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Alona Pulde: Hey there. We'd love for you to hit that subscribe button by subscribing, you're helping us spread the word and connect with more amazing people like you.
Host: Welcome to we Be Parents, where parent doctors, Matthew Letterman, and Alona Pulde, explore current parenting topics, share stories, and help bring families closer together.
Alona Pulde: Welcome to WeBe parents, where we explore the joys and challenges of parenting and help families grow closer together. I'm Dr. Alona Poe. And
Matthew Lederman: hi, I'm Dr. Matthew Letterman,
Alona Pulde: and we are excited to be here. Today we're going to be talking about a parenting challenge that doesn't get nearly enough attention what happens when we start to lose ourselves in our children's activities.
If you've ever introduced yourself as a soccer dad or dance mom [00:01:00] and realize you're not sure who you are beyond that role, this episode is for you.
Matthew Lederman: But before we get started, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. We tackle real everyday parenting challenges every week, and we want you to be part of this journey with us.
So please subscribe now so you never miss an episode.
Alona Pulde: So how you doing, Matt?
Matthew Lederman: I am doing well. I'm doing well. I'm on a improv kick these days, so I've been, I've been improving by myself with the kids randomly. I don't know why, but there's something fun about this play and, and, and it's actually ties into this episode a little bit without finding my own play versus just playing with the children.
Alona Pulde: Yes. I imagine that feels really great on many levels.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. I mean, have you ever been the, the parent who gets too caught up in. The kids' activities, would you ever identify or,
Alona Pulde: or am I now
Matthew Lederman: I'm, I'm giving you a little, a little [00:02:00] out, but you, you know, have, have you ever identified? Yeah, I think it's not like we are or we aren't, but sometimes we can really identify as that, as that parent,
Alona Pulde: when I said.
Initially in the introduction, this episode is for you. I really meant for me, um, because yes, I, in, in fact, so our daughters are 11 and 13 and very much into musical theater and, and. I love musical theater. Um, it's my guilty pleasure. If I had any talent at all, I would be a theater actress. Um, sadly, I do not.
So I am living. You have talent. Come on. Not that realm. So I am living vicariously through my daughters who got the nudge. From me to explore musical theater and I'm really excited that they are, [00:03:00] um, loving it of their own volition, but I can definitely relate to pushing them in that direction. In fact, I remember, uh, our little one, Jordan at one point didn't wanna do it and.
I know how much she does not like doing sports. And so I said, oh yeah, no problem Jordan. Let's quit drama and pick a sport you wanna do. And I remember her face, she looked at me, her face fell and begrudgingly, she said, fine, I'll do theater. So I knew where that was headed, I knew how that was gonna end up.
Um, and it was. I had, I, if I reflect back on it, I think there was a lack of differentiation about what I wanted for her and what I kind of wanted for myself. So yes, I have [00:04:00] been there. I am there. Um, and this is a very relevant topic for me.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, and it can happen a lot. It can happen for. Academics. It can happen for sports, it can happen for other extracurriculars.
For me, you know, sports was never, in fact, I was happy when we had two girls. 'cause I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have to teach 'em how to catch a baseball, which, I mean, and I have these horrific memories from, from gym class. And I was on the softball team and the, the what? The part of the field where you don't ever get the ball.
And I was just constantly begging. God to not have a, a, a pop fly out to me because I would get under it and I'd be like, I got it. I got it. And then it'd go right over my head. Everybody's yelling at me. So I was, thank God I don't have to, so I'm not the guy that's like teaching their kids and living through their baseball or football or basketball.
In fact, karate was something I did and I really excelled in karate. But we tried [00:05:00] to get the kids into jujitsu, uh, jiujitsu. And that lasted about 20 minutes.
Alona Pulde: You know, the first time they were pinned down, they're, and we're done.
Matthew Lederman: Exactly. They're like, we have to wrestle and these suits are ugly and Yes. And I don't want to be, these people are sweating.
So that, that lasted about 20 minutes. So anyway, you know, I don't have the, the, some of the, the same challenges, but I can definitely relate. And then even academics, you know, the, the. You know, helping kids do something and you're treating it like it, you know, a project's gonna be, you know, part of the NASA space launch versus like, it's just, you know, a a a third grade project.
Third grade project. Exactly. So, and I definitely heard the kids say, dad, it's good enough. And I'm keep going. I'm like, if you just do this, dad, it's good enough. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. That's when I know I'm slipping into that other role.
Alona Pulde: Well, that I, that is exactly what we're talking about today because it really does start with good intentions.
We all [00:06:00] have these great intentions. We love our children. We want them to succeed, and we invest the time, energy, and emotions into their activities. I think that the challenge is that over time it's almost like something shifts, our own sense of identity starts to get wrapped up in their journey, and that's especially so if we in any way, shape, or form resonate with the direction that they chose.
So for example, with me in theater, or if you are a sports parent and your children are in sports. Right. That resonates with you so that enmeshment becomes even easier because there's a joy in living vicariously through them. So then we become not just parents supporting a child who plays soccer, but we become the soccer dad or the soccer mom.[00:07:00]
There are challenges with that. Not, not only in the present, but also in the future. They grow up, they quit, they move on. They don't wanna do it anymore and or they do wanna do it even, but they're not at home doing it anymore. You know, they're often college or living their lives doing it. And we've spent so much time making our identity, their identity, that when they leave, we feel completely lost.
So that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Today we're gonna be exploring why this happens, how it impacts both us and our kids, and how we can find balance while still being amazing, supporting supportive parents.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, and it doesn't so much, uh, matter, just, you know, you're trying to help the kids.
There's a part of you that's excited by it. I think there's, there's a balance. Just like everything. When I was a kid, [00:08:00] I would try something. If it got hard, I would quit. And I think having some level of, of parent parental encouragement to try and stick that out a little bit, to build a little more resilience for things that don't always come easy.
It's really important. But then if you go to the other extreme. You take the fun out of it and the kids lose their natural connection to the joy of doing it, and they start hearing just the press, feeling the pressure from the parent. So Kylie, our 13-year-old, loves practicing for her play. I. But if we made her practice or had be a certain amount of time or a certain frequency versus asking her, Hey, do you feel ready?
And when you practice, how do you feel when you're up in that stage and you know all your lines and it comes easily. And then they've even said to us, when I know all my lines, dad, then I can really make them, you know, the, the motions of my face and my body and the dancing I can focus on more. But they're connecting to that on their own.
So I think there's this balance of, hey. When are you gonna [00:09:00] practice? Or how are you gonna be prepared and have, but then have them do it in a way that works for them versus us having some rigid, you know, even shows up in the, the homework battles. You've, you've definitely navigated those. I, I thought quite well.
But there was the party you, that you academics meant something to you, which was different than each kid and Kylie and how she feels about academics and Jordan, how she feels and how do we push. You know, we could wear, instead of being the soccer mom or the basketball dad, we could be that kid with, you know, the, A student, right?
Or my kids go into an Ivy League college, so we live through them. Even, we don't even know if they want to go. Or they don't even know. They just, you've been telling them for so long, all of a sudden they wanna go.
Commercial Break
Matthew Lederman: This episode of Webe Parents is brought to you by Webe, calm the child, calmer, designed by doctors and loved by parents
Alona Pulde: struggling with bedtime routines or managing your child's anxiety.
Webe Calm, transforms deep [00:10:00] breathing into a fun and engaging activity, helping kids find their inner calm, perfect for bedtime, stressful moments, or anytime your child needs a little extra help to stay calm. Visit webe calm.com to learn more and bring tranquility to your family. We be calm because we be in this together.
