WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:08.240
We are using our medical background to focus on the strange, baffling, and downright unsettling world of medical mysteries.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:16.960
We're gonna dig into unusual cases, diagnostic puzzles, unexplained symptoms, and medical misadventures.
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:25.359
Our first three seasons covered a little bit of everything, including crime, conspiracy, mystery, and the occasional rabbit hole we probably shouldn't have gone down.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:32.880
Those episodes aren't going anywhere, so the archives remain open for anyone who likes their mysteries, a little more broad spectrum.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.840
But from season four on, the prescription is different.
00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:38.719
More medicine, more mysteries, more questions.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.079
So grab a drink, hit the follow, and tune in every Tuesday for a new episode.
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:05.040
Hey!
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.439
Hiya! How's it going?
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:08.560
We're back.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:09.840
We're back.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:11.680
Back with some changes.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:14.319
Season four has got a new face to it.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.120
A little facelift, a little update, a little change.
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.879
What's the change?
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:27.200
A lot of people really enjoy our conspiracy episodes, mystery episodes where we got into like the medical side of things.
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.159
And so we made the decision to kind of barrow in.
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:38.640
We're gonna just do medical mysteries, medical phenomena, something that has a medical side to it, so that it can kind of cater to our expertise.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:45.200
And then once a month we are going to be looking at different types of medical drama, TV shows, movies.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:45.840
Yep.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:55.760
And kind of give our perspective on like what we agreed with, what we didn't agree with, what was done well, what wasn't done well, how it actually looks in real life.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:01.599
So, spoiler alerts, we'll talk a lot about like shows like House, Grey's Anatomy, The Pit.
00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.560
We're gonna we're gonna discuss a lot that was done wrong.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:06.400
But there's gonna be a couple rights.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.000
I'm really excited about our consult queen segment.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:19.360
Because I think it's gonna be really fun to also maybe bring in some of our we have a lot of friends with a with a lot of varied medical backgrounds.
00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:21.280
That's some expertise.
00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:22.319
Exactly.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.639
So yeah, we're really gonna narrow in on this and hopefully we keep the listeners we have and we gain some new ones.
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:33.840
Or as I'm going through a lot of our old episodes, as you mentioned, sort of like had this medical focus.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:40.319
So we're gonna be doing some re-releases uh on Thursdays as well of some of our kind of medical focused episodes.
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.680
So don't judge those two hard.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:50.719
And a lot of those are some of our like most liked episodes because we all have a background in medicine and all these episodes dabbled into that.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:56.240
So we were very active in the discussion because we all had a different perspective to bring.
00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.439
And we didn't have to question a lot and fact-check a lot because we already know these things.
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.680
I think this is gonna be more fun for us.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.719
It's reinvigorating me, and I hope it's fun for the listeners.
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.199
Yeah.
00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.719
So on Thursdays, we're gonna re-release old episodes that had medical focuses, medical discussions.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:21.759
So you guys may have checked us out last week when we released a very early episode, Plum Island, which is one of my favorites.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:27.199
And also one of our listener of the pod, Judy's favorites, who just bought us a cup of coffee.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.280
Judy! She bought us three cups of coffee.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.080
Thank you so much, Judy, for supporting the pod.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.280
We love Judy and her husband Chris, too.
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:37.599
They're both um big fans of the pod.
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.560
Love that.
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:39.360
Thanks, guys.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:41.360
Was Plum Island the tick one?
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:42.400
That is a good one.
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.319
Speaking of cups of coffee, is it time for our Drink Chad?
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:47.199
Drink chat.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:55.840
Since this feels like a fresh start, the start of a a new era.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:56.960
Yeah, if you will.
00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:58.479
In our medical era.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:02.879
I thought we should go back to our favorite.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:04.080
Dot Coke.
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:04.479
Yep.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.360
Roger, get some crispy DCs.
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.240
Which we know is healthy for you.
00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:17.199
Uh I would separate healthy health from not from not bad portion.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.360
Which we know does not cause cancer.
00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:20.160
There we go.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.759
So stay tuned.
00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.079
That's that's not a future re-release.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.439
If you guys could have seen Megan in our faith, my faith, let's do let's do some PI recovery.
00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.560
Diet Coke, if you're listening to this, we drink you on the reg.
00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.600
We were so happy to hear you're non-cancerous.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:37.439
It's my primary source of hydration.
00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.199
There is hydration in there.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.120
Yeah you cannot discredit that.
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:42.560
We love you, Diet Coke.
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.160
I I like it for a little burst of caffeine when I need it.
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:47.120
Mm-hmm.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.920
Just a little one of my go-to headache recoveries.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.920
Black coffee, Diet Coke, and a glass of wine if I'm not doing anything important.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:56.720
Glass of wine is your headache recovery sometimes.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.519
Or beer.
00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.879
Uh glass of wine sometimes for me too, which I know can cause it, but I think it's more the headache.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:05.199
Attention headache.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:06.879
Let's get into it.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:09.279
Disclaimer.
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:20.079
All of the thoughts and opinions shared in this podcast are a reflection of our own thoughts and beliefs and not a reflection of our employers who shall remain unnamed.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:20.639
Yeah.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.000
Okay, friends.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.279
I'm locked in.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:24.879
We have a weird one today.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:25.519
Ooh.
00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:32.160
And when we say weird, we mean people in the 1500s literally could not stop dancing.
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.560
I I I relate already.
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:34.879
Yeah.
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.360
Colleen, this one's for you.
00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:38.319
Picture this.
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:39.360
Yes.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.240
You're in Strasbourg in 1518.
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.160
You've got no electricity.
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:44.720
Okay.
00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:46.000
No TikTok.
00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:46.639
Boring.
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:47.920
No Spotify.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:48.800
Oh my God.
00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.879
And frankly, your options for entertainment are pretty limited.
00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.920
And then one day a woman walks out into the street and just starts dancing.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:05:58.319
Oh.
00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.720
And she just keeps dancing.
00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:02.160
She got ants in her pants.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:03.759
It was a woman who started it.
00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:07.600
I'm immediately thinking they're gonna call call like she's a witch.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:08.319
Well.
00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.199
A witch.
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:09.600
Okay.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.160
Like you're probably thinking, Barbara's having a moment.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:13.759
We'll just let her work it out, right?
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:14.160
No.
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.519
Except that Barbara does not work it out.
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:18.879
She dances it out.
00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:22.879
And then somebody else.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:30.879
And suddenly you have dozens, nay, hundreds, of people dancing uncontrollably through the streets.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:31.519
Well.
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.839
Some accounts say people dance for days, collapsing from exhaustion.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.079
There are even reports of deaths.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:47.839
So today we're going to put on our extremely questionable medieval detective hats and try to figure out what the hell happened during the dancing plague of 1518.
00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:54.000
So, guys, I'm gonna kind of tell you the story here, and then we're gonna get into a medical discussion at the end, okay?
00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:54.959
Yeah, okay.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:17.279
According to the legend, uh in Strasbourg in July 1518, which is now part of France, but at the time was part of the Holy Roman Empire, according to the legend, a woman named Frau Trofea stepped into the cobblestone streets on July 14th and just started to dance without any musical accompaniment.
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.800
Her husband begged her to come in for hours, but she refused.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:27.680
She danced and danced until she collapsed with exhaustion, then she would rest before resuming the frenzied activity.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.240
This continued for nearly a week.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.519
Authorities sent her thirty miles by wagon to Severn to be cured at the shrine of Saint Vitus, a saint they believed had cursed her.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.240
Let me pause for a moment and tell you about Saint Vitus.
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:49.759
He was supposedly a young Christian martyr from Sicily, believed to have died around 303 AD during the persecution of Christians.
00:07:49.920 --> 00:08:00.959
According to a traditional story, he was only about twelve years old, and he was subjected to various tortures and was eventually thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil, yet miraculously he survived that particular torture.
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.000
What the hell?
00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.160
He became known for the way that he bopped around while being boiled alive.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.000
God, he probably lost all his skin.
00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:14.959
He became associated with involuntary movements and dancing, which eventually gave us the term Saint Vitus' Dance.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:17.040
Oh my god, because they burned him.
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:29.120
He's traditionally associated with protection against epilepsy, Korea, animal attacks, snake bites, lightning, oversleeping, dancers, actors, and comedians, and even dogs.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:29.839
So St.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.360
Vitus's dance is a term they use for two different phenomena.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.919
The one is this epidemic I'm talking to you about, the best known, most famous dancing epidemic, not the only one though.
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.159
And the second is Didn't Ham Korea.
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:53.200
So this is a neurologic complication of group A Streptococcus, usually occurring several weeks after strep throat and characterized by sudden involuntary jerky movements, often affecting the face, hands, and limbs.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:05.200
It is considered a manifestation of acute rheumatic fever caused by an autoimmer spots in which the antibodies mistakenly target parts of the brain involved in movement, and then most people recover completely, but these symptoms may persist for months.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:07.519
St.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:12.159
Vitus dance has been confirmed as a strep reaction to some type of strep infection.
