WEBVTT
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One of the things that I am desperate to ask you is how you feel about modern patterns.
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Do you think we're creating now a new breed of less capable knitters?
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Yes.
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Hello and welcome to Yarn Library with me, Adam Cleveley, the podcast where I talk to fascinating people in the fiber world about knitting, creativity, community, and the stories behind the stitches.
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Pick up your needles, pour a cup of tea, settle in, and welcome to the Yarn Library.
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In this episode of Yarn Library, I'm talking to Patty Lyons.
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Patty Lyons is one of the world-renowned knitting teachers, someone who I take real inspiration from because she's all about giving knitters confidence and moving forwards and being able to progress with understanding your knitting.
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I'm kind of talking to her about at the very end of the episode about knitting ER, her new book, which is an amazing book.
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But we get to cover so many topics before we even go there, and that's what this podcast is about.
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Anyway, we got so carried away so quickly, I never even recorded an introduction properly.
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So whilst I'm editing the podcast and I'm doing my cooking at the same time, I realized that I literally have to record an intro.
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Anyway, I hope you love listening to Yarn Library.
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Thank you so much for tuning in.
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Enjoy this episode with Patty Lyons.
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I'll expand upon that.
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Um wow, it's such, it's such a tricksy topic because there have been a lot of changes in patterns that I that I 100% agree with, even though, to be honest, I I hate change.
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You know, I I'll just I just hate change.
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But so I had to like take a breath and get out of the all change is bad.
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It's very spoon-feedy, isn't it?
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Because they because now the expectation is that well, I buy a pattern and it should tell me everything about how to knit that.
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I mean, short of possibly how I hold the yarn in my hand, the pattern is expected to tell you literally everything.
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I literally saw a pattern.
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Or for some patterns it is.
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I literally saw a pattern that that didn't just say cast on.
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It said holding the needle in your right hand, drape the tail over, like describe long tail cast on.
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Wow.
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So okay, that's going a long way then.
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Yeah, that is pants of crazy.
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So I always say we've stopped knitting and we've started reading.
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And there's a lot of drawbacks to that.
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And it's not just um the fact that we don't feel empowered, which is like literally that I remember Franklin Habbott asked me.
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Um, we were stuck on the last image of Patty's knitting bag of tricks.
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We had a we had the first image, we were stuck on that last image.
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This was the first book I wrote.
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And he said, tell me, talk to me about how you want, just give me a couple sentences about how you want the knitter to feel at the by the end of the book.
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And I said, Oh, I can just say it in one word, empowered.
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And then he knew exactly what to draw because he's amazing.
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Um but not only is that like my you know soapbox, is I want knitters to feel empowered.
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But when you spoon feed everything for a pattern, there's no skill transfer.
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You know how to make that pattern, which is why I never teach a pattern class.
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Because I don't want to teach you row by row how to knit my pattern.
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I want you to have skills and then go forth, knit all the things, go, yeah.
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Um, but yeah, there's I I could like I could literally spend two hours talking about this, and you're like, oh God, please stop.
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But it's an interesting, it's an interesting problem because I think on the one hand, having more spoon feeding for knitters allows more knitters to come in and do more ambitious patterns and have the confidence to go on to do a a bigger and potentially more daunting pattern.
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But you're right about I I don't worry so much about the impact that that has on the knitter that there's a negative effect that they're not learning in the same high-quality way.
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I worry actually about the impact on the barrier to creating designs, because as you said, you're now expecting a designer not just to be a designer, but they also have to be a teacher and communicator and all those other things, you know, as well as a writer and those other things.
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Yeah, but that's what that's where my problem with it.
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I I I I worry about both ends.
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I worry about what's happened to the industry in general, and I worry about uh I mean, we we can talk about testers, that's a whole other thing.
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But I worry that I don't I I don't want people to watch and match.
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So my videos, they always take longer.
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My book takes longer to read because you can watch and match a technique, but that doesn't mean you've learned it.
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So what happens when you're just, you know, when I teach short rows, I'll say, tell me um a show of hands how many, because I teach a class that teaches like five short row methods.
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I'll say, show of hands how many people have done um the wrap and turn, and that's the most popular one.
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So most people raise their hand.
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And I say, tell me how many people do wrap and turn by doing this.
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Slip one stitch from right needle to left needle.
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It's it's the same problem.
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It's the same problem with like make one right and make one left, right?
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It's it's that everyone has to Google it and look it up each time because you're never learning how and why it leans right or left.
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You're just learning the mechanics of what you like functionally, what are the steps that I take in order to make this happen.
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And it doesn't lean.
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So that's another, that's a it's a it's a non um, it's it it has no lean.
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It's a non-directional uh increase.
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The stitch itself stands straight up and down between two other stitches.
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The only reason it's called left and right is the decorative twist of the actual yarn underneath.
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Yeah, it's a non it's a non-directional increase.
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It's not like a uh left leaning or right leaning increase.
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Um but that's that's fascinating.
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Because I'd never and I'd never understood that because because exactly because when when you create the make one left and right, you understand that.
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Oh exactly, you create a column coming out of a spot.
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That's not a that's not a um it isn't that doesn't have direction.
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As opposed to a decrease where one one stitch going on top of the other means the fabric is slanting.
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But if you the reason we use a make one, um coming, oh my god, where I'm going everywhere.
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But that you know, the this is just an example uh about what you were talking about with patterns.
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So a pattern used to say, you know, increase one stitch each side.
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Your mad skills as a knitter, what you brought to the table is what type of increase or decrease do I want to use?
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Where on the side do I want it?
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Do I want it all the way at the edge?
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And I want the the uh uh, you know, I want the fabric if I'm gonna go from a larger hip to a smaller and I want it to to sort of flare, or do I want it in dart shaping?
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So that's what I I I to I totally get what you say about the barrier to design, and that's a problem too.
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I worry about how much is lost because I loved as a new knitter experimenting, getting out a swatch and being like, well, what does this increase do?
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What does that do?
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Oh, I oh, that looks cool, you know, and that made me feel like I was a skilled person.
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I wasn't just reading and doing exactly what it said.
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I was creating something that was mine.
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So I was interested because I I read through a lot of your biography as I was researching for this podcast, and I found it fascinating your history of both coming into knitting as a as an adult and changing career from um from stage management on Broadway, but then also how you worked at a yarn shop and were solving people's problems for them, but also by having to replicate those problems and mending things that you were deliberately breaking, if you like.
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Maybe everyone wants to know how do I learn how Patty Lyons learned it.
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No, but I'm but I'm old enough to to realize I don't have to be all things to all people.
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So I have a I I actually filmed a little YouTube video years ago for Vogue of what to expect from Patty Lyons class.
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And I say at the beginning of the the video, you know, you you're looking at a schedule of shows, and there's and there's so many teachers to choose from, and there's so many different styles of teaching.
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And then there's like the deep dive, we're going in, you know, fire hose of information.
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And I I and I quote a couple of students in the video, and I say, like, I think I I quoted one student saying, like, I was I was exhausted after your class, but like in the best way.
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And then someone else said, and this is your probably you might be, I don't know if this is an American movie reference from like a really long time ago.
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But this student came up to me after class and she just it was in New York.
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So New Yorkers sound aggressive when they're really being nice.
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And she was like, You just Mr.
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Miyagi'd me.
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Which probably doesn't make any sense to you.
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It's a it's a it does.
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Okay.
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Um, so I I'm what I hope is by being who I am, that the students that want to learn the why, not the how, will be the ones that come to my class.
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If you want to just like I I remember when I did work at that yarn store, there was an Upper East Side woman came in and she wanted a yarn sub for the um log cabin blanket.
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And I sat down because she wanted to do it in a different way.
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I sat down and I was like, okay, so let's take a look at how this works.
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So we're and she's like, Why are you telling me this?
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And I said, Oh, well, you know the old expression, if you um teach a man to fish versus giving him the fish.
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And she said, Look, if you want the sale, give me the fish.
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So I was like, Oh, cool, cool, cool.
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Yeah.
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Like I got.
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I mean, the world's the world is full of people, right?
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Like it's that's everyone's different.
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So I guess, yeah, that's that's fascinating.
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But I I think that's also that's also fascinating for me about the different sorts of knitters that are out there.
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I guess going back to the question about patterns, I guess the worry is with patterns, and what you're saying is that there's a a race potentially to try and make patter suitable literally for everyone, yeah, which dilutes then the ability of a pattern to help a knitter understand and think for themselves.
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In the same way that, like, if you want to learn how to do cryptic crosswords, learn how to do cryptic crosswords and learn how to solve those puzzles.
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It is a skill that you can have if you want it.
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You have to choose if you want it.
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To me, the biggest problem is it's morphing two things.
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It's morphing a pattern, which is instructions on how to make a thing.
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And I always say it's not even instructions on how to make a thing.
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It's when it comes to a sweater, it's a few examples of how that thing might be made, which is a whole other topic about fit.
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It's morphing that with a knitting class.
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And that's what I find is a bummer is that by making, by trying to merge a knitting class and a pattern, you get a diluted version of each thing.
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Right.
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So I'll give you an example of someone that I think does it in a banger way.
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Oh, and Zandy too, I think does it in a great way.
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Laura Nelkin, um Laura's patterns are written very carefully.
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They're written as professional patterns, they're not spoon-feed.
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But then in addition to that, she does have video content on the trickier aspects.
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But first of all, she charges accordingly.
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But um, but the pattern is she has really, really hard lace patterns and she has you know entry-level patterns.
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Um I think I I use the cooking example.
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Do you I I don't cook at all, but my husband cooks.
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And he uses recipes kind of like a lot of us use knitting patterns, like a jumping off point.
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Yeah.
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And I remember having such an aha moment about knitting patterns when he was like, Oh, read me the next thing that it says there.
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And I said, uh, it says add a cup of ghee.
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And he's like, Yeah, after that.
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And I said, Well, what's ghee?
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He says, It's it's clarified butter.
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Well, what's that?
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And then he starts describing how you it first of all, it's an ingredient that needs a recipe.
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So already I'm out, right?
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Like I would be out.
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I'm out.
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Um and I said, and I get all indignant.
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I'm like, uh, but how would you know that?
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How that's what a terrible recipe.
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How would you know what ghee is?
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And and he's like, because it's not a cooking how-to book, it's a recipe.
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So, like, if you if you have a pattern, is someone like cast on, how do I know what how to cast on?
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What a terrible pattern.
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And I was like, Oh.
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Such an interesting way of thinking about it.
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And I like I'm a I'm a big cook, so in every sense.
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So I that that really rings true with me, and I really understand that.
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It's a really interesting way of thinking about it.
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Like, are you because also you you get these, you know, you can you can have a recipe where you want to cook this extremely elaborate dish, but to a professional chef, you can write some very simple, you know, make 500 grams of Pat Sucra or something, where you know that that is a whole other recipe, but every pastry chef would know how to make that instantly.
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And so, like, why is it a problem?
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Wh what did you just what were the words that you just said?
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You're so fancy.
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It was it was well, it's like shoulder shaping, isn't it?
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Now, now now what in your set in sleeps.
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I literally have no idea what the word was that you just said.
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That's how little I know about cooking.
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Oh, Pat Sucre, as in uh it's just French for a sweet pastry.
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Oh my god, you're so fancy.
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Well, there we go.
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I've I've I've cooked for longer than I've knitted, Patty.
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One thing you've already mentioned, which is that you've got thoughts on pattern testing.
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So as a relatively now you're holding your head already.
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Oh my god, I so many thoughts.
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My journey to knitting was that the first thing I knitted was I wanted a cable scarf.
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And so I researched how you made cables, and then I made a cable scarf.
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And I didn't know that patterns existed.
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And I suppose that is the most patty school of learning to knit because I looked up all the bits, worked out how to make it make sense, and and that was that.