You know, your hopes and your dreams for what your child can become and what can be the opportunities that are afforded to them. You know, I relate to your story of I dabbled in a lot of things as a kid too. Dance and karate and piano and, um, a a whole bunch of stuff and, and I would do it for a little while and they get bored and quit, and I have a lot of regret for that.
As an adult now, you know when I sit in a piano and I can play some basic tunes, but I don't really play piano and I don't play any [00:11:00] other instrument and I don't really play a sport and there was never something that I mastered that I can enjoy today. Um, and so. That adds that extra layer of pressure where I don't want the girls to end up later on saying, oh, why didn't somebody kind of push me in this direction?
Or really, uh, help me stay focused in what I was doing? Why, you know, why did they let me just quit and move on?
Matthew Lederman: Well, I think the focus though. Can be around helping you see the value of doing it versus the focus being rigid rules of how to practice. Like we weren't rigid with Kylie that you know, you have to do homework in this.
In fact, we could probably have a whole other episode on homework, but we wanted to say, Hey, if you're going to a school that requires homework, we make some agreements. How do we navigate that? Even if we go to a school that doesn't require [00:12:00] homework or as much homework, how do we navigate that? And Kylie.
I remember thinking, okay, she's not, she's more interested in the arts. She loves drawing and she loves singing and theater and music, and I didn't really think of her as being interested in academics as much, and Jordan was excelling more in academics and then it sort of switched on their own where Kylie was feeling excited to be able to do math and know how to do it and help her friends do it.
So she all of a sudden chose on her own to learn it and spend more time on it. Whereas Jordan, it got a little bit more work and she. Sort of decreased, you know, her, her efforts on that, but actually started doing more in the acting and theater. So it's, it's trying to, it's that balance of parenting, I think is most important, is how much to how much push, how much pull, how much support, how much do you help them see the future and connect to their own values.
Helping them identify what their values even are.
Alona Pulde: I think that is absolutely key, is really helping them connect to [00:13:00] their own internal barometer around how they wanna show up and what they want for themselves, and helping them maintain that vision. Of, you know, future potential while also being present to their momentary experience.
And it's funny that you say that with Kylie around homework. How many homework battles did you know we have until kind of navigating that balance and then. Today, the tables have turned where sometimes I see her working on stuff. I'm like, Kylie, that's good. Enough, enough you can put it away. You've, you dedicated so much time.
No, no mom, I really wanna finish it and I want it to be like this. Um, which is, you know, kind of cool seeing her push herself because that matters to her. So, absolutely. I love that notion of, um. Being connected to your own values. And I think [00:14:00] that's an important, uh, takeaway for parents too, because when parenting becomes your identity, there are a few issues that become.
Really profound for parents, in essence, losing ourselves In our child's pursuits, there's the proxy identity trap. Parents start living through their child's activities, feeling their children's victories is, and failures as if they're their own. And you know that's, oh, I have the A student, my child is a Harvard student or,
Matthew Lederman: or gifted.
They're in the gifted or the honors program I.
Alona Pulde: Right. Or my, so my daughter is a soccer pro or whatever, you know, my daughter's featuring on Broadway. And you really start owning that identity as your own.
Matthew Lederman: And it's hard, I [00:15:00] imagine, to differentiate between whether you're sharing that because you're proud.
Or are you sharing that because it gives you a sense of it, uh, self-worth as well, like if your worth is sort of tied into the child's success. Yes. And your competence as a parent is tied, tied into your child's accomplishments, or is it more No, I'm really proud. This makes them super happy and they're so excited and so fun, and I just love how happy they are.
Yes. That's about celebrating your child. The first is more where you're starting to, to en mesh a little bit.
Alona Pulde: Yes. And that's, that really sends you into an emotional rollercoaster too, because as long as they're doing well, you are doing well. But if they start to not do so well, then all of a sudden that's a reflection on you as well.
And you have that, you know, with a gifted child who is suddenly struggling academically. The parents are almost embarrassed by that. How could their bright child be struggling? [00:16:00] Or, uh, your child gets on stage and messes up completely and you're that parent whose child messed up. Um,
Matthew Lederman: it's like, do you have a static definition of your child or is it dynamic?
In nonviolent communication, we talk about labels being static versus how they are in the moment is dynamic, so, mm-hmm. If you think you have an intelligent child, that's a static definition. It's almost like a label versus I have a child who is really enjoying math right now, or I have a child that seems to have algebra just flowing super easily for them in this moment, but I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
And it's, and I have a child who really enjoys. This subject versus I have a, I have a, a, an, uh, fantastic. My child's a fantastic math student. You see a difference. I think it's the, you want to have that dynamic [00:17:00] sort of, and connecting it to the child about their experience or their values versus what they are.
Alona Pulde: I think, uh, you know, not defining both yourself and your child is a really important piece of that, right? Because we can also define ourselves. We, it's like that all in lifestyle shift, you know, where we're all in with our kids. And then friendships, hobbies, personal interests, completely fade away around their practices, their games, their um, commitments and.
That same, in that same space, you become that static definition of that soccer mom or that theater dad, or that dance mom. And like I mentioned before, there's the, the, the follow up to that is what happens when they're done with that. Or what happens when they've moved on or moved out that that whole dread of [00:18:00] what's next.
You know, the empty nest syndrome where parents really don't know what to do once their kids are out of the house. And part of that is because their identity has been so, their children's identity has been so much of their own. When their children are gone, they have nothing left. They have lost friends.
They are not connected to their own ha uh, hobbies, even partnerships. Suffer as a result of that.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. It gets really, really tough when your life revolves too much around your children and at the same time, children require so much support. Well, let me say that differently. A lot of people choose to put or devote a lot of their resources towards their children, and maybe the goal is to find that better balance.
Alona Pulde: Yeah. Because I think there's impact on the children as well. Children start feeling like they're responsible for their parents' happiness or um, their parents' own [00:19:00] identity. And it leads to stress and burnout. I remember one of Kylie's friends actually, um, her dad, I. Was a soccer player when he was younger and just pushed her into soccer.
And she actually loves soccer or she loved it, but then it became, oh, she's in one league and then she's in another league, and now she's in all these games. And it started being, um, so encompassing that it was, well, she couldn't, she didn't go to birth. Days and she didn't end up at sleepovers 'cause she had a game the next day or they had to go out of town for a game.
And it was so pervasive in her life that she at one point wanted to quit and the dad got so upset and she stayed in the game, but she stayed in the game for him. Not for herself at that point. And it started being something that she just did not even enjoy.
Matthew Lederman: And I guess that's a good question that parents can ask themselves, but how would they [00:20:00] feel if their child decided to move on to something else?
If you had a child that was a soccer star and then all of a sudden say, you know what I, I'm not really that excited about soccer. I really want to take up theater and I'm not really that great at theater, but I'm really excited, interested in it. As a parent, if you're gonna feel all this pressure. To push your child to stay in the soccer versus saying, Hey, I wanna do what supports my child.
And I think that that's a good, good way of sort of seeing, Hey, is this about me or is this about my child? Is my child saying, now granted, you can explore, did something happen in soccer? You know, they really were enjoying it before. So assuming you've done all that, what's going on for them? And if they genuinely just want to try something new, that they're really moved to try.
You are really resistant to that. 'cause you're attached to them staying in, in soccer. That's the time to reflect and see what's going on inside you. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means, hey, maybe there's some, some, uh, enmeshment there. [00:21:00]
Alona Pulde: Yeah. And, and I think, um, because as you're talking I'm like, Ooh, I can really relate to that.