00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:12.480
Okay.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.039
But sometimes that does not but people also talk about St.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:19.039
Vitus's dance when they talk about this dance plague.
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:19.440
Okay.
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:23.120
And while theories might be they were one and the same, we don't know that for sure.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:24.240
It kind of sounds like it.
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:25.120
Back to our story.
00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:31.279
They whisk our dancer off to the shrine of Saint Vitus in an attempt to break his curse on them because again, they're like, I think St.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:32.639
Vitus has cursed you.
00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.360
Before she could return a cured woman, dozens had begun to replicate her movements.
00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:38.000
Whoa.
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.759
Physicians blamed hot blood and said they needed to dance it out.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.000
So the community arranged for like dance halls to be built.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.960
Oh my god.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.399
Brought in musicians to accompany the dancing and professional dancers to help the afflicted continue dancing.
00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:54.720
Hot blood makes me think were they feverish?
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.399
There was no evidence of that.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.360
This is a quote from somebody's record of this.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:07.679
Carpenters and tanners were ordered to transform their guild halls into temporary dance floors and set up platforms in the horse market and in the grain market in full view of the public.
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:19.919
So to keep these patients, these dancers in motion and to exploit their recovery, dozens of musicians were paid to play drums, fiddles, pipes, and horns, with healthy dancers brought in for further encouragement.
00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.080
The authorities hope to create optimal conditions for the dance to exhaust itself.
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.320
The problem with this is it actually led to an increase.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:29.519
Yeah, it's in the world.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:30.960
That was one big party, right?
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.879
This is the opposite of COVID era.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.399
Let's all just get together and have a dance.
00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.360
I'm thinking respiratory infection spread through air.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.000
But how vastly did it spread?
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:49.440
We went from one to dozens and then dozens to four hundred within one month.
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:50.559
Okay.
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:57.200
And these dancers were collapsing from sheer exhaustion, with some even dying from strokes and heart attacks.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.159
Then the council, who had come up with this whole plan, was like, bad idea.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:03.200
Dance at home.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.200
No, we are now going to ban dancing.
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:08.000
Oh god.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.240
Which feels very footloose.
00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:11.919
I feel like I saw this in a movie.
00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:23.919
They said, quote, if honorable persons wish to dance at weddings or celebrations of first mass in their house, they may do so using stringed instruments, but they're on their conscience not to use tambourines and drums.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.919
So obviously they thought the drums were like setting off the dancing plague.
00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:28.720
The beat.
00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:34.559
What I want to know is like, what was the personality during the dancing?
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:35.679
Were they joyful?
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.120
Were they like, I'm so exhausted, but I can't stop.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:40.399
I'm were they flipping.
00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:41.759
Yeah, were they miserable?
00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.000
Yeah, like what is the what was their countenance?
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.039
They were talking, screaming, and praying.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.480
In the meantime, Frau Trophea.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:53.919
Let's just call her trofe.
00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:54.559
Okay.
00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.440
She comes back and she is cured.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.320
From the she went to the shrine of St.
00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:00.960
Vitus.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.320
And so now that they're like, well, dancing it out didn't cure them of the hot blood.
00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:12.799
So maybe we need maybe they really are all cursed, and we need to send all these sufferers to the shrine to be cured.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.240
So they would send them on again on this 30-mile trek.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.919
They gave them small crosses, they gave them red shoes to wear.
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.440
Um, eventually this worked, and the people were cured.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:28.559
This plague lasted nearly two months and at its peak was killing 15 people per day.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:29.279
Whoa.
00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.080
And this is not the only place this happened.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:38.799
Smaller scale episodes took place in Switzerland, Germany, and Holland, but this episode was the deadliest and the most well documented.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.639
And like I said, we have like notes from it.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:50.559
So someone recorded many hundreds in Strasbourg began to dance and hop women and men in the public market in alleys and streets, day and night, and many of them ate nothing until at last the sickness left them.
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:51.919
This affliction was called St.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:53.120
Vitus's Dance.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:58.399
Another recording from not long after this happened said that there occurred among men a remarkable and terrible disease called St.
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:05.519
Vitus' Dance, in which men and their madness began to dance day and night until they finally fell down unconscious and succumbed to death.
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.720
So I want to hear about the people who lived.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.440
I want to know how long were they dancing for for the ones that did live?
00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.919
Like when did they start showing signs of relief?
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.720
I want to know And what was related to that?
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.720
I want to know was there any relapse at any point?
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:32.240
Did and come back, and was it like an environmental thing where they left and because they weren't exposed to that environmental trigger?
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:33.360
Yeah.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:38.480
Like could it be like a chemical, like mercury poisoning or something like that in the environment?
00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.120
Right, like in like some sort of mineral in the water.
00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.559
Or like an aerotoxin and the dirt, the soil.
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:45.120
I don't know.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.519
You bring up an interesting point, both of you.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:48.559
Kids and adults.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:55.519
Because if we think about, if we think about, I told you this is not this was the largest and most famous outbreak, but not the only one.
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:55.919
Right.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.679
And so if we look at where, if we map them, where did they occur?
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:11.120
They all occurred somewhere along the Rhine and Moselle rivers, areas linked by water, but they had different climates and different crops that they ate, like that they grew.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:17.120
So trying to figure out like what is the connection, all they could really find is that they're they are on this.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.080
But what was there a trade route through this?
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:21.200
Good question.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:21.759
Good question.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.440
That they were I'm sure there was.
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:28.879
That yeah, that they were like, I don't know, some sort of good was being passed.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.879
But also, were they drinking that water?
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.559
Is that their source of drinking water, that river?
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.440
We don't know.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.279
Yeah, these are good ones.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.720
I just again want to go back to what did they what did they look like?
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.559
Was it like they were dancing and like it was like a a complete personality change?
00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.120
Yeah.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.159
Like they're dancing and they're like, I don't know why my legs won't stop.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.399
Like And were there any other symptoms building up before the dancing?
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:10.000
It does not sound as though there were any preceding symptoms because the story is that they just walked out and started dancing, like walked out, and her husband was like, Enough, come on in.
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.720
And she was like, I'm dancing.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:21.039
I'm with you though, Kate, because I was like, are they like having like spastic movements that were like, oh, it's dancing, or are they boogieing?
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.000
I have like I would like more specifics as well.
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:32.879
And I want to know, like, were the dancing movements similar at all to anyone else's movement?
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:33.600
Yeah.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.399
They present the same way, I guess.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.440
That's a good point.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.080
So you really want your you want your old carts.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.759
You want to know about what it came on, what the procedure associated symptoms were.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.879
When did it like nothing relieved or exacerbated it that we know of?
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:52.799
What did the people who survived do differently?
00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:54.320
And what's our demographic?
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.759
Is there a certain age?
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.200
Okay, well let me ask you this before I give you the theories.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:15:59.840
Mm-hmm.
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.320
What are your what are your differentials here?
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:12.000
Um, I think we said like neurotoxin, something in the drinking water or in their food or in the minerals.
00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:13.600
Could be respiratory spread.
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.039
It could be respiratory spread.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:34.559
Yeah, I'm thinking either neurotoxin or some sort of infectious like a neurotoxin from contaminated water, food, something they're ingesting in their environment some sort of infectious cause that's attacking spinal cord where your risk stems from.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.679
Yeah, is this a type of meningitis situation?
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.679
But again, we the only symptom that we have that we know of is quote dancing.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.159
We have no idea what the symptom looks like.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.200
Again, I I just wish we had more understanding of the symptomology.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.279
So this happened today.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.039
600 years later.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:55.360
Uh huh.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:03.919
Other than doing a much better old parts review of system and physical exam, is there any kind of diagnostics we we would be getting?
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.680
We can't I think immediately you're getting a CBC BMP.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:09.200
Let's look at these electrolytes.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:10.799
Are are lights off?
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.519
Or are they having like a white count?
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.480
Are they showing blood work reflective of infection?
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:25.839
But I tell you that they they've gotta have if they're all dying, they've gotta be dying of like rhabdo, dehydration, kidney injuries.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.319
Yes.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:27.839
So you know they're electrolytes.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:29.039
Blood sugar whack.
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:30.319
Blood sugar.
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.400
Everyone knows the first thing you do is check a blood sugar.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:32.799
Yeah.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.640
I think you do an LP, see if there's anything in the CSF.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.400
Would we even be able to if they're non-stop flexing and moving?
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.240
Or you can sedate them.
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:42.960
Well, yeah.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.480
Well, but do their twitching stop completely if they're sedated?
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.079
You would paralyze it.
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.039
Yeah, okay.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.920
So paralytic.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:18:06.000
Or you but also if it is some sort of like like seizures like propofol, we're gonna get we're gonna check our blood count to look for kind of any kind of infection, and then check our electrolytes and our kidney function, and we're gonna get a lumbar puncture to look if there's any infection in our spinal fluid.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.079
Yeah, can you jump straight to an LP or do you have to do imaging at all first?
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.119
I would get an MRI.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:14.640
Is that an MRI here?
