WEBVTT
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My most popular video that I've ever put out on YouTube was me to do my collections.
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I've been doing this since I was two my dear.
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I don't feel like this evolution in my first experience.
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And I feel great about my knowledge until I didn't talk in leads and I got humbled.
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Because I listened to my presentation was barely scratching the extensive history of 3x, medical devices, human augmentation even that built on before my personal experience.
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And all the ways that humans have been augmented in their bodies since the dawn of time.
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Well, maybe not literally.
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Well today I have on the professor who told me all about the history of my presence.
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And I'll eat my words of that first video I made that you guys really liked.
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That was not the prosthetic evolution.
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This is.
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Hello and welcome to the podcast Ray Gillibrand.
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Oh, it's so nice to be here.
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Thanks for having me to chat.
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I'm dying to know, like, how far back does your knowledge actually go when it comes to augmenting the body throughout history?
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I mostly focus on the medieval period.
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So roughly 1400 to 1600 is where a lot of like the main research that I've done has been.
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But we've got evidence for prosecs going way, way back, like way back to ancient Egypt, even um to the Etruscan civilization.
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Yeah, because isn't I do know I feel like the origin of Prisetics, as far as we know, was like Egyptian times, right?
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With was it like a wooden toe?
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Yeah, yeah, there was a wooden toe that was found.
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So so interesting, especially to see like how far they've come here today, to think way back when it was like a wooden toe, and that was like supposedly the beginning, but like let's be honest, probably not.
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I feel like that's mad that that's just the earliest it is on on record, you know.
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What intrigued you into that world?
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Because obviously for me it's pretty like self-explanatory, right?
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But I was just interested in like why you decided to take this path and learn all about this.
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Yeah, so I'm I've just always been interested in in history, interested in thinking about the voices of people who are left out of historical records.
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Um, we can talk about this later, but there's like there's loads of um, you know, kings and queens who we might consider to have uh disabilities or physical impairments by today's standards.
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But I just love the ordinary people, like just day-to-day people and like resurfacing their voices and making sure their stories are heard.
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Yeah, it's super interesting because I was talking to somebody else lastie doesn't on the podcast.
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She's called Gracie McGonagall, and she was an actress in Bridget Inn, missing a hand.
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And obviously, Bridget Inn is like set way back in like Victorian times or whatever, and she got some people being like they they had a hard time envisioning her in that world.
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But I'm like, you know, we didn't what did we do then?
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We didn't just cease to exist back then, you know.
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It's like it just hasn't been documented, but obviously we were there.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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It's wild.
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I need to go back and listen to that episode because I love Bridgerton.
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Um I know exactly who you mean.
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Yeah, I I teach a module at Leeds, um, which is called Dread and Despair.
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Question mark, living with disability in the Middle Ages.
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Because there was a historian back in the 1990s who said that if you had limb loss or disability in in the Middle Ages, you could have had nothing but a life of dread and despair.
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And it's not true, it's just not true.
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Like all of the historical sources say otherwise, like people's lives were just as weird and diverse and good and bad as they are today.
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You know what?
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Let's just get into it.
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You said like there's some like kings and queens and like all sorts throughout history who who might have had disabilities.
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Like, who might we know?
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It it depends what you're counting as like a disability.
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I think about disabilities, anything society enforces that makes life difficult for you.
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In that way, I've looked at people like Richard III, who had scoliosis.
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Um, so he was um a medieval king in the late 1400s and he had curvature of the spine.
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Um, and I've thought a lot about him and whether or not we can even consider him disabled, because he can do everything that he's expected to as a man, as a king.
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People are beginning to ask now whether um Henry VIII had sort of neurological conditions um that might have come into play after he um he fell from his horse and had a really nasty accident when he was jousting.
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Um, and so people are beginning to sort of ask, you know, was he did he have some kind of like acquired neurodivergence?
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Um so like these big figures that we like, we all really know, like everybody growing up in a British school system has heard of Henry VIII.
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People are beginning to say, oh, maybe there are these stories underneath that what we've not kind of investigated.
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Yeah, and speaking of real stories as well, because we know that prosthetics like ranged right back at the start, they were like wooden, they were like hooks and things like that.
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The things we picture when we like think about medieval prosetics, that's what we picture.
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At a certain point, they became mechanical, right?
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And I read your article about knights and processes, speaking of real stories.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So there's this medieval knight called Gitz von Berlicking, and he's one of my favorites, I love him.
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He's really interesting for a few reasons.
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So he lives at the end of the 1400s, and he's a really unique case study because he leaves behind an autobiography.
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So we've got writing that he's you know done about himself, so we've actually got his perspective, but we also have two of his prophetic arms that survive still to this day.
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Um, so what would that be if they were made in the late 1400s, over 600 years old?
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So that's crazy.
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And his autobiography is fascinating because he presents himself as sort of hyper masculine, um, and he's real sort of trouble.
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Like he gets off on these little tangents about like, oh, how he tried to stab someone who was annoying him with a bread knife at a banquet and all kinds of nonsense.
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I think I think if I'm remembering right, the reason he did that was because this guy had pretty hair and he was angry at him for having pretty hair, you know.
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Happens to the best of us.
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Be in trouble.
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Um, but then we get to this point where he's in his he's in his early twenties, he's um a mercenary knight, so he's a knight, he would have been fully armored, on a horse.
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He says he's riding into battle and he raises his sword hand above his head, um, so his right hand to strike down on an enemy when a cannon fires through his arm.
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Um the cannon was fired by his own men, so bit of bit of friendly fire there.
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Yeah, I saw that I saw that little tip in the article.
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Oops.
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Um, he says he looks down, he sees his arm um dangling from a strip of skin.
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Um, and he says that he pretends it doesn't matter.
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He turns his horse around and he goes back to his camp.
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A little bit down the line, he says that you know, he was thinking about what he could do once the rest of his arm had been amputated, and he remembers another knight.
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Um, I think it's uh an uncle of one of his friends who also has a prosthetic arm.
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And so he decides to get a prosthetic built for him that is of a similar kind of design.
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This arm then that he gets built is fully mechanized, I guess, obviously not to the same standards as today, um, but it uses a lot of what back then was cutting-edge technology um in terms of things like the technology you'd find in clockmaking and the technology you'd find in like locksmithing and that kind of very delicate mechanisms.
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Um and a lot of that technology came out of sort of Islamic science where they were working on making robots, like automata.
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Um, so it was it was early robotics.
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Anyway, he gets this hand commissioned, and all of the fingers can be moved, they can be sort of set in position, uh, they can also be then released back into an open position by pressing a button on the the back of the palm.
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So it gives him quite a range of of movements.
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So that one was that like body powered in a sense that you would literally just like push the fingers shut.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So a ratchet mechanism, I suppose.
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So you had like various levels of movement.
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So you could have them sort of fully open, partially open, partially closed and closed.
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Um, but yeah, it did require body movement, as you say, to do that and to sort of set it in place.
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Yeah, it's super interesting because obviously there's a variety of prosthetics available here today, like ones that require like a lot more motors and like EMG sensors, but I feel like it's really interesting because you don't see those hooks gone.
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Like people still can lean towards body-powered prosthetics, and I feel like we really underestimate them in like what they can do, like they're powered by the human body, it feels very like intuitive.
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And while we like got so carried away with like technology in the sense of like tiny motors and muscle sensors and neural link, like all of those crazy things as well.
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I feel like there's something to be said for like the beginning of prosthetics and the fact that it was body powered, like it all came from the body, yeah.
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And I suppose while the technology can go wrong, the ratchets could come loose or I don't know, get clunky or stuck.
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It's really hard to break when it's body powered.
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Yeah.
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Well, clearly, if he's still got his hand around from like 600 years ago, like I look at the one I had when I was three, and it was like tied together by elastic bands, and that's like decaying, it's moldy.
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Like, what?
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That's crazy.
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It's really cool to see back then, like how they got on with Prisset Eggs with such limited technology.
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Like, I actually saw a video, you might have seen it, like it resurfaced a couple of years ago.
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It claims to be a man from 1921 who was an engineer, and he's like basically doing a demonstration.
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Do you know what I'm talking about?
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I know the video, yeah, yeah.
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Yes, I had to go searching for it before I got on the call to you because I was like, I want to slot it into the video 34 seconds in.
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He's oh, he's taking it off.
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Like, I just find that mad how he's doing that because it's obviously an amputation from like the shoulder.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And then he puts it back on.
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It's very similar to this one.
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He's it's a sling, it's over the two shoulders.
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I love the beginning bit at the beginning where he shows that it's got this lever mechanism that ratchets the fingers closed and then he ratchets it backwards to open them up.
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I'm doing it.
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Yes, exactly.
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Um, which is very, very similar to the medieval designs.
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Like it's it's not that different, it's just that you've got this easier ratchet on the outside rather than physically doing it with your hand.
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Yeah.
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Um, they still have those today because I've never seen that.
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Yeah, I suppose maybe we're we're beyond it a little bit.
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Yeah, I'm watching it now, and then he's yeah, he takes it on and off.
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Are you you're on the bit where he's like unscrewing the hands and that?
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Yeah, so hang on, let me show you on this one.
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It's it's not so dissimilar.
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On this one, yeah.
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So the hand comes off first of all, separately, so you can put on the others, but also this section of the lower arm comes off if it's not been played with by loads of kids at public engagement events.
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That means then that you can attach from further up the arm, which is what he seems to be doing with this this gripper kind of thing that he has.
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Because I guess that gives him a little bit more flexibility in where the pressure's coming from with the use of the tools.
