Grudge Match

WEBVTT
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Music.
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And welcome back to Ugly, Irresponsible, and Childish, where two industry vets
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talk about all things creative and even some things that are not so creative.
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But we're just basically here to piss a lot of people off.
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That's kind of where I've netted out on where this podcast is actually going.
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Like, who can we alienate?
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From some of the emails I've been reading, we're alienating some.
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Maybe not alienating, but I think it's perfect for our topic du jour today in terms of grudges.
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Yeah, and you're hearing from, of course, my partner in crime,
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my co-conspirator, my accomplice, the wheel man to my, you know, bank heist, Mr.
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Jeremy Baca. Thank you, sir.
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And in true fashion, as we do on every call, we risk our careers so no one else
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has to because we're going to be talking about those grudges today.
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And I might be naming some names. I don't know.
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Yeah, I've actually thought long and hard about whether or not I'm going to
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say, I'm going to refer to people or clients or whatever. And the answer is absolutely yes.
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And the answer is absolutely yes. Good for you.
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So a little bit of backstory on this, the, this topic, we, we got to this during
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last week's episode when we were talking about the value of villains and negativity
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and all those things when it comes to creativity.
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And I had mentioned that one of my favorite brainstorm icebreaker warmups was
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asking people to name their oldest grudge.
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And it, it, it got kind of an interesting response and there are a lot of people
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i think including you jeremy who who hadn't thought about the idea of grudges
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in a long time and and you know we tend to think of it as a grudge is you know.
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We're going to spare you all the cliches grudges like you know
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drinking poison and expecting someone else to die yeah uh
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you're cutting your nose off to spite their face oh you
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know all this nonsense but we do tend to think about grudges as something that's
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a part of our youth whether it be you think you know middle school or your early
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20s but it's something that you kind of leave behind after a while and jeremy
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i don't know about you but i still have a couple of very,
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deep-seated grudges that i i don't obsess over
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necessarily but i certainly hang on to and and revisit over time yeah and i
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and i gotta tell you mine mine are not grade school based i mean i have i was
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up until about i would if i let's see i'm gonna be honest here let me see if i could dated to 15,
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10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was a big grudge holder.
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I would, I would, the clients that pissed me off, I would not buy that product.
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I would look for opportunities to spear them.
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And I'm going to share a couple of those moments where I did get to what I call vindicate a grudge.
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And, but what I ultimately did learn was kind of like our,
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what you were saying up front, I'm carrying these hot coals around waiting to
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throw them at somebody and burning my hand in the process, you know,
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and it just, but on the other hand, one of the things I want to talk to about
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today is, are grudges bad?
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Because if you look what Michael Jordan did with grudges, he was renowned.
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In fact, he had the same thing.
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He had that famous quote that now has become a meme. I took that personally.
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Everything he takes personally. And it really, it sends him to a different level of performance.
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So maybe there's something valuable behind a grudge too. Yeah.
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Yeah. I would absolutely agree with that.
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What do you want to do? You want to talk about some of our key grudges?
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Yeah, I'm curious to hear yours, man, because you seem pretty definitive about
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it. Mine are a little bit more generic.
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Well, I will tell you the kind of biggest grudge, biggest chip on my shoulder.
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And I'm going to use these words interchangeably.
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You know, the idea of, you know, the hatred, the grudge, anger,
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you know, they all mean the same thing for the purposes of today.
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The biggest grudge that I have was formed while I was at Ketchum.
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And it's a grudge against FedEx for a very specific reason. And I'll tell you
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the story as succinctly as possible.
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FedEx was, for more than 25 years, a cornerstone client.
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I watched FedEx grow while I was a junior account guy.
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I worked on the business personally with some great minds.
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You know, people like Chris Atkins, people like Rob Flaherty.
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You know, even the today's CEO of Ketchum, Pam Norman, was a key player on that
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business for years and years and years.
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And not too long into my second go around at Ketchum, they decided to put the business up for review.
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And i wasn't privy to the whys and
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and wherefores but you know i led creative for
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the second pitch and i think
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we did a good job okay i don't think we blew them out of the water i you know
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having worked on the business for so long even bringing in new people you know
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that can be a struggle you know after 25 years what new things do we have to
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say about this client and share about the place that they're in,
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but I thought it was solid.
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I think it was certainly in the ballpark of, unless somebody else came in and
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just blew the doors off, it was in the ballpark of being able to retain the business.
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Well, we didn't retain the business. Ouch. And it was sad. It was depressing.
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Just the number of man hours that went into this pitch and how important it
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was to us and the dollars we had spent on this pitch, all the things we say
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about all these ridiculous pitches.
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I don't hold a grudge against them because we lost the business.
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I hold a grudge against them
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because we had come to learn
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not long after the decision was made that
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they were never considering us to retain
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the business it was never something
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that we had a chance we could have given them
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the best pitch in history yeah yes and
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and to say well listen you guys you know
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we weren't going to do the business anyway and to let us
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go through what we went through yeah it
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was so fucking selfish yeah and
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so fucking just just no
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regard for for for other
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people's time and effort you know no humanity
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in it at all and to this day
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i will not use fedex to
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send anything i will always choose i'd rather
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get something four days later using the post
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office and you know running the works of them losing it
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than i would getting something via fedex i absolutely fucking can't stand them
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and i i i it would be forever for me to get rid of that grudge my only hope
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my only salvation is that at some point i'm able to do work for UPSed.
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And I can, I can put that grudge into it. You've really thought about this.
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Well, yeah. Yeah. I like, I fucking can't stand those people.
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You don't have weapons, do you? Anything laying around at home that could be considered a weapon?
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Just a, you know, razor sharp way.
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Very good. no that's that's my biggest one and you know because i feel like
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i got fucked over personally and
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professionally yeah so i i i am like i am fucking done with those guys and,
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professionally and personally. Yeah.
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You know, I think we could probably fill a wheelbarrow full for the vintage
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reference of clients like that.
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Mine would have been, now that you mentioned that Royal Caribbean, same thing.
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They bring us in, they want to hear what we're going to do for their annual program.
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We put in so many hours diligently working our asses off to create a really
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inspiring, you know, program for them for the coming year.
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And like you said, When you're working for a brand, you know,
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it's tough to dig deeper and go, okay, what haven't we talked to them about?