You know, if the girls decided all of a sudden that they did not want to do musical theater. I think there would be a mourning for me. I would support it, but there would be a sadness because I get so much, I derive so much pleasure out of watching them, you know, watching them practice, watching their shows being part of their, um, experience of that life.
Matthew Lederman: Well, I think that seems very healthy to me. You're gonna mourn all of the needs that were met through them. Mm-hmm. Engaging in that activity. So it's not to suppress or pretend that that doesn't exist, but to allow the mourning to happen. So you can also support the child's experience, which is different than your own.
And the child's needs are different than yours. And sometimes they're lined up and then sometimes they start to [00:22:00] diverge and you wanna mourn the needs that you can't meet anymore through them playing soccer. You have to find other ways to meet those needs for joy and accomplishment and. The play and fun and cheering and connection with friends.
And then you go and do you know what's what works best for the child when you're trying to support the child, but differentiate, are you trying to contribute to your needs or your child's needs? Whose needs are on the table?
Topics & Tools
Host: Topics and tools,
Alona Pulde: awareness, adjustments, and anchors. The triple A approach. The idea behind it is really to separate our identity from our children's identity, and part of that is just like you said, it's, it's the opportunity to help parents recognize when they're over identifying with their child's journey, and then reclaim their own sense of self.[00:23:00]
In this AAA approach. So you wanna talk about this? Yeah.
Matthew Lederman: Being able to unstick yourself, to untangle yourself and separate or unblend yourself from your child. Mm-hmm. And the awareness is recognizing when you're too enmeshed. And signs of of being too enmeshed could include feeling personally devastated by your child's losses or mistakes using we instead of they when talking about their activities.
Having little to no personal interests outside of your child's schedule, feeling anxious or lost at the thought of them quitting or growing up. So that would fall under awareness. And then the next a in the AAA approach is adjustments. Adjustments would include shifting from I am my child's activity to I am a parent who supports my child's activity, and being able to set emotional boundaries, cheer for them.
But let them own their journey and then prioritize [00:24:00] your own hobbies, friendships, and passions. So make sure you really differentiate yourself from your child, and then give the kids space to make their own decisions, even if they choose to quit or change paths. And you can still mourn. The, the thoughts of, of them doing things when they're older in that sport or that activity, or academically, if you were like, oh my God, my child's gonna be this Harvard graduate doctor, brain surgeon, and all of a sudden they wanna be a teacher and they're getting so much happiness from this idea of being a teacher and and helping kids.
There's gonna be some mourning there for you, but there's also an opportunity for you to. Do some personal growth and, and self connect around what needs were you meeting through your child, you know, becoming a Harvard graduate brain surgeon. And that's, that's an opportunity for your own growth, which will actually contribute to you as [00:25:00] much as doing that activity will contribute to your children.
And then the third A, so there was awareness, adjustments, and then anchors. Anchors includes a personal anchor, which is a hobby or goal that has nothing to do with your child's activities. A relational anchor, which is conversations and quality time with your partner or friends that don't revolve around parenting.
And in the future anchor, which is a vision of who you want to be when your kids grow up and move on. I, any of these anchors are particularly important. So the personal anchor, um, for me, for example, jumping into improv and doing something that wasn't work. It wasn't about health and, you know, exercise. It wasn't about doing stuff for the family.
And it's really made a big difference for me and I sometimes the kids and you actually, uh, join that, but it's, it's really about me and, and I'm making friends and experiences through that and, and also our relational anchor, you know, for you and me when we're out and we're saying, Hey, [00:26:00] let's, let's make this a, a kid free.
Hour where we're just talking about you, me, our friends, and by us having our personal anchors, it gives us more to talk about between each other. So I can tell you about some of the things that I did with improv, for example, and you can tell me about you're doing singing lessons and some, uh, uh, auditions for, uh, theater.
You can talk about that. And again, it gives us things to talk about. And, and I think you even wrote an article about when we do things alone, how it actually makes the. Relationship stronger, and I think it's this, this, uh, sort of falls into that, right?
Alona Pulde: Absolutely. When you, because it, you know, now that you're saying that, I mean, even partners can have that same issue of kind of.
Taking on the other person's identity or, you know, um, really becoming enmeshed in, in their partner's lives, and they, again, lose their sense. I mean, it [00:27:00] really comes down to losing your sense of self. And so the opportunity to find your anchor and to reclaim that identity. To find the things that bring you joy, the hobbies that you can engage in for yourself.
And they can't, you know, they can be little things or they can be bigger things. They can be, uh, spending time in improv. They can be singing to yourself. They can be reteaching yourself. How to play an instrument. Um. It could be painting. I mean, there's so many different opportunities, but what they do is really reignite that sense of self.
I am my own person and I have my own interest, and what that affords is the ability to create some space. Between whether it's you and your partner or you and your kids, so that as you value [00:28:00] your own journey more, you can allow the others in your life to kind of travel their own journey.
Matthew Lederman: And it makes, it just makes life more wonderful for you, for the people around you.
I mean, I even noticed with the kids. When I started doing the improv, I had things to talk about with the kids in, in a way that I didn't before. I used to spend all my time asking, how's school? How are you doing? What are you feeling in your heart? But all of a sudden now I have another thing to add, which is, let me tell you about this cool exercise I learned.
Mm-hmm. Or let's, do you wanna do one of these scenes together? Or, oh, I really messed up the other night and it was so funny. And then they start laughing and. I think that it, it, by doing that and, and talking about work is not the same as talking about something that brings you joy and fun and lights you up.
Mm-hmm. Um, and is more around play. So super helpful on so many levels to have these anchors.
Alona Pulde: I think it's also [00:29:00] helpful for the kids to see you as a person, not just as a parent. Somebody who has their own interests and their own, um, engagements and their own life beyond just work and what they happen to be doing.
So I love that.
No skills/ProSkills
Host: No skills. To pro skills.
Alona Pulde: So let's talk about how, how does this look with the no skills versus pro skills?
Matthew Lederman: So no skills, which would be without using, for example, the AAA approach versus using it. So some of the signs of no skills, you parents', mood being dictated by the child's successes and failures. Personal interests, sorry, personal interests and friendships start to [00:30:00] fade.
So you'll start to see, oh, my mood is, is dependent on somebody else. My interest start to go away.
Alona Pulde: You know, that is one. And then the other one I imagine is the opposite of that, which is your, now your friend groups are all, um, are the soccer parents or the theater parents or, um, you know, they're no longer your group.
It's the parents of the group of the kids.
Matthew Lederman: Exactly. Exactly. And then the child, you know, one of the challenges. Is that kids start to feel pressure. Children can start feeling responsible for their parents' happiness and identity. Mm-hmm. Leading to stress and burnout. And even if they don't say it, they, they energetically will feel it and take on that responsibility.
So anxiety can set in and the thought, and, and not only in the child, but even in the parent. Just at the thought of the child quitting or growing up or changing their mind.
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: And then the parent pressuring the child to continue even [00:31:00] when the child's ready to move on. So all of those are signs of no skills versus pro skills.
Alona Pulde: So you mean when I told Jordan that she either had to continue drama or pick a sport? Yes. That was an example of no skills, my friends, no skills.
Matthew Lederman: There we go. Alright. Exactly, so, but then you also identified it and were able to shift it to pro skill. So maybe you can talk about what that looked like when you identified the pressure you put on her and how did you shift it over?
How Well, let's check, have you shifted over yet? I, I, we just kind of, well, we're gonna call that back up. We're gonna call Jordan and we're gonna call her into the show here.
Alona Pulde: Well,
Matthew Lederman: what would it look like if you did it?