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Yeah, but it's it's just like that one in the sense that you take the hand off, you replace it with a tool.
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Yeah, he like replaces it with a hammer as well, and it's like a literal hammer, it's great, yeah.
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And then and then it can be a hand.
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I don't know.
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See that bit at the end where he's like he tries to smoke.
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Oh, his hand seems like it moves.
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Oh, I'm gonna watch that again.
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Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
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How is he doing that?
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How is he doing that?
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Because he he brings his hand together to hold the cigarette and then opens it to what it's interesting, isn't it?
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Do you know can we not figure that out?
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Do we not know what that is?
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Because that's given EMGs, but I don't think they had them then.
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I wonder if there's some kind of pressure because he he brings his hand up and he sort of drops it, doesn't he?
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So I'm wondering if there's like a pressure, and then as he puts his hand down, it opens up again, and then he does the same like the same pulling back to hold the glass.
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Yeah, it's so impressive, regardless.
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Like super cool.
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It's not my time period, but um not mine either.
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No, that was just a fun little experiment.
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I was like, because that video like caught me off guard and caught everybody off guard.
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We were like, wait, we could do that in 1921, like because I feel like there's also a lot of misinformation on the internet, and like looking at that video, that looks fab.
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And then you remember it was 1921.
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So I wanted to run it past you as like the historian and the person who's done all the research.
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Like, can you confirm or deny that's true, right?
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That was 1921 mechanics.
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I think so.
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Yeah, I think I think it's a real video.
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I think this is Irish, though, isn't it?
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Black Rock Special Hospital was in Dublin.
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Yeah, it was.
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It was in Dublin.
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So cool.
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They were a very um fancy hospital established after the first world war that were specifically about prosthetics and and patients who'd lost limbs.
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I've um I've brought these to show you.
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So I thought you'd like these.
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These are from the 1960s, um, but they're all different hands from the 1960s.
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I love these because I I always give them to students to confuse them and ask them, you know, what do they think they're all for?
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So this one is for holding a spade because it's got that wrist rotation.
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I see that, I see that.
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We've got one here for fishing, holding a fishing rod, and this one is holding a snooker cue.
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This one, which has got like a whole toilet plunger.
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It totally does.
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It's kind of the same idea.
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It was for putting over a car gear stick to to drive an old-fashioned car gear stick.
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Um, and then that one is like squidgy for holding um pools, like nippins of wax.
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Yeah.
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Um, and they're all together because they were all marketed for men, because it's so gendered, and they're all things that men would like to do.
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You know, you go, you play snooker, you go fishing, you do the gardening, all that kind of stuff.
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What if what if we want to go fishing and gardening, bro?
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The women made by the same company, they get potato peelers, so you can get a prosthetic handle.
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Yeah, no doubt.
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That is, I mean, that sounds incredibly useful.
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My family literally asked me what I wanted for Christmas like earlier this year, and I was like, a potato peeler, Loki, but also like what?
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That's crazy, the gender norms of that.
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I know, I know.
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Uh, women also get a broom attachment for sweeping the floor.
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Um Bro, why is this making me mad?
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Like all useful, but like, why are they just for women?
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And it's like, this is what I love about studying prosthetics is that on the face of it, you're looking at technology, right?
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And it's it's really cool.
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But when you drill down into it and you think about the lived experience, you get into gender norms and society and what's expected of people, and and that's the stuff that I find fascinating as well.
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And I think that the ones I just showed you are such a good example of that because they give you an insight into like what it was to be a man and a woman in in the 1960s.
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When it comes to obviously medieval times as well, like we're clutching at straws trying to make these like devices, which actually work way back when, which is super, super cool.
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But there was also the matter of like surgeries and things like that.
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Like, that's something I always think about.
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I was wondering if you knew about like the history of like amputation and when that became like an option for people who were maybe injured in the war or had a disease because I know it was not, I mean, it's not easy now, amputation is always difficult, but I know it was literally like it's like a hacksaw back in the day, right?
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Yeah, not fun.
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No, it's interesting because as you go back into sort of the earlier middle ages, there is evidence of some amputations, um, but they are always at the wrists or at the ankles, and at sort of thinner body parts.
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Um you very, very rarely see amputations like above the knee, for example, where you've got to go through like the femoral arteries um or above the elbows where you've got to get through um, you know, more kind of flesh.
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It's not until we get to the sort of late 1400s-ish, where we get um a surgeon called Ambrose Parray who begins to pioneer a new technique of helping people with amputations.
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And because of what he's doing, more people then begin to survive them.
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And that's why in this time we then see an influx of prosthetics.
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Yeah, the ability to survive, not just the amputation itself, so not just like you know, bleeding out on the battlefield, but then surviving the uh the kind of trauma of it and then surviving infection, it's just an absolute nightmare.
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But what Haré invented was he would take a little bit longer.
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This is gonna get gory now, so content warning so trigger warning rather than cutting straight through the limb and it you know, bleeding out, and then what people would often do was caurterize it with a hot iron, he would leave like a flap of skin.
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Um, and then what he would do is he would sew off the major veins and arteries, then put the flap of skin over the open wound and sew it back round so it would um heal up together much more neatly.
00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:00.880
And provided that that didn't get infected, which it totally could, it was much more effective than the earlier method of you know amputating corterites.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:01.920
Yeah.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:03.279
God, that's crazy.
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.559
They they were just figuring all of this out in real time.
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.079
Yeah, you wouldn't want to be the person they were testing it on, would you?
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.160
I literally think about that all the time.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.119
I'm like, if I would have been born in a different era, I don't get you actually wouldn't even be alive.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:22.880
So we genuinely have like medical, you know, advancements and technology to thank for that.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.039
Like now that even when I was like getting my hands amputated, it was a it was a conversation.
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.079
It was like, will she be interested in prosthetics in the future?
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.640
Like, obviously, I was too young to make that decision at the time.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.039
I was like one when I had my hands amputated.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:46.640
But the fact that the conversation of prosthetics was like a present conversation being had, like before my amputations, I feel like that just goes to show like how much better it is now.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:19:09.119
Because right off the bat, you know, you've never looked into prosthetics in your life, but then there's a whole world to unfold, and there's so many historians and scientists and like doctors who have made that possible today for me to even first of all be alive, but then second of all, get to wear something like this, which is just so cool and so awesome.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:32.240
I wanted to ask you, what do you think was the most like groundbreaking discovery in Prisetics to help sort of propel the industry forward?
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.440
Whether that was like a material, a certain era where something just clicked for them.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:43.279
Because I feel like we had our own version of that, like in recent years in the modern day, with like 3D printing.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:51.359
3D printing came around and suddenly prosetics was more lightweight, more affordable, like easier to create, all of these different things.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.160
And I was wondering like we must have had a version of that back in back in the day.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:57.920
Oh, it's such a good question.
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:18.720
Um, and I think it's really interesting because sort of the material side of it is interesting, because when we're looking at the medieval period, and I suppose it's not so dissimilar today, the prosthetics that you had access to really, really depended on what money you had, what influence you had, um and also like what your job was as well.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.680
Like some people just wouldn't need something fancy, so you're not gonna pay for it because you don't need it.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:30.960
At least in the time period I'm looking at, one of the biggest kind of leap forwards is collaboration.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:36.799
Um and we still see massive points of progression with collaboration today, right?
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:43.519
As well, like as you said, uh doctors, historians, uh various different scholars, engineers, whoever.
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.480
Um, and it's the same when we go back to like the late 1400s.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:55.839
So there's this point where when we're looking at the development of prosthetics, you've got uh medical professionals like Ambrose Paret, who's like literally like designing them.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.599
He has a good understanding of how human bodies work and the sort of mechanics.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:13.759
And then he will use this kind of um legacy of scholarship and understanding of technology and mechanisms that comes from the sort of um Islamic tradition.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.599
So he's drawing on this like really long history of sort of scholarship.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:30.240
But then what he was doing is he was taking all of that to local blacksmiths uh and saying, Hey, look, how do I make a case for this like mechanism to go in like an actual hand?
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.160
And the blacksmith would be like, right, I know the materials, I know that iron, I'm gonna do that.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:42.720
And then he would go and take that to a locksmith and go, right, I need someone now who can actually make the mechanism inside and do that.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:54.079
So we get this collaboration between blacksmiths, between locksmiths, clockmakers, doctors, all based on this like really long intellectual tradition of science and scholarship.
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.720
And together they're making prosthetics.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, and I think it's that, I think it's the communication between people with.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.359
Different areas of expertise.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:07.599
To be able to like share that knowledge and create something as revolutionary for the time as like a prosthetic.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:13.200
To send this guy back into war, riding a horse, and be able to wield a sword with that.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.839
I think that is just so mad.
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:20.319
Yeah, and he he like he uses it to like get a reputation as well.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.880
He becomes known as Guts the Iron Hand.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:32.079
Um he goes from being like quite shy about it or awkward about it and not really wanting to talk about it, to being like, oh no, I'm this guy.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.119
Um, and and really making it like a facet of his identity.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:42.640
Well, to be honest, I feel like if his whole thing was like macho yai, an iron hand, you know, kind of kind of adds to that swagger.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:46.000
If you ask me, I might be biased, but yeah, yeah.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.960
The thing you raise about the sort of macho side of things is super important to Guts.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:23:01.200
It's an interesting conversation to think about how they were perceived, you know, because even today I feel like prosthetics are perceived differently.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:09.599
Like, I feel like as somebody who wears prosthetics, I am perceived differently whether I'm wearing them or whether I'm not wearing them.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:12.079
You know, like I feel like that's still very present today.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.039
And I think about like the olden times, like you feel like they're very discriminatory.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:28.400
So it's actually quite nice to think, you know, once he came into his power and he got this prosthetic for himself, he went back out there and he like got down to business like he did once before.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:33.519
I feel like there's something really inspiring in that for like today's, you know, amputees.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.119
I want to talk about prosthetics in like film and pop culture.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:43.359
As a historian, I feel like you would look at that differently, like because you know all the ins and outs, you know.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:48.079
What has been your favorite depiction of a prosthetic if you have one at all, or maybe you hate it?
