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Hello, and welcome, Inspired podcast community.
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This is your new episode.
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My name is Caroline, and my today's guest is
Grace Quantock.
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And I'm
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so happy that you are here and said yes to our
interview.
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How are you doing today?
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Thank you.
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I'm really excited today.
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I'm so glad to be here.
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I'm actually pretty excited today because,
actually, the book is in a newspaper.
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It's in a national newspaper.
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And what's really exciting is in the online
version, they included pictures of me with my
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rescue dog, one of my rescue dogs.
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So I'm
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Oh, I love that.
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And I see your book in the background, the
cover.
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And I also can tell you that I added it to the
Amazon list I created for all my podcast
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guests.
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So it's already there, and I'm so excited about
talking about that.
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Of course, I would like to introduce you to the
audience first, and you are an award-winning
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anti-oppressive psychotherapeutic counselor,
speaker, and author based in South Wales with
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over 15 years of experience.
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You support marginalized individuals living
with chronic pain, illness, and complex trauma.
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Recognized for her groundbreaking work, Grace
is the Future Young Leader of Wales award
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recipient and has been featured in major
publications like The Guardian and The Times of
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London.
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As an outspoken critic of the bootstrap
wellness narrative, she advocates for systemic
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change in health care and has recently
published her book, and you talked about it,
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Living Well with Chronic Illness.
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Grace's unique perspective is shaped by her own
experience with chronic illness, fueling her
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mission to help others thrive on their own
terms.
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Welcome to the Inspired podcast, Grace
Quantock.
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Thank you.
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So happy to meet you.
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Okay.
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My first question to you, how has your personal
experience with chronic illness shaped your
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approach to counseling and advocacy?
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Yes.
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So, you know, really a lot of what has shaped
that is, you know, when I was doing clinical
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training, they actually had I mean, I'm I'm,
you know, really hoping it's better now because
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there has been, you know, I trained kind of,
you know, a little while ago.
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But, they did a lesson, a series on working
with difference.
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And that was where they talked about things
like illness or disability or LGBTQIA+ things.
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And so, you know, I came up to those lessons
and I said, oh, great.
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Are you gonna teach me to work with nondisabled
men?
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Because, like, that's that's who's other from
me because I'm a disabled woman.
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So I kinda said, like, you know, is is is that
what I'm gonna learn?
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And they were kind of like, no.
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We're we're gonna teach people how to work with
disabled people and LGBTQIA+ people and and,
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people of color.
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I'm like, hold on.
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So it's hold on.
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Hold on.
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Hold on.
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You're making this default, and you're actually
calling us other.
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What would have been really interesting would
have been to check in around how we work with
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that which we perceive as other from us or that
which is unfamiliar from us.
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So, you know, as I was kind of going through
the training, I knew there were a lot of spaces
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where things needed to be, I guess, a lot more
nuanced.
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You know, quite often, I feel like therapy has
been, you know, really, really helpful for me
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as a disabled woman with chronic illness.
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Of course, I am a therapist.
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I work with clients, and I actually specialize
in complexity.
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So I work with complex trauma.
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People have got multiple marginalized
identities.
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But where I struggled is often therapy,
psychodynamic therapy, one of my trainings,
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traditionally approaches chronic illness very
much in isolation.
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So it orients the issues in our body.
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So it says like, oh, are you, you know, you're
struggling because you're suffering or because
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you're in pain.
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But that might well be part of it.
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But it's not as simple as that.
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It's not only our history and our childhood and
our experiences.
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I love what there's a Jungian analyst, James
Hillman, and he said, you know, sometimes
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therapy can make every problem a subjective
inner problem, but that's not where problems
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come from.
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They come from the environment, the cities, the
economy, the racism, the architecture, the
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school systems, capitalism, exploitation.
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So if you turn all that on you and only look as
though you were the one who's wrong, it can be
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very isolating.
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Whereas, actually, most people with chronic
illness struggle with lack of accessible
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environments, with the fact that a lot of
research isn't where we need it to be.
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And we perhaps don't have the treatments or the
kind of symptom management that we need.
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And you're not alone in that.
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So in my work, what chronic illness has helped
me to learn as a therapist is really look at
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the systemic and the community as well as your
individual experience.
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So how did your parents treat illness when you
were a child?
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How did you see illness and pain growing up?
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That's important, but it's one factor in the
wider community and systemic experience that
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impacts us.
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Wow.
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I understand.
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It's your systemic approach, of course.
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And it's not only the, you know, it is easy to
say, yeah, you have an illness or something, a
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disorder, and then this is your excuse, not
only for the people, but also for the
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psychotherapist, for example, for the helpers,
and they this is like labeling.
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And then you don't see really the solution.
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Right?
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And sometimes there's actually an informal term
called a rubbish bin diagnosis.
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And some diagnoses are stigmatized like this.
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And so some professionals, because of the lack
of support in their training, because of the
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ableism that still exists in health care and
professional trainings, unfortunately.
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Because of the one that has existed in the
past, even if it hopefully is changing now, it
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has still trained people that are in practice
today.
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And so what sometimes happens is people will
look at a newly presenting symptom, and they
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will go, oh, it's just one of your preexisting
conditions.
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I talk about this, actually, in the book where
I presented with a new symptom that turned out
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to be a very serious neurological event.
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But at the beginning, the neurologist went, oh,
it's probably just one of your preexisting,
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it's this preexisting condition.
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And I went, well, that condition does have a
lot of symptoms, so you could kind of ascribe a
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lot of things to it probably.
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But this actually wasn't one of them.