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Was the cable hat with the giant holes was that to go with your cable scarf?
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Yes, that was the sec that that hat was then the second thing that I did.
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I'm so glad you kept it, by the way.
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I'm I'm so delighted as well.
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It's brilliant.
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When I started then thinking, do you know what?
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Patterns, it it's really interesting to be able to share these with other people.
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And when people say, I love that, how do you make it?
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What's the pattern name?
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To start doing that brought me joy.
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But then I found it fascinating, this process of pattern testing, and I've only been doing this for a couple of years, and the idea that you have to build this community of knitters around you who want to knit these things for for free, essentially.
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We don't is uh is a is a really interesting thing for me from a commercial perspective about I mean about about how people are doing things for free and because they they love what you're doing or whatever.
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But yeah, what what changes do you like has it always been the same that every pattern gets tested to death?
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No, this is a brand new concept.
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This is this is why I I I I I have so many feels on this.
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So throughout the history of time, um knitting patterns, it's pure math.
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It's pure math the way you grade them, and usually one sample is knit.
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That's it, period.
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My issue with testing is that not unlike the patterns, newer designers think that this is a standard.
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And what what we're getting is patterns written by committee.
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So, first and most importantly, testing should never replace a tech editor.
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So tech edit and and people say, oh, well, a tech editor doesn't know anything about you know whether something is confusing.
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Yes, they do, that's literally their job.
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Or a tech editor doesn't know about fit.
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Yes, it is, that's literally their job.
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So I use one tech editor who's a fit specialist when I'm doing something that I'm like, like I I I graded a sweater, um it was uh Simone, which is a bottom-up circular yoke, and and I had this idea of like, oh, it'd be so fun for a class, it could have sleeves or not sleeves, and you know, I thought I'd be able to write it as one pattern.
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The idea of like, oh, but don't you need to test every size?
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No.
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Because Natalie Warner, who's a brilliant designer, she said the most brilliant thing, which is size is not shape.
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Size is not shape.
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Yep.
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Occasionally I use preview knitters.
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I use preview knitters for uh Simone, for charade.
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Preview knitters are different than testers.
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Preview knitters are where I'm being very honest and I'm saying, here is a fully tech edited pattern.
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Tech editing is categorically a paid, like that is a paid labor thing.
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That is something you must pay for as a service.
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That's not something anyone does for free.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.559
Um, and it's just like it's a real skill.
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.599
It's it's obviously something it's it's really important to do.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:40.160
Um, I um the other thing I find fascinating about that is that where you talk about size and shape, yeah, is that of course this comes back to what you're saying about learning how you knit, and like this is where everyone's body is different, and if you know and understand your body, there might be things that you want to put into knits routinely which make a pattern fit you better than it would otherwise.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:49.119
And those, like again, should those be in every knitting pattern, or should you just understand how to knit to adjust for your particular waist shape or so on?
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.400
Well, sometimes um some patterns will come with a little cheat sheet.
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:13.119
Like I love that um Carol Feller, who is a designer that I very much admire, and when people are looking for seamless knits, I'll say Carol Feller, because what she did was she has the training and the and the fit expertise of all different constructions.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:21.519
What she did was reverse engineer a proper fit saddle shoulder, set and sleeve, you know, to be uh seamless.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:33.839
But um, she'll often have like a uh a single sheet of like these are some fit tips, or these are some easy adjustments if it's just a standalone pattern, not part of a video class.
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:44.000
Um but the reason I like teaching video sweater classes, and then the nicest thing someone said to me is, Oh, I thought this class was going to teach me how to knit this sweater.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:58.559
I didn't realize it was gonna teach me more about knitting sweaters, is I teach sweater mapping, which basically is a concept that I stole from Japanese knitting patterns, which is laying everything out in one map.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:05.920
So I you have a blank schematic and you you put the whole pattern as numbers in your map.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:11.599
Now that not only helps you understand the pattern, but then you have this map to go, oh, I'm long-wasted.
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:18.799
So okay, visually, like, oh, there where it has me work X number of rows, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change that part, I'm gonna change this part.
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.279
And it just makes you understand it so much more.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:29.119
I guess what I would say is, you know, being an old designer, who people they're like, oh, I know what a Patty Lyons pattern is.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:42.240
So, you know, I I would say definitely take Kate's advice and put out some free patterns so people have a sense of what you how you write, but also hire five different tech editors for five different patterns.
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.640
Ask them questions, learn from them.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:49.119
And when I say ask questions, I also mean like ask questions like a knitter.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.839
Like the I remember, and I remember her name, Charlotte Quiggle, amazing tech editor.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.519
And I this was a a design I think I did for some magazine, maybe creative knitting, I don't remember.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:23:33.039
had short row shaping it had re a reverse uh short tail short row shaping and she changed the way it was written and she and I I emailed her and I was like that's not what I knit and she said I know it's not what you knit you I I respect that you knit it like perfectly but you wrote it in a much more complicated less user friendly way my way of joining it makes the row makes the two sides differ by one row which visually no one will know but it's gobs easier to do I was like write things in the most inclusive way to check which is why like shoulder shaping I would still write as a stair step bind off because shoulder shaping in flat knitting is telling you how many stitches go away you as the knitter if you've got the mad skills to do a sloped bind off uh convert that to short row shaping a decreased bind off good on you but why would I bar entry to that pattern by writing shoulder shaping in the most complicated way I remember when I did um I I did some pattern and it was I think it was shoulder shaping and it was like for this size you bind off this number then this number then this number that and every size had a different number.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:45.279
And again the tech editor kicked it back and said although I respect the fact that you are being absolutely true to every size, you've now made it more complicated to read.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.400
So what that taught me when I grade is is first you have um you know you have all your true measurements.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:58.079
Well first you have you know raw measurements then you apply the gauge to it and you have true measurements.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:11.200
Then I look at the instructions and I look for the the things that can be grouped like oh the difference between that stitch count and this stitch count the human eye will never perceive okay so I'll change that one.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.559
So that they're grouped in a way that's easier to read.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:27.039
Because that's the other thing I don't think new designers think about is how more words more complicated more numbers more complicated.
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:39.359
Yeah more more more room for mistakes really totally thousand percent this episode of Yarn Library is sponsored by me, Adam Cleavely well, by Make a getaway retreats which I also run and co-host.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:46.480
They're three or four night retreats where knitters and crocheters spend proper time together learning, relaxing, focusing on their craft.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.559
We're in Cambridge this September and Edinburgh during the Christmas markets at the end of November.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:25:11.920
There are classes plenty of time to yourself and a really lovely group of crafters coming out of the things I know that we we really should talk about because you are interested in these retreats already about gauge project on gauge limited places remaining um I mean did you have any question for me about that about that about like inside track on on any data you want.
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.240
I was going to show you some swatches over here.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:40.319
First of all can I tell you how happy I was when I and this was the swatch that I was going to show you but I think it's over there somewhere um that the garter that you added was just like two stitches as opposed to you know uh what a lot of people do is like a garter border and I don't do a garter border at all.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.000
If if it's not on the if it's not on the page it's not on the stage.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:45.599
It's a theater thing.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:51.119
So if it's not part of the project it doesn't go into my swatch.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:56.880
So I just do if I'm if the gauge is in stockinet I will do a larger stockinet swatch.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.200
And once you you know the edges curl a little bit but once you block it it's no big deal.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:12.079
But if you if you're obsessed with a swatch laying flat you know then I actually say seed stitch like a little bit of seed stitch because that has the same gauge as stockinet.
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:39.039
So what was fascinating to me is about your gauge project when when they turned in their their their stats right so when I worked in a yarn store I did eight and it was my stat and I stole it from a yarn store in Portland I saw this hanging in a classroom and I asked the owner I said can I do can that's brilliant can I can I do that in my yard shop.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:59.279
And it was a it was a big frame and it said why gauge matters and it was just their staff and the the little instruction said this was knit with the same yarn the exact same needle.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.160
So they all had the same needle size and needle material.
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:02.559
Right.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:04.000
And this was the result.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:14.559
And so then I had my staff do it and then I translated that to um a medium size sweater like what would be if a hundred stitches were on the needle.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:47.359
The reason it really got stuck in my head was when I was at the Swiss Yarn Festival earlier this year and it was with Melanie Berg um so she was doing she's she has this shawl called the hug shawl German for hug shawl which is um made up of these lots of little triangles and um it's for breast cancer survivors or people suffering with breast cancer and it's made of all the little triangles and they all get sewn together and at the festival people were making all these little triangles I was helping promote that and I was really interested in it.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:28:06.400
So I I asked her if I could take all of them and make a make a picture of them or a moving picture of all of them being assembled and I was blown away because that because the instructions are so precise right the whole and the whole thing's just nipped in garter stitch and it's a small sample but literally there was this huge variation.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:23.440
Once there were 70 swatches it was about 70 swatches and I just couldn't believe that there I had in front of my eyes physical proof of just how much gauge varied and it was one of those things that you know you hear as a knitter that it matters.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:28.079
But knitting is for for most people is it's so isolating.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.759
Like it you do it by yourself and the experience you have is is unique.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:47.279
And seeing that wide range that's what I wanted to communicate to people because I thought when the Great Gage project came up as an idea that's what I felt that I wanted to be able to communicate to people is is real proof of just how big that variation is.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:29:32.480
I know you as a knittinger as a knitting teacher have seen that a thousand times but it's about laughing because I'm thinking of a text a text from my niece where I'm trying to find it uh I I I this text thread is so funny because at some point I was like you know this is going to end up on my Instagram stories right so it's a hat that's so big and I asked her and she did a gauge swatch and she said in the text thread I've heard of that I didn't really think she said something like I didn't really think that was something that really mattered I guess I was wrong and it's a hat on her boyfriend that comes down to over his mouth.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:30:59.200
It's so funny and it's and it's one of those things that I think it's quite easy you know in this in this age of how people learn to knit from YouTube and all the rest of it that you get hold of a pattern and nowhere is it reinforced enough how important that gauge is and so that that's really what I wanted to be able to do is gather that data and and you know get unassailable proof if you like that of just how much gauge can vary within a normal group of people you know you have 20 knitters you're comfortably gonna have plus or minus 20% on the size of something so the the the thing about gauge is um there are there's the normal variation of just you know we we're humans and so we knit differently um there's the needle material which changes rogue gauge a lot so I'll often say um oh if you've if you are still say it's a pattern that you don't want to adjust the row gauge like a pattern like this Harbor Springs because of the um the way the shaping works and it comes right to the center of your chest in every size row gauge would matter on this so if you're like oh I don't want to adjust row gauge I want to try to hit row gauge but I've gotten stitch gauge I would say keep needle size change needle material.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:14.799
Row gauge is the most affected by needle material because it's a it's about how that material has grabbed onto the yarn and when it exits um that's what really controls that height it's how it wraps around the needle.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.440
So stitch gauge is often also affected by the exit path by the space between two stitches.
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:30.400
This is so nerdy this is like the nerdiest this is like the most loser conversation but I love it.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:32:02.559
I could put you and me in thisone else has switched off by now so I know you answered one of my questions which is what inspired you to do this so that is um that is so cool because that in in America we have this thing called warm up America which is um uh Afghan squares and they're nine inches high and they're I don't remember how many inches wide and a lot of yarn stores will do that like use up your scrap you donate these and then we the yarn store sews them together into the blankets and it's the same thing.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:11.599
We would take we cut out a piece of cardboard at the yarn store that I used to work in a key piece of cardboard that was the size of the Afghan square.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:22.880
And we had that piece of cardboard on the blocking board and we'd have to like sometimes stretch or like squinch up block to say to shape.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:51.279
Yeah sometimes we would unbind off and just take off a few rows because we're like there's no way yeah it's but uh but that's so Melanie's um shawl as well what they did is that they sorted everything because they received so many triangles the way they resolved that is they just say what small medium and large and then they can and then they can work within that so then they you know you've got enough small ones you've got enough medium ones you've got enough large ones and so you bundle them all up and then that's and then that's good.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.799
Brilliant that's how it works.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.279
You know there's less variation within all the large ones so you can still make it work.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:09.519
Yeah that is brilliant it was cool I I I I sort of regret in a way not having all 1500 samples mailed to me but then on the other hand I think I'm probably better off not for it.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:14.319
I'd I'd love to have been able to measure them all myself to be able to get really precise measurements.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:23.839
But yeah it's probably a good thing I didn't that's a good point because the other thing is yeah that's a really good point is how were they measured?
