Katie: Hi Luke.
Luke Norton: Bye, KT.
Katie: Um, okay. we'll start with how do we know each other? Luke and I met in 2012, working at a creative agency in London, and we both went on our kind of separate journeys of life and recently reconnected. what have you been to how did we reconnect ⁓ and the fuck are we here?
Luke Norton: I'd been on a bit of a journey. chronically ill in the pandemic with long COVID. I was just kind of in a hole. That meant that had to leave no stone unturned, had to go through all sorts of alternative practitioners, all sorts of different routes and roads to recovery to see which one worked and they all did collectively. realized that because I wasn't suffering from any one thing, I had to make changes in all sorts of different directions. and that led me into something that I've called imagination aid, which is Coaching, I guess, is the easiest way to understand it, but it's a bit deeper and a bit weirder than that. And I'd been doing it in ⁓ ⁓ you saw my first Instagram post and said, I want to do that. And we did And it was amazing.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, that is very true. weirder and deeper is so accurate, but it's brilliant. it's really meaningful and magical. And essentially where we got to was turns out I have quite a few opinions about things. instead just thinking those things and ranting about them every now and again, you can do something about it. And in 2026, it is easy to just order some headphones look like a complete knob ⁓ and give it a go. what we'll to is how this kind of becomes a series of interviews with lots of other people that do amazing, weird and wonderful things that impact you and make you better at work. we have two rules. ⁓ One is you've got to wear a tracksuit. So Luke is ⁓ breaking the rules because he's not wearing a tracksuit. the other is we have to get it in one take because don't how to edit anything. So obviously we spend all our life at work pretty much. Like the ⁓ percentage of time is spent at work. today the majority of businesses are built around ⁓ and there is no business without However, ⁓ the way that we ⁓ measure success, ⁓ and skills in business is largely financial models and Excel spreadsheets ⁓ revenue EBITDA and margin But actually we're missing ⁓ a whole massive chunk of things, which is intelligence and how to navigate people, to get people working really well together, to get collaboration, to make sure people are happy, to make sure that people are thriving. ⁓ And it so fundamental and important and I'm convinced it is, but it's like, why don't we measure that? And it, of course it affects the bottom line, but it's kind of just, oh, you might be good at it, you might not. what, you know, of course there's leadership books and things out there, there's some training, but really how much do you understand yourself and therefore how does that determine how you interact with managed lead? others and it's critical which is kind of a complicated subject but i have a hunch that the deeper you understand yourself, the better you can be at life and jobs and things like that. And then a lot of people are forced by life explore things and go deeper because something happens to you or many things happen to you.
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: in the end, the reward is much higher because you ⁓ can get out of your own way be there for other people in a selfless, way. So what I'm getting to is, I believe that people that have lived a life ⁓ and have had things happen to them and have gone deep try and understand themselves, ultimately, are better at their job, are better people leaders and therefore have a better impact on the bottom line. it's so important. However, what blows my mind is none this is on your LinkedIn. completely separate.
