Zaneta Illustration. JJ has built a reputation for helping architects, landscape architects, urban designers, developers and municipalities bring ideas to life through compelling visual storytelling. In this conversation we explore how illustration helps design teams make better decisions, why strong fundamentals matter more than simply learning the latest software, where AI can genuinely support creativity, how visual communication influences projects and communities, and what the future may look like for designers navigating Rapid technological change. We will also discuss whether AI is replacing creativity or helping to preserve it. After all, if AI can generate an image in seconds, why are the best designers still sketching? And perhaps more importantly, can a computer ever quite replicate that magical moment when a designer confidently says, just imagine this, while drawing on the back of a napkin. So JJ, welcome to the podcast.
JJ: Karl.
Karl: So before we divide dive even into AI and technology, could you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and and your career journey?
JJ: Sure. Well, I think you've framed some of the the questions surrounding the the career the visualization, but also architecture and and design in general. And I'm sure some of the conversations we'll have are are are quite meta in a sense and philosophical, but they they they very are directly impacting the way we design and the way we think. And I'm I'm really happy to be speaking about those. I'm an architectural illustrator. I work by hand. I was trained and learned and mentored at Urban Design Associates here in Pittsburgh BA. And by the name Urban Design Associates, that's that's their that's their niche. But they also study architecture as it as the the two need to be be in harmony to really have a have a great impact in in design and and the built environment. and and the illustrator there, David Shaunt, was he is untrained as an architect, but he really sort of led the studio in in its visioning and establishing character. So they leaned on him as almost a designer very early on in their conceptual process. And that was the way I was trained and the way I plugged into and interfaced with and still continue to with with design teams. now and I I think that was a true blessing to be able to to understand my role as not only just illustrator but also also designer, concept designer and and getting out in front of the projects and and having a voice in the design rather than just being completely on the back end. doing a hand drawing illustration, I think a lot of that work has sort of been replaced by the CGI. So I think I I really am thankful to to to assume a greater role in the design teams rather than just be sort of the the guy that draws the pretty picture.
Karl: Yeah, so where where did this interest stem from? It's obviously you've got combined interest in arts, architecture and and drawing. Where where did that stem from? Was it was it a school based thing or did it just come later in life?
JJ: It had I think it had been present for a long time. I just always seemed to be lost in a drawing even when I shouldn't be. But
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: yeah, the regular life was just too boring or or or I don't know. Math was too boring for me. I'm not I'm not quite sure. So so the the the page of my notebooks would just be would filled with things that are not what I'm supposed to be doing at the time.
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: But no, drawing was I was just always fascinated by drawing and then and later I think I developed the the the interest in architecture and j in illustrating the details of of what I thought were were beautiful buildings and even just capturing light was was interesting. Is it my first love was sort of pen and ink and drawing and then I I got into watercolor. So so but just by that but the different medias you you get Captured by different aspects of what you're observing. So the details and and the architecture were just so fun to capture with pen and ink. And then as you move into color and watercolor, the the you you study light a little bit differently than you might in pen and ink. So there were just sort of like endless aspects of of what practicing in these different mediums would would open these doors to to different observations and and really just enrich The way that you observe architecture in the world around you.
Karl: Brilliant, so I guess I mean a lot of people do they stick to sort of more or even go back to pure creativity is what they they realise they really love and and I I'm I'm guessing a little bit that might have been there really early from you. So you thought, Do you know what, architectural illustration is where I really want to be rather than I don't know, try and become an architect which was not taking you in the direction. Is that fair or or did you you know, I don't know, do you have any regrets? Do you think, you know, this is exactly where I want to be or actually I wish I'd become an architect? How do you feel about that?
JJ: Well that's that's sort of a loaded question. I I my degree is in art education and when
Karl: Okay, yeah.
JJ: I was when I was considering which path to to go down, I was considering landscape architecture. I have an uncle, Jack Laquatra, who is a r a brilliant landscape architecture architect here in the city of Pittsburgh. and he was sort of pushing me towards landscape architecture. I I also had an opportunity to pursue some athletics in in college and and have some scholarship money at that. And it was very evident that yeah, I couldn't practice architecture or landscape architecture and and do athletics. not
Karl: Okay, yeah.
JJ: only just the rigors of athletics, but the arc architecture s school is just is you hear nightmare stories about people all nighters and just living in the studio and and these sorts of things. It's it just was not it was I wasn't able to do both. And I
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: don't have a regret about that, because I think I I think I would have ended up here no matter which degree I would have chose. But
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: But I I was laid off in two thousand nine from Urban Design Associates. And I had this sort of fork in the road 'cause I had to earn a living for myself. And I was twenty-three or twenty four at the time. I thought I was better a better illustrator than I really was at the time, as as as many young people just so sort of overestimate their their skills. And I certainly was in that camp. and but I just couldn't imagine myself. I was sort of hooked. Even even the the moment I learned that architectural illustration was a real career, I was sort of hooked on that. And once I had a few years of experience, I I sort of hung up the idea of being a an art teacher and wanted really pursue architectural illustration. And and that's that's sort of where it's it's To answer your question, it just felt inevitable. And I don't have regrets. I
Karl: Yeah, yeah.
JJ: my my my my my job I f I find is very enriching and engaging and and collaborative. Though I work in a studio alone, I get to work remotely and and sometimes on site with some of the some designers that I just have tremendous respect for and and it's just led led me s to very interesting opportunities. So no no regrets here.
Karl: Yeah, don't don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting you might be I don't know, regretting it, thinking that way at all.
