WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 -->
00:00:05.040Passage of the stable point legislation drafted by the Senate, dubbed the Genie Senate.
00:00:05.040 -->
00:00:08.240Because analysts say a wave of competition can complicate things.
00:00:18.160 -->
00:00:21.519We have Paul from Morpho, co-founder and CEO Morpho.
00:00:21.519 -->
00:00:23.280Paul, welcome to the show.
00:00:23.280 -->
00:00:24.960Hey, thanks for having me.
00:00:24.960 -->
00:00:28.399Yeah, thank you for um taking the time.
00:00:28.399 -->
00:00:29.839I know you're very busy.
00:00:29.839 -->
00:00:33.920You guys have been crushing it recently with a massive, massive round.
00:00:33.920 -->
00:00:39.679We'll get to that in a second, but we'd love to go a little bit back to your childhood.
00:00:39.679 -->
00:00:42.159Tell us more, like where are you calling from?
00:00:42.159 -->
00:00:42.960Where are you from?
00:00:42.960 -->
00:00:44.079Where did you grow up?
00:00:44.079 -->
00:00:47.200Like anything that you're willing to share with our audience.
00:00:47.759 -->
00:00:48.079Sure.
00:00:48.079 -->
00:00:49.759So I'm currently in Paris.
00:00:49.759 -->
00:00:51.520I live in between New York and Paris.
00:00:51.520 -->
00:00:53.600I do like half-half approximately.
00:00:53.600 -->
00:00:55.840I'm French originally.
00:00:55.840 -->
00:00:57.359I come from Normandy.
00:00:57.359 -->
00:00:59.520And you know, my story is pretty short.
00:00:59.520 -->
00:01:00.560I'm like 25.
00:01:00.560 -->
00:01:03.119The only thing I've done in my life is studying in Morpho.
00:01:03.119 -->
00:01:11.599So first part was like studying, you know, in Normandy, and then in Paris, studied like, you know, pirated and distributed systems.
00:01:11.599 -->
00:01:14.319That was basically my way into blockchains, right?
00:01:14.319 -->
00:01:17.439And distributed computing and consensus algorithms.
00:01:17.439 -->
00:01:25.439So I studied that for a few years and and and yeah, and in the middle of my my studies, like ended up funding Morpho.
00:01:25.439 -->
00:01:31.439In my second year at university, got funded, you know, 20 million, and and this is how it all started.
00:01:31.439 -->
00:01:37.599But already know it was like a pretty you know standard like childhood and and start.
00:01:37.599 -->
00:01:41.280Like um spent a lot of time doing two things.
00:01:41.280 -->
00:01:48.079Um starting trying to start businesses and studying computer science and blockchains in general.
00:01:48.319 -->
00:01:50.239So we're doing pretty much the same time.
00:01:50.239 -->
00:01:56.159So it's a startup before Morpho, or like your thought about bus like starting a business.
00:01:56.159 -->
00:01:58.480How did you get to this entrepreneurial journey?
00:01:58.799 -->
00:02:08.960So it's funny because you know people usually assume this is my first venture because you know I started Morph at like 20, and and so they're like, hey, that that must be the first thing, right?
00:02:08.960 -->
00:02:16.080But what usually they don't know is that I actually started like five or six years before that, uh trying a lot of different things, right?
00:02:16.080 -->
00:02:32.159And so I tried things ranging from like, you know, different business models for real estate platforms, or at some point I was doing like caritative auction for streamers to be able to like sell and auction like experiences with them.
00:02:32.159 -->
00:02:40.800Um I've done stuff around IP, I've done stuff around education, and like I I've really tried a lot of different things throughout many years.
00:02:40.800 -->
00:02:46.479Some were incubated, some failed after like six, seven months of not finding product market fit.
00:02:46.479 -->
00:02:59.120Um and and you know, each each of those came up with like very strong learnings and you know helped me like build stronger mental models about like what building a business actually means and what are the you know things you should do, should not do.
00:02:59.120 -->
00:03:06.400And one of the things I've learned was uh building an unfair advantage, like something that you have that others don't.
00:03:06.400 -->
00:03:09.120Um and so that was one.
00:03:09.120 -->
00:03:17.280And the second one was like finding a market and uh foundational technology that that could, you know, you could get leverage from, right?
00:03:17.280 -->
00:03:25.039And and I was uh as I was learning this, I realized that one good timing for me would be blockchains, right?
00:03:25.039 -->
00:03:31.360Um and so I decided back then I should become the most knowledgeable person, you know, in Paris about blockchains.
00:03:31.360 -->
00:03:41.919And and this is how it all started, is like as I was building, like trying those businesses, I started taking every single possible class about blockchain and computer science you could ever think of.
00:03:41.919 -->
00:03:52.719So I had like probably eight or nine different ones in parallel that I was like attending, um purely like without even like being in the given university.
00:03:52.719 -->
00:03:59.520Like I would just like email like the teacher and say, hey, like, you know, or the professor and say, Hey, like I'd love to join your course.
00:03:59.520 -->
00:04:01.520Like, can you can I just like join?
00:04:01.520 -->
00:04:14.000Um and yeah, and and and this is how I sort of kickstart two things is having a deep understanding about blockchains, which which by the way, I'm still learning a ton about this, like this technology is so mystical.
00:04:14.000 -->
00:04:24.480Like every every year I found like new mental models about new ways of clarifying my understanding of what this technology even is and what it means and for for its usability.
00:04:24.480 -->
00:04:25.279So that was one.
00:04:25.279 -->
00:04:33.040And the second thing was actually building a network of like you know, academics, smart people that were thinking about those topics, right?
00:04:33.040 -->
00:04:38.240And one day I decided to bring the two together and say, hey, you know, what about doing entrepreneurship?
00:04:38.240 -->
00:04:42.160But with this knowledge that I've been building over like the few years.
00:04:42.480 -->
00:04:49.120So what was the first day that you started poking around blockchain until like you started Morpho?
00:04:49.120 -->
00:04:51.439Like how long this period took?
00:04:52.240 -->
00:04:54.079Probably three, three years.
00:04:54.079 -->
00:04:59.040Um so I I so I joined university.
00:04:59.040 -->
00:05:04.079So in France, you you before joining university, you do two years in a preparatory school.
00:05:04.079 -->
00:05:08.959So I did this between my 16 and 18 years old.
00:05:08.959 -->
00:05:12.959Um and I started thinking about blockchain in my second year.
00:05:12.959 -->
00:05:16.079So around 17 is is when I started.
00:05:16.079 -->
00:05:22.480Um and so between 17 and 20, this is where I spent a lot of time, like, you know, uh learning computer systems.
00:05:22.720 -->
00:05:25.360You're not a Gen Zier, you don't have instant gratification.