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.960
I I think an MRI is good, but I think you gotta paralyze them to do an MRI.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.559
I don't think that the dancing patient is gonna get an MRI.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.319
Yeah, they're not going into the tube.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.039
Yeah.
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.359
Uh I guess you could get a CT, but what's that really gonna show?
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.480
Well, it may it tells you that they're not gonna hurt the NLP.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.319
Yeah, and then you can get an MRI.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.920
I think we need an EEG, and we definitely need like a toxicology screen.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:39.759
Oh yeah, tox screen for sure.
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.079
So maybe in 2026 we could solve this mystery.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.920
But oh, you think they were all gonna next?
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.119
These 1500s, like the they're all on Molly.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:50.079
Oh.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.240
But I mean, I'm talking about toxicology, like I'm looking like chemical exposure.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:01.119
I know, but like what if what if they was maybe maybe they all grew some shrooms in general?
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.839
Maybe we could have had some success diagnosing this.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.440
Still would have been a diagnostic challenge, but maybe we could have figured it out.
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:15.039
Unfortunately, we have none of that information that we just sell it remains a mystery.
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.920
So they prayed the gay away, you know.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.960
Let me tell you about the leading theories.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:21.359
Okay.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.319
The first one, like a mass hysteria or a mass psychogenic illness.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.759
Do we have actual documented mass psych illnesses like this?
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:32.319
Yes.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.200
Okay.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:57.839
So mass psychogenic illness or mass hysteria is not not in the DSM 5, but in general, the medical literature describes it as the rapid spread of similar physical symptoms through a cohesive group in the absence of an identifiable infectious, toxic, or other organic cause, often in association with shared beliefs, anxiety, or a triggering event.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:06.640
So again, this is a constellation of symptoms that suggest an organic illness, but lack any kind of identifiable cause.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.200
So, yes, it's a diagnosis of exclusion.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:10.400
You have to rule everything else out.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:10.640
Right.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.480
And well, they weren't really able to rule anything out here in the 1500s.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:26.079
The World Health Organization similar describes it as a rapid spread of medically unexplained signs and symptoms within a group or setting, with affected people interpreting these symptoms as evidence of a serious physical illness.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.000
So again, this these symptoms are not fake.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:32.240
The patients are not making them up.
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:38.559
They are truly experiencing these symptoms, but they are a physical manifestation of something psychological.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.480
Do you have to have a triggering event to make that diagnosis?
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.319
To call it her hysteria.
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:47.839
Okay.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.640
Is there any historical event in that era?
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:51.920
That is such a good question.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.519
There was a lot of stressors happening.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.440
Again, this is the most accepted theory.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:56.720
This is what most people believe.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:11.279
But in order to say there was not an organic cause identified and that this is maybe a psychogenic illness, we really would have to rule out an infectious cause, toxic exposures, environmental causes, metabolic abnormalities, neurologic disease, medication effects, and other medical explanations.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.160
All the things you pointed out, which unfortunately we can't do.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.359
But most people believe that this is a hysteria.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:17.759
Yes.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:18.079
Okay.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.119
But I part of that though is because they were like, like one person was like, she went out and danced, and her husband was like, come inside and she didn't come inside.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.640
And she just wanted to embarrass him.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.519
Like, really?
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.960
I think because it was a lot of female, they were just like these crazy women.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.000
Oh man, that's awesome.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.400
They all need to go be put in a tent, right, Kate?
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.880
Oh, I really wish there was still period tents.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.240
That sounds lovely.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.680
This is so the no one got this thing for three days.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:50.960
So the basic idea is that extreme psychological and social stress produced genuine involuntary symptoms in susceptible people, and then those symptoms spread through the community.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.759
And at this time, Strasbourg had been dealing with famine, disease, disease, specifically smallpox and syphilis are what.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:30.400
were rampant at the time of this hey I wonder if there's a syphilis uh component specifically in females but they better make sense they didn't get and it was very rapid like syphilis usually takes takes a while yeah famine disease there was a lot of poverty there's a lot of social upheaval and there was intense religious anxiety and then they said on top of that historians feel like there people already had this cultural framework for what was happening because there was already this widespread belief that Saint Vitus could curse people with uncontrollable dancing.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:42.480
So in theory the stress created the vulnerability and then this cultural belief provided the form the illness took and then as you see other people affected it kind of perpetuates the outbreak.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.160
Oh okay so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.039
Exactly.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:55.359
Yeah okay well that's one theory I just wish we we had more to prove the other things weren't possible.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.880
This is a cliffhanger because we're never going to be able to say no to those.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:07.359
If you believe this theory this kind of gets into our third our throwback Thursday episode that's coming up this week which is about fully ado.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.000
Oh yeah.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:17.680
Remember we talked about the Eric subtraction and they had this shared psychosis and this idea is that two people who are really close can end up sharing the same delusional beliefs.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.039
One person may essentially reinforce what the other person is thinking until they're both operating that same reality.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:32.400
The difference is that that fully ado is like two people right a very small group and this mass hysteria mass psychogenic illness like hundreds is in a much larger group.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:38.079
So that's the that's the most believed theory okay what do you guys think about that?
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.000
It's again it feels like they're working with what they got.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:25:05.200
What we know based on like the evidence or what was documented sure that checks every box but we also can't uh we can't check off infections yeah the second is ergot poisoning so ergot is a fungus that can grow on grain such as rye and produces compounds similar to LSD oh capable of causing hallucinations spasms and other neurological symptoms hold on and this is also a theory that the Salem witch trials yeah had I was like ring a ding ding this sound is a cause hold on who said neurotoxin along a trade route you think they're trading bread yes grain yes a hundred percent especially you said they they live in different yeah environments one of these environments 100% yeah so the exposure to ergot is called say Anthony's fire it involves twitching jerking and hallucinations and it's also causes burning pain spasms hallucinations seizures here's the problem with this the other thing it causes is gangrene from severe blood vessel constriction these people just dropped there wasn't any these people were not like usually right if all of a sudden your blood vessels constrict you don't get blood flow to your hands and your feet right your hands and feet are gonna fall but these people were like not losing hands and feet.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:06.960
They were but they were dying fast.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.880
They had all these symptoms except the gangrene and constriction.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:17.599
Well with ergot poisoning how quickly does the gangrene occur?
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.119
Like what's the timeline?
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:24.400
Because these people have just been so poisoned that they died too quickly for the ischemic changes.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:45.839
That's true yeah you're right yeah you're right never mind and does it is it seen in every case of ergot poisoning is it related to how much you're exposed to we ask great questions it doesn't look like there's really good rates of how many people but it sounds like that's sort of like the textbook symptom gangrene like this vasoconstriction.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:26:02.559
So I think if not for that this would be a very if they're dancing so much that they're not eating and they're dying of like dehydration starvation exhaustion they're pumping their blood then I feel like it should wear off right like those should shift and then they should be over it.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.440
I'm also thinking like are they producing urine and poop?
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:10.960
Because what if they're burning it but not actually producing waste well that goes into like were they in renal failure.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:33.599
Yeah I was like were their kidneys dead yeah I mean I'm thinking about an LSD trip it's is like twelve hours maybe right I guess if if they're like LSD'd out they dance for 12 hours they get exhausted they sit down they have a piece of bread and then they trip again maybe but it just seems like you would have it wouldn't be like six weeks straight of dancing dancing.
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.839
You would dance and eat at the same time as someone who's done it.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:59.680
Oh trust me I have pocket bread and I dance finger foods this is also people who are in like manic episodes like how do you help people who are manic who can't sit still you have to feed them finger foods right because we're not gonna just sit down and eat a full meal with a fork or knife but give them a chicken finger they can eat that and dance.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:01.359
You know what I mean?
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:09.119
Yeah it's like a thing okay another possibility is that at least some of the dancing was connected to religious belief or ritual.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:17.119
Oh like may have believed they were cursed possessed or required to dance as part of a religious experience or attempt at healing.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:42.160
So if people again if these people thought that they had to dance to like heal it doesn't necessarily mean they were pretending the behavior again could have been like embedded in the cultural religious expectations and so maybe it was a mix of like that psychogenic illness and this culturally scripted behavior where they believed they had to dance to my only argument for that is like these people were dancing till they died.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:47.759
I don't think anybody has like the the will to dance like I think they would just faint.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.519
I don't think they would I'm gonna say I don't think they would dance themselves into rhabdo.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:57.680
I think in the 1500s people were a little tougher than our generations.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.200
I mean now people can't tolerate any discomfort.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.079
No but what I'm saying is like I think they would just end up fainting.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.599
I don't think they would die.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.480
I think that there would be periods of rest as well.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.400
Yeah I feel like it would be like let's dance and pray periods of rest will be progen.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.160
And then finally it could have been a neurologic or infectious disease.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:18.640
Yeah.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:32.720
So this could be something like epilepsy or chorea encephalitis uh which is like an inflammation of the brain but the problem is I would say that none of these really explain the phenomenon like so what everyone just had epilepsy right?