Luke Norton: Yeah, I think it's so true. it makes me think of this idea, My dad's a retired psychiatrist. But when I was recovering, he was introducing this idea to me of the wounded healer, it's that idea that through the process of recovery, whatever it takes, whatever twists and turns you go through, you become uniquely equipped to, quote unquote, heal others because of what you've been through and because of those different obstacles that you've overcome and I think there's an old school camp that leave your personal life at the door you're at work now versus a more holistic and more human centered and more real right because it's like it doesn't stop at the door and you don't you don't change when you walk in and walk out you know it's like you bring all of who you are
Katie: I completely agree. And I think that unless you as a leader understand the entire human, can't do your job properly there is always the reality in the background And that doesn't mean that a business is responsible for things that go on outside of work. However, a human is a human in how you are. the context of what's going on in your life impacts you every day. And unless you can see all of those layers and sort of therefore operate within that, are you doing? when life throws a lot of shit at you, of forced to expand range and you ⁓ can feel deeper than ⁓ ⁓ say the everyday human or you ⁓ are forced to think things in different way. But ironically, I think the people that go through a lot of stuff end up happier, even though maybe what's happened to them is terrible And I'm really interested in what's not on your LinkedIn, but essentially it is, what is your life experience? What is your story? And how does that impact you at work? And how does that make you a better leader, a better human? less about yourself and more there for others. ⁓ And I'm also really interested in... the ways that people can go deeper. what you're doing with imagination aid is awesome and it is something people can do to understand yourself more There are other people that do, all sorts of different coaching using human design there's all of these alternative things out there that no one talks about. it's hidden, not on your LinkedIn, hard to find, but so impactful. ⁓
Luke Norton: it's interesting right? But then when it comes to real life, it's nowhere to be seen, ⁓ my wife got long COVID then so did I can have a job. It might work. I don't know. didn't try it.
Katie: Yeah. Whereas what, what you mean is I've been through some stuff and I've come out the other side and I'm a much better person because of it. And you as a business would get to benefit from that. but it doesn't exist, anywhere. It's like, yes, I've delivered X and Y and 27 years of doing this and this.
Luke Norton: Yeah, definitely.
Katie: And that's our currency. that's how, I mean, what if you did show up to interviews and you were like, these are the four major life things that have happened to me. This is what I have survived. This is my resilience. This is kind of what I've understood about myself. And therefore this is what I can do for other people and for your business. ⁓
Luke Norton: Yeah, I mean, it's a bold, it feels bold at this point in time, right? And I think you're right about the depths and the circumstances, Mine was like rock bottom with a trap door, you know, so I went lower and lower and deeper, and it was in desperation.
Katie: It does, but why? Yeah.
Luke Norton: that I tried different things and they changed my life in immeasurable ways that I won't, we've spoken about before, I bore you with all of them today, but it's like the impact of that in isolated instance, is selflessness. To ⁓ do while doing imagination aid in the depths of my illness and my recovery journey. ⁓
Katie: Yeah.
Luke Norton: because I was getting so much from it. Why? Because I was doing it for free with people that I either liked or respected or believed I could help for hours and hours and hours. was able to contribute something. And that made me reflect on like selflessness, like had I really done anything that was like really and really giving to people before in a, I could probably fudge it and say some of my art was a gift to humanity, but no, like, come on, not really. if I were to open up to a prospective about that, then it's ⁓ you're actually getting way more selfless person than you would have got if you'd tried to hire me pre pandemic.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's totally true. think the more you understand about yourself and the more you process your own stuff, the more you can get out of your own way and genuinely be there for others. and if you think about it, leading people. and leading a team of people is a massive privilege ⁓ And it's huge responsibility that people really don't take seriously. people might be terrible at it, but ⁓ they have a huge of people. The impact on those people could be huge and could be negative, or it could be really, really positive. And there's this whole world there of, well, what are your own human values? And then how do you apply that to work? And it's like wholly unregulated, which is kind of insane if you think about it. then you get back to, will someone who can ⁓ selfless and gets joy from ⁓ others is actual kind of like top of the pyramid or what you should be aiming for? So why aren't we looking for people that have that mindset or have had that life experience. it's like why isn't that the holy grail of the job search? ⁓ right.
Luke Norton: you Yeah, or the job's back, you know, looking for someone that's been through some shit.
Katie: Yeah, looking for someone who's been through some shit. Have you been traumatized? Have you wounded? Have you, you figured it out? ⁓ And ⁓ it coming for everybody is just at different times, I think. ⁓ And in way, feel lucky that I was forced to kind of deal with some things early on in life because I think it frees you up. to be liberated and just get on with things and show up with a good intention for other people. Would I wish all of these things on other people? No, but I also wouldn't change a thing.