Alona Pulde: What would it look like? You know, I think the difference would be I would, uh, invite her to find something else that she does enjoy versus knowing very well that if I put either theater or sports, her, it would absolutely [00:32:00] be theater.
So maybe that invitation would be, Hey dad, you know, what, what excites you and, and how do we support that?
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. And this loops in the device. If they're on the device all the time, that's what excites them. But if you, if they get off the device and say, okay, well if you don't do anything, you're gonna be staring at a wall.
So what would be more fun? Staring at a wall or doing, you know, one of these activities and all of a sudden the activities sound pretty cool. Yeah, so making space for them to sort of find in, in their own bodies, a draw towards something is really helpful, but you have to be willing to let them be in that space for a little bit.
And that space starts with doing nothing. Or stopping what they were doing to see what they feel. Yes, that can be a little uncomfortable. So other signs of pro skills would be being, uh, emotionally supportive, but still maintaining personal independence. So [00:33:00] how can you support your child and still be independent from them?
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: Um, as a parent having friendships and hobbies outside of their child's activities, um, being prepared for life beyond the child's participation. So imagine there's no child. How would you prepare yourself to enjoy life? Mm-hmm. And to make sure children feel supported without feeling responsible.
How? And can you identify if your children are feeling responsible for your happiness? And how would be? I think that might be helpful. It sounds a little bit abstract, but how would a parent know if child's feeling pressure around that? How would you go to, if Jordan was thinking, well, I'm only doing theater because mom wants to, or in fact, Jordan said the other day, Hey, mom seems really excited about the theater, or something like that.
And I checked in with her and, and was just more curious about, you know, how do you feel about mom's excitement and what's, [00:34:00] what's that like for you? And she said, oh, it's really great to see mom so excited and happy about that. You know, she does so much stuff around the house that it's nice to see her really happy about something that's not about.
Taking care of us and, and doing all this work. And, and so Jordan was actually very excited for you, but it was about you doing something for yourself in the theater world. I don't know. How would you identify Jordan was feeling pressure herself?
Alona Pulde: Well, one of, you know, it's interesting. We, the, the girls have dabbled in, in a whole lot of stuff and, um.
One of the differences that I'm seeing with theater is their own connection to their passion and love for it, so that we don't have to tell them to practice and we don't have to harp on that at all. They do it because they enjoy it, you know, and then they share, oh, look at this new dance I learned.
Listen to this new song I learned. Um, so that it comes [00:35:00] effortlessly for them. Or not effort, they, they put in the effort, but that I don't have to push them to participate at this point, um, is to some degree validation. But I think also, um, you know, and I haven't done this, but maybe it is a conversation, a conversation around, Hey, how do you feel about theater and theater class?
And is that something that you wanna continue and would you even be comfortable? Sharing with me that you didn't want to continue, what would that look like? You know? And so having that real conversation as well.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, I think that's an important tool to have them imagine something and then check in with how they would feel and how they would communicate that.
So I want you to imagine you're feeling a lot of pressure and you could even give them a hypothetical of even more pressure so they can get a, a greater contrast. But how would that feel in your body and, and how would you let me know if you were feeling that in your body? Um, that's what we do. Even with [00:36:00] their lines, I will say, Hey, you don't have to practice your lines.
You don't. You can go there and not know your lines, but just check in for me and notice, Hey, how would you feel in your body if you're on at, you're there and your teacher doesn't? Is asking you, you know, what your lines are and she has to feed you the lines because you don't know them. And if she wanted everybody to know them by a certain date and you didn't, how would you feel in your body?
So I'm really trying to get them to connect to their bodies. Mm-hmm. And then, okay, knowing that that's how you would feel, what do you wanna do? But they have to trust that I'm okay with them saying, I'm still not gonna know my lines. There might be times where you have to let them go in and then say, okay, you didn't know your lines.
How was that for you? They might come back and say, oh, it was great. Nobody knew their lines. I didn't want to be the only one that knew my lines, you know? Or they might come back and say, oh, that was a little embarrassing, and my teacher was not happy. Okay, well, okay, well how did that feel? So it's again, really trying to get them connected to their own body, their own intrinsic values, [00:37:00] and their own internal guiding system,
bringing it home.
Bringing it Home
Alona Pulde: You know, you asked me about, and now I'm, I am reflecting on it. You asked me about, uh. Jordan and, and how I would do that whole conversation differently. And I was thinking actually that, you know, now she is actually. Wanting to shift. She wants to shift from musical theater to just acting, not the sand dancing portion.
And I have been supportive and we, and now that I'm looking forward to auditions and, and all of that. Stuff as far as supporting her, but that seems like a transition that has been significantly more comfortable for her. So maybe there's some of this happening subconsciously that is giving her a little bit more space to to, to pursue a little bit of a different venue.
Matthew Lederman: [00:38:00] Yeah, that's a good point. That is something that you've been doing with her and she's really passionate about it, and she's been taking the initiative to put things together to make, keep, get that ball rolling.
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: And she's passionate about it. She keeps, so how would we bring it home? E explain it, invite it, model it, and practice it.
So what does explain it look like?
Alona Pulde: I think a, a reminder for yourself and your children that their activities are their journey and their exploration. And although you are here to support, you're not going to be taking that over, not as your identity and not as your commitment to making it happen. And then invite it from your children.
Really encourage them to make decisions about their activities based on their interests, not pressure from you. And this one is a tough one because, you know, now with, with device [00:39:00] use and how easy that is and, um, kids on devices and that draw to, to just be, um. Engaged in, in technology versus experienced life.
There's a fine line here that's kind of hard to, to walk sometimes, which is, I'm, I wanna push my kids to dabble because otherwise they wanna be on a device all day. But in that dabbling, I wanna give them independence to pick the, the thing that they like.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. It's a balance. I mean, that's the key to parenting is, is this balance.
It's, it's threading the needle. It's checking into your body. As a parent, what are your intentions? It's checking into the, the helping the kids check into their bodies and what are their values, and that's why any parenting expert that comes, this is how you do it. Mm-hmm. Versus saying, this is how you learn to check into your, with yourself and with your [00:40:00] children.
We really resonate with the latter.
Alona Pulde: Yes. Which is the, the next step of bringing it home is really modeling it to your children as well. Not only telling them what they can be doing, but really modeling how you have a balanced life. How you pursue your own passions and your own relationships outside of, uh, being a parent.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. Make it clear that you're doing that and you'll even tell them, Hey, I got some, I need some time for my. Activity here. So what are you all gonna do while I meet that need for myself here? And I like the idea of also you practicing it as a family, which is the, the last part of bringing it home, making space for.
Conversations and experiences that aren't just about their activities. Yes, you can find shared family hobbies and downtime. In fact, we started doing family improv together. Mm-hmm. Which all the kids and you like, and it's being silly, um, but [00:41:00] finding time to do stuff together. And then I have my time for myself.
You, there's time where we'll. Play and act and sing together, but then there's time where you're doing it yourself. Mm-hmm. It's making space for all of that and it's just, it's very important to have both.
Alona Pulde: Absolutely.
One last Thing
Matthew Lederman: Just one last thing I. Our children's lives are theirs to live, and our greatest gift to them is supporting their journey while continuing to grow in our own.
Alona Pulde: So thank you everyone for joining today. We'd love to hear from you. If this episode resonated, leave us a rating and review. It really helps us reach more parents and if you have a story or question about balancing your identity as a parent or any other question or story to share, we would love to hear it.
Email us at parents@wetogether.com. That's [00:42:00] parents@wetogether.com. Thank you everyone. Bye.