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.240
Yeah it makes no sense that those are not generally like transmissible.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:42.400
That's I think Kate's theory with something being transported down the river goods through trait.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:29:02.960
I think too with these neurologic conditions like again epilepsy doesn't really just like come and then go without any real like treatment right encephalitis doesn't usually there's preemptive get better without you know immunosuppression or antibiotic also none of them go like from like nothing to dancing.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.000
Again or as I mentioned this could have been a combination of factors.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:24.559
So it could have been kind of an interaction of the challenges they face this like mass psychogenic illness the kind of accepted cultural behavior and kind of religious you know views at that time and they all just kind of came together into this perfect storm at the exact wrong time and and that's what happened.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:36.079
I want to know more yeah I have questions and I want to go back to the the ergot you said it it was was it all peripheral vasculatus or was it like major blood vessels?
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:36.559
I don't know.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.039
I guess it would be worse if it was major blood vessels.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:46.559
Well well some of them did yeah you said like had heart attacks and strip maybe there's other funguses that cause these things though.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:30:05.599
Do you think that like the neurosymptoms of like spasic movements and like quote dancing that sort of like offset like a vasculitis type like to because you your body is like put trying to give blood to your muscles.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:13.200
And flowing from that could they have been twitching and dancing because they were in pain you know what I mean like trying to shake it into their footers.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:24.960
They were shaking their hand out for you have no idea what they were doing Megan okay I'm just trying to picture their hand hurt so bad I'm just thinking ooh my finger my toes hurt my toe or like my toes feel numb.
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:26.559
Let me shake it shake that thing.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:40.000
I just I just wish what was beside I yes I know I keep coming back to like there has to be more than just dancing and there was a lot of talk about their feet being shredded and bleeding and they were screaming about the pain in their feet.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:50.480
Okay so gangrenous but I don't think it's gangrenous as much as like blistering because you've been dancing for or they have such arterial pain that they're trying to shake the blood back into it.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:55.119
Yeah you know when people are in that much pain they don't sit still that's true.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.920
Like I'm thinking sickle cell they're twitchy because they're every part of them hurts.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:15.359
Arterial plane they're moving because it hurts but I guess I'm constantly rubbing this person in a bed and I don't but I feel like I've I've seen that but I don't know if that equates to dancing but also you don't know that they were for sure dancing.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:23.440
They were also reciting Christian deities praying frantically and speaking in tongues and they were unable to hold a normal sane conversation.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:31.279
They were crying out like help me to stop because that was the only way they knew how to get help that could be a reason.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:37.359
I don't think it necessarily points to you know mania.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:48.079
I think it's ergant yeah I don't I don't discredit I I'm definitely still leaning more towards infectious or neurotoxic along a trade route.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:32:02.960
You're welcome I'm just thinking okay infection it would have to be what viral yeah they didn't get treated with any antibiotic or antifungal or just infectious it would have to be people with strong immune systems survived.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.920
That's true.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.000
It's funny that they called it the hot blood always the hot blood.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.359
I guess I just think about we always treat neuroinfections like encephalitis.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:36.720
It's always either like turn down the immune system right like immunosuppressants or it's like there's an infection you got to treat the infection a cycloder antiviral uh you know antibiotics for for bacterial antifungal if we think it's a fungal but they didn't have those things I I just don't think of any patient yeah but they got better is what I'm saying.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:49.759
Because though it's Darwinism those that could survive survived you could have bacteria in your brain and you don't need antibiotics and you could like beat it on your own that feels inaccurate.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:15.119
How do you think we still have people after the plague they weren't giving medicine to the people in the plague but they were giving antibiotics then and people still survived smallpox people still survived I'm just saying we have evidence of people surviving without modern day treatment so yeah I agree with Colleen how else do you think the human race survived we would not be here today if people weren't Darwinism with stronger immune systems.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:33.359
Also we don't but they could have been eaten moldy bread they could have been self-medicating with without knowing you know what I mean they could have had natural penicillin without even knowing that's right too and I guess the bugs have all gotten stronger right because they didn't have and they didn't have penicillin so we didn't have resistant organisms.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:43.039
And there's probably people who might have gotten infected but not to that severity so before dancing and beat the lesser infection so then didn't get re-exposed.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.759
You know what I mean?
00:33:43.839 --> 00:34:05.279
Like you don't know you haven't given your opinion well because I don't know I guess I really was on the ergot and then I was like that there's no vasoconstriction and everyone is like that is like the textbook symptom and there's no story like these people were dancing and then they and then their legs fell off right yeah it doesn't talk about but we can that also doesn't mean it didn't happen.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:24.480
I feel like that would make the story though I think if they were writing a story if people are recording like I saw these people dancing what are the they also would have written fingers and toes were falling are the sources religious people though because if they wanted you to believe it was religious causing this they're not gonna write everything down.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.400
Can you trust your narrator?
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:27.760
Oh that's a good point.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:35.119
And I also think there's something to be said about like the only people that were probably writing anything down were men.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.000
Yeah.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.480
So I don't think you can trust everything when we're talking about historical events like this.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.440
No I I agree but I I guess I'm just thinking that like a first hand account.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.199
Well they're gonna think that's gross to talk about so I'm not gonna write that down.
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.199
There's an argument for that there is no I I I agree.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.360
I think it's very not likely.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:03.360
I think you we're I'm sure they probably weren't losing fingers and toes but there's an argument we can't completely say no to that.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:13.920
I mean bleeding feet Megan I mean they did write about the bleeding feet yeah that's but bleeding feet is not the same as vasoconstriction with black toes.
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:18.719
You don't go from zero to black toes there's an im there's a middle ground there.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.079
Yeah I I guess I'm just what you're thinking like early when it's just looking like bruised or you develop an ulcer before it dies off.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:33.519
I'm really just trying to think about all the vasopressor injuries I've seen and I feel like they start purpling like like a bruise.
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:45.840
So maybe maybe it was a mass psychogenic illness I guess I maybe mint I it sounds like Megan is not on board with ergot but Colleen and I are on board with ergot yeah I think fungal I think fungal had a part to play.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.400
Okay.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.880
Or something that was passed down the trade route.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.199
Yeah neurotoxin down the trade route that's my final answer.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:05.679
Okay yeah and Megan doesn't like to theorize about anything so no Megan can't handle no hard well if I had a if I had a strong feeling then this wouldn't be a mystery would it?
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:16.719
No well yeah but that's what we're doing we're trying to solve mysteries and that's solved in my brain erg okay all right well I might go so I might go psychogenic illness.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.840
Okay all right she sounds uncon she just like I have to choose an answer.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.599
She's upset that we had good points.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:36.960
I think that's gonna be most likely of the options we've talked about if you give me if you say our top two are most likely are I would say erg and and psychogenic that I think I would have to say of those two I was psychogenic.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:38.719
Okay.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.400
So you just like everybody got stressed and started dancing.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:47.679
Of all the things I feel like you are more black and white than that.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:37:02.960
Well I don't know now you're shaming me I just feel like you're always like there's gotta be a different answer than that but you know I mean we believed fully a do that's true but that was different.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:27.039
That was different fully ado came off different but regardless I think this was a lot a fun discussion okay I'm sorry I can't but you know what it sounds like if we just go by decorum here ergut wins hey who's to say that ergot hasn't developed a a new sort of symptomology in 500 years.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.360
That's a good point Kate that's also true.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.280
What if it's evolved on its own?
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:56.800
Yeah because of the the resistance okay okay there you go Megan um well I mean I think it's I think erg ergot no longer really it's like incredibly rare now by the way it's like okay well fungus is gonna kill us I believe that fullheartedly think we're all gonna be zombies by fungus there's not enough medication to treat fungal we're gonna just start giving people bacteria that's how you're gonna treat fungus.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:15.679
What if that what was that is like okay now we have to give people MRSA that's how it's gonna end yeah MRSA really what we thought was gonna doom us it's our safest our savior after all you guys remember when MRSA was like the thing wherever it was like oh my gosh MRSA that was before COVID.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.960
All right BC.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:25.440
Guys just a reminder don't forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at three scheme queens that's the number three scheme queens all one word.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:40.400
We're also on Reddit same username if you want to check out our website go to threschemqueens.com and you can find links to our social media accounts our BuzzSpour page all of our episodes additional content and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed.
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.800
Let us know how we're doing and what you want to hear next.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.840
There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.880
As always if you choose not to financially support us we appreciate the follows the downloads the listens the likes.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:54.239
Kate what should the people do?
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:03.280
Yeah so if you like this episode and you like this new format that we're doing I want you to pull out your phone and text three people that you think would enjoy this discussion that we had.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:21.599
And then I want you to scroll on down leave us a five star review like us on Instagram share us on your social medias interact with us on our social media platform and yeah all right thanks for listening good see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:08.240
We are using our medical background to focus on the strange, baffling, and downright unsettling world of medical mysteries.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:16.960
We're gonna dig into unusual cases, diagnostic puzzles, unexplained symptoms, and medical misadventures.