Luke Norton: Mm-hmm. Yeah, same, same. Yeah. was it was for me being sick. It was it was net positive it the best thing that that happened to me for sure.
Katie: which sounds crazy to be like getting long COVID and being completely debilitated was the best thing that happened to me.
Luke Norton: Yeah. I think would surprise themselves if they were any... any kind of situation like that, know, that required resolve. ⁓ You'd be surprised what you've got in the tank, really.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, well, we can overcome anything. It's just that not everybody has stuff thrown at them. So then if you don't, you probably need to be intentional and curious about how you truly understand yourself so that you can be better for others, which again, sounds really deep and kind of spiritual and a bit woo woo But it's what makes people better humans. So yeah, I think I can't get my head around why this isn't more mainstream, why we don't talk about this more, why this isn't kind of measured by business. And I guess I'm on a mission to try and uncover ways that people go deeper, the experiences that people have had that have made them better ⁓ and that happens.
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: we're definitely in a world where obviously AI is taking over. There's so much going on in the Nothing is as it used to be. Structures are falling apart. People don't really have things to cling onto. ⁓ And I think it ⁓ is difficult to deal with life. that people are starting to talk more about, you know, emotion, feelings, challenges, you know, that kind of thing, but it still hasn't really hit the business world in, a formal way where it is, we really look at kind of people and people intelligence and how you navigate people and dynamics to have a positive impact on others and therefore has a positive impact on business. I think it's taboo. think it's getting more, more every day. ⁓ it feels really personal. I think that you go and explore stuff yourself and it's not really the done thing to kind of talk about it openly. but I, I've done the same thing as in like, there's lots of things that I've explored, like you did that kind of like alternative ways to understand yourself, that in the end make you a happier person. And, know, I've got a disabled son who's seven years old. He doesn't walk or talk. He's the most amazing ⁓ person And ⁓ in could have prepared me for having a disabled child. But that doesn't up ⁓ on ⁓ my ⁓ ⁓ the or of getting to being seven years into parenting a disabled child, there's so much depth in that. ⁓ it's definitely not my LinkedIn. I'm 12 years sober. That's not on my LinkedIn. There's all of this richness that me who I am or you who you are ⁓ that kind of ⁓ unsaid. I think both of those things are the best things that have happened me and really shaped it's so hard to explain. ⁓
Luke Norton: it probably is a bit of like the vulnerability thing, you know, because it's going deeper than just saying the husband, know, is saying, yeah.
Katie: Mm. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's more unique, right? A father, a husband, you know, all of those things are kind of expected.
Luke Norton: Yeah. Yeah
Katie: Recovering from deep sickness is not an everyday thing to put on there. 12 years sober, not something you see every day as a descriptor. But it says so much about you.
Luke Norton: Yeah. Yeah. I think, definitely. I think for me, it's like, maybe there's a fear of judgment Yeah, I feel like if I were to put it there, what like what would that say?
Katie: ⁓ I think the point is ⁓ you've been through ⁓ you a ⁓ person and it makes a better employee and you will contribute better to a business. I think that's the point is that it's the flip, it's the reverse of what happens. It's that by going through all of that, you have extended your like human range ⁓ in... ⁓
Luke Norton: Mm. Hmm
Katie: a huge way, which is a massive benefit to a company, a team of people, all of those things. It's just that the world doesn't necessarily it like that. And that should be seeking like depth and life experience from people because that's where the real benefit is. So it's how we make it more normalized to explain or recognize
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: life experience and depth of humanity as a quality within business that drives commercial results, it's almost the most important unique skill there is, but we don't talk about it. And we don't even know how to talk about it or recognize it or measure it.
Luke Norton: Hmm. know, or find it if everyone's hiding it away. Like, you know, as a pre pre requisite, we want we want these people with diverse and difficult stories, you know, things that they've overcome obstacles that they've that they've beaten or challenges that they still deal with, you know, it's not it's not one and done type of thing.