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What new things can we bring to the table?
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It's even more daunting from that respect because you want to make sure that
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you're really illustrating your constant relevantness in the industry and how
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you think. Anyway, put this whole thing together.
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And at the end of that presentation, they essentially pretty much almost directly
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said, yeah, we're opening this up to other pitches. So now they said,
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and here's your challenge.
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So now not only did we have our team killing themselves over the annual program that they asked for,
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now we got to redo it, bring everybody together to redo this new challenge to
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bring everybody together and redo the pitch. And we lost it.
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And I frankly think, I think they lost interest in us. What we had heard before
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we got the account is they switch accounts every two years anyway.
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And sure enough, we were at the two-year mark plus.
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So whoever has the Royal Caribbean business in terms of an agency, if it's two years.
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You're on the clock. Yeah, yeah. I hope you don't count on that parking space
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being there the next time you drive over.
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But, you know, and so I hold a grudge against them because my grudges are centered in disrespect.
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I found that was very disrespectful to the
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team to the effort to the just just just man
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or woman up and just say guys you blew it and we have no interest in working
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with you i i will take that all day long versus no we're not sure and you know
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it's an even playing field oh bullshit you know just be honest with us and tell
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us if you're going to kick us to the curb or not yeah i just,
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Yeah, I'm getting angry just thinking about us. Me too.
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Like I'm back in that space. Dude, just kind of a footnote to that.
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I was, after Royal Caribbean had moved on, I was sending them emails.
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Anytime something happened in the media, I would send an email to the lead person over there.
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And I don't know if it's because I had such disdain for them that I can't remember the name.
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But, because I'm not being coy here, I just don't remember the name.
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And anyway, I would send and say, hey, while you guys are out there talking
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about your new discounts, you missed an opportunity to do this, to do this, to do this.
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And finally, and I was sending it to him. And then I finally get a call from
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someone very important at Burson who's like.
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Fucking knock it off. We still have this account in our London office and it's
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a fairly sizable account there.
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So shut the fuck up and stop being such a little baby about it.
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And everybody else has accepted it.
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And so I did, I just, I don't bother them anymore.
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I know I, I did. I haven't bothered them in a while anyway.
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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah. I don't have a lot of personal grudges in this industry.
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I i have a few but not
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a lot of people who i'm like i hate
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this fucking person and i'm never working with them again and
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i'm going to actively try to use my
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power to make them miserable i i don't have a lot of
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that there there's certainly plenty of
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people who have it's to me off a great
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deal but they're they're usually those are
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usually like i guess they just burn out more
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quickly than than some of the other than some of
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the these these bigger picture grudges i and
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that is what i aspire to but as
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of about three weeks ago i let one of my grudges go
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on linkedin weighing in on somebody else's conversation that i wasn't even invited
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to and just happened to come across it on and my what i realized is my deep-seated
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grudge and i expressed it on this call is to all ad-dude creatives or ad-women creatives now.
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Both of them, I hold them both with equal disdain because I don't like the big C creatives.
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And what the conversation I weighed in on was with John O'Keefe,
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who was the former chief creative officer for all of WPP.
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And what John was doing was calling out another creative.
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For stealing the notion that he came up with the idea of the keep walking campaign for Johnny Walker.
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And this guy was talking about how he came up with this idea and how he passed it on.
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And John O'Keefe weighs in with like a five paragraph, six paragraph reply.
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That's funny. Revisionist history. You didn't do that.
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This is that you're making things up. So grab the popcorn
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quote he said grab the popcorn because this is going to
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get ugly basically and he rips this guy for stealing his
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idea and other creators bail on and
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say yeah you didn't do this and that's this
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and it was our idea we and i basically said you know what here's a thought why
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don't you all keep walking so i can't hear this whining anymore basically and
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and whining over a 25 year old campaign you bunch of fucking pieces of shit
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this is why i hated big c creatives my whole career i spent,
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you know, preaching against you, you losers.
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And I mean, I'm being a little bit much more direct than I was in my email.
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I was a little more eloquent.
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And I had one dude, John O'Keefe said, oh, something like, oh,
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aren't you the new Ralph Waldo Emerson or something like that?
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He named a poet. I can't remember who he named.
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And I'm like, no. Oh, he said, are you related
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to this poet and i said no but i think he stole my ideas
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and and oh my
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god dude well so you were coming in fucking hot you
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were guns blazing what and and okay so let
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me say that so this is a and forgive me for talking so much but this is a long-winded
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point when i was done and i went back and i weighed in and i saw some people
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of course nobody liked my comment of course they all like you know i was the
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persona non gratis on on gratis on this thread and then i went back and read
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it and went, that was dumb.
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Well, I, what did I get out of it? Absolutely nothing.
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Just more people calling me a piece of shit and saying, and one guy just weighed
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in and he goes, dude, seriously, I think it's fair that people should defend
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where ideas came from. And he made it a very eloquent point.
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And, and it made me even look more unhinged because he was so together.
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So be careful with that acting on those grudges, I guess.
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Well, I think that comes to the point of this podcast is, you know,
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are grudges always a bad thing?
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And I would say no. I think grudges can be bad. They can be disruptive.
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You know, they can, if you're harping on them over time, they can certainly
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add to your stress. It can cause you to make some poor decisions that you might not otherwise make.
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But, you know, for me, I do really believe in the idea of anger bringing focus in the short term.
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Because if you think about it, and you can, your listeners are going to either
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agree with this point or you're going to call it that the most bullshit thing I've ever heard.
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You know we talk about that we've talked about this on a couple of dipping episodes
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right every great campaign starts with what problem are you trying to solve
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well you hate your problem.
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You know maybe not at the beginning but you you hate that
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problem it's something you want to change it's something you want to get rid of.
