Transforming Children's Hospice and Global Palliative Care: the Extraordinary Ministry of Revd David Ireland

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Friends, welcome to another edition of the Synod podcast, and today my guest
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is the Reverend David Ireland.
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David has retired, recently retired.
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He's a 13-month retired minister, but somebody who's done an extraordinary amount
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in the time that he's been in ministry, and that's what we're going to be talking about today.
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David, you've described your life as very blessed.
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Very blessed. And I think I said to you earlier, Lawrence, I've always felt
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like my jobs were playing out.
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I've never really felt as if I was going to work in the various things that
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I've done. So, yeah, very blessed.
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That's great. I mean, I was fascinated to discover all the different facets
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to your life and work and ministry. You're a trained architect.
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You had your pilot's wings at 17.
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You've been consulted by people in Japan, in Sarajevo, and all over the world.
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And you've run and been the CEO of Francis House,
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which is a children's hospice, and built it up so that it's been a place that's
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had extraordinary influence in children's palliative care, hasn't it?
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It has, and Fantasy House has gone from something that was very small to something
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that is now regarded worldwide as a place of excellence and something to be emulated.
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And it's not just about the buildings,
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it's about the people that work there and the way in which they care for families
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who are at the rock bottom when they've been given a diagnosis that their child
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or young person has got a life-limiting condition involved.
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So let's go back to the start about your call to ministry. You grew up as one of four children?
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No, one of five. And in addition to the five kids, which was a small family
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in those days, we had families in our brigade at church that were 12, 13 kids in the family.
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So it wasn't a big family. My mother fostered short term. So we actually had
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people who came to live with us for short periods.
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It was a very happy family home. I was very blessed there.
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Your brother, Philip, with whom you were very, very close, he died under tragic
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circumstances, and that had an influence on your call to ministry, didn't it?
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Well, at the time Philip died, I was 25, he was 23,
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and he died in a tragic accident in
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West Germany so I was
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at the time doing my postgraduate training
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as an architect and whilst I
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was doing my final thesis which involved
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for architects the final thesis involved designing a
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building and producing all the drawings whilst I
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was doing this I was traveling backwards and forwards
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to West Germany and trying to resolve difficulties with
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them getting Philip's body back to
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the UK with his friend Danny who was also killed
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that was what really made me begin to
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think about faith and about life and death I'd always been involved in the boys
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brigade as a kid I'd got to the stage where I was moving on into adult life and was less involved.
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And then Philip died, and I had to make a decision.
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You either become very angry with God or move away from God altogether.
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But in my instance, the church was so supportive, the people were so supportive
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of my family and of me, that I became more involved.
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I was BB captain and became more involved in the leadership of the church and
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felt a call to train for ordination at that time.
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By the time I started to do something about it
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I was married practicing as an architect
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and my wife wasn't very happy about me
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giving up what was a promising career
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and a decent salary to go back to train to be a minister she'd supported me
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through seven years of college as an architect and so I put off and put off
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the decision for five or six years and then Then the senior moderator at the time was Tony Burnham,
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and he and Reverend Graham Cook were promoting non-stipendary ministry.
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And this seemed like the way forward for me.
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I could still carry on with my architectural career, but train for ordination
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on a part-time basis and become a non-stipendary minister.
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And so I enrolled at Luther King House, and that was the beginning of my ministry.
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Right. And you were ordained and inducted into non-stipendery ministry in 1995, was it?
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1995. And at that time, Tony had gone down to be general secretary and Keith
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Forkast was the moderator.
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Right.
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And non-stipendery ministers were being ordained as district ministers then
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to serve the whole district.
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Um Union Street had been without a
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minister for a long time and there
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was a desperate need to do something and there was no way
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they were going to partner with anybody else and so
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Keith asked me if I would go to Union Street for 12 months whilst they resolved
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what was going to happen that was 1995 and so I spent a lot of my time at Union
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Street Oldham and every other week I was preaching in other churches around the district.
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You were asked to look after Union Street particularly for a year in 1995.
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In 1995.
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And when did that year finish?
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Well, it's still going at the moment. I'm still preaching there once or twice a month.