Katie: Or find it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like looking for the diamonds in the rough kind of thing. it's also, I think people feel levels of shame or kind of embarrassment when actually it should be real pride and you have a lot to offer. It's just that the way we talk about it today not really structured for that. But I guess this is what this is all about. So what I want to do is start a podcast series called
Luke Norton: Hmm.
Katie: the work therapy Sunday sessions. have to be on a Sunday. But is all about people sharing stories ⁓ and bringing back to how does that impact them ⁓ at work. think that's the bit I'm interested in. Obviously there's a load of... you know, life stories out there, but it's rarely talked about how does that then impact you at work? How does that then make you a better leader? How does that help? does going deep within yourself and doing some ⁓ slightly woo woo stuff actually make you a better, happier person? And how does being a better, happier person make you contribute better to a business? I just. put this on the internet and start talking about it and find other people that want to talk about it. So that's what I'm going to do.
Luke Norton: amazing. We're all people, aren't we, at the end of the day? And it's like, yeah, I think the framing needs to shift to... ⁓
Katie: Yeah, it needs to be more acceptable to celebrate what you have achieved in difficult circumstances as a human. Well, ⁓ world's getting more and more complicated and every which way you look. So ⁓ it's to become more and more important to navigate people and the dynamics and the ever changing kind of feelings that come with everything. And I think unless we can level up on our kind of people intelligence or human intelligence ⁓ at we're fucked.
Luke Norton: Definitely. Let's
Katie: So let's change it. Let's change it. What is not on my LinkedIn? That I am the mother of a seven year old disabled boy. I also have a daughter. But being the parent of a disabled child is a pretty hardcore journey and skill that doesn't feature on my LinkedIn. Also, I'm 12 years sober. That's a pretty big deal. Doesn't feature on my LinkedIn. And I think all of those things make me who I am. I know I'm a massive part of how I show up every day, but they're nowhere to be seen unless I volunteer that information to people.
Luke Norton: And how would it feel to put that information on there, do you think?
Katie: think it would need to be framed in the right way. So that's where we need LinkedIn's help to reframe, you know, how do you take things that are perceived as troubles or negative things or life experience? How do you flip that into the bravery, the strength, the all of the great things that come out of those things? to demonstrate your human powers, essentially. I think it is the reframing, it's the where does it live in how we talk about ourselves in a professional environment and can it become more every day to celebrate the amazing things that people ⁓ do and learn because it is who you are. And actually, the more you've overcome, probably the more of a unique person are. And other people get to benefit from that if you have the balls to share it. Yeah, can handle sensitive situations, can handle human emotion, can understand complex individuals, know, break down situations ⁓ get good results quickly, can kind of have tough conversations and get good results, can handle sensitive dynamics ⁓ and...
Luke Norton: Mmm.
Katie: make sure everyone ends up happy. I mean, there's, there's so much kind of uniqueness to it. If I go back to work is all about people and it is all about humans. Humans are the most like unpredictable, nuanced, complex kind of like species on earth. Yeah. In a work environment, we talk about revenue and EBITDA and margins, not people intelligence and how you navigate people. another layer to that is. what people go through in life, help them explore their own kind of range of human intelligence and therefore their brilliance at kind of people navigation. But we don't talk about it anywhere, anywhere at all, not on LinkedIn, not the done thing to talk about. It's the last thing you find out about people.
Luke Norton: Yeah. That's just a reality that we're entering into, you know, we're entering into a more nuanced, more human era for our own sakes and for our own sanity, you know, it's what needs to happen.
Katie: Yeah. And I do think that the businesses and teams that can really crack everybody, bringing their whole self to work, feeling comfortable being themselves, celebrating the human side of things and navigating that altogether in a very selfless, open way will be the ones that succeed the most. But it's like, how do I prove that? I need to prove that.
Luke Norton: Yeah, I think just do it by walking the talk, you know.
Katie: Yeah, I'm gonna walk the talk.
