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Today's conveyancer.co.uk.
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Hello, welcome along to the latest Today's Conveyancer podcast.
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Today we're talking about the digitization of property data, property due diligence.
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Yes, we'll touch on climate change, no doubt about it, but in general, the direction of travel for what the future of property searches might look like.
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And I have uh Jess Green with me.
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Uh Jess is the Chief Commercial Officer at Martello, Martello at property due diligence and search business.
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Great to have you on the podcast, Jess.
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Thank you so much for joining.
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In the first instance, I find it useful for guests to tell our listeners a little bit about themselves and their backgrounds.
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Because I mean, for you, for example, you you actually are a conveyancer.
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Right.
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You uh have you, I guess what, a gone turn coach?
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I don't know.
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Some might say, some might say.
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So tell us a bit about yourself and your background and I guess look how you've ended up in industry rather than in practice.
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Yeah, great.
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Well, so thank you so much for having me.
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As you said, I'm Jess from Martello.
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So my background, I qualified back in 2005 as a qualified solicitor, and during that period I did a bit of a general practice approach to law.
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So I was a Wills and probate divorce and conveyancing practitioner.
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So quite unusual for the time I qualified that it wasn't a specialist role.
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So I got to learn a lot.
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And all the horrible cases that most people see in conveyancing, I ended up having land on my desk.
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But it was great from a knowledge and an understanding.
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I think what I found though, through my years of being a conveyancer and a solicitor, was I was quite good at the business development side of things.
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I really liked looking after clients.
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I really understood customer service.
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Prior to qualifying, I'd worked in a lot of customer service roles, to kind of built that as a skill and a background, which I thought was really useful actually coming through.
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Because when you're a conveyancer, particularly in a small high street firm where I qualified, it was very much a case of it was, you know, hand to mouth.
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You have to do your own business development, work on your relationship management, do the day job, look after the clients, and it was basically cradle to grave.
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So that's kind of how I started in the industry.
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Always been super passionate.
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I think I was 11 years old when I decided I wanted to qualify.
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So one of those people that actually knew what they wanted to do, I think I was quite a rare breed, but followed that through and ended up qualifying in my early 20s.
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But then things started to take a little bit of a different approach.
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I ended up deciding to leave conveyancing when we were sort of mid-recession.
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I'd gone through hips, I'd gone through the 2008 property crash.
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And then as we were coming out of the back of that, I was approached by a friend of mine who was an IFA and decided to set up my own mortgage brokering business.
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I think at that time I'd kind of hit a crossroads of do I want to set up my own conveyancing practice?
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But at that point, the lenders, the PI insurers, everybody just slammed the door shut because we were in the middle of a recession.
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So it was a very tricky world to be practicing in, particularly as a sole practitioner at that point.
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Mortgage brokering, though, was a case of I could re-qualify and do a lot of the stuff I was already doing.
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I was already dealing with trusts, I was already dealing with mortgages.
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So it became what I used to say in the market from Dream Breaker, as conveyances like to be referred to, to Dream Maker as a mortgage breaker, making it all happen and all the fun stuff.
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So I did that for about five years, had a very successful business, but headed hunted into a company called Sort Refer, which was I don't know if anybody on the call will know them.
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They're very prevalent in the market, great team, great company.
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They deal with that whole piece of panel management where they take brokers and referring cases into conveyances, and I went in to manage the panel and basically become the conduit between what brokers want and need and what conveyancers can deliver.
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So a really different approach that's sort of a bit of a gamble on by bringing me in as an ex-conveyancer, but being that I was very commercially minded, it worked quite well.
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I then latterly got head-hunted into O'Neill Patient as their group CSO, so their chief sales officer, which was great.
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We I did that for three years.
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And then Henry, who is the CEO of Martello, knocked on my virtual office, told me all about what Martello are doing, and therein lies a story of how I joined.
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Excellent, excellent.
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And and I mean, you've been with the business now for about three years.
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It's gone from startup, and I'm I mean, I I remember chatting to Henry a few years ago when it was called uh it was a different name, wasn't it?
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My nest box.
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That's right.
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And you know, Henry's got a really interesting background as well as an environmental scientist.
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What's that journey been like for you over the past few years taking this what was a very small business into what is now a scale up, I guess in in quite a difficult kind of period as well for for conveyancing in general.
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I mean, we're gonna come on to things like climate change and some of the sort of other challenges that that conveyances face from a property due diligence point of view, but it's uh last three years feels as though it's it's probably been quite a journey for you.
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Absolutely.
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I think if anybody tells you startups are easy, they're lying.
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It's it's a tough market.
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And I think you know, we've come into a market where it is a bit of a David and Goliath story.
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We've got very established competitors in the market, so you know, and it's it's a very much a consolidated market, particularly in the environmental report space.
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So brave, stupid, whatever you want to call it, Martello went to market with, you know, it took three years of building just the environmental product on a residential basis, and that launched in November 2023.
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So I came in in the July 23, and as the chief commercial officer, it was a case of right, here's the product.
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Let's how do we get it to market?
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So I have to draw the go-to-market strategy, the pricing strategies, all the relationships with resellers, working with conveyances, marketing, and everything else in between.
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So it was as you would expect in a startup, all hands to the pump.
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What was brilliant though about Martello and joining it so early on, which I recognised from talking, the initial conversations with Henry, is Martello is all about best in class with the staff.
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Like we have got some really brilliant people within Martello who really know what they're doing.
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So we've got geospatial data analysts, we've got data engineers, we've got software engineers, we've got environmental consultants, we've got a really sort of great dream team, as I like to call it, where everybody is representing their pillars in the business.
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And sometimes you'll find that that can be a little bit tricky to navigate, but I think there's just a true, you know, lots of people saying about collaboration.
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Martello's collaboration is definitely at the heart of the business and it wants to make it makes us successful.
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And if you think in the three years I've been here, the amount of products we brought to market in that time is pretty unreal, to be fair.
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You know, in just in, you know, everywhere I've worked previously, you know, it's always another two weeks with tech, another two weeks, another two weeks, you know, because everybody just underestimates the build and the complexity.
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And I think Martello are really great at understanding the problem and you know, putting the building blocks together and producing some really fantastic products.
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So I'm very proud as a chief commercial officer to take these products to market, show conveyances, things that are being done in a slightly different way to what they've seen before.
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Nobody likes change, let's be fair.
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But actually, you know, we're in a very much a space of evolution now in tech, in IT, in AI, and in the industry in general.
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So I think we came to market at a really perfect time for us to be embraced, which has been great, as but and it's part of the success success story of Martello.
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I think uh you know the we always think about uh searches, and and there's a real big I guess challenge for search providers to differentiate themselves in the market.
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We know that, for example, there's quite a lot of the data out there that is uh very similar, in fact, a lot of the same data providers as well.
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So we're we're pulling data from the same places.
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And how do you then sort of work out how you present that to people?
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You mean describe the way that you operate as sort of slightly different from perhaps some of the the other players in the market.
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How do you then ensure that that's sort of brought to the conveyancer either as a visual or as a as a data packet that enables them to use it in the way that they need to use it?
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And how is that journey?
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How how do you inform that process?
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Yeah, so I think the key thing I'd say, you know, not being a data specialist, I think, which has been great for me to come into Martello and really understand data's data at the end of the day, and like you said, you know, we're all using very similar, if not the same, data.
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For me, it's all about the interpretation of data.
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And I think as conveyancers, and I can speak for myself in this respect, you know, we've never really been that comfortable with environmental data, particularly, you know, local authority data, we're okay with road adoptions and and all that kind of stuff, and planning permissions and building regulations, you know, and certificate certification.
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But when it comes to things like environmental issues, they are a little bit more woolly, you know, is susceptibility to flood and susceptibility to risk.
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It's not really our comfort zone, but we're kind of the the post box that all this information flows through.
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And then we become in this sort of difficult situation where clients want to know more about risks that are highlighted on a report, and we're kind of sat there going, Well, I'm not an environmental specialist, so I can't really tell you, David, whether to buy that property with a flood risk.
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So it becomes very difficult with the data interpretation and then obviously the data advice, you know, that comes off the fact of what is the problem for that property, because at the end of the day, consumers don't care about data.
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What they're caring about is is there something that's going to stop me buying this property?
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And if there is, what can I do about it?
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So the approach we took with Martello was very much a collaborative approach with conveyancers, in the respect of we wanted to make sure that we were supporting them from the back end.