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.640
I don't know.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.400
Oh, so I guess there's like favorite and what is good as well.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:24:04.240
So um I I use Jamie Lannister's golden hand from Game of Thrones uh when I'm talking to my students a lot, because I go, hey, look at this.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:12.400
You'd imagine this is what they've had in the Middle Ages, but no, and then we we look at what actually existed, which is way more sophisticated than what he's represented with.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.960
I'm like, oh, if if Jamie Lannister had been a medieval knight, he could have had something so much better than the golden hand.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:28.559
But in terms of what is good in the TV show Vikings, there's a character in Vikings called Ivar the Boneless who is a real historical figure as well.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:34.319
We know that he's got some impairment of his legs, um, that means that he finds it hard to walk.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:48.720
Um, and um in the show they depict him with these sort of like little hand trestles, so they almost look like like a little bar that you hold on to with four legs coming off the bottom that he uses to drag himself along on the ground.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:25:01.359
Um and these were something that we see in medieval artwork like all the time, they're associated with disability and poverty, so they're like the total opposite of these amazing prosthetics that the knights had.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:11.839
They were like very simple to make and could be used by people without many resources or the money to afford better things, and it was so nice to see that end of the scale being represented in a TV show.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.960
Yeah, definitely.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:17.440
Because like that, that is, I feel like what people think of first when it comes to medieval.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:21.200
Like we think of like hooks and like peg legs, like naturally you do.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.160
I think about like how to train your dragon, like he's walking on a still.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.279
Do you know what I mean?
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:35.519
What else I found I find interesting is like when I was growing up looking into prosthetics, all that was offered to me growing up were prosthetics that looked super realistic.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:40.400
But I feel like it's even more interesting to know that it that wasn't the beginning of it.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.559
Like at the start, they were metal, they were wood, they were functional, they were like, this is how we make a prosthetic work.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:57.440
The reason I thought they were all realistic is because of people losing limbs in like more recent wars, and then the soldiers coming home and they don't want to remember the fact they've lost their arm.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:02.000
So they had like cosmetic prosetics before they had prosthetics that would move.
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.599
And that was genuinely like the history that I was aware of.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:10.400
Kind of like we've done a full circle, because that's what we're going for now, right?
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:16.880
Like we have got metal, and it's all about how much you can carry and like the the load they can take.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.079
We we like ran over these with a truck during testing to make sure they were durable, you know.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:34.880
I find that like full circle really interesting that they were like that, and then they got quite realistic, and now we're back to making rugged prosthetics that really work.
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.799
Yeah, and I think um I think this comes back to gender as well.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:47.440
Like in the medieval period, the people who are most likely to have prosthetics were men um and elite men.
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:55.680
So like you were most likely to lose a limb on the battlefield, that's the situation in which it was most likely.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:01.039
Um and the men on the battlefield who could then afford prosthetics were the knights.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.880
So you've got the patriarchy, right?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.160
If it's men who are using them, then the there's that empowerment.
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:23.279
Whereas as you move through history and you begin to see more prosthetics being developed for women who've lost limbs either like congenitally or through illness or disease, they become more body-like um and more about consulting.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:24.720
So right.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:34.960
Um, and so again, it's like you know, women are meant to be demure and hide these things, and and you begin to see that element creeping in, right?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.720
So there's another medieval hand um called the Groninger hand.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:43.839
Um, and it's the only hand that I found in my research that I think belonged to a woman.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.279
Um, I don't know for sure.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:49.119
To me, it was a woman.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:51.839
It's it's super cool.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.640
It's it's kind of different to the other hands.
00:27:54.799 --> 00:28:00.960
Um, it's more delicate in its features, like the the wrist kind of comes in a little bit in a more delicate way.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:07.200
The fingers are sculpted to be more delicate, but the the fingers are made to look like fingers.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.640
Um, they have like little knuckles engraved in them.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.400
Um it's painted in a um in a flesh tone.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.400
Uh it doesn't look very flesh tone anymore because it's so old that the paint's kind of faded.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.000
But most interestingly, the elbow joint is exposed.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.599
That would give like quite a nice range of movement, but wouldn't be any good if you're on the battlefield.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:43.359
Like um, and then you've got the arm itself is partially wood, and again, wood is lighter weight, so it might be more suitable for a woman who in that period would be less strong than a man because women weren't like working out or training to be knights in the same way.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:50.079
Um, but also you don't want a wooden arm on the battlefield because you're gonna get rained on, it's it's gonna go moldy like the one from your childhood.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.079
Like you don't want that, you want iron.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:02.319
So I think that combination of like the exposed elbow joint, the finer sort of features, and the inclusion of wood in the design makes it all way more likely that this was made for a woman.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:08.000
And it's one of the ones that we see that is clearly painted to match you know, skin tone and that kind of thing.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:09.839
So already we're starting to get this.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:24.559
Wow, I love how you just have to look at very like nobody would notice this but the historians, and they would put two and two together and they'd be like, because you don't really know, but yeah, by the way you're describing it, that does sound like a woman's hand.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.799
You like figure that out like a mystery, you know?
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:32.319
And even if it if even if it is rooted in like patriarchy, it's like damn.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:44.000
The way you can like figure things out like that by looking at history, and we get to learn about like how Priscetics of today came to be, I find that so interesting.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.920
Have you ever seen Horrible Histories?
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.000
Yeah, I love Horrible Histories.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.880
I could totally see you just on Horrible Histories.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:07.839
I love that show.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:21.599
I want to do like a rundown right here, right now, of like each era of Prisset X, who they were for, what they were made of, what they could do, you know, from the beginning of time to like now.
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:24.880
Could you, you know, decipher the different eras?
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.640
Oh my goodness.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:34.480
Well, I think I think one of the things that people want to do with history is like put things in categories, and I I try to not do that.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:44.640
Like, um, one of the things that that I sort of say to my students is nobody was waking up on the 1st of January 1500 and being like, hmm, I feel early modern today.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:31:02.480
Like the lines, yeah, it's just the lines that we draw just don't quite work, but we see more sort of cosmetic prostheses to begin with, so things like that, Egyptian toe, probably also a lot more there that like we don't know about into that sort of time period.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.680
And then as we move through the medieval period, we begin to get a range of different prosthetics.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:14.960
Earlier on, there's some medieval peg legs that I think are fascinating because you couldn't amputate the limb because it was so risky.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.519
You've got the kind of peg leg that comes down, but behind it, like a tray for you to bend your knee and put your leg in.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:28.640
So you've got these kind of prosthetics for conditions that don't result in amputation in the very later period, the sort of mechanized ones.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.759
And then I feel like historians so often are like, ah, and then we jump to the wall.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.119
I'm like, no, there's so much in between that's fascinating.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:42.720
Moving through the early modern period, one of the big changes is we begin to see more prosthetic legs developing.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:47.680
There's a famous prosthetic leg that you might know of called the angle sea leg that develops a little later.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:54.480
People began to work out sort of knee joints and mechanized legs, and also you know, surviving the amputations as well.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.200
The industrial revolution is another major turning point.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:03.920
Uh so suddenly you've got people working in factories, being at a much higher risk for losing limbs.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.440
Um, but those people are poor people, so whether or not they get access to prosthetics is, you know, limited.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:20.319
And then eventually, as we begin to move into the 20th century, we've got these major changes that come around because of the wars and because so many men were losing limbs.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.519
I think it's fascinating that that's the exact same parallel with the Middle Ages, right?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:29.519
You've got the men on the battlefield sustaining the injuries, and that pushes forward the need for the prosthetics.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.000
And the same thing happens, you know, 500 years later.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:40.240
I think we want this big history of change and improvement, and you know, as you say, the technological improvement has been massive.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.000
The stuff that you're talking about, like muscle sensors and all of that.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:33:02.240
But actually, I think it's more of a circle than a line, like you're saying before, thinking about like the nights and the empowerment and not necessarily having prosthetics that need to look like body parts, or or thinking about these problems that people are facing in terms of access to prosthetics and gender and prosthetics.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.480
They're all stuff that we're still talking about now, right?
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.559
It's it's all the same conversations.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:11.599
So, um, yeah, I think we we want this line, but I think it's more of a circle.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.920
I think we're we're looping around similar questions.
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:15.839
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.519
That makes complete sense.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.759
And you've you scared me a little bit because I was my next question.
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:28.319
I was gonna ask you like, what are some patterns that you've noted that you'd suspect to see more into the future, like in the circle?
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:30.799
And you kind of just said there, like war.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:39.440
Kind of it was war, and then it was innovation, which scares me because I'm like, come okay, let's stop the loop here.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:40.480
Can we not?
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:52.799
Because oh, can't you just picture that in like 600 more years' time we're having some weird dystopian war, and then suddenly prosthetics come on leaps and bounds again, but at what cost?
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.640
Look at sci-fi literature, right?