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Oldham in that time has changed phenomenally.
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People have moved out away from the town centre.
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Oldham has become a predominantly Muslim town. but there are lots of people
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who need support living in the low-cost accommodation.
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And Union Street has been involved in setting up the town centre chaplaincy,
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which has been a great support through a period of great change in the town
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for the people in the shop.
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So let's talk about Francis House, which again has been something,
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a place in which you've been involved since 1989.
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And in 1989, am I right, it was one of four children's hospices?
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It was the fifth children's hospice. Britain led the way in children's hospices.
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They hadn't been known anywhere else and the first was in Cambridge set up by an Anglican nun,
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Sister Frances Dominica Frances House was established with the lead coming from
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a Franciscan nun a Catholic nun,
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Sister Aloysius who was a phenomenal lady
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who actually got the
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charity registered and within 22 months we had got a house open working as a
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hospice and it was opened by Princess Diana and I was employed initially as
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the architect for Francis House,
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a young architect that put a lot of trust into me in my abilities but I'd already
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worked for the sisters on the rescue society buildings.
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And I'd become very friendly with the Rescue Society's secretary, Father Tom Mulheran.
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Who was also one of the trustees. So I was employed to get this building off
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the ground with very little money,
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and Sister Aloysius actually kicked the sisters out of the convent,
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and I was given the convent to convert.
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So the original part of the building is a 1956 convent.
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Right. And the sisters were sent to other places. I had to find another accommodation.
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And like I say, we had the place open within two years.
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Most children's hospices even now take eight to ten years from inception to opening.
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Francis House did it in less than two years, and that was because of faith.
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Faith was at the key of everything that was done and the belief that the need
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was there for the families.
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And Sister Aloysius was brilliant at bullying people
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into giving money and loaning money
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and when I
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took over from her in 2005 she owed the bishop 1.4 million pounds which I had
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to pay back which was a bit of a daunting figure but we did it and thanks to
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the generosity of the people of the North West.
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We were able to build on what she'd provided to start with.
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The families that come to Francis House are desperately in need of support and
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the numbers are going up quicker than we can expand to provide the service for them.
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That was the hospice that I took over in 2005, there were then 38 staff and
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185 families on the roll.
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And when I finished in 2025.
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The number of families was over 500 having support and staff was about 120,
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which is a big, it's a big salary to find.
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But like I said, the generosity of the people of Northwest has meant that we've
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been able to stay stable even during COVID.
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I mean, it wasn't without personal cost that that move from a national firm
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of architect to CEO of France's house, where you were effectively on a minister's stipend.
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Well, my poor wife supported me through architectural college,
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and then I told her that I wanted to be a minister.
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And we were just getting to the point where we had a decent standard of living
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and we had two girls at school, and I decided then that I would take this role at France's house.
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That's how we worked to keep the costs down. and when i finished um we got it
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such a finely tuned organization that 90 90 pence in every pound donated went
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to the care of the children.
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So so you haven't wasted
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any money you haven't wasted any time either because
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um you and judith your your
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wife you adopted paula and susie it was seven and eight at the start yeah uh
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so as well as as an incredibly busy job you've got a busy home life but you
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didn't simply just keep uh france's house going the the expanded didn't it
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Yeah i mean locally the hospice care had to change because of changing times
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in the mid-90s very few of our young people lived beyond the age of 16. However...
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Medical advances have meant that young people are living longer but with ever-increasing problems.
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And we've now got about, I would think, about 180, 190 young adults who are living into their 20s.
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Not many go beyond 25.
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As they get older, their problems increase.
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There is more medication required and more specialized
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care but also the parents get
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older and the parents struggle more because
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it's unrelenting it's 24-hour care
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the big worry is what happens to their children if they die before them so that
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we decided that we needed to do something more specialized for teenagers and
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young adults and provide a different form of respite care and a different form of nursing care.
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And with Father Mulheran, we persuaded the Catholic Rescue Society to give us
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two semi-detached houses further down Pileswood Road in Didsbury.
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And we converted those into a mini hospice.
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And whilst we were using that as a teenager's hospice, we employed Manchester
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University to do independent research into the needs of the teenagers and their families.