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:34.960
Exactly Patty do you want to do you have you had a question you said just before we came on you said there's there was um a couple of things you wanted to ask me I I don't know first of all I have a question.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:37.200
How do you feel about the word influencer?
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.519
Do you embrace it are you bothered by it?
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:45.680
Do you do you like I know some people are like oh I'm not an influencer I'm a content creator and other people are like no I'm an influencer.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.200
I don't I'm not ashamed of it.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:35:05.039
How do you like um I mean it it's it's interesting where where I I think I think there's good things about being an influencer there's recognition that you can actually influence a conversation and I think that's that's where that's where it becomes interesting and also slightly more uh dangerous territory if you like for me that I I feel like like if if you if you are in a position where you can exert any level of influence then that comes with some sort of responsibility which I don't feel is I don't know I feel I have a complicated yeah I think the first time you popped up in my feed because this is the other question I had was about the crazy algorithm it you know how on threads if a friend of yours comments on something then that person shows up in your feed and a lot of times that's how I I find people I try to get in and get out when it comes to social media because it's not good for my it's not good for me personally because I compare myself to everyone I like that's my own damage like that person's better than me that person's smarter than me that person works harder than me you know it's like that's all my personal damage of some people can just enjoy social media and other people are like I I'm a terrible person.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:28.079
That's what I take away um so I I really I try to like get in do my post and get out but I'll I'll do a quick scroll and I think it was the one of the Shakespeare videos that you did was the first time you know and I think that algorithm delivered that to me because I used to work in theater so I I still have a lot of friends that I follow on theater.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:36:26.639
And so they were like oh algorithm's like it's theater it's knitting here take a look at this lady and I was like oh he funny I like him he funny man I he he made me laugh so um so yeah and then I followed you because I'm like you made me laugh and I thought I I don't know the whole thing about how do you balance I mean this is so new to me this whole concept is so new to me and like one thing I've been noticing is as a knitting teacher it bothers me that I see the what is to me an obvious algorithm hook like stop doing this that's a you know why would you do a make one when you could do this but of course a make one is is a valuable increase that's needed for certain things like you do a make one when changing from rib to stock in it.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:45.039
Because you do think it was I think I've got a video which I've put out a couple of times where I've said I'm sorry but you learned the wrong increase and I've used that because I've because I think I've said as well uh there's something about a cable needle as well where I've done the same thing like you're using a cable needle wrong or something like that.
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:49.519
But yeah and I know I know exactly what you mean come on hit me with a pathy.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:37:16.639
Well so so I know like I've done you know at trade shows I do these classes and they're like here's what you should say you should start with like what you said you've been doing this wrong or uh uh did you know that you know stop doing this do this and I know I could turn my account from you know whatever it is 83,000 to 100 000 overnight if I did some of those algorithm things.
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.639
But as a teacher I can't do it.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:40.480
I cannot say stop doing the make one do this instead because I know that every increase has a purpose and I know that there are times when you need a non-directional increase going from rib to Stocknet you can't do a left lifted or right lifted increase because that can only be working into Stockinet.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:47.920
If you're increasing evenly across a row you might be on a pearl you you don't want to do a knit front back loop because that visually creates a knit followed by a pearl.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:53.440
Anyway I've made the decisions that I made because like as a teacher I can't do paid collabs.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:02.239
I won't I can't do it because I have to if I'm recommending something it's it's got to be because I really genuinely love it.
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:09.280
So do you ever find that you have to make decisions for your job.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:15.679
So my job is a teacher the content creator job is a legitimate job and you're doing a job.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.960
You're creating like you know I mean some of the phone call things you've done freaking crack me up.
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:26.320
I love the Shakespeare stuff I I mean some of those I can't even imagine how long that must take to film.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:38.639
You know and people don't understand like you you just see a 30 second video but I know I mean I guess I know I can guess how much work went into that like a lot.
00:38:38.960 --> 00:39:35.119
Yeah some of some of them some of them some of those reels take six to twelve hours oh my god right of planning shooting cutting recutting yeah that I mean some some of them are really big I have had the occasional success where it's maybe only a couple of hours but yeah you know you're in that ballpark it's a it's a huge amount of investment in a in a video potentially there are there are reels where you have like a freaking costume change you know you've got there's like wigs I mean there's they you know there's props it's a whole it's a whole shebang so if you if have you ever struggled with like do I do I do this thing do I say this thing because I know that's what the algorithm is going to deliver eyeballs but like as a knitter I don't really believe it or not that I don't believe it but like it's like rounding up engage.
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:51.360
I'm like I'm being I'm making a broad statement but if but no but eyeballs don't want nuance so like I know that my posts don't go viral because they're too nuanced and I talk too much and I teach too much basically like what I'm doing now.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:53.039
I'm just literally talking too much.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:40:09.840
But so I how do you how do you balance that I'm fascinated that has been a subtle change for me because I've found I've found increasing discomfort with that kind of negative hook.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.519
That's it's a really specific kind of hook that you're talking about there.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:25.440
But the negative hook where you say it works really well because you want to create the emotional distance between where you are and what I'm about to deliver you.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:41:17.760
But the problem is that that does run totally contrary to my fundamental belief that you should just knit you should learn from what you do and you should broaden your experience in terms of techniques and and I really struggle with the you know that increasingly with the that's where I get I get I'll go back to increasing level of influence the bigger those videos get and you know in a way if they if they hit 10,000 people I'm not so worried at the point where they hit a million people or two million people that's that's like I don't want to have done something which makes people feel too bad or negative about about something that they've done which is connected with knitting and that's and that is a difficulty for me.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:37.119
And so I've I've tried to move away from those negative hooks um I it's not saying I won't use them or I don't use them because they are they are super valuable tools um but they but yeah that that that's one of the that's one of the many things that can keep me awake at night.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:37.599
Yeah.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:57.760
So interesting the way even the way you described it starting with a negative hook because that's the distance between what you felt and what I'm about to deliver that is the difference between a genuine content creator and someone who just slaps a post up like me because I don't give it any thought.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:06.239
It's almost like the amount of thought that I put into building a class curriculum you're literally putting into every post.
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.000
You're really Yeah it it can be you know what what you see is that people just don't care and they scroll on.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:18.079
So that's typically 50% of people will skip it within the first three seconds and it's gone.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:20.960
Like the the the algorithm will shut that down so fast.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:29.440
Oh my God I always look back at that it's like a knitting mistake right you you go back and you look at it you look at the real and you think what did I do wrong about that?
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.199
How am I going to change it next time?
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:39.360
And you can analyze it the data's there you just have to look at it and think how how did that extra yarn over creep into my work?
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:41.039
Why am I so boring?
00:42:42.400 --> 00:43:01.840
I was bummed that you got flack for something and I think that was that that was actually one of the first times I reached out to you I split into your DMs to just be like yeah welcome it's a bummer it's the it's the certificate of you've made it when people get really angry at you.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:09.199
Yeah and I I can't even remember what it was but I remember thinking oh my god this was so innocuous this was so not offensive.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:17.360
It was either like we were just making a joke or I think you were just you made a joke about something and people did not take it the right way.
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:36.079
Yeah and it you know that that happens and I think that's the that's the difficult thing about about putting yourself out there and being and being someone online and there's a lot of people that say well you know it's that's what you get if you choose to do that you deserve whatever you get for it which I don't really believe.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:41.760
I think there's there's an element of human decency that needs to be respected which isn't respected enough.
00:43:43.920 --> 00:44:28.320
But then and there are like that that's the other flavor of of stuff that's difficult is when something goes um viral and there are there are some other creators like Lisa Kitterking Crochet um and uh Sean Carl at Nittitude both That those creators have helped me quite a lot with the social media side and giving me advice and kind of forewarned me actually about the viral the nature of going viral and you know more than a year ago, just how once that happens and once you go viral, you're going to such an unknown audience, basically all bets are off and people get nasty, just because you're you're starting to interact with people who are a long distance away.
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:39.679
And it's kind of like a it's a taxation, and like that's something as well that I factor into the content that I create is like what levels of risk am I willing to take.
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:51.440
And I've had I've had some bits of experience now where there's a particular kind of content I categorically won't make again because I've had such negative experience as a result of doing it.
00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:03.440
Um so yeah, that's a it's it is a learning process, and I do change what I do a lot um in response to both comments that get back, how people respond to things.
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:06.159
Yeah, it's a there is a lot to it.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:07.840
Thank you for appreciating that, Patty.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:19.440
For not taking it too personally, because I mean I I that is you know definitely something my ADHD brain struggles with about you know, you take things really personally.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:26.239
So like that's it's one of the delightful, delightful um symptoms.
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:34.400
Um I can't remember what they uh what the the official name of it is like I can't remember rejection dysphoria or something.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:40.400
I there's so many delightful names for uh justice sensitivity, that's another delightful symptom of ADHD.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:48.159
But um good on you for understanding the difference between you as a human and the content you create.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:54.400
In a way, it's easier when I am wearing a costume and a wig because then it's I feel you.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:55.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:56.159
I feel you.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:59.440
Oh, you didn't like Hamlet, that's fine.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:00.159
Right.
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.400
For me, I'm like, do more theater.
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.320
Um are you a theater fan?
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.639
Is that what could that what made you do that one?
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:08.880
Not massively.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:37.199
Um I don't know where that do you know what that that came from a really dark feeling I was having, and I just I I don't know why, but the um one of my kids was doing Shakespeare at school, and and we were talking about that as a uh just just how that how that phrase appears, how the to be or not to be, and I just thought, well, why isn't there a to knit or not to knit?
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:52.239
And and I I just really wanted to lean into the darkness of that at the time, and that's where that came from, was then just exploring just how dark a passage you could make that and connect that with the mental health aspect of knitting.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.679
I actually recorded a number of versions of it because again, this is one where it was really important to me to get it right.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:05.519
I recorded it first as just a spoken poem, and I put it as a trial reel and it completely failed.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.199
And I was like, but this matters, I need to do it, I need to do it better.
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:13.679
So I reached out to a theatre friend of mine and I sent it to them and I said, Well, what do you think of this?
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:14.960
They said, You're doing Shakespeare.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:16.800
Where's the white frilly shirt?
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:20.480
So I did it again and I put it out as a trial reel, and it still didn't get there.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.480
And I sent the video and I said, Why doesn't this work?
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:26.159
They said, But it's Shakespeare, you're wearing a frilly shirt, but where's the eye makeup?
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.119
Where's the skull?
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.639
Where's you're trying to communicate something dark, you need to go for it?
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.119
I was like, okay, take three.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:38.400
There was take three, and then take and take four, take three was still too slow.
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.960
So this is where we get into attention deficit of the population.
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:49.440
Version three of that was a slow-paced, measured, dramatic theatrical display.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.760
By the time I got to version four, which is the one that went then started to go viral.
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:57.119
Again, you can hear it when I when I articulate it.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.199
To knit or not to knit, that is the question.
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:05.440
It's fast and it's spoken quickly just to get through the words to keep people's attention.
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:16.480
And but but that was that that that's that's a that's a lesson and a journey, and something that it mattered to me, and it mattered to get it right, and it mattered to me to communicate those darker aspects.