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: I was I I was you know, I I could relate to that a little bit in that I I remember obviously deciding quite early on actually that I wanted to to to really go down a landscape architecture route without really appreciating what a big subject it was and how much you needed to learn in so many different areas, which, you know, I I sort of committed down that path. But I like to learn everything in depth. So I really I don't know why I could cut out such a a route when I I maybe should have just kept it pure like yourself and just you know, done it like that. So maybe I'm the one who's who's regretted it. But it sounds like you you you knew pretty early on what what you wanted to do. So I mean was it purely, you know, being being let go by your employer that that led you to establish Zenet of Illustration or or was I don't know, was it always there in the background? Was the revision there or it was just, you know, something you needed to do in the end?
JJ: Well there I guess it was I I if if Urban Design Associates had continued on and there was no housing crisis, I I I don't know if I'd still be there today, but but I might be. And it's it's rather th it's rather rare that architecture studios carry in house illustrators, let alone there were three of us at the time I was there. So that
Karl: Okay.
JJ: was
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: is really really unique to urban design associates and and their their business model and and what they valued. That's not you c you can't go on monster dot com or indeed and and find
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: a job as an architectural illustrator with with no degree in architecture or landscape architecture. I I I I sort of couldn't I didn't have anything else to bring to the table besides my ability to draw and provide you know, these character sketches and and help and I'm not diminishing what I what I learned or what I could do. It just wasn't the most marketable skill to go job hunting with. So I think there was just these forces that and and there there's an entire there's an entire era of illustrators who are practicing as sole illustrators. So I think that's just the More or less the nature of architectural illustration and folks working by hand.
Karl: Yeah, no, that'll that all makes sense. I mean many people assume that that assume, I suppose, that drawing is becoming less important as computer software becomes more powerful, but obviously you see it differently. You you see this day in, day out, you see the advantages of it. What tell tell me what you feel about that.
JJ: I had I had the the good fortune, I guess you could say, of learning just just learning my craft just before CGI had sort of completely taken over. And also the good fortune of working for a firm that worked that really valued the work done by hand. Had I not learned those principles and the foundations of of drawing by hand, perspective constructing perspective by hand. learning how to build value with with line, how to lay a wash in watercolor, all these things. it though those are sort of those have laid the foundation of of not only the way I see and the way I work, but the those have just carried through the it's it's the look that I want to achieve. And and if you go back to the Why why do we even use watercolor and architecture? And it's because the the the media itself is transparent and it lets the line work show through. And the lines are so you know, they're at one point I think they called them architectural delineators. And the
Karl: Okay. Yeah.
JJ: line work is so valuable in in showing the detail and in in architecture. So w doing b producing renderings in watercolor. It's sort of lockstep with architecture. It just it the the media helps convey what what the subject wants to get across. And and also what with watercolor, you could just so so beautifully convey the the sense of light in a rendering and while while letting that pen and that line work and the detail of the building and the architecture show through. So that's sort of like I at the core of the way I wanted to use technology as I move forward. And I adopted drawing on the iPad and I render things in Photoshop and and I really break down the characteristics of watercolor and pen. And I tailor all these little tools and have, you know, these little actions in Photoshop and my my specific pens and way I draw and procreate on the iPad just to mimic what would happen by hand. And it it it was really was a conscious effort and it took a lot of trying and failing and but but I have it a place where I think that everything feels that it's done by hand and it is done by hand. But it does capture those those moments where, you know, you maybe you mess up or the not maybe not a smudge, but the unintentional little things that you sort of have to leave on the on the page and be okay with a little bit of imperfection, that's what a drawing is.
Karl: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I mean I guess y you know, there's there's a there is a difference between visualising, communicating something and designing something. So but I think you you work very closely with the designers, I think certainly historically. So so how does drawing help designers think through their problems rather than just simply presenting a a a solution or a or a proposal?
JJ: Boy, there's there's so much this this is such a a a subject that I think is so important and central to our entire industry right now. And we really have to grapple with and we have been as architects. technology has really affected our field and and the I at the beginning of my career I was doing a lot more 3D modeling because that wasn't such an asset that students were graduating from college with and studios, especially smaller studios, didn't have that ability in-house. So I would be sent a set of PDFs and construct the 3D model, a rough 3D model of whatever the architect was proposing. And I would get an email back and saying this this isn't what I designed. And It was a very strange experience because yes, it was what you designed. I modeled it according to your drawings. And I think that the advantages of of 3D modeling and some of the some of the technology that has entered our field is that we can visualize these things as they happen. But I also think that it's it's kind of weakening our ability to to envision those in our minds. And and architecture schools certainly have not have they spend very little time on hand drawing and it almost feels like okay well you you you came to architecture school of course you we have to teach you a little bit of drawing and and that that's it's almost it's almost like patronizing architects drawing rather than studying it as a as a real design tool which I see it as and if you are if you are going to design something I see drawing in two ways. I see it almost as this this thing that you are creating does not exist yet. Drawing is a way of of helping your mind see it on a piece of paper because we could see it in our minds, but once you see it on paper, it becomes a little bit more perceptible and it becomes malleable and and your brain really is sort of meant to function like this. It having a conversation, describing a design to somebody. doesn't really work. So you need someone to draw it. And and there's a rigidity to the 3D modeling tools and you become captured sort of by the technology and the tools that are available through that. And it change your changes your cognit cognitive process as you design. If you're designing with a mouse, or you know, I know some people have very fancy mouses. but there's this there's this notion of drawing almost to discover. And I think that's just such a beautiful process. And it's a process that that I think needs to be held a little bit more sacred in our field rather than giving that's just where the true joy and the creativity lies in that that initial conceptualization of s of something. And and it is the d most difficult, right? We're just creating this thing from a program of square footage and uses from our clients and then And precedent imagery and now now we have to assimilate that all of that into a a a representation on paper that that gets people excited and and and a drawing that that really strikes the chord of of yes, client, like this is what I was talking about, but also the architect from their years of experience visiting places. studying materials, all of this. This then the architect is almost like the the the muse through the client's vision, the architect's experience, and now this this this building is is is gonna be an artifact of this collaboration.