Alona Pulde: Hey there. We'd love for you to hit that subscribe button by subscribing, you're helping us spread the word and connect with more amazing people like you.
Host: Welcome to we Be Parents, where parent doctors, Matthew Letterman, and Alona Pulde, explore current parenting topics, share stories, and help bring families closer together.
Alona Pulde: Welcome to WeBe parents, where we explore the joys and challenges of parenting and help families grow closer together. I'm Dr. Alona Poe. And
Matthew Lederman: hi, I'm Dr. Matthew Letterman,
Alona Pulde: and we are excited to be here. Today we're going to be talking about a parenting challenge that doesn't get nearly enough attention what happens when we start to lose ourselves in our children's activities.
If you've ever introduced yourself as a soccer dad or dance mom [00:01:00] and realize you're not sure who you are beyond that role, this episode is for you.
Matthew Lederman: But before we get started, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. We tackle real everyday parenting challenges every week, and we want you to be part of this journey with us.
So please subscribe now so you never miss an episode.
Alona Pulde: So how you doing, Matt?
Matthew Lederman: I am doing well. I'm doing well. I'm on a improv kick these days, so I've been, I've been improving by myself with the kids randomly. I don't know why, but there's something fun about this play and, and, and it's actually ties into this episode a little bit without finding my own play versus just playing with the children.
Alona Pulde: Yes. I imagine that feels really great on many levels.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. I mean, have you ever been the, the parent who gets too caught up in. The kids' activities, would you ever identify or,
Alona Pulde: or am I now
Matthew Lederman: I'm, I'm giving you a little, a little [00:02:00] out, but you, you know, have, have you ever identified? Yeah, I think it's not like we are or we aren't, but sometimes we can really identify as that, as that parent,
Alona Pulde: when I said.
Initially in the introduction, this episode is for you. I really meant for me, um, because yes, I, in, in fact, so our daughters are 11 and 13 and very much into musical theater and, and. I love musical theater. Um, it's my guilty pleasure. If I had any talent at all, I would be a theater actress. Um, sadly, I do not.
So I am living. You have talent. Come on. Not that realm. So I am living vicariously through my daughters who got the nudge. From me to explore musical theater and I'm really excited that they are, [00:03:00] um, loving it of their own volition, but I can definitely relate to pushing them in that direction. In fact, I remember, uh, our little one, Jordan at one point didn't wanna do it and.
I know how much she does not like doing sports. And so I said, oh yeah, no problem Jordan. Let's quit drama and pick a sport you wanna do. And I remember her face, she looked at me, her face fell and begrudgingly, she said, fine, I'll do theater. So I knew where that was headed, I knew how that was gonna end up.
Um, and it was. I had, I, if I reflect back on it, I think there was a lack of differentiation about what I wanted for her and what I kind of wanted for myself. So yes, I have [00:04:00] been there. I am there. Um, and this is a very relevant topic for me.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, and it can happen a lot. It can happen for. Academics. It can happen for sports, it can happen for other extracurriculars.
For me, you know, sports was never, in fact, I was happy when we had two girls. 'cause I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have to teach 'em how to catch a baseball, which, I mean, and I have these horrific memories from, from gym class. And I was on the softball team and the, the what? The part of the field where you don't ever get the ball.
And I was just constantly begging. God to not have a, a, a pop fly out to me because I would get under it and I'd be like, I got it. I got it. And then it'd go right over my head. Everybody's yelling at me. So I was, thank God I don't have to, so I'm not the guy that's like teaching their kids and living through their baseball or football or basketball.
In fact, karate was something I did and I really excelled in karate. But we tried [00:05:00] to get the kids into jujitsu, uh, jiujitsu. And that lasted about 20 minutes.
Alona Pulde: You know, the first time they were pinned down, they're, and we're done.
Matthew Lederman: Exactly. They're like, we have to wrestle and these suits are ugly and Yes. And I don't want to be, these people are sweating.
So that, that lasted about 20 minutes. So anyway, you know, I don't have the, the, some of the, the same challenges, but I can definitely relate. And then even academics, you know, the, the. You know, helping kids do something and you're treating it like it, you know, a project's gonna be, you know, part of the NASA space launch versus like, it's just, you know, a a a third grade project.
Third grade project. Exactly. So, and I definitely heard the kids say, dad, it's good enough. And I'm keep going. I'm like, if you just do this, dad, it's good enough. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. That's when I know I'm slipping into that other role.
Alona Pulde: Well, that I, that is exactly what we're talking about today because it really does start with good intentions.
We all [00:06:00] have these great intentions. We love our children. We want them to succeed, and we invest the time, energy, and emotions into their activities. I think that the challenge is that over time it's almost like something shifts, our own sense of identity starts to get wrapped up in their journey, and that's especially so if we in any way, shape, or form resonate with the direction that they chose.
So for example, with me in theater, or if you are a sports parent and your children are in sports. Right. That resonates with you so that enmeshment becomes even easier because there's a joy in living vicariously through them. So then we become not just parents supporting a child who plays soccer, but we become the soccer dad or the soccer mom.[00:07:00]
There are challenges with that. Not, not only in the present, but also in the future. They grow up, they quit, they move on. They don't wanna do it anymore and or they do wanna do it even, but they're not at home doing it anymore. You know, they're often college or living their lives doing it. And we've spent so much time making our identity, their identity, that when they leave, we feel completely lost.
So that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Today we're gonna be exploring why this happens, how it impacts both us and our kids, and how we can find balance while still being amazing, supporting supportive parents.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, and it doesn't so much, uh, matter, just, you know, you're trying to help the kids.
There's a part of you that's excited by it. I think there's, there's a balance. Just like everything. When I was a kid, [00:08:00] I would try something. If it got hard, I would quit. And I think having some level of, of parent parental encouragement to try and stick that out a little bit, to build a little more resilience for things that don't always come easy.
It's really important. But then if you go to the other extreme. You take the fun out of it and the kids lose their natural connection to the joy of doing it, and they start hearing just the press, feeling the pressure from the parent. So Kylie, our 13-year-old, loves practicing for her play. I. But if we made her practice or had be a certain amount of time or a certain frequency versus asking her, Hey, do you feel ready?
And when you practice, how do you feel when you're up in that stage and you know all your lines and it comes easily. And then they've even said to us, when I know all my lines, dad, then I can really make them, you know, the, the motions of my face and my body and the dancing I can focus on more. But they're connecting to that on their own.
So I think there's this balance of, hey. When are you gonna [00:09:00] practice? Or how are you gonna be prepared and have, but then have them do it in a way that works for them versus us having some rigid, you know, even shows up in the, the homework battles. You've, you've definitely navigated those. I, I thought quite well.
But there was the party you, that you academics meant something to you, which was different than each kid and Kylie and how she feels about academics and Jordan, how she feels and how do we push. You know, we could wear, instead of being the soccer mom or the basketball dad, we could be that kid with, you know, the, A student, right?
Or my kids go into an Ivy League college, so we live through them. Even, we don't even know if they want to go. Or they don't even know. They just, you've been telling them for so long, all of a sudden they wanna go.
Commercial Break
Matthew Lederman: This episode of Webe Parents is brought to you by Webe, calm the child, calmer, designed by doctors and loved by parents
Alona Pulde: struggling with bedtime routines or managing your child's anxiety.
Webe Calm, transforms deep [00:10:00] breathing into a fun and engaging activity, helping kids find their inner calm, perfect for bedtime, stressful moments, or anytime your child needs a little extra help to stay calm. Visit webe calm.com to learn more and bring tranquility to your family. We be calm because we be in this together.