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:20.880
And a lot of people just like, oh, it's funny it's Shakespeare, and and and and off we go.
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:33.440
But to me, it was it was much more important to and and some people reached out really, really touched by the by the resonance both of the original Shakespeare and then also what I tried to recreate.
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:46.400
And that and that's what really then matters is when people reach out and you've actually touched people and actually made that connection with someone who's who's cared about what you've done and and it's made some sort of difference to them.
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:48.719
I know I love it even more.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.159
I'm gonna go back and watch it again.
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:56.400
And this is so this is probably, you know, this is where I I think of content that I think is interesting and nobody else does.
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:06.239
To me, if you did a a reel or a post that was just about like FYI, you want to see how the sausage is made?
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:20.960
And that was like a little clip of all the different versions and how that grew, like the same little, you would take the same opening line and show, I don't know if you saved the old versions, but to me, that would be like I think that stuff is fascinating.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:38.239
I think there would be a deeper appreciation, you know, it wouldn't go viral, but there'd be a deeper appreciation for those that follow you and love you of how much thought and work you put into what you deliver to us that we're like, oh cool, that we like watch for a second, and like that was fun.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:46.960
Next, you know, like the end of the Truman show where they're hanging on to every move of Truman and then they turn it off and they go, What else is on?
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:47.760
You know.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:48.719
Exactly.
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:49.119
Exactly.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:50:03.679
But Patsy, I wanna I wanna talk about I I don't want to lose time to be able to talk about your new book, which I have got a copy of Knitting ER.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:15.360
And I was so I was delighted to receive this book because I mean I I'm fascinated, I'm fascinated about fixing, but also I'm such a visual learner.
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:38.320
Like the way I've learned knitting and so on is by watching videos online, and like I must admit, when it when knitting ER came through the post box, I was expect I wasn't expecting to be able to interpret things that well because drawing of knitting, I've I haven't seen it done brilliantly that many times.
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.960
Like it's not a thing, and I need to see videos of things moving.
00:50:43.199 --> 00:51:04.960
And I would say, before I'm just talking about your book before you get a chance, but I would say actually, before when I then read the book and when I started looking at how you fix stuff, the illustrations and the explanations are phenomenal, and you it does make sense, and actually having things written drawn means they're not wiggling about all over the place.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:05.519
Right.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:15.280
I have one mirror say I don't have to keep hitting pause 10 seconds back to pause 10 seconds back, because I have a still image of what's important.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.000
But can I can I give a shout out to Linda Schmidt, my technical uh illustrator?
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.239
Because I she is so unbelievable.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.480
And I I'm writing a series of blogs about the the visuals behind the book.
00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:35.679
I wrote one about Franklin, I just published one about Anna, the book designer, but the next one is about Linda Schmidt.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:39.039
And this is how I I wrote a blog about how the sausage is made.
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:57.440
I show in this blog that's gonna come out soon photos that I sent to her, then early illustrations that she drew, and then me saying, No, this is this, and she's told me from the very beginning she was nervous about lace, about drawing the lace because she's not really a lace knitter.
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:02.960
So the drawings, if they came to life, you could unravel them.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:05.199
Every stitch is real.
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:12.239
Did she do that by photographing the lace and then working from that as a drawing?
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:13.039
No.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:19.840
So first of all, I photograph every step, but what she does is she's a knitter.
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:26.559
Yeah, she has the photo, but she casts on and she needs to make sure that she understands every trick.
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.519
So in the blog, you're gonna see her knitting.
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:31.039
She goes back and forth.
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:36.000
She finally understood it when she knit with two different colors.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:41.199
She knit the right side of lace in one color and she knit the wrong side of lace in the other color.
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:59.039
Because one of the things that she was having trouble seeing, not being a lace knitter, and I kept kicking the drawings back, was where the yarn over goes and that fact that the decrease isn't the decrease row, isn't the row where the two stitches come together?
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.920
That's the wrong side row where the two stitches come together.
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:02.400
Right.
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:02.719
Yeah.
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:05.840
The decrease row is the single stitch that comes through.
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:16.960
So her desire, the way she ended up doing it is she said, I can't draw the fixes in the lace until I master just drawing the lace.
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:18.960
So not unlike a knitter.
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:21.519
She did with drawing what we do with knitting.
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.280
Like, I gotta, I gotta knit it first.
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:24.960
I gotta understand it.
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:32.320
I really wanted people to understand how much work and and how how she just kept fighting to understand it.
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.079
I mean, honestly, that comes across that comes across in spades.
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:38.800
I was I was blown away.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:43.679
Like this this book, knitting the art, like the quality of the illustration, the photography, obviously.
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:46.800
I mean, and writing's not bad, Patty.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.440
Oh, yeah.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:50.800
Just some good ideas there about how to fix knitting.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.719
But honestly, the the way that the illustrations bring it to life, it's really amazing.
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:56.079
It makes it a very valuable book.
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.320
I'm pretty grateful for you sending it across to me.
00:53:58.559 --> 00:53:59.840
Oh, I'm so glad you like it.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.480
She the other thing she does is she'll know when I'll photograph my hands.
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:08.320
And first of all, she said, no hands in drawing unless you have to have them.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:09.760
Hands are weird.
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:17.920
So one of the things that's great about the illustrations, as opposed to just a video, is there's no handedness here.
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.400
You can't tell is this picking or throwing.
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:25.119
I wanted people to read, follow along with the steps, not just watch and match.
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:32.480
So hopefully you know, you don't want to like you don't want to, you don't want to fix a hole for the first time in your sweater.
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:33.599
No, you want to be a few.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.400
The best place to fix it is in a little swatch.
00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:36.719
Yeah.
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:42.960
But the other thing that was really important to me is that the fact that people knit differently.
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:54.800
So it really bummed me out that the only other fix it book that I was able to find when kind of thinking about what I wanted to do with knitting ER is about a 20-year-old book, 22 years old.
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:56.639
And it's just really basic fixes.
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:58.639
It's picking up drop stitches, that kind of stuff.
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:05.440
But right at the beginning, it has a picture of eastern mounted stitches, stitches with the leading leg in the back.
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:11.920
Which by the way, more knitters walk the earth that knit that way than Western knitting.
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:12.639
More knitters.
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:14.559
And it said, Oh, this is wrong.
00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.920
So this is an example of incorrectly mounted stitches.
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.519
Is it so?
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:24.960
Tell me which branch of the knitting police.
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.039
Is it Western centric writer?
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.239
It is not.
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:36.639
So that I say right at the beginning, if if your stitches look like this, don't worry, you will not be abandoned by this book.
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:46.239
So in the fixes, if it matters, like how I'll say, and you you do this at the end if you want your stitches mounted this way.
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:47.920
You do this if you want your stitches.
00:55:48.320 --> 00:56:03.599
I hate that Eastern knitters and combination knitters have to figure everything out on their own versus being included in in books, because there are more knters that walk the earth that knit Eastern than Western.
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:04.719
Yeah.
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:11.760
But to paraphrase an old movie, the places that they knit Eastern, they don't need no stinking patterns.
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.480
So, you know, they knit until something's sweater-shaped.
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:24.559
Yeah, which is you know, that that brings us right back to where we started about the uh where patterns are going and and the extent to which you need to spell things out for people.
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:27.280
Yeah, I mean, that is tricky.
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:45.360
Like, yes, we do say knit two together SSK, but uh that that's a that's a reality of um I don't think it's realistic that that western knitters are ever going to be written as make a right slanting decrease here because that's just too many words.
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:50.159
So the reality is and and and and the you know you use the shorthand for it.
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:50.559
Yeah.
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:59.280
Patsy, if people want to find more out about you, where where would where's the best place for them to go online to to find you or physically?
00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:00.480
What what do people do?
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:08.480
My website is the the the central place for everything, which is just my name, patty lions.com.
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:17.519
So from there you can find the books, the my my knitting school, um, upcoming events like we're gonna be together in Germany.
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:19.599
Yeah, at Munich.
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:20.159
Munich.
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:21.519
I'm very excited about that.
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:23.920
Patty, it's been an absolute delight talking to you.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.920
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.239
Thank you so much for sending me knitting ER book.
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:29.119
I'm very grateful.
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:30.800
It's been lovely to chat to you.
00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:33.360
Can I ask you one knitting ER question?
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:34.480
Go on.
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:35.039
Okay.
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:40.800
Was there any fix in the book that you were like, damn, I didn't know that?
00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:46.639
Because that's all I I'm always interested to know if there was if there was one that that made you perk up.
00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:49.760
The post the post bind off fixes.
00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:00.000
Ah I was I could not like the fact that you were fixing a hole in lace after like I I read it and I was like, oh, of course, I I get it.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:06.079
But I was like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have thought about how to do a fix post bind off like that.
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.800
That was a that was a surprise to me.
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:09.519
Cool.
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:13.199
And that that's the knitting surgery um chapter where we actually cut.
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:19.199
But I love the the whole fake is as good as fixed chapter, all the post-bind off without cutting.
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.719
Because I, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, it's good enough.
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.119
I also think there's a there's a big part of that in life, like just accept it and move on.
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:33.119
That's triage.
00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:33.360
Yeah.
00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:39.840
So in knitting ER, we talk about diagnosis, preventative medicine, and treatment plan, but finally I do say, then there's triage.
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:41.119
Do I even want to fix it?
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:43.760
And that is totally up to you.
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:50.800
Like if you have a mistake under your arm and everyone else is like, why would you fix that?
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.360
But it bothers you, fix it.
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:59.760
If you have a mistake right in the middle of your sweater and it doesn't bother you, and people are like, How could you not fix that?
00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:01.039
And you're like, I don't want to.
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:02.079
Then don't fix it.
00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:03.119
It's your sweater.
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.679
Don't let anyone tell you what to do.
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.599
I'm not your mother.
00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.280
Fine, fine words to live by.
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:12.719
Thank you so much, Patty.
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:14.000
It's been an absolute pleasure.
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.480
Oh my god, I could talk to you forever, which clearly you're like, I know, shut up.
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:22.719
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Yarn Library.
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:26.800
If you've enjoyed the conversation, please do follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:31.280
And if you have a moment to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more people discover the show.
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:38.960
If you have a question, comment, or idea for a future episode, someone you want to hear me interview, email me at podcast at cleavelynits.com.
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:44.639
And if you'd like to see this conversation or watch my longer form videos, head to Clevelandits on YouTube.
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.880
I'll be back very soon with another episode.
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.239
Until then, thank you for listening and happy knitting.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:06.719
One of the things that I am desperate to ask you is how you feel about modern patterns.
00:00:06.959 --> 00:00:12.960
Do you think we're creating now a new breed of less capable knitters?
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:13.759
Yes.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:24.000
Hello and welcome to Yarn Library with me, Adam Cleveley, the podcast where I talk to fascinating people in the fiber world about knitting, creativity, community, and the stories behind the stitches.
00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.480
Pick up your needles, pour a cup of tea, settle in, and welcome to the Yarn Library.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:31.359
In this episode of Yarn Library, I'm talking to Patty Lyons.
00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:45.759
Patty Lyons is one of the world-renowned knitting teachers, someone who I take real inspiration from because she's all about giving knitters confidence and moving forwards and being able to progress with understanding your knitting.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:53.359
I'm kind of talking to her about at the very end of the episode about knitting ER, her new book, which is an amazing book.
00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:59.039
But we get to cover so many topics before we even go there, and that's what this podcast is about.
00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:04.079
Anyway, we got so carried away so quickly, I never even recorded an introduction properly.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:11.599
So whilst I'm editing the podcast and I'm doing my cooking at the same time, I realized that I literally have to record an intro.
00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:13.920
Anyway, I hope you love listening to Yarn Library.