00:05:25.360 -->
00:05:28.399It took you three years to hard work to study.
00:05:29.040 -->
00:05:38.399Yeah, and you know, I I I I like to go deep on things and like build a very foundational understanding.
00:05:38.399 -->
00:05:41.839And you know, it's just like it's especially utility around blockchain.
00:05:41.839 -->
00:05:43.519Like, why why do you need blockchain?
00:05:43.519 -->
00:05:46.639Like blockchains are super cool, but like what do they bring to the world?
00:05:46.639 -->
00:05:51.759Like, what fundamental utility does this bring that is beyond speculation, you know?
00:05:51.759 -->
00:05:58.000Um and and took me a lot of time, to be frank, to understand.
00:05:58.000 -->
00:06:03.120Uh like and and and again, I'm still learning like every day, like what this means.
00:06:03.120 -->
00:06:08.319But um, and I think you know, looking back, that was probably the most valuable journey.
00:06:08.319 -->
00:06:18.639Like doing really putting in the efforts of like questioning like the utility uh for so many years uh is really like made a shaped a lot of the vision for for Morpho.
00:06:18.639 -->
00:06:31.759Um and and funnily enough, like initially I the reason I did not start a project uh in in blockchain earlier is is I did not like finance at the time.
00:06:31.759 -->
00:06:36.240I was like, hey, like finance is like it's not for me.
00:06:36.240 -->
00:06:37.680Yeah, it's not for me.
00:06:37.680 -->
00:06:44.720Like you know, I I wanted to, you know, I wanted to have a maximum impact for the world and and create value for everybody.
00:06:44.720 -->
00:06:48.000And and finance felt like the only industry where you don't create value.
00:06:48.000 -->
00:06:50.000You just move value around, right?
00:06:50.000 -->
00:06:52.079And and yet you take a cut, right?
00:06:52.079 -->
00:06:56.319And and you're like, damn, like that seems extractive, right?
00:06:56.319 -->
00:07:03.279And and actually, you know, so for and then I realized that actually the the value prop is is connecting, right?
00:07:03.279 -->
00:07:10.480It's actually about like you know, bringing capital, you know, in space and time across space-time and risk and like where where it's needed the most.
00:07:10.480 -->
00:07:13.279And this in itself is an act of value creation.
00:07:13.279 -->
00:07:18.480Um and and what I realized is that you know finance is not evil at all.
00:07:18.480 -->
00:07:22.720It's actually extremely positive and and and like the bedrock of our civilization.
00:07:22.720 -->
00:07:32.240But but the current infrastructure uh is what introduces the friction and and and and that basically makes it extractive, right?
00:07:32.240 -->
00:07:44.959And so so when I put two and two together and realized that that blockchain was the opportunity to push all that value from the center of the infrastructure to the edges of the network, you know, in the end consumer.
00:07:44.959 -->
00:07:48.879This was really this literally the same day I realized that I started working on Morph.
00:07:48.879 -->
00:07:51.199I was like, oh damn, I actually need to work in DeFi.
00:07:51.199 -->
00:07:52.879Like this is a necessity.
00:07:52.879 -->
00:08:02.399Like I have to work in finance, I have to like disrupt that that that industry that's that could do immense good in general, uh, if I were to work on this.
00:08:02.399 -->
00:08:04.240So that was the story, basically.
00:08:04.240 -->
00:08:05.439And this is how I started.
00:08:05.439 -->
00:08:09.759And the same day I was like, okay, DeFi, what's the most interesting to do in finance?
00:08:09.759 -->
00:08:15.120Financing, for sure, is like, you know, the the and so and this is why I started working on the Morphone.
00:08:15.519 -->
00:08:19.839And then this is like what year, 2022, did you start it?
00:08:19.839 -->
00:08:22.079I started in 2021.
00:08:22.079 -->
00:08:23.439We write it in 2022.
00:08:23.439 -->
00:08:25.759What was the first half or second half?
00:08:25.839 -->
00:08:26.879Because it matters.
00:08:34.559 -->
00:08:36.559Yeah, like it crashed after.
00:08:36.559 -->
00:08:37.519Yeah.
00:08:37.519 -->
00:08:37.919Okay.
00:08:37.919 -->
00:08:42.240So you started that like you were like second year in university.
00:08:42.240 -->
00:08:47.919You said like, I want to start Morpho, and then you got 20 million dollars, maybe a year after that.
00:08:47.919 -->
00:08:50.320And then you what what happened to your studies?
00:08:50.320 -->
00:08:51.519You just drop out?
00:08:51.519 -->
00:08:53.039I did not actually.
00:08:53.200 -->
00:08:56.080Well, I actually never told investors at the time I was studying.
00:08:56.080 -->
00:08:58.320You want to get your bachelor at least.
00:08:58.320 -->
00:08:58.639Yeah.
00:08:58.639 -->
00:09:05.039And you know, it's like it's maybe a very stupid French thing, like I you have to get your PhD at least.
00:09:05.039 -->
00:09:07.840Yeah, I guess it was like it was probably a bit like this.
00:09:07.840 -->
00:09:10.399You know, looking back, that was stupid.
00:09:10.399 -->
00:09:13.519Uh I but I just loved learning at the same time.
00:09:13.519 -->
00:09:16.159I I I just wanted to finish.
00:09:16.159 -->
00:09:23.039And but but but so we had all this money, and and but we we still fin went all the way.
00:09:23.039 -->
00:09:26.399Um and and my co-founders were also studying, by the way.
00:09:26.399 -->
00:09:29.039Uh we were all at like at an university.
00:09:29.039 -->
00:09:43.519And and and you know, like what's funny is that when we started raising, like I could tell a big contrast between European funds and and American funds and how they approach the fact that we were young.
00:09:43.519 -->
00:09:46.639Like, one would be like, hey, just come back two years.
00:09:46.639 -->
00:09:48.639Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:09:48.639 -->
00:09:51.120Whereas the other one had the opposite effect, right?
00:09:51.120 -->
00:09:54.000It was like, oh Dave, you're like still so young, let's go.
00:09:54.000 -->
00:09:57.039Like, you know, that gives you a 2x on your vowel, right?
00:09:57.039 -->
00:09:57.759Yes.
00:09:57.759 -->
00:10:00.639Um so that was fun.
00:10:00.639 -->
00:10:07.039And you know, like European funds have their reasons, but like, yeah, that was a pretty sharp contrast at the time.
00:10:07.039 -->
00:10:13.360Um and any, and so so we finished studies and and we hired a bunch from our university.
00:10:13.360 -->
00:10:17.679So more for initially, like the average age was like 21 out of like 10 people.
00:10:17.679 -->
00:10:22.559Um and and and that was fun.