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So I really was able, you know, I was able
actually to challenge him and say, well, that's
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the first time that this illness has ever
presented with this symptom.
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Like, do we think that it's changing the
disease?
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Which, of course, isn't true.
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And, you know, I was able to kind of then get
an MRI and get some treatment.
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But sometimes people will look.
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And the other thing that can also happen is
when you experience the intersection of ableism
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and ageism.
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So it's when, you know, somebody will kind of
go, well, you know, you're doing really well
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for a wheelchair user or you're doing really
well for a chronically ill person or for
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somebody of your age.
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And that doesn't take into account.
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So what if, like, you were at a certain level,
your symptoms, experience, or capacity or
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mobility was a certain level and now it's
drastically changed?
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If the medic's expectation is the helpless
expectation, is that, well, you're not gonna
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have a good quality of life, then they possibly
won't investigate fully.
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You know, I had a psychiatrist once who said,
look at me.
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Look at you.
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Of course, you're depressed.
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I said, excuse me.
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And she said, look at you.
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You're 28.
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You have to be pushed around in a wheelchair by
your boyfriend.
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Who'd want your life?
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And I was like, okay.
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You've just it was actually my husband.
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But, anyway, you've actually just shown me
really clearly that you're not a safe person
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for me, and you don't have the expertise or the
knowledge to treat me.
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She was kind of overwhelmed or over not
overwhelmed is not the right word.
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Like, she was not the right person, and she was
incapable or incompetent as well.
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Well, I mean, I think you're right.
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I think she's probably very overloaded, maybe.
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I don't wanna criticize her personally.
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I mean, I have absolute understanding of how
difficult the mental health system is.
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You know, she did also actually take, you know,
she asked what I was doing to support myself.
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And I told her the books I was reading.
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And bless her, she wrote them down to share
with her other patients.
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You know, she obviously did want to make a
difference, but she was holding.
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She had been, she had absorbed somewhere along
the line these very ableist views.
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The idea that life with disability isn't worth
living.
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The idea that it would be impossible to be
happy living a life like mine.
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And none of that's true, but it's certainly how
we often see chronic illness and disability
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portrayed in media.
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So, of course, we will absorb these views.
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But as helpers, part of our professional role
is noticing when we have absorbed these
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prejudicial views and working to overcome them
and dismiss them and not let them impact
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patients.
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Yes.
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I understand.
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So that means it all starts with you.
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So the person who wants to help others has to
investigate first the prejudices and the
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limitations, let's say.
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And if so, just question, is it true?
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And then be a little bit tolerant, but I also
think the word is not the right word.
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We talk about professional persons here, and we
never know.
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You know?
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Maybe she had a bad day, but she also, what I
understood is, she had good intentions to help.
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And it's tricky, isn't it?
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Because she may have had a bad day, but yet she
could have really harmed the patient.
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She may have had good intentions, and yet her
behavior was still harmful.
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So, it's really tricky.
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I think one thing I always encourage people to
do, all of us including professionals, is to
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really ask ourselves: Where am I orienting the
issue?
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So, where am I locating the problem?
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When I'm speaking to somebody about something
they're struggling with, am I locating it in
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them and their body?
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Or am I locating it somewhere else?
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Like in the, so for example, you know,
sometimes people will talk about, oh,
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healthiness, long term, and weight.
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Now a lot of this includes a huge amount of
anti-fat bias, which is a great problem.
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But what people will often talk about, I
noticed, is they will orient the issue in the
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individuals.
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So they will treat people not being able to
access the right cultural food for them, the
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right food for their conditions, whatever it
might be, enough food, affordable food.
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They somehow treat it as an individual problem
and as though if people just kind of made more
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of an effort in the kitchen, quote unquote,
that somehow everything would be better.
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And I remember being in a meeting once and
somebody was, they were talking about what they
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called, quote unquote, junk food, which, again,
I think is a very stigmatizing term.
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But and I put my hand up and I just, and this
is quite a few years ago now.
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I said, I love that you think I am that
powerful, that the multimillion-dollar
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marketing budget of some of these companies is
no match for my willpower.
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And that I can just overcome the fact that my
kitchen is not adapted, is not accessible.
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The place I live, they couldn't do it.
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So I love that you think that I can just
transcend all these difficulties.
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But the fact that food companies hire
psychologists and have huge marketing budgets,
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huge campaigns for things, but you think the
solution to the fact that they're closing down
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leisure centers because they can't afford to
keep them open, so there's no safe place to
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exercise, for example, or many people
experience street harassment as we're disabled.
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You think the solution to all of these systemic
issues is just for me to try harder.
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I love that you think I'm that powerful, but I
hate to break it to you.
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I'm actually only human.
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So I'm actually not powerful enough to override
multiple systemic difficulties.
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And so I just always ask, you know, where are
we locating it?
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And if you are locating it in the individual,
who is that convenient for?
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Does that let anybody off the hook?
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Does it kind of go, oh, well, we don't need to
make the park accessible for disabled children
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because they just should not be disabled or
something.
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You know what?
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What happens when we locate it in the
individual?
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I understand.
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It's like putting yourself over others, like,
like, you know, something from from a society
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or a company as well, and they they might have
the perspective to serving people with their,
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let's say, junk food, but it isn't healthy at
all.
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And then everyone is wondering why we are
overweight or not healthy anymore, and we have
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to take all those pills.
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Thank you so much for sharing.
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I think I understood your approach to that.
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Okay.
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Of course, I have another question.
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What motivated you to challenge the bootstrap
wellness narrative, and what changes would you
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like to see in the health care system?
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Such a good question.
