WEBVTT
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00:00:08.240Well, whenever you're thinking about a story, a learning, or something that is going to be benefiting people, try always to frame the learning problem.
00:00:08.480 -->
00:00:14.480So framing the learning problem is trying to understand the system that you're working with, not trying to do something that would replace the system.
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00:00:19.920System is the organization, the norms, the constraints, the forms of feedback, the liabilities, the pressures.
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00:00:23.920Try to simulate something that is close to it so people can interact with it.
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00:00:31.839If something gets completely alienated from reality, they're not going to be able to, well, feel that they're part of it.
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00:00:36.399And since they're not part of it, well, they're not going to have any ownership towards it.
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00:00:44.159So the more you frame towards a system, not replace it, you will get your endeavors cleared up, well, feasibly.
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00:00:49.759Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from.
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00:00:52.159Today we're gonna be diving back into story.
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00:00:56.000Now, a couple weeks ago, we were talking about story, and that's great, right?
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00:01:00.079It's always good to talk about story because stories they are the threads throughout our lives.
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00:01:05.280But we want to talk specifically about learning and design and using stories.
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00:01:07.599How do we actually get into actually applying these things?
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00:01:17.599Because there's a bunch of ideas about stories, and we learn a lot from watching movies and TVs and comic books, and again, all good, but how do we actually do it in the work that we're doing and we're asked to do every day?
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00:01:21.040So, our guest today is Mo Ash, and we're gonna welcome Mo.
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00:01:23.519Mo, welcome to the Visual Lounge.
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00:01:25.359Pleasure to be here.
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00:01:26.799Thank you so much for having me.
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00:01:29.040So, Mo, why don't you do us a favor?
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00:01:35.040Tell us a little bit about your background as how how are you in the position you're in?
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00:01:35.599What are you doing?
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00:01:37.519What kind of things should we know about you?
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00:01:43.120Um, well, I am uh A, I'm in Cairo, Egypt.
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00:01:46.640So I'm pretty far away from where you are.
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00:01:51.120And uh I've been in LD in general 18 years now.
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00:01:54.799So not a lot, but it's significant in a way or another.
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00:02:06.959I have been um I've been working in human resources, shifted to working in the UN, left the UN, went into LD, went into consultancy, and now instructional design.
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00:02:09.360And right now I own a company called The Catalyst.
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00:02:15.039We're focused on instructional design and building gamification systems and game-based learning products.
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00:02:16.000That's what I do.
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00:02:16.879That's awesome.
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00:02:18.639Well, and I'm so glad that you're here.
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00:02:26.319So I'm I'm guessing in your experiences, you've had to use story a fair amount in a variety of ways.
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00:02:33.680So, what if you're starting to kind of classify like how how should we be starting to think about where story could be applied?
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00:02:35.599What would you say?
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00:02:44.560If I'm going to be looking at the larger scheme of things, to me, any learning program synchronous, asynchronous, is actually a story.
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00:02:51.919From the moment a trainer starts to get in and engage with the people, he is building up, she is building up a hook.
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00:03:11.039They're building up the exposition of a story and then building up with all of the lessons to a specific climax where they will be doing the application and then reinforcing all the way to the closure or the ending where the training is set, done learning objectives are uh carried out.
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00:03:27.360If we're doing this from an e-learning perspective or an asynchronous perspective, whether that's a video or an e-learning, I am trying to immerse the people in an environment of my own creation, and I'm taking them in a scaffolded fashion from one point to the other.
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00:03:30.719And why am I saying one point to the other?
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00:03:35.680Um, more than 150 years ago, there's a guy called Gustave Freitag.
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00:03:38.319He has something called the universal story structure.
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00:03:46.800So we start off with an exposition or an introduction where the characters and the main uh aspect of the story is being introduced.
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00:03:51.439In that case, it could be an introduction, it could be the beginning of a case, it could be the beginning of a problem.
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00:03:55.520And then we have a rising action where the tension starts to build.