00:10:22.559 -->
00:10:24.879That was a very fun and chaotic time.
00:10:25.120 -->
00:10:27.600Yeah, we were just building and hacking around.
00:10:27.759 -->
00:10:28.639Yeah, I get it.
00:10:28.639 -->
00:10:37.440Yeah, we just like I remember that the first like summer we sort of rented a house like for five weeks straight, and we just put everybody in there.
00:10:37.440 -->
00:10:38.320That was your gross.
00:10:38.320 -->
00:10:39.200Yeah.
00:10:39.200 -->
00:10:43.360No, that was like uh an Airbnb we had rented in like the middle of nowhere.
00:10:43.360 -->
00:10:46.720And during like five weeks straight, we would just work 24-7.
00:10:46.720 -->
00:10:50.159And there was like that was just like another time.
00:10:50.159 -->
00:10:53.279It was pretty crazy and and and awesome, to be frank.
00:10:53.279 -->
00:10:53.759But yeah.
00:10:53.759 -->
00:10:58.799Now we're much more borrowing, we're like 80 people, people have commitments, personal commitments.
00:10:59.039 -->
00:11:04.159So we're like 40-year-olds as well, like more adults in the room, less chaotic.
00:11:04.159 -->
00:11:05.679Yeah, exactly.
00:11:05.679 -->
00:11:07.759Yeah, ready, ready for enterprises.
00:11:07.759 -->
00:11:19.679So then you started Morpho, and then when we met, like I think a couple of years ago in Paris, you st you told me like I said, like, why should an institution trust like a bunch of young kids?
00:11:19.679 -->
00:11:22.240Like you're you're like 21, 23, whatever.
00:11:22.240 -->
00:11:25.440And you said something very interesting that still sticks to me.
00:11:25.440 -->
00:11:29.120So like you're the most audited code on the planet.
00:11:29.120 -->
00:11:36.799Like, tell us about like how you went from this chaotic to like enterprises like Coinbase and all these banks trusting you.
00:11:37.360 -->
00:11:42.720I guess the whole point of our industry is to be such that we should not be trusted.
00:11:42.720 -->
00:11:43.279Right.
00:11:43.279 -->
00:11:50.399It's it's like it should be building infrastructure where the the we can entirely remove ourselves from the picture.
00:11:50.399 -->
00:11:56.320Um and and the process to do that um is is non-trivial, right?
00:11:56.320 -->
00:11:58.799Um so there's a few things.
00:11:58.799 -->
00:12:04.720First, the financial operations that are going to be run is at the end of the day a piece of code, right?
00:12:04.720 -->
00:12:06.879And the piece of code is not that crazy.
00:12:06.879 -->
00:12:08.240It's pretty simple things.
00:12:08.240 -->
00:12:10.559Like, you know, when you do a loan, you have what?
00:12:10.559 -->
00:12:19.600Like the the amount that you want to lend, you have the interest rate, you have the maturity, you know, is there's a liquidation, maybe there's some stuff around the liquidation.
00:12:19.600 -->
00:12:20.879It's pretty simple stuff, right?
00:12:20.879 -->
00:12:28.799Credit is is the the base like obligation contract that two individuals are entering uh is is is pretty simple.
00:12:28.799 -->
00:12:31.759Um and in Morpho, that's 600 lines of code, right?
00:12:31.759 -->
00:12:38.960And so I think the first the first takeaway we had as we were building this is um this does not need to be complex.
00:12:38.960 -->
00:12:50.879And obviously you have a lot of like comp complexity that you can build around and you can layer, but the core of the matching engine, where the core of the you know capital is going to be aggregated, this must be the safest, right?
00:12:50.879 -->
00:13:06.879And so so we came up with this protocol that we took a lot of time to build, like a lot of time and effort, uh to come up with those 600 lines, which are the most like audited per line of code by quite far, I think, um, in in in EVM.
00:13:06.879 -->
00:13:10.080I haven't checked in a long time, so maybe that that that changed.
00:13:10.080 -->
00:13:20.559But um and the most important thing about this was the way we approach the like the coding paradigm is very different than traditional software engineer.
00:13:20.559 -->
00:13:22.480Like Morphous code is immutable, right?
00:13:22.480 -->
00:13:23.360We can't change it.
00:13:23.360 -->
00:13:24.799It's it's there forever.
00:13:24.799 -->
00:13:26.000What does that mean?
00:13:26.000 -->
00:13:29.600It means that if it can be hacked, it will be hacked, right?
00:13:29.600 -->
00:13:35.840And so you have to think because because you're you're gonna integrate that probability over an infinite period of time, right?
00:13:35.840 -->
00:13:44.080So you have to think very differently about software engineering um than you would in like a traditional uh code base.
00:13:44.080 -->
00:13:45.759You have to think about it like it has.
00:13:45.759 -->
00:13:49.759Yeah, there is no continuous patching and okay.
00:13:49.759 -->
00:13:50.480Exactly.
00:13:50.480 -->
00:13:55.200You can't put like you know, just guard rells and iterate and have like alerts and everything.
00:13:55.200 -->
00:14:02.080It's like a piece of code that anyone can use and like control, and people don't want us to be able to control it or change it.
00:14:02.080 -->
00:14:03.279That's the feature, right?
00:14:03.279 -->
00:14:04.960No, it's not about answering.
00:14:04.960 -->
00:14:05.519Exactly.
00:14:05.519 -->
00:14:14.960And so and so the the the the key answer to all of this and that we've I'm glad we figured pretty early on is formal verification.
00:14:14.960 -->
00:14:22.960It's basically come up with a set of properties that you want to be true about the protocol and just mathematically prove them, right?
00:14:22.960 -->
00:14:28.720And so in Morpho, we have a long list of like you know security properties about the code that you don't have to trust us.
00:14:28.720 -->
00:14:30.960Like if you trust math, it's actually true.
00:14:30.960 -->
00:14:32.480It's like literally true.
00:14:32.480 -->
00:14:38.399Um and and and and so that is basically one of the key things that took a take a lot of time to do.
00:14:38.399 -->
00:14:40.240It's surprisingly long and painful.
00:14:40.240 -->
00:14:45.600Even and you can only do this on very simple pieces of code that are not too modular.
00:14:45.600 -->
00:14:57.840Um and and and this is truly what gave the confidence of everybody to think, hey, I just don't even have to trust those guys because I have a proof, like mathematical proof, that it's gonna operate as as as intended.
00:14:57.840 -->
00:14:59.039So that truly helped.
00:14:59.039 -->
00:14:59.919That truly helped.
00:14:59.919 -->
00:15:03.120And then obviously, like Lindy, the test of time and everything.