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Even if it's on behalf of a client right so the bigger
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the problem the greater the anger the more
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focus it brings so i've always believed
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that when you can bring that
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kind of that kind of anger and that
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emotion into the creative process in the
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up front it's it's a huge tool and
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i don't think people talk about it enough yeah and
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you know what dude you and i know i don't think that's bullshit at
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all i think you and i netted in in the same general territory
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and i was trying to even think of the name what would you call that
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it's like competitive grudges are good because if
00:17:18.849 --> 00:17:21.749
you look at the beatles the stones and and
00:17:21.749 --> 00:17:24.949
the beast boys they were they were always
00:17:24.949 --> 00:17:28.089
after as soon as one came i was just listening to paul mccartney that's
00:17:28.089 --> 00:17:31.369
why he said as soon as they came out with something they'd go damn it how
00:17:31.369 --> 00:17:34.349
did they do that holy shit and they
00:17:34.349 --> 00:17:37.169
would go back to the studio and say and listen to it and say how
00:17:37.169 --> 00:17:40.429
do we do you know i forget what beach boys their famous
00:17:40.429 --> 00:17:43.589
album was with brian wilson house pet sounds
00:17:43.589 --> 00:17:46.629
mccartney said when he heard that he had an early tape
00:17:46.629 --> 00:17:49.669
of it he took it over to lennon and said dude what the
00:17:49.669 --> 00:17:52.529
fuck look at what these guys this can't happen on
00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:55.289
our watch bro we got to get to the studio you know
00:17:55.289 --> 00:17:58.289
and then after that then it was out to sergeant pepper
00:17:58.289 --> 00:18:03.529
correct that's right yeah yeah yeah yeah so there is value to that i think where
00:18:03.529 --> 00:18:08.949
that where what what happens is uh and and some of the studies show that the.
00:18:08.949 --> 00:18:12.609
It becomes the grudge becomes the obsession and then you can't think of anything.
00:18:12.609 --> 00:18:17.549
But anger and there's no movement behind it other than right fuck this person over.
00:18:17.809 --> 00:18:21.669
And that's the wrong, wrong creative path to take. You know,
00:18:21.969 --> 00:18:24.709
if you're like, how do I beat them in this pitch? That's different.
00:18:25.382 --> 00:18:33.942
So let me ask you this. Do you think that there are people out there that hold grudges against you?
00:18:34.162 --> 00:18:40.442
Not people who you've pissed off once or twice or a few times or that you kept on butting heads with.
00:18:40.622 --> 00:18:43.802
But like, do you think there are people who fucking just like,
00:18:44.002 --> 00:18:49.002
oh man, I hate Jeremy? Oh, no, that's different.
00:18:50.102 --> 00:18:56.302
There are a lot of hate Jeremy's out there. No, I would say that here's, here's what I would say.
00:18:56.702 --> 00:19:01.802
Short answer. No, I don't think, because I will say this about me.
00:19:02.062 --> 00:19:06.482
I was pretty quick when I was being a dick. I was pretty damn quick to call
00:19:06.482 --> 00:19:08.142
myself out as being a dick.
00:19:08.282 --> 00:19:12.662
I have no problem with that because I know I can be irritating. I can go over the top.
00:19:12.882 --> 00:19:16.902
I can say things I, that in the heat of the moment that, that come out and,
00:19:17.022 --> 00:19:21.302
and, and I'm, I'm pretty good at doubling back or even at in the moment saying
00:19:21.302 --> 00:19:23.722
that was uncanny. cool. And I'm calling myself out.
00:19:24.062 --> 00:19:28.942
So if they're out there, I don't know about them. And I would think maybe I would.
00:19:29.302 --> 00:19:33.302
But having said that, I think whenever you manage a lot of people,
00:19:33.442 --> 00:19:36.922
and there was a time I was managing a fairly good number of people,
00:19:37.062 --> 00:19:42.002
I don't mean hundreds, but somebody is going to not like you as a boss because
00:19:42.002 --> 00:19:43.782
you're not going to be able to give them the raise.
00:19:43.942 --> 00:19:45.962
You're not going to give them the promotion they think they deserve.
00:19:46.382 --> 00:19:49.802
You're going to have to let them go because the money's not coming in.
00:19:50.022 --> 00:19:55.562
And I think you get residual grudges from that. I don't know.
00:19:56.062 --> 00:20:00.282
So I would say, because I've experienced that myself, I'm like,
00:20:00.402 --> 00:20:03.522
seriously, I busted my ass for you guys and you're letting me go?
00:20:03.742 --> 00:20:07.762
All right, fine. Now, whenever I see you, you're in my crosshairs.
00:20:07.882 --> 00:20:11.902
Let me grab these hot coals and carrying them around, carrying them around with me for a while.
00:20:12.562 --> 00:20:15.802
Right. No, that makes sense. That's fair. That's fair.
00:20:16.462 --> 00:20:23.422
See, I feel like I want people to hold grudges against me. Like I want that.
00:20:24.383 --> 00:20:27.303
And, you know, why is it you want that?
00:20:27.803 --> 00:20:30.783
I, huh? Why do you want grudges held against you?
00:20:31.063 --> 00:20:38.823
You know, I was thinking about telling this story and I wasn't going to at first
00:20:38.823 --> 00:20:44.483
because it's really a story where like, I'm telling you how cool I am.
00:20:44.963 --> 00:20:50.063
Right. Yeah. And it's, it's about you. Oh God. Actually.
00:20:50.783 --> 00:20:54.343
Yeah. Okay. so i'm gonna.
00:20:54.343 --> 00:20:57.183
I will get to this now are people gonna now now will
00:20:57.183 --> 00:21:01.383
people hold grudges against me oh my god
00:21:01.383 --> 00:21:04.603
that's right i do hate that guy i had forgotten thanks
00:21:04.603 --> 00:21:07.563
for reminding me no and and and
00:21:07.563 --> 00:21:10.243
okay so this is where this is
00:21:10.243 --> 00:21:13.423
where this comes from okay and this is this is actually
00:21:13.423 --> 00:21:16.303
a huge turning point in
00:21:16.303 --> 00:21:19.823
my life in my professional life i had
00:21:19.823 --> 00:21:23.043
left conan wolf for catch them yeah okay
00:21:23.043 --> 00:21:26.283
i've been there for about i would say 18
00:21:26.283 --> 00:21:30.463
months yeah and we were
00:21:30.463 --> 00:21:33.663
in a new business pitch and you
00:21:33.663 --> 00:21:37.143
may know what i'm about to say yeah yeah uh you
00:21:37.143 --> 00:21:40.043
we were pitching hershey oh no
00:21:40.043 --> 00:21:42.783
i don't know no no i don't remember that oh okay well i'm gonna
00:21:42.783 --> 00:21:46.323
want to know what you were trying you were you thought this was okay we
00:21:46.323 --> 00:21:50.423
were pitching hershey and i have
00:21:50.423 --> 00:21:53.123
a funny story ready to tell about that that i'll tell him another time okay so we were
00:21:53.123 --> 00:21:55.963
pitching hershey and we did a really good
00:21:55.963 --> 00:21:59.123
job like we knew like this was
00:21:59.123 --> 00:22:01.783
a great pitch this is a great pitch we you know
00:22:01.783 --> 00:22:08.283
we may lose this but man we fucking we we killed that pitch okay and we were
00:22:08.283 --> 00:22:19.663
walking out of hershey's building and who do we see but the conan wolf gang led by jeremy baca.