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.400
That's what sci-fi literature is about.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:04.400
Uh, the minute you start getting into your your sci-fi stuff, it's all cyborgs and cybernetics and transhumanism and yeah.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:05.920
Well, yeah, I'm not ready.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:06.720
I'm not ready.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.480
Yeah, what comes next is is is super interesting.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:20.800
I just hope we I mean, obviously that the things continue to progress, but also um that we just address some of like the basic stuff.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:35.760
Um, so uh one of the studies that I was reading recently was about um war veterans in the States uh and the prosthetics that they're issued, and the prosthetic legs that war veterans are issued were never designed for women.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:51.679
So suddenly you've got female war veterans and they're offered these limbs that don't fit, that are uncomfortable, that don't hinge in a way that allows women to go to the toilet because they don't assume you're sort of sitting down to go to the toilet regularly, um, and and things like that.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.760
Um and we've got similar problems.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.519
So, like um thinking about different people's like cultural and religious practices.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:18.800
There's a really, really cool company at the moment who are making um prosthetic limbs in India, who are thinking about prosthetic legs and prosthetic feet that can be barefoot so that you can go into the temples and pray and fulfill those sort of um those sort of kneeling stances and things that you need for prayer uh without wearing through the rubber of the prosthetic feet.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:24.960
Um, so I don't know, I think these these questions around uh live experience, what do people need them for?
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:41.599
What are people's like gendered experiences, religious experiences, cultural experiences, and getting that right, like going back to basics of it and thinking about the diversity of people's lives and the diversity of people who use prosthetics would be what I would want to see before we get to cyborgs.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:43.679
Let's just get the basics there.
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:52.239
Oh my god, yes, because if we get to cyborgs and the men are equipped with killer prosthetics and the girls can't even pee in theirs, we have a problem.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:54.159
We have a problem.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:55.920
Oh, okay.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:00.239
I feel like I need to I need to twist the conversation into a more positive feeling.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.599
Because um, are you an optimist?
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.039
Let's let's start there.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.199
In the future, are you a tech optimist?
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.719
Do you do you believe that technology can be used for good?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.239
And realistically, do you think it will be used for good in the future?
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:15.440
Oh, I think it can be.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:23.280
I think absolutely it can be, but I think what we've already said about the relationship between war and technology is um is scary.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:40.320
Yeah, and and I think a lot of advancements in technology come from uh thinking about uh the economy and capitalism and political power, um, nuclear warfare, you know, all of those terrifying, awful things.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:51.280
I think that the the the use for good often filters down out of more sinister applications, unfortunately.
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.679
Yeah, yeah, I think it's either way, it's so important to talk about.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:04.400
Like we we actually did just discover the pattern between war and technology, like that's a terrifying like thing, right?
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:18.079
Um, I feel like we need to you know we need to be funding funding doctors and researchers and and give them the money they need to innovate um in in medical tech because yeah, there are people there who are doing amazing work.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:18.960
100%.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:24.320
And I think that's why I started this podcast really is to like to try and spotlight some of the good.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:29.119
Because like, I mean, I've personally been like benefited so much by technology.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:36.000
Like, I literally wear two bonacans now, and yeah, it took all this all of this history and all this innovation to get here.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:43.760
And I feel like that's why I consider myself a tech optimist because I've like experienced that first hand, like you saw in my presentation that I did back in Leeds.
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:53.599
It was like, here's what I've been able to help co-design with a company, here's who it's able to affect in like another country in the world, you know, and help them with their day-to-day.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.480
So I definitely think you know, the potential is there.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:01.039
I definitely think medical technology deserves so many more flowers.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:06.880
Like, we don't talk about it half as much as we talk about anything bad.
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:23.679
So I think very true it's so important to like, you know, think seriously about this stuff and think seriously about the future and notice and give more praise to all the amazing things technology is doing in the present, you know, before we get carried away.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:35.360
Yeah, and I think one of the things that I like to do when I'm talking about my research or I'm working with students or whatever is try and reframe how we understand technology and how we understand disability technology.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:40.079
So, like one of the things I say to the students is like, how many people in this room are wearing glasses?
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:44.079
And the reason I say this is because glasses are so ubiquitous, right?
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:48.559
Like everybody knows somebody who wears glasses, if not ourselves.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:56.800
Um, and uh normally there's most people in my seminars are wearing glasses, and I go, This was a disability technology.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:06.400
It's just because it's become ubiquitous because everybody knows glasses, because they're cheap, because they're accessible, because yeah, you can get them as a kid on the NHS.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:13.119
Um that we don't think of it as a technology or as a disability technology, but it's so important.
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:25.599
So I think, yeah, it would be great to be at a more ubiquitous stage with other kinds of medical technology in that it's just it's just normalized, it's accessible, it's it's everyday.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:27.519
Yeah, 100%.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.440
I could not agree more.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:36.559
And I feel like there is some like really exciting medical processes slash you know, medical and technology coming together.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.719
Like the neural interfaces, I feel like will be a big thing for prosthetics.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:52.639
Like, I know everyone has their ethical concerns about that and the cybersecurity of it all, but again, when we can if we can trust this technology, it will it'll be incredible.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:00.400
Like it'll give people with prosthetics like the ability to like feel through them, you know, to be able to control it with a thought, like you use your hands, you know, stuff like that.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.840
And it's really sad that we need to like make way for all the bad before we let the good in, you know.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:09.280
And another one is like osteo integration, that's what people are doing.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:16.880
Where I don't know if you've heard of that, where like the metal screw comes out of the arm and the hand seems to work so much better.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:25.920
Like, there's all sorts like that that I really hope become more accessible and become life-changing for people all over, because that's the other thing as well.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.440
Like, I always say, What's the point of good technology if nobody can actually use it?
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:44.559
Like, we're not we're not in the medieval times, we don't use prosec as a status symbol, like you know, everybody deserves what can help them live a more full life, and I feel like we're all in agreement of that, but it's just difficult to actually get there.
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.559
So that's definitely my hope.
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.159
If there's anybody I trust to dive into these topics, it's you.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.199
I I've genuinely learned so much.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:12.000
Like I said, it was kind of like, well, when I was intimidated, I'll be real, when I pulled up to Leeds, and they were like, Okay, and now and now, Ray, she's uh she's a prosthetics historian, she does it way back when, and I'm there talking about my like tiny 10-year evolution, you know.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:20.000
So I feel like it's been so useful for me just to be aware of like all the history that's got us to where we are when it comes to prosthetics.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.840
And thank you so much for all the research that you've done and shared with me today.
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:26.159
No, and thank you for sharing your experiences.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:30.239
Like you say it's like 10 years, but the amount that's changed in those 10 years, right?
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:37.440
And and how some of the things that you're thinking about and your concerns are just as much reflected in the past as well is just super cool.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:38.960
I find it all really interesting.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.639
Thank you so much, Ray.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.039
It's been so nice chatting to you.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:44.800
I want to plug you.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:46.639
Where can we find you or your work?
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:48.159
Anybody want to stay up to date?
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:49.519
Where can we find you?
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:50.719
Oh, I'm on there.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:57.199
I'm on Blue Sky and LinkedIn and and all those social media things as Ray Jillybrand, so you can find me there.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:07.039
Um, I also have a super out-of-date website which is raygillybrand.com, um, which perhaps over this summer I'll update and it'll be new and shiny.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.840
Uh otherwise, uh my work profile.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:15.039
If you just search for Ray Jillybrand University of Leeds, you'll you'll find me and you can drop me a line there.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:16.719
Yay! Awesome.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.679
I definitely hope they do encourage them to as well.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.280
Like I said, I've learned so much.
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.360
I hope anybody listening has learned so much.
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:27.199
And who knows, maybe I'll see you back at another speaking event somewhere.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.519
We have a very specific niche for me and you.
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:30.880
I'd love that.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:31.679
That'd be great.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:33.119
Yay, thank you, Ray.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.280
Because goddamn, it's a whole world out there.
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:12.800
Definitely do check out Ray.
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:14.000
She is a queen.
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.159
I'd killed a sit in on one of her lectures.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.159
If you did like it, make sure to like, comment, and subscribe.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:19.119
Share with a friend.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.719
Let me know what else you want to see.
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.400
I have some incredible guests lined up.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.440
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Tilly Talks Tech season two.
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.119
I hope you're enjoying it so far.
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:28.159
I really am.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:29.519
I'll see you all next time.
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.400
Bye.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.240
My most popular video that I've ever put out on YouTube was me to do my collections.
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:09.839
I've been doing this since I was two my dear.
00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:13.599
I don't feel like this evolution in my first experience.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:18.640
And I feel great about my knowledge until I didn't talk in leads and I got humbled.
00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:30.800
Because I listened to my presentation was barely scratching the extensive history of 3x, medical devices, human augmentation even that built on before my personal experience.
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:34.960
And all the ways that humans have been augmented in their bodies since the dawn of time.
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.159
Well, maybe not literally.
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:41.039
Well today I have on the professor who told me all about the history of my presence.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.479
And I'll eat my words of that first video I made that you guys really liked.
00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:46.560
That was not the prosthetic evolution.
00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:47.359
This is.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:51.200
Hello and welcome to the podcast Ray Gillibrand.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:52.880
Oh, it's so nice to be here.
00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:53.920
Thanks for having me to chat.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:01.280
I'm dying to know, like, how far back does your knowledge actually go when it comes to augmenting the body throughout history?
00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.040
I mostly focus on the medieval period.
00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:12.319
So roughly 1400 to 1600 is where a lot of like the main research that I've done has been.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:22.319
But we've got evidence for prosecs going way, way back, like way back to ancient Egypt, even um to the Etruscan civilization.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:29.120
Yeah, because isn't I do know I feel like the origin of Prisetics, as far as we know, was like Egyptian times, right?