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And used the building as a model for them to see what was working or what wasn't working,
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and that informed the brief for us to build a new building on the site of the
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old Rescue Society offices, which I'd built in 1986.
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Now you're getting old when you start knocking down buildings that you built.
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So we actually built the Teenage Young Adults unit, And that was opened by William
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and Kate, Prince William and Kate, in 2016.
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And we then had this other building that was a good facility,
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the two semi-detached houses, and we'd realised that there were young people
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whose families could no longer care for them.
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And if you need nursing care at 22...
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And you have to go into a care home. The only care home that provides you with
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the nursing care you need because of the drugs you need is a dementia home.
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Well, it's not right for young people who are articulate and sentient to be
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shoved in a dementia home.
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So we set up a residential scheme for young people,
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seven young people, all with very complex conditions, living together in what
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basically became like a student flat each,
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but with full-time nursing care and social support and psychological support with it.
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It's about living short lives to the maximum and achieving as much as you can.
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Just before I retired, we managed to
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get hold of another two semi-detached houses
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which we converted into a six-bed unit for
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young adults again with life limited conditions
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but who couldn't move very well they they can't look after themselves in any
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way they can't talk very well so they're very much reliant on care and that's
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a different environment again because the parents can come and go as they please
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but they don't have the unremitting care,
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which they would normally have 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
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So you've established Francis House. You've established a place for teenagers and young adults,
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a family home environment for students and their needs, and a place for kids
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who can't move or speak. This is all pioneering stuff.
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And it's getting known, isn't it, more widely.
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Can you tell us how you came then to be involved in Chernobyl and Sarajevo?
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Because there's a direct connection, isn't there?
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Well, that goes back earlier days, Chernobyl.
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The young people who were affected by Chernobyl were coming to England and being
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supported for holidays.
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And people got to know them. and there were some brilliant little charities set up to support them.
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But then they grew and as they grew,
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they got into relationships and they had children of their own and their children
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were born with significant oncology problems as a result of the fallout.
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And so we were asked if we could help set up pain relief because there was no
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pain relief in Belarus for the young people that were affected.
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They didn't have morphine. They didn't have any way.
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Even paracetamol was not fully available.
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And so we actually had a nurse who went over there to begin to start up a pain clinic.
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And we had equipment that we couldn't use in this country, not because it wasn't
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working, but because the government deemed it needed to be updated so that we
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complied with hospital requirements.
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And so we were able to take this equipment out, we were able to train people
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and set up pain clinics in Belarus,
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and that has led to a different attitude to pain relief.
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If we go back to when we started in the 80s,
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when the children's hospice movement started. That was how it was in this country.
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People believed children didn't feel pain the same way as adults.
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So they weren't given morphine. They were treated with aspirin.
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And, you know, it was a very different attitude and we've had to educate people
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in this country. And the same was happening in Belarus.
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And there's a shortage of cash, but we were able to
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help by setting up pain clinics and by
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providing people to train nurses there how to
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use the equipment and the principal thing
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we did was we had to update our syringe drivers
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with the things that give morphine at the end of life to comply with the hospital
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Manchester Children's Hospital and the other equipment we had before we sent
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out there and that made such a significant difference to many children's lives right.
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And then 10 years after Radovan Karadzic had been deposed in Sarajevo, you got the call.
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Well, when Radovan Karadzic was in power, he surrounded Sarajevo.
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You'll remember it being on the radio, on the news.
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And he was bombing to ethnic cleanse.
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And one of the things he did was bomb the children's hospital.
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And again there was no pain relief for the children and one of the St Gemma sisters.
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From St Gemma's at Leeds had been out there trying to provide some way of providing
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pain relief and we got involved in that and we set up a pain clinic in Sarajevo.
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Now at that time there was a hospital on the, I was told it was on the outskirts of Sarajevo,
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it was actually six hours drive away but this
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hospital had got a boiler house which they wanted to convert
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into a children's hospice but the
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hospital had NGO money international
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money being poured into it but the mafia were actually taking the money from
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the hospital and so the NGO said we'll put money in if you partner with a centre
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of excellence in UK or in America and they contacted us through the Sengem and none.