Karl: Yeah, and you know, you you can try and describe what you want in words, can't you? And if you described it to ten different people and a s asked each one of those people to draw what I've just described, they will each draw something completely different as well, won't they?
JJ: Mm.
Karl: You can only convey so much with words. And if you are drawing it there in front of everybody everybody's on the same page. Everybody's getting ideas sparked from what you're drawing as well. And, you know, your brain isn't filling in gaps from, I don't know, you know, what you're saying. It it's seeing it and processing it in in from exactly what you've drawn. And I think the
JJ: Mm.
Karl: other thing is of course that, you know, you start to learn as you start to draw as well, don't you? You start to think, well hold on, hold on, no, that's not gonna quite work there. Are you sure that's what you intended? And you know, you get that conversation going as well. I've experienced this myself with you know, in landscape architecture, not the same as architecture, but you start to learn so much when you're doing the actual drawing. And if you can do it quickly, then it really builds up a bit of momentum on its own. And that's not necessarily something which is very easy to do on on a computer. Just doing it freehand with sketch, you know, and talking it through, start again, just let's tweak that, let's change. You know, it it's so much more rewarding I think for everybody that's involved in the on the design team. So I I I can sort of relate to what you're saying there to to some degree. But it's it's I'll before I forget, I'll just ask this question 'cause it popped it popp popped
JJ: Yeah, please, please.
Karl: into my head that when you were saying that, well, are people who wanted to become architects twenty years ago different to the people who want to become architects today? Or do you think the same fundamental you know, aspects of what what they really enjoyed at school? still lead them in that direction, like, you know, your your obviously your your creativity, your your artistic nature, your your sort of master craftsman type approach to to what you're doing, isn't necessarily what really is what's thought of as being part of that job anymore. Is it changing the that that aspect of it?
JJ: I don't I don't know, Karl. I I think there are some some factors that are influencing folks entering the the world of architecture these days, almost not not political forces, but market forces or or just circumstances that we're all experiencing as as people who live on a planet and as people rather than professionals and And we experience what the experience what what we're all experiencing are just increased costs of living and and things like this. And and here in the US we just have this perpetuation of the the monotonous suburb. And I think there's just been a reaction against that. And I think young folks are very in tune with what they the the way that they want to live their lives and and they're you see younger younger folks wanting a more human experience, a more enriching experience. And there's this happens and you see you see sort of like these these rise of of local more more hyper local businesses or you know but people tend to enjoy their local coffee shop more the more than they do the Starbucks. in the US you'll see old pre-war neighborhoods are valued a little higher than than the newer in terms of maybe square footage than than than the newer builds. And that's sort of because you have this these these amenities of of walkability and things. So I think I think there's a generation of of young architects who are coming in that are that are more motivated by solve helping to solve. social problems that we might encounter. And I think it's it's a very valuable and I I I I I enjoy that aspect where we're just not going into create you know self you know the we we all know the word starchitect. You know, we're not just go entering the profession just to to create the weirdest the thing that we might that stop someone in the street and say, wow, look at how
Karl: Mm.
JJ: how creative or or wild that that little building is. where a a lot of architects are are approaching their their craft or their profession with the the hopes of helping other people. So I'm very I'm very encouraged by that. And but I do think there are many different types of people who enter the field of architecture. You have folks who are more artistic, you have folks who are more engineering. minded, structural, structure, I don't know how structural based or architectural engineering minded. I think you have folks who are very much excel in maybe project management and that that sort of part of our field. some folks who are just captured by the the beauty of certain materials and and and details and then you have architects who are just just love how cities are built and how they how they come to be. And and so you just have this entire range of scales and niches of expertise that that that attract people to our field.
Karl: Yeah, you're you're reminding me of my seven year old son now who who he loves drawing and colouring in, but he also loves being on the computer as well. Minecraft especially. He's always building stuff with
JJ: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Karl: Minecraft. And he y only yesterday he showed me this hotel that he built in Minecraft and I was actually quite blown away by it to be fair. But you know, this is with no particular you know, there's there's been no sort of direction forced on it. But naturally I guess there's millions of kids who are building things in Minecraft. And this is their natural education about how to go about communicating, isn't it? It's it's it's moving away, you know, when I was a kid, I was drawing everything. You know, my friends w were asking me to draw things. They wanted me to do it 'cause they loved to see the drawings that I was producing. Now I'm sure that's not the same anymore. I'm sure, you know, it's much more sort of software a and computer driven. So maybe I should be getting my seven year old to draw me what he's just produced on Minecraft. I think that I'll I'll get that balance right,
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: I think.
JJ: Hey, I don't I don't this folks are learning differently these days, absolutely. And maybe there is some connection between hand and mouse because it's it is still
Karl: Mm.