00:22:20.899 --> 00:22:24.399
Hey man how's it going dude oh yeah yeah get in there all right man good luck.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.079
And you called me later i don't
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.419
know if you remember this do you remember this no i don't you you
00:22:32.419 --> 00:22:35.479
called me later after this
00:22:35.479 --> 00:22:38.179
is after we had won the pitch we won you know this
00:22:38.179 --> 00:22:41.059
is this is like a couple months later yeah we'd won the pitch it
00:22:41.059 --> 00:22:44.099
had been announced and you gave
00:22:44.099 --> 00:22:47.739
me one of the greatest compliments of my
00:22:47.739 --> 00:22:57.679
career and you said to me i saw you walking out of the pitch and i said to myself
00:22:57.679 --> 00:23:05.499
fuck levy's in that pitch it was that pitch that levy's in that pitch oh yes yes
00:23:05.739 --> 00:23:14.699
yes and and it it led to something that i've i've i've carried around with me,
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.079
for years as part of my you know like
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.099
kind of core to my belief system and what
00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:25.779
i told you i wrote this in a credo for for msl
00:23:25.779 --> 00:23:28.519
and this is why i knew i wasn't going to last in
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:32.619
msl i was like a month in and i shared this with diana no disrespect intended
00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:35.499
i shared with diana she's like no no we want to say that we want to say this
00:23:35.499 --> 00:23:39.199
other thing i'm like oh we are not on the same page i'm like okay great we'll
00:23:39.199 --> 00:23:42.319
say this other thing but like this is not going to be good this is this is going
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:48.399
to end poorly at some point and what what i said was we want creative.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:54.679
That makes our clients fall head over heels in love with us,
00:23:55.513 --> 00:23:58.453
and makes our competition hate us
00:23:58.453 --> 00:24:01.613
and she said
00:24:01.613 --> 00:24:04.573
and she had a point like i'm not i'm not saying this is wrong
00:24:04.573 --> 00:24:07.453
i'm saying like no no no no no we we don't want
00:24:07.453 --> 00:24:10.513
you know them to hate us we just want them to be jealous of
00:24:10.513 --> 00:24:13.893
us and again okay i'll acquiesce
00:24:13.893 --> 00:24:17.113
this is not the hill i'm gonna die on especially you know four weeks
00:24:17.113 --> 00:24:19.893
into my fucking tenure but coming out
00:24:19.893 --> 00:24:22.733
of that i'm like no i don't care if you're
00:24:22.733 --> 00:24:25.733
jealous of me you know that's that's that's schoolyard
00:24:25.733 --> 00:24:28.453
bullshit i want you to fucking hate me
00:24:28.453 --> 00:24:31.153
i want i want to walk out of a pitch or i want
00:24:31.153 --> 00:24:34.253
you to hear my name and other creatives like oh
00:24:34.253 --> 00:24:37.193
man fuck that guy that guy's an asshole no we gotta beat that
00:24:37.193 --> 00:24:40.333
guy we got like i want to be the locus of your
00:24:40.333 --> 00:24:43.813
hatred i want to be centered to that because i
00:24:43.813 --> 00:24:46.833
know that it means that i'm still doing
00:24:46.833 --> 00:24:49.953
great like that is a great benchmark how many
00:24:49.953 --> 00:24:53.153
of how many of the people that i'm competing against
00:24:53.153 --> 00:24:56.333
hate my fucking guts because of how
00:24:56.333 --> 00:25:02.273
good i am yes that that to me that i know that listen the name of the podcast
00:25:02.273 --> 00:25:08.473
is ugly irresponsible and childish yes and what i just shared you know all three
00:25:08.473 --> 00:25:15.233
of those things are true it's still the way i feel and it's powered me through a lot of things.
00:25:15.513 --> 00:25:18.673
So I really do believe in the power of grudges.
00:25:20.033 --> 00:25:24.953
I see. Here's the thing about that. That's easy. That's easy to argue against,
00:25:25.093 --> 00:25:27.533
right? Saying, well, you don't want people to hate you.
00:25:27.733 --> 00:25:30.733
And there's too much hate in the world, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:25:31.093 --> 00:25:34.473
And they are. They are all missing the point. The very word.
00:25:35.456 --> 00:25:40.336
Draws you to it and makes you go, what did you do that made people hate you?
00:25:40.456 --> 00:25:41.836
What could you have possibly have done?
00:25:41.996 --> 00:25:45.716
I don't know if you saw that whole campaign by what's that jeweler's name, Jerry?
00:25:46.216 --> 00:25:51.016
I hate you, Jerry, or it's a- You talking about Jared?
00:25:51.796 --> 00:25:58.236
No, no, no. There's a whole campaign, I hate you, Jerry something, and he's a jeweler.
00:25:58.476 --> 00:26:03.416
And that's their tagline. I hate you about this jeweler because he undercuts
00:26:03.416 --> 00:26:06.076
everybody's prices. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
00:26:06.216 --> 00:26:09.436
I don't remember. I don't remember his name. I hate you.
00:26:10.316 --> 00:26:14.156
It's, it's, it's probably around there somewhere online, but I,
00:26:14.176 --> 00:26:19.696
I, I like the notion of, of hate because I think it can, and the grudges.
00:26:19.696 --> 00:26:25.036
And I, I think it can come from a place that productively propels you forward
00:26:25.036 --> 00:26:28.056
if it's, if, if it's applied correctly.
00:26:28.696 --> 00:26:33.076
And so I see, I see what you're, you're saying in terms of that regard.
00:26:33.676 --> 00:26:37.876
I mean, so many people, and you know, if you think about just,
00:26:37.976 --> 00:26:42.436
just in terms of history, I don't know if you're familiar with Rudolph and Adolf Dossler.