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00:04:00.400Here I am giving people probably uh an intro to foundational knowledge.
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00:04:09.759I'm building up to why do we need to solve that specific problem, the needs, the pressures, the constraints, anything that is related to the training or the learning that we're building up.
00:04:09.919 -->
00:04:20.560And then a climax where the main aspect that would relate to the learning objective is presented, and I know how to solve it and I know how to uh uh work with it.
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00:04:22.399Then a following action.
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00:04:31.120I reinforce, I give further data, I make sure that they can do this in a variety of ways or a diversity of different forms of application.
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00:04:43.920And at the end, as Gustave says, du nou or um a closure where everything is set and we're done, training is over, or e-learning is over, video is over, and I know what I need to know.
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00:04:44.480That's it.
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00:04:47.199That's that's basically the overarching concept of things.
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00:04:49.360Well, thanks for being on the show then.
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00:04:50.079We're done, right?
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00:04:51.680No, I just just just kidding.
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00:04:56.319Uh no, I actually I I I I've not heard this approach before.
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00:04:58.639I like I'm familiar with the the pattern, right?
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00:05:03.920Um, but when I think about it, typically I think about stories, and we there's lots of story examples out there.
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00:05:07.600You can read novels, you can read classic stories, whatever it might be.
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00:05:14.160Um, but I I love that you're breaking down that kind of learning journey, following that path.
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00:05:23.600Um do you think from a perspective of like as an instructional designer, as a creator, um, my guess is most people are not doing that, right?
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00:05:25.199They're not thinking about it that way.
00:05:25.439 -->
00:05:35.279But what do you think the benefit of following that pattern for learning is from, say, if you're a newer designer, or maybe you're just trying to uh refresh your design process?
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00:05:37.839What's what are the benefits you get out of that?
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00:05:45.920Well, the benefit is that I know the overarching structure, but that structure is not really set in stone, it's not holy.
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00:05:50.959For example, you could start with the climax, you could end with the climax.
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00:05:53.839It really depends on how you're going to be stitching things.
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00:05:58.079For example, we have different types that we could work with or utilize.
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00:06:02.319For instance, one of the ones that I could talk about is something called defeating the evil.
00:06:02.480 -->
00:06:04.560So I have an evil that I want to defeat.
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00:06:11.439That evil could be the KPI that I want to achieve, it could be that annoying manager I want to deal with.
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00:06:15.360So here, overcoming evil is one of the classic story arcs.
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00:06:20.800Even though we can usually predict the ending, it usually involves a lot of drama along the way.
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00:06:38.000The drama here, it could be presenting challenges, it could be presenting issues to the learners to deal with, a branching scenario, even a sort, uh hotspots where they could be interacting with different challenges, um, sorry, not challenges, obstacles related to how to achieve something.
00:06:38.319 -->
00:06:51.279So based on this, I should be putting into consideration what is the company's biggest challenge, or who's the company's arch nemesis, or we use this as something to achieve a target of sort.
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00:06:58.240We use this narrative to train learners on what threats they're facing and how to how to face it or how to overcome it.
00:06:58.399 -->
00:07:00.800There's also another one called Rags to Riches.
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00:07:13.600I love rags to riches, where someone that knows nothing, starting off, we could do this in a compliance training, we can do this in a video where I'm taking people through the holes of the company.
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00:07:42.720And I did this by the way, I don't mean to promote, but we did this using Camtasia at one point, where we've mounted a GoPro, we let them get introduced into the company, meet different people, and at the end, we took the story where people could see how that employee leveled up in understanding, and the more they understand, they're getting better at getting acquainted with the rest of the employees, knowing how to ask certain questions, dealing with them.
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00:07:43.759It was a series.
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00:07:47.839So it was all using a GoPro edited on Camtasia, and we did it.
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00:07:50.240So, yeah, a little bit of promotion going on here.
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00:07:56.079But anywho, here the protagonist has a humble beginning, they fight their way to the top.
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00:07:58.639This is a life journey paved with struggles.