JJ: sort of like a physical action of of doing the thing. you know, there's there's drawing drawing to sort of like record ideas in in your sketchbook. And drawing almost if if you compare it almost to writing and the effect of cursive that it had on the way people wrote the the way writing in print and typewriters, all people have observed that those influenced the way that the sentence was structured. You know, typewriters had shorter sentences, but you were very careful on how you wrote and and you your word selection and because you had to do it more slowly and carefully. You couldn't redo it. Cursive is more free-flowing and you would find that these the the the sentences became longer and more fluid. And and printing just I think that shortened sentences. But there's that if you compare it to that It's such an interesting concept that subconsciously we are not aware. We're just we're not aware of the influence and in the way that we're designing influences the actual design. If you asked your son to draw a hotel or build one in Minecraft, they're they're gonna be wildly different things. Or or maybe, you know, a fun exercise, Karl, might be to have your son draw a plan of his hotel. And then build it in Minecraft and just just exercise that that visioning first and then being able to to to build that. So this is it's it's fascinating. And drawing is not the only way, but it is a a way of recording mentally. And the the if there's another illustrator with zero experience, but equally capable of drawing and representation. Through through drawing and painting. the difference between the two of us would be the experience. And Once I pick up the pencil, my hand is connected to my brain. And now all of these projects, thousands of projects that I've worked on, are all kind of connected back into the pencil. And they inform and all of the places I've been and different conversations I've had with folks up about their preferences or what they'd love to see in their town. You know, all of these things sort of feed into what what you draw. And it's a it's a it's it's something that I really just hope that architects value in the future and and it is a way of note taking in a sense. You know, you sit down in a class, you write your notes, and you review your notes. And then as as you review them, it almost is like it it it you can almost hear the lecture happening in the background of your mind of at the moment that you wrote that note. And this is almost the the same experience in sketching architecture, you sort of like remember you you can remember sitting at the the the cafe that you were drawing the the corner building or this this awning detail that you really enjoyed that these are these are rig recordings of of not only architectural details but moments and your brain remembers those and and this is the cognitive aspect of of the action of drawing that really brings such such joy back to our our craft and I really hope that people can come to enjoy that as we shift into like a hyper technological field, there's there's a really human aspect that that keeps it joyful.
Karl: Yeah. I think you've described that really well. I think that that that was yeah quite enlightening actually as a good differentiator between, you know, what a person you know using their their own experiences and their experience and their own thoughts from that into to new effect. It's very hard to see that really coming through AI or a or just a piece of software, you know, you haven't quite got that same thing. flare that's naturally flowing out, have you? And you I've just you've just reminded me actually that I cut you off when I was telling you about, you know, what I thought about designing with somebody sketching it out in the team doing it. Was there something you wanted to to say that I brutally cut you off about?
JJ: I don't I don't remember you cutting me off, so I think I think we'll just
Karl: I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
JJ: k move along. No. No. I mean do you have anything
Karl: Yeah. That's
JJ: any any any other reactions or you know thoughts to what you'd like to prod at?
Karl: it's interesting, you know, as you get older, I feel like I remember less in a way, even though I've got all that experience. you know, it's it's those experiences from 30 years ago, for example, some of them might be as vivid as ever, some of them are maybe fading away because for whatever reason they're not recalled enough as often. And I I I used to count I I always have. I've always counted this by having what I call a wonder wall, where it w through my life, whenever I have seen something that I've really I don't know, it's sparked something different in my mind or I've done a a particular design that I thought, you know what, that's worth capturing or just anything, just any kinds of bits of inspiration which have just struck a chord with me or felt really potentially useful to really call back on at some point. No don't know when, but at some point that would be really good to
JJ: Mm-hmm.
Karl: call back on. It's just even on things like screensavers, you know, when you're on maybe you're on the phone and your computer goes into screensaver mode and then it will bring up my Wonder Wall and I'll see things that maybe I haven't seen. It's a little bit like the Amazon photos or something bringing up your your memories from ten years ago that you you've maybe forgotten about. So yeah, I can I can sort relate relate to that, maybe people can bring that out through software somehow, but I don't you know, I don't feel like it's gonna be quite as tangible as as the way that you've you've described it. But yeah, it's it's a really interesting way that you've described described that. And and and the way that we've we've seen maybe different people coming through I mean, you know, maybe Maybe there are people coming through who really like using building software, that's their thing. They like using visualisation software. So they actually
JJ: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karl: want to latch onto a sector or a a service area that for some reason appeals to them and and maybe that wasn't the same as twenty twenty or or more years ago. So yeah, maybe that that's a little bit like my son. And but yeah, I will take your suggestion away there. I will start to
JJ: Ha ha.
Karl: get get that spatial awareness aspect sort of ingrained in his mind a little bit. they're starting to learn about mapping and such like so maybe this is a a a good a good bolt on to that. But I mean, you know, you've got a lot of experience yourself. Have you got any advice that you would give to to someone maybe starting their career in this direction today who become a stronger designer maybe rather than just a simply a I don't know, simply a stronger technical person or you know, i in terms of they really want to embrace their artistic creative flair as well.
JJ: Well, boy, it's such a dynamic field. And if you had asked me ten years ago, I would I would very much be in the camp of you know, if you want a job as an architect, learn software, you know, be become good at Revit. it's a very marketable skill. an employable skill. If you are, if you are you have like a very creative itch to scratch as an architect, and you want to be more involved in design decisions and and and the creative discussions that happen around architecture, I would tell you to learn how to draw. And I would I would advise that you draw during meetings. before meetings and and of any time and present your ideas visually with sketches. And it sort of thrusts you into the conversation that's that's happening and these does and you have to you have to defend your drawing and and someone who has taken the time to draw something has has had to make more decisions or has had to make a lot of decisions to make that drawing be believable or provide a solution. And not, you know, there's there's the the drawing of discovery, self discovery, or discovery about the project. There's drawing and visualization to to communicate amongst your design internal design team. And then there's visualization and communication to to to sort of market, thinking about marketing your project to the outside the external world. and we're talking about internal communication here with your design team. And that that's that's the advice I would give to young folks. I think if you are an architecture student, I would I would be very I'd be very concerned about what you're learning. If you are learning tools or if you are gaining knowledge. And and I th it there's there's also there's there's a part of architecture that also requires a ton of wisdom to get things built and experienced. I would I would latch on to someone to get that experience. Working with contractors, working with developers, how to get money for a project, how to get things built, how to make sure that the details you designed are built the way that you had drawn them up, and communicating with with people. I think those are gonna be just those will be skills that will that that are sort of evergreen in our field. I a drawing is probably going to and the very creative aspects of our job are probably going to be further consolidated to to fewer and fewer leaders of the firm. That's just my that's just my hunch. but I do think it will be easier to have to run a small firm. because you'll have more productive capabilities. So if you want to be You know, we're it always seemed like a a very a s architecture shop of one or two people. There was so so much work to do and you had to sort of outsource construction drawings because they took, you know, a lot of of of man hours. You know, maybe this is something that's more achievable. So you can you start to build your own practice a little bit more easily than than it would or or it would just come with less headaches. Than it than it would in years past. But boy, I don't know if I answered the question, but I think there's lots of opportunities to to practice. But if you are just going to be an expert in technology and AI, that experience and wisdom, gaining that so that you can kind of pair up your expertise in your in the technology is gonna be more valuable than just being good at the technology itself.