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So the data interpretation, we took a very different view where we have an interactive platform that sits behind all of our reports.
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So you can click through a PDF and get through to the interactive mapping, and you can scroll in and out and see where the risk is in relation to that property.
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So I always say to when I do demos with conveyances, a bit like showing the homework.
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You can see how we're assessing the risk.
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So actually, sometimes as conveyancers, seeing a static PDF can be quite difficult.
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You know, when I was in practice, I can remember going to a property for a client that actually had a dispute over a shared driveway, and you couldn't really tell very much from just the plan.
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Getting in the car and going and seeing it suddenly visualized it and made it quite clear on what the problem was and how to resolve it.
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And I think, you know, that showing the homework is important.
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I think as well, what we did with our redesign that we did recently, we actually contracted and worked with the FX chief product officer from Monzo Bank.
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Obviously, Monzo are very well known in the banking world for doing something quite different and quite innovative and very consumer-led.
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So we wanted to make sure that we are starting to move that to there is a difference between the way that consumers consume data and the way that us as conveyancers do.
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We're looking at risk, they're looking at everything they need to know about the property.
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And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation.
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So, what we wanted to do with Martello is kind of bridge that gap a little bit.
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And what we do as part of that process, you know, we've got our reports to market, we're selling them at mass volume now, which is which has been amazing to see, you know, the embrace, we've been really embraced by the conveyancing industry, but we don't take that for granted.
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You know, we're building products for conveyancers, so we do a lot of engagement with them, round tables we host.
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So if anybody listening to this podcast wants to reach out to me, jeffs at martello.app, sign up and come to one of our round tables.
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We do them around the country, and it's all about what do you guys need from a report?
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Because I'm one conveyancer, I have my opinions, you know, things have changed with what we do as an organization because of that.
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But we're an evolving industry, and we need to start leaning into that, listening to the consumers of our report, which are conveyances initially, and what do they need to help manage that expectation of risk with their clients going forward?
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So visualization was a key thing that we took to market, and very much about action items as well.
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What do you do when something goes wrong?
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What can you can you mitigate against a risk?
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So we're very much about the high level.
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Is there a problem with the property?
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If there is, what can you do about it?
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And basically supporting conveyances through that process, which I think is really important when it's just not their comfort zone, as I said.
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And it's it's not their expertise either, is it?
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You know, I mean I I have this conversation time and time again with you know lots of different people.
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You can't expect conveyances to be environmental scientists or or data analysts.
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So you've got to have done that work for them in the first place.
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But I I guess sort of the the lead on to that is you know how much information is enough, how much is is too little?
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You know, I I understand what you're saying about having a uh you know a layer behind the PDF report, but you know, how welcome is that to a conveyancer who's actually you know got 50, 60, 70 files to run through, yeah, and is now getting bogged down in well, does this part of the property flood?
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Does that part flood?
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You know, what how how do we how do we know how much is too much?
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I think that's a really interesting question.
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It's something conveyancers battle with all the time because you know, we floated the idea of a one-page environmental report, and you should see the look of shock and fear in conveyancers' faces.
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And then you say, Well, you're consuming a sort of a 40-page environmental report right now.
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So actually, that probably is too much.
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I think it's that whole breakdown of, you know, I think there's an evolution.
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I think data, because we digitize our data, but we actually sort of interpret that through expertise as well.
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So it's not just raw data into reports, there's interpretation, there's overlaying of it and the advice side of things.
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But when is too much, too much, and when is not enough, not enough, we're not there, I don't think, with it, I think is the fair thing to say right now.
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I think there is still a lot of data.
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I think what we try to do with Martello, and it's a it's a continuing journey for us, is how can we make clients a little bit more self-serving without having to go back to conveyances and understand those risks and signposts?
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Well, who are the people I should talk to?
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Because if you've got a coastal erosion risk, there is no way a residential conveyancer sat on the high street can help you with that.
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You need to speak to a specialist.
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Same with flooding, you know, you need to know: do I need flood barriers?
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Do I need flood retaining walls?
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You know, there may be ways of mitigating risk, but lawyers certainly don't know about it, and neither do clients.
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So I think there's this kind of wall in behind these sort of reports that we need to break down to help people sort of self-serve a bit more and make proper informed choices as to whether a risk is too much to overcome, or actually, are we okay with that?
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And you know, when you look in the financial services world, you know, there's a lot of risk profiling that goes on.
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We sit in certain elements of where our risk appetite sits.
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And I think for clients, you know, the same thing will happen with risk hazards on properties.
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There are some clients, you know, if you live in the middle of Chewesbury, which floods all the time, your appetite to flood risk is going to be far higher than somebody that lives in another part of the country that doesn't have that sort of impact.
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So, you know, and and people will look at that as well, you know, well, mum and dad are around the corner, so they can pick the kids up from school.
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You know, there's other factors when we buy property, not just environmental risk.
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And I think, you know, it's it's an important element of it.
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But I think, you know, it's a case that's always been struggled with.
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And when you look at the number of pages alone with the reports, I think, in my opinion, they're far too long.
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But it's also getting the conveyances to a comfortable point where the data is enough that they trust it because you start stripping things back.
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You know, there are three practice notes.
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You have, you know, contaminated land, flood risk, and recently climate change.
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Those are the prescriptive practice notes that come from our regulator.
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But we have a lot more information, and that's not to say that information outside of those practice notes isn't important to a client.
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They're in the reports, they don't necessarily have to be there, but they are because they add value.
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So it's a case of where do you start to strip back?
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And it's something, again, with these engagement pieces that we're trying to do is how do we get you guys comfortable?
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I would love it if people didn't have to pick up environmental reports and go, please be a please be a green tip, please pass, please pass, because you know that's happening.
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The minute something comes up, it's like, oh God, I've got to go and do something about this.
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Where do I go now?
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So I think that's really important to address.
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And it's why Martello uses environmental experts, you know, we have external experts for particularly things like flood risk, contaminated land, etc.
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They are big issues that you need people that are working on these sites and seeing that to be able to support that process.
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But equally on the flip side, the driver of this information, the driver of the need for this information, it isn't conveyances particularly, is it, as you say?
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And and in fact, it's it's it's not even the regulators really, even even though there's the practice notes.
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Uh there's there's a really big element of lender uh requirements here that that uh are driving this desire for more information.
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I mean, we we were chatting before we started recording about, for example, lenders stress testing their portfolios.
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Yeah, I mean, and this is the thing where I think there's also a little bit of a an issue where we're all using the data, like we said before, you know, the the data is being used across the market, but it's used in slightly different ways, slightly different interpretations, you know, lenders are going to you know overlay their loan-to-value risk against the you know, against that environmental risk.
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You know, if you're lending at a 50% loan-to-value property, that's very different to a 95% loan-to-value, you know.
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So it's those sorts of things where the lenders are looking at it at a very high level and with just one lens.
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I think with conveyancers, it's very difficult because when you look at the UK finance handbook, it's very much a case of, you know, everybody's doing their own thing and you have to keep referring back to this working handbook to work out where that lender's appetite to risk is.
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Do they want to see these reports?
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How do you report that back to them?
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Which particular risks do they want to be signposted?
00:18:52.949 --> 00:19:07.829
So when you think about lawyers dealing with environmental risks, no, they don't choose to have to deal with, want to deal with this, but you know, when you're looking at a certain percentage of the market borrowing money from lenders, you have that secondary client that you have to protect as well.
00:19:08.069 --> 00:19:13.669
So, but again, you know, still it never changes the fact that we're not comfortable with the data.
00:19:13.829 --> 00:19:17.349
We're referring to a handbook to know what to do with from a lender's perspective.
00:19:17.429 --> 00:19:27.509
And I think climate change has been a really interesting one because one of the things that was important, I think, to take on board when the climate change practice and it was being discussed was well, what do the lenders think about this?
00:19:27.589 --> 00:19:44.469
Because it's all well and good us adopting practices as independent law firms, but when it actually comes to the multiple hundred hundred plus lenders in the market that all have these different criteria, how do you kind of serve all when you're dealing with a volume of cases at any one point?
00:19:44.629 --> 00:20:07.669
It's a really, I think that's something that I think conveyances will always, you know, have always struggled with since the the eight dawn of time, is that you're dealing with so many third parties that you're trying to keep happy, you're trying to make sure that everybody's informed, aware, and comfortable and moving on with the transaction, but there's nobody really kind of helping you with that particularly, they're doing things in different ways.