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00:08:05.680So, here there's a lot of rising actions and a lot of climaxes that we need to overcome as we go.
00:08:05.759 -->
00:08:10.480It's not single climax, but different climaxes leading to our dunement or our closure.
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00:08:21.680So it's a simple narrative, could be used to describe a character who started off from nothing, but through tenacity and thirst for knowledge, ended up rising all the way to the top.
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00:08:23.360That's that's another way to put it.
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00:08:25.360Another one could be the quest.
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00:08:29.439I love quests that could be a big one when we're doing gamification.
00:08:29.680 -->
00:08:43.919So you're doing kind of like a DD, you're collecting, you're gaining knowledge, you're gaining applications of different formats, and then you end up with a big case, or you end up with a you struggle.
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00:08:56.159And that struggle is the a chunk in the learning module that would lead you to understand and know what to do with the next challenge or the next portion that would need your efforts to it.
00:08:56.320 -->
00:09:08.639So you're collecting on the way, it's a journey, and we could be for doing this in in uh in a visual uh in a visual way, where putting up like props on uh on on the side of the story.
00:09:08.799 -->
00:09:11.279Now you have this, now you have this, now you have this.
00:09:11.440 -->
00:09:17.279And as you go, all of the collections are reinforcements to you to know what you have been working with.
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00:09:17.840Okay.
00:09:18.320 -->
00:09:24.399Um, this quest is highly suitable to use when you're completing a learning module.
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00:09:33.360And from someone that is going from novice to expert, as they experience the thrill of how to well overcome all of the issues in the content itself.
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00:09:40.720The last one that I'm going to be talking about is um no, it's the the rebirth.
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00:09:41.840I love the rebirth.
00:09:42.000 -->
00:09:58.159The rebirth is where you use the main character or the main issue as someone that did something extremely awful, like a bad manager, and how that manager is going into their road of redemption.
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00:10:09.919They used to do a lot of wrong um behaviors, they used to take a lot of wrong decisions, and now how we can correct each and every one of those as we go forward.
00:10:10.080 -->
00:10:22.720We're still using Gustav Freitag, but we're mixing and matching between the rising, the falling, the rising, the falling, the different types of climaxes, huge climaxes, small climaxes, till we end up with a closure.
00:10:22.879 -->
00:10:25.840So those are the types, in a way or another.
00:10:26.159 -->
00:10:28.559So you you give me, it's a lot of food for thought here.
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00:10:36.320And I and I love and love that you've been able to roll these out and present them in such a way that I I think it I can see how these could be applicable.
00:10:36.559 -->
00:10:44.720I imagine, though, that there's organizations who, you know, we know in learning development, there's always a backlog, there's always more things to do.
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00:10:52.639The time pressure to get things done is, you know, it's for considering it's sometimes it's critical nature, it's got to be done really quick.
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00:10:57.200Sometimes it's like, man, uh, yeah, get it done, but like it does it really have to be done tomorrow.
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00:11:22.559Um, but I imagine there's organizations who would there's someone out there saying, I I love these, I would love to use these, but it feels like the lift to get from the idea of like taking one of those concepts, turning it into something actionable, and then getting my company to buy in to letting me tell the redemption story of a manager feels like it might be hard.
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00:11:41.039Um, and it is like value, there's value there, but like what would you say to that person who's like, I man, Mo, I really want to this would be cool, but I just don't think it's gonna either it's not gonna work for my company, it's not gonna lurk for my audience, uh, you know, and I just don't know if I can put invested time in it.
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00:11:44.240Well, there are a couple of things that I should be considering here.
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00:11:50.240Number one, are you here looking for um a knowledge dump?
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00:11:52.879So what are you what are you asking for?
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00:11:59.440You want me to to get people to answer a couple of quizzes and to answer things that they memorize?
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00:12:05.840Okay, so you want only a knowledge transfer, which is not really training, but I mean it's a it's a minor form of application.