Karl: Yeah, I think I can relate to this as well. And I think, you know, maybe moving forward, if you can communicate in a graphic graphically sort of orientated way by that I mean drawing, I think you're gonna stand yourself apart from people. You know, people get drawn forgive the pun to drawings and they are you know, if I I I remember it from early days, you know, you y you maybe you wanted needed to go to a meeting with a client weren't really sure what they were looking for at that stage. You hadn't got out of them what you needed. So rather than just go to the meeting empty-handed to talk about it, I'd just take two or three drawings with me. They're very simple
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: drawings, and just that one's completely different to that one, which is completely too different to that one, or it might be an amalgamation. And if nothing else, it just gives everybody something to talk about and really start creating some direction from it. So You know, thinking out loud, I think that's that's a great skill for people to to really embrace, I think, and and get the benefits of that, you know, because people will they'll naturally want to look at a drawing ten times more than they want to read a couple of paragraphs about what what your idea is. You know, it's just so much so much more relatable to you know, we we we you know, most of our communication I think is through our eyes it feels, and so You know, if if people
JJ: Mm, mm.
Karl: are gonna latch onto that that way way of just just naturally being, then you know, embrace it. Let let's let's not lose that through software. you know by all means, yes, you learn the tools that you're going to need to do much more than just the drawing, but yeah, don't underestimate the power of that of that drawing, I think as well.
JJ: Yeah. And I I don't wanna to to to come across as as someone that is not that's that's against AI. I I
Karl: So
JJ: don't think that's that's not the position I've ever sort of taken with technology as I draw on an iPad and I render in Photoshop. It's served me well, but there's always been a sort of guiding guiding principles that that help that really dictate How I use the technology rather than the technology like leading me into what it wants. And especially AI is just so powerful. It can really lead you in its I don't know, it's sort of like it's seductive in in what you're what it's able to do. And it almost sort of feels like, look, I did this, but it can it can give you, it can supply you with the imagery and And drawings to to to almost make it feel like you've thought an idea through. And then when you have a meeting and you have to present, you know, the the if you haven't actually done the the thinking behind those drawings, it's gonna be very difficult for you to be able to defend those. So when I put the pencil down, I don't, I need to make a decision where that pencil goes and exactly what I'm drawing. And I'm gonna find, I'm gonna draw some things that don't work. And through that process of of editing and making mistakes and I mean you remember laying the trace paper over and over and trying to work out an area. And there's some that's There is there is very good value in in taking the time to do those difficult tasks. and the way that I've sort of used AI and and what I in to enhance my hand drawings is maybe rather than just one still drawing that has as sort of like one use, maybe it can be become animated. Maybe it can turn into a CGI. drawing or rendering. Maybe I could change the season. maybe it could change maybe this is still, you know, up for debate, but you know, supply me with a slightly different angle. And and I I'll be interested to see. And and I am a I guess you could call me a specialist in in what I do. And the one thing that that AI is is giving people the illusion of Is it's giving us the sense that we can also become like the branding and the marketing arms of our own projects. And yes, it's very important to be able to sell your your project. But I I I I'm not so sure that the AI tools in our own hands are are the the best th thing for us to do. There are there are firms out there, agencies that have years of experience dealing with these projects and are and have done that deep learning who can then also use the AI tools. I think I think we're gonna find that that the experts in our field are gonna can are going to continue to be the experts because of their experience and however they use AI is is up to them, but they will use it in the best and and the most effective way because of their their experience. So that's that's how I approach what I do, I can I can understand which view angles are the most dynamic, create the best arguments, depending on who your audience is. And and that's That's all gained through experience and and we also we all as people I think need to recognize like our own shortcomings and realize that AI is not gonna be the solution to everything. There are real experts in every field. And just because AI can do something doesn't mean that necessarily we should or will give you the best outcome.
Karl: Yeah, and and to be fair to you, I think, you know, in previous conversations, yeah, I think you've got a a balanced view of AI and and I know you you've used some AI creative to leak creativity lead in your workflow. And you've described to me AI as being an augmentation tool. So what tell me a bit more about that. What what what does that mean in practice for y for your work?