00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:16.309
You know, a lender will know about a flood risk before that report lands on your desk and have probably said it's okay from you know, it's why they've let that application go through.
00:20:16.469 --> 00:20:26.230
Some lenders are, you know, do that more than others, but we don't know that as conveyances, and we're kind of backstopping and doing everything in you know, the age, the age old argument.
00:20:26.389 --> 00:20:30.069
We had we carry the largest PI, so the buck stops with us.
00:20:30.149 --> 00:20:39.509
And I think that's something that in a world where we're becoming more data, digital, you know, there's lots of forums, groups, the government are now looking at it again.
00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:53.349
I think there's definitely an opportunity for everybody now to kind of get their ducks in a row and start singing the same hymn sheet because at the end of the day, it's a person buying a property, it's their family home, it's their, you know, their hearts and minds piece.
00:20:53.589 --> 00:21:00.629
And if you've got different stakeholders looking at it in different ways, and then it falls back to the conveyance, it's a really tricky position to put people in.
00:21:02.149 --> 00:21:10.230
And and you know, a huge amount of repetition as well, in terms of as you say, you know, lenders already looked at some of this data, conveyances going to look at it.
00:21:11.189 --> 00:21:25.509
I guess if if we sort of just start to look forward then in in terms of what this new world of digitized property data looks like, we've got upfront and material information uh changes coming.
00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:28.389
I mean that's still very much on the agenda.
00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:33.269
We've got the government consultation that we are yet to have the outcome of.
00:21:34.389 --> 00:21:39.669
And yet we are still talking about PDF reports with green ticks on them.
00:21:39.909 --> 00:21:40.069
Yeah.
00:21:40.389 --> 00:21:43.909
What does that direction of travel look like in in your view?
00:21:44.069 --> 00:21:56.069
And and you know, does Martello have a view on on how we get to a point where there's better sharing of that data so that we're not repeating ourselves constantly?
00:21:56.389 --> 00:21:56.789
Yeah.
00:21:57.029 --> 00:22:01.509
There's also a point, I think, um you know, all everything you just said there, David, is super valid.
00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:06.549
I think there's also a point of you know, where when is data being used?
00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:14.789
You know, the whole thing with, and I'll say the the word that a lot of people who are the same sort of age group as me in the conveyancing industry will know is the hips.
00:22:14.949 --> 00:22:17.189
The last thing we want to see is another hip come back out.
00:22:17.269 --> 00:22:21.189
You know, I think what happened with hips, they were it was a great concept.
00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:23.109
I think there was a just a bit of a flawed approach.
00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:30.869
It where we were having things like vendor instructed surveys, personal searches, which weren't allowable by a lot of lenders at that point.
00:22:30.949 --> 00:22:33.669
You know, EPCs were the only things that survived it.
00:22:33.909 --> 00:22:45.029
I think it's a it was a really interesting time to be in practice when hips came in because they became very expensive very quickly, they were launched in the middle of a recession, so you lost a bit of the perspective sellers on the market.
00:22:45.189 --> 00:22:51.269
But one of the things I think was a real benefit, and I think we could take the learning from was actually there was information up front.
00:22:51.349 --> 00:23:00.389
It was early part of a transaction, and people could see actually what was going on with that property before they were looking to actually get emotionally invested in it.
00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:05.189
So I'm very much a firm believer of the data being used in the right ways.
00:23:05.349 --> 00:23:20.149
You know, if I'm looking to buy a property, do I want to know, like if I've got a risk appetite that says I will never buy a property that's been reappropriated land that was contaminated, then knowing that it's a contaminated land property, I'm never going to look at that.
00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:28.549
So why am I getting all the way down the process of offering a property, waiting for the searches to come back, and then my solicitor informing me that there's an issue with contaminated land?
00:23:28.629 --> 00:23:30.469
And that's just a deal breaker for me as a client.
00:23:30.629 --> 00:23:31.509
Nobody knows that.
00:23:31.669 --> 00:23:34.629
I've kept that to myself because I don't know to volunteer it.
00:23:34.789 --> 00:23:42.309
So I think actually this upfront information piece for me is actually not about monetizing the search packs as such.
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:49.349
It's about how do we get the data into the market in a way that actually people can use it to make informed decisions.
00:23:49.429 --> 00:24:01.909
And then if that data is flowing through, where lenders, surveyors, you know, all the stakeholders, conveyancers at the back end, we're all looking at the same interpretations, susceptibilities, and people have made decisions.
00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:15.589
We shouldn't be going from, you know, not knowing at the beginning to the lender making a decision but not communicating that, and the conveyancer then picking it up, and then we're going back in this cycle because when you when you disclose things to lenders, everybody's busy.
00:24:15.750 --> 00:24:18.549
That can take a week, two weeks to come back to be reassessed.
00:24:18.629 --> 00:24:25.109
They might have to get back in front of their surveyor, and then your clients in this loop of just not knowing what's going on, not being able to make a decision.
00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:29.509
So I think there is a massive opportunity when it comes to data sharing.
00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.389
We are a property industry, after all, David.
00:24:32.789 --> 00:24:33.909
I think we forget that.
00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:38.069
We look at a conveyancing industry, the estate agency industry, the lending industry.
00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:42.549
We don't kind of think of ourselves as the ecosystem as a property industry.
00:24:42.869 --> 00:24:49.429
And sharing is a great way of sharing that data, of supporting that client through that process.
00:24:49.750 --> 00:25:07.669
So I think from my perspective, it will, you know, those sorts of upfront consumption of data will help stop fall-throughs, it will help speed up transactions, you know, and you will find estate agents, you know, will say, actually, we'll lose some, you know, we'll lose some deals on the way.
00:25:07.909 --> 00:25:10.149
Well, those deals were never going to go to completion anyway.
00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:17.669
You know, you look at the 20CI data, you know, we're still pretty much the same sort of averages, about 25% of properties are still falling through.
00:25:17.909 --> 00:25:21.269
So that's still, you know, we want to try and stop that happening.
00:25:21.349 --> 00:25:27.269
And, you know, things that are things that are cropping up too late in the process mean those fall throughs are happening.
00:25:27.429 --> 00:25:33.669
Those people can go and buy a property from the outset of one they want to buy and they're going to proceed with rather than proceeding with something and then stopping.
00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:38.469
And when you're in a chain, there's nothing worse than somebody changing their mind and breaking the chain.
00:25:38.629 --> 00:25:42.149
Like anybody that works in the property industry will relate to that.
00:25:42.389 --> 00:25:44.309
The data side itself is really interesting.
00:25:44.389 --> 00:25:45.750
So we digitize all our data.
00:25:45.829 --> 00:25:48.469
We have databases that digitize all our data.
00:25:48.789 --> 00:25:54.629
So for us, as data and software engineers, the team internally aren't big fans of PDFs.
00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:58.549
I think the world's moved on in the tech world a lot quicker than it has in conveyances.
00:25:58.629 --> 00:26:02.230
But we like those pieces of paper to hold on to, they're tangible.
00:26:02.389 --> 00:26:14.789
But I think the data, I think trusted data is such a big issue that if you can trust the data and you can populate it through case management systems through your reporting processes, I think that is very much the way to go.
00:26:14.869 --> 00:26:19.349
Like we should not be copying and pasting in the 21st century from PDFs.
00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:24.389
And if you're copying and pasting and putting it into another report, you're lifting and shifting the data.
00:26:24.469 --> 00:26:25.669
What value is being added?
00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:33.990
You know, you can you can do the advice thing without having to do another 12-page report or however many pages that that firm chooses to produce from a risk perspective.
00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:38.629
So raw data is not not the, you know, raw data is just the starting point.
00:26:38.709 --> 00:26:45.750
It then needs to be refined data, it needs to be trusted data, and then it needs to go through that that ecosystem into the property market.
00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:50.230
That's my personal opinion on it, but I definitely see that's the way that the world is moving.
00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:53.909
We are fast moving towards the end of the podcast.
00:26:53.990 --> 00:27:04.949
But before we finish, I know that Martello have got a fairly comprehensive suite of products for conveyances with a new one coming to market imminently as well.
00:27:05.189 --> 00:27:08.469
Tell us a little bit more about what that one aims to achieve.
00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:12.629
Yeah, so it's building from our CON29M, which we released to the market.
00:27:12.789 --> 00:27:16.230
We soft launched it back in July of last year, hard launched in the August.
00:27:16.389 --> 00:27:19.269
We are now building out our mines and minerals propositions.
00:27:19.429 --> 00:27:24.309
So it will be a CON29M for the coal section with mines and minerals.