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00:12:24.480I'm gonna tell you that number one, stories will be able to let people anchor an experience, and every time they're trying to do an I'm sorry, to carry out an answer, they are relating back to the experience that they went through because people do not remember knowledge, they remember those parts of the story.
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00:12:41.600Number two, when I'm doing this, I need to know the constraints in the company, the pressures in the company, the norms of the company, and all of the specific type of um processes, the invisible rule book that you wouldn't tell me.
00:12:41.759 -->
00:12:47.759I would want to get to people to immerse them in something that they can relate to.
00:12:48.080 -->
00:12:57.200If I cannot do that, I could give them something that could look good, look nice, but I cannot guarantee that they will be able to use it on the job.
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00:13:12.720I'm not going to be using people by name, I'm not going to be using characters that are a replica of real life, but I'm going to be showcasing something that once the employee is in it, like I can see myself, the employee, not the bad manager.
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00:13:14.399The employee they can see themselves.
00:13:14.559 -->
00:13:16.639Oh, okay, I can I can use this.
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00:13:18.960That kind of interaction, I can copy-paste it.
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00:13:25.440If this happened, the first part, which is anchoring the experience, can actually come and be manifested.
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00:13:26.480It can happen.
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00:13:34.879Last but not least, the time it would take me to do this in a training will be a lot.
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00:13:39.120And I mean physical training or asynchronous training of sort.
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00:13:53.360It will be a lot, but I might not be able to guarantee the same experience as someone that can go and enjoy a video or a visual and take decisions and actions as they go into that video.
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00:13:56.799They're going into their choose their own adventure.
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00:14:02.480They're going into their own choose their own adventure, a rebirth, uh, a rackster riches.
00:14:02.639 -->
00:14:04.159Oh, I am excited.
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00:14:06.559My curiosity is actually being built.
00:14:06.799 -->
00:14:14.320And to be completely honest, the cost of doing something like this compared to a training program is a little bit less.
00:14:14.639 -->
00:14:20.480Because a training program, I would need to get people off the floor, off the work, off something to attend.
00:14:20.960 -->
00:14:28.240And what I'm gonna get evaluations that will be passing 85-90%, but that's not gonna guarantee something.
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00:14:39.679But even if the completion rate of the story is not huge, all of those that went through it would definitely remember it and would definitely start to talk about it in the hallways, and that's what I'm looking for.
00:14:39.840 -->
00:14:45.759I'm looking for that caucus rather than I'm looking for the completion rate to be supreme.
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00:15:02.559I want them to chat amongst themselves because those chats will be part of the uh the chit chat that is happening between their colleagues and what they're going to be uh trying to relate to the next time a problem happens or the next time an issue arises.
00:15:03.440 -->
00:15:17.039Well, I, you know, I'm thinking as you're speaking about these things, I'm just kind of thinking in my head about about stories that are, you know, like, and not maybe from a learning perspective, but like yeah, there is a shared kind of live, it's not quite a lived experience, but it's a shared experience.
00:15:17.120 -->
00:15:22.480When if you've read a book, a story, and I've read a book and a story, like, and then we come together and we talk about that, right?
00:15:22.559 -->
00:15:26.960Like there's this this shared thing, or as uh as a role-playing game, right?
00:15:27.039 -->
00:15:29.120Like I've I've played Dungeons and Dragons.
00:15:29.200 -->
00:15:31.200I think I've been pretty clear on this show that about that.
00:15:31.360 -->
00:15:36.960But like uh when I have those experiences, even though it's it's it's story, right?
00:15:37.039 -->
00:15:49.200We're we're improving the story together, um, we do have those moments of connection that I think go beyond just that you learned a fact or an item or you could click on the right thing.
00:15:49.360 -->
00:15:51.039So I do, I do love that.
00:15:51.360 -->
00:15:57.279Um I imagine though, as people start to think about, okay, I could apply story here and there.
00:15:57.919 -->
00:16:00.080Do I imagine it goes one or two ways?