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Margaret Hickey, the head nurse at the time, and I went out to Sarajevo,
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It was a frightening time, even 10 years after Rudyard Caradage.
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Every inch of land in Sarajevo had got graves on it.
00:21:18.756 --> 00:21:24.196
The grass verged down the middle of the road on the dual carriageway had graves all down it.
00:21:25.656 --> 00:21:28.736
The place was beaten by war.
00:21:28.876 --> 00:21:34.936
So we were asked to provide support for this children's hospice that was going
00:21:34.936 --> 00:21:38.756
to be built, which as I say was six hours away from Sarajevo.
00:21:38.956 --> 00:21:45.556
We went there and I met the hospital engineer and the hospital managing director
00:21:45.556 --> 00:21:52.996
and they gave us an old boiler house which was being converted into a children's hospice.
00:21:53.136 --> 00:21:57.536
There was no building regulations, no planning regulations, no health and safety,
00:21:57.776 --> 00:21:59.436
no fire officers, nothing.
00:21:59.816 --> 00:22:06.356
And I met the engineer and I was doing drawings on the photocopying paper,
00:22:06.556 --> 00:22:09.836
and they were building it as I was doing the drawings.
00:22:10.156 --> 00:22:14.956
Within 12 or 13 months, they had actually opened a children's hospice.
00:22:15.036 --> 00:22:18.196
It was a great experience. It was frightening.
00:22:18.456 --> 00:22:23.016
I've never, ever slept in a hotel room before with bullet holes in the wall.
00:22:23.636 --> 00:22:26.936
And you don't know when they actually arrived there, but you wouldn't.
00:22:28.436 --> 00:22:36.636
So, David, you've become somebody who is renowned as an expert internationally
00:22:36.636 --> 00:22:47.816
in children's palliative care and the architecture of hospices in nursing care and pain relief.
00:22:48.136 --> 00:22:54.636
You've done that work in Romania and Montenegro. You've been asked to lecture. Yeah.
00:22:55.396 --> 00:23:00.256
Tell us about the phone call from Yokohama in Japan in 2017.
00:23:00.636 --> 00:23:07.856
Well, Mr. Tagawa, Tagawa-san, he's an amazing man who had a daughter who died with a brain tumour.
00:23:08.436 --> 00:23:14.436
And she wanted to walk on the grass before she died, and the hospital authorities wouldn't allow it.
00:23:14.716 --> 00:23:20.676
And that's because in Japan, they believe that the machines solve everything.
00:23:20.876 --> 00:23:25.296
So you can actually, a child is diagnosed with a condition. They put them on
00:23:25.296 --> 00:23:31.476
machines in ICU, intensive care unit, and the machines that go ping keep them going.
00:23:32.176 --> 00:23:37.816
Now, it's an awful environment for children to be in, and they're surrounded
00:23:37.816 --> 00:23:40.836
by people who have got life-threatening conditions.
00:23:41.476 --> 00:23:43.556
The parents are allowed one hour
00:23:43.556 --> 00:23:49.176
a day to visit, so there was a whole philosophy that had to be changed.
00:23:50.836 --> 00:23:55.496
And initially Jill Bevan who was then the head nurse of Francis House and I
00:23:55.496 --> 00:24:03.636
went out with Tagawa Sam to go around the children's hospitals and try and re-educate
00:24:03.636 --> 00:24:05.976
people into the need for the sorts of.
00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:11.449
Care that Francis House gives. And it's not about the building,
00:24:11.449 --> 00:24:16.309
it's the philosophy and the ethos and the way in which the families are able
00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:19.389
to live their lives with this thing hanging over.
00:24:19.549 --> 00:24:22.109
Yeah, we went out and went round the hospitals.
00:24:22.349 --> 00:24:27.909
And then the following year, I was asked to be the keynote speaker at the International
00:24:27.909 --> 00:24:30.229
Paediatric Palliative Care Conference,
00:24:30.289 --> 00:24:34.049
which sounds very grand in Yokohama and
00:24:34.049 --> 00:24:38.789
I think I said to you before you know normally when you go to a conference in
00:24:38.789 --> 00:24:43.769
this country they tell you where the toilets are and the fire exits in Yokohama
00:24:43.769 --> 00:24:48.409
they say in the event of earthquake and that sets you up for your lecture then
00:24:48.409 --> 00:24:50.749
because you're wondering whether there's going to be an earthquake.