00:27:24.389 --> 00:27:29.429
So your things like your Cheshire brine, all of your different kind of metalliferous mining.
00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:33.189
So a comprehensive mining report, which is quite different to the market.
00:27:33.269 --> 00:27:38.629
I think the competitors have combined that a lot with ground stability, which we cover off in our environmental report anyway.
00:27:38.709 --> 00:27:42.789
So we decided to go to market with very much a mines and minerals solution.
00:27:42.949 --> 00:27:47.829
It is, you know, like with everything we do with Martello, lots of checks up front.
00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:57.269
So we are looking at expert interpretation as part of that report before, you know, we don't try and push people to additional reports where they're not required.
00:27:57.349 --> 00:28:05.269
You know, we're very much firm believers that give conveyancers and consumers the answer at the earliest opportunity rather than here's what we think.
00:28:05.429 --> 00:28:10.149
Now you need to get a follow-on report to get the additional information that you might require.
00:28:10.309 --> 00:28:12.709
We're very much about building that interpretation in.
00:28:12.869 --> 00:28:19.349
So we already do that in our environmental suite, in our CON29M suite, and we're building that into our mines and minerals.
00:28:19.429 --> 00:28:22.709
So we're really excited to bring something quite different to market.
00:28:22.869 --> 00:28:29.429
We had a lot of feedback that a mines and minerals solution sort of standalone was something that the market wanted.
00:28:29.509 --> 00:28:30.869
So we've gone ahead and built that.
00:28:30.949 --> 00:28:33.990
We've got the Cornwall Coal mining team behind that.
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:37.189
We've got Tom Backhouse with ex terra firma helping build that out.
00:28:37.269 --> 00:28:49.669
So again, like I said before, Martel is all about using specialists and top-notch people to help build our reports that really love the data, love the hazard risks, you know, they really understand it, they know what's going on with it.
00:28:49.750 --> 00:28:54.629
And, you know, from a perspective of a conveyancer, we have to trust the data as it's presented to us.
00:28:54.789 --> 00:29:00.469
You've got to trust your environmental providers that they're going seeking the best people in class to help produce those reports as well.
00:29:00.629 --> 00:29:04.069
So, you know, that's something we're very excited about bringing to market.
00:29:04.149 --> 00:29:10.069
We're hoping for the launch date, you know, subject to tech as these things always are, and you know, last-minute glitches and changes.
00:29:10.149 --> 00:29:12.389
But we're looking to launch that towards the end of May.
00:29:12.549 --> 00:29:14.949
So that will complete our residential suites.
00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:20.309
We have our Enviro, Enviro plus Climate, Environment Enviro plus Climate Plus Planning, which is all modulized.
00:29:20.469 --> 00:29:23.589
We then have the Con 29M and the mines and minerals suite.
00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:29.669
So we have everything that a residential conveyancer should then need to look at environmental hazard risks.
00:29:30.789 --> 00:29:33.669
Before looking then at commercial at some point.
00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:39.990
Yeah, so we do have a commercial like product out, which is basically aimed at sort of shops on the high street, sort of non-change of use development.
00:29:40.069 --> 00:29:44.230
So we started that because we knew that there was a lot of multidisciplined firms, obviously with my background.
00:29:44.389 --> 00:29:51.669
There was an opportunity where we have firms that really love Martello from a residential perspective, and their commercial team wanted a bit of a bite of that too.
00:29:51.829 --> 00:29:58.469
So the where they're multidisciplined, they're doing a lot of these sort of, you know, they're not doing the big development sites necessarily, the solar wind farms, those sort of things.
00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:00.309
So that's not appropriate for our reports.
00:30:00.469 --> 00:30:10.789
But if you're transacting, you know, the old shop on a high street and you know, like I said, an office block, those things, you know, if they're non-change of use, they're staying in the same footprint, then it's absolutely fine to use our commercial lights.
00:30:10.949 --> 00:30:13.109
We we put that brought that to the market.
00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:23.349
That came out in November of last year, and the plan is for once we've got the uh the final mines and minerals report out, we'll start to move into the commercial space a bit further.
00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:28.789
So plenty to getting your teeth into over the course of the next few years.
00:30:28.949 --> 00:30:31.990
But that's as much time as we have for the podcast today, Jess.
00:30:32.069 --> 00:30:33.269
I really appreciate you joining.
00:30:33.349 --> 00:30:35.990
Thank you so much for uh sharing your insight.
00:30:36.709 --> 00:30:38.069
Thank you for inviting me.
00:30:39.669 --> 00:30:43.589
The Today's Conveyancer podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider.
00:30:43.909 --> 00:30:47.269
It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co dot uk.
00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:48.789
My thanks to Jess.
00:30:48.949 --> 00:30:51.429
Thank you as ever for listening and we'll see you again soon.
00:00:33.109 --> 00:00:36.870
Don't forget to subscribe and sign up to our free newsletter.
00:00:37.429 --> 00:00:40.150
Today's conveyancer.co.uk.
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You can also follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter.
00:00:46.390 --> 00:00:49.510
Hello, welcome along to the latest Today's Conveyancer podcast.
00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:55.189
Today we're talking about the digitization of property data, property due diligence.
00:00:55.270 --> 00:01:06.310
Yes, we'll touch on climate change, no doubt about it, but in general, the direction of travel for what the future of property searches might look like.
00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:08.870
And I have uh Jess Green with me.
00:01:09.030 --> 00:01:16.789
Uh Jess is the Chief Commercial Officer at Martello, Martello at property due diligence and search business.
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Great to have you on the podcast, Jess.
00:01:19.990 --> 00:01:21.189
Thank you so much for joining.
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In the first instance, I find it useful for guests to tell our listeners a little bit about themselves and their backgrounds.
00:01:29.830 --> 00:01:34.229
Because I mean, for you, for example, you you actually are a conveyancer.
00:01:34.789 --> 00:01:34.870
Right.
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You uh have you, I guess what, a gone turn coach?
00:01:38.710 --> 00:01:39.270
I don't know.
00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:42.469
Some might say, some might say.
00:01:43.990 --> 00:01:50.550
So tell us a bit about yourself and your background and I guess look how you've ended up in industry rather than in practice.
00:01:51.110 --> 00:01:51.750
Yeah, great.
00:01:51.909 --> 00:01:54.069
Well, so thank you so much for having me.
00:01:54.229 --> 00:01:56.229
As you said, I'm Jess from Martello.
00:01:56.390 --> 00:02:05.990
So my background, I qualified back in 2005 as a qualified solicitor, and during that period I did a bit of a general practice approach to law.
00:02:06.069 --> 00:02:10.150
So I was a Wills and probate divorce and conveyancing practitioner.
00:02:10.390 --> 00:02:14.390
So quite unusual for the time I qualified that it wasn't a specialist role.
00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:15.509
So I got to learn a lot.
00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:20.710
And all the horrible cases that most people see in conveyancing, I ended up having land on my desk.
00:02:20.870 --> 00:02:23.750
But it was great from a knowledge and an understanding.
00:02:23.909 --> 00:02:31.189
I think what I found though, through my years of being a conveyancer and a solicitor, was I was quite good at the business development side of things.
00:02:31.270 --> 00:02:32.870
I really liked looking after clients.
00:02:33.030 --> 00:02:34.789
I really understood customer service.
00:02:35.030 --> 00:02:42.789
Prior to qualifying, I'd worked in a lot of customer service roles, to kind of built that as a skill and a background, which I thought was really useful actually coming through.
00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:49.349
Because when you're a conveyancer, particularly in a small high street firm where I qualified, it was very much a case of it was, you know, hand to mouth.
00:02:49.430 --> 00:02:57.269
You have to do your own business development, work on your relationship management, do the day job, look after the clients, and it was basically cradle to grave.
00:02:57.349 --> 00:02:59.829
So that's kind of how I started in the industry.
00:03:00.150 --> 00:03:01.269
Always been super passionate.
00:03:01.349 --> 00:03:04.150
I think I was 11 years old when I decided I wanted to qualify.
00:03:04.310 --> 00:03:12.949
So one of those people that actually knew what they wanted to do, I think I was quite a rare breed, but followed that through and ended up qualifying in my early 20s.
00:03:13.109 --> 00:03:16.629
But then things started to take a little bit of a different approach.
00:03:16.789 --> 00:03:21.750
I ended up deciding to leave conveyancing when we were sort of mid-recession.