00:16:00.159 -->
00:16:27.279They either try to go so far into story that it's like so comp becomes so complicated, or maybe they don't put I could see where you like, oh gosh, you just need to push a little bit further because I've seen some half-hearted attempts at stories in my career that's like, yeah, there's a story there, but it's not a good story, it's not interesting, it's like even if it is real-ish characters, it just like feels it falls flat because it feels fake.
00:16:27.600 -->
00:16:34.559How how do you address those kind of that kind of spectrum of like getting people to get to the the happy middle place?
00:16:36.080 -->
00:16:41.519Number one, it goes back all the way to the boring part, which is learning analysis.
00:16:41.600 -->
00:16:50.720And in learning analysis, I always ask, offer me a day in a life, picture me what's happening there, and I want to know quotes, I want to know words.
00:16:50.879 -->
00:16:52.639For example, we're not in Kansas anymore.
00:16:52.799 -->
00:16:55.600You would relate to it right away, okay?
00:16:56.000 -->
00:16:58.799Me and you, we've been to the to the wizard of oz, okay.
00:16:58.879 -->
00:17:11.200We we we watch we watch this together, and I I want those words that can can can can um trigger, nudge people to relate, give me that form of relevance.
00:17:11.279 -->
00:17:11.920That's number one.
00:17:12.000 -->
00:17:14.160Number two, we're learning designers.
00:17:14.319 -->
00:17:22.079So, designers, we work on how we can be as minimalist as possible rather than dumb.
00:17:22.240 -->
00:17:30.240Learning design is about how to skim and take af uh take take take off all of the excess, not try to put much.
00:17:30.319 -->
00:17:38.880If you're doing the opposite, well, you need to go back to school, but anyway, uh, yeah, we we need to be looking at this from a minimalist perspective first.
00:17:38.960 -->
00:17:41.519So when we're doing minimalist, hold on.
00:17:41.759 -->
00:17:48.400That part of the story that we're mentioning, are we doing it for the show or actually taking it from a day in a life?
00:17:48.559 -->
00:18:00.960And if it's a day in a life, is the jargon that I'm using, the terminologies that I'm using, the data that I'm using, are they essential, or it's going to be creating a cognitive load?
00:18:01.200 -->
00:18:08.240I storeboard based on this, I create that factor, and then I go back to that SME that told me about a day in life.
00:18:08.400 -->
00:18:09.680Does this make sense?
00:18:09.920 -->
00:18:11.440Should I add more data?
00:18:11.680 -->
00:18:13.359Should I add more events?
00:18:13.599 -->
00:18:25.279Or this is something that can be reasonably relatable to what's happening in your organization or what's happening with you, even if it's a fictitious story, even if it's a story about a bunch of dragons.
00:18:25.519 -->
00:18:30.079Is this the kind of dragon that you would find floating around in the company?
00:18:30.240 -->
00:18:32.319Okay, I I want a replica of this.
00:18:32.480 -->
00:18:40.799And at the end, I don't want to be giving people during the story utopian choices or options to choose from.
00:18:40.960 -->
00:18:44.880I want to take something out of their life where they could do a trade-off.
00:18:45.039 -->
00:18:55.039If you do this, you're getting consequences, but also you're safe because your company encourages speed over, well, compliance.
00:18:55.440 -->
00:18:59.279So here you're being speedy, but you're going through those consequences.
00:18:59.359 -->
00:19:02.000You're compliant, but you're going to be losing that.
00:19:02.160 -->
00:19:05.039I want to do this, so now it's not a story.
00:19:05.279 -->
00:19:07.359Now it's actually almost a game.
00:19:07.680 -->
00:19:15.279As if we're going through a game where I'm making trade-offs and I'm dealing with everything that is getting presented to me.
00:19:15.440 -->
00:19:22.400Those are the experiences that I want to create and put in the form of a video or even an interactive e-learning.
00:19:23.359 -->
00:19:27.920Yeah, I I love that idea that uh you just mentioned about trade-offs, right?
00:19:28.000 -->
00:19:35.920That like real life is messy, real life is challenging, real life rarely gives you the optimal opportunities.