00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:15.120
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.439
Enjoy this episode with Patty Lyons.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:19.120
I'll expand upon that.
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:35.120
Um wow, it's such, it's such a tricksy topic because there have been a lot of changes in patterns that I that I 100% agree with, even though, to be honest, I I hate change.
00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:38.879
You know, I I'll just I just hate change.
00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:46.959
But so I had to like take a breath and get out of the all change is bad.
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.120
It's very spoon-feedy, isn't it?
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:56.000
Because they because now the expectation is that well, I buy a pattern and it should tell me everything about how to knit that.
00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:03.680
I mean, short of possibly how I hold the yarn in my hand, the pattern is expected to tell you literally everything.
00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:04.799
I literally saw a pattern.
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:06.879
Or for some patterns it is.
00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.560
I literally saw a pattern that that didn't just say cast on.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:17.280
It said holding the needle in your right hand, drape the tail over, like describe long tail cast on.
00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:18.319
Wow.
00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:20.560
So okay, that's going a long way then.
00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.599
Yeah, that is pants of crazy.
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.879
So I always say we've stopped knitting and we've started reading.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.840
And there's a lot of drawbacks to that.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:42.960
And it's not just um the fact that we don't feel empowered, which is like literally that I remember Franklin Habbott asked me.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:47.599
Um, we were stuck on the last image of Patty's knitting bag of tricks.
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.039
We had a we had the first image, we were stuck on that last image.
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:52.800
This was the first book I wrote.
00:02:52.879 --> 00:03:02.240
And he said, tell me, talk to me about how you want, just give me a couple sentences about how you want the knitter to feel at the by the end of the book.
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:05.439
And I said, Oh, I can just say it in one word, empowered.
00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.400
And then he knew exactly what to draw because he's amazing.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:14.400
Um but not only is that like my you know soapbox, is I want knitters to feel empowered.
00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:22.000
But when you spoon feed everything for a pattern, there's no skill transfer.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:29.680
You know how to make that pattern, which is why I never teach a pattern class.
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.520
Because I don't want to teach you row by row how to knit my pattern.
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:41.680
I want you to have skills and then go forth, knit all the things, go, yeah.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:48.719
Um, but yeah, there's I I could like I could literally spend two hours talking about this, and you're like, oh God, please stop.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:04:08.639
But it's an interesting, it's an interesting problem because I think on the one hand, having more spoon feeding for knitters allows more knitters to come in and do more ambitious patterns and have the confidence to go on to do a a bigger and potentially more daunting pattern.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:21.279
But you're right about I I don't worry so much about the impact that that has on the knitter that there's a negative effect that they're not learning in the same high-quality way.
00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:35.839
I worry actually about the impact on the barrier to creating designs, because as you said, you're now expecting a designer not just to be a designer, but they also have to be a teacher and communicator and all those other things, you know, as well as a writer and those other things.
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:38.720
Yeah, but that's what that's where my problem with it.
00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:41.040
I I I I worry about both ends.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:51.040
I worry about what's happened to the industry in general, and I worry about uh I mean, we we can talk about testers, that's a whole other thing.
00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.480
But I worry that I don't I I don't want people to watch and match.
00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.040
So my videos, they always take longer.
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:07.920
My book takes longer to read because you can watch and match a technique, but that doesn't mean you've learned it.
00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:17.600
So what happens when you're just, you know, when I teach short rows, I'll say, tell me um a show of hands how many, because I teach a class that teaches like five short row methods.
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:23.519
I'll say, show of hands how many people have done um the wrap and turn, and that's the most popular one.
00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.279
So most people raise their hand.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.000
And I say, tell me how many people do wrap and turn by doing this.
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.920
Slip one stitch from right needle to left needle.
00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:36.560
It's it's the same problem.
00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:39.680
It's the same problem with like make one right and make one left, right?
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:46.560
It's it's that everyone has to Google it and look it up each time because you're never learning how and why it leans right or left.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:53.120
You're just learning the mechanics of what you like functionally, what are the steps that I take in order to make this happen.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.120
And it doesn't lean.
00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:01.279
So that's another, that's a it's a it's a non um, it's it it has no lean.
00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.839
It's a non-directional uh increase.
00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:09.279
The stitch itself stands straight up and down between two other stitches.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:15.040
The only reason it's called left and right is the decorative twist of the actual yarn underneath.
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:19.439
Yeah, it's a non it's a non-directional increase.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.360
It's not like a uh left leaning or right leaning increase.
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.199
Um but that's that's fascinating.
00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:33.920
Because I'd never and I'd never understood that because because exactly because when when you create the make one left and right, you understand that.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:38.639
Oh exactly, you create a column coming out of a spot.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:43.279
That's not a that's not a um it isn't that doesn't have direction.
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:49.839
As opposed to a decrease where one one stitch going on top of the other means the fabric is slanting.
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.360
But if you the reason we use a make one, um coming, oh my god, where I'm going everywhere.
00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:02.399
But that you know, the this is just an example uh about what you were talking about with patterns.
00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:09.199
So a pattern used to say, you know, increase one stitch each side.
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:17.839
Your mad skills as a knitter, what you brought to the table is what type of increase or decrease do I want to use?
00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.160
Where on the side do I want it?
00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:21.839
Do I want it all the way at the edge?
00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:34.480
And I want the the uh uh, you know, I want the fabric if I'm gonna go from a larger hip to a smaller and I want it to to sort of flare, or do I want it in dart shaping?
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:41.279
So that's what I I I to I totally get what you say about the barrier to design, and that's a problem too.
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:53.199
I worry about how much is lost because I loved as a new knitter experimenting, getting out a swatch and being like, well, what does this increase do?
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:53.920
What does that do?
00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:02.079
Oh, I oh, that looks cool, you know, and that made me feel like I was a skilled person.
00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.000
I wasn't just reading and doing exactly what it said.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.240
I was creating something that was mine.
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:39.279
So I was interested because I I read through a lot of your biography as I was researching for this podcast, and I found it fascinating your history of both coming into knitting as a as an adult and changing career from um from stage management on Broadway, but then also how you worked at a yarn shop and were solving people's problems for them, but also by having to replicate those problems and mending things that you were deliberately breaking, if you like.
00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.600
Maybe everyone wants to know how do I learn how Patty Lyons learned it.
00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:50.399
No, but I'm but I'm old enough to to realize I don't have to be all things to all people.
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:58.799
So I have a I I actually filmed a little YouTube video years ago for Vogue of what to expect from Patty Lyons class.
00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:08.480
And I say at the beginning of the the video, you know, you you're looking at a schedule of shows, and there's and there's so many teachers to choose from, and there's so many different styles of teaching.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:16.639
And then there's like the deep dive, we're going in, you know, fire hose of information.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:28.399
And I I and I quote a couple of students in the video, and I say, like, I think I I quoted one student saying, like, I was I was exhausted after your class, but like in the best way.
00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:36.639
And then someone else said, and this is your probably you might be, I don't know if this is an American movie reference from like a really long time ago.
00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:41.200
But this student came up to me after class and she just it was in New York.
00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:45.600
So New Yorkers sound aggressive when they're really being nice.
00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.960
And she was like, You just Mr.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:50.399
Miyagi'd me.
00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.720
Which probably doesn't make any sense to you.
00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:54.559
It's a it's a it does.
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:55.120
Okay.
00:09:55.600 --> 00:10:07.759
Um, so I I'm what I hope is by being who I am, that the students that want to learn the why, not the how, will be the ones that come to my class.
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:20.799
If you want to just like I I remember when I did work at that yarn store, there was an Upper East Side woman came in and she wanted a yarn sub for the um log cabin blanket.
00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.000
And I sat down because she wanted to do it in a different way.
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.039
I sat down and I was like, okay, so let's take a look at how this works.
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:31.759
So we're and she's like, Why are you telling me this?
00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:40.159
And I said, Oh, well, you know the old expression, if you um teach a man to fish versus giving him the fish.
00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:45.679
And she said, Look, if you want the sale, give me the fish.
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.240
So I was like, Oh, cool, cool, cool.
00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:50.799
Yeah.
00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.039
Like I got.
00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.679
I mean, the world's the world is full of people, right?
00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:57.840
Like it's that's everyone's different.
00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.159
So I guess, yeah, that's that's fascinating.
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:05.519
But I I think that's also that's also fascinating for me about the different sorts of knitters that are out there.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:22.559
I guess going back to the question about patterns, I guess the worry is with patterns, and what you're saying is that there's a a race potentially to try and make patter suitable literally for everyone, yeah, which dilutes then the ability of a pattern to help a knitter understand and think for themselves.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:29.919
In the same way that, like, if you want to learn how to do cryptic crosswords, learn how to do cryptic crosswords and learn how to solve those puzzles.
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.559
It is a skill that you can have if you want it.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.000
You have to choose if you want it.
00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.120
To me, the biggest problem is it's morphing two things.
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:41.360
It's morphing a pattern, which is instructions on how to make a thing.
00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.480
And I always say it's not even instructions on how to make a thing.
00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:52.960
It's when it comes to a sweater, it's a few examples of how that thing might be made, which is a whole other topic about fit.
00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:56.240
It's morphing that with a knitting class.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:06.559
And that's what I find is a bummer is that by making, by trying to merge a knitting class and a pattern, you get a diluted version of each thing.
00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:08.000
Right.
00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:13.519
So I'll give you an example of someone that I think does it in a banger way.
00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.159
Oh, and Zandy too, I think does it in a great way.
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:23.600
Laura Nelkin, um Laura's patterns are written very carefully.
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.799
They're written as professional patterns, they're not spoon-feed.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:33.600
But then in addition to that, she does have video content on the trickier aspects.
00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.879
But first of all, she charges accordingly.
00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:50.000
But um, but the pattern is she has really, really hard lace patterns and she has you know entry-level patterns.
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:57.279
Um I think I I use the cooking example.
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.080
Do you I I don't cook at all, but my husband cooks.
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:06.799
And he uses recipes kind of like a lot of us use knitting patterns, like a jumping off point.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:07.519
Yeah.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:16.559
And I remember having such an aha moment about knitting patterns when he was like, Oh, read me the next thing that it says there.
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.960
And I said, uh, it says add a cup of ghee.
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.320
And he's like, Yeah, after that.
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.480
And I said, Well, what's ghee?
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:24.639
He says, It's it's clarified butter.
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:25.679
Well, what's that?
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:31.440
And then he starts describing how you it first of all, it's an ingredient that needs a recipe.
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:32.960
So already I'm out, right?
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:34.159
Like I would be out.
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:36.080
I'm out.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.039
Um and I said, and I get all indignant.
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.039
I'm like, uh, but how would you know that?
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.120
How that's what a terrible recipe.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.200
How would you know what ghee is?
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.759
And and he's like, because it's not a cooking how-to book, it's a recipe.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:59.360
So, like, if you if you have a pattern, is someone like cast on, how do I know what how to cast on?
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:00.399
What a terrible pattern.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:01.360
And I was like, Oh.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.840
Such an interesting way of thinking about it.
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:11.120
And I like I'm a I'm a big cook, so in every sense.
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.080
So I that that really rings true with me, and I really understand that.
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.919
It's a really interesting way of thinking about it.
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:40.639
Like, are you because also you you get these, you know, you can you can have a recipe where you want to cook this extremely elaborate dish, but to a professional chef, you can write some very simple, you know, make 500 grams of Pat Sucra or something, where you know that that is a whole other recipe, but every pastry chef would know how to make that instantly.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:42.159
And so, like, why is it a problem?
00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:46.720
Wh what did you just what were the words that you just said?
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.679
You're so fancy.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.919
It was it was well, it's like shoulder shaping, isn't it?
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.840
Now, now now what in your set in sleeps.