00:03:21.829 --> 00:03:25.750
I'd gone through hips, I'd gone through the 2008 property crash.
00:03:25.909 --> 00:03:34.229
And then as we were coming out of the back of that, I was approached by a friend of mine who was an IFA and decided to set up my own mortgage brokering business.
00:03:34.469 --> 00:03:39.349
I think at that time I'd kind of hit a crossroads of do I want to set up my own conveyancing practice?
00:03:39.509 --> 00:03:45.349
But at that point, the lenders, the PI insurers, everybody just slammed the door shut because we were in the middle of a recession.
00:03:45.430 --> 00:03:50.069
So it was a very tricky world to be practicing in, particularly as a sole practitioner at that point.
00:03:50.229 --> 00:03:54.870
Mortgage brokering, though, was a case of I could re-qualify and do a lot of the stuff I was already doing.
00:03:54.949 --> 00:03:57.590
I was already dealing with trusts, I was already dealing with mortgages.
00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:07.109
So it became what I used to say in the market from Dream Breaker, as conveyances like to be referred to, to Dream Maker as a mortgage breaker, making it all happen and all the fun stuff.
00:04:07.269 --> 00:04:17.189
So I did that for about five years, had a very successful business, but headed hunted into a company called Sort Refer, which was I don't know if anybody on the call will know them.
00:04:17.269 --> 00:04:20.470
They're very prevalent in the market, great team, great company.
00:04:20.629 --> 00:04:34.790
They deal with that whole piece of panel management where they take brokers and referring cases into conveyances, and I went in to manage the panel and basically become the conduit between what brokers want and need and what conveyancers can deliver.
00:04:34.870 --> 00:04:43.510
So a really different approach that's sort of a bit of a gamble on by bringing me in as an ex-conveyancer, but being that I was very commercially minded, it worked quite well.
00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:49.189
I then latterly got head-hunted into O'Neill Patient as their group CSO, so their chief sales officer, which was great.
00:04:49.270 --> 00:04:50.710
We I did that for three years.
00:04:50.870 --> 00:05:00.470
And then Henry, who is the CEO of Martello, knocked on my virtual office, told me all about what Martello are doing, and therein lies a story of how I joined.
00:05:00.950 --> 00:05:01.990
Excellent, excellent.
00:05:02.070 --> 00:05:05.350
And and I mean, you've been with the business now for about three years.
00:05:05.990 --> 00:05:13.189
It's gone from startup, and I'm I mean, I I remember chatting to Henry a few years ago when it was called uh it was a different name, wasn't it?
00:05:13.350 --> 00:05:14.230
My nest box.
00:05:14.870 --> 00:05:15.670
That's right.
00:05:16.070 --> 00:05:20.710
And you know, Henry's got a really interesting background as well as an environmental scientist.
00:05:21.590 --> 00:05:37.830
What's that journey been like for you over the past few years taking this what was a very small business into what is now a scale up, I guess in in quite a difficult kind of period as well for for conveyancing in general.
00:05:37.990 --> 00:05:49.110
I mean, we're gonna come on to things like climate change and some of the sort of other challenges that that conveyances face from a property due diligence point of view, but it's uh last three years feels as though it's it's probably been quite a journey for you.
00:05:49.990 --> 00:05:50.629
Absolutely.
00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:55.510
I think if anybody tells you startups are easy, they're lying.
00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:56.950
It's it's a tough market.
00:05:57.030 --> 00:06:00.629
And I think you know, we've come into a market where it is a bit of a David and Goliath story.
00:06:00.710 --> 00:06:08.870
We've got very established competitors in the market, so you know, and it's it's a very much a consolidated market, particularly in the environmental report space.
00:06:09.030 --> 00:06:21.670
So brave, stupid, whatever you want to call it, Martello went to market with, you know, it took three years of building just the environmental product on a residential basis, and that launched in November 2023.
00:06:21.750 --> 00:06:28.629
So I came in in the July 23, and as the chief commercial officer, it was a case of right, here's the product.
00:06:28.710 --> 00:06:29.830
Let's how do we get it to market?
00:06:29.990 --> 00:06:39.189
So I have to draw the go-to-market strategy, the pricing strategies, all the relationships with resellers, working with conveyances, marketing, and everything else in between.
00:06:39.350 --> 00:06:43.670
So it was as you would expect in a startup, all hands to the pump.
00:06:43.830 --> 00:06:53.990
What was brilliant though about Martello and joining it so early on, which I recognised from talking, the initial conversations with Henry, is Martello is all about best in class with the staff.
00:06:54.070 --> 00:06:58.870
Like we have got some really brilliant people within Martello who really know what they're doing.
00:06:59.110 --> 00:07:13.510
So we've got geospatial data analysts, we've got data engineers, we've got software engineers, we've got environmental consultants, we've got a really sort of great dream team, as I like to call it, where everybody is representing their pillars in the business.
00:07:13.750 --> 00:07:21.030
And sometimes you'll find that that can be a little bit tricky to navigate, but I think there's just a true, you know, lots of people saying about collaboration.
00:07:21.270 --> 00:07:25.590
Martello's collaboration is definitely at the heart of the business and it wants to make it makes us successful.
00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:33.270
And if you think in the three years I've been here, the amount of products we brought to market in that time is pretty unreal, to be fair.
00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:44.230
You know, in just in, you know, everywhere I've worked previously, you know, it's always another two weeks with tech, another two weeks, another two weeks, you know, because everybody just underestimates the build and the complexity.
00:07:44.390 --> 00:07:51.750
And I think Martello are really great at understanding the problem and you know, putting the building blocks together and producing some really fantastic products.
00:07:51.910 --> 00:08:00.390
So I'm very proud as a chief commercial officer to take these products to market, show conveyances, things that are being done in a slightly different way to what they've seen before.
00:08:00.550 --> 00:08:02.550
Nobody likes change, let's be fair.
00:08:02.710 --> 00:08:10.470
But actually, you know, we're in a very much a space of evolution now in tech, in IT, in AI, and in the industry in general.
00:08:10.550 --> 00:08:18.710
So I think we came to market at a really perfect time for us to be embraced, which has been great, as but and it's part of the success success story of Martello.
00:08:20.070 --> 00:08:31.270
I think uh you know the we always think about uh searches, and and there's a real big I guess challenge for search providers to differentiate themselves in the market.
00:08:31.510 --> 00:08:39.590
We know that, for example, there's quite a lot of the data out there that is uh very similar, in fact, a lot of the same data providers as well.
00:08:39.669 --> 00:08:42.309
So we're we're pulling data from the same places.
00:08:43.029 --> 00:08:47.429
And how do you then sort of work out how you present that to people?
00:08:47.509 --> 00:08:53.350
You mean describe the way that you operate as sort of slightly different from perhaps some of the the other players in the market.
00:08:53.590 --> 00:09:03.190
How do you then ensure that that's sort of brought to the conveyancer either as a visual or as a as a data packet that enables them to use it in the way that they need to use it?
00:09:03.269 --> 00:09:04.470
And how is that journey?
00:09:04.710 --> 00:09:06.870
How how do you inform that process?
00:09:07.190 --> 00:09:20.470
Yeah, so I think the key thing I'd say, you know, not being a data specialist, I think, which has been great for me to come into Martello and really understand data's data at the end of the day, and like you said, you know, we're all using very similar, if not the same, data.
00:09:20.710 --> 00:09:22.950
For me, it's all about the interpretation of data.
00:09:23.110 --> 00:09:39.269
And I think as conveyancers, and I can speak for myself in this respect, you know, we've never really been that comfortable with environmental data, particularly, you know, local authority data, we're okay with road adoptions and and all that kind of stuff, and planning permissions and building regulations, you know, and certificate certification.
00:09:39.430 --> 00:09:46.230
But when it comes to things like environmental issues, they are a little bit more woolly, you know, is susceptibility to flood and susceptibility to risk.
00:09:46.310 --> 00:09:52.790
It's not really our comfort zone, but we're kind of the the post box that all this information flows through.
00:09:52.870 --> 00:10:05.029
And then we become in this sort of difficult situation where clients want to know more about risks that are highlighted on a report, and we're kind of sat there going, Well, I'm not an environmental specialist, so I can't really tell you, David, whether to buy that property with a flood risk.
00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:16.950
So it becomes very difficult with the data interpretation and then obviously the data advice, you know, that comes off the fact of what is the problem for that property, because at the end of the day, consumers don't care about data.
00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:20.710
What they're caring about is is there something that's going to stop me buying this property?