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:25.359
Our first three seasons covered a little bit of everything, including crime, conspiracy, mystery, and the occasional rabbit hole we probably shouldn't have gone down.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:32.880
Those episodes aren't going anywhere, so the archives remain open for anyone who likes their mysteries, a little more broad spectrum.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.840
But from season four on, the prescription is different.
00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:38.719
More medicine, more mysteries, more questions.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.079
So grab a drink, hit the follow, and tune in every Tuesday for a new episode.
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:05.040
Hey!
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.439
Hiya! How's it going?
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:08.560
We're back.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:09.840
We're back.
00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:11.680
Back with some changes.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:14.319
Season four has got a new face to it.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:19.120
A little facelift, a little update, a little change.
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.879
What's the change?
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:27.200
A lot of people really enjoy our conspiracy episodes, mystery episodes where we got into like the medical side of things.
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:30.159
And so we made the decision to kind of barrow in.
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:38.640
We're gonna just do medical mysteries, medical phenomena, something that has a medical side to it, so that it can kind of cater to our expertise.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:45.200
And then once a month we are going to be looking at different types of medical drama, TV shows, movies.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:45.840
Yep.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:55.760
And kind of give our perspective on like what we agreed with, what we didn't agree with, what was done well, what wasn't done well, how it actually looks in real life.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:01.599
So, spoiler alerts, we'll talk a lot about like shows like House, Grey's Anatomy, The Pit.
00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.560
We're gonna we're gonna discuss a lot that was done wrong.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:06.400
But there's gonna be a couple rights.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.000
I'm really excited about our consult queen segment.
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:19.360
Because I think it's gonna be really fun to also maybe bring in some of our we have a lot of friends with a with a lot of varied medical backgrounds.
00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:21.280
That's some expertise.
00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:22.319
Exactly.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.639
So yeah, we're really gonna narrow in on this and hopefully we keep the listeners we have and we gain some new ones.
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:33.840
Or as I'm going through a lot of our old episodes, as you mentioned, sort of like had this medical focus.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:40.319
So we're gonna be doing some re-releases uh on Thursdays as well of some of our kind of medical focused episodes.
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.680
So don't judge those two hard.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:50.719
And a lot of those are some of our like most liked episodes because we all have a background in medicine and all these episodes dabbled into that.
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:56.240
So we were very active in the discussion because we all had a different perspective to bring.
00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.439
And we didn't have to question a lot and fact-check a lot because we already know these things.
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.680
I think this is gonna be more fun for us.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.719
It's reinvigorating me, and I hope it's fun for the listeners.
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.199
Yeah.
00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.719
So on Thursdays, we're gonna re-release old episodes that had medical focuses, medical discussions.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:21.759
So you guys may have checked us out last week when we released a very early episode, Plum Island, which is one of my favorites.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:27.199
And also one of our listener of the pod, Judy's favorites, who just bought us a cup of coffee.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.280
Judy! She bought us three cups of coffee.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.080
Thank you so much, Judy, for supporting the pod.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.280
We love Judy and her husband Chris, too.
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:37.599
They're both um big fans of the pod.
00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.560
Love that.
00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:39.360
Thanks, guys.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:41.360
Was Plum Island the tick one?
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:42.400
That is a good one.
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.319
Speaking of cups of coffee, is it time for our Drink Chad?
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:47.199
Drink chat.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:55.840
Since this feels like a fresh start, the start of a a new era.
00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:56.960
Yeah, if you will.
00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:58.479
In our medical era.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:02.879
I thought we should go back to our favorite.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:04.080
Dot Coke.
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:04.479
Yep.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.360
Roger, get some crispy DCs.
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.240
Which we know is healthy for you.
00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:17.199
Uh I would separate healthy health from not from not bad portion.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.360
Which we know does not cause cancer.
00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:20.160
There we go.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.759
So stay tuned.
00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.079
That's that's not a future re-release.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.439
If you guys could have seen Megan in our faith, my faith, let's do let's do some PI recovery.
00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.560
Diet Coke, if you're listening to this, we drink you on the reg.
00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:35.600
We were so happy to hear you're non-cancerous.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:37.439
It's my primary source of hydration.
00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.199
There is hydration in there.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.120
Yeah you cannot discredit that.
00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:42.560
We love you, Diet Coke.
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.160
I I like it for a little burst of caffeine when I need it.
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:47.120
Mm-hmm.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.920
Just a little one of my go-to headache recoveries.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.920
Black coffee, Diet Coke, and a glass of wine if I'm not doing anything important.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:56.720
Glass of wine is your headache recovery sometimes.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.519
Or beer.
00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.879
Uh glass of wine sometimes for me too, which I know can cause it, but I think it's more the headache.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:05.199
Attention headache.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:06.879
Let's get into it.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:09.279
Disclaimer.
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:20.079
All of the thoughts and opinions shared in this podcast are a reflection of our own thoughts and beliefs and not a reflection of our employers who shall remain unnamed.
00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:20.639
Yeah.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.000
Okay, friends.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.279
I'm locked in.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:24.879
We have a weird one today.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:25.519
Ooh.
00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:32.160
And when we say weird, we mean people in the 1500s literally could not stop dancing.
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.560
I I I relate already.
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:34.879
Yeah.
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.360
Colleen, this one's for you.
00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:38.319
Picture this.
00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:39.360
Yes.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.240
You're in Strasbourg in 1518.
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.160
You've got no electricity.
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:44.720
Okay.
00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:46.000
No TikTok.
00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:46.639
Boring.
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:47.920
No Spotify.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:48.800
Oh my God.
00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.879
And frankly, your options for entertainment are pretty limited.
00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.920
And then one day a woman walks out into the street and just starts dancing.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:05:58.319
Oh.
00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.720
And she just keeps dancing.
00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:02.160
She got ants in her pants.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:03.759
It was a woman who started it.
00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:07.600
I'm immediately thinking they're gonna call call like she's a witch.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:08.319
Well.
00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.199
A witch.
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:09.600
Okay.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.160
Like you're probably thinking, Barbara's having a moment.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:13.759
We'll just let her work it out, right?
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:14.160
No.
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.519
Except that Barbara does not work it out.
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:18.879
She dances it out.
00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:22.879
And then somebody else.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:30.879
And suddenly you have dozens, nay, hundreds, of people dancing uncontrollably through the streets.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:31.519
Well.
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.839
Some accounts say people dance for days, collapsing from exhaustion.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.079
There are even reports of deaths.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:47.839
So today we're going to put on our extremely questionable medieval detective hats and try to figure out what the hell happened during the dancing plague of 1518.
00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:54.000
So, guys, I'm gonna kind of tell you the story here, and then we're gonna get into a medical discussion at the end, okay?
00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:54.959
Yeah, okay.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:17.279
According to the legend, uh in Strasbourg in July 1518, which is now part of France, but at the time was part of the Holy Roman Empire, according to the legend, a woman named Frau Trofea stepped into the cobblestone streets on July 14th and just started to dance without any musical accompaniment.
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.800
Her husband begged her to come in for hours, but she refused.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:27.680
She danced and danced until she collapsed with exhaustion, then she would rest before resuming the frenzied activity.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.240
This continued for nearly a week.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:39.519
Authorities sent her thirty miles by wagon to Severn to be cured at the shrine of Saint Vitus, a saint they believed had cursed her.
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.240
Let me pause for a moment and tell you about Saint Vitus.
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:49.759
He was supposedly a young Christian martyr from Sicily, believed to have died around 303 AD during the persecution of Christians.
00:07:49.920 --> 00:08:00.959
According to a traditional story, he was only about twelve years old, and he was subjected to various tortures and was eventually thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil, yet miraculously he survived that particular torture.
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.000
What the hell?
00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.160
He became known for the way that he bopped around while being boiled alive.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.000
God, he probably lost all his skin.
00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:14.959
He became associated with involuntary movements and dancing, which eventually gave us the term Saint Vitus' Dance.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:17.040
Oh my god, because they burned him.
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:29.120
He's traditionally associated with protection against epilepsy, Korea, animal attacks, snake bites, lightning, oversleeping, dancers, actors, and comedians, and even dogs.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:29.839
So St.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.360
Vitus's dance is a term they use for two different phenomena.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.919
The one is this epidemic I'm talking to you about, the best known, most famous dancing epidemic, not the only one though.
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.159
And the second is Didn't Ham Korea.
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:53.200
So this is a neurologic complication of group A Streptococcus, usually occurring several weeks after strep throat and characterized by sudden involuntary jerky movements, often affecting the face, hands, and limbs.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:05.200
It is considered a manifestation of acute rheumatic fever caused by an autoimmer spots in which the antibodies mistakenly target parts of the brain involved in movement, and then most people recover completely, but these symptoms may persist for months.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:07.519
St.
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:12.159
Vitus dance has been confirmed as a strep reaction to some type of strep infection.
00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:12.480
Okay.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.039
But sometimes that does not but people also talk about St.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:19.039
Vitus's dance when they talk about this dance plague.