00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.840
I literally have no idea what the word was that you just said.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:01.679
That's how little I know about cooking.
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:08.240
Oh, Pat Sucre, as in uh it's just French for a sweet pastry.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.559
Oh my god, you're so fancy.
00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:12.879
Well, there we go.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.159
I've I've I've cooked for longer than I've knitted, Patty.
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:22.080
One thing you've already mentioned, which is that you've got thoughts on pattern testing.
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.720
So as a relatively now you're holding your head already.
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.120
Oh my god, I so many thoughts.
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:36.080
My journey to knitting was that the first thing I knitted was I wanted a cable scarf.
00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:41.519
And so I researched how you made cables, and then I made a cable scarf.
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:43.840
And I didn't know that patterns existed.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:53.279
And I suppose that is the most patty school of learning to knit because I looked up all the bits, worked out how to make it make sense, and and that was that.
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:58.240
Was the cable hat with the giant holes was that to go with your cable scarf?
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.080
Yes, that was the sec that that hat was then the second thing that I did.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.639
I'm so glad you kept it, by the way.
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:06.879
I'm I'm so delighted as well.
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:08.240
It's brilliant.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.759
When I started then thinking, do you know what?
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.840
Patterns, it it's really interesting to be able to share these with other people.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.200
And when people say, I love that, how do you make it?
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:20.559
What's the pattern name?
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.279
To start doing that brought me joy.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:42.399
But then I found it fascinating, this process of pattern testing, and I've only been doing this for a couple of years, and the idea that you have to build this community of knitters around you who want to knit these things for for free, essentially.
00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:55.440
We don't is uh is a is a really interesting thing for me from a commercial perspective about I mean about about how people are doing things for free and because they they love what you're doing or whatever.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:02.159
But yeah, what what changes do you like has it always been the same that every pattern gets tested to death?
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.119
No, this is a brand new concept.
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:09.119
This is this is why I I I I I have so many feels on this.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:17.519
So throughout the history of time, um knitting patterns, it's pure math.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.640
It's pure math the way you grade them, and usually one sample is knit.
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:24.079
That's it, period.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:35.200
My issue with testing is that not unlike the patterns, newer designers think that this is a standard.
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.920
And what what we're getting is patterns written by committee.
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:46.640
So, first and most importantly, testing should never replace a tech editor.
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:54.480
So tech edit and and people say, oh, well, a tech editor doesn't know anything about you know whether something is confusing.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:56.559
Yes, they do, that's literally their job.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.960
Or a tech editor doesn't know about fit.
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.119
Yes, it is, that's literally their job.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:24.240
So I use one tech editor who's a fit specialist when I'm doing something that I'm like, like I I I graded a sweater, um it was uh Simone, which is a bottom-up circular yoke, and and I had this idea of like, oh, it'd be so fun for a class, it could have sleeves or not sleeves, and you know, I thought I'd be able to write it as one pattern.
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.599
The idea of like, oh, but don't you need to test every size?
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:28.160
No.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:36.160
Because Natalie Warner, who's a brilliant designer, she said the most brilliant thing, which is size is not shape.
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.079
Size is not shape.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:38.480
Yep.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.119
Occasionally I use preview knitters.
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.880
I use preview knitters for uh Simone, for charade.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.559
Preview knitters are different than testers.
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:57.119
Preview knitters are where I'm being very honest and I'm saying, here is a fully tech edited pattern.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.279
Tech editing is categorically a paid, like that is a paid labor thing.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.079
That is something you must pay for as a service.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.480
That's not something anyone does for free.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:10.559
Um, and it's just like it's a real skill.
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.599
It's it's obviously something it's it's really important to do.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:40.160
Um, I um the other thing I find fascinating about that is that where you talk about size and shape, yeah, is that of course this comes back to what you're saying about learning how you knit, and like this is where everyone's body is different, and if you know and understand your body, there might be things that you want to put into knits routinely which make a pattern fit you better than it would otherwise.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:49.119
And those, like again, should those be in every knitting pattern, or should you just understand how to knit to adjust for your particular waist shape or so on?
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:54.400
Well, sometimes um some patterns will come with a little cheat sheet.
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:13.119
Like I love that um Carol Feller, who is a designer that I very much admire, and when people are looking for seamless knits, I'll say Carol Feller, because what she did was she has the training and the and the fit expertise of all different constructions.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:21.519
What she did was reverse engineer a proper fit saddle shoulder, set and sleeve, you know, to be uh seamless.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:33.839
But um, she'll often have like a uh a single sheet of like these are some fit tips, or these are some easy adjustments if it's just a standalone pattern, not part of a video class.
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:44.000
Um but the reason I like teaching video sweater classes, and then the nicest thing someone said to me is, Oh, I thought this class was going to teach me how to knit this sweater.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:58.559
I didn't realize it was gonna teach me more about knitting sweaters, is I teach sweater mapping, which basically is a concept that I stole from Japanese knitting patterns, which is laying everything out in one map.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:05.920
So I you have a blank schematic and you you put the whole pattern as numbers in your map.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:11.599
Now that not only helps you understand the pattern, but then you have this map to go, oh, I'm long-wasted.
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:18.799
So okay, visually, like, oh, there where it has me work X number of rows, I'm gonna, I'm gonna change that part, I'm gonna change this part.
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.279
And it just makes you understand it so much more.
00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:29.119
I guess what I would say is, you know, being an old designer, who people they're like, oh, I know what a Patty Lyons pattern is.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:42.240
So, you know, I I would say definitely take Kate's advice and put out some free patterns so people have a sense of what you how you write, but also hire five different tech editors for five different patterns.
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.640
Ask them questions, learn from them.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:49.119
And when I say ask questions, I also mean like ask questions like a knitter.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.839
Like the I remember, and I remember her name, Charlotte Quiggle, amazing tech editor.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.519
And I this was a a design I think I did for some magazine, maybe creative knitting, I don't remember.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:23:33.039
had short row shaping it had re a reverse uh short tail short row shaping and she changed the way it was written and she and I I emailed her and I was like that's not what I knit and she said I know it's not what you knit you I I respect that you knit it like perfectly but you wrote it in a much more complicated less user friendly way my way of joining it makes the row makes the two sides differ by one row which visually no one will know but it's gobs easier to do I was like write things in the most inclusive way to check which is why like shoulder shaping I would still write as a stair step bind off because shoulder shaping in flat knitting is telling you how many stitches go away you as the knitter if you've got the mad skills to do a sloped bind off uh convert that to short row shaping a decreased bind off good on you but why would I bar entry to that pattern by writing shoulder shaping in the most complicated way I remember when I did um I I did some pattern and it was I think it was shoulder shaping and it was like for this size you bind off this number then this number then this number that and every size had a different number.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:45.279
And again the tech editor kicked it back and said although I respect the fact that you are being absolutely true to every size, you've now made it more complicated to read.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.400
So what that taught me when I grade is is first you have um you know you have all your true measurements.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:58.079
Well first you have you know raw measurements then you apply the gauge to it and you have true measurements.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:11.200
Then I look at the instructions and I look for the the things that can be grouped like oh the difference between that stitch count and this stitch count the human eye will never perceive okay so I'll change that one.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.559
So that they're grouped in a way that's easier to read.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:27.039
Because that's the other thing I don't think new designers think about is how more words more complicated more numbers more complicated.
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:39.359
Yeah more more more room for mistakes really totally thousand percent this episode of Yarn Library is sponsored by me, Adam Cleavely well, by Make a getaway retreats which I also run and co-host.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:46.480
They're three or four night retreats where knitters and crocheters spend proper time together learning, relaxing, focusing on their craft.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.559
We're in Cambridge this September and Edinburgh during the Christmas markets at the end of November.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:25:11.920
There are classes plenty of time to yourself and a really lovely group of crafters coming out of the things I know that we we really should talk about because you are interested in these retreats already about gauge project on gauge limited places remaining um I mean did you have any question for me about that about that about like inside track on on any data you want.
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.240
I was going to show you some swatches over here.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:40.319
First of all can I tell you how happy I was when I and this was the swatch that I was going to show you but I think it's over there somewhere um that the garter that you added was just like two stitches as opposed to you know uh what a lot of people do is like a garter border and I don't do a garter border at all.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.000
If if it's not on the if it's not on the page it's not on the stage.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:45.599
It's a theater thing.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:51.119
So if it's not part of the project it doesn't go into my swatch.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:56.880
So I just do if I'm if the gauge is in stockinet I will do a larger stockinet swatch.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.200
And once you you know the edges curl a little bit but once you block it it's no big deal.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:12.079
But if you if you're obsessed with a swatch laying flat you know then I actually say seed stitch like a little bit of seed stitch because that has the same gauge as stockinet.
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:39.039
So what was fascinating to me is about your gauge project when when they turned in their their their stats right so when I worked in a yarn store I did eight and it was my stat and I stole it from a yarn store in Portland I saw this hanging in a classroom and I asked the owner I said can I do can that's brilliant can I can I do that in my yard shop.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:59.279
And it was a it was a big frame and it said why gauge matters and it was just their staff and the the little instruction said this was knit with the same yarn the exact same needle.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.160
So they all had the same needle size and needle material.
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:02.559
Right.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:04.000
And this was the result.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:14.559
And so then I had my staff do it and then I translated that to um a medium size sweater like what would be if a hundred stitches were on the needle.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:47.359
The reason it really got stuck in my head was when I was at the Swiss Yarn Festival earlier this year and it was with Melanie Berg um so she was doing she's she has this shawl called the hug shawl German for hug shawl which is um made up of these lots of little triangles and um it's for breast cancer survivors or people suffering with breast cancer and it's made of all the little triangles and they all get sewn together and at the festival people were making all these little triangles I was helping promote that and I was really interested in it.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:28:06.400
So I I asked her if I could take all of them and make a make a picture of them or a moving picture of all of them being assembled and I was blown away because that because the instructions are so precise right the whole and the whole thing's just nipped in garter stitch and it's a small sample but literally there was this huge variation.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:23.440
Once there were 70 swatches it was about 70 swatches and I just couldn't believe that there I had in front of my eyes physical proof of just how much gauge varied and it was one of those things that you know you hear as a knitter that it matters.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:28.079
But knitting is for for most people is it's so isolating.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.759
Like it you do it by yourself and the experience you have is is unique.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:47.279
And seeing that wide range that's what I wanted to communicate to people because I thought when the Great Gage project came up as an idea that's what I felt that I wanted to be able to communicate to people is is real proof of just how big that variation is.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:29:32.480
I know you as a knittinger as a knitting teacher have seen that a thousand times but it's about laughing because I'm thinking of a text a text from my niece where I'm trying to find it uh I I I this text thread is so funny because at some point I was like you know this is going to end up on my Instagram stories right so it's a hat that's so big and I asked her and she did a gauge swatch and she said in the text thread I've heard of that I didn't really think she said something like I didn't really think that was something that really mattered I guess I was wrong and it's a hat on her boyfriend that comes down to over his mouth.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:30:59.200
It's so funny and it's and it's one of those things that I think it's quite easy you know in this in this age of how people learn to knit from YouTube and all the rest of it that you get hold of a pattern and nowhere is it reinforced enough how important that gauge is and so that that's really what I wanted to be able to do is gather that data and and you know get unassailable proof if you like that of just how much gauge can vary within a normal group of people you know you have 20 knitters you're comfortably gonna have plus or minus 20% on the size of something so the the the thing about gauge is um there are there's the normal variation of just you know we we're humans and so we knit differently um there's the needle material which changes rogue gauge a lot so I'll often say um oh if you've if you are still say it's a pattern that you don't want to adjust the row gauge like a pattern like this Harbor Springs because of the um the way the shaping works and it comes right to the center of your chest in every size row gauge would matter on this so if you're like oh I don't want to adjust row gauge I want to try to hit row gauge but I've gotten stitch gauge I would say keep needle size change needle material.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:14.799
Row gauge is the most affected by needle material because it's a it's about how that material has grabbed onto the yarn and when it exits um that's what really controls that height it's how it wraps around the needle.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.440
So stitch gauge is often also affected by the exit path by the space between two stitches.