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:30.879
With was it like a wooden toe?
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.120
Yeah, yeah, there was a wooden toe that was found.
00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:44.480
So so interesting, especially to see like how far they've come here today, to think way back when it was like a wooden toe, and that was like supposedly the beginning, but like let's be honest, probably not.
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.040
I feel like that's mad that that's just the earliest it is on on record, you know.
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:51.280
What intrigued you into that world?
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.640
Because obviously for me it's pretty like self-explanatory, right?
00:01:54.879 --> 00:02:00.959
But I was just interested in like why you decided to take this path and learn all about this.
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:09.360
Yeah, so I'm I've just always been interested in in history, interested in thinking about the voices of people who are left out of historical records.
00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:18.800
Um, we can talk about this later, but there's like there's loads of um, you know, kings and queens who we might consider to have uh disabilities or physical impairments by today's standards.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:26.319
But I just love the ordinary people, like just day-to-day people and like resurfacing their voices and making sure their stories are heard.
00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:31.360
Yeah, it's super interesting because I was talking to somebody else lastie doesn't on the podcast.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.400
She's called Gracie McGonagall, and she was an actress in Bridget Inn, missing a hand.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:47.039
And obviously, Bridget Inn is like set way back in like Victorian times or whatever, and she got some people being like they they had a hard time envisioning her in that world.
00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.319
But I'm like, you know, we didn't what did we do then?
00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:53.039
We didn't just cease to exist back then, you know.
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.479
It's like it just hasn't been documented, but obviously we were there.
00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:57.919
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:58.719
It's wild.
00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.360
I need to go back and listen to that episode because I love Bridgerton.
00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:02.879
Um I know exactly who you mean.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:08.960
Yeah, I I teach a module at Leeds, um, which is called Dread and Despair.
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.759
Question mark, living with disability in the Middle Ages.
00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:23.439
Because there was a historian back in the 1990s who said that if you had limb loss or disability in in the Middle Ages, you could have had nothing but a life of dread and despair.
00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:26.479
And it's not true, it's just not true.
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:34.960
Like all of the historical sources say otherwise, like people's lives were just as weird and diverse and good and bad as they are today.
00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:35.599
You know what?
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:36.719
Let's just get into it.
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.759
You said like there's some like kings and queens and like all sorts throughout history who who might have had disabilities.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:43.120
Like, who might we know?
00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.639
It it depends what you're counting as like a disability.
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:53.280
I think about disabilities, anything society enforces that makes life difficult for you.
00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:59.840
In that way, I've looked at people like Richard III, who had scoliosis.
00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:05.759
Um, so he was um a medieval king in the late 1400s and he had curvature of the spine.
00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:14.879
Um, and I've thought a lot about him and whether or not we can even consider him disabled, because he can do everything that he's expected to as a man, as a king.
00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:28.160
People are beginning to ask now whether um Henry VIII had sort of neurological conditions um that might have come into play after he um he fell from his horse and had a really nasty accident when he was jousting.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:34.399
Um, and so people are beginning to sort of ask, you know, was he did he have some kind of like acquired neurodivergence?
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:42.000
Um so like these big figures that we like, we all really know, like everybody growing up in a British school system has heard of Henry VIII.
00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:47.199
People are beginning to say, oh, maybe there are these stories underneath that what we've not kind of investigated.
00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:55.839
Yeah, and speaking of real stories as well, because we know that prosthetics like ranged right back at the start, they were like wooden, they were like hooks and things like that.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.839
The things we picture when we like think about medieval prosetics, that's what we picture.
00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.519
At a certain point, they became mechanical, right?
00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:08.399
And I read your article about knights and processes, speaking of real stories.
00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:14.480
So there's this medieval knight called Gitz von Berlicking, and he's one of my favorites, I love him.
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.560
He's really interesting for a few reasons.
00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:25.279
So he lives at the end of the 1400s, and he's a really unique case study because he leaves behind an autobiography.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:35.600
So we've got writing that he's you know done about himself, so we've actually got his perspective, but we also have two of his prophetic arms that survive still to this day.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:40.240
Um, so what would that be if they were made in the late 1400s, over 600 years old?
00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:41.680
So that's crazy.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:49.600
And his autobiography is fascinating because he presents himself as sort of hyper masculine, um, and he's real sort of trouble.
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:59.439
Like he gets off on these little tangents about like, oh, how he tried to stab someone who was annoying him with a bread knife at a banquet and all kinds of nonsense.
00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:05.680
I think I think if I'm remembering right, the reason he did that was because this guy had pretty hair and he was angry at him for having pretty hair, you know.
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.439
Happens to the best of us.
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:09.120
Be in trouble.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:19.279
Um, but then we get to this point where he's in his he's in his early twenties, he's um a mercenary knight, so he's a knight, he would have been fully armored, on a horse.
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:29.360
He says he's riding into battle and he raises his sword hand above his head, um, so his right hand to strike down on an enemy when a cannon fires through his arm.
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:34.879
Um the cannon was fired by his own men, so bit of bit of friendly fire there.
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.839
Yeah, I saw that I saw that little tip in the article.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:39.360
Oops.
00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:44.800
Um, he says he looks down, he sees his arm um dangling from a strip of skin.
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.839
Um, and he says that he pretends it doesn't matter.
00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:50.240
He turns his horse around and he goes back to his camp.
00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:59.040
A little bit down the line, he says that you know, he was thinking about what he could do once the rest of his arm had been amputated, and he remembers another knight.
00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:04.399
Um, I think it's uh an uncle of one of his friends who also has a prosthetic arm.
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:09.519
And so he decides to get a prosthetic built for him that is of a similar kind of design.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:32.720
This arm then that he gets built is fully mechanized, I guess, obviously not to the same standards as today, um, but it uses a lot of what back then was cutting-edge technology um in terms of things like the technology you'd find in clockmaking and the technology you'd find in like locksmithing and that kind of very delicate mechanisms.
00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:41.839
Um and a lot of that technology came out of sort of Islamic science where they were working on making robots, like automata.
00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.319
Um, so it was it was early robotics.
00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:56.319
Anyway, he gets this hand commissioned, and all of the fingers can be moved, they can be sort of set in position, uh, they can also be then released back into an open position by pressing a button on the the back of the palm.
00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.040
So it gives him quite a range of of movements.
00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:04.240
So that one was that like body powered in a sense that you would literally just like push the fingers shut.
00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:05.600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.920
So a ratchet mechanism, I suppose.
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.639
So you had like various levels of movement.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.959
So you could have them sort of fully open, partially open, partially closed and closed.
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:21.600
Um, but yeah, it did require body movement, as you say, to do that and to sort of set it in place.
00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:37.039
Yeah, it's super interesting because obviously there's a variety of prosthetics available here today, like ones that require like a lot more motors and like EMG sensors, but I feel like it's really interesting because you don't see those hooks gone.
00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:49.039
Like people still can lean towards body-powered prosthetics, and I feel like we really underestimate them in like what they can do, like they're powered by the human body, it feels very like intuitive.
00:08:49.279 --> 00:09:00.799
And while we like got so carried away with like technology in the sense of like tiny motors and muscle sensors and neural link, like all of those crazy things as well.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:08.159
I feel like there's something to be said for like the beginning of prosthetics and the fact that it was body powered, like it all came from the body, yeah.
00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:16.000
And I suppose while the technology can go wrong, the ratchets could come loose or I don't know, get clunky or stuck.
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.440
It's really hard to break when it's body powered.
00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:19.919
Yeah.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:31.200
Well, clearly, if he's still got his hand around from like 600 years ago, like I look at the one I had when I was three, and it was like tied together by elastic bands, and that's like decaying, it's moldy.
00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:32.480
Like, what?
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:33.360
That's crazy.
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:39.679
It's really cool to see back then, like how they got on with Prisset Eggs with such limited technology.
00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:44.159
Like, I actually saw a video, you might have seen it, like it resurfaced a couple of years ago.
00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:50.960
It claims to be a man from 1921 who was an engineer, and he's like basically doing a demonstration.
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:52.080
Do you know what I'm talking about?
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:53.519
I know the video, yeah, yeah.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:10:00.159
Yes, I had to go searching for it before I got on the call to you because I was like, I want to slot it into the video 34 seconds in.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.320
He's oh, he's taking it off.
00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:07.200
Like, I just find that mad how he's doing that because it's obviously an amputation from like the shoulder.
00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:08.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:09.360
And then he puts it back on.
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:10.960
It's very similar to this one.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.679
He's it's a sling, it's over the two shoulders.
00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:22.480
I love the beginning bit at the beginning where he shows that it's got this lever mechanism that ratchets the fingers closed and then he ratchets it backwards to open them up.
00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:23.120
I'm doing it.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:24.639
Yes, exactly.
00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.320
Um, which is very, very similar to the medieval designs.
00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:37.120
Like it's it's not that different, it's just that you've got this easier ratchet on the outside rather than physically doing it with your hand.
00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:37.759
Yeah.
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.039
Um, they still have those today because I've never seen that.
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:44.080
Yeah, I suppose maybe we're we're beyond it a little bit.
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.879
Yeah, I'm watching it now, and then he's yeah, he takes it on and off.
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.240
Are you you're on the bit where he's like unscrewing the hands and that?
00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.279
Yeah, so hang on, let me show you on this one.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.039
It's it's not so dissimilar.
00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:56.000
On this one, yeah.