00:15:03.120 -->
00:15:19.360You know, you have now tens of billions of dollars on the platform that are sitting in this smart contract uh over many years, and and and then people got confidence that this could be um you know uh used at scale, even if you're the you know, trillion dollar size like asset manager.
00:15:19.360 -->
00:15:23.120And as people got to use it more, they they understood and and and any.
00:15:23.120 -->
00:15:34.720And I think now we reach a point where basically anyone is trusting Morphous code as like core prime infra, whether that is the coinbases of the world or just like institutions or or banks to your point, etc.
00:15:34.720 -->
00:15:35.440So yeah.
00:15:35.840 -->
00:15:36.480Makes sense.
00:15:36.480 -->
00:15:41.360And then what happened, like uh one big question for you.
00:15:41.360 -->
00:15:44.559Why not another L1 or L2?
00:15:44.559 -->
00:15:47.919Why you'd settle on protocol and token?
00:15:48.320 -->
00:15:55.759You know, Morpho's goal in general at the high level is to connect ambition with capital, right?
00:15:55.759 -->
00:16:02.480Which is like connecting people that want to do stuff that need financing with people that believe in them and that have capital to invest, right?
00:16:02.480 -->
00:16:05.600And that is agnostic of the underlying technology.
00:16:05.600 -->
00:16:15.519Uh our job is to foster this like open credit network where people get to connect and get to match with one with one another.
00:16:15.519 -->
00:16:24.320And and we think the best way to do that uh at the current time is through blockchains, right?
00:16:24.320 -->
00:16:37.600And and because blockchains provide like open infrastructure that fosters like connectivity and neutrality in a way that allows institutions that don't trust each other to actually still connect with one another.
00:16:37.600 -->
00:16:45.200We felt like this was a commodity and was a given that we could leverage uh instead of building our own.
00:16:45.200 -->
00:16:46.480So that's like the first take.
00:16:46.480 -->
00:17:01.840And then there is more of a business take, which is like, hey, we'd rather be friends with every single layer one and every single layer two and partner with them and their distribution, you know, like you know, Robinhood as Robinhood chain, Shripe as tempo, Coinbase as base.
00:17:01.840 -->
00:17:08.799I'd rather be friend with everybody than build my own that is competitive and introduce any conflict of interest.
00:17:08.799 -->
00:17:11.519Like what I'm looking at is building the credit network.
00:17:11.519 -->
00:17:15.839How this credit network is operated is kind of like agnostic to me.
00:17:15.839 -->
00:17:23.839Like I just want to build, like use the base, the best infrastructure to do so that you know fosters the maximum amount of matching between lenders and borrowers.
00:17:24.240 -->
00:17:24.720Makes sense.
00:17:24.720 -->
00:17:29.119And how long did it take for you to go from like this is a good idea?
00:17:29.119 -->
00:17:34.160I want to like you went from like I don't know anything about finance to now you're interested in finance.
00:17:34.160 -->
00:17:41.119How long it took for you to go from like day one to the first dollar coming to the protocol as a lender?
00:17:41.759 -->
00:17:46.319Yeah, I guess to the very first so Morpho had three versions in total.
00:17:46.319 -->
00:17:49.759Uh second version is the most popular currently that is live, etc.
00:17:49.759 -->
00:17:53.920And the third version is about to launch in in a few days, weeks.
00:17:53.920 -->
00:17:59.440Um the first version of Morpho we built in like six to nine months.
00:17:59.440 -->
00:18:02.000Still took a lot of time for a first version.
00:18:02.000 -->
00:18:12.480Um we so so the way we approached it is like basically we looked at like existing you know, lending and borrowing protocols.
00:18:12.480 -->
00:18:17.839And I just went on-chain and I looked at the depositors, right, and say, hey, who's depositing there?
00:18:17.839 -->
00:18:28.079And then for each of those wallets, I built like a few like tracking algorithms to understand like who they were, trying to de-anonymize them and think like, hey, like do you have an ENS attached to this name?
00:18:28.079 -->
00:18:31.599Like, oh, they interacted with this coin or this address, etc.
00:18:31.599 -->
00:18:35.359And now once I de-anonymized them, I just reached out to them, right?
00:18:35.359 -->
00:18:40.880And I found my way you know through investors, through connections, like to those addresses.
00:18:40.880 -->
00:18:49.440And and then and and then I presented them with our protocol, which you know was was providing better yield and better rates for financing.
00:18:49.440 -->
00:18:53.680Um that helped um a lot.
00:18:53.680 -->
00:18:58.799Um and yeah, that so that was the initial like go-to-market strategy.
00:18:58.799 -->
00:19:03.039Um that was like first dollars in, like the first few millions.
00:19:03.039 -->
00:19:12.960And then what happened is that we started thinking about distribution and like more crypto native distribution, like all those DeFi apps, those wallets that we could get in.
00:19:12.960 -->
00:19:15.119And this is what took us to like a few hundred dollars.
00:19:17.680 -->
00:19:20.559So there are some people who want to lend, some people want to earn money.
00:19:20.559 -->
00:19:24.160Like, how did you find both part of the equation?
00:19:25.119 -->
00:19:26.160It's uh it's a great question.
00:19:26.160 -->
00:19:27.839So Morpho is a marketplace.
00:19:27.839 -->
00:19:30.319So so you have a cold start problem, right?
00:19:30.319 -->
00:19:36.000And and for the first version of Morpho, we knew this was gonna be very tricky.
00:19:36.000 -->
00:19:42.000Uh and so what we did is we actually piggybacked uh existing marketplaces.
00:19:42.000 -->
00:19:44.720So at the time you had compound and and and Ave.
00:19:44.720 -->
00:19:53.519And so what we would do is like if we would welcome any lender, any bar, if we have a match for them, we would match them through Morpho's matching engine at a good rate.
00:19:53.519 -->
00:19:58.319If we don't have a match for them, we just fall back on compound, or we just fall back on Ave.
00:19:58.319 -->
00:20:01.039And this way we had no cold start problem, right?
00:20:01.039 -->
00:20:09.279The downside though of this model is that we weren't we were basically like leeching the existing liquidity of protocols, but we were not like independent, right?
00:20:09.279 -->
00:20:20.880But it was a great go-to-market strategy because I could come to users and say, hey, you're gonna get as at least as good as compound or at least as good as Ave because we're just gonna in the worst case, you'll end up there.
00:20:20.880 -->
00:20:26.319But in the best case, you'll be, you'll, you'll find a match and you'll be you know better better better off.
00:20:26.319 -->
00:20:31.119And then we wanted more independence, and this is when we started building our own marketplace.
00:20:31.119 -->
00:20:47.920And the the one of the most underrated things about blockchain and and and marketplaces that are on-chain in general, is that everything is programmable, as well as the incentives that you know you can use uh uh within marketplaces.