00:26:42.676 --> 00:26:46.976
Does that, does that tend to spark a thought?
00:26:47.376 --> 00:26:50.456
Rudolph and Adolf Dossler. Yes.
00:26:50.616 --> 00:26:57.036
In fact, these two brothers ran the Dossler shoe company back in post-World War II.
00:26:58.376 --> 00:27:03.476
And Rudy loved working there with his brother It was a fairly successful shoe
00:27:03.476 --> 00:27:06.496
company Anyway, they had a falling out It's a long story,
00:27:07.376 --> 00:27:12.836
But one of the brothers, Adi, decided he was going to stay Adolf,
00:27:12.936 --> 00:27:17.156
his short name was Adi He decided he was going to change the name of the company
00:27:17.156 --> 00:27:20.096
And start another company called Adidas,
00:27:20.676 --> 00:27:24.596
And his brother's like, fuck you I'm literally going to go across the river
00:27:24.596 --> 00:27:28.896
and create something that competes with you. And the name of that company is Puma.
00:27:29.356 --> 00:27:36.076
And so these two brothers that were both in a shoe company, a grudge led to
00:27:36.076 --> 00:27:37.716
two pretty awesome shoe companies.
00:27:38.176 --> 00:27:41.316
I did not know this story. Yes. Yes.
00:27:41.536 --> 00:27:48.896
And there are, by the way, there are a lot of examples of these unfolding grudges that lead to,
00:27:49.416 --> 00:27:52.176
listen, not to go back to Paul McCartney, but
00:27:52.176 --> 00:27:55.156
he had a grudge with Lennon who was writing these
00:27:55.156 --> 00:28:00.116
things Both of them were Pretty open about that especially after Lennon's death
00:28:00.116 --> 00:28:04.756
Paul McCartney Had no problem saying yeah sometimes We'd say he didn't see my
00:28:04.756 --> 00:28:08.856
way I didn't see His fuck you fuck you the Beatles Break up that's not the only
00:28:08.856 --> 00:28:12.996
reason But they went off to create some really cool Music on their own.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:19.299
So, yeah, listen, there's, there's a line of thinking, and I don't recall the
00:28:19.299 --> 00:28:21.199
author of this kind of quote,
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:27.679
but there's a line of thinking that the best creative work on the planet,
00:28:27.919 --> 00:28:29.419
anything from, you know,
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:35.939
painting to music, to novels, to movies, to marketing shit that we talk about
00:28:35.939 --> 00:28:39.019
comes from us. It comes from pain.
00:28:39.399 --> 00:28:44.079
Yeah. Right. It comes from pain. It could be, you know, romantic pain.
00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:47.299
It could be, you know, it could be heartbreak. It could be loss.
00:28:47.619 --> 00:28:55.179
It could be, you know, a grudge. So the idea that Lennon and McCartney held
00:28:55.179 --> 00:28:59.859
a grudge, held these grudges against each other, I mean, that shouldn't be at
00:28:59.859 --> 00:29:01.379
all surprising to anybody.
00:29:01.639 --> 00:29:04.739
Given the, you know, if you believe in the first part of that story.
00:29:05.299 --> 00:29:07.599
Then the second part of that story makes perfect sense.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:10.619
You know of course they they held
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:13.819
grudges because where else are they going to get all this
00:29:13.819 --> 00:29:18.119
creative energy from it doesn't just come out of the air and unfortunately you
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.239
know for me it doesn't just you know come out of the you know the hash pipe
00:29:22.239 --> 00:29:27.679
it you know it has to come from somewhere and i think these grudges absolutely
00:29:27.679 --> 00:29:33.539
add to the creative process and and and so dude Absolutely.
00:29:33.999 --> 00:29:38.859
And I think, you know, it's grudge slash competitive spirit.
00:29:39.379 --> 00:29:44.079
Say how you say how you want. But Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier.
00:29:44.739 --> 00:29:49.779
Ted Williams versus Joe DiMaggio, Billy Martin and Steinbrenner, right?
00:29:50.259 --> 00:29:53.099
Kobe and Shaq. I don't know.
00:29:53.199 --> 00:29:58.219
Were these grudges, quote unquote, or I mean, were these grudges,
00:29:58.579 --> 00:30:02.079
Tanya Harding, I'm going to bust your kneecap kind of grudge?
00:30:02.179 --> 00:30:10.199
Or were they just basically competitive grudges that raised the bar on both sides?
00:30:11.025 --> 00:30:13.805
The performance bar i don't know it's i i
00:30:13.805 --> 00:30:16.605
think no i i i don't think it's a yes or
00:30:16.605 --> 00:30:20.405
no i think there's probably a scale that starts
00:30:20.405 --> 00:30:23.945
with friendly competition where
00:30:23.945 --> 00:30:29.825
you know i want both the both of us to succeed and ends with i am going to murder
00:30:29.825 --> 00:30:35.085
you in broad daylight if i ever see you yes and and i think that the farther
00:30:35.085 --> 00:30:43.365
we get to the right of that the greater the opportunity for amazing creative to be born and take hold.
00:30:44.105 --> 00:30:49.585
Yes. And I think the difference for me and that competitive grudge is the word
00:30:49.585 --> 00:30:51.885
competitive in there is I want to beat you.
00:30:52.385 --> 00:30:55.545
The word grudge on its own is I don't like you.
00:30:55.725 --> 00:30:59.185
You're no good. You're a scumbag, but I'm not doing anything about it.
00:30:59.265 --> 00:31:01.105
I'm just, I'm just not talking to you.
00:31:01.225 --> 00:31:03.705
You're no longer my friend. I'm not going to buy your product.
00:31:03.825 --> 00:31:05.505
That does nothing for anybody.
00:31:05.965 --> 00:31:08.345
But when you channel that in a
00:31:08.345 --> 00:31:14.585
productive way, that then I would say a competitive grudge has its value.
00:31:15.545 --> 00:31:21.385
Wow. All right. Just two things. One, because I know people are out there.
00:31:21.645 --> 00:31:26.445
We always try to, Mark and I always talk about also trying to leave somebody
00:31:26.445 --> 00:31:27.985
some things that they can do.