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:19.440
Okay.
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:23.120
And while theories might be they were one and the same, we don't know that for sure.
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:24.240
It kind of sounds like it.
00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:25.120
Back to our story.
00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:31.279
They whisk our dancer off to the shrine of Saint Vitus in an attempt to break his curse on them because again, they're like, I think St.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:32.639
Vitus has cursed you.
00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.360
Before she could return a cured woman, dozens had begun to replicate her movements.
00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:38.000
Whoa.
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.759
Physicians blamed hot blood and said they needed to dance it out.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:46.000
So the community arranged for like dance halls to be built.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.960
Oh my god.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.399
Brought in musicians to accompany the dancing and professional dancers to help the afflicted continue dancing.
00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:54.720
Hot blood makes me think were they feverish?
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.399
There was no evidence of that.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.360
This is a quote from somebody's record of this.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:07.679
Carpenters and tanners were ordered to transform their guild halls into temporary dance floors and set up platforms in the horse market and in the grain market in full view of the public.
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:19.919
So to keep these patients, these dancers in motion and to exploit their recovery, dozens of musicians were paid to play drums, fiddles, pipes, and horns, with healthy dancers brought in for further encouragement.
00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.080
The authorities hope to create optimal conditions for the dance to exhaust itself.
00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.320
The problem with this is it actually led to an increase.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:29.519
Yeah, it's in the world.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:30.960
That was one big party, right?
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.879
This is the opposite of COVID era.
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.399
Let's all just get together and have a dance.
00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.360
I'm thinking respiratory infection spread through air.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.000
But how vastly did it spread?
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:49.440
We went from one to dozens and then dozens to four hundred within one month.
00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:50.559
Okay.
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:57.200
And these dancers were collapsing from sheer exhaustion, with some even dying from strokes and heart attacks.
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.159
Then the council, who had come up with this whole plan, was like, bad idea.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:03.200
Dance at home.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.200
No, we are now going to ban dancing.
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:08.000
Oh god.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.240
Which feels very footloose.
00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:11.919
I feel like I saw this in a movie.
00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:23.919
They said, quote, if honorable persons wish to dance at weddings or celebrations of first mass in their house, they may do so using stringed instruments, but they're on their conscience not to use tambourines and drums.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.919
So obviously they thought the drums were like setting off the dancing plague.
00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:28.720
The beat.
00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:34.559
What I want to know is like, what was the personality during the dancing?
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:35.679
Were they joyful?
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.120
Were they like, I'm so exhausted, but I can't stop.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:40.399
I'm were they flipping.
00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:41.759
Yeah, were they miserable?
00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.000
Yeah, like what is the what was their countenance?
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.039
They were talking, screaming, and praying.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.480
In the meantime, Frau Trophea.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:53.919
Let's just call her trofe.
00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:54.559
Okay.
00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.440
She comes back and she is cured.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.320
From the she went to the shrine of St.
00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:00.960
Vitus.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.320
And so now that they're like, well, dancing it out didn't cure them of the hot blood.
00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:12.799
So maybe we need maybe they really are all cursed, and we need to send all these sufferers to the shrine to be cured.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.240
So they would send them on again on this 30-mile trek.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.919
They gave them small crosses, they gave them red shoes to wear.
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.440
Um, eventually this worked, and the people were cured.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:28.559
This plague lasted nearly two months and at its peak was killing 15 people per day.
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:29.279
Whoa.
00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.080
And this is not the only place this happened.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:38.799
Smaller scale episodes took place in Switzerland, Germany, and Holland, but this episode was the deadliest and the most well documented.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.639
And like I said, we have like notes from it.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:50.559
So someone recorded many hundreds in Strasbourg began to dance and hop women and men in the public market in alleys and streets, day and night, and many of them ate nothing until at last the sickness left them.
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:51.919
This affliction was called St.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:53.120
Vitus's Dance.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:58.399
Another recording from not long after this happened said that there occurred among men a remarkable and terrible disease called St.
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:05.519
Vitus' Dance, in which men and their madness began to dance day and night until they finally fell down unconscious and succumbed to death.
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.720
So I want to hear about the people who lived.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.440
I want to know how long were they dancing for for the ones that did live?
00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.919
Like when did they start showing signs of relief?
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.720
I want to know And what was related to that?
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.720
I want to know was there any relapse at any point?
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:32.240
Did and come back, and was it like an environmental thing where they left and because they weren't exposed to that environmental trigger?
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:33.360
Yeah.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:38.480
Like could it be like a chemical, like mercury poisoning or something like that in the environment?
00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.120
Right, like in like some sort of mineral in the water.
00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.559
Or like an aerotoxin and the dirt, the soil.
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:45.120
I don't know.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.519
You bring up an interesting point, both of you.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:48.559
Kids and adults.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:55.519
Because if we think about, if we think about, I told you this is not this was the largest and most famous outbreak, but not the only one.
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:55.919
Right.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.679
And so if we look at where, if we map them, where did they occur?
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:11.120
They all occurred somewhere along the Rhine and Moselle rivers, areas linked by water, but they had different climates and different crops that they ate, like that they grew.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:17.120
So trying to figure out like what is the connection, all they could really find is that they're they are on this.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.080
But what was there a trade route through this?
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:21.200
Good question.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:21.759
Good question.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.440
That they were I'm sure there was.
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:28.879
That yeah, that they were like, I don't know, some sort of good was being passed.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.879
But also, were they drinking that water?
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.559
Is that their source of drinking water, that river?
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.440
We don't know.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.279
Yeah, these are good ones.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.720
I just again want to go back to what did they what did they look like?
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.559
Was it like they were dancing and like it was like a a complete personality change?
00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.120
Yeah.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.159
Like they're dancing and they're like, I don't know why my legs won't stop.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.399
Like And were there any other symptoms building up before the dancing?
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:10.000
It does not sound as though there were any preceding symptoms because the story is that they just walked out and started dancing, like walked out, and her husband was like, Enough, come on in.
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.720
And she was like, I'm dancing.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:21.039
I'm with you though, Kate, because I was like, are they like having like spastic movements that were like, oh, it's dancing, or are they boogieing?
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.000
I have like I would like more specifics as well.
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:32.879
And I want to know, like, were the dancing movements similar at all to anyone else's movement?
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:33.600
Yeah.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.399
They present the same way, I guess.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.440
That's a good point.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:40.080
So you really want your you want your old carts.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.759
You want to know about what it came on, what the procedure associated symptoms were.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.879
When did it like nothing relieved or exacerbated it that we know of?
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:52.799
What did the people who survived do differently?
00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:54.320
And what's our demographic?
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:55.759
Is there a certain age?
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.200
Okay, well let me ask you this before I give you the theories.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:15:59.840
Mm-hmm.
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.320
What are your what are your differentials here?
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:12.000
Um, I think we said like neurotoxin, something in the drinking water or in their food or in the minerals.
00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:13.600
Could be respiratory spread.
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.039
It could be respiratory spread.
00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:34.559
Yeah, I'm thinking either neurotoxin or some sort of infectious like a neurotoxin from contaminated water, food, something they're ingesting in their environment some sort of infectious cause that's attacking spinal cord where your risk stems from.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.679
Yeah, is this a type of meningitis situation?
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.679
But again, we the only symptom that we have that we know of is quote dancing.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.159
We have no idea what the symptom looks like.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.200
Again, I I just wish we had more understanding of the symptomology.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.279
So this happened today.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.039
600 years later.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:55.360
Uh huh.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:03.919
Other than doing a much better old parts review of system and physical exam, is there any kind of diagnostics we we would be getting?
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.680
We can't I think immediately you're getting a CBC BMP.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:09.200
Let's look at these electrolytes.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:10.799
Are are lights off?
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.519
Or are they having like a white count?
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.480
Are they showing blood work reflective of infection?
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:25.839
But I tell you that they they've gotta have if they're all dying, they've gotta be dying of like rhabdo, dehydration, kidney injuries.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:26.319
Yes.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:27.839
So you know they're electrolytes.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:29.039
Blood sugar whack.
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:30.319
Blood sugar.
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.400
Everyone knows the first thing you do is check a blood sugar.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:32.799
Yeah.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.640
I think you do an LP, see if there's anything in the CSF.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.400
Would we even be able to if they're non-stop flexing and moving?
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.240
Or you can sedate them.
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:42.960
Well, yeah.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.480
Well, but do their twitching stop completely if they're sedated?
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.079
You would paralyze it.
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:49.039
Yeah, okay.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.920
So paralytic.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:18:06.000
Or you but also if it is some sort of like like seizures like propofol, we're gonna get we're gonna check our blood count to look for kind of any kind of infection, and then check our electrolytes and our kidney function, and we're gonna get a lumbar puncture to look if there's any infection in our spinal fluid.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.079
Yeah, can you jump straight to an LP or do you have to do imaging at all first?
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.119
I would get an MRI.
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:14.640
Is that an MRI here?