00:19:36.079 -->
00:19:39.279And and I think that's that's realistic and that's important for training, right?
00:19:39.359 -->
00:19:55.759Because how how do you start to learn to deal with these harder choices if everything is like black and white, this is right, this is wrong, and you never have to deal with the, like you said, speed versus compliance is a great example because you know, if you've if you've dealt with those, well, what you're gonna make trade-offs.
00:19:55.839 -->
00:20:00.240Um, you know, even even things and decisions I think about like in the software world, right?
00:20:00.319 -->
00:20:07.839Like uh, and we should always be leaning towards the idea of like, hey, we should be more accessible, our content should be accessible, but people are having to make those trade-offs, right?
00:20:07.920 -->
00:20:13.039If I have to spend X amount of time on this, and then what's the consequence of doing that?
00:20:13.200 -->
00:20:15.440But if I don't do that, what's the consequence as well?
00:20:15.599 -->
00:20:20.559And kind of whether it's financially, morally, whatever it might be.
00:20:21.039 -->
00:20:24.079We've all been through those uh trainings and sales.
00:20:24.160 -->
00:20:30.720I mean, I've created trainings and sales where the answer that I should choose is almost unrealistic.
00:20:30.880 -->
00:20:37.279I mean, or it's written in a way to like it's begging me to click on it because it's the only correct answer.
00:20:37.359 -->
00:20:40.400The other answers, I would never do this.
00:20:40.799 -->
00:20:44.160I would never do something absurdly wrong this way.
00:20:44.319 -->
00:20:56.880But even when we're doing branching scenarios or we're trying to use hotspots on Camtasia so we could choose what to do, I should be putting answers that are well almost all the same.
00:20:57.119 -->
00:21:03.680But there's one trick, one thing that needs me to think to cognitively get it right.
00:21:04.079 -->
00:21:18.400If all answers are seemingly correct, but I should be taking my time to weigh, or the the the the consequences are absolutely unrealistic, or the consequences are yeah, that happens.
00:21:18.640 -->
00:21:22.160I am definitely, definitely immersed into that story.
00:21:22.319 -->
00:21:26.400Otherwise, people will be going through click click after click click click click.
00:21:26.480 -->
00:21:27.039I'm done.
00:21:28.319 -->
00:21:29.519So let me ask you this.
00:21:29.599 -->
00:21:33.359Uh, because you brought up like this idea of like, you know, there's getting people to think.
00:21:33.440 -->
00:21:34.799And I and I think that's really important.
00:21:34.880 -->
00:21:36.160That's that's what learning's about, right?
00:21:36.240 -->
00:21:37.279It's not just about it.
00:21:37.440 -->
00:21:41.279There is a level of knowing, but then we get to higher levels of thinking and whatever.
00:21:41.519 -->
00:21:44.000Um, but um I'm curious for you.
00:21:44.400 -->
00:21:46.079Uh think about a scenario, right?
00:21:46.160 -->
00:21:53.519Like the sales one where maybe you got these four choices and three of them are are not the best choices, but there's one that's better, but they're close.
00:21:53.839 -->
00:21:58.799Should people like it feels like in learning development, sometimes we punish people for wrong answers, right?
00:21:58.960 -->
00:21:59.759Well, you're not gonna pass.
00:22:00.160 -->
00:22:01.200You're gonna have to do whatever.
00:22:01.359 -->
00:22:12.160Uh, but it feels like from what you're saying, is maybe maybe that's like, yeah, it's not the right answer, but how do we help someone gain learning and opportunity from wrong answers?
00:22:12.240 -->
00:22:16.880But it feels like we're like, whatever you do, don't choose the wrong answer.
00:22:17.119 -->
00:22:19.200Does that does that resonate with you?
00:22:19.680 -->
00:22:36.000If I'm punishing, yeah, it is because if I'm punishing someone to do the wrong thing, yet I'm not offering them feedback, I am reinforcing from a learning standpoint to only do the right thing each and every time, then there's no room for mistake.