00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:23.430
And if there is, what can I do about it?
00:10:23.670 --> 00:10:34.389
So the approach we took with Martello was very much a collaborative approach with conveyancers, in the respect of we wanted to make sure that we were supporting them from the back end.
00:10:34.550 --> 00:10:40.710
So the data interpretation, we took a very different view where we have an interactive platform that sits behind all of our reports.
00:10:40.870 --> 00:10:48.070
So you can click through a PDF and get through to the interactive mapping, and you can scroll in and out and see where the risk is in relation to that property.
00:10:48.149 --> 00:10:51.830
So I always say to when I do demos with conveyances, a bit like showing the homework.
00:10:51.990 --> 00:10:53.670
You can see how we're assessing the risk.
00:10:53.830 --> 00:10:58.149
So actually, sometimes as conveyancers, seeing a static PDF can be quite difficult.
00:10:58.310 --> 00:11:08.230
You know, when I was in practice, I can remember going to a property for a client that actually had a dispute over a shared driveway, and you couldn't really tell very much from just the plan.
00:11:08.550 --> 00:11:14.790
Getting in the car and going and seeing it suddenly visualized it and made it quite clear on what the problem was and how to resolve it.
00:11:15.029 --> 00:11:17.509
And I think, you know, that showing the homework is important.
00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:26.870
I think as well, what we did with our redesign that we did recently, we actually contracted and worked with the FX chief product officer from Monzo Bank.
00:11:27.029 --> 00:11:33.509
Obviously, Monzo are very well known in the banking world for doing something quite different and quite innovative and very consumer-led.
00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:42.230
So we wanted to make sure that we are starting to move that to there is a difference between the way that consumers consume data and the way that us as conveyancers do.
00:11:42.389 --> 00:11:46.629
We're looking at risk, they're looking at everything they need to know about the property.
00:11:46.790 --> 00:11:49.190
And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation.
00:11:49.350 --> 00:11:52.389
So, what we wanted to do with Martello is kind of bridge that gap a little bit.
00:11:52.470 --> 00:12:05.029
And what we do as part of that process, you know, we've got our reports to market, we're selling them at mass volume now, which is which has been amazing to see, you know, the embrace, we've been really embraced by the conveyancing industry, but we don't take that for granted.
00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:11.110
You know, we're building products for conveyancers, so we do a lot of engagement with them, round tables we host.
00:12:11.269 --> 00:12:17.909
So if anybody listening to this podcast wants to reach out to me, jeffs at martello.app, sign up and come to one of our round tables.
00:12:17.990 --> 00:12:22.230
We do them around the country, and it's all about what do you guys need from a report?
00:12:22.310 --> 00:12:28.070
Because I'm one conveyancer, I have my opinions, you know, things have changed with what we do as an organization because of that.
00:12:28.230 --> 00:12:41.670
But we're an evolving industry, and we need to start leaning into that, listening to the consumers of our report, which are conveyances initially, and what do they need to help manage that expectation of risk with their clients going forward?
00:12:41.750 --> 00:12:46.550
So visualization was a key thing that we took to market, and very much about action items as well.
00:12:46.629 --> 00:12:47.990
What do you do when something goes wrong?
00:12:48.149 --> 00:12:50.629
What can you can you mitigate against a risk?
00:12:50.790 --> 00:12:53.269
So we're very much about the high level.
00:12:53.430 --> 00:12:55.029
Is there a problem with the property?
00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:56.950
If there is, what can you do about it?
00:12:57.029 --> 00:13:03.110
And basically supporting conveyances through that process, which I think is really important when it's just not their comfort zone, as I said.
00:13:03.430 --> 00:13:07.430
And it's it's not their expertise either, is it?
00:13:07.509 --> 00:13:12.389
You know, I mean I I have this conversation time and time again with you know lots of different people.
00:13:12.950 --> 00:13:18.629
You can't expect conveyances to be environmental scientists or or data analysts.
00:13:18.710 --> 00:13:23.269
So you've got to have done that work for them in the first place.
00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:31.909
But I I guess sort of the the lead on to that is you know how much information is enough, how much is is too little?
00:13:32.470 --> 00:13:51.750
You know, I I understand what you're saying about having a uh you know a layer behind the PDF report, but you know, how welcome is that to a conveyancer who's actually you know got 50, 60, 70 files to run through, yeah, and is now getting bogged down in well, does this part of the property flood?
00:13:51.830 --> 00:13:52.550
Does that part flood?
00:13:52.629 --> 00:13:56.389
You know, what how how do we how do we know how much is too much?
00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:58.710
I think that's a really interesting question.
00:13:58.950 --> 00:14:07.750
It's something conveyancers battle with all the time because you know, we floated the idea of a one-page environmental report, and you should see the look of shock and fear in conveyancers' faces.
00:14:07.909 --> 00:14:12.070
And then you say, Well, you're consuming a sort of a 40-page environmental report right now.
00:14:12.230 --> 00:14:14.629
So actually, that probably is too much.
00:14:14.790 --> 00:14:18.710
I think it's that whole breakdown of, you know, I think there's an evolution.
00:14:18.790 --> 00:14:25.350
I think data, because we digitize our data, but we actually sort of interpret that through expertise as well.
00:14:25.430 --> 00:14:31.830
So it's not just raw data into reports, there's interpretation, there's overlaying of it and the advice side of things.
00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:39.590
But when is too much, too much, and when is not enough, not enough, we're not there, I don't think, with it, I think is the fair thing to say right now.
00:14:39.670 --> 00:14:42.230
I think there is still a lot of data.
00:14:42.389 --> 00:14:54.389
I think what we try to do with Martello, and it's a it's a continuing journey for us, is how can we make clients a little bit more self-serving without having to go back to conveyances and understand those risks and signposts?
00:14:54.550 --> 00:14:56.149
Well, who are the people I should talk to?
00:14:56.230 --> 00:15:02.550
Because if you've got a coastal erosion risk, there is no way a residential conveyancer sat on the high street can help you with that.
00:15:02.710 --> 00:15:04.389
You need to speak to a specialist.
00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:08.310
Same with flooding, you know, you need to know: do I need flood barriers?
00:15:08.470 --> 00:15:10.230
Do I need flood retaining walls?
00:15:10.310 --> 00:15:16.310
You know, there may be ways of mitigating risk, but lawyers certainly don't know about it, and neither do clients.
00:15:16.389 --> 00:15:32.550
So I think there's this kind of wall in behind these sort of reports that we need to break down to help people sort of self-serve a bit more and make proper informed choices as to whether a risk is too much to overcome, or actually, are we okay with that?
00:15:32.629 --> 00:15:36.550
And you know, when you look in the financial services world, you know, there's a lot of risk profiling that goes on.
00:15:36.629 --> 00:15:39.590
We sit in certain elements of where our risk appetite sits.
00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:43.830
And I think for clients, you know, the same thing will happen with risk hazards on properties.
00:15:43.990 --> 00:15:55.110
There are some clients, you know, if you live in the middle of Chewesbury, which floods all the time, your appetite to flood risk is going to be far higher than somebody that lives in another part of the country that doesn't have that sort of impact.
00:15:55.350 --> 00:16:01.190
So, you know, and and people will look at that as well, you know, well, mum and dad are around the corner, so they can pick the kids up from school.
00:16:01.269 --> 00:16:05.269
You know, there's other factors when we buy property, not just environmental risk.
00:16:05.430 --> 00:16:08.310
And I think, you know, it's it's an important element of it.
00:16:08.470 --> 00:16:11.590
But I think, you know, it's a case that's always been struggled with.
00:16:11.670 --> 00:16:17.830
And when you look at the number of pages alone with the reports, I think, in my opinion, they're far too long.
00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:26.550
But it's also getting the conveyances to a comfortable point where the data is enough that they trust it because you start stripping things back.
00:16:26.629 --> 00:16:28.470
You know, there are three practice notes.
00:16:28.550 --> 00:16:33.269
You have, you know, contaminated land, flood risk, and recently climate change.
00:16:33.430 --> 00:16:36.629
Those are the prescriptive practice notes that come from our regulator.
00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:42.550
But we have a lot more information, and that's not to say that information outside of those practice notes isn't important to a client.
00:16:42.710 --> 00:16:47.590
They're in the reports, they don't necessarily have to be there, but they are because they add value.
00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:50.230
So it's a case of where do you start to strip back?
00:16:50.310 --> 00:16:56.230
And it's something, again, with these engagement pieces that we're trying to do is how do we get you guys comfortable?