00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:06.799
So the hand comes off first of all, separately, so you can put on the others, but also this section of the lower arm comes off if it's not been played with by loads of kids at public engagement events.
00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:15.360
That means then that you can attach from further up the arm, which is what he seems to be doing with this this gripper kind of thing that he has.
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:21.200
Because I guess that gives him a little bit more flexibility in where the pressure's coming from with the use of the tools.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:26.240
Yeah, but it's it's just like that one in the sense that you take the hand off, you replace it with a tool.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.360
Yeah, he like replaces it with a hammer as well, and it's like a literal hammer, it's great, yeah.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.120
And then and then it can be a hand.
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:33.600
I don't know.
00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.120
See that bit at the end where he's like he tries to smoke.
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.039
Oh, his hand seems like it moves.
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:40.559
Oh, I'm gonna watch that again.
00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:41.519
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:42.559
How is he doing that?
00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:43.919
How is he doing that?
00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:52.639
Because he he brings his hand together to hold the cigarette and then opens it to what it's interesting, isn't it?
00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:54.799
Do you know can we not figure that out?
00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:55.919
Do we not know what that is?
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.600
Because that's given EMGs, but I don't think they had them then.
00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:06.320
I wonder if there's some kind of pressure because he he brings his hand up and he sort of drops it, doesn't he?
00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:14.480
So I'm wondering if there's like a pressure, and then as he puts his hand down, it opens up again, and then he does the same like the same pulling back to hold the glass.
00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.279
Yeah, it's so impressive, regardless.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:18.480
Like super cool.
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.159
It's not my time period, but um not mine either.
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.799
No, that was just a fun little experiment.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.879
I was like, because that video like caught me off guard and caught everybody off guard.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:37.519
We were like, wait, we could do that in 1921, like because I feel like there's also a lot of misinformation on the internet, and like looking at that video, that looks fab.
00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.080
And then you remember it was 1921.
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:46.399
So I wanted to run it past you as like the historian and the person who's done all the research.
00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.120
Like, can you confirm or deny that's true, right?
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.840
That was 1921 mechanics.
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:53.440
I think so.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.039
Yeah, I think I think it's a real video.
00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.720
I think this is Irish, though, isn't it?
00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.840
Black Rock Special Hospital was in Dublin.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:00.559
Yeah, it was.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:01.279
It was in Dublin.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:02.240
So cool.
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:13.279
They were a very um fancy hospital established after the first world war that were specifically about prosthetics and and patients who'd lost limbs.
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:31.120
I've um I've brought these to show you.
00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:32.799
So I thought you'd like these.
00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:38.720
These are from the 1960s, um, but they're all different hands from the 1960s.
00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:44.879
I love these because I I always give them to students to confuse them and ask them, you know, what do they think they're all for?
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.480
So this one is for holding a spade because it's got that wrist rotation.
00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:52.559
I see that, I see that.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:58.960
We've got one here for fishing, holding a fishing rod, and this one is holding a snooker cue.
00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.240
This one, which has got like a whole toilet plunger.
00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:03.759
It totally does.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:05.519
It's kind of the same idea.
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:13.120
It was for putting over a car gear stick to to drive an old-fashioned car gear stick.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.000
Um, and then that one is like squidgy for holding um pools, like nippins of wax.
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:19.279
Yeah.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:28.639
Um, and they're all together because they were all marketed for men, because it's so gendered, and they're all things that men would like to do.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:33.679
You know, you go, you play snooker, you go fishing, you do the gardening, all that kind of stuff.
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.320
What if what if we want to go fishing and gardening, bro?
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:42.399
The women made by the same company, they get potato peelers, so you can get a prosthetic handle.
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:44.480
Yeah, no doubt.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.120
That is, I mean, that sounds incredibly useful.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:54.559
My family literally asked me what I wanted for Christmas like earlier this year, and I was like, a potato peeler, Loki, but also like what?
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.879
That's crazy, the gender norms of that.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:58.159
I know, I know.
00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:02.159
Uh, women also get a broom attachment for sweeping the floor.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.360
Um Bro, why is this making me mad?
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.639
Like all useful, but like, why are they just for women?
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:14.879
And it's like, this is what I love about studying prosthetics is that on the face of it, you're looking at technology, right?
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:16.080
And it's it's really cool.
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:27.039
But when you drill down into it and you think about the lived experience, you get into gender norms and society and what's expected of people, and and that's the stuff that I find fascinating as well.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:36.879
And I think that the ones I just showed you are such a good example of that because they give you an insight into like what it was to be a man and a woman in in the 1960s.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:48.240
When it comes to obviously medieval times as well, like we're clutching at straws trying to make these like devices, which actually work way back when, which is super, super cool.
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.799
But there was also the matter of like surgeries and things like that.
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.559
Like, that's something I always think about.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:12.799
I was wondering if you knew about like the history of like amputation and when that became like an option for people who were maybe injured in the war or had a disease because I know it was not, I mean, it's not easy now, amputation is always difficult, but I know it was literally like it's like a hacksaw back in the day, right?
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:14.720
Yeah, not fun.
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:29.360
No, it's interesting because as you go back into sort of the earlier middle ages, there is evidence of some amputations, um, but they are always at the wrists or at the ankles, and at sort of thinner body parts.
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:42.399
Um you very, very rarely see amputations like above the knee, for example, where you've got to go through like the femoral arteries um or above the elbows where you've got to get through um, you know, more kind of flesh.
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:58.399
It's not until we get to the sort of late 1400s-ish, where we get um a surgeon called Ambrose Parray who begins to pioneer a new technique of helping people with amputations.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.399
And because of what he's doing, more people then begin to survive them.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:07.200
And that's why in this time we then see an influx of prosthetics.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:21.359
Yeah, the ability to survive, not just the amputation itself, so not just like you know, bleeding out on the battlefield, but then surviving the uh the kind of trauma of it and then surviving infection, it's just an absolute nightmare.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:26.079
But what Haré invented was he would take a little bit longer.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:39.440
This is gonna get gory now, so content warning so trigger warning rather than cutting straight through the limb and it you know, bleeding out, and then what people would often do was caurterize it with a hot iron, he would leave like a flap of skin.
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:52.240
Um, and then what he would do is he would sew off the major veins and arteries, then put the flap of skin over the open wound and sew it back round so it would um heal up together much more neatly.
00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:00.880
And provided that that didn't get infected, which it totally could, it was much more effective than the earlier method of you know amputating corterites.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:01.920
Yeah.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:03.279
God, that's crazy.
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.559
They they were just figuring all of this out in real time.
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.079
Yeah, you wouldn't want to be the person they were testing it on, would you?
00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.160
I literally think about that all the time.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.119
I'm like, if I would have been born in a different era, I don't get you actually wouldn't even be alive.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:22.880
So we genuinely have like medical, you know, advancements and technology to thank for that.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.039
Like now that even when I was like getting my hands amputated, it was a it was a conversation.
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.079
It was like, will she be interested in prosthetics in the future?
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.640
Like, obviously, I was too young to make that decision at the time.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.039
I was like one when I had my hands amputated.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:46.640
But the fact that the conversation of prosthetics was like a present conversation being had, like before my amputations, I feel like that just goes to show like how much better it is now.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:19:09.119
Because right off the bat, you know, you've never looked into prosthetics in your life, but then there's a whole world to unfold, and there's so many historians and scientists and like doctors who have made that possible today for me to even first of all be alive, but then second of all, get to wear something like this, which is just so cool and so awesome.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:32.240
I wanted to ask you, what do you think was the most like groundbreaking discovery in Prisetics to help sort of propel the industry forward?
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.440
Whether that was like a material, a certain era where something just clicked for them.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:43.279
Because I feel like we had our own version of that, like in recent years in the modern day, with like 3D printing.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:51.359
3D printing came around and suddenly prosetics was more lightweight, more affordable, like easier to create, all of these different things.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.160
And I was wondering like we must have had a version of that back in back in the day.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:57.920
Oh, it's such a good question.
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:18.720
Um, and I think it's really interesting because sort of the material side of it is interesting, because when we're looking at the medieval period, and I suppose it's not so dissimilar today, the prosthetics that you had access to really, really depended on what money you had, what influence you had, um and also like what your job was as well.
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.680
Like some people just wouldn't need something fancy, so you're not gonna pay for it because you don't need it.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:30.960
At least in the time period I'm looking at, one of the biggest kind of leap forwards is collaboration.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:36.799
Um and we still see massive points of progression with collaboration today, right?
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:43.519
As well, like as you said, uh doctors, historians, uh various different scholars, engineers, whoever.
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.480
Um, and it's the same when we go back to like the late 1400s.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:55.839
So there's this point where when we're looking at the development of prosthetics, you've got uh medical professionals like Ambrose Paret, who's like literally like designing them.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.599
He has a good understanding of how human bodies work and the sort of mechanics.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:13.759
And then he will use this kind of um legacy of scholarship and understanding of technology and mechanisms that comes from the sort of um Islamic tradition.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.599
So he's drawing on this like really long history of sort of scholarship.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:30.240
But then what he was doing is he was taking all of that to local blacksmiths uh and saying, Hey, look, how do I make a case for this like mechanism to go in like an actual hand?
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.160
And the blacksmith would be like, right, I know the materials, I know that iron, I'm gonna do that.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:42.720
And then he would go and take that to a locksmith and go, right, I need someone now who can actually make the mechanism inside and do that.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:54.079
So we get this collaboration between blacksmiths, between locksmiths, clockmakers, doctors, all based on this like really long intellectual tradition of science and scholarship.