Luke Norton: Bye, KT.
Katie: Um, okay. we'll start with how do we know each other? Luke and I met in 2012, working at a creative agency in London, and we both went on our kind of separate journeys of life and recently reconnected. what have you been to how did we reconnect ⁓ and the fuck are we here?
Luke Norton: I'd been on a bit of a journey. chronically ill in the pandemic with long COVID. I was just kind of in a hole. That meant that had to leave no stone unturned, had to go through all sorts of alternative practitioners, all sorts of different routes and roads to recovery to see which one worked and they all did collectively. realized that because I wasn't suffering from any one thing, I had to make changes in all sorts of different directions. and that led me into something that I've called imagination aid, which is Coaching, I guess, is the easiest way to understand it, but it's a bit deeper and a bit weirder than that. And I'd been doing it in ⁓ ⁓ you saw my first Instagram post and said, I want to do that. And we did And it was amazing.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, that is very true. weirder and deeper is so accurate, but it's brilliant. it's really meaningful and magical. And essentially where we got to was turns out I have quite a few opinions about things. instead just thinking those things and ranting about them every now and again, you can do something about it. And in 2026, it is easy to just order some headphones look like a complete knob ⁓ and give it a go. what we'll to is how this kind of becomes a series of interviews with lots of other people that do amazing, weird and wonderful things that impact you and make you better at work. we have two rules. ⁓ One is you've got to wear a tracksuit. So Luke is ⁓ breaking the rules because he's not wearing a tracksuit. the other is we have to get it in one take because don't how to edit anything. So obviously we spend all our life at work pretty much. Like the ⁓ percentage of time is spent at work. today the majority of businesses are built around ⁓ and there is no business without However, ⁓ the way that we ⁓ measure success, ⁓ and skills in business is largely financial models and Excel spreadsheets ⁓ revenue EBITDA and margin But actually we're missing ⁓ a whole massive chunk of things, which is intelligence and how to navigate people, to get people working really well together, to get collaboration, to make sure people are happy, to make sure that people are thriving. ⁓ And it so fundamental and important and I'm convinced it is, but it's like, why don't we measure that? And it, of course it affects the bottom line, but it's kind of just, oh, you might be good at it, you might not. what, you know, of course there's leadership books and things out there, there's some training, but really how much do you understand yourself and therefore how does that determine how you interact with managed lead? others and it's critical which is kind of a complicated subject but i have a hunch that the deeper you understand yourself, the better you can be at life and jobs and things like that. And then a lot of people are forced by life explore things and go deeper because something happens to you or many things happen to you.
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: in the end, the reward is much higher because you ⁓ can get out of your own way be there for other people in a selfless, way. So what I'm getting to is, I believe that people that have lived a life ⁓ and have had things happen to them and have gone deep try and understand themselves, ultimately, are better at their job, are better people leaders and therefore have a better impact on the bottom line. it's so important. However, what blows my mind is none this is on your LinkedIn. completely separate.
Luke Norton: Yeah, I think it's so true. it makes me think of this idea, My dad's a retired psychiatrist. But when I was recovering, he was introducing this idea to me of the wounded healer, it's that idea that through the process of recovery, whatever it takes, whatever twists and turns you go through, you become uniquely equipped to, quote unquote, heal others because of what you've been through and because of those different obstacles that you've overcome and I think there's an old school camp that leave your personal life at the door you're at work now versus a more holistic and more human centered and more real right because it's like it doesn't stop at the door and you don't you don't change when you walk in and walk out you know it's like you bring all of who you are
Katie: I completely agree. And I think that unless you as a leader understand the entire human, can't do your job properly there is always the reality in the background And that doesn't mean that a business is responsible for things that go on outside of work. However, a human is a human in how you are. the context of what's going on in your life impacts you every day. And unless you can see all of those layers and sort of therefore operate within that, are you doing? when life throws a lot of shit at you, of forced to expand range and you ⁓ can feel deeper than ⁓ ⁓ say the everyday human or you ⁓ are forced to think things in different way. But ironically, I think the people that go through a lot of stuff end up happier, even though maybe what's happened to them is terrible And I'm really interested in what's not on your LinkedIn, but essentially it is, what is your life experience? What is your story? And how does that impact you at work? And how does that make you a better leader, a better human? less about yourself and more there for others. ⁓ And I'm also really interested in... the ways that people can go deeper. what you're doing with imagination aid is awesome and it is something people can do to understand yourself more There are other people that do, all sorts of different coaching using human design there's all of these alternative things out there that no one talks about. it's hidden, not on your LinkedIn, hard to find, but so impactful. ⁓
Luke Norton: it's interesting right? But then when it comes to real life, it's nowhere to be seen, ⁓ my wife got long COVID then so did I can have a job. It might work. I don't know. didn't try it.