00:16:56.470 --> 00:17:04.149
I would love it if people didn't have to pick up environmental reports and go, please be a please be a green tip, please pass, please pass, because you know that's happening.
00:17:04.309 --> 00:17:07.829
The minute something comes up, it's like, oh God, I've got to go and do something about this.
00:17:07.990 --> 00:17:09.190
Where do I go now?
00:17:09.349 --> 00:17:11.589
So I think that's really important to address.
00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:19.750
And it's why Martello uses environmental experts, you know, we have external experts for particularly things like flood risk, contaminated land, etc.
00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:25.990
They are big issues that you need people that are working on these sites and seeing that to be able to support that process.
00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:36.869
But equally on the flip side, the driver of this information, the driver of the need for this information, it isn't conveyances particularly, is it, as you say?
00:17:36.949 --> 00:17:41.589
And and in fact, it's it's it's not even the regulators really, even even though there's the practice notes.
00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:52.309
Uh there's there's a really big element of lender uh requirements here that that uh are driving this desire for more information.
00:17:52.469 --> 00:17:58.949
I mean, we we were chatting before we started recording about, for example, lenders stress testing their portfolios.
00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:21.990
Yeah, I mean, and this is the thing where I think there's also a little bit of a an issue where we're all using the data, like we said before, you know, the the data is being used across the market, but it's used in slightly different ways, slightly different interpretations, you know, lenders are going to you know overlay their loan-to-value risk against the you know, against that environmental risk.
00:18:22.069 --> 00:18:28.149
You know, if you're lending at a 50% loan-to-value property, that's very different to a 95% loan-to-value, you know.
00:18:28.309 --> 00:18:33.909
So it's those sorts of things where the lenders are looking at it at a very high level and with just one lens.
00:18:34.149 --> 00:18:47.509
I think with conveyancers, it's very difficult because when you look at the UK finance handbook, it's very much a case of, you know, everybody's doing their own thing and you have to keep referring back to this working handbook to work out where that lender's appetite to risk is.
00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:48.789
Do they want to see these reports?
00:18:48.869 --> 00:18:50.069
How do you report that back to them?
00:18:50.230 --> 00:18:52.469
Which particular risks do they want to be signposted?
00:18:52.949 --> 00:19:07.829
So when you think about lawyers dealing with environmental risks, no, they don't choose to have to deal with, want to deal with this, but you know, when you're looking at a certain percentage of the market borrowing money from lenders, you have that secondary client that you have to protect as well.
00:19:08.069 --> 00:19:13.669
So, but again, you know, still it never changes the fact that we're not comfortable with the data.
00:19:13.829 --> 00:19:17.349
We're referring to a handbook to know what to do with from a lender's perspective.
00:19:17.429 --> 00:19:27.509
And I think climate change has been a really interesting one because one of the things that was important, I think, to take on board when the climate change practice and it was being discussed was well, what do the lenders think about this?
00:19:27.589 --> 00:19:44.469
Because it's all well and good us adopting practices as independent law firms, but when it actually comes to the multiple hundred hundred plus lenders in the market that all have these different criteria, how do you kind of serve all when you're dealing with a volume of cases at any one point?
00:19:44.629 --> 00:20:07.669
It's a really, I think that's something that I think conveyances will always, you know, have always struggled with since the the eight dawn of time, is that you're dealing with so many third parties that you're trying to keep happy, you're trying to make sure that everybody's informed, aware, and comfortable and moving on with the transaction, but there's nobody really kind of helping you with that particularly, they're doing things in different ways.
00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:16.309
You know, a lender will know about a flood risk before that report lands on your desk and have probably said it's okay from you know, it's why they've let that application go through.
00:20:16.469 --> 00:20:26.230
Some lenders are, you know, do that more than others, but we don't know that as conveyances, and we're kind of backstopping and doing everything in you know, the age, the age old argument.
00:20:26.389 --> 00:20:30.069
We had we carry the largest PI, so the buck stops with us.
00:20:30.149 --> 00:20:39.509
And I think that's something that in a world where we're becoming more data, digital, you know, there's lots of forums, groups, the government are now looking at it again.
00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:53.349
I think there's definitely an opportunity for everybody now to kind of get their ducks in a row and start singing the same hymn sheet because at the end of the day, it's a person buying a property, it's their family home, it's their, you know, their hearts and minds piece.
00:20:53.589 --> 00:21:00.629
And if you've got different stakeholders looking at it in different ways, and then it falls back to the conveyance, it's a really tricky position to put people in.
00:21:02.149 --> 00:21:10.230
And and you know, a huge amount of repetition as well, in terms of as you say, you know, lenders already looked at some of this data, conveyances going to look at it.
00:21:11.189 --> 00:21:25.509
I guess if if we sort of just start to look forward then in in terms of what this new world of digitized property data looks like, we've got upfront and material information uh changes coming.
00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:28.389
I mean that's still very much on the agenda.
00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:33.269
We've got the government consultation that we are yet to have the outcome of.
00:21:34.389 --> 00:21:39.669
And yet we are still talking about PDF reports with green ticks on them.
00:21:39.909 --> 00:21:40.069
Yeah.
00:21:40.389 --> 00:21:43.909
What does that direction of travel look like in in your view?
00:21:44.069 --> 00:21:56.069
And and you know, does Martello have a view on on how we get to a point where there's better sharing of that data so that we're not repeating ourselves constantly?
00:21:56.389 --> 00:21:56.789
Yeah.
00:21:57.029 --> 00:22:01.509
There's also a point, I think, um you know, all everything you just said there, David, is super valid.
00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:06.549
I think there's also a point of you know, where when is data being used?
00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:14.789
You know, the whole thing with, and I'll say the the word that a lot of people who are the same sort of age group as me in the conveyancing industry will know is the hips.
00:22:14.949 --> 00:22:17.189
The last thing we want to see is another hip come back out.
00:22:17.269 --> 00:22:21.189
You know, I think what happened with hips, they were it was a great concept.
00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:23.109
I think there was a just a bit of a flawed approach.
00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:30.869
It where we were having things like vendor instructed surveys, personal searches, which weren't allowable by a lot of lenders at that point.
00:22:30.949 --> 00:22:33.669
You know, EPCs were the only things that survived it.
00:22:33.909 --> 00:22:45.029
I think it's a it was a really interesting time to be in practice when hips came in because they became very expensive very quickly, they were launched in the middle of a recession, so you lost a bit of the perspective sellers on the market.
00:22:45.189 --> 00:22:51.269
But one of the things I think was a real benefit, and I think we could take the learning from was actually there was information up front.
00:22:51.349 --> 00:23:00.389
It was early part of a transaction, and people could see actually what was going on with that property before they were looking to actually get emotionally invested in it.
00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:05.189
So I'm very much a firm believer of the data being used in the right ways.
00:23:05.349 --> 00:23:20.149
You know, if I'm looking to buy a property, do I want to know, like if I've got a risk appetite that says I will never buy a property that's been reappropriated land that was contaminated, then knowing that it's a contaminated land property, I'm never going to look at that.
00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:28.549
So why am I getting all the way down the process of offering a property, waiting for the searches to come back, and then my solicitor informing me that there's an issue with contaminated land?
00:23:28.629 --> 00:23:30.469
And that's just a deal breaker for me as a client.
00:23:30.629 --> 00:23:31.509
Nobody knows that.
00:23:31.669 --> 00:23:34.629
I've kept that to myself because I don't know to volunteer it.
00:23:34.789 --> 00:23:42.309
So I think actually this upfront information piece for me is actually not about monetizing the search packs as such.
00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:49.349
It's about how do we get the data into the market in a way that actually people can use it to make informed decisions.
00:23:49.429 --> 00:24:01.909
And then if that data is flowing through, where lenders, surveyors, you know, all the stakeholders, conveyancers at the back end, we're all looking at the same interpretations, susceptibilities, and people have made decisions.
00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:15.589
We shouldn't be going from, you know, not knowing at the beginning to the lender making a decision but not communicating that, and the conveyancer then picking it up, and then we're going back in this cycle because when you when you disclose things to lenders, everybody's busy.
00:24:15.750 --> 00:24:18.549
That can take a week, two weeks to come back to be reassessed.
00:24:18.629 --> 00:24:25.109
They might have to get back in front of their surveyor, and then your clients in this loop of just not knowing what's going on, not being able to make a decision.
00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:29.509
So I think there is a massive opportunity when it comes to data sharing.