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.720
And together they're making prosthetics.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, and I think it's that, I think it's the communication between people with.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.359
Different areas of expertise.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:07.599
To be able to like share that knowledge and create something as revolutionary for the time as like a prosthetic.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:13.200
To send this guy back into war, riding a horse, and be able to wield a sword with that.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.839
I think that is just so mad.
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:20.319
Yeah, and he he like he uses it to like get a reputation as well.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.880
He becomes known as Guts the Iron Hand.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:32.079
Um he goes from being like quite shy about it or awkward about it and not really wanting to talk about it, to being like, oh no, I'm this guy.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.119
Um, and and really making it like a facet of his identity.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:42.640
Well, to be honest, I feel like if his whole thing was like macho yai, an iron hand, you know, kind of kind of adds to that swagger.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:46.000
If you ask me, I might be biased, but yeah, yeah.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.960
The thing you raise about the sort of macho side of things is super important to Guts.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:23:01.200
It's an interesting conversation to think about how they were perceived, you know, because even today I feel like prosthetics are perceived differently.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:09.599
Like, I feel like as somebody who wears prosthetics, I am perceived differently whether I'm wearing them or whether I'm not wearing them.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:12.079
You know, like I feel like that's still very present today.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.039
And I think about like the olden times, like you feel like they're very discriminatory.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:28.400
So it's actually quite nice to think, you know, once he came into his power and he got this prosthetic for himself, he went back out there and he like got down to business like he did once before.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:33.519
I feel like there's something really inspiring in that for like today's, you know, amputees.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.119
I want to talk about prosthetics in like film and pop culture.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:43.359
As a historian, I feel like you would look at that differently, like because you know all the ins and outs, you know.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:48.079
What has been your favorite depiction of a prosthetic if you have one at all, or maybe you hate it?
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.640
I don't know.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.400
Oh, so I guess there's like favorite and what is good as well.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:24:04.240
So um I I use Jamie Lannister's golden hand from Game of Thrones uh when I'm talking to my students a lot, because I go, hey, look at this.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:12.400
You'd imagine this is what they've had in the Middle Ages, but no, and then we we look at what actually existed, which is way more sophisticated than what he's represented with.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.960
I'm like, oh, if if Jamie Lannister had been a medieval knight, he could have had something so much better than the golden hand.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:28.559
But in terms of what is good in the TV show Vikings, there's a character in Vikings called Ivar the Boneless who is a real historical figure as well.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:34.319
We know that he's got some impairment of his legs, um, that means that he finds it hard to walk.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:48.720
Um, and um in the show they depict him with these sort of like little hand trestles, so they almost look like like a little bar that you hold on to with four legs coming off the bottom that he uses to drag himself along on the ground.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:25:01.359
Um and these were something that we see in medieval artwork like all the time, they're associated with disability and poverty, so they're like the total opposite of these amazing prosthetics that the knights had.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:11.839
They were like very simple to make and could be used by people without many resources or the money to afford better things, and it was so nice to see that end of the scale being represented in a TV show.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.960
Yeah, definitely.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:17.440
Because like that, that is, I feel like what people think of first when it comes to medieval.
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:21.200
Like we think of like hooks and like peg legs, like naturally you do.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.160
I think about like how to train your dragon, like he's walking on a still.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.279
Do you know what I mean?
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:35.519
What else I found I find interesting is like when I was growing up looking into prosthetics, all that was offered to me growing up were prosthetics that looked super realistic.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:40.400
But I feel like it's even more interesting to know that it that wasn't the beginning of it.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:46.559
Like at the start, they were metal, they were wood, they were functional, they were like, this is how we make a prosthetic work.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:57.440
The reason I thought they were all realistic is because of people losing limbs in like more recent wars, and then the soldiers coming home and they don't want to remember the fact they've lost their arm.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:02.000
So they had like cosmetic prosetics before they had prosthetics that would move.
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.599
And that was genuinely like the history that I was aware of.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:10.400
Kind of like we've done a full circle, because that's what we're going for now, right?
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:16.880
Like we have got metal, and it's all about how much you can carry and like the the load they can take.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.079
We we like ran over these with a truck during testing to make sure they were durable, you know.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:34.880
I find that like full circle really interesting that they were like that, and then they got quite realistic, and now we're back to making rugged prosthetics that really work.
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.799
Yeah, and I think um I think this comes back to gender as well.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:47.440
Like in the medieval period, the people who are most likely to have prosthetics were men um and elite men.
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:55.680
So like you were most likely to lose a limb on the battlefield, that's the situation in which it was most likely.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:01.039
Um and the men on the battlefield who could then afford prosthetics were the knights.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.880
So you've got the patriarchy, right?
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.160
If it's men who are using them, then the there's that empowerment.
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:23.279
Whereas as you move through history and you begin to see more prosthetics being developed for women who've lost limbs either like congenitally or through illness or disease, they become more body-like um and more about consulting.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:24.720
So right.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:34.960
Um, and so again, it's like you know, women are meant to be demure and hide these things, and and you begin to see that element creeping in, right?
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:38.720
So there's another medieval hand um called the Groninger hand.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:43.839
Um, and it's the only hand that I found in my research that I think belonged to a woman.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.279
Um, I don't know for sure.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:49.119
To me, it was a woman.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:51.839
It's it's super cool.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.640
It's it's kind of different to the other hands.
00:27:54.799 --> 00:28:00.960
Um, it's more delicate in its features, like the the wrist kind of comes in a little bit in a more delicate way.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:07.200
The fingers are sculpted to be more delicate, but the the fingers are made to look like fingers.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.640
Um, they have like little knuckles engraved in them.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.400
Um it's painted in a um in a flesh tone.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.400
Uh it doesn't look very flesh tone anymore because it's so old that the paint's kind of faded.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.000
But most interestingly, the elbow joint is exposed.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.599
That would give like quite a nice range of movement, but wouldn't be any good if you're on the battlefield.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:43.359
Like um, and then you've got the arm itself is partially wood, and again, wood is lighter weight, so it might be more suitable for a woman who in that period would be less strong than a man because women weren't like working out or training to be knights in the same way.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:50.079
Um, but also you don't want a wooden arm on the battlefield because you're gonna get rained on, it's it's gonna go moldy like the one from your childhood.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.079
Like you don't want that, you want iron.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:02.319
So I think that combination of like the exposed elbow joint, the finer sort of features, and the inclusion of wood in the design makes it all way more likely that this was made for a woman.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:08.000
And it's one of the ones that we see that is clearly painted to match you know, skin tone and that kind of thing.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:09.839
So already we're starting to get this.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:24.559
Wow, I love how you just have to look at very like nobody would notice this but the historians, and they would put two and two together and they'd be like, because you don't really know, but yeah, by the way you're describing it, that does sound like a woman's hand.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.799
You like figure that out like a mystery, you know?
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:32.319
And even if it if even if it is rooted in like patriarchy, it's like damn.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:44.000
The way you can like figure things out like that by looking at history, and we get to learn about like how Priscetics of today came to be, I find that so interesting.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.920
Have you ever seen Horrible Histories?
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.000
Yeah, I love Horrible Histories.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.880
I could totally see you just on Horrible Histories.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:07.839
I love that show.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:21.599
I want to do like a rundown right here, right now, of like each era of Prisset X, who they were for, what they were made of, what they could do, you know, from the beginning of time to like now.
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:24.880
Could you, you know, decipher the different eras?
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.640
Oh my goodness.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:34.480
Well, I think I think one of the things that people want to do with history is like put things in categories, and I I try to not do that.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:44.640
Like, um, one of the things that that I sort of say to my students is nobody was waking up on the 1st of January 1500 and being like, hmm, I feel early modern today.
00:30:44.799 --> 00:31:02.480
Like the lines, yeah, it's just the lines that we draw just don't quite work, but we see more sort of cosmetic prostheses to begin with, so things like that, Egyptian toe, probably also a lot more there that like we don't know about into that sort of time period.
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.680
And then as we move through the medieval period, we begin to get a range of different prosthetics.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:14.960
Earlier on, there's some medieval peg legs that I think are fascinating because you couldn't amputate the limb because it was so risky.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:21.519
You've got the kind of peg leg that comes down, but behind it, like a tray for you to bend your knee and put your leg in.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:28.640
So you've got these kind of prosthetics for conditions that don't result in amputation in the very later period, the sort of mechanized ones.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.759
And then I feel like historians so often are like, ah, and then we jump to the wall.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.119
I'm like, no, there's so much in between that's fascinating.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:42.720
Moving through the early modern period, one of the big changes is we begin to see more prosthetic legs developing.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:47.680
There's a famous prosthetic leg that you might know of called the angle sea leg that develops a little later.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:54.480
People began to work out sort of knee joints and mechanized legs, and also you know, surviving the amputations as well.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.200
The industrial revolution is another major turning point.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:03.920
Uh so suddenly you've got people working in factories, being at a much higher risk for losing limbs.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.440
Um, but those people are poor people, so whether or not they get access to prosthetics is, you know, limited.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:20.319
And then eventually, as we begin to move into the 20th century, we've got these major changes that come around because of the wars and because so many men were losing limbs.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.519
I think it's fascinating that that's the exact same parallel with the Middle Ages, right?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:29.519
You've got the men on the battlefield sustaining the injuries, and that pushes forward the need for the prosthetics.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.000
And the same thing happens, you know, 500 years later.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:40.240
I think we want this big history of change and improvement, and you know, as you say, the technological improvement has been massive.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.000
The stuff that you're talking about, like muscle sensors and all of that.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:33:02.240
But actually, I think it's more of a circle than a line, like you're saying before, thinking about like the nights and the empowerment and not necessarily having prosthetics that need to look like body parts, or or thinking about these problems that people are facing in terms of access to prosthetics and gender and prosthetics.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.480
They're all stuff that we're still talking about now, right?