00:20:47.920 -->
00:20:55.200So you can incentivize very specific behaviors uh on marketplaces to solve this cold star problem, which we did for the second protocol.
00:20:55.200 -->
00:20:57.519It's like, hey, we had no lenders, we had no bars.
00:20:57.519 -->
00:21:08.880So what we're gonna do is that we're gonna program incentives for people to join, even though there is no counterpart, and we're gonna give them ownership in the network as an incentive and and for a limited period of time.
00:21:08.880 -->
00:21:12.240And and this way we bring in inorganic traffic.
00:21:12.240 -->
00:21:24.799And by that time, we need to work, go to market, and find actual users to to to as and you know, basically you you stimulate the bootstrapping of the marketplace with those tokens.
00:21:24.799 -->
00:21:30.480And and yeah, and obviously like incentives have been used in crazy ways in DeFi.
00:21:30.480 -->
00:21:39.759Uh it's just like fire, you know, like if you don't like you could burn your house with it, or you could just like you know, do useful things uh and build rocket ships.
00:21:39.759 -->
00:21:49.200Uh and so to me, this is like the the biggest power and curse of crypto is like the programmability of incentives is is is so incredible, but also so dangerous.
00:21:49.519 -->
00:21:50.319Yeah, 100%.
00:21:50.319 -->
00:21:58.079And you decided to like go and piggyback on top of Ave and compound.
00:21:58.079 -->
00:21:59.759Now you're competing with them because you have.
00:21:59.759 -->
00:22:01.279Your own marketplace.
00:22:01.279 -->
00:22:08.079Why people who are like Web3 native and they understand differences, they should join Morpho versus Ovid Compound.
00:22:08.079 -->
00:22:09.519What's why you're better?
00:22:09.519 -->
00:22:12.400Other than like you're just the most audited code on the planet.
00:22:12.799 -->
00:22:15.279Yeah, I guess like the positioning is very different now.
00:22:15.279 -->
00:22:18.799Think of Compound and Ave as a bank, right?
00:22:18.799 -->
00:22:26.480You deposit your crypto, they're gonna manage it for you, they're gonna invest it, uh, take risks, uh, you know, manage the code, change the code, etc.
00:22:26.480 -->
00:22:28.160Whereas Morpho is not a bank.
00:22:28.160 -->
00:22:30.240Morpho is infrastructure for a bank, right?
00:22:30.240 -->
00:22:31.279So what does that mean?
00:22:31.279 -->
00:22:38.240It means that if you want to build your own Aave, if you want to configure it the way you want and control it all the way, you can use Morpho for that.
00:22:38.240 -->
00:22:42.079So we're not exactly directly competing with Ave, we're one layer below.
00:22:42.079 -->
00:22:45.920Our builders, the people building on Morpho, are competing with Ave, right?
00:22:45.920 -->
00:22:50.000Like, so for example, like Coinbase is building vaults on Morpho, right?
00:22:50.000 -->
00:22:59.440So they have their own strategy that they you know, they have agency over, control over, they control the code, they can control you know through a curator, they can control the risk, etc.
00:22:59.440 -->
00:23:02.559And that product is competitive with Ave.
00:23:02.559 -->
00:23:04.319So Morpho is an infrastructure play.
00:23:04.319 -->
00:23:12.160We're not finance people, we're computer science people that allow finance people to come on chain and have control over their their own strategy.
00:23:12.559 -->
00:23:23.759Um and and I think this is, you know, people can see why we've basically on Morpho versus Aave and others, they are forced to just accept whatever they're putting on in front of them.
00:23:24.319 -->
00:23:27.759I think this is the key differentiator, especially as we went towards enterprises.
00:23:27.759 -->
00:23:35.839And the main reason why every exchange and fintechs have been choosing Morpho over the last like you know few months and and and years is they get to control, right?
00:23:35.839 -->
00:23:46.880And and when you have something like Kelp you know, hack happening, like you know, all the fintechs on Morpho that were building on Morpho, they did not even call us because they knew what they were exposing themselves to because they chose, right?
00:23:46.880 -->
00:23:53.279Um and and and that so that's like the key differentiator is like TratFi wants to control.
00:23:53.279 -->
00:23:56.319Like they don't want to let like crypto native people invest on their behalf.
00:23:56.319 -->
00:23:57.359This is their job, basically.
00:23:57.359 -->
00:23:58.720This is asset management, right?
00:23:58.720 -->
00:24:01.279So they know they know they know what to what to do, right?
00:24:01.279 -->
00:24:07.359What they don't know how to do is how do you get the technology and how do you get global connectivity through on-chain rails?
00:24:07.359 -->
00:24:08.960And this is the value they're looking for.
00:24:08.960 -->
00:24:11.279They're not looking to reinvent underwriting.
00:24:11.279 -->
00:24:14.559Like at the end of the day, the people that need financing are gonna be the same.
00:24:14.559 -->
00:24:23.119What's gonna change is Rails and the openness of those Rails that's gonna foster more competition, more connectivity, better liquidity, better pricing, all that type of stuff, right?
00:24:23.119 -->
00:24:36.799Um and and you know, I've always been like thinking about like you know, cryptos like PMF overall, is like obviously there is the speculation part, but but but the most true PMF will be when crypto becomes infrastructure.
00:24:36.799 -->
00:24:38.799And I think about the same for for Morpho.
00:24:38.799 -->
00:24:43.599Like I don't see our role as managing capital, I see our role as providing the rails for people to connect.
00:24:44.079 -->
00:24:44.640Makes sense.
00:24:44.640 -->
00:24:49.039And and I have two questions.
00:24:49.039 -->
00:24:53.519Second one is more interesting, but I will learn from I learned from you to be patient.
00:24:53.519 -->
00:25:01.440So the first question is like how these enterprises are going to trust you?
00:25:01.440 -->
00:25:04.799Like, what's your pitch to black rock of the world?
00:25:04.799 -->
00:25:13.839Like people like who are owning or managing trillions of dollars in assets, they are happy with their 4%, 5% they're getting from their banks.
00:25:13.839 -->
00:25:20.480So why they should come on chain and and trust a bunch of computer science kids like me and you?
00:25:20.480 -->
00:25:22.960It's a great question.
00:25:23.119 -->
00:25:25.680Um I think there are four reasons.
00:25:25.680 -->
00:25:36.480Um the first one I'll take an example is if you look at Coinbase and what they did, why did Coinbase move on-chain?
00:25:36.480 -->
00:25:39.279Coinbase used to have a centralized lending product.
00:25:39.279 -->
00:25:42.880They were like, you know, in the Coinbase app you could get loans, right?
00:25:42.880 -->
00:25:45.759Um on on the back of your Bitcoin.