00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.389
We are a property industry, after all, David.
00:24:32.789 --> 00:24:33.909
I think we forget that.
00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:38.069
We look at a conveyancing industry, the estate agency industry, the lending industry.
00:24:38.230 --> 00:24:42.549
We don't kind of think of ourselves as the ecosystem as a property industry.
00:24:42.869 --> 00:24:49.429
And sharing is a great way of sharing that data, of supporting that client through that process.
00:24:49.750 --> 00:25:07.669
So I think from my perspective, it will, you know, those sorts of upfront consumption of data will help stop fall-throughs, it will help speed up transactions, you know, and you will find estate agents, you know, will say, actually, we'll lose some, you know, we'll lose some deals on the way.
00:25:07.909 --> 00:25:10.149
Well, those deals were never going to go to completion anyway.
00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:17.669
You know, you look at the 20CI data, you know, we're still pretty much the same sort of averages, about 25% of properties are still falling through.
00:25:17.909 --> 00:25:21.269
So that's still, you know, we want to try and stop that happening.
00:25:21.349 --> 00:25:27.269
And, you know, things that are things that are cropping up too late in the process mean those fall throughs are happening.
00:25:27.429 --> 00:25:33.669
Those people can go and buy a property from the outset of one they want to buy and they're going to proceed with rather than proceeding with something and then stopping.
00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:38.469
And when you're in a chain, there's nothing worse than somebody changing their mind and breaking the chain.
00:25:38.629 --> 00:25:42.149
Like anybody that works in the property industry will relate to that.
00:25:42.389 --> 00:25:44.309
The data side itself is really interesting.
00:25:44.389 --> 00:25:45.750
So we digitize all our data.
00:25:45.829 --> 00:25:48.469
We have databases that digitize all our data.
00:25:48.789 --> 00:25:54.629
So for us, as data and software engineers, the team internally aren't big fans of PDFs.
00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:58.549
I think the world's moved on in the tech world a lot quicker than it has in conveyances.
00:25:58.629 --> 00:26:02.230
But we like those pieces of paper to hold on to, they're tangible.
00:26:02.389 --> 00:26:14.789
But I think the data, I think trusted data is such a big issue that if you can trust the data and you can populate it through case management systems through your reporting processes, I think that is very much the way to go.
00:26:14.869 --> 00:26:19.349
Like we should not be copying and pasting in the 21st century from PDFs.
00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:24.389
And if you're copying and pasting and putting it into another report, you're lifting and shifting the data.
00:26:24.469 --> 00:26:25.669
What value is being added?
00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:33.990
You know, you can you can do the advice thing without having to do another 12-page report or however many pages that that firm chooses to produce from a risk perspective.
00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:38.629
So raw data is not not the, you know, raw data is just the starting point.
00:26:38.709 --> 00:26:45.750
It then needs to be refined data, it needs to be trusted data, and then it needs to go through that that ecosystem into the property market.
00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:50.230
That's my personal opinion on it, but I definitely see that's the way that the world is moving.
00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:53.909
We are fast moving towards the end of the podcast.
00:26:53.990 --> 00:27:04.949
But before we finish, I know that Martello have got a fairly comprehensive suite of products for conveyances with a new one coming to market imminently as well.
00:27:05.189 --> 00:27:08.469
Tell us a little bit more about what that one aims to achieve.
00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:12.629
Yeah, so it's building from our CON29M, which we released to the market.
00:27:12.789 --> 00:27:16.230
We soft launched it back in July of last year, hard launched in the August.
00:27:16.389 --> 00:27:19.269
We are now building out our mines and minerals propositions.
00:27:19.429 --> 00:27:24.309
So it will be a CON29M for the coal section with mines and minerals.
00:27:24.389 --> 00:27:29.429
So your things like your Cheshire brine, all of your different kind of metalliferous mining.
00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:33.189
So a comprehensive mining report, which is quite different to the market.
00:27:33.269 --> 00:27:38.629
I think the competitors have combined that a lot with ground stability, which we cover off in our environmental report anyway.
00:27:38.709 --> 00:27:42.789
So we decided to go to market with very much a mines and minerals solution.
00:27:42.949 --> 00:27:47.829
It is, you know, like with everything we do with Martello, lots of checks up front.
00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:57.269
So we are looking at expert interpretation as part of that report before, you know, we don't try and push people to additional reports where they're not required.
00:27:57.349 --> 00:28:05.269
You know, we're very much firm believers that give conveyancers and consumers the answer at the earliest opportunity rather than here's what we think.
00:28:05.429 --> 00:28:10.149
Now you need to get a follow-on report to get the additional information that you might require.
00:28:10.309 --> 00:28:12.709
We're very much about building that interpretation in.
00:28:12.869 --> 00:28:19.349
So we already do that in our environmental suite, in our CON29M suite, and we're building that into our mines and minerals.
00:28:19.429 --> 00:28:22.709
So we're really excited to bring something quite different to market.
00:28:22.869 --> 00:28:29.429
We had a lot of feedback that a mines and minerals solution sort of standalone was something that the market wanted.
00:28:29.509 --> 00:28:30.869
So we've gone ahead and built that.
00:28:30.949 --> 00:28:33.990
We've got the Cornwall Coal mining team behind that.
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:37.189
We've got Tom Backhouse with ex terra firma helping build that out.
00:28:37.269 --> 00:28:49.669
So again, like I said before, Martel is all about using specialists and top-notch people to help build our reports that really love the data, love the hazard risks, you know, they really understand it, they know what's going on with it.
00:28:49.750 --> 00:28:54.629
And, you know, from a perspective of a conveyancer, we have to trust the data as it's presented to us.
00:28:54.789 --> 00:29:00.469
You've got to trust your environmental providers that they're going seeking the best people in class to help produce those reports as well.
00:29:00.629 --> 00:29:04.069
So, you know, that's something we're very excited about bringing to market.
00:29:04.149 --> 00:29:10.069
We're hoping for the launch date, you know, subject to tech as these things always are, and you know, last-minute glitches and changes.
00:29:10.149 --> 00:29:12.389
But we're looking to launch that towards the end of May.
00:29:12.549 --> 00:29:14.949
So that will complete our residential suites.
00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:20.309
We have our Enviro, Enviro plus Climate, Environment Enviro plus Climate Plus Planning, which is all modulized.
00:29:20.469 --> 00:29:23.589
We then have the Con 29M and the mines and minerals suite.
00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:29.669
So we have everything that a residential conveyancer should then need to look at environmental hazard risks.
00:29:30.789 --> 00:29:33.669
Before looking then at commercial at some point.
00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:39.990
Yeah, so we do have a commercial like product out, which is basically aimed at sort of shops on the high street, sort of non-change of use development.
00:29:40.069 --> 00:29:44.230
So we started that because we knew that there was a lot of multidisciplined firms, obviously with my background.
00:29:44.389 --> 00:29:51.669
There was an opportunity where we have firms that really love Martello from a residential perspective, and their commercial team wanted a bit of a bite of that too.
00:29:51.829 --> 00:29:58.469
So the where they're multidisciplined, they're doing a lot of these sort of, you know, they're not doing the big development sites necessarily, the solar wind farms, those sort of things.
00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:00.309
So that's not appropriate for our reports.
00:30:00.469 --> 00:30:10.789
But if you're transacting, you know, the old shop on a high street and you know, like I said, an office block, those things, you know, if they're non-change of use, they're staying in the same footprint, then it's absolutely fine to use our commercial lights.
00:30:10.949 --> 00:30:13.109
We we put that brought that to the market.
00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:23.349
That came out in November of last year, and the plan is for once we've got the uh the final mines and minerals report out, we'll start to move into the commercial space a bit further.
00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:28.789
So plenty to getting your teeth into over the course of the next few years.
00:30:28.949 --> 00:30:31.990
But that's as much time as we have for the podcast today, Jess.
00:30:32.069 --> 00:30:33.269
I really appreciate you joining.
00:30:33.349 --> 00:30:35.990
Thank you so much for uh sharing your insight.
00:30:36.709 --> 00:30:38.069
Thank you for inviting me.
00:30:39.669 --> 00:30:43.589
The Today's Conveyancer podcast is available on your preferred podcast provider.
00:30:43.909 --> 00:30:47.269
It's also available on today'sconveyancer.co dot uk.
00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:48.789
My thanks to Jess.
00:30:48.949 --> 00:30:51.429
Thank you as ever for listening and we'll see you again soon.