JJ: Well, I I sort of view this in two different lenses and I've sorta been speaking on on both of them without addressing these different lenses that that I'm talking through. And I I have on on one hand, I just I have so much passion and and and reverence for the for drawing and I wanna share that joy with other architects and not just joy b because it I do think there are a lot of architects out there that are just not having a fulfilling career. And I think that drawing is is a means kind of back back to the joy of why you became an architect anyways. It's not it's not a career where where it it it is there are a lot of hours and it's so almost yeah, if you if you did the hourly rate of an architect, it would not be it would not be great for a lot of employees. because of oftentimes they're asked to work long hours. But I do think the drawing is a sort of path back to finding the joy back in architecture. And also designing well. When you draw something, you are sort of taking ownership and you want and you you it brings care and and craftsmanship back into the design. Whereas I I think the farther removed we get with with these digital tools, the the more emotionally removed we might be from the project or this is this is all just conjecture I guess, but I do think that drawing connects you to the to the design much more closely than than than a computer. You know, almost like writing writing a a note to somebody or a a birthday card. You know, you you almost experience the emotions as you as you write this. You're trying to write something nice. And I almost feel that about when when you're designing something you can almost you can you could feel the sun casting the shadow in this beautiful manner at this time of day. You know to be able to experience those things while you're drawing really can strengthen your design ability. The other end of of what I the other lens that I look through is just my own personal business v as a studio that provides hand-drawn renderings for folks. And the way that I am seeing AI and that is I I want it to help me on the back end of things. If I any visualizer understands how painful it used to be and still sometimes is to like get the right photo, especially if you're doing CGI work. I need the right photo of the right person at the right angle of sun, wearing the appropriate like clothing. And all of this at the right angle and and now AI tools have just really l like made that much a much more simple process. You can actually take a PNG and Photoshop and rotate the object. So you could take a person that's just slightly at the wrong angle, and Photoshop will recognize that that it is a 3D object, i.e. a human, and and rotate it. And that alone is just probably like such an invaluable tool for CGI artists. they're generating humans to like sketch over or cars, entourage elements are are it's extremely augmented by the ab abilities of AI. So those are all things like on the back end that really don't that might replace other digital tools that I was using. Like I might I might model something in SketchUp or drop a a car in SketchUp. Now I could just draw roughly the size of a car and have AI give me a car, a realistic car that I can then sketch over. So it's it's it's almost changing the workflow, but it's not changing, it's not affecting the final output. the way that it may affect things on the back end are as I mentioned before, creating a d a different season or time of day, creating a CGI render I've found that drawings are excellent input for these AI engines. They really understand the the intention of what you're drawing. If it's drawn well enough, it can almost kind of reproduce that one for one. I can sketch I can sketch a tree and it will give me a realistic tree. And or I could sketch a stick figure, though I don't draw on stick figures. I draw figures like architects always do with the head and the the like triangular body and the two the two little legs and it'll give me
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: a give me a person. all of those things are are just very valuable as a visualization artist. It's not it's not I'm not looking through this as like the design, the designer and how the designer might use AI. Though I do think that drawing paired with AI can make you a very good communicator and it can it can really sort of maybe replace what I do by drawing. and and you can you can communicate your own ideas and have AI give you some sort of what what it can do is if you are like a very below average drawer, but structurally things are intact, like your perspective is somewhat correct and your scale is correct. If you can get those things down, you can and you need to you just want to show like little corbels under a cornice. You could just scribble those in and AI will generate an image that gives you corbels because it can understand what you're trying to draw. So there's it really lowers the bar of what like of of how I would say how well or how detailed you need to draw. Whether you have that capability or not, AI could can take what you're drawing and express that in a little bit more of a refined manner. And I I don't think that a CGI or photorealistic image is always the way to present something. And AI is is okay at at g giving you sort of like a a rough sketch or a sketch that gives the impression to your audience that you are still working through this idea.
Karl: Think I think that's a key point. I don't know we've talked about this before. It it's there there's something to be said for matching the style of the drawing to the stage of the project. And you know,
JJ: Sure.
Karl: you you you can just one example is if you were consulting the public on a design, if you wanted to be doing that as you should at a fairly early stage, you know, is it it it gives the impression that it's a fatacon play, this is the design. If it already looks hyper realistic and photomontaged really well and yeah it's not. It's an early design, you know, it it's not communicating actually what stage of the project you're at and, you know, the right message to to you know your audience at at that moment in time. So and and of course it well, it might be different now, I don't know, but certainly you you didn't want to be giving the impression to clients that you're spending a lot of time producing something really detailed at a very early stage of the project. It feels like why why are you spending so long on this? I must be spending too much money on this to for for this stage of the project. So
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: you know you're you're you're really aware of of of these sort of considerations as well. So yeah but I on the other end I I've seen how you've used AI in your workflow to to bring your drawings alive and by that I mean sort of animating changes in the drawing, you know, maybe maybe not, but you know, you can obviously, as you've sort of suggested, show it at different seasons and animating that. And you're not you know, you're you're not needing to be an expert at animation, but you've done the drawings behind it to really have that flow. And I you know, I I I you know you've you've kindly sort of provided me with some some of your output so I'll I'll I'll include those as overlays in the YouTube videos as well. But yeah, everybody is is is that something that you're just doing recently or is that something, you know, you're experimenting with? What what's how's that gonna be moving forward, you think?
JJ: Yeah, I'm I'm experimenting. I don't want to be I don't want to be ignorant of of what's happening out there. And I've I've seen that this the initial kind of CGI wave that occurred in the nineties took a lot of visualization work away from watercolor illustrators that I had that I sort of still still study and and are in contact with and admire very much. So it changed their field and And they had to change or they I those guys they just made so much money because they were sort of the only way to visualize a project was by drawing it. You know, as you imagine like before the camera ever existed. You if you wanted a picture of something, you needed an artist representation
Karl: Yeah. Yeah.