Katie: Yeah. Whereas what, what you mean is I've been through some stuff and I've come out the other side and I'm a much better person because of it. And you as a business would get to benefit from that. but it doesn't exist, anywhere. It's like, yes, I've delivered X and Y and 27 years of doing this and this.
Luke Norton: Yeah, definitely.
Katie: And that's our currency. that's how, I mean, what if you did show up to interviews and you were like, these are the four major life things that have happened to me. This is what I have survived. This is my resilience. This is kind of what I've understood about myself. And therefore this is what I can do for other people and for your business. ⁓
Luke Norton: Yeah, I mean, it's a bold, it feels bold at this point in time, right? And I think you're right about the depths and the circumstances, Mine was like rock bottom with a trap door, you know, so I went lower and lower and deeper, and it was in desperation.
Katie: It does, but why? Yeah.
Luke Norton: that I tried different things and they changed my life in immeasurable ways that I won't, we've spoken about before, I bore you with all of them today, but it's like the impact of that in isolated instance, is selflessness. To ⁓ do while doing imagination aid in the depths of my illness and my recovery journey. ⁓
Katie: Yeah.
Luke Norton: because I was getting so much from it. Why? Because I was doing it for free with people that I either liked or respected or believed I could help for hours and hours and hours. was able to contribute something. And that made me reflect on like selflessness, like had I really done anything that was like really and really giving to people before in a, I could probably fudge it and say some of my art was a gift to humanity, but no, like, come on, not really. if I were to open up to a prospective about that, then it's ⁓ you're actually getting way more selfless person than you would have got if you'd tried to hire me pre pandemic.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's totally true. think the more you understand about yourself and the more you process your own stuff, the more you can get out of your own way and genuinely be there for others. and if you think about it, leading people. and leading a team of people is a massive privilege ⁓ And it's huge responsibility that people really don't take seriously. people might be terrible at it, but ⁓ they have a huge of people. The impact on those people could be huge and could be negative, or it could be really, really positive. And there's this whole world there of, well, what are your own human values? And then how do you apply that to work? And it's like wholly unregulated, which is kind of insane if you think about it. then you get back to, will someone who can ⁓ selfless and gets joy from ⁓ others is actual kind of like top of the pyramid or what you should be aiming for? So why aren't we looking for people that have that mindset or have had that life experience. it's like why isn't that the holy grail of the job search? ⁓ right.
Luke Norton: you Yeah, or the job's back, you know, looking for someone that's been through some shit.
Katie: Yeah, looking for someone who's been through some shit. Have you been traumatized? Have you wounded? Have you, you figured it out? ⁓ And ⁓ it coming for everybody is just at different times, I think. ⁓ And in way, feel lucky that I was forced to kind of deal with some things early on in life because I think it frees you up. to be liberated and just get on with things and show up with a good intention for other people. Would I wish all of these things on other people? No, but I also wouldn't change a thing.
Luke Norton: Mm-hmm. Yeah, same, same. Yeah. was it was for me being sick. It was it was net positive it the best thing that that happened to me for sure.