00:22:36.240 -->
00:22:46.960It's it's even on a subliminal level, you're giving them the order, you're nudging them towards that, you're offering that false type of compliance.
00:22:47.200 -->
00:22:59.759So I want you to comply by doing the right thing, but I want you to also do a choice that could be so tempting, it has something wrong in it, and discover why it's wrong.
00:22:59.920 -->
00:23:08.160I don't like to do in my branches, I don't like to do in any assessment of sort to condemn people that they've done something wrong.
00:23:08.480 -->
00:23:16.480I always have to give a rapid form of feedback, whether visual or written, and offer them a hint.
00:23:16.640 -->
00:23:18.640I'm not going to spoon feed them the right answer.
00:23:18.720 -->
00:23:21.359I'm just going to tell them, okay, this is what you did.
00:23:21.680 -->
00:23:23.200That might be the consequence.
00:23:23.359 -->
00:23:25.359You still have a choice to go back at it again.
00:23:25.440 -->
00:23:32.480If it's mediocre, I'll give them sometimes since if it's mediocre, I'll give them the feedback and let them move forward.
00:23:32.640 -->
00:23:40.240If it's wrong, like absurdly wrong, then I'm going to give them the feedback and ask them, okay, take another go, try again.
00:23:40.559 -->
00:23:48.160This is offering them more chance, more autonomy to build the learning curve.
00:23:48.400 -->
00:23:55.519Because from a constructivist standpoint, a simulation, an accommodation of learning happens only through failure.
00:23:55.680 -->
00:24:06.079But if I'm going to fail and offering room for risks in a learning program, I need to give them room to bounce back and lift off from that failure.
00:24:06.240 -->
00:24:11.279If you're only going to be condemning them, then you're just pushing them to do unethical behavior.
00:24:11.440 -->
00:24:13.039Like, I'm going to call up my friend.
00:24:13.200 -->
00:24:16.160What are all those answers that are required?
00:24:16.400 -->
00:24:18.160Because, well, it's going to affect my target.
00:24:18.240 -->
00:24:20.880It's going to affect my KPI, and they need the completion rate.
00:24:21.039 -->
00:24:22.400Oh, they need me to finish this.
00:24:22.559 -->
00:24:36.640But if it's something that I'm interacting with and it's giving me room to, well, work it out, I'm just going to continue on on my own because it's becoming a more plausible challenge, or I dare to say, a more fun challenge.
00:24:36.799 -->
00:24:38.160You know how much I hate that word.
00:24:38.240 -->
00:24:44.000But it's a more well fun as an achievement kind of fun challenge to interact with.
00:24:44.319 -->
00:24:44.640Yeah.
00:24:44.799 -->
00:24:53.359Well, I think about uh, you know, what story would be would be better if the the hero of the story was always perfect and never made mistakes, right?
00:24:53.599 -->
00:24:54.079None.
00:24:54.240 -->
00:24:56.640None of them would be better because we we like C.
00:24:57.039 -->
00:25:00.400I mean if I may say something about this.
00:25:00.559 -->
00:25:06.400One of the things that I do explain in the storytelling that why do people love Batman?
00:25:06.640 -->
00:25:08.160Batman is relatable.
00:25:08.400 -->
00:25:10.640The only difference is that he has more money, okay?
00:25:10.720 -->
00:25:14.079But Batman is really anyone can be Batman, anyone can be Vishilandy.
00:25:14.160 -->
00:25:23.920And another thing, Superman, when the comics was actually presented, it was good and then it failed miserably by TC.
00:25:24.079 -->
00:25:24.640Why?
00:25:24.960 -->
00:25:29.359Because Superman was an Isaiah, Superman was godlike, he was omni.
00:25:29.680 -->
00:25:32.799So they had to introduce later kryptonite.
00:25:33.200 -->
00:25:35.759If there's no kryptonite, there's no Superman.
00:25:35.839 -->
00:25:37.119And that's the thing.