00:31:28.925 --> 00:31:35.565
What do you do when you have a grudge? Are there ways to overcome that grudge?
00:31:35.805 --> 00:31:39.965
So according to psychologists and research, One of the first things you're supposed
00:31:39.965 --> 00:31:43.745
to do is recognize your emotions, identify and validate the hurt,
00:31:44.265 --> 00:31:48.345
validate the hurt, Mark, the anger or resentment that you're feeling.
00:31:48.705 --> 00:31:53.905
And then objectively, they say to sit back and assess what happened.
00:31:54.065 --> 00:31:59.105
Not just these people are a piece of shit, but what did I do or not do?
00:31:59.105 --> 00:32:01.985
So I'm going to use, I'm going to call out myself on Royal Caribbean.
00:32:02.365 --> 00:32:05.605
What I didn't do is ever call them back and say, Hey, what happened here?
00:32:05.705 --> 00:32:07.945
Why did you guys have us do that whole thing again?
00:32:08.165 --> 00:32:13.625
Were you unhappy? I never did any of that. They just became my target of my grudge.
00:32:14.345 --> 00:32:17.965
So I, I, I think that's, I think there's a lot of truth there.
00:32:18.425 --> 00:32:23.205
I will tell you, and, and many people may laugh at this next statement, but I swear this is true.
00:32:23.525 --> 00:32:28.785
I, I do get very introspective around my failures and you know,
00:32:28.965 --> 00:32:33.165
what, what role did I play in this? You know, how could I have acted better?
00:32:33.305 --> 00:32:35.525
So I, I agree with you.
00:32:35.785 --> 00:32:41.145
I don't, does that work? Do you think with the most egregious of actions?
00:32:41.465 --> 00:32:43.745
Like, like let's go back to the FedEx example.
00:32:44.185 --> 00:32:50.665
I, I don't know if there's anything that would have short circuited that,
00:32:50.885 --> 00:32:53.605
that shitty outcome. Yeah.
00:32:54.165 --> 00:32:57.525
Yeah. So I think, I think there's, I think there's truth to that.
00:32:57.665 --> 00:33:02.105
I also think, you know in terms of validating you know you make a really good
00:33:02.105 --> 00:33:06.105
point because you have to allow yourself right to to experience these emotions
00:33:06.105 --> 00:33:08.505
i don't know if that helps or hurts man.
00:33:09.288 --> 00:33:14.388
I don't know. For me, it does. Because whenever I take their perspective,
00:33:14.568 --> 00:33:17.448
and I honestly try and take the other person's perspective,
00:33:17.988 --> 00:33:23.228
and every time I've done that, and I know I try not to use such finite words
00:33:23.228 --> 00:33:27.508
as every, but at least for me, at a minimum, it makes me go,
00:33:27.848 --> 00:33:31.588
okay, I could see where they were coming from, still pieces of shit,
00:33:31.748 --> 00:33:33.128
but I get how they got there.
00:33:33.128 --> 00:33:37.228
It makes it a little easier for me to understand and appreciate.
00:33:37.448 --> 00:33:44.748
And that generally works well for me. Uh, if I honestly put myself in that position, that's fair.
00:33:45.108 --> 00:33:47.688
I think it's completely fair. And now I want to ask you one,
00:33:47.748 --> 00:33:50.688
one last thing, cause I know we're coming up on it here, but have you ever,
00:33:50.808 --> 00:33:52.628
what I call vindicated a grudge?
00:33:52.768 --> 00:33:58.168
I mean, got that grudge person you're in front of you or that grudge authority
00:33:58.168 --> 00:34:00.388
in front of you and said, Hey,
00:34:00.968 --> 00:34:05.168
you know, through the hot coal, adam that you've been carrying around for a
00:34:05.168 --> 00:34:09.288
year were you ever able to vindicate a grudge.
00:34:12.468 --> 00:34:14.988
Unfortunately the answer is no,
00:34:17.048 --> 00:34:20.568
plenty of times i would have liked to there are
00:34:20.568 --> 00:34:26.848
i can think of at least a few times where i've had the opportunity to do that
00:34:26.848 --> 00:34:32.648
and this is going to sound so like speaking of validation This is going to sound
00:34:32.648 --> 00:34:37.268
like it completely invalidates everything we've been talking about for the last half hour.
00:34:37.448 --> 00:34:42.648
But it's true that when faced with those moments,
00:34:43.048 --> 00:34:52.208
my Buddhism mentality kicks in and I hear the words that I have said to other
00:34:52.208 --> 00:34:55.488
people over and over and over again,
00:34:56.068 --> 00:35:00.648
live a life of kindness and compassion.
00:35:02.028 --> 00:35:12.388
So I will tell you that if that person at FedEx who, you know, kind of screwed us.
00:35:13.508 --> 00:35:19.268
If they were face to face with us, there is a small chance that I would say
00:35:19.268 --> 00:35:23.428
like, Hey, do you remember that time we were in this pitch and this happened?
00:35:23.628 --> 00:35:28.008
What was going on? Like, you know, to see if there was any backstory, but I, I,
00:35:28.436 --> 00:35:32.516
when it comes to being vindictive yeah
00:35:32.516 --> 00:35:35.596
i talk a good game yes yes
00:35:35.596 --> 00:35:38.856
but the fact of the matter is i don't pull
00:35:38.856 --> 00:35:41.616
the trigger when asked and at
00:35:41.616 --> 00:35:44.676
any time that there there have been you know one or
00:35:44.676 --> 00:35:47.696
two times in my life where i have
00:35:47.696 --> 00:35:50.816
been nasty where i've got where i've i've gone
00:35:50.816 --> 00:35:54.296
back at this person and be nasty and afterwards i
00:35:54.296 --> 00:35:57.176
just feel like shit yes you know
00:35:57.176 --> 00:36:00.356
because i want to be a better person and okay
00:36:00.356 --> 00:36:03.976
here's another great example of me failing at that so we
00:36:03.976 --> 00:36:08.596
should just title this episode talking out of both sides of his mouth because
00:36:08.596 --> 00:36:12.896
i feel like that's what i'm doing i'm trying to be completely honest and vulnerable
00:36:12.896 --> 00:36:20.556
here but that's to answer your question no i i haven't because Because I actually
00:36:20.556 --> 00:36:23.056
try to be nicer than that.