Katie: which sounds crazy to be like getting long COVID and being completely debilitated was the best thing that happened to me.
Luke Norton: Yeah. I think would surprise themselves if they were any... any kind of situation like that, know, that required resolve. ⁓ You'd be surprised what you've got in the tank, really.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, well, we can overcome anything. It's just that not everybody has stuff thrown at them. So then if you don't, you probably need to be intentional and curious about how you truly understand yourself so that you can be better for others, which again, sounds really deep and kind of spiritual and a bit woo woo But it's what makes people better humans. So yeah, I think I can't get my head around why this isn't more mainstream, why we don't talk about this more, why this isn't kind of measured by business. And I guess I'm on a mission to try and uncover ways that people go deeper, the experiences that people have had that have made them better ⁓ and that happens.
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: we're definitely in a world where obviously AI is taking over. There's so much going on in the Nothing is as it used to be. Structures are falling apart. People don't really have things to cling onto. ⁓ And I think it ⁓ is difficult to deal with life. that people are starting to talk more about, you know, emotion, feelings, challenges, you know, that kind of thing, but it still hasn't really hit the business world in, a formal way where it is, we really look at kind of people and people intelligence and how you navigate people and dynamics to have a positive impact on others and therefore has a positive impact on business. I think it's taboo. think it's getting more, more every day. ⁓ it feels really personal. I think that you go and explore stuff yourself and it's not really the done thing to kind of talk about it openly. but I, I've done the same thing as in like, there's lots of things that I've explored, like you did that kind of like alternative ways to understand yourself, that in the end make you a happier person. And, know, I've got a disabled son who's seven years old. He doesn't walk or talk. He's the most amazing ⁓ person And ⁓ in could have prepared me for having a disabled child. But that doesn't up ⁓ on ⁓ my ⁓ ⁓ the or of getting to being seven years into parenting a disabled child, there's so much depth in that. ⁓ it's definitely not my LinkedIn. I'm 12 years sober. That's not on my LinkedIn. There's all of this richness that me who I am or you who you are ⁓ that kind of ⁓ unsaid. I think both of those things are the best things that have happened me and really shaped it's so hard to explain. ⁓
Luke Norton: it probably is a bit of like the vulnerability thing, you know, because it's going deeper than just saying the husband, know, is saying, yeah.
Katie: Mm. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's more unique, right? A father, a husband, you know, all of those things are kind of expected.
Luke Norton: Yeah. Yeah
Katie: Recovering from deep sickness is not an everyday thing to put on there. 12 years sober, not something you see every day as a descriptor. But it says so much about you.
Luke Norton: Yeah. Yeah. I think, definitely. I think for me, it's like, maybe there's a fear of judgment Yeah, I feel like if I were to put it there, what like what would that say?
Katie: ⁓ I think the point is ⁓ you've been through ⁓ you a ⁓ person and it makes a better employee and you will contribute better to a business. I think that's the point is that it's the flip, it's the reverse of what happens. It's that by going through all of that, you have extended your like human range ⁓ in... ⁓
Luke Norton: Mm. Hmm
Katie: a huge way, which is a massive benefit to a company, a team of people, all of those things. It's just that the world doesn't necessarily it like that. And that should be seeking like depth and life experience from people because that's where the real benefit is. So it's how we make it more normalized to explain or recognize
Luke Norton: Yeah.
Katie: life experience and depth of humanity as a quality within business that drives commercial results, it's almost the most important unique skill there is, but we don't talk about it. And we don't even know how to talk about it or recognize it or measure it.
Luke Norton: Hmm. know, or find it if everyone's hiding it away. Like, you know, as a pre pre requisite, we want we want these people with diverse and difficult stories, you know, things that they've overcome obstacles that they've that they've beaten or challenges that they still deal with, you know, it's not it's not one and done type of thing.