You know, your hopes and your dreams for what your child can become and what can be the opportunities that are afforded to them. You know, I relate to your story of I dabbled in a lot of things as a kid too. Dance and karate and piano and, um, a a whole bunch of stuff and, and I would do it for a little while and they get bored and quit, and I have a lot of regret for that.
As an adult now, you know when I sit in a piano and I can play some basic tunes, but I don't really play piano and I don't play any [00:11:00] other instrument and I don't really play a sport and there was never something that I mastered that I can enjoy today. Um, and so. That adds that extra layer of pressure where I don't want the girls to end up later on saying, oh, why didn't somebody kind of push me in this direction?
Or really, uh, help me stay focused in what I was doing? Why, you know, why did they let me just quit and move on?
Matthew Lederman: Well, I think the focus though. Can be around helping you see the value of doing it versus the focus being rigid rules of how to practice. Like we weren't rigid with Kylie that you know, you have to do homework in this.
In fact, we could probably have a whole other episode on homework, but we wanted to say, Hey, if you're going to a school that requires homework, we make some agreements. How do we navigate that? Even if we go to a school that doesn't require [00:12:00] homework or as much homework, how do we navigate that? And Kylie.
I remember thinking, okay, she's not, she's more interested in the arts. She loves drawing and she loves singing and theater and music, and I didn't really think of her as being interested in academics as much, and Jordan was excelling more in academics and then it sort of switched on their own where Kylie was feeling excited to be able to do math and know how to do it and help her friends do it.
So she all of a sudden chose on her own to learn it and spend more time on it. Whereas Jordan, it got a little bit more work and she. Sort of decreased, you know, her, her efforts on that, but actually started doing more in the acting and theater. So it's, it's trying to, it's that balance of parenting, I think is most important, is how much to how much push, how much pull, how much support, how much do you help them see the future and connect to their own values.
Helping them identify what their values even are.
Alona Pulde: I think that is absolutely key, is really helping them connect to [00:13:00] their own internal barometer around how they wanna show up and what they want for themselves, and helping them maintain that vision. Of, you know, future potential while also being present to their momentary experience.
And it's funny that you say that with Kylie around homework. How many homework battles did you know we have until kind of navigating that balance and then. Today, the tables have turned where sometimes I see her working on stuff. I'm like, Kylie, that's good. Enough, enough you can put it away. You've, you dedicated so much time.
No, no mom, I really wanna finish it and I want it to be like this. Um, which is, you know, kind of cool seeing her push herself because that matters to her. So, absolutely. I love that notion of, um. Being connected to your own values. And I think [00:14:00] that's an important, uh, takeaway for parents too, because when parenting becomes your identity, there are a few issues that become.
Really profound for parents, in essence, losing ourselves In our child's pursuits, there's the proxy identity trap. Parents start living through their child's activities, feeling their children's victories is, and failures as if they're their own. And you know that's, oh, I have the A student, my child is a Harvard student or,
Matthew Lederman: or gifted.
They're in the gifted or the honors program I.
Alona Pulde: Right. Or my, so my daughter is a soccer pro or whatever, you know, my daughter's featuring on Broadway. And you really start owning that identity as your own.
Matthew Lederman: And it's hard, I [00:15:00] imagine, to differentiate between whether you're sharing that because you're proud.
Or are you sharing that because it gives you a sense of it, uh, self-worth as well, like if your worth is sort of tied into the child's success. Yes. And your competence as a parent is tied, tied into your child's accomplishments, or is it more No, I'm really proud. This makes them super happy and they're so excited and so fun, and I just love how happy they are.
Yes. That's about celebrating your child. The first is more where you're starting to, to en mesh a little bit.
Alona Pulde: Yes. And that's, that really sends you into an emotional rollercoaster too, because as long as they're doing well, you are doing well. But if they start to not do so well, then all of a sudden that's a reflection on you as well.
And you have that, you know, with a gifted child who is suddenly struggling academically. The parents are almost embarrassed by that. How could their bright child be struggling? [00:16:00] Or, uh, your child gets on stage and messes up completely and you're that parent whose child messed up. Um,
Matthew Lederman: it's like, do you have a static definition of your child or is it dynamic?
In nonviolent communication, we talk about labels being static versus how they are in the moment is dynamic, so, mm-hmm. If you think you have an intelligent child, that's a static definition. It's almost like a label versus I have a child who is really enjoying math right now, or I have a child that seems to have algebra just flowing super easily for them in this moment, but I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
And it's, and I have a child who really enjoys. This subject versus I have a, I have a, a, an, uh, fantastic. My child's a fantastic math student. You see a difference. I think it's the, you want to have that dynamic [00:17:00] sort of, and connecting it to the child about their experience or their values versus what they are.
Alona Pulde: I think, uh, you know, not defining both yourself and your child is a really important piece of that, right? Because we can also define ourselves. We, it's like that all in lifestyle shift, you know, where we're all in with our kids. And then friendships, hobbies, personal interests, completely fade away around their practices, their games, their um, commitments and.
That same, in that same space, you become that static definition of that soccer mom or that theater dad, or that dance mom. And like I mentioned before, there's the, the, the follow up to that is what happens when they're done with that. Or what happens when they've moved on or moved out that that whole dread of [00:18:00] what's next.
You know, the empty nest syndrome where parents really don't know what to do once their kids are out of the house. And part of that is because their identity has been so, their children's identity has been so much of their own. When their children are gone, they have nothing left. They have lost friends.
They are not connected to their own ha uh, hobbies, even partnerships. Suffer as a result of that.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. It gets really, really tough when your life revolves too much around your children and at the same time, children require so much support. Well, let me say that differently. A lot of people choose to put or devote a lot of their resources towards their children, and maybe the goal is to find that better balance.
Alona Pulde: Yeah. Because I think there's impact on the children as well. Children start feeling like they're responsible for their parents' happiness or um, their parents' own [00:19:00] identity. And it leads to stress and burnout. I remember one of Kylie's friends actually, um, her dad, I. Was a soccer player when he was younger and just pushed her into soccer.
And she actually loves soccer or she loved it, but then it became, oh, she's in one league and then she's in another league, and now she's in all these games. And it started being, um, so encompassing that it was, well, she couldn't, she didn't go to birth. Days and she didn't end up at sleepovers 'cause she had a game the next day or they had to go out of town for a game.
And it was so pervasive in her life that she at one point wanted to quit and the dad got so upset and she stayed in the game, but she stayed in the game for him. Not for herself at that point. And it started being something that she just did not even enjoy.
Matthew Lederman: And I guess that's a good question that parents can ask themselves, but how would they [00:20:00] feel if their child decided to move on to something else?
If you had a child that was a soccer star and then all of a sudden say, you know what I, I'm not really that excited about soccer. I really want to take up theater and I'm not really that great at theater, but I'm really excited, interested in it. As a parent, if you're gonna feel all this pressure. To push your child to stay in the soccer versus saying, Hey, I wanna do what supports my child.
And I think that that's a good, good way of sort of seeing, Hey, is this about me or is this about my child? Is my child saying, now granted, you can explore, did something happen in soccer? You know, they really were enjoying it before. So assuming you've done all that, what's going on for them? And if they genuinely just want to try something new, that they're really moved to try.
You are really resistant to that. 'cause you're attached to them staying in, in soccer. That's the time to reflect and see what's going on inside you. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means, hey, maybe there's some, some, uh, enmeshment there. [00:21:00]
Alona Pulde: Yeah. And, and I think, um, because as you're talking I'm like, Ooh, I can really relate to that.