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.559
It's it's all the same conversations.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:11.599
So, um, yeah, I think we we want this line, but I think it's more of a circle.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.920
I think we're we're looping around similar questions.
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:15.839
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.519
That makes complete sense.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.759
And you've you scared me a little bit because I was my next question.
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:28.319
I was gonna ask you like, what are some patterns that you've noted that you'd suspect to see more into the future, like in the circle?
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:30.799
And you kind of just said there, like war.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:39.440
Kind of it was war, and then it was innovation, which scares me because I'm like, come okay, let's stop the loop here.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:40.480
Can we not?
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:52.799
Because oh, can't you just picture that in like 600 more years' time we're having some weird dystopian war, and then suddenly prosthetics come on leaps and bounds again, but at what cost?
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.640
Look at sci-fi literature, right?
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.400
That's what sci-fi literature is about.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:04.400
Uh, the minute you start getting into your your sci-fi stuff, it's all cyborgs and cybernetics and transhumanism and yeah.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:05.920
Well, yeah, I'm not ready.
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:06.720
I'm not ready.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.480
Yeah, what comes next is is is super interesting.
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:20.800
I just hope we I mean, obviously that the things continue to progress, but also um that we just address some of like the basic stuff.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:35.760
Um, so uh one of the studies that I was reading recently was about um war veterans in the States uh and the prosthetics that they're issued, and the prosthetic legs that war veterans are issued were never designed for women.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:51.679
So suddenly you've got female war veterans and they're offered these limbs that don't fit, that are uncomfortable, that don't hinge in a way that allows women to go to the toilet because they don't assume you're sort of sitting down to go to the toilet regularly, um, and and things like that.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.760
Um and we've got similar problems.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.519
So, like um thinking about different people's like cultural and religious practices.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:18.800
There's a really, really cool company at the moment who are making um prosthetic limbs in India, who are thinking about prosthetic legs and prosthetic feet that can be barefoot so that you can go into the temples and pray and fulfill those sort of um those sort of kneeling stances and things that you need for prayer uh without wearing through the rubber of the prosthetic feet.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:24.960
Um, so I don't know, I think these these questions around uh live experience, what do people need them for?
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:41.599
What are people's like gendered experiences, religious experiences, cultural experiences, and getting that right, like going back to basics of it and thinking about the diversity of people's lives and the diversity of people who use prosthetics would be what I would want to see before we get to cyborgs.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:43.679
Let's just get the basics there.
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:52.239
Oh my god, yes, because if we get to cyborgs and the men are equipped with killer prosthetics and the girls can't even pee in theirs, we have a problem.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:54.159
We have a problem.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:55.920
Oh, okay.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:00.239
I feel like I need to I need to twist the conversation into a more positive feeling.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.599
Because um, are you an optimist?
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.039
Let's let's start there.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.199
In the future, are you a tech optimist?
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.719
Do you do you believe that technology can be used for good?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.239
And realistically, do you think it will be used for good in the future?
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:15.440
Oh, I think it can be.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:23.280
I think absolutely it can be, but I think what we've already said about the relationship between war and technology is um is scary.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:40.320
Yeah, and and I think a lot of advancements in technology come from uh thinking about uh the economy and capitalism and political power, um, nuclear warfare, you know, all of those terrifying, awful things.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:51.280
I think that the the the use for good often filters down out of more sinister applications, unfortunately.
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.679
Yeah, yeah, I think it's either way, it's so important to talk about.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:04.400
Like we we actually did just discover the pattern between war and technology, like that's a terrifying like thing, right?
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:18.079
Um, I feel like we need to you know we need to be funding funding doctors and researchers and and give them the money they need to innovate um in in medical tech because yeah, there are people there who are doing amazing work.
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:18.960
100%.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:24.320
And I think that's why I started this podcast really is to like to try and spotlight some of the good.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:29.119
Because like, I mean, I've personally been like benefited so much by technology.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:36.000
Like, I literally wear two bonacans now, and yeah, it took all this all of this history and all this innovation to get here.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:43.760
And I feel like that's why I consider myself a tech optimist because I've like experienced that first hand, like you saw in my presentation that I did back in Leeds.
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:53.599
It was like, here's what I've been able to help co-design with a company, here's who it's able to affect in like another country in the world, you know, and help them with their day-to-day.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.480
So I definitely think you know, the potential is there.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:01.039
I definitely think medical technology deserves so many more flowers.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:06.880
Like, we don't talk about it half as much as we talk about anything bad.
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:23.679
So I think very true it's so important to like, you know, think seriously about this stuff and think seriously about the future and notice and give more praise to all the amazing things technology is doing in the present, you know, before we get carried away.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:35.360
Yeah, and I think one of the things that I like to do when I'm talking about my research or I'm working with students or whatever is try and reframe how we understand technology and how we understand disability technology.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:40.079
So, like one of the things I say to the students is like, how many people in this room are wearing glasses?
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:44.079
And the reason I say this is because glasses are so ubiquitous, right?
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:48.559
Like everybody knows somebody who wears glasses, if not ourselves.
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:56.800
Um, and uh normally there's most people in my seminars are wearing glasses, and I go, This was a disability technology.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:06.400
It's just because it's become ubiquitous because everybody knows glasses, because they're cheap, because they're accessible, because yeah, you can get them as a kid on the NHS.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:13.119
Um that we don't think of it as a technology or as a disability technology, but it's so important.
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:25.599
So I think, yeah, it would be great to be at a more ubiquitous stage with other kinds of medical technology in that it's just it's just normalized, it's accessible, it's it's everyday.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:27.519
Yeah, 100%.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.440
I could not agree more.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:36.559
And I feel like there is some like really exciting medical processes slash you know, medical and technology coming together.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.719
Like the neural interfaces, I feel like will be a big thing for prosthetics.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:52.639
Like, I know everyone has their ethical concerns about that and the cybersecurity of it all, but again, when we can if we can trust this technology, it will it'll be incredible.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:00.400
Like it'll give people with prosthetics like the ability to like feel through them, you know, to be able to control it with a thought, like you use your hands, you know, stuff like that.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.840
And it's really sad that we need to like make way for all the bad before we let the good in, you know.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:09.280
And another one is like osteo integration, that's what people are doing.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:16.880
Where I don't know if you've heard of that, where like the metal screw comes out of the arm and the hand seems to work so much better.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:25.920
Like, there's all sorts like that that I really hope become more accessible and become life-changing for people all over, because that's the other thing as well.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.440
Like, I always say, What's the point of good technology if nobody can actually use it?
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:44.559
Like, we're not we're not in the medieval times, we don't use prosec as a status symbol, like you know, everybody deserves what can help them live a more full life, and I feel like we're all in agreement of that, but it's just difficult to actually get there.
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.559
So that's definitely my hope.
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.159
If there's anybody I trust to dive into these topics, it's you.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.199
I I've genuinely learned so much.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:12.000
Like I said, it was kind of like, well, when I was intimidated, I'll be real, when I pulled up to Leeds, and they were like, Okay, and now and now, Ray, she's uh she's a prosthetics historian, she does it way back when, and I'm there talking about my like tiny 10-year evolution, you know.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:20.000
So I feel like it's been so useful for me just to be aware of like all the history that's got us to where we are when it comes to prosthetics.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.840
And thank you so much for all the research that you've done and shared with me today.
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:26.159
No, and thank you for sharing your experiences.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:30.239
Like you say it's like 10 years, but the amount that's changed in those 10 years, right?
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:37.440
And and how some of the things that you're thinking about and your concerns are just as much reflected in the past as well is just super cool.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:38.960
I find it all really interesting.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.639
Thank you so much, Ray.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.039
It's been so nice chatting to you.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:44.800
I want to plug you.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:46.639
Where can we find you or your work?
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:48.159
Anybody want to stay up to date?
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:49.519
Where can we find you?
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:50.719
Oh, I'm on there.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:57.199
I'm on Blue Sky and LinkedIn and and all those social media things as Ray Jillybrand, so you can find me there.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:07.039
Um, I also have a super out-of-date website which is raygillybrand.com, um, which perhaps over this summer I'll update and it'll be new and shiny.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.840
Uh otherwise, uh my work profile.
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:15.039
If you just search for Ray Jillybrand University of Leeds, you'll you'll find me and you can drop me a line there.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:16.719
Yay! Awesome.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.679
I definitely hope they do encourage them to as well.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.280
Like I said, I've learned so much.
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.360
I hope anybody listening has learned so much.
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:27.199
And who knows, maybe I'll see you back at another speaking event somewhere.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.519
We have a very specific niche for me and you.
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:30.880
I'd love that.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:31.679
That'd be great.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:33.119
Yay, thank you, Ray.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.280
Because goddamn, it's a whole world out there.
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:12.800
Definitely do check out Ray.
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:14.000
She is a queen.
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.159
I'd killed a sit in on one of her lectures.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.159
If you did like it, make sure to like, comment, and subscribe.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:19.119
Share with a friend.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.719
Let me know what else you want to see.
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.400
I have some incredible guests lined up.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.440
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Tilly Talks Tech season two.
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.119
I hope you're enjoying it so far.
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:28.159
I really am.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:29.519
I'll see you all next time.
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.400
Bye.