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.960
I I think an MRI is good, but I think you gotta paralyze them to do an MRI.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:20.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.559
I don't think that the dancing patient is gonna get an MRI.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.319
Yeah, they're not going into the tube.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:25.039
Yeah.
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.359
Uh I guess you could get a CT, but what's that really gonna show?
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.480
Well, it may it tells you that they're not gonna hurt the NLP.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.319
Yeah, and then you can get an MRI.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.920
I think we need an EEG, and we definitely need like a toxicology screen.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:39.759
Oh yeah, tox screen for sure.
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.079
So maybe in 2026 we could solve this mystery.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.920
But oh, you think they were all gonna next?
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.119
These 1500s, like the they're all on Molly.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:50.079
Oh.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.240
But I mean, I'm talking about toxicology, like I'm looking like chemical exposure.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:01.119
I know, but like what if what if they was maybe maybe they all grew some shrooms in general?
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.839
Maybe we could have had some success diagnosing this.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.440
Still would have been a diagnostic challenge, but maybe we could have figured it out.
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:15.039
Unfortunately, we have none of that information that we just sell it remains a mystery.
00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.920
So they prayed the gay away, you know.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.960
Let me tell you about the leading theories.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:21.359
Okay.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.319
The first one, like a mass hysteria or a mass psychogenic illness.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.759
Do we have actual documented mass psych illnesses like this?
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:32.319
Yes.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.200
Okay.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:57.839
So mass psychogenic illness or mass hysteria is not not in the DSM 5, but in general, the medical literature describes it as the rapid spread of similar physical symptoms through a cohesive group in the absence of an identifiable infectious, toxic, or other organic cause, often in association with shared beliefs, anxiety, or a triggering event.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:06.640
So again, this is a constellation of symptoms that suggest an organic illness, but lack any kind of identifiable cause.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.200
So, yes, it's a diagnosis of exclusion.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:10.400
You have to rule everything else out.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:10.640
Right.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.480
And well, they weren't really able to rule anything out here in the 1500s.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:26.079
The World Health Organization similar describes it as a rapid spread of medically unexplained signs and symptoms within a group or setting, with affected people interpreting these symptoms as evidence of a serious physical illness.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.000
So again, this these symptoms are not fake.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:32.240
The patients are not making them up.
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:38.559
They are truly experiencing these symptoms, but they are a physical manifestation of something psychological.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.480
Do you have to have a triggering event to make that diagnosis?
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.319
To call it her hysteria.
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:47.839
Okay.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.640
Is there any historical event in that era?
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:51.920
That is such a good question.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.519
There was a lot of stressors happening.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:55.440
Again, this is the most accepted theory.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:56.720
This is what most people believe.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:11.279
But in order to say there was not an organic cause identified and that this is maybe a psychogenic illness, we really would have to rule out an infectious cause, toxic exposures, environmental causes, metabolic abnormalities, neurologic disease, medication effects, and other medical explanations.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.160
All the things you pointed out, which unfortunately we can't do.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.359
But most people believe that this is a hysteria.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:17.759
Yes.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:18.079
Okay.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.119
But I part of that though is because they were like, like one person was like, she went out and danced, and her husband was like, come inside and she didn't come inside.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.640
And she just wanted to embarrass him.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.519
Like, really?
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.960
I think because it was a lot of female, they were just like these crazy women.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.000
Oh man, that's awesome.
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.400
They all need to go be put in a tent, right, Kate?
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.880
Oh, I really wish there was still period tents.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.240
That sounds lovely.
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.680
This is so the no one got this thing for three days.
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:50.960
So the basic idea is that extreme psychological and social stress produced genuine involuntary symptoms in susceptible people, and then those symptoms spread through the community.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.759
And at this time, Strasbourg had been dealing with famine, disease, disease, specifically smallpox and syphilis are what.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:30.400
were rampant at the time of this hey I wonder if there's a syphilis uh component specifically in females but they better make sense they didn't get and it was very rapid like syphilis usually takes takes a while yeah famine disease there was a lot of poverty there's a lot of social upheaval and there was intense religious anxiety and then they said on top of that historians feel like there people already had this cultural framework for what was happening because there was already this widespread belief that Saint Vitus could curse people with uncontrollable dancing.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:42.480
So in theory the stress created the vulnerability and then this cultural belief provided the form the illness took and then as you see other people affected it kind of perpetuates the outbreak.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.160
Oh okay so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.039
Exactly.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:55.359
Yeah okay well that's one theory I just wish we we had more to prove the other things weren't possible.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.880
This is a cliffhanger because we're never going to be able to say no to those.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:07.359
If you believe this theory this kind of gets into our third our throwback Thursday episode that's coming up this week which is about fully ado.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.000
Oh yeah.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:17.680
Remember we talked about the Eric subtraction and they had this shared psychosis and this idea is that two people who are really close can end up sharing the same delusional beliefs.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.039
One person may essentially reinforce what the other person is thinking until they're both operating that same reality.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:32.400
The difference is that that fully ado is like two people right a very small group and this mass hysteria mass psychogenic illness like hundreds is in a much larger group.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:38.079
So that's the that's the most believed theory okay what do you guys think about that?
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.000
It's again it feels like they're working with what they got.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:25:05.200
What we know based on like the evidence or what was documented sure that checks every box but we also can't uh we can't check off infections yeah the second is ergot poisoning so ergot is a fungus that can grow on grain such as rye and produces compounds similar to LSD oh capable of causing hallucinations spasms and other neurological symptoms hold on and this is also a theory that the Salem witch trials yeah had I was like ring a ding ding this sound is a cause hold on who said neurotoxin along a trade route you think they're trading bread yes grain yes a hundred percent especially you said they they live in different yeah environments one of these environments 100% yeah so the exposure to ergot is called say Anthony's fire it involves twitching jerking and hallucinations and it's also causes burning pain spasms hallucinations seizures here's the problem with this the other thing it causes is gangrene from severe blood vessel constriction these people just dropped there wasn't any these people were not like usually right if all of a sudden your blood vessels constrict you don't get blood flow to your hands and your feet right your hands and feet are gonna fall but these people were like not losing hands and feet.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:06.960
They were but they were dying fast.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.880
They had all these symptoms except the gangrene and constriction.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:17.599
Well with ergot poisoning how quickly does the gangrene occur?
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.119
Like what's the timeline?
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:24.400
Because these people have just been so poisoned that they died too quickly for the ischemic changes.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:45.839
That's true yeah you're right yeah you're right never mind and does it is it seen in every case of ergot poisoning is it related to how much you're exposed to we ask great questions it doesn't look like there's really good rates of how many people but it sounds like that's sort of like the textbook symptom gangrene like this vasoconstriction.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:26:02.559
So I think if not for that this would be a very if they're dancing so much that they're not eating and they're dying of like dehydration starvation exhaustion they're pumping their blood then I feel like it should wear off right like those should shift and then they should be over it.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.440
I'm also thinking like are they producing urine and poop?
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:10.960
Because what if they're burning it but not actually producing waste well that goes into like were they in renal failure.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:33.599
Yeah I was like were their kidneys dead yeah I mean I'm thinking about an LSD trip it's is like twelve hours maybe right I guess if if they're like LSD'd out they dance for 12 hours they get exhausted they sit down they have a piece of bread and then they trip again maybe but it just seems like you would have it wouldn't be like six weeks straight of dancing dancing.
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.839
You would dance and eat at the same time as someone who's done it.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:59.680
Oh trust me I have pocket bread and I dance finger foods this is also people who are in like manic episodes like how do you help people who are manic who can't sit still you have to feed them finger foods right because we're not gonna just sit down and eat a full meal with a fork or knife but give them a chicken finger they can eat that and dance.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:01.359
You know what I mean?
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:09.119
Yeah it's like a thing okay another possibility is that at least some of the dancing was connected to religious belief or ritual.
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:17.119
Oh like may have believed they were cursed possessed or required to dance as part of a religious experience or attempt at healing.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:42.160
So if people again if these people thought that they had to dance to like heal it doesn't necessarily mean they were pretending the behavior again could have been like embedded in the cultural religious expectations and so maybe it was a mix of like that psychogenic illness and this culturally scripted behavior where they believed they had to dance to my only argument for that is like these people were dancing till they died.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:47.759
I don't think anybody has like the the will to dance like I think they would just faint.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.519
I don't think they would I'm gonna say I don't think they would dance themselves into rhabdo.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:57.680
I think in the 1500s people were a little tougher than our generations.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.200
I mean now people can't tolerate any discomfort.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.079
No but what I'm saying is like I think they would just end up fainting.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.599
I don't think they would die.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.480
I think that there would be periods of rest as well.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.400
Yeah I feel like it would be like let's dance and pray periods of rest will be progen.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.160
And then finally it could have been a neurologic or infectious disease.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:18.640
Yeah.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:32.720
So this could be something like epilepsy or chorea encephalitis uh which is like an inflammation of the brain but the problem is I would say that none of these really explain the phenomenon like so what everyone just had epilepsy right?
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.240
Yeah it makes no sense that those are not generally like transmissible.