00:25:37.519 -->
00:25:43.039If it's utopian, people get bored because, well, there's no curiosity.
00:25:43.200 -->
00:25:45.920It's expected what's gonna happen eventually.
00:25:46.240 -->
00:25:48.400Yeah, yeah, you you know the answer, right?
00:25:48.480 -->
00:25:49.039They win.
00:25:49.119 -->
00:25:50.480And that's like, okay, great.
00:25:50.559 -->
00:25:58.799And we do we still want Batman to win, but the possibility has to be there that Batman doesn't win or Batman does eventually die.
00:25:58.960 -->
00:26:02.000And that's you know, whole other thing going back to comic books and stories.
00:26:02.240 -->
00:26:11.519Mo, this has been look, I man, I I always I'm the luckiest guy in the industry because I get to learn at the feet of so many wonderful people like yourself.
00:26:11.680 -->
00:26:13.359This has been an awesome conversation.
00:26:13.599 -->
00:26:15.759I've enjoyed it uh so much.
00:26:15.920 -->
00:26:17.200Um, I want to give you a chance.
00:26:19.279 -->
00:26:20.160Well, thank you.
00:26:22.079 -->
00:26:25.599I've been learning from you for years, by the way, just for you to know.
00:26:25.920 -->
00:26:26.880Well, well, thank you.
00:26:26.960 -->
00:26:28.160I I I appreciate that.
00:26:28.240 -->
00:26:31.039But I want others to be able to learn from you or connect with you.
00:26:31.119 -->
00:26:34.720How could people what's the best way for people to reach out or connect with you?
00:26:35.440 -->
00:26:36.400Um, pretty simple.
00:26:36.559 -->
00:26:38.240Just reach out to me on LinkedIn.
00:26:38.480 -->
00:26:46.559And if there's something business that's gonna benefit the company and the people that work here, you can reach out to me at uh our company's website.
00:26:46.640 -->
00:26:48.720That's basically the catalyst experience.
00:26:49.200 -->
00:26:49.680Perfect.
00:26:49.839 -->
00:26:50.480I love it.
00:26:50.640 -->
00:26:56.559Uh, everyone should go reach out to you, Mo, and work with you because obviously you know what you're talking about, especially comes to story.
00:26:56.640 -->
00:26:57.680Uh gets me pumped.
00:26:57.759 -->
00:27:03.039I, you know, think about okay, what's the story that I get to how can I weave this into my next project?
00:27:03.200 -->
00:27:07.759But what we like to do at the end of every show, uh, Mo is we ask our guests for their final take.
00:27:07.839 -->
00:27:10.640So, Mo Ash, what is your final take?
00:27:11.920 -->
00:27:19.519Well, whenever you're thinking about a story, a learning or something that is going to be benefiting people, try always to frame the learning problem.
00:27:19.680 -->
00:27:25.680So, framing the learning problem is trying to understand the system that you're working with, not trying to do something that would replace the system.
00:27:26.000 -->
00:27:31.200System is the organization, the norms, the constraints, the forms of feedback, the liabilities, the pressures.
00:27:31.359 -->
00:27:35.119Try to simulate something that is close to it so people can interact with it.
00:27:35.279 -->
00:27:43.119If something gets completely alienated from reality, they're not going to be able to, well, feel that they're part of it.
00:27:43.200 -->
00:27:47.680And since they're not part of it, well, they're not going to have any ownership towards it.
00:27:47.759 -->
00:27:53.680So the more you frame towards a system, not replace it, you will get your endeavors cleared out.
00:27:53.920 -->
00:27:55.279Well, feasibly.
00:27:56.319 -->
00:27:56.880Perfect.
00:27:57.039 -->
00:27:57.440Love it.
00:27:57.519 -->
00:27:58.079Thanks, Mo.
00:27:58.240 -->
00:28:00.240I appreciate you joining me in the visual lounge.
00:28:01.359 -->
00:28:01.759Thank you.
00:28:01.920 -->
00:28:04.559Appreciate you, and thank you again for having me here.