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:30.400
This is so nerdy this is like the nerdiest this is like the most loser conversation but I love it.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:32:02.559
I could put you and me in thisone else has switched off by now so I know you answered one of my questions which is what inspired you to do this so that is um that is so cool because that in in America we have this thing called warm up America which is um uh Afghan squares and they're nine inches high and they're I don't remember how many inches wide and a lot of yarn stores will do that like use up your scrap you donate these and then we the yarn store sews them together into the blankets and it's the same thing.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:11.599
We would take we cut out a piece of cardboard at the yarn store that I used to work in a key piece of cardboard that was the size of the Afghan square.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:22.880
And we had that piece of cardboard on the blocking board and we'd have to like sometimes stretch or like squinch up block to say to shape.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:51.279
Yeah sometimes we would unbind off and just take off a few rows because we're like there's no way yeah it's but uh but that's so Melanie's um shawl as well what they did is that they sorted everything because they received so many triangles the way they resolved that is they just say what small medium and large and then they can and then they can work within that so then they you know you've got enough small ones you've got enough medium ones you've got enough large ones and so you bundle them all up and then that's and then that's good.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:52.799
Brilliant that's how it works.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.279
You know there's less variation within all the large ones so you can still make it work.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:09.519
Yeah that is brilliant it was cool I I I I sort of regret in a way not having all 1500 samples mailed to me but then on the other hand I think I'm probably better off not for it.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:14.319
I'd I'd love to have been able to measure them all myself to be able to get really precise measurements.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:23.839
But yeah it's probably a good thing I didn't that's a good point because the other thing is yeah that's a really good point is how were they measured?
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:34.960
Exactly Patty do you want to do you have you had a question you said just before we came on you said there's there was um a couple of things you wanted to ask me I I don't know first of all I have a question.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:37.200
How do you feel about the word influencer?
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.519
Do you embrace it are you bothered by it?
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:45.680
Do you do you like I know some people are like oh I'm not an influencer I'm a content creator and other people are like no I'm an influencer.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.200
I don't I'm not ashamed of it.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:35:05.039
How do you like um I mean it it's it's interesting where where I I think I think there's good things about being an influencer there's recognition that you can actually influence a conversation and I think that's that's where that's where it becomes interesting and also slightly more uh dangerous territory if you like for me that I I feel like like if if you if you are in a position where you can exert any level of influence then that comes with some sort of responsibility which I don't feel is I don't know I feel I have a complicated yeah I think the first time you popped up in my feed because this is the other question I had was about the crazy algorithm it you know how on threads if a friend of yours comments on something then that person shows up in your feed and a lot of times that's how I I find people I try to get in and get out when it comes to social media because it's not good for my it's not good for me personally because I compare myself to everyone I like that's my own damage like that person's better than me that person's smarter than me that person works harder than me you know it's like that's all my personal damage of some people can just enjoy social media and other people are like I I'm a terrible person.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:28.079
That's what I take away um so I I really I try to like get in do my post and get out but I'll I'll do a quick scroll and I think it was the one of the Shakespeare videos that you did was the first time you know and I think that algorithm delivered that to me because I used to work in theater so I I still have a lot of friends that I follow on theater.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:36:26.639
And so they were like oh algorithm's like it's theater it's knitting here take a look at this lady and I was like oh he funny I like him he funny man I he he made me laugh so um so yeah and then I followed you because I'm like you made me laugh and I thought I I don't know the whole thing about how do you balance I mean this is so new to me this whole concept is so new to me and like one thing I've been noticing is as a knitting teacher it bothers me that I see the what is to me an obvious algorithm hook like stop doing this that's a you know why would you do a make one when you could do this but of course a make one is is a valuable increase that's needed for certain things like you do a make one when changing from rib to stock in it.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:45.039
Because you do think it was I think I've got a video which I've put out a couple of times where I've said I'm sorry but you learned the wrong increase and I've used that because I've because I think I've said as well uh there's something about a cable needle as well where I've done the same thing like you're using a cable needle wrong or something like that.
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:49.519
But yeah and I know I know exactly what you mean come on hit me with a pathy.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:37:16.639
Well so so I know like I've done you know at trade shows I do these classes and they're like here's what you should say you should start with like what you said you've been doing this wrong or uh uh did you know that you know stop doing this do this and I know I could turn my account from you know whatever it is 83,000 to 100 000 overnight if I did some of those algorithm things.
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.639
But as a teacher I can't do it.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:40.480
I cannot say stop doing the make one do this instead because I know that every increase has a purpose and I know that there are times when you need a non-directional increase going from rib to Stocknet you can't do a left lifted or right lifted increase because that can only be working into Stockinet.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:47.920
If you're increasing evenly across a row you might be on a pearl you you don't want to do a knit front back loop because that visually creates a knit followed by a pearl.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:53.440
Anyway I've made the decisions that I made because like as a teacher I can't do paid collabs.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:02.239
I won't I can't do it because I have to if I'm recommending something it's it's got to be because I really genuinely love it.
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:09.280
So do you ever find that you have to make decisions for your job.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:15.679
So my job is a teacher the content creator job is a legitimate job and you're doing a job.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.960
You're creating like you know I mean some of the phone call things you've done freaking crack me up.
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:26.320
I love the Shakespeare stuff I I mean some of those I can't even imagine how long that must take to film.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:38.639
You know and people don't understand like you you just see a 30 second video but I know I mean I guess I know I can guess how much work went into that like a lot.
00:38:38.960 --> 00:39:35.119
Yeah some of some of them some of them some of those reels take six to twelve hours oh my god right of planning shooting cutting recutting yeah that I mean some some of them are really big I have had the occasional success where it's maybe only a couple of hours but yeah you know you're in that ballpark it's a it's a huge amount of investment in a in a video potentially there are there are reels where you have like a freaking costume change you know you've got there's like wigs I mean there's they you know there's props it's a whole it's a whole shebang so if you if have you ever struggled with like do I do I do this thing do I say this thing because I know that's what the algorithm is going to deliver eyeballs but like as a knitter I don't really believe it or not that I don't believe it but like it's like rounding up engage.
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:51.360
I'm like I'm being I'm making a broad statement but if but no but eyeballs don't want nuance so like I know that my posts don't go viral because they're too nuanced and I talk too much and I teach too much basically like what I'm doing now.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:53.039
I'm just literally talking too much.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:40:09.840
But so I how do you how do you balance that I'm fascinated that has been a subtle change for me because I've found I've found increasing discomfort with that kind of negative hook.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.519
That's it's a really specific kind of hook that you're talking about there.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:25.440
But the negative hook where you say it works really well because you want to create the emotional distance between where you are and what I'm about to deliver you.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:41:17.760
But the problem is that that does run totally contrary to my fundamental belief that you should just knit you should learn from what you do and you should broaden your experience in terms of techniques and and I really struggle with the you know that increasingly with the that's where I get I get I'll go back to increasing level of influence the bigger those videos get and you know in a way if they if they hit 10,000 people I'm not so worried at the point where they hit a million people or two million people that's that's like I don't want to have done something which makes people feel too bad or negative about about something that they've done which is connected with knitting and that's and that is a difficulty for me.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:37.119
And so I've I've tried to move away from those negative hooks um I it's not saying I won't use them or I don't use them because they are they are super valuable tools um but they but yeah that that that's one of the that's one of the many things that can keep me awake at night.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:37.599
Yeah.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:57.760
So interesting the way even the way you described it starting with a negative hook because that's the distance between what you felt and what I'm about to deliver that is the difference between a genuine content creator and someone who just slaps a post up like me because I don't give it any thought.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:06.239
It's almost like the amount of thought that I put into building a class curriculum you're literally putting into every post.
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.000
You're really Yeah it it can be you know what what you see is that people just don't care and they scroll on.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:18.079
So that's typically 50% of people will skip it within the first three seconds and it's gone.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:20.960
Like the the the algorithm will shut that down so fast.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:29.440
Oh my God I always look back at that it's like a knitting mistake right you you go back and you look at it you look at the real and you think what did I do wrong about that?
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.199
How am I going to change it next time?
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:39.360
And you can analyze it the data's there you just have to look at it and think how how did that extra yarn over creep into my work?
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:41.039
Why am I so boring?
00:42:42.400 --> 00:43:01.840
I was bummed that you got flack for something and I think that was that that was actually one of the first times I reached out to you I split into your DMs to just be like yeah welcome it's a bummer it's the it's the certificate of you've made it when people get really angry at you.
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:09.199
Yeah and I I can't even remember what it was but I remember thinking oh my god this was so innocuous this was so not offensive.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:17.360
It was either like we were just making a joke or I think you were just you made a joke about something and people did not take it the right way.
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:36.079
Yeah and it you know that that happens and I think that's the that's the difficult thing about about putting yourself out there and being and being someone online and there's a lot of people that say well you know it's that's what you get if you choose to do that you deserve whatever you get for it which I don't really believe.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:41.760
I think there's there's an element of human decency that needs to be respected which isn't respected enough.
00:43:43.920 --> 00:44:28.320
But then and there are like that that's the other flavor of of stuff that's difficult is when something goes um viral and there are there are some other creators like Lisa Kitterking Crochet um and uh Sean Carl at Nittitude both That those creators have helped me quite a lot with the social media side and giving me advice and kind of forewarned me actually about the viral the nature of going viral and you know more than a year ago, just how once that happens and once you go viral, you're going to such an unknown audience, basically all bets are off and people get nasty, just because you're you're starting to interact with people who are a long distance away.
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:39.679
And it's kind of like a it's a taxation, and like that's something as well that I factor into the content that I create is like what levels of risk am I willing to take.
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:51.440
And I've had I've had some bits of experience now where there's a particular kind of content I categorically won't make again because I've had such negative experience as a result of doing it.
00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:03.440
Um so yeah, that's a it's it is a learning process, and I do change what I do a lot um in response to both comments that get back, how people respond to things.
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:06.159
Yeah, it's a there is a lot to it.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:07.840
Thank you for appreciating that, Patty.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:19.440
For not taking it too personally, because I mean I I that is you know definitely something my ADHD brain struggles with about you know, you take things really personally.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:26.239
So like that's it's one of the delightful, delightful um symptoms.
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:34.400
Um I can't remember what they uh what the the official name of it is like I can't remember rejection dysphoria or something.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:40.400
I there's so many delightful names for uh justice sensitivity, that's another delightful symptom of ADHD.
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:48.159
But um good on you for understanding the difference between you as a human and the content you create.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:54.400
In a way, it's easier when I am wearing a costume and a wig because then it's I feel you.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:55.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:56.159
I feel you.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:59.440
Oh, you didn't like Hamlet, that's fine.
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:00.159
Right.
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.400
For me, I'm like, do more theater.
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.320
Um are you a theater fan?
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.639
Is that what could that what made you do that one?
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:08.880
Not massively.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:37.199
Um I don't know where that do you know what that that came from a really dark feeling I was having, and I just I I don't know why, but the um one of my kids was doing Shakespeare at school, and and we were talking about that as a uh just just how that how that phrase appears, how the to be or not to be, and I just thought, well, why isn't there a to knit or not to knit?
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:52.239
And and I I just really wanted to lean into the darkness of that at the time, and that's where that came from, was then just exploring just how dark a passage you could make that and connect that with the mental health aspect of knitting.
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.679
I actually recorded a number of versions of it because again, this is one where it was really important to me to get it right.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:05.519
I recorded it first as just a spoken poem, and I put it as a trial reel and it completely failed.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.199
And I was like, but this matters, I need to do it, I need to do it better.