00:24:51.449 --> 00:24:58.189
Mr Tagawa was going to do something in setting up the first independent hospice.
00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:06.609
And he was given a site down near the dock by the government to build it on, which sounds great.
00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:13.489
But that site had earthquake problems and a threat of tsunami because he was at water level.
00:25:13.769 --> 00:25:20.909
So I got involved with their architect looking at the design of a children's
00:25:20.909 --> 00:25:24.209
hospice, but also looking at how we could build it and the way,
00:25:24.897 --> 00:25:28.037
that it was homely but it dealt with the problems
00:25:28.037 --> 00:25:31.337
of tsunami so all of the living accommodation
00:25:31.337 --> 00:25:34.697
is way up at first floor level above a concrete bunker
00:25:34.697 --> 00:25:40.117
which has all the storage and the facilities for equipment and the boiler rooms
00:25:40.117 --> 00:25:44.717
and things so that in the event of tsunami they're not flooding out and that's
00:25:44.717 --> 00:25:49.897
something that you have to think about even in this country for us if there's
00:25:49.897 --> 00:25:52.317
a fire, we run out of the fire exit.
00:25:52.657 --> 00:25:58.077
For the young people at Francis House, if there's a fire, they might be on oxygen.
00:25:58.317 --> 00:26:03.637
They might need continual piped oxygen. They might need evacuation with special
00:26:03.637 --> 00:26:08.937
clinical input. So it's not easy to actually evacuate a building like that.
00:26:09.097 --> 00:26:16.817
And currently I'm talking to a guy called Dr Kazoon, who is in Aichi province.
00:26:16.917 --> 00:26:22.937
That's the Toyota town and Toyota are going to be helping to fund a children's hospice there.
00:26:23.057 --> 00:26:27.537
There's also the potential for a hospice on the island of Kiyoshe, one of the South Island.
00:26:27.717 --> 00:26:32.237
Yes, I'm still trying to imagine any other British architect being asked to
00:26:32.237 --> 00:26:34.837
design a building that's tsunami-proof.
00:26:36.097 --> 00:26:45.017
As you said earlier, David, Francis House has become a place that's known throughout the world.
00:26:46.057 --> 00:26:53.017
Latvia czech republic australia usa but it's it's not only known by folk who
00:26:53.017 --> 00:26:58.917
are dealing with palliative care and buildings tell us a story about the easter chick
00:26:58.917 --> 00:27:02.257
Oh yes the easter chick campaign which
00:27:02.257 --> 00:27:08.797
many people i know in the urc are supporting um knitted easter chicks with a
00:27:08.797 --> 00:27:14.417
Cadbury's easter egg inside and we were selling them for a pound and we had
00:27:14.417 --> 00:27:18.717
little old ladies a bit like shredded wheat we were little old ladies knitting
00:27:18.717 --> 00:27:22.017
chicks and we made about 500 pounds and,
00:27:22.493 --> 00:27:25.833
each year with them and it was great but
00:27:25.833 --> 00:27:28.853
then we put the pattern on the
00:27:28.853 --> 00:27:32.553
world wide web and suddenly people
00:27:32.553 --> 00:27:38.573
were knitting for france's house in australia and japan and china and america
00:27:38.573 --> 00:27:46.673
and canada and even a group of women in uganda supported by a charity from manchester
00:27:46.673 --> 00:27:52.133
were knitting chicks for France's house in the open air, under a tree,
00:27:52.893 --> 00:27:58.153
and we had to send out plastic eggs because Easter eggs would melt in the heat.
00:27:58.213 --> 00:28:02.973
But they actually were being paid by the charity to knit chicks for France's
00:28:02.973 --> 00:28:08.513
house, and that provided money for them to give their daughters education because
00:28:08.513 --> 00:28:11.173
in Uganda it's the boys who get the education.