You know, if the girls decided all of a sudden that they did not want to do musical theater. I think there would be a mourning for me. I would support it, but there would be a sadness because I get so much, I derive so much pleasure out of watching them, you know, watching them practice, watching their shows being part of their, um, experience of that life.
Matthew Lederman: Well, I think that seems very healthy to me. You're gonna mourn all of the needs that were met through them. Mm-hmm. Engaging in that activity. So it's not to suppress or pretend that that doesn't exist, but to allow the mourning to happen. So you can also support the child's experience, which is different than your own.
And the child's needs are different than yours. And sometimes they're lined up and then sometimes they start to [00:22:00] diverge and you wanna mourn the needs that you can't meet anymore through them playing soccer. You have to find other ways to meet those needs for joy and accomplishment and. The play and fun and cheering and connection with friends.
And then you go and do you know what's what works best for the child when you're trying to support the child, but differentiate, are you trying to contribute to your needs or your child's needs? Whose needs are on the table?
Topics & Tools
Host: Topics and tools,
Alona Pulde: awareness, adjustments, and anchors. The triple A approach. The idea behind it is really to separate our identity from our children's identity, and part of that is just like you said, it's, it's the opportunity to help parents recognize when they're over identifying with their child's journey, and then reclaim their own sense of self.[00:23:00]
In this AAA approach. So you wanna talk about this? Yeah.
Matthew Lederman: Being able to unstick yourself, to untangle yourself and separate or unblend yourself from your child. Mm-hmm. And the awareness is recognizing when you're too enmeshed. And signs of of being too enmeshed could include feeling personally devastated by your child's losses or mistakes using we instead of they when talking about their activities.
Having little to no personal interests outside of your child's schedule, feeling anxious or lost at the thought of them quitting or growing up. So that would fall under awareness. And then the next a in the AAA approach is adjustments. Adjustments would include shifting from I am my child's activity to I am a parent who supports my child's activity, and being able to set emotional boundaries, cheer for them.
But let them own their journey and then prioritize [00:24:00] your own hobbies, friendships, and passions. So make sure you really differentiate yourself from your child, and then give the kids space to make their own decisions, even if they choose to quit or change paths. And you can still mourn. The, the thoughts of, of them doing things when they're older in that sport or that activity, or academically, if you were like, oh my God, my child's gonna be this Harvard graduate doctor, brain surgeon, and all of a sudden they wanna be a teacher and they're getting so much happiness from this idea of being a teacher and and helping kids.
There's gonna be some mourning there for you, but there's also an opportunity for you to. Do some personal growth and, and self connect around what needs were you meeting through your child, you know, becoming a Harvard graduate brain surgeon. And that's, that's an opportunity for your own growth, which will actually contribute to you as [00:25:00] much as doing that activity will contribute to your children.
And then the third A, so there was awareness, adjustments, and then anchors. Anchors includes a personal anchor, which is a hobby or goal that has nothing to do with your child's activities. A relational anchor, which is conversations and quality time with your partner or friends that don't revolve around parenting.
And in the future anchor, which is a vision of who you want to be when your kids grow up and move on. I, any of these anchors are particularly important. So the personal anchor, um, for me, for example, jumping into improv and doing something that wasn't work. It wasn't about health and, you know, exercise. It wasn't about doing stuff for the family.
And it's really made a big difference for me and I sometimes the kids and you actually, uh, join that, but it's, it's really about me and, and I'm making friends and experiences through that and, and also our relational anchor, you know, for you and me when we're out and we're saying, Hey, [00:26:00] let's, let's make this a, a kid free.
Hour where we're just talking about you, me, our friends, and by us having our personal anchors, it gives us more to talk about between each other. So I can tell you about some of the things that I did with improv, for example, and you can tell me about you're doing singing lessons and some, uh, uh, auditions for, uh, theater.
You can talk about that. And again, it gives us things to talk about. And, and I think you even wrote an article about when we do things alone, how it actually makes the. Relationship stronger, and I think it's this, this, uh, sort of falls into that, right?
Alona Pulde: Absolutely. When you, because it, you know, now that you're saying that, I mean, even partners can have that same issue of kind of.
Taking on the other person's identity or, you know, um, really becoming enmeshed in, in their partner's lives, and they, again, lose their sense. I mean, it [00:27:00] really comes down to losing your sense of self. And so the opportunity to find your anchor and to reclaim that identity. To find the things that bring you joy, the hobbies that you can engage in for yourself.
And they can't, you know, they can be little things or they can be bigger things. They can be, uh, spending time in improv. They can be singing to yourself. They can be reteaching yourself. How to play an instrument. Um. It could be painting. I mean, there's so many different opportunities, but what they do is really reignite that sense of self.
I am my own person and I have my own interest, and what that affords is the ability to create some space. Between whether it's you and your partner or you and your kids, so that as you value [00:28:00] your own journey more, you can allow the others in your life to kind of travel their own journey.
Matthew Lederman: And it makes, it just makes life more wonderful for you, for the people around you.
I mean, I even noticed with the kids. When I started doing the improv, I had things to talk about with the kids in, in a way that I didn't before. I used to spend all my time asking, how's school? How are you doing? What are you feeling in your heart? But all of a sudden now I have another thing to add, which is, let me tell you about this cool exercise I learned.
Mm-hmm. Or let's, do you wanna do one of these scenes together? Or, oh, I really messed up the other night and it was so funny. And then they start laughing and. I think that it, it, by doing that and, and talking about work is not the same as talking about something that brings you joy and fun and lights you up.
Mm-hmm. Um, and is more around play. So super helpful on so many levels to have these anchors.
Alona Pulde: I think it's also [00:29:00] helpful for the kids to see you as a person, not just as a parent. Somebody who has their own interests and their own, um, engagements and their own life beyond just work and what they happen to be doing.
So I love that.
No skills/ProSkills
Host: No skills. To pro skills.
Alona Pulde: So let's talk about how, how does this look with the no skills versus pro skills?
Matthew Lederman: So no skills, which would be without using, for example, the AAA approach versus using it. So some of the signs of no skills, you parents', mood being dictated by the child's successes and failures. Personal interests, sorry, personal interests and friendships start to [00:30:00] fade.
So you'll start to see, oh, my mood is, is dependent on somebody else. My interest start to go away.
Alona Pulde: You know, that is one. And then the other one I imagine is the opposite of that, which is your, now your friend groups are all, um, are the soccer parents or the theater parents or, um, you know, they're no longer your group.
It's the parents of the group of the kids.
Matthew Lederman: Exactly. Exactly. And then the child, you know, one of the challenges. Is that kids start to feel pressure. Children can start feeling responsible for their parents' happiness and identity. Mm-hmm. Leading to stress and burnout. And even if they don't say it, they, they energetically will feel it and take on that responsibility.
So anxiety can set in and the thought, and, and not only in the child, but even in the parent. Just at the thought of the child quitting or growing up or changing their mind.
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: And then the parent pressuring the child to continue even [00:31:00] when the child's ready to move on. So all of those are signs of no skills versus pro skills.
Alona Pulde: So you mean when I told Jordan that she either had to continue drama or pick a sport? Yes. That was an example of no skills, my friends, no skills.
Matthew Lederman: There we go. Alright. Exactly, so, but then you also identified it and were able to shift it to pro skill. So maybe you can talk about what that looked like when you identified the pressure you put on her and how did you shift it over?
How Well, let's check, have you shifted over yet? I, I, we just kind of, well, we're gonna call that back up. We're gonna call Jordan and we're gonna call her into the show here.
Alona Pulde: Well,
Matthew Lederman: what would it look like if you did it?