JJ: of it. so d they these guys just had the market cornered on on visualization and then a whole another a whole another avenue of I don't know what the really capabilities are going forward. I'm I'm just not I'm I'm not up to speed. I'm not in the in the the think tanks that that are doing these things, but I do see occasionally almost like world building apps, right? Where where we have I have one drawing and then AI can kind of interpolate my the rest of the environment and you can move. Within it. I almost I almost go back to what what VR people were hypothesizing that this was going to be the thing. We were gonna go into a space, we're gonna put some goggles on, you're gonna feel like you're there. And it just really hasn't taken off. It's it's sort of like it's there and sometimes people use it, but it really feels unnatural. to us. And I don't think that it's the most yeah, I d I don't know. There's there's just a disconnect between VR and and reality. And I I think that the jump from a drawing, a perspective drawing, a still image, is still very easy to for people to consume and understand. And you're almost overwhelmed by the technology. And maybe that'll become more native to us. I don't know. And and we'll become more natural to it'll be like the matrix. We just jump into a new world. Who knows? But the visualization is very subject to changes in technology. And and it just that's just how it's been. I don't know, it's just because we're like we're just obsessed with this like creation of like other worlds and and Hollywood I'm sure has like a huge impact on it. so that The all these tools will trickle down into the architecture field eventually. but yeah, it's it's it's just it's just wild. So I'm going to just take the position of I'm going to be very good at drawing and communicating my drawings. I'm going to use AI to kind of extend the value of a drawing that I've done. And maybe I could switch scenes and and take someone through a project. But I understand building a narrative and and the feeling and the emotions that certain views and certain compositions can how they impact the way that people see a drawing. And you also draw for different reasons. Like you were talking about your to to to clients. Like, I'm not trying to present a CGI photo realistic image when I want to have a conversation
Karl: Yeah.
JJ: about, hey, d Do the scale of these buildings around the piazza feel right to you? Or does the size of the piazza feel okay to you? You that those the
Karl: Mm.
JJ: CGI drawing might not might get your client off on a tangent about like, yeah, I don't know, but that brick color on that building is just not what I want. And you're just saying I'm talking about the scale of the buildings around the piazza. We're not we're not there yet, my man. So
Karl: So true. Yeah, yeah.
JJ: It's just a way of helping to control the conversation as well and the discussion and have really productive conversations around specific issues.
Karl: Yeah, and I think you touched on some points there which, you know, are quite thought provoking in terms of I i think it in in terms of models. So models are there to be a representation. They're not supposed to replicate reality. It is a dumbed down version. It is to give you the level of information that you need for whatever the job that that is, for the decision maker, whether it's the person who's signing off the the design or if it's you know, the local authority who is going to approve the scheme or, you know,
JJ: Mm.
Karl: it might be a different person who you if you're trying to get somebody to invest in in the project. There's there's horses of courses. So the but the point I was going to to make there was that you can provide too much information potentially. So with VR, it's all well and good being able to explore, you know, your design however you want, but you're almost getting distracted by the fact that you can just explore the design. you know, it's not actually what for what purpose
JJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Karl: are you actually doing that? And if you've got too much information, you're you're just in danger of actually being overwhelmed and actually getting distracted from, you know, the job in hand. There's some key points that you really need to take into account to make your decision or whatever decision that might might be. And therefore, you know, two D or or three D representations as two D drawings can be actually you know, the correct way to graphically communicate what you are trying to convey to enable someone to make a decision. You know, I'm thinking, you know, i s it's not necessarily so much the design, but to illustrate why the design works, I'm thinking in landscape terms there's a lot of visual mitigation, why something isn't going to affect the wider landscape and, you know, you're you're each time you're coming up with a new way to communicate the point that needs communicating. And it's not because you just want to do something different each time, maybe, it's because you're finding the best way to convey what is the important information that ne is needed on on on
JJ: Mm-hmm.
Karl: each you know, design and and and you know decision making process. But you know, I I I was dabbling with what it was augmented reality or extended reality as they they call it now as well, with with designs. And that was quite a good tool. in that you could, you know, allow someone to quickly see out on site with a tablet or or something like that, whether
JJ: Mm-hmm.
Karl: you know, different designs may be different layouts or positions of buildings and see it in
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: relation to the sites. And some people aren't very good at reading plans. They're not very good at reading elevations or cross sections. And this, you know, enabled them to to instantly understand what Something that was thirteen metres high actually meant for them in in in the field. But it didn't really take off in the same way and I feel like it was more hardware sort of you know, restricted than than than anything else. But
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: so it might come round, who knows? It might come round again. But you don't just do it for the
JJ: Mm-hmm.
Karl: sake of it. You're there to communicate a particular aspect that needs communicating to enable someone. Get rid of all the noise. This is what you really need to see to to help
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: help you make a good decision with this design.
JJ: Yeah, you hear this you hear this saying about AI that and we're all as a culture kind of this deciding and and learning all together or not at all, the how how this thing what are what are going to be the the best practices on on how to use this? And you oftentimes hear the words like curation and editing and and things like this because there's so much available, how can I How can I be we have limited attention from our clients or even the media? Think about the newspaper article or you know, a little blurb on sho social media. You know, we have just a few images or a few seconds to like get this thing across to people. So you really have to curate down to it. And you that that initial image that people are going to see is Maybe it becomes even more valuable to like get it right. And because we can just generate thousands of images doesn't mean that they're good. Just one one or two images of the project that people see are really gonna give them their impression. It's that first impression. so it and architecture projects, especially public projects. Man, it's it's it's a real challenge to communicate those effectively to the public, not only the I hate to say rhetoric, but how you articulate the project and how it's truly gonna affect the communities paired with the the visualizations that you use. it's it's a really delicate subject. And it needs to be approached with with with with much expertise and and and deep understanding and empathy for the communities that those projects are are going to ultimately serve. So yes, there's there's there's a lot to there's a lot to unpack with AI and and how it affects us. But I do I do sort of keep keep coming back to this idea of like more media and more availability isn't necessarily improving the way we communicate because it is just those few impressions that we get to make that really have to be on point.
Karl: Yeah, I think well probably more importantly, it's not necessarily gonna improve designs, is it? If anything it it it risks actually looking like a good design because it looks like a good drawing or a good image, but yeah, that's the danger I guess.