00:28:11.973 --> 00:28:19.493
And so it's like a double whammy but the chick campaign has become such a big
00:28:19.493 --> 00:28:23.193
thing now and last year it raised over £74,000.
00:28:24.613 --> 00:28:28.173
£74,000 and they go
00:28:28.173 --> 00:28:32.693
all over the world and in fact going back to Yokohama at the beginning of one
00:28:32.693 --> 00:28:37.573
of the conferences a man stood up at the back of this huge auditorium I've got
00:28:37.573 --> 00:28:43.193
one of your chicks he shouted at me and he held it up And somebody has knitted
00:28:43.193 --> 00:28:44.733
a chick, actually, for me,
00:28:44.973 --> 00:28:50.673
which I have on my piano, which is in a dog collar and has a cross around its
00:28:50.673 --> 00:28:52.833
neck, which I quite like and treasure.
00:28:52.833 --> 00:29:01.253
And so next week, you're off to the palace because of your British Empire Medal.
00:29:01.733 --> 00:29:06.593
That won't surprise people, I think, after hearing what you've been telling us.
00:29:06.693 --> 00:29:12.173
But what they can't see is you roll your eyes and blush when I mention the medal.
00:29:13.257 --> 00:29:14.837
Tell us about it, David.
00:29:15.497 --> 00:29:20.437
Well, it's a great thing for the team at Francis House, and it is a team job.
00:29:20.617 --> 00:29:23.317
You talk about what we've done around the world.
00:29:23.777 --> 00:29:29.857
It's a whole team that is behind me, and I think it's important to say that
00:29:29.857 --> 00:29:36.757
I'm one of these people who delegates and stands back and lets people get on with things,
00:29:38.097 --> 00:29:39.877
and it's good people.
00:29:39.877 --> 00:29:43.217
Surround yourself with good people and things will happen.
00:29:43.557 --> 00:29:47.737
But it's a pleasure to be able to go down. And Mrs. Ireland's already got the
00:29:47.737 --> 00:29:49.337
dress. It's cost me a fortune.
00:29:50.937 --> 00:29:55.857
Keith Forkast, a beloved former moderator of the Northwestern Synod,
00:29:56.277 --> 00:30:03.197
said of you, David Ireland's a team player as long as it's his rulebook and he's the team captain.
00:30:04.037 --> 00:30:05.677
Is that a fair description?
00:30:05.917 --> 00:30:12.777
I took it as a compliment. I think it is. I feel, as I said earlier,
00:30:13.297 --> 00:30:16.737
I feel blessed in the people that I'm surrounded by.
00:30:16.937 --> 00:30:22.257
And both in the church and in Francis House and in my life generally,
00:30:22.257 --> 00:30:25.817
I've just met so many wonderful people who
00:30:25.817 --> 00:30:29.977
all show love and concern and
00:30:29.977 --> 00:30:34.637
make me feel that there is hope for this world that we live in because we're
00:30:34.637 --> 00:30:38.457
living in a world where there's so much war and selfishness some power grabbing
00:30:38.457 --> 00:30:46.877
and the news is appalling and yet Francis House 5 million pounds only 20% comes
00:30:46.877 --> 00:30:48.177
from government each year.
00:30:48.825 --> 00:30:54.785
And it's the people of the Northwest, this great raft of love and care that
00:30:54.785 --> 00:30:56.185
keep Francis House going.
00:30:56.485 --> 00:30:59.505
And it's the same within the United Reformed Church. People,
00:30:59.685 --> 00:31:04.945
dedicated, committed Christians, working quietly, keeping the church going.
00:31:05.085 --> 00:31:08.445
But not only that, affecting the communities they live in.
00:31:08.605 --> 00:31:11.385
David, it's been a delight to talk to you.
00:31:11.805 --> 00:31:17.685
Thank you for giving up your time. And can I say, an extraordinary response
00:31:17.685 --> 00:31:21.025
to God's call all those years ago.
00:31:21.225 --> 00:31:27.505
We wish you God's richest blessings on you as you retire. Thank you.
00:31:27.765 --> 00:31:28.265
Thank you.