00:36:23.516 --> 00:36:28.956
Well, just in terms of the research, I'm just quoting here, the grudge doesn't
00:36:28.956 --> 00:36:32.036
solve your problem and is highly unlikely to make you feel better.
00:36:32.036 --> 00:36:36.176
And research shows that fixating on negative emotions rather than resolving
00:36:36.176 --> 00:36:42.136
them is also harmful because it makes this unpleasant feeling stick with you
00:36:42.136 --> 00:36:47.076
and it substantially erodes your well-being on an ongoing basis because you're
00:36:47.076 --> 00:36:48.696
in this loop of resentment, bitterness.
00:36:49.176 --> 00:36:52.956
Hopelessness, and enragement, which does no good.
00:36:53.236 --> 00:36:57.576
However, having said that, I did have a vindicated grudge moment.
00:36:57.576 --> 00:37:01.696
And there was a person I worked with, I won't even name the company just for
00:37:01.696 --> 00:37:05.076
a variety of reasons, but, and I worked with her peripherally,
00:37:05.356 --> 00:37:11.156
treated me and our team like shit, just like shit, just, and I don't mean they didn't take our ideas.
00:37:11.396 --> 00:37:16.616
I mean, they were rude and disrespectful and called you out publicly and,
00:37:16.616 --> 00:37:18.436
and just really not cool.
00:37:19.456 --> 00:37:25.896
And finally, I left that agency and I subsequently was no longer working on that account, but,
00:37:26.365 --> 00:37:30.865
But lo and behold, two years later at a gathering, this party,
00:37:30.985 --> 00:37:32.865
I don't even know whose it was or where it was.
00:37:33.525 --> 00:37:37.845
And there she is. There's this woman at this little intimate gathering,
00:37:38.065 --> 00:37:41.045
about 30 people, 25, 30, I guess not so intimate.
00:37:41.425 --> 00:37:45.985
But anyway, I worked my way over to this woman who's standing with four other
00:37:45.985 --> 00:37:48.725
people. And I elbow my way into this conversation.
00:37:49.225 --> 00:37:53.245
And they're like, hey, Jeremy, how are you doing? And they're like, this is so-and-so.
00:37:53.485 --> 00:37:56.425
And I said, oh, I know who that is. I said you worked
00:37:56.425 --> 00:37:59.085
at this company and I name it and I said you did this and
00:37:59.085 --> 00:38:01.985
this and this she goes oh my god did I did you work there I
00:38:01.985 --> 00:38:04.785
said yeah I was with the agency who worked for you and you
00:38:04.785 --> 00:38:07.785
treated us you treated us pretty bad I must be honest
00:38:07.785 --> 00:38:13.905
and that whole circle just went quiet and she sort of laughed like I was joking
00:38:13.905 --> 00:38:17.485
and I'm just staring at her I said I'm just being honest you know I just thought
00:38:17.485 --> 00:38:23.485
you should know and there she's like oh well well you know it's hard I see I
00:38:23.485 --> 00:38:25.145
don't remember that. It must've been a bad day.
00:38:25.305 --> 00:38:29.625
And it just kind of slept at all. And I just sat there in that ugliness and
00:38:29.625 --> 00:38:33.685
uncomfortableness and walked away feeling pretty damn good.
00:38:33.785 --> 00:38:38.365
Actually, I felt pretty good about myself and never, never gave it a second thought.
00:38:38.545 --> 00:38:40.865
That was my one moment of vindication.
00:38:42.245 --> 00:38:48.945
You know, like, and I'll name a name here. When I resigned at Cone Wolf to go
00:38:48.945 --> 00:38:52.545
back to catch up, I resigned to you. Of course, you were my boss.
00:38:54.025 --> 00:38:59.125
And five minutes after we get off the phone i get a note that donna imparato
00:38:59.125 --> 00:39:05.385
needs to see me immediately yes and i walk in her office i'm like hey how are
00:39:05.385 --> 00:39:11.865
you you know i know obviously i know what this is about and she said yes,
00:39:12.367 --> 00:39:15.547
You know, it's clear I haven't been happy here in a while.
00:39:16.147 --> 00:39:19.347
You mean you haven't been happy, not the CEO? Yes. Mark Leaney.
00:39:19.467 --> 00:39:21.907
Yes, me. Yes. Haven't been happy here in a while.
00:39:22.307 --> 00:39:24.807
You haven't been giving us your best work.
00:39:25.867 --> 00:39:30.067
So hack your bags and get the fuck out. You know, those are the words.
00:39:32.167 --> 00:39:40.427
Those were the words? Those are the words. And like she had me escorted out of the building.
00:39:40.607 --> 00:39:44.447
Yes, yes. and we traded after
00:39:44.447 --> 00:39:47.827
that some kind of nasty emails yeah you know
00:39:47.827 --> 00:39:51.807
threats back and forth that kind of thing but if
00:39:51.807 --> 00:39:55.087
i saw donna on the street today
00:39:55.087 --> 00:39:58.167
i would do nothing
00:39:58.167 --> 00:40:01.607
but go up and give her a big hug hi
00:40:01.607 --> 00:40:04.907
how have you been oh my god it's been so long we had
00:40:04.907 --> 00:40:07.567
some good times didn't late and ended poorly yeah who
00:40:07.567 --> 00:40:10.247
gives a fuck it's in the past let's let's you know
00:40:10.247 --> 00:40:13.167
how how are the kids like that's what i would
00:40:13.167 --> 00:40:16.067
do and i don't even know if that's what i would want
00:40:16.067 --> 00:40:21.147
to do as much as i know that's what i would do and i would be genuine about
00:40:21.147 --> 00:40:26.247
i'm not i'm not saying i would do this and then go tell everybody else what
00:40:26.247 --> 00:40:31.047
you know what a fucking asshole she is no that that's that that's what i would
00:40:31.047 --> 00:40:35.967
do i don't know what that says about me really because I don't think it makes me,
00:40:36.187 --> 00:40:41.467
oh, well, that means you're grown or you're a better person or you're an adult.
00:40:42.267 --> 00:40:44.667
I don't know what it says about me for the life of me.
00:40:45.289 --> 00:40:50.849
Holy fuck, this just became a therapy session. Jesus. If only we got paid like it.