Katie: Or find it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like looking for the diamonds in the rough kind of thing. it's also, I think people feel levels of shame or kind of embarrassment when actually it should be real pride and you have a lot to offer. It's just that the way we talk about it today not really structured for that. But I guess this is what this is all about. So what I want to do is start a podcast series called
Luke Norton: Hmm.
Katie: the work therapy Sunday sessions. have to be on a Sunday. But is all about people sharing stories ⁓ and bringing back to how does that impact them ⁓ at work. think that's the bit I'm interested in. Obviously there's a load of... you know, life stories out there, but it's rarely talked about how does that then impact you at work? How does that then make you a better leader? How does that help? does going deep within yourself and doing some ⁓ slightly woo woo stuff actually make you a better, happier person? And how does being a better, happier person make you contribute better to a business? I just. put this on the internet and start talking about it and find other people that want to talk about it. So that's what I'm going to do.
Luke Norton: amazing. We're all people, aren't we, at the end of the day? And it's like, yeah, I think the framing needs to shift to... ⁓
Katie: Yeah, it needs to be more acceptable to celebrate what you have achieved in difficult circumstances as a human. Well, ⁓ world's getting more and more complicated and every which way you look. So ⁓ it's to become more and more important to navigate people and the dynamics and the ever changing kind of feelings that come with everything. And I think unless we can level up on our kind of people intelligence or human intelligence ⁓ at we're fucked.
Luke Norton: Definitely. Let's
Katie: So let's change it. Let's change it. What is not on my LinkedIn? That I am the mother of a seven year old disabled boy. I also have a daughter. But being the parent of a disabled child is a pretty hardcore journey and skill that doesn't feature on my LinkedIn. Also, I'm 12 years sober. That's a pretty big deal. Doesn't feature on my LinkedIn. And I think all of those things make me who I am. I know I'm a massive part of how I show up every day, but they're nowhere to be seen unless I volunteer that information to people.
Luke Norton: And how would it feel to put that information on there, do you think?
Katie: think it would need to be framed in the right way. So that's where we need LinkedIn's help to reframe, you know, how do you take things that are perceived as troubles or negative things or life experience? How do you flip that into the bravery, the strength, the all of the great things that come out of those things? to demonstrate your human powers, essentially. I think it is the reframing, it's the where does it live in how we talk about ourselves in a professional environment and can it become more every day to celebrate the amazing things that people ⁓ do and learn because it is who you are. And actually, the more you've overcome, probably the more of a unique person are. And other people get to benefit from that if you have the balls to share it. Yeah, can handle sensitive situations, can handle human emotion, can understand complex individuals, know, break down situations ⁓ get good results quickly, can kind of have tough conversations and get good results, can handle sensitive dynamics ⁓ and...
Luke Norton: Mmm.
Katie: make sure everyone ends up happy. I mean, there's, there's so much kind of uniqueness to it. If I go back to work is all about people and it is all about humans. Humans are the most like unpredictable, nuanced, complex kind of like species on earth. Yeah. In a work environment, we talk about revenue and EBITDA and margins, not people intelligence and how you navigate people. another layer to that is. what people go through in life, help them explore their own kind of range of human intelligence and therefore their brilliance at kind of people navigation. But we don't talk about it anywhere, anywhere at all, not on LinkedIn, not the done thing to talk about. It's the last thing you find out about people.
Luke Norton: Yeah. That's just a reality that we're entering into, you know, we're entering into a more nuanced, more human era for our own sakes and for our own sanity, you know, it's what needs to happen.
Katie: Yeah. And I do think that the businesses and teams that can really crack everybody, bringing their whole self to work, feeling comfortable being themselves, celebrating the human side of things and navigating that altogether in a very selfless, open way will be the ones that succeed the most. But it's like, how do I prove that? I need to prove that.
Luke Norton: Yeah, I think just do it by walking the talk, you know.
Katie: Yeah, I'm gonna walk the talk.