JJ: On my on my on the lens of drawing and designers, I I have been pondering this idea of like when is it appropriate to insert AI into our workflow? And at the very beginning stage of forget about visualization, just the data download. There's a lot of of excellent work that AI can provide for us assimilating data that we can use. in the programming and the overall schematic. But there's a lot of anecdotal ev knowledge that we can glean from having conversations with community members, the firemen, the the local business owners. Like that that information also is just you know, you you could have all the root hard data in the world and you can and you can miss you c And that that data is only representative of of what's already existing. Right? It's just it's sort of like the the home values. We only can tell you what what a comparable is if there's another comparable. We can't tell you what the comparable is if you build something different or new. So so this this idea of of of of having these conversations. paired with the hard data is is I think is a very strong way to start to think about a project. And then I think you just put the AI down for a little while, even as much as you can, your your the capabilities with just with the computer. Just sit with it. Sit with your your sketchpad and your pencil. Let your mind. Let your mind just Do the work that it has done in the past and and let it let it happen. And then the AI can can enter the scene once you've sort of done that discovery and that and that work again. And and maybe it helps you come up with a variation of this entrance or a corner or you know, a any any number of design solutions. But the the point is you you've done that work, you've sat with it, you've had the conversations. You've sketched, you see what works, what doesn't work, maybe not fully, but from a schematic level. And and that will real really just provide a good a good base and a good foundation of learning the project, learning about the project, learning about the site before you you progress. And it'll also equip you with what we talked about earlier, just kind of having that that background knowledge of the project, being able to def defend it. It's it's almost like if you're at school and you have to you're having a critique in front of your professors. It's very intimidating. And if you stood up there and you crammed it all in one night, you would sound like a a big jerk in front of your your your professors. You know, you they can s kind of see right through you, right? You you can't make it up. And and they could if you do make it up, they know right away. And then and I think our audience will will feel that naturally. And that's that that is Really sort of why I think that it's important to t to do the work as well.
Karl: That is so interesting. That that's that's great information there from from you, JJ. I'm gonna just move on very quickly now. I I'm conscious we've been we've been talking for a while, so I could talk to you for for much longer, but I've there's a couple of quick fire questions I want to throw to you. Don't need big answers, but
JJ: Yeah. Let's go.
Karl: let's see see what what comes from this. But so Just tell me one one common misconception about architectural illustration that you just want to put right. What what do you think most people get wrong about it?
JJ: architectural illustration. in general, architectural illustration that they can't do it. And that an architect can't can't learn how to draw like that. And in some ways, yes, you you can. In other ways, you don't need to. You know, there's there's a field of of professionals and art artists that are dedicated to that. But I would focus on on drawing techniques. They you can accomplish sort of quickly, yet they are beautiful that serve a real purpose in the office and don't blow up your hourly budget for for the work. So there are different techniques that you can learn to introduce drawing back into your workflow.
Karl: Yeah, yeah, I understand it. So, another one, what what is one habit or practice that has contributed most to your professional success?
JJ: I think having a a list of artists, go to artists, books that you hark it back to if you were just if you're just in in the the mode of visualizing, there are infinite ways of of capturing or abstracting a re represent representing architecture and it always is not through perspective, but sometim sometimes through elevation drawings, section drawings, the 2D. And also s sometimes you you manip manipulate perspective through you you just manipulate it. You can play with reality to to get that that visual across. So there's just just build your visual library of of different artists and different techniques, different compositions that you notice. And the more that you study and just look at imagery the more your mind will be able to to kind of like relate your subject back to how another artist handled that that particular design solution.
Karl: so final question and I ask all my guests this. what is your one must read book that you highly recommend that I and our audience read? Might be something related today, but doesn't have to be. just something that's really made a big difference to your life and you think it might do to others as well.
JJ: Well, I'll give you two books to address both lenses that I have been t seeing this this these the the interview through.
Karl: Yep.
JJ: one would be The Nature of Design by Scott Lockhard. I have it right here. The Nature of Design And
Karl: Okay.
JJ: he just addresses the importance of drawing and how it how it affects design and communication. And if you are if you are trying to if you are interested in becoming a very good and learning about drawing, I would suggest the any of the Guptail books. Arthur Guptil, it's architectural what is it in architectural rendering in pen and ink, architectural rendering and pencil, architectural rendering and watercolor. Those three books have been sort of like my guiding light. And and it's just my first instinct to reach for a book or my digital catalog of like favorite artists. if you are trying to master any of the digital tools, I'm gonna give a shout out to Henry Gao. he is an excellent resource for anything, any of the digital drawing tools like Morfolio Trace that architects tend to use. Procreate and how architects might use Procreate has a nice workflow for for those sorts of things. So yeah, there's there's a lot of resources out there. You know, if you're going if you're going to how to draw and and paint, I would go old school because there's just tons of great examples. If you need technology, go to YouTube. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you to go to go with you know, for the traditional media. You want to go to traditional resources.
Karl: Yeah. That sounds good. That sounds good. So JJ,
JJ: Ha ha
Karl: thank you so much for sharing your experience, insights and perspective today. I've really enjoy exploring the the these strong foundations and creative thinking and technology, all working together rather than competing against each other and I'm sure our audience will
JJ: Yeah.
Karl: appreciate that too. So it's been a real pleasure having you on the podcast. So thank you very much for joining me, JJ.
JJ: Thanks for the conversation, Karl.
Karl: Appreciate it. And and for our audience, if you enjoyed this episode too, please follow Aligned Minds AI on LinkedIn for practical AI tips and updates on future episodes of Aligned on AI. I will share details of today's podcast and and JJ's details and some of his work as well on on LinkedIn and YouTube. And the the podcast will be available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts too. So please do give me a follow on LinkedIn. and subscribe on your favourite podcast channel.