00:40:51.369 --> 00:40:56.029
What the hell? You know what? And by the way, now we have to have Donna on here
00:40:56.029 --> 00:40:57.349
because I invited her on here.
00:40:57.569 --> 00:41:00.709
Because I guarantee you, she'd say, I said, what? Oh, my God.
00:41:00.729 --> 00:41:02.569
I don't remember that at all. What are you talking about?
00:41:03.209 --> 00:41:06.849
Mark, you want to go for a lobster dinner? I could just see it because she was
00:41:06.849 --> 00:41:08.489
definitely fierce in many ways.
00:41:08.669 --> 00:41:12.129
And then would just like, what? Oh, please. Iron back. We didn't have a problem with him.
00:41:12.129 --> 00:41:19.869
And by the way, by the way, when O'Brien left and he was my boss,
00:41:19.969 --> 00:41:23.309
he was my partner, he was, you know, he was amazing. You know,
00:41:23.369 --> 00:41:24.329
we did great work together.
00:41:24.609 --> 00:41:30.449
When he left, I was going, I was just going through the divorce.
00:41:30.589 --> 00:41:33.249
Like it was just happening in that moment.
00:41:33.549 --> 00:41:40.849
And Donna came into my office and said, hey, I'm really sorry you're going through a divorce, you fuck.
00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:44.029
No no no no no no okay
00:41:44.029 --> 00:41:48.329
this is gonna be pretty fucking funny okay so she
00:41:48.329 --> 00:41:51.449
she's like i listen i know michael is
00:41:51.449 --> 00:41:54.469
leaving i know you're upset i hope you're not leaving
00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:57.369
too and this is like two years before i actually
00:41:57.369 --> 00:42:00.249
left and i said no as a
00:42:00.249 --> 00:42:03.409
matter of fact i need all the stability in my
00:42:03.409 --> 00:42:06.809
life that i can get right now because my my
00:42:06.809 --> 00:42:09.649
personal life is falling apart i'm going through this you know
00:42:09.649 --> 00:42:13.569
a horrible divorce and she was so warm
00:42:13.569 --> 00:42:16.429
and kind and loving in that
00:42:16.429 --> 00:42:19.289
moment like it's going to be okay we're here
00:42:19.289 --> 00:42:25.509
for you all this stuff and it was wonderful and then i remember calling you
00:42:25.509 --> 00:42:35.129
and i said that donald was all warm and kind she was wait what i called new
00:42:35.129 --> 00:42:37.189
york and said Where's Donna? What have you done with her?
00:42:39.109 --> 00:42:43.009
So, yeah, there's, yeah, I don't know.
00:42:43.189 --> 00:42:47.229
I don't think, unlike our other things where we solved all the problems of the
00:42:47.229 --> 00:42:49.749
world on a particular topic, I don't know about this one.
00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:52.189
I think I need to do some work on this.
00:42:52.369 --> 00:42:57.229
And just boring postscript to that Mark Levy departure story.
00:42:57.549 --> 00:43:00.609
I crafted an email to send to the entire company.
00:43:00.609 --> 00:43:03.709
And but i had to they insisted of
00:43:03.709 --> 00:43:06.889
course letting human resources look at it so human resources
00:43:06.889 --> 00:43:09.809
looks at it and goes no no no you can't say this you shouldn't
00:43:09.809 --> 00:43:14.089
say that this makes us liable then legal looks at it then donna looked at it
00:43:14.089 --> 00:43:21.269
and this this whole thing was no longer my eloquent goodbye to you and heartfelt
00:43:21.269 --> 00:43:27.429
it became very un me sounding but i'm like whatever i gotta to send something
00:43:27.429 --> 00:43:28.989
to let people know you're moving on.
00:43:29.269 --> 00:43:34.469
I proceeded to send it out to the entire company with the entire chain of all
00:43:34.469 --> 00:43:37.149
the revisions and comments from everybody out,
00:43:37.907 --> 00:43:43.127
Wow. Thank you, my friend. Everybody weighing in about how you can't say this
00:43:43.127 --> 00:43:47.347
and we shouldn't say that. And he wasn't that way. And he did this well.
00:43:47.487 --> 00:43:49.667
And this is boring. Just the whole string of it.
00:43:49.967 --> 00:43:57.247
And the head of HR came screaming down the hall, yelling, retract,
00:43:57.887 --> 00:43:59.687
retract, push, retract.
00:44:02.867 --> 00:44:07.507
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. A recall or whatever it was back then. Yeah.
00:44:07.907 --> 00:44:11.787
But that was the postscript on your departure my friend i
00:44:11.787 --> 00:44:14.727
do not i do not know that story yeah i did not know that and
00:44:14.727 --> 00:44:17.607
and just for the sake of saying it i did
00:44:17.607 --> 00:44:25.267
not intend or imagine that this podcast episode was gonna end where it's ending
00:44:25.267 --> 00:44:29.627
then all this all this back stuff i was not anticipating that i had not planned
00:44:29.627 --> 00:44:37.047
on it so no uh i'm really i'm really a little thrown i'm really a little kind of off my game right now.
00:44:37.407 --> 00:44:40.807
Well, that's because that's what makes us so ugly, irresponsible,
00:44:40.807 --> 00:44:42.107
and childish, my friend.
00:44:42.227 --> 00:44:46.127
You never know where it's going to lead and what soft nerves are going to be
00:44:46.127 --> 00:44:49.247
stepped on and emotions revealed. So thank you very much.
00:44:49.767 --> 00:44:54.347
And we hope everybody enjoyed it as much as Mark did. He's kind of looking off
00:44:54.347 --> 00:44:58.647
into space like you're going to be curled into a fetal position after this.
00:44:58.987 --> 00:45:01.387
I absolutely cannot listen to this episode.
00:45:04.767 --> 00:45:07.987
From the guy who says he wants people to hate him. So yeah.
00:45:08.687 --> 00:45:13.847
Yeah. You got a lot of work to do, pal. I got it. Yeah. So we,
00:45:13.847 --> 00:45:15.787
we should get you a, a priest.
00:45:18.247 --> 00:45:24.447
Yeah. I know it's rabbi. Quit you crying. Uh, well, I guess, I guess I'm Mark Levy.
00:45:24.727 --> 00:45:27.387
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm Jeremy Baca.
00:45:27.280 --> 00:46:00.809
Music.