00:25:45.759 -->
00:25:56.319But but getting those loans, they were financed through like, you know, a desk or I can I like basically in a centralized way, which means that they were limited in terms of the capital they would connect with, right?
00:25:56.319 -->
00:26:02.559Which means the size of the loans they were offering were limited and the rate that they could get was also limited.
00:26:02.559 -->
00:26:03.200Right.
00:26:03.200 -->
00:26:09.440If you plug on on-chain rails, like Morpho, the difference now is that the infrastructure is open.
00:26:09.440 -->
00:26:13.119And if the infrastructure is open, it means that anyone can compete.
00:26:13.119 -->
00:26:25.359And so what happened when Coinbase started plugging onto BASE to settle their loans is that you had billions of dollars, literally, that came to BASE to compete to give the best possible rates to Coinbase users.
00:26:25.359 -->
00:26:36.960And that that was to me like you know, DeFi first proof of PMF that we could offer a product that was the exact same parity with like a a web tube product.
00:26:36.960 -->
00:26:38.480So you have the same feature parity.
00:26:38.480 -->
00:26:46.240It looks the same, we have account abstraction, we have layer twos, like you don't know there is a wallet, you don't know there's a chain, you don't know, you don't pay for gas, like all that type of things.
00:26:46.240 -->
00:26:54.000Yet the product was financially a better product with better interest rates, with better liquidity, because it was leveraging open Rails.
00:26:54.000 -->
00:26:55.440And why was that better?
00:26:55.440 -->
00:26:58.000Because openness fosters competition, right?
00:26:58.000 -->
00:27:06.480And so lenders were bidding to death to basically provide the best possible rates to Coinbase users, which pushes value towards Coinbase users.
00:27:06.480 -->
00:27:16.480And that was the key number one reason why people should move on-chain is because openness is gonna bring in more liquidity and better pricing discovery, right?
00:27:16.480 -->
00:27:18.000That's just inevitable, right?
00:27:18.000 -->
00:27:27.279And and and that there is maybe there's a timing question of for depending on the type of loans, it won't happen, like you know, existing infrastructure is already working well, etc.
00:27:27.279 -->
00:27:32.720But but liquidity bags liquidity, and all those compounding effects are fostered by openness, right?
00:27:32.720 -->
00:27:34.799So it's a snowball that is inevitable, right?
00:27:35.279 -->
00:27:39.759Just faster, more efficient, more programmable type of lending.
00:27:40.160 -->
00:27:40.720So that makes sense.
00:27:40.720 -->
00:27:53.920I guess and and just sorry, just to just to add on this, is is really from a lending perspective, it's just the connect because it's open, it's more connected, and so it's more liquid, and it's more competitive, and so you get better prices, is is basically it.
00:27:54.400 -->
00:28:00.960You get better prices, that means you get more capital, you get better, more efficient, and then at least more capital.
00:28:00.960 -->
00:28:02.559So it's just a wireless loop.
00:28:02.559 -->
00:28:03.599So that's great.
00:28:03.599 -->
00:28:08.960And that leads to my second question: like, what does morpho mean for everyday people?
00:28:08.960 -->
00:28:28.799I understand that if I want to get a loan today, I have to go to the bank, I have to stand in line, I need to say hi to a bunch of people I don't know, like a bunch of strangers, and like apply for a loan, submit a bunch of information, and then it probably takes me like three to five days at best.
00:28:28.799 -->
00:28:35.200But with a protocol like Morpho, I can just get a loan right away against my asset.
00:28:35.200 -->
00:28:43.359Like, and everything, like as you mentioned, there is no like document uploading, there is no wait in line, everything happens online, it happens fast.
00:28:43.359 -->
00:28:50.240But I can get an unsecured loan from my bank because they know me.
00:28:50.240 -->
00:28:54.880Um, but unchained everything like kind of anonymized.
00:28:54.880 -->
00:28:56.640How do you solve that problem?
00:28:57.119 -->
00:28:59.920A loan fundamentally is a promise of repayment.
00:28:59.920 -->
00:29:03.759You're gonna promise that you're gonna come back with more money than you were given.
00:29:03.759 -->
00:29:07.519Um and and the question is how do you back that promise?
00:29:07.519 -->
00:29:08.799How can people trust you?
00:29:08.799 -->
00:29:14.480One way to be trusted is to have a big stash of Bitcoin, right?
00:29:14.480 -->
00:29:16.720And say, hey, if I don't come back, this is yours.
00:29:16.720 -->
00:29:17.839It's not the only way.
00:29:17.839 -->
00:29:25.519You can also provide identity, you can provide all the documents you mentioned that could foster trust uh in your in your promise of repayment.
00:29:25.519 -->
00:29:34.480Morpho's role is uh basically to allow you to express why you should be trusted to the entire world.
00:29:34.480 -->
00:29:35.119Right.
00:29:35.119 -->
00:29:41.920Instead of going to a single bank that is gonna give you a loan and is gonna own the pricing, is gonna own you basically.
00:29:41.920 -->
00:29:45.839Uh instead, you go to Morpho, you say, hey, here's why people should trust me.
00:29:45.839 -->
00:29:50.480And Morpho is gonna connect you to thousands of banks and it's gonna have them compete for you.
00:29:50.480 -->
00:29:51.440That's the thing.
00:29:51.440 -->
00:30:21.359That's the main difference, is that we're gonna foster, like think of Morpho as like a visa for credit, where once when when you come to the Morpho network and you explain, here is my collateral, here is my identity, and you submit all the things that you think we should foster trust in your ability to repay, then then every single lender on the other side's side, whether that is a Vault Curator, whether that is BlackRock or an individual that is looking at your intent, they can just all compete to give you the best possible rate, right?
00:30:21.359 -->
00:30:27.519And and this is basically what Morpho is, it's the machine to discover the price of what you know people should be trusted at.
00:30:27.519 -->
00:30:45.440And and you know, I hope that in the future, Morpho is invisible to everybody, but they just have a way to obtain, like, you know, they can basically power their ambition with open access to capital, but truly open, one that is like competitive and that can price all of their trust guarantees, basically.
00:30:45.920 -->
00:30:46.640Makes sense.
00:30:46.640 -->
00:30:50.000And what what is the role of a stablecoin in the world of Morpho?
00:30:50.000 -->
00:30:51.759Do you even care about a stable coin?
00:30:52.240 -->
00:30:53.519Stable coins are important.
00:30:53.519 -->
00:31:05.279Like uh stable coins are you know, one could think of them as the checking account, um and and morpho as like the savings account, or at least the vault as the savings account, like the non-custodial way.
00:31:05.279 -->
00:31:07.680Um that that's one mental model.
00:31:07.680 -->
00:31:11.200You know, stable coins at the end of the day are just a database, right?
00:31:11.200 -->
00:31:14.799Um and and that accounts for like who owns what.
00:31:14.799 -->
00:31:25.599And and and Morpho is like basically an auxiliary to that database that is basically explaining what are the obligations of people uh denominated in that stable coin.
00:31:25.599 -->
00:31:30.799So for us, it's more like a technology uh that that that we use that is very convenient.
00:31:30.799 -->
00:31:36.079Um yeah, it's it's a tool for us, but you know, we could settle, we could settle in any asset.
00:31:36.079 -->
00:31:44.240Like if you want to do a Tesla loan or like tokenize like SpaceX, like whatever shares, uh you can lend them and do securities lending.
00:31:44.240 -->
00:31:49.759Or if you want to lend your RWAs or like you know, your your credit funds, like you can do that on Morpho.
00:31:49.759 -->
00:31:50.960We're pretty agnostic.
00:31:50.960 -->
00:31:57.920Turns out stable coins is you know what is driving most of the loan settlement, because this is how people account for their obligations usually.
00:31:57.920 -->
00:31:58.960But it's not the only way.
00:31:59.359 -->
00:32:00.079Makes sense.
00:32:00.079 -->
00:32:07.839And are you competing with staking protocols and vaults that they're giving like 20% return?
00:32:07.839 -->
00:32:10.640Like how do you compete in that ward?
00:32:10.640 -->
00:32:19.920That like high like higher interest and higher rates is always um incentivizing people to just move at least part of their assets there.
00:32:20.400 -->
00:32:22.079Morpho is like risk agnostic.
00:32:22.079 -->
00:32:24.640So you can have pretty crazy risky stuff on Morpho.
00:32:24.640 -->
00:32:26.000It's a permissionless system.
00:32:26.000 -->
00:32:32.319So you can anyone can come in and offer products that are very risky or that are very low risk, right?
00:32:32.319 -->
00:32:34.240Like we don't have an opinion on that.
00:32:34.240 -->
00:32:40.319Um then it's for the distributor to surface that to the user and you know properly explain the risk, of course.
00:32:40.319 -->
00:32:45.920And if some products are illegal in certain jurisdictions, they don't show them, like all this type of stuff.
00:32:45.920 -->
00:32:49.839We are generally complementary to any vault stack that exists.
00:32:49.839 -->
00:32:56.799Like we have our own vault stack, but you have other people building their own vault stack, and they usually all end up depositing on Morpho and lending on Morpho.
00:32:56.799 -->
00:33:00.960Um so so so that's one.
00:33:00.960 -->
00:33:09.920For the staking specifically, we don't do blockchain staking like native asset staking, like e-staking or soul staking.
00:33:09.920 -->
00:33:14.640Uh we think of this as like a separate business and we don't want like we don't want to unfocus.
00:33:14.640 -->
00:33:15.599So yeah.
00:33:16.000 -->
00:33:26.640So you but but can Morpho be used for vaults and people who are staking, or you're like going head-to-head and competing for the capital?
00:33:27.039 -->
00:33:33.440So for native proof-of-stake staking, we don't compete, it's just like a different product.
00:33:33.440 -->
00:33:36.960That you know, if you have ETH, you want to stake it to secure the Ethereum blockchain.
00:33:36.960 -->
00:33:38.799That's a separate product from Morpho.
00:33:38.799 -->
00:33:41.359The the ETH is not lent out, right?
00:33:41.359 -->
00:33:44.640It's just staked in the proof-of-stake sense way.
00:33:44.640 -->
00:33:46.559So we we don't compete with those.
00:33:46.559 -->
00:33:57.039Um if this is a vault provider, which is investing the asset somewhere, usually we we so we have our own vaults, but for us, like our vaults are open source.
00:33:57.039 -->
00:34:00.640It's like a commodity that we put out for anyone to deploy their own vault.
00:34:00.640 -->
00:34:04.160Uh, but we're we also welcome other vaults to deposit on Morpho.
00:34:04.160 -->
00:34:09.599And so the the lending, the credit markets of Morpho, like most vaults invest in them.
00:34:09.599 -->
00:34:13.119Uh, so we don't see them as like a uh a competitor at all.
00:34:13.119 -->
00:34:16.239We see them as like a complement uh to us, right?
00:34:16.239 -->
00:34:19.840That basically allows us to get more distribution, more capital, etc.
00:34:19.840 -->
00:34:21.599And we partner with all of them, by the way.
00:34:21.599 -->
00:34:22.239So so yeah.
00:34:22.239 -->
00:34:24.800And this is why we host Vault Summit in the first place.
00:34:24.800 -->
00:34:33.280Like in Vault Summit, we we welcome a bunch of like Vault players uh and and they get to like you know deposit um in into more for markets.
00:34:33.760 -->
00:34:34.639Makes sense.
00:34:34.639 -->
00:34:37.039Um this this was an amazing conversation.
00:34:37.039 -->
00:34:48.320I'm sure a lot of my audience learned a lot about staking and lending and on-chain protocols, but you did a massive round recently at $2 billion market cap.
00:34:48.320 -->
00:34:53.840Uh and you want to tell us more about that and what's what's the plan for the next two to three years?
00:34:53.840 -->
00:34:55.440How do you want to spend that money?
00:34:55.760 -->
00:34:56.320Yeah, sure.
00:34:56.320 -->
00:35:04.639I guess you know, crypto is at its turning point where the speculation part is dead, right?
00:35:04.639 -->
00:35:28.639Like if I'm being honest, like there's no such thing anymore as like crypto native businesses that are and that said that part of crypto is dead, but we can like the one that is like thriving is definitely the infrastructure part, like crypto being, you know, crypto for payments, you know, uh stable coins uh and and credit uh in in general.
00:35:28.639 -->
00:35:35.599And the reason why this is thriving is like you have massive interest from distributors, like very large distribution.
00:35:35.599 -->
00:35:44.079And you know, just like you you guys know this even more than than than than we do because payments came in earlier in the time to market than than than loans.
00:35:44.079 -->
00:35:50.960Uh but I can't think of a single fintech now that does not have a roadmap to fully move on chain in the next two to three years.
00:35:50.960 -->
00:35:52.480Like literally everybody.
00:35:52.480 -->
00:36:02.880Like uh and and everybody's integrating self-custodial accounts, everybody's integrating yield, everybody's integrating loans, stable coins, payments, uh stablecoin cards, like uh uh everything.
00:36:02.880 -->
00:36:07.760That's just the future of the infrastructure of every single fintech out there.
00:36:07.760 -->
00:36:12.800Um and and then the question for Morpho is like how do you build the network?