Alona Pulde: What would it look like? You know, I think the difference would be I would, uh, invite her to find something else that she does enjoy versus knowing very well that if I put either theater or sports, her, it would absolutely [00:32:00] be theater.
So maybe that invitation would be, Hey dad, you know, what, what excites you and, and how do we support that?
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. And this loops in the device. If they're on the device all the time, that's what excites them. But if you, if they get off the device and say, okay, well if you don't do anything, you're gonna be staring at a wall.
So what would be more fun? Staring at a wall or doing, you know, one of these activities and all of a sudden the activities sound pretty cool. Yeah, so making space for them to sort of find in, in their own bodies, a draw towards something is really helpful, but you have to be willing to let them be in that space for a little bit.
And that space starts with doing nothing. Or stopping what they were doing to see what they feel. Yes, that can be a little uncomfortable. So other signs of pro skills would be being, uh, emotionally supportive, but still maintaining personal independence. So [00:33:00] how can you support your child and still be independent from them?
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: Um, as a parent having friendships and hobbies outside of their child's activities, um, being prepared for life beyond the child's participation. So imagine there's no child. How would you prepare yourself to enjoy life? Mm-hmm. And to make sure children feel supported without feeling responsible.
How? And can you identify if your children are feeling responsible for your happiness? And how would be? I think that might be helpful. It sounds a little bit abstract, but how would a parent know if child's feeling pressure around that? How would you go to, if Jordan was thinking, well, I'm only doing theater because mom wants to, or in fact, Jordan said the other day, Hey, mom seems really excited about the theater, or something like that.
And I checked in with her and, and was just more curious about, you know, how do you feel about mom's excitement and what's, [00:34:00] what's that like for you? And she said, oh, it's really great to see mom so excited and happy about that. You know, she does so much stuff around the house that it's nice to see her really happy about something that's not about.
Taking care of us and, and doing all this work. And, and so Jordan was actually very excited for you, but it was about you doing something for yourself in the theater world. I don't know. How would you identify Jordan was feeling pressure herself?
Alona Pulde: Well, one of, you know, it's interesting. We, the, the girls have dabbled in, in a whole lot of stuff and, um.
One of the differences that I'm seeing with theater is their own connection to their passion and love for it, so that we don't have to tell them to practice and we don't have to harp on that at all. They do it because they enjoy it, you know, and then they share, oh, look at this new dance I learned.
Listen to this new song I learned. Um, so that it comes [00:35:00] effortlessly for them. Or not effort, they, they put in the effort, but that I don't have to push them to participate at this point, um, is to some degree validation. But I think also, um, you know, and I haven't done this, but maybe it is a conversation, a conversation around, Hey, how do you feel about theater and theater class?
And is that something that you wanna continue and would you even be comfortable? Sharing with me that you didn't want to continue, what would that look like? You know? And so having that real conversation as well.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah, I think that's an important tool to have them imagine something and then check in with how they would feel and how they would communicate that.
So I want you to imagine you're feeling a lot of pressure and you could even give them a hypothetical of even more pressure so they can get a, a greater contrast. But how would that feel in your body and, and how would you let me know if you were feeling that in your body? Um, that's what we do. Even with [00:36:00] their lines, I will say, Hey, you don't have to practice your lines.
You don't. You can go there and not know your lines, but just check in for me and notice, Hey, how would you feel in your body if you're on at, you're there and your teacher doesn't? Is asking you, you know, what your lines are and she has to feed you the lines because you don't know them. And if she wanted everybody to know them by a certain date and you didn't, how would you feel in your body?
So I'm really trying to get them to connect to their bodies. Mm-hmm. And then, okay, knowing that that's how you would feel, what do you wanna do? But they have to trust that I'm okay with them saying, I'm still not gonna know my lines. There might be times where you have to let them go in and then say, okay, you didn't know your lines.
How was that for you? They might come back and say, oh, it was great. Nobody knew their lines. I didn't want to be the only one that knew my lines, you know? Or they might come back and say, oh, that was a little embarrassing, and my teacher was not happy. Okay, well, okay, well how did that feel? So it's again, really trying to get them connected to their own body, their own intrinsic values, [00:37:00] and their own internal guiding system,
bringing it home.
Bringing it Home
Alona Pulde: You know, you asked me about, and now I'm, I am reflecting on it. You asked me about, uh. Jordan and, and how I would do that whole conversation differently. And I was thinking actually that, you know, now she is actually. Wanting to shift. She wants to shift from musical theater to just acting, not the sand dancing portion.
And I have been supportive and we, and now that I'm looking forward to auditions and, and all of that. Stuff as far as supporting her, but that seems like a transition that has been significantly more comfortable for her. So maybe there's some of this happening subconsciously that is giving her a little bit more space to to, to pursue a little bit of a different venue.
Matthew Lederman: [00:38:00] Yeah, that's a good point. That is something that you've been doing with her and she's really passionate about it, and she's been taking the initiative to put things together to make, keep, get that ball rolling.
Host: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Lederman: And she's passionate about it. She keeps, so how would we bring it home? E explain it, invite it, model it, and practice it.
So what does explain it look like?
Alona Pulde: I think a, a reminder for yourself and your children that their activities are their journey and their exploration. And although you are here to support, you're not going to be taking that over, not as your identity and not as your commitment to making it happen. And then invite it from your children.
Really encourage them to make decisions about their activities based on their interests, not pressure from you. And this one is a tough one because, you know, now with, with device [00:39:00] use and how easy that is and, um, kids on devices and that draw to, to just be, um. Engaged in, in technology versus experienced life.
There's a fine line here that's kind of hard to, to walk sometimes, which is, I'm, I wanna push my kids to dabble because otherwise they wanna be on a device all day. But in that dabbling, I wanna give them independence to pick the, the thing that they like.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. It's a balance. I mean, that's the key to parenting is, is this balance.
It's, it's threading the needle. It's checking into your body. As a parent, what are your intentions? It's checking into the, the helping the kids check into their bodies and what are their values, and that's why any parenting expert that comes, this is how you do it. Mm-hmm. Versus saying, this is how you learn to check into your, with yourself and with your [00:40:00] children.
We really resonate with the latter.
Alona Pulde: Yes. Which is the, the next step of bringing it home is really modeling it to your children as well. Not only telling them what they can be doing, but really modeling how you have a balanced life. How you pursue your own passions and your own relationships outside of, uh, being a parent.
Matthew Lederman: Yeah. Make it clear that you're doing that and you'll even tell them, Hey, I got some, I need some time for my. Activity here. So what are you all gonna do while I meet that need for myself here? And I like the idea of also you practicing it as a family, which is the, the last part of bringing it home, making space for.
Conversations and experiences that aren't just about their activities. Yes, you can find shared family hobbies and downtime. In fact, we started doing family improv together. Mm-hmm. Which all the kids and you like, and it's being silly, um, but [00:41:00] finding time to do stuff together. And then I have my time for myself.
You, there's time where we'll. Play and act and sing together, but then there's time where you're doing it yourself. Mm-hmm. It's making space for all of that and it's just, it's very important to have both.
Alona Pulde: Absolutely.
One last Thing
Matthew Lederman: Just one last thing I. Our children's lives are theirs to live, and our greatest gift to them is supporting their journey while continuing to grow in our own.
Alona Pulde: So thank you everyone for joining today. We'd love to hear from you. If this episode resonated, leave us a rating and review. It really helps us reach more parents and if you have a story or question about balancing your identity as a parent or any other question or story to share, we would love to hear it.
Email us at parents@wetogether.com. That's [00:42:00] parents@wetogether.com. Thank you everyone. Bye.