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:13.679
So I reached out to a theatre friend of mine and I sent it to them and I said, Well, what do you think of this?
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:14.960
They said, You're doing Shakespeare.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:16.800
Where's the white frilly shirt?
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:20.480
So I did it again and I put it out as a trial reel, and it still didn't get there.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.480
And I sent the video and I said, Why doesn't this work?
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:26.159
They said, But it's Shakespeare, you're wearing a frilly shirt, but where's the eye makeup?
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.119
Where's the skull?
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.639
Where's you're trying to communicate something dark, you need to go for it?
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.119
I was like, okay, take three.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:38.400
There was take three, and then take and take four, take three was still too slow.
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.960
So this is where we get into attention deficit of the population.
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:49.440
Version three of that was a slow-paced, measured, dramatic theatrical display.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.760
By the time I got to version four, which is the one that went then started to go viral.
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:57.119
Again, you can hear it when I when I articulate it.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.199
To knit or not to knit, that is the question.
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:05.440
It's fast and it's spoken quickly just to get through the words to keep people's attention.
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:16.480
And but but that was that that that's that's a that's a lesson and a journey, and something that it mattered to me, and it mattered to get it right, and it mattered to me to communicate those darker aspects.
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:20.880
And a lot of people just like, oh, it's funny it's Shakespeare, and and and and off we go.
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:33.440
But to me, it was it was much more important to and and some people reached out really, really touched by the by the resonance both of the original Shakespeare and then also what I tried to recreate.
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:46.400
And that and that's what really then matters is when people reach out and you've actually touched people and actually made that connection with someone who's who's cared about what you've done and and it's made some sort of difference to them.
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:48.719
I know I love it even more.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.159
I'm gonna go back and watch it again.
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:56.400
And this is so this is probably, you know, this is where I I think of content that I think is interesting and nobody else does.
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:06.239
To me, if you did a a reel or a post that was just about like FYI, you want to see how the sausage is made?
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:20.960
And that was like a little clip of all the different versions and how that grew, like the same little, you would take the same opening line and show, I don't know if you saved the old versions, but to me, that would be like I think that stuff is fascinating.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:38.239
I think there would be a deeper appreciation, you know, it wouldn't go viral, but there'd be a deeper appreciation for those that follow you and love you of how much thought and work you put into what you deliver to us that we're like, oh cool, that we like watch for a second, and like that was fun.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:46.960
Next, you know, like the end of the Truman show where they're hanging on to every move of Truman and then they turn it off and they go, What else is on?
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:47.760
You know.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:48.719
Exactly.
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:49.119
Exactly.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:50:03.679
But Patsy, I wanna I wanna talk about I I don't want to lose time to be able to talk about your new book, which I have got a copy of Knitting ER.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:15.360
And I was so I was delighted to receive this book because I mean I I'm fascinated, I'm fascinated about fixing, but also I'm such a visual learner.
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:38.320
Like the way I've learned knitting and so on is by watching videos online, and like I must admit, when it when knitting ER came through the post box, I was expect I wasn't expecting to be able to interpret things that well because drawing of knitting, I've I haven't seen it done brilliantly that many times.
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.960
Like it's not a thing, and I need to see videos of things moving.
00:50:43.199 --> 00:51:04.960
And I would say, before I'm just talking about your book before you get a chance, but I would say actually, before when I then read the book and when I started looking at how you fix stuff, the illustrations and the explanations are phenomenal, and you it does make sense, and actually having things written drawn means they're not wiggling about all over the place.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:05.519
Right.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:15.280
I have one mirror say I don't have to keep hitting pause 10 seconds back to pause 10 seconds back, because I have a still image of what's important.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.000
But can I can I give a shout out to Linda Schmidt, my technical uh illustrator?
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.239
Because I she is so unbelievable.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.480
And I I'm writing a series of blogs about the the visuals behind the book.
00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:35.679
I wrote one about Franklin, I just published one about Anna, the book designer, but the next one is about Linda Schmidt.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:39.039
And this is how I I wrote a blog about how the sausage is made.
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:57.440
I show in this blog that's gonna come out soon photos that I sent to her, then early illustrations that she drew, and then me saying, No, this is this, and she's told me from the very beginning she was nervous about lace, about drawing the lace because she's not really a lace knitter.
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:02.960
So the drawings, if they came to life, you could unravel them.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:05.199
Every stitch is real.
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:12.239
Did she do that by photographing the lace and then working from that as a drawing?
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:13.039
No.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:19.840
So first of all, I photograph every step, but what she does is she's a knitter.
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:26.559
Yeah, she has the photo, but she casts on and she needs to make sure that she understands every trick.
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.519
So in the blog, you're gonna see her knitting.
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:31.039
She goes back and forth.
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:36.000
She finally understood it when she knit with two different colors.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:41.199
She knit the right side of lace in one color and she knit the wrong side of lace in the other color.
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:59.039
Because one of the things that she was having trouble seeing, not being a lace knitter, and I kept kicking the drawings back, was where the yarn over goes and that fact that the decrease isn't the decrease row, isn't the row where the two stitches come together?
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.920
That's the wrong side row where the two stitches come together.
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:02.400
Right.
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:02.719
Yeah.
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:05.840
The decrease row is the single stitch that comes through.
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:16.960
So her desire, the way she ended up doing it is she said, I can't draw the fixes in the lace until I master just drawing the lace.
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:18.960
So not unlike a knitter.
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:21.519
She did with drawing what we do with knitting.
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:23.280
Like, I gotta, I gotta knit it first.
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:24.960
I gotta understand it.
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:32.320
I really wanted people to understand how much work and and how how she just kept fighting to understand it.
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.079
I mean, honestly, that comes across that comes across in spades.
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:38.800
I was I was blown away.
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:43.679
Like this this book, knitting the art, like the quality of the illustration, the photography, obviously.
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:46.800
I mean, and writing's not bad, Patty.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.440
Oh, yeah.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:50.800
Just some good ideas there about how to fix knitting.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.719
But honestly, the the way that the illustrations bring it to life, it's really amazing.
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:56.079
It makes it a very valuable book.
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.320
I'm pretty grateful for you sending it across to me.
00:53:58.559 --> 00:53:59.840
Oh, I'm so glad you like it.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.480
She the other thing she does is she'll know when I'll photograph my hands.
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:08.320
And first of all, she said, no hands in drawing unless you have to have them.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:09.760
Hands are weird.
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:17.920
So one of the things that's great about the illustrations, as opposed to just a video, is there's no handedness here.
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.400
You can't tell is this picking or throwing.
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:25.119
I wanted people to read, follow along with the steps, not just watch and match.
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:32.480
So hopefully you know, you don't want to like you don't want to, you don't want to fix a hole for the first time in your sweater.
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:33.599
No, you want to be a few.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:36.400
The best place to fix it is in a little swatch.
00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:36.719
Yeah.
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:42.960
But the other thing that was really important to me is that the fact that people knit differently.
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:54.800
So it really bummed me out that the only other fix it book that I was able to find when kind of thinking about what I wanted to do with knitting ER is about a 20-year-old book, 22 years old.
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:56.639
And it's just really basic fixes.
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:58.639
It's picking up drop stitches, that kind of stuff.
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:05.440
But right at the beginning, it has a picture of eastern mounted stitches, stitches with the leading leg in the back.
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:11.920
Which by the way, more knitters walk the earth that knit that way than Western knitting.
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:12.639
More knitters.
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:14.559
And it said, Oh, this is wrong.
00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.920
So this is an example of incorrectly mounted stitches.
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.519
Is it so?
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:24.960
Tell me which branch of the knitting police.
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.039
Is it Western centric writer?
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.239
It is not.
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:36.639
So that I say right at the beginning, if if your stitches look like this, don't worry, you will not be abandoned by this book.
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:46.239
So in the fixes, if it matters, like how I'll say, and you you do this at the end if you want your stitches mounted this way.
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:47.920
You do this if you want your stitches.
00:55:48.320 --> 00:56:03.599
I hate that Eastern knitters and combination knitters have to figure everything out on their own versus being included in in books, because there are more knters that walk the earth that knit Eastern than Western.
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:04.719
Yeah.
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:11.760
But to paraphrase an old movie, the places that they knit Eastern, they don't need no stinking patterns.
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.480
So, you know, they knit until something's sweater-shaped.
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:24.559
Yeah, which is you know, that that brings us right back to where we started about the uh where patterns are going and and the extent to which you need to spell things out for people.
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:27.280
Yeah, I mean, that is tricky.
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:45.360
Like, yes, we do say knit two together SSK, but uh that that's a that's a reality of um I don't think it's realistic that that western knitters are ever going to be written as make a right slanting decrease here because that's just too many words.
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:50.159
So the reality is and and and and the you know you use the shorthand for it.
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:50.559
Yeah.
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:59.280
Patsy, if people want to find more out about you, where where would where's the best place for them to go online to to find you or physically?
00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:00.480
What what do people do?
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:08.480
My website is the the the central place for everything, which is just my name, patty lions.com.
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:17.519
So from there you can find the books, the my my knitting school, um, upcoming events like we're gonna be together in Germany.
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:19.599
Yeah, at Munich.
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:20.159
Munich.
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:21.519
I'm very excited about that.
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:23.920
Patty, it's been an absolute delight talking to you.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.920
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.239
Thank you so much for sending me knitting ER book.
00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:29.119
I'm very grateful.
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:30.800
It's been lovely to chat to you.
00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:33.360
Can I ask you one knitting ER question?
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:34.480
Go on.
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:35.039
Okay.
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:40.800
Was there any fix in the book that you were like, damn, I didn't know that?
00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:46.639
Because that's all I I'm always interested to know if there was if there was one that that made you perk up.
00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:49.760
The post the post bind off fixes.
00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:00.000
Ah I was I could not like the fact that you were fixing a hole in lace after like I I read it and I was like, oh, of course, I I get it.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:06.079
But I was like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have thought about how to do a fix post bind off like that.
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.800
That was a that was a surprise to me.
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:09.519
Cool.
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:13.199
And that that's the knitting surgery um chapter where we actually cut.
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:19.199
But I love the the whole fake is as good as fixed chapter, all the post-bind off without cutting.
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:22.719
Because I, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, it's good enough.
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.119
I also think there's a there's a big part of that in life, like just accept it and move on.
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:33.119
That's triage.
00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:33.360
Yeah.
00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:39.840
So in knitting ER, we talk about diagnosis, preventative medicine, and treatment plan, but finally I do say, then there's triage.
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:41.119
Do I even want to fix it?
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:43.760
And that is totally up to you.
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:50.800
Like if you have a mistake under your arm and everyone else is like, why would you fix that?
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:53.360
But it bothers you, fix it.
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:59.760
If you have a mistake right in the middle of your sweater and it doesn't bother you, and people are like, How could you not fix that?
00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:01.039
And you're like, I don't want to.
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:02.079
Then don't fix it.
00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:03.119
It's your sweater.
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.679
Don't let anyone tell you what to do.
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.599
I'm not your mother.
00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.280
Fine, fine words to live by.
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:12.719
Thank you so much, Patty.
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:14.000
It's been an absolute pleasure.
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.480
Oh my god, I could talk to you forever, which clearly you're like, I know, shut up.
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:22.719
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Yarn Library.
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:26.800
If you've enjoyed the conversation, please do follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts.
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:31.280
And if you have a moment to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more people discover the show.
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:38.960
If you have a question, comment, or idea for a future episode, someone you want to hear me interview, email me at podcast at cleavelynits.com.
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:44.639
And if you'd like to see this conversation or watch my longer form videos, head to Clevelandits on YouTube.
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:46.880
I'll be back very soon with another episode.
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.239
Until then, thank you for listening and happy knitting.