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:42.400
That's I think Kate's theory with something being transported down the river goods through trait.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:29:02.960
I think too with these neurologic conditions like again epilepsy doesn't really just like come and then go without any real like treatment right encephalitis doesn't usually there's preemptive get better without you know immunosuppression or antibiotic also none of them go like from like nothing to dancing.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.000
Again or as I mentioned this could have been a combination of factors.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:24.559
So it could have been kind of an interaction of the challenges they face this like mass psychogenic illness the kind of accepted cultural behavior and kind of religious you know views at that time and they all just kind of came together into this perfect storm at the exact wrong time and and that's what happened.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:36.079
I want to know more yeah I have questions and I want to go back to the the ergot you said it it was was it all peripheral vasculatus or was it like major blood vessels?
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:36.559
I don't know.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.039
I guess it would be worse if it was major blood vessels.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:46.559
Well well some of them did yeah you said like had heart attacks and strip maybe there's other funguses that cause these things though.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:30:05.599
Do you think that like the neurosymptoms of like spasic movements and like quote dancing that sort of like offset like a vasculitis type like to because you your body is like put trying to give blood to your muscles.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:13.200
And flowing from that could they have been twitching and dancing because they were in pain you know what I mean like trying to shake it into their footers.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:24.960
They were shaking their hand out for you have no idea what they were doing Megan okay I'm just trying to picture their hand hurt so bad I'm just thinking ooh my finger my toes hurt my toe or like my toes feel numb.
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:26.559
Let me shake it shake that thing.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:40.000
I just I just wish what was beside I yes I know I keep coming back to like there has to be more than just dancing and there was a lot of talk about their feet being shredded and bleeding and they were screaming about the pain in their feet.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:50.480
Okay so gangrenous but I don't think it's gangrenous as much as like blistering because you've been dancing for or they have such arterial pain that they're trying to shake the blood back into it.
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:55.119
Yeah you know when people are in that much pain they don't sit still that's true.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:59.920
Like I'm thinking sickle cell they're twitchy because they're every part of them hurts.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:15.359
Arterial plane they're moving because it hurts but I guess I'm constantly rubbing this person in a bed and I don't but I feel like I've I've seen that but I don't know if that equates to dancing but also you don't know that they were for sure dancing.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:23.440
They were also reciting Christian deities praying frantically and speaking in tongues and they were unable to hold a normal sane conversation.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:31.279
They were crying out like help me to stop because that was the only way they knew how to get help that could be a reason.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:37.359
I don't think it necessarily points to you know mania.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:48.079
I think it's ergant yeah I don't I don't discredit I I'm definitely still leaning more towards infectious or neurotoxic along a trade route.
00:31:48.400 --> 00:32:02.960
You're welcome I'm just thinking okay infection it would have to be what viral yeah they didn't get treated with any antibiotic or antifungal or just infectious it would have to be people with strong immune systems survived.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.920
That's true.
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:08.000
It's funny that they called it the hot blood always the hot blood.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.359
I guess I just think about we always treat neuroinfections like encephalitis.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:36.720
It's always either like turn down the immune system right like immunosuppressants or it's like there's an infection you got to treat the infection a cycloder antiviral uh you know antibiotics for for bacterial antifungal if we think it's a fungal but they didn't have those things I I just don't think of any patient yeah but they got better is what I'm saying.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:49.759
Because though it's Darwinism those that could survive survived you could have bacteria in your brain and you don't need antibiotics and you could like beat it on your own that feels inaccurate.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:15.119
How do you think we still have people after the plague they weren't giving medicine to the people in the plague but they were giving antibiotics then and people still survived smallpox people still survived I'm just saying we have evidence of people surviving without modern day treatment so yeah I agree with Colleen how else do you think the human race survived we would not be here today if people weren't Darwinism with stronger immune systems.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:33.359
Also we don't but they could have been eaten moldy bread they could have been self-medicating with without knowing you know what I mean they could have had natural penicillin without even knowing that's right too and I guess the bugs have all gotten stronger right because they didn't have and they didn't have penicillin so we didn't have resistant organisms.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:43.039
And there's probably people who might have gotten infected but not to that severity so before dancing and beat the lesser infection so then didn't get re-exposed.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:43.759
You know what I mean?
00:33:43.839 --> 00:34:05.279
Like you don't know you haven't given your opinion well because I don't know I guess I really was on the ergot and then I was like that there's no vasoconstriction and everyone is like that is like the textbook symptom and there's no story like these people were dancing and then they and then their legs fell off right yeah it doesn't talk about but we can that also doesn't mean it didn't happen.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:24.480
I feel like that would make the story though I think if they were writing a story if people are recording like I saw these people dancing what are the they also would have written fingers and toes were falling are the sources religious people though because if they wanted you to believe it was religious causing this they're not gonna write everything down.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.400
Can you trust your narrator?
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:27.760
Oh that's a good point.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:35.119
And I also think there's something to be said about like the only people that were probably writing anything down were men.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.000
Yeah.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.480
So I don't think you can trust everything when we're talking about historical events like this.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:45.440
No I I agree but I I guess I'm just thinking that like a first hand account.
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.199
Well they're gonna think that's gross to talk about so I'm not gonna write that down.
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:53.199
There's an argument for that there is no I I I agree.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.360
I think it's very not likely.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:03.360
I think you we're I'm sure they probably weren't losing fingers and toes but there's an argument we can't completely say no to that.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:13.920
I mean bleeding feet Megan I mean they did write about the bleeding feet yeah that's but bleeding feet is not the same as vasoconstriction with black toes.
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:18.719
You don't go from zero to black toes there's an im there's a middle ground there.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:26.079
Yeah I I guess I'm just what you're thinking like early when it's just looking like bruised or you develop an ulcer before it dies off.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:33.519
I'm really just trying to think about all the vasopressor injuries I've seen and I feel like they start purpling like like a bruise.
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:45.840
So maybe maybe it was a mass psychogenic illness I guess I maybe mint I it sounds like Megan is not on board with ergot but Colleen and I are on board with ergot yeah I think fungal I think fungal had a part to play.
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.400
Okay.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.880
Or something that was passed down the trade route.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.199
Yeah neurotoxin down the trade route that's my final answer.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:05.679
Okay yeah and Megan doesn't like to theorize about anything so no Megan can't handle no hard well if I had a if I had a strong feeling then this wouldn't be a mystery would it?
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:16.719
No well yeah but that's what we're doing we're trying to solve mysteries and that's solved in my brain erg okay all right well I might go so I might go psychogenic illness.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:21.840
Okay all right she sounds uncon she just like I have to choose an answer.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.599
She's upset that we had good points.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:36.960
I think that's gonna be most likely of the options we've talked about if you give me if you say our top two are most likely are I would say erg and and psychogenic that I think I would have to say of those two I was psychogenic.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:38.719
Okay.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.400
So you just like everybody got stressed and started dancing.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:47.679
Of all the things I feel like you are more black and white than that.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:37:02.960
Well I don't know now you're shaming me I just feel like you're always like there's gotta be a different answer than that but you know I mean we believed fully a do that's true but that was different.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:27.039
That was different fully ado came off different but regardless I think this was a lot a fun discussion okay I'm sorry I can't but you know what it sounds like if we just go by decorum here ergut wins hey who's to say that ergot hasn't developed a a new sort of symptomology in 500 years.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.360
That's a good point Kate that's also true.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.280
What if it's evolved on its own?
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:56.800
Yeah because of the the resistance okay okay there you go Megan um well I mean I think it's I think erg ergot no longer really it's like incredibly rare now by the way it's like okay well fungus is gonna kill us I believe that fullheartedly think we're all gonna be zombies by fungus there's not enough medication to treat fungal we're gonna just start giving people bacteria that's how you're gonna treat fungus.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:15.679
What if that what was that is like okay now we have to give people MRSA that's how it's gonna end yeah MRSA really what we thought was gonna doom us it's our safest our savior after all you guys remember when MRSA was like the thing wherever it was like oh my gosh MRSA that was before COVID.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.960
All right BC.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:25.440
Guys just a reminder don't forget to check out our Facebook and Instagram pages at three scheme queens that's the number three scheme queens all one word.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:40.400
We're also on Reddit same username if you want to check out our website go to threschemqueens.com and you can find links to our social media accounts our BuzzSpour page all of our episodes additional content and our contact page where you can engage with us and share any updates on the topics that we have discussed.
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:42.800
Let us know how we're doing and what you want to hear next.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.840
There are also opportunities to financially support us with links to buy us a cup of coffee and links to our merch store.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.880
As always if you choose not to financially support us we appreciate the follows the downloads the listens the likes.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:54.239
Kate what should the people do?
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:03.280
Yeah so if you like this episode and you like this new format that we're doing I want you to pull out your phone and text three people that you think would enjoy this discussion that we had.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:21.599
And then I want you to scroll on down leave us a five star review like us on Instagram share us on your social medias interact with us on our social media platform and yeah all right thanks for listening good see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday