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So, you know, I for me, I guess, with the
bootstrap wellness narrative, really I for
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myself personally and for my clients I got I
struggled with seeing books, media out there
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that were very prescriptive and very
aspirational and very aspirational in certain
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ways.
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Right?
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So they were aspirational towards they always
focused on, an aesthetic that was thin, that
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was had an antifat bias in it that promoted a
certain type of, like, of of healthiness, a
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kind of an aesthetic of health.
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Because actually, you mentioned you mentioned
diet.
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What's healthy for me might be very different
to somebody who has a baby and is nursing that
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baby.
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Might be very different to somebody who is
working on an oil rig or somebody who's doing
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manual labor all day.
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Might be very different to an Indigenous person
living in Turtle Island on their, on there is a
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their nation land.
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You know, it's gonna be all very different.
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It's gonna have different cultural backgrounds.
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It's gonna have different access to foods.
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It's all gonna be different in different ways.
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But I didn't see any of that.
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What I saw were things that were very
aspirational towards a certain
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one-size-fits-all narrative.
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And I felt like it ignored my lived experience
and the lived experience of the kind of people
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I work with.
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And so, you know, I thought about what I call,
you know, the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative.
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And I also talked about compulsive miracle cure
culture.
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And, you know, I've come up with these terms of
the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative to really just
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name what I see happening.
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So the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative is an
approach to healing that is individualistic,
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perfectionist, and it tells us that we can and
we should heal alone and that if we try hard
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enough, we can have a quote-unquote normal
life.
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But in that, it assumes we all have access to
the same resources like wealth, fresh food,
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transport, safe housing, green space,
community.
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It assumes that everybody has access to these
things in the same ways, which we don't.
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And then it ignores or makes invisible systemic
inequalities.
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And it tells you, you can do it.
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You have all the power.
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You can change your life, which sounds
empowering.
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Right?
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To say, you can do it.
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I did it.
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You can do it if you try hard enough.
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Just follow my plan.
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But here's the thing.
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If you don't have access to the same resources,
if you don't have the same conditions or the
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same body or the same experiences as that
person, their plan may well not work for you.
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And so then, actually, what seemed very
empowering at the beginning is actually hugely
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disempowering because it tells you you have all
the power.
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You can do it if you try.
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And so maybe, like me, you try.
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And then it doesn't work.
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And you start thinking, what did I do wrong?
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I tried.
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What did I do wrong?
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I did exactly what they did.
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I, oh, I tried to do exactly.
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I did everything I could.
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Why didn't it work for me?
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What's wrong with my body?
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And so I think when we tell people they have
all the power when that isn't true, that's
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actually very disempowering over time.
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It feels empowering at the beginning.
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But what in this work in the book we talk about
is discerning, is separating out the bits that
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we do have control over and what we can impact
and the bits that we don't have control over
290
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and how we're gonna navigate living without
that control.
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It's more nuanced work.
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It's trickier.
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It's not as kind of rah rah go go and saying,
you can do it.
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You can be like me if you just try and buy my
course 99 easy payments of $99 or whatever it
295
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might be.
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00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:46,914
Like, it's like, you know, people I sell
courses.
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00:17:46,914 --> 00:17:51,095
People can sell courses, but it's that promise
of, like, you can do it just like me.
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Well, I don't know.
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And I specifically do not say in the book the
medications I take, the diagnoses I have, or
300
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specifically what I do in my healing because it
may not be relevant to anybody else.
301
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I understand.
302
00:18:06,819 --> 00:18:13,615
And it, it refers back to what you said earlier
about ask yourself where it is located or where
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you locate the problem.
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And you talked about the individual versus the
resources that we don't have access to, in the
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same way or the same manner, you said.
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00:18:26,669 --> 00:18:32,529
And, yeah, I love that because I understand
something here, and I learned something.
307
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Thank you so much about yeah.
308
00:18:34,909 --> 00:18:40,944
So, yes, I'm so happy about that you published
the book, that it's out already.
309
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You can check it out, of course.
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We have to mention it again.
311
00:18:44,765 --> 00:18:51,724
And I think also people can reach out to you,
of course, and get in contact, of course.
312
00:18:51,724 --> 00:18:54,259
And I have another question for you.
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Can you share some strategies from your book,
"Living Well with Chronic Illness," that have
314
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been particularly impactful for your readers?
315
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:05,599
Yes.
316
00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:06,099
Absolutely.
317
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,140
So, you know, we do get we get some wonderful
feedback.
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00:19:11,174 --> 00:19:16,775
And, yeah, I think I mean, what we one thing we
do in the book is we do take you through in the
319
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book creating your own journal.
320
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So we teach you how to do a journaling
practice, how to use a journal.
321
00:19:22,450 --> 00:19:24,869
And the journal can be really useful.
322
00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:27,970
It's not necessarily an aesthetic journal.
323
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It doesn't necessarily have the kind of journal
spreads that you would necessarily wanna put on
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Instagram.
325
00:19:32,850 --> 00:19:37,894
But it's around having something where we put
down.
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00:19:37,894 --> 00:19:43,015
We kind of we we we kind of give a rest in
place as such, Kristoffer and Coloristic, one
327
00:19:43,015 --> 00:19:46,934
of my teachers' teachers calls it, to the
things that that that we struggle with.
328
00:19:46,934 --> 00:19:50,940
So, I love I love the the journaling taking
through.
329
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:55,579
And I guess one of the other ones that I really
appreciate, because we have exercises all
330
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throughout the book.
331
00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:58,859
And somebody asked me what my favorite exercise
is.
332
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And I do I do love the plates exercise.
333
00:20:02,139 --> 00:20:03,579
It's actually the last one in the book.
334
00:20:03,579 --> 00:20:05,039
I really, really like the plates.
335
00:20:05,134 --> 00:20:07,055
I put that exercise in every chapter.
336
00:20:07,055 --> 00:20:08,335
I I want to have it everywhere.
337
00:20:08,335 --> 00:20:10,414
When I have a favorite thing, I I write it.
338
00:20:10,414 --> 00:20:11,775
Like, I put it everywhere.
339
00:20:11,775 --> 00:20:15,855
And then my my editor, who's very talented,
says, but you can't mention it in every
340
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chapter.
341
00:20:16,174 --> 00:20:16,894
And I'm going, yeah.
342
00:20:16,894 --> 00:20:17,134
Okay.
343
00:20:17,134 --> 00:20:17,715
I know.
344
00:20:17,775 --> 00:20:27,180
So, I love the plates exercise where we talk
about how we attune to what we're holding and
345
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how much capacity we have.
346
00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:32,779
Because often when we're trying to do a new
thing, we want to be well enough to do it.
347
00:20:32,779 --> 00:20:38,375
We want to have the capacity to do it, but we
don't necessarily know because for many of us,
348
00:20:38,434 --> 00:20:43,394
we struggle to be very much in touch with our
bodies or embodied in our bodies because our
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bodies are perhaps where there's a lot of
chronic pain or perhaps if you think maybe
350
00:20:47,555 --> 00:20:51,740
somebody has a car accident and maybe
afterwards, they're scared to drive past the
351
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accident site.
352
00:20:52,859 --> 00:20:53,099
Right?
353
00:20:53,099 --> 00:20:54,559
That's where the accident happened.
354
00:20:54,859 --> 00:20:55,920
The bad thing happened.
355
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:58,480
But what if your body is where the bad things
happened?
356
00:20:58,940 --> 00:21:04,615
How do you stay in touch in relationship and
present at the site of so much pain and trauma?
357
00:21:04,835 --> 00:21:09,234
So many people will check out or clinically
dissociate to something to a greater or lesser
358
00:21:09,234 --> 00:21:09,734
extent.
359
00:21:10,035 --> 00:21:11,875
And we don't say not to do this.
360
00:21:11,875 --> 00:21:13,335
It's a survival mechanism.
361
00:21:13,554 --> 00:21:18,279
But what we talk about is how we can then still
not overload ourselves.
362
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:21,880
So what happens is you're checked out, you
don't really know kind of how you're doing, but
363
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:22,919
you're used to that.
364
00:21:22,919 --> 00:21:25,000
You just kind of carry on.
365
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,919
And then maybe you have to do something big
like another medical procedure or something
366
00:21:28,919 --> 00:21:31,259
you're excited, even something you're happy
about.
367
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:38,815
But you aren't really able to assess how many
spoons, the Spoon Theory, say you have or how
368
00:21:38,815 --> 00:21:44,575
full your energetic battery is or how calm you
are, how close it would take you to becoming
369
00:21:44,575 --> 00:21:49,240
overwhelmed or overloaded or starting to cry,
and none of that's wrong to do.
370
00:21:49,539 --> 00:21:53,700
But if you've got, say, a doctor's appointment
that you've waited 18 months for, you don't
371
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,859
want to spend it crying and unable to
articulate what you want to say because you've
372
00:21:57,859 --> 00:22:00,200
waited 18 months and you need to actually use
this appointment.
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00:22:00,339 --> 00:22:09,234
So we use the plates exercise to navigate, to
find out how and where we are, and then we can
374
00:22:09,234 --> 00:22:14,515
pull in the tools we need to be able to
actually support ourselves to be able to do
375
00:22:14,515 --> 00:22:15,554
that doctor's appointment.
376
00:22:15,554 --> 00:22:16,835
And, again, we have a whole chapter.
377
00:22:16,835 --> 00:22:21,059
And, actually, I think some people's favorite
chapter at the moment is how to talk to your
378
00:22:21,059 --> 00:22:26,500
medics, how to prep for the appointment, how to
navigate conversations with medical
379
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:26,980
professionals.
380
00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:29,379
We've also interviewed medical professionals in
it.
381
00:22:29,379 --> 00:22:32,119
Some of whom are chronically ill who give their
tips.
382
00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:36,565
So, yeah, I think the plates exercise—I use it
all the time, the plates exercise.
383
00:22:37,025 --> 00:22:37,505
Oh, wow.
384
00:22:37,505 --> 00:22:38,945
Thank you so much for sharing.
385
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:40,625
And, again, I learned so much.
386
00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:46,305
First of all, you compared or you named it
resting place, your journal, and I never heard
387
00:22:46,305 --> 00:22:46,920
this before.
388
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:54,759
But I can understand because this is where you
lay down your concerns at rest.
389
00:22:54,759 --> 00:22:55,240
Right?
390
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,700
And it's so beautiful.
391
00:22:56,759 --> 00:22:57,720
You say, oh, yeah.
392
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,380
You can I can deal with you later, for example.
393
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,539
This is something I came across.
394
00:23:03,154 --> 00:23:07,875
You don't want to deal with your problems, then
you can write it down and deal with them later.
395
00:23:07,875 --> 00:23:13,894
Then you mentioned the accident where you had
an, not you, but when people have an accident,
396
00:23:14,275 --> 00:23:18,375
and then they are afraid of driving past that
place.
397
00:23:18,769 --> 00:23:23,970
And I thought about a feeling when you have,
when you yeah.
398
00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:25,589
You talked about the body.
399
00:23:25,649 --> 00:23:30,149
What is when the location is the body, and what
are you doing with it?
400
00:23:30,369 --> 00:23:35,734
So when I think about you had a, like a trauma
and a bad feeling and this is also in your
401
00:23:35,734 --> 00:23:40,795
body, if you are afraid, I have to laugh
because of this, because I understood
402
00:23:41,015 --> 00:23:43,654
something, you know, and I'm so grateful for
that.
403
00:23:43,654 --> 00:23:47,015
So you have a bad feeling and you avoid feeling
it.
404
00:23:47,015 --> 00:23:47,490
Right?
405
00:23:47,569 --> 00:23:50,549
And this is also an exercise to not be afraid.
406
00:23:50,690 --> 00:23:51,990
This is what I understood.
407
00:23:52,049 --> 00:24:00,470
And, also, it is so important to learn how to
talk with your doctors or medical helpers
408
00:24:00,609 --> 00:24:09,355
because of all the words you don't understand
maybe or also how you behave, what are you
409
00:24:09,355 --> 00:24:13,034
afraid of asking questions because you are
afraid of the answer?
410
00:24:13,034 --> 00:24:16,894
For example, I think that this is all in your
book.
411
00:24:17,059 --> 00:24:18,099
I have a clue.
412
00:24:18,099 --> 00:24:21,220
It might be in your book, and I'm so happy for
that.
413
00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:21,539
Okay.
414
00:24:21,539 --> 00:24:23,480
I have another question for you.
415
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:23,940
Okay.
416
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:25,799
And I think it's our last one.
417
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:31,345
How do you balance your professional
commitments with self-care, and what advice
418
00:24:31,345 --> 00:24:34,164
would you give to others in similar roles?
419
00:24:35,345 --> 00:24:35,845
Okay.
420
00:24:36,144 --> 00:24:36,644
Lovely.
421
00:24:36,785 --> 00:24:37,684
Great question.
422
00:24:38,464 --> 00:24:45,320
So, yeah, for me, I, we do, again, we do
actually talk about this in the book.
423
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:55,000
So, what one of my teachers, Kelly Diels, who
we do also reference, talks about, how we
424
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:02,214
build, little little little machines, little
kind of systems in our lives so that we don't
425
00:25:02,214 --> 00:25:04,474
end up feeling overworked like machines.
426
00:25:04,934 --> 00:25:07,355
So I do a lot of batch working.
427
00:25:07,414 --> 00:25:11,494
So, for example, if I was filming content for
social media, I would get set up.
428
00:25:11,494 --> 00:25:14,869
I would do the lighting setup, and I would film
several at once.
429
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:19,509
Then I would kind of have another session where
I would schedule a couple of weeks in advance.
430
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:25,330
So I tend to batch things a lot because often
for me, the energy is in getting set up and
431
00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:27,404
getting into the mode to do the one thing.
432
00:25:28,525 --> 00:25:34,285
If I then do it and rest, do it and rest, do it
and rest, that's much easier than what we call
433
00:25:34,285 --> 00:25:38,205
task switching, which is often difficult for
many neurodivergent people, and I'm also
434
00:25:38,205 --> 00:25:39,164
neurodivergent.
435
00:25:39,164 --> 00:25:43,019
So it's when you kind of switch from doing this
one thing to then doing another thing to then
436
00:25:43,019 --> 00:25:43,980
doing another thing.
437
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:46,480
That could often take a lot more executive
capacity.
438
00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:52,400
So for me, if I batch my work, that saves on a
lot of energy.
439
00:25:52,815 --> 00:25:57,315
I do also have, you know, we're talking in the
book about creating your own bespoke
440
00:25:57,375 --> 00:25:59,154
personalized healing roadmap.
441
00:25:59,375 --> 00:26:01,714
So I, of course, have my own healing roadmap.
442
00:26:02,095 --> 00:26:05,454
And I, you know, work on that and kind of take
care of myself.
443
00:26:05,454 --> 00:26:06,960
My self-care through that.
444
00:26:07,919 --> 00:26:13,460
I do do a lot of things in advance because I'm
disabled and I'm a therapist and a writer.
445
00:26:13,679 --> 00:26:17,619
And I care for my partner who's also disabled,
and we have three rescue dogs.
446
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,355
And so, you know, I talk about how we set up in
the book systems and routines that we say you
447
00:26:24,355 --> 00:26:27,894
let the systems hold stuff so that you don't
have to.
448
00:26:29,075 --> 00:26:29,554
Yes.
449
00:26:30,034 --> 00:26:31,474
I felt like it's another part of the question.
450
00:26:31,474 --> 00:26:33,414
What was the did did I miss a bit?
451
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:33,900
Yes.
452
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,940
It was totally, and I thank you so much.
453
00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:45,259
And what I realized when we emailed before our
interview was that you implemented some, I
454
00:26:45,259 --> 00:26:47,684
think, bots or I don't know how you call this.
455
00:26:47,684 --> 00:26:52,345
It was an automatic email responder, and it was
well explained.
456
00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:55,365
And so I never saw this before in that way.
457
00:26:55,365 --> 00:27:03,589
You know, it is very nice to receive emails
from you in preparation as well or to confirm.
458
00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:05,349
It's a different way.
459
00:27:05,809 --> 00:27:06,849
So thank you so much.
460
00:27:06,849 --> 00:27:12,194
And this leads me also to say when you want to
reach out to Grace, please reach out.
461
00:27:12,194 --> 00:27:13,794
She's amazing, of course.
462
00:27:13,794 --> 00:27:17,414
And then you receive those beautiful emails as
well.
463
00:27:17,554 --> 00:27:22,454
So now it's time for your last thoughts to the
audience, please.
464
00:27:23,634 --> 00:27:24,355
Thank you.
465
00:27:24,355 --> 00:27:24,994
Thank you.
466
00:27:24,994 --> 00:27:32,380
So, you know, really, I guess, what I wanted to
kind of say as we close is that if you're
467
00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:36,880
struggling in health care, if you're struggling
with your chronic illness, if you're struggling
468
00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:45,204
in wellness or trying to do the latest diet or
exercise regime or fashionable thing, what if
469
00:27:45,204 --> 00:27:46,345
you haven't failed?
470
00:27:46,805 --> 00:27:52,744
What if you're struggling, but it's okay that
if we need to make wellness and health care
471
00:27:53,045 --> 00:27:54,025
work for you?
472
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,179
You're not alone in this.
473
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,419
You're not wrong if you find cookie-cutter
plans haven't worked for you.
474
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:09,015
I believe we are more unique, messy,
struggling, fantastic, brilliant, human than
475
00:28:09,015 --> 00:28:12,234
many of the media has made us out to be.
476
00:28:12,295 --> 00:28:18,695
And we need to work with ways of being and ways
of taking care of ourselves that welcome and
477
00:28:18,695 --> 00:28:19,914
embrace that reality.
478
00:28:20,455 --> 00:28:23,515
And because of that, I believe in us, and I
believe in our possibilities.
479
00:28:25,139 --> 00:28:25,379
Wow.
480
00:28:25,379 --> 00:28:26,659
I totally agree.
481
00:28:26,659 --> 00:28:29,079
I thank you so much for our interview.
482
00:28:29,779 --> 00:28:30,599
Thank you.
483
00:28:30,899 --> 00:28:31,799
Thank you.
484
00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:34,440
I see you in the next episode.
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,859
Hello, and welcome, Inspired podcast community.
2
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:07,540
This is your new episode.
3
00:00:07,599 --> 00:00:12,019
My name is Caroline, and my today's guest is
Grace Quantock.
4
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:12,719
And I'm
5
00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:16,434
so happy that you are here and said yes to our
interview.
6
00:00:16,434 --> 00:00:18,454
How are you doing today?
7
00:00:19,394 --> 00:00:19,954
Thank you.
8
00:00:19,954 --> 00:00:21,554
I'm really excited today.
9
00:00:21,554 --> 00:00:23,234
I'm so glad to be here.
10
00:00:23,635 --> 00:00:28,730
I'm actually pretty excited today because,
actually, the book is in a newspaper.
11
00:00:29,349 --> 00:00:30,469
It's in a national newspaper.
12
00:00:30,469 --> 00:00:35,189
And what's really exciting is in the online
version, they included pictures of me with my
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00:00:35,189 --> 00:00:37,210
rescue dog, one of my rescue dogs.
14
00:00:37,269 --> 00:00:37,590
So I'm
15
00:00:37,829 --> 00:00:39,030
Oh, I love that.
16
00:00:39,030 --> 00:00:41,744
And I see your book in the background, the
cover.
17
00:00:41,825 --> 00:00:48,564
And I also can tell you that I added it to the
Amazon list I created for all my podcast
18
00:00:48,625 --> 00:00:49,125
guests.
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00:00:49,184 --> 00:00:54,304
So it's already there, and I'm so excited about
talking about that.
20
00:00:54,304 --> 00:01:00,769
Of course, I would like to introduce you to the
audience first, and you are an award-winning
21
00:01:00,769 --> 00:01:08,170
anti-oppressive psychotherapeutic counselor,
speaker, and author based in South Wales with
22
00:01:08,170 --> 00:01:10,269
over 15 years of experience.
23
00:01:10,569 --> 00:01:17,015
You support marginalized individuals living
with chronic pain, illness, and complex trauma.
24
00:01:17,314 --> 00:01:22,754
Recognized for her groundbreaking work, Grace
is the Future Young Leader of Wales award
25
00:01:22,754 --> 00:01:28,435
recipient and has been featured in major
publications like The Guardian and The Times of
26
00:01:28,435 --> 00:01:28,935
London.
27
00:01:29,209 --> 00:01:35,229
As an outspoken critic of the bootstrap
wellness narrative, she advocates for systemic
28
00:01:35,369 --> 00:01:39,789
change in health care and has recently
published her book, and you talked about it,
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00:01:39,849 --> 00:01:42,109
Living Well with Chronic Illness.
30
00:01:42,445 --> 00:01:48,445
Grace's unique perspective is shaped by her own
experience with chronic illness, fueling her
31
00:01:48,445 --> 00:01:51,905
mission to help others thrive on their own
terms.
32
00:01:51,965 --> 00:01:56,000
Welcome to the Inspired podcast, Grace
Quantock.
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00:01:57,260 --> 00:01:58,240
Thank you.
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00:01:58,859 --> 00:02:00,460
So happy to meet you.
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00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:00,859
Okay.
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00:02:00,859 --> 00:02:06,939
My first question to you, how has your personal
experience with chronic illness shaped your
37
00:02:06,939 --> 00:02:09,905
approach to counseling and advocacy?
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00:02:11,805 --> 00:02:12,305
Yes.
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00:02:12,365 --> 00:02:18,205
So, you know, really a lot of what has shaped
that is, you know, when I was doing clinical
40
00:02:18,205 --> 00:02:22,525
training, they actually had I mean, I'm I'm,
you know, really hoping it's better now because
41
00:02:22,525 --> 00:02:26,169
there has been, you know, I trained kind of,
you know, a little while ago.
42
00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:34,729
But, they did a lesson, a series on working
with difference.
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00:02:35,109 --> 00:02:42,925
And that was where they talked about things
like illness or disability or LGBTQIA+ things.
44
00:02:43,224 --> 00:02:46,905
And so, you know, I came up to those lessons
and I said, oh, great.
45
00:02:46,905 --> 00:02:49,564
Are you gonna teach me to work with nondisabled
men?
46
00:02:49,705 --> 00:02:53,979
Because, like, that's that's who's other from
me because I'm a disabled woman.
47
00:02:53,979 --> 00:02:56,879
So I kinda said, like, you know, is is is that
what I'm gonna learn?
48
00:02:57,099 --> 00:02:59,659
And they were kind of like, no.
49
00:02:59,659 --> 00:03:06,560
We're we're gonna teach people how to work with
disabled people and LGBTQIA+ people and and,
50
00:03:07,314 --> 00:03:08,034
people of color.
51
00:03:08,034 --> 00:03:08,675
I'm like, hold on.
52
00:03:08,675 --> 00:03:09,235
So it's hold on.
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00:03:09,235 --> 00:03:09,474
Hold on.
54
00:03:09,474 --> 00:03:10,115
Hold on.
55
00:03:10,115 --> 00:03:14,215
You're making this default, and you're actually
calling us other.
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00:03:14,275 --> 00:03:18,915
What would have been really interesting would
have been to check in around how we work with
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00:03:18,915 --> 00:03:23,990
that which we perceive as other from us or that
which is unfamiliar from us.
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00:03:24,210 --> 00:03:29,090
So, you know, as I was kind of going through
the training, I knew there were a lot of spaces
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00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:33,090
where things needed to be, I guess, a lot more
nuanced.
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00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:39,135
You know, quite often, I feel like therapy has
been, you know, really, really helpful for me
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00:03:39,135 --> 00:03:40,814
as a disabled woman with chronic illness.
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00:03:40,814 --> 00:03:41,935
Of course, I am a therapist.
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00:03:41,935 --> 00:03:45,314
I work with clients, and I actually specialize
in complexity.
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00:03:45,455 --> 00:03:46,995
So I work with complex trauma.
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00:03:47,055 --> 00:03:48,835
People have got multiple marginalized
identities.
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00:03:49,534 --> 00:03:57,210
But where I struggled is often therapy,
psychodynamic therapy, one of my trainings,
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00:03:57,349 --> 00:04:00,810
traditionally approaches chronic illness very
much in isolation.
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00:04:01,349 --> 00:04:03,770
So it orients the issues in our body.
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00:04:04,034 --> 00:04:08,594
So it says like, oh, are you, you know, you're
struggling because you're suffering or because
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00:04:08,594 --> 00:04:09,235
you're in pain.
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00:04:09,235 --> 00:04:11,014
But that might well be part of it.
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00:04:11,235 --> 00:04:13,155
But it's not as simple as that.
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00:04:13,155 --> 00:04:17,574
It's not only our history and our childhood and
our experiences.
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00:04:18,409 --> 00:04:22,569
I love what there's a Jungian analyst, James
Hillman, and he said, you know, sometimes
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00:04:22,569 --> 00:04:28,089
therapy can make every problem a subjective
inner problem, but that's not where problems
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00:04:28,089 --> 00:04:28,810
come from.
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00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:33,805
They come from the environment, the cities, the
economy, the racism, the architecture, the
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00:04:33,805 --> 00:04:35,665
school systems, capitalism, exploitation.
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00:04:37,084 --> 00:04:44,605
So if you turn all that on you and only look as
though you were the one who's wrong, it can be
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00:04:44,605 --> 00:04:45,345
very isolating.
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00:04:45,485 --> 00:04:49,199
Whereas, actually, most people with chronic
illness struggle with lack of accessible
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00:04:49,259 --> 00:04:53,980
environments, with the fact that a lot of
research isn't where we need it to be.
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00:04:53,980 --> 00:04:59,199
And we perhaps don't have the treatments or the
kind of symptom management that we need.
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00:04:59,419 --> 00:05:01,774
And you're not alone in that.
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00:05:01,834 --> 00:05:07,115
So in my work, what chronic illness has helped
me to learn as a therapist is really look at
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00:05:07,115 --> 00:05:13,194
the systemic and the community as well as your
individual experience.
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00:05:13,194 --> 00:05:15,930
So how did your parents treat illness when you
were a child?
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00:05:16,009 --> 00:05:19,069
How did you see illness and pain growing up?
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00:05:19,129 --> 00:05:26,089
That's important, but it's one factor in the
wider community and systemic experience that
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00:05:26,089 --> 00:05:26,990
impacts us.
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00:05:27,449 --> 00:05:27,850
Wow.
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00:05:27,850 --> 00:05:28,509
I understand.
93
00:05:28,810 --> 00:05:31,425
It's your systemic approach, of course.
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00:05:31,664 --> 00:05:37,584
And it's not only the, you know, it is easy to
say, yeah, you have an illness or something, a
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00:05:37,584 --> 00:05:43,044
disorder, and then this is your excuse, not
only for the people, but also for the
96
00:05:43,264 --> 00:05:48,100
psychotherapist, for example, for the helpers,
and they this is like labeling.
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00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:52,020
And then you don't see really the solution.
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00:05:52,319 --> 00:05:52,819
Right?
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00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:58,020
And sometimes there's actually an informal term
called a rubbish bin diagnosis.
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00:05:58,754 --> 00:06:03,735
And some diagnoses are stigmatized like this.