00:36:12.800 -->
00:36:26.480Like how do you build, how do you effectively build, like um uh go to market and and go for each of those those uh institutions that have capital that is moving on chain, and how do you connect them to the network?
00:36:26.480 -->
00:36:32.800And that takes a lot of resources to build the engine, the team, that is gonna effectively bootstrap the market, right?
00:36:32.800 -->
00:36:42.320So one should think of this raise and the reason why we raised the same way Visa made like massive investment as they were bootstrapping the network like you know 60 years ago.
00:36:42.320 -->
00:36:43.440That's the same idea.
00:36:43.440 -->
00:36:55.760It's like network businesses like Morpho require an immense amount of activation energy to go after every single partner, distribution partner, and and get them into the network, right?
00:36:56.239 -->
00:36:56.960Makes sense.
00:36:56.960 -->
00:37:06.559And so like what what are the sneak peek that you can tell our audience about things that will happen soon, other than like version three that's coming up?
00:37:07.360 -->
00:37:18.000Yeah, so so this version three, you know, obviously quick quick note on that is that we're just gonna introduce like fixed-rate fixed term loans, um, which come in over cloud transform, but also in under cloud transforms.
00:37:18.000 -->
00:37:19.760And that's gonna unlock a lot, right?
00:37:19.760 -->
00:37:20.960So that's that's the first one.
00:37:20.960 -->
00:37:21.760That's huge.
00:37:21.760 -->
00:37:27.920Um with this comes two types of players FinTechs and TratFi.
00:37:27.920 -->
00:37:33.280Um TratFi wants to operate the Rails, FinTechs wants to distribute the Rails, right?
00:37:33.280 -->
00:37:44.400And you know, we we disclosed that you know very large partnership that we're having with Apollo, that is like a one trillion dollar size fund that is you know moving on chain uh for their credit with Morpho.
00:37:44.400 -->
00:37:56.960Uh but one has to think that every single like large asset manager or large bank has now a roadmap to to operate like their financial services on-chain.
00:37:56.960 -->
00:38:06.000And and with that, the reason why they're interested is that they see AUM coming in you know six to eighteen months through those like fintechs, right?
00:38:06.000 -->
00:38:08.960And they don't want to miss out on all this AUM that is coming.
00:38:08.960 -->
00:38:18.880Um Yeah, and so I think you know, if I were to shape what the the following few months are gonna look like is basically gonna be fintech in the front, you know, try to find the back, operated on on-chain rails.
00:38:19.280 -->
00:38:19.760That's awesome.
00:38:19.760 -->
00:38:22.159Yeah, I think the future will be on-chain.
00:38:22.159 -->
00:38:33.599Um you're like building the payment version of Morpho and uh on-chain uh the network, you're building the network for lenders and uh lending in general.
00:38:33.599 -->
00:38:36.079So I'm really glad that we had this conversation.
00:38:36.079 -->
00:38:41.599There is a lot of uh mutuality and a lot of things in common, but uh I learned a lot myself.
00:38:41.599 -->
00:38:44.079I'm sure like our audience will also enjoy it.
00:38:44.079 -->
00:38:48.320Uh I have like a couple of like fun questions to ask to wrap up the conversation.
00:38:48.320 -->
00:38:51.199One is like what is in the water in France?
00:38:51.199 -->
00:39:01.039Like you have a lot of French blockchain companies from Ledger, Bastion, Preview, and you like is it is it a big thing in in Paris?
00:39:01.039 -->
00:39:03.760Like you have a big community of blockchain engineers?
00:39:04.000 -->
00:39:05.199Yeah, I guess.
00:39:05.199 -->
00:39:09.519You know, I think historically France has done pretty well when it came to finance.
00:39:09.519 -->
00:39:14.559Like, I think fundamentally it comes from like education being very math-oriented.
00:39:14.559 -->
00:39:21.679Um, so if you look at like trading desk, like in the US, like all the exotic options traders, they're they're all French, right?
00:39:21.679 -->
00:39:23.119Like for whatever reason.
00:39:23.119 -->
00:39:30.159Uh so I think just part of the educational system has a bias towards this type of of technology and and applications.
00:39:30.159 -->
00:39:31.760So I think that's one.
00:39:31.760 -->
00:39:36.320I will say though we're not entrepreneurs entrepreneurs at heart, you know.
00:39:36.320 -->
00:39:42.559So we've even though there's a lot of like engineers, uh it's pretty rare to find founders.
00:39:42.559 -->
00:39:47.599Um and and usually they would go to the US, right?
00:39:47.599 -->
00:39:48.800Like to fund companies.
00:39:48.800 -->
00:39:52.960And I think that's the case of NAS or or or or Henry from Privy.
00:39:52.960 -->
00:40:01.360Um and um anyhow, so you know, I I think that's probably the fundamental reason why we see a little uptake.
00:40:01.360 -->
00:40:11.199I will say though the ecosystem um um has lost a little bit of momentum uh uh in general, but I think this is probably true for all crypto uh uh overall.
00:40:11.199 -->
00:40:17.360Um just the market concentrating around fewer companies uh and as as the ecosystem matures.
00:40:17.679 -->
00:40:20.639But you're not coming to US or staying in French, France, right?
00:40:21.039 -->
00:40:22.719I I am in between the two, actually.
00:40:22.719 -->
00:40:25.599So I am you know still waiting for visa approval.
00:40:25.599 -->
00:40:34.960But uh I'm like 40% in New York, 40% in Paris, and then 20% wherever Morpho needs me to close someone, uh which means a lot of trips.
00:40:35.360 -->
00:40:36.480I know, I know.
00:40:36.480 -->
00:40:41.760Um my last question, which is the tradition of this podcast, is what's your favorite restaurant?
00:40:41.760 -->
00:40:43.679What's your go-to restaurant in Paris?
00:40:45.199 -->
00:40:53.440Well, you know, I'm tempted to not answer that for security reasons because we just a good restaurant in Paris.
00:40:53.440 -->
00:40:58.320Yeah, I I guess I guess you know I I like Chinese food in in Paris.
00:40:58.320 -->
00:41:01.440I think I I think Paris is amazing, Chinese food.
00:41:01.440 -->
00:41:09.280Overall, not super good Asian food, but Chinese specifically, whether that's you know Sichuanese or Shaangxi food is is is pretty amazing here.
00:41:09.280 -->
00:41:12.320Um so yeah, I think I would go for that.
00:41:12.719 -->
00:41:13.840Okay, sounds good.
00:41:13.840 -->
00:41:15.679Thank you, Paul, again, for your time.
00:41:15.679 -->
00:41:17.280I really enjoyed the conversation.
00:41:17.280 -->
00:41:17.920Thank you.
00:41:17.920 -->
00:41:19.119Thanks for having me.