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00:06:03,875 --> 00:06:09,235
And so some professionals, because of the lack
of support in their training, because of the
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00:06:09,235 --> 00:06:13,250
ableism that still exists in health care and
professional trainings, unfortunately.
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00:06:13,870 --> 00:06:18,029
Because of the one that has existed in the
past, even if it hopefully is changing now, it
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00:06:18,029 --> 00:06:20,610
has still trained people that are in practice
today.
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00:06:20,910 --> 00:06:25,935
And so what sometimes happens is people will
look at a newly presenting symptom, and they
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00:06:25,935 --> 00:06:28,514
will go, oh, it's just one of your preexisting
conditions.
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00:06:29,295 --> 00:06:35,055
I talk about this, actually, in the book where
I presented with a new symptom that turned out
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00:06:35,055 --> 00:06:36,899
to be a very serious neurological event.
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00:06:37,139 --> 00:06:40,259
But at the beginning, the neurologist went, oh,
it's probably just one of your preexisting,
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00:06:40,419 --> 00:06:41,879
it's this preexisting condition.
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00:06:42,819 --> 00:06:48,339
And I went, well, that condition does have a
lot of symptoms, so you could kind of ascribe a
112
00:06:48,339 --> 00:06:49,879
lot of things to it probably.
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00:06:50,180 --> 00:06:52,534
But this actually wasn't one of them.
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00:06:52,534 --> 00:06:57,115
So I really was able, you know, I was able
actually to challenge him and say, well, that's
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00:06:57,735 --> 00:07:01,194
the first time that this illness has ever
presented with this symptom.
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00:07:01,814 --> 00:07:05,274
Like, do we think that it's changing the
disease?
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00:07:05,659 --> 00:07:07,199
Which, of course, isn't true.
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00:07:07,579 --> 00:07:11,199
And, you know, I was able to kind of then get
an MRI and get some treatment.
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00:07:11,419 --> 00:07:14,300
But sometimes people will look.
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00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:18,479
And the other thing that can also happen is
when you experience the intersection of ableism
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00:07:18,620 --> 00:07:19,439
and ageism.
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00:07:20,024 --> 00:07:25,944
So it's when, you know, somebody will kind of
go, well, you know, you're doing really well
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00:07:25,944 --> 00:07:31,064
for a wheelchair user or you're doing really
well for a chronically ill person or for
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00:07:31,064 --> 00:07:32,444
somebody of your age.
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00:07:33,079 --> 00:07:34,360
And that doesn't take into account.
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00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,160
So what if, like, you were at a certain level,
your symptoms, experience, or capacity or
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00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,540
mobility was a certain level and now it's
drastically changed?
128
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:49,125
If the medic's expectation is the helpless
expectation, is that, well, you're not gonna
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00:07:49,125 --> 00:07:53,285
have a good quality of life, then they possibly
won't investigate fully.
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00:07:53,285 --> 00:07:55,925
You know, I had a psychiatrist once who said,
look at me.
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00:07:55,925 --> 00:07:56,404
Look at you.
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00:07:56,404 --> 00:07:57,365
Of course, you're depressed.
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00:07:57,365 --> 00:07:58,504
I said, excuse me.
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00:07:59,125 --> 00:08:00,269
And she said, look at you.
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00:08:00,349 --> 00:08:01,069
You're 28.
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00:08:01,069 --> 00:08:03,310
You have to be pushed around in a wheelchair by
your boyfriend.
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00:08:03,310 --> 00:08:04,529
Who'd want your life?
138
00:08:05,149 --> 00:08:07,629
And I was like, okay.
139
00:08:07,629 --> 00:08:09,870
You've just it was actually my husband.
140
00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:14,245
But, anyway, you've actually just shown me
really clearly that you're not a safe person
141
00:08:14,245 --> 00:08:17,384
for me, and you don't have the expertise or the
knowledge to treat me.
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00:08:18,485 --> 00:08:23,625
She was kind of overwhelmed or over not
overwhelmed is not the right word.
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00:08:23,764 --> 00:08:30,560
Like, she was not the right person, and she was
incapable or incompetent as well.
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00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:33,259
Well, I mean, I think you're right.
145
00:08:33,259 --> 00:08:35,420
I think she's probably very overloaded, maybe.
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00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:37,779
I don't wanna criticize her personally.
147
00:08:37,779 --> 00:08:42,784
I mean, I have absolute understanding of how
difficult the mental health system is.
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00:08:42,784 --> 00:08:46,865
You know, she did also actually take, you know,
she asked what I was doing to support myself.
149
00:08:46,865 --> 00:08:48,644
And I told her the books I was reading.
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00:08:48,704 --> 00:08:51,424
And bless her, she wrote them down to share
with her other patients.
151
00:08:51,424 --> 00:08:57,769
You know, she obviously did want to make a
difference, but she was holding.
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00:08:57,830 --> 00:09:04,169
She had been, she had absorbed somewhere along
the line these very ableist views.
153
00:09:04,389 --> 00:09:07,370
The idea that life with disability isn't worth
living.
154
00:09:07,830 --> 00:09:13,904
The idea that it would be impossible to be
happy living a life like mine.
155
00:09:14,524 --> 00:09:19,585
And none of that's true, but it's certainly how
we often see chronic illness and disability
156
00:09:19,725 --> 00:09:20,865
portrayed in media.
157
00:09:21,325 --> 00:09:24,304
So, of course, we will absorb these views.
158
00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:29,679
But as helpers, part of our professional role
is noticing when we have absorbed these
159
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:35,360
prejudicial views and working to overcome them
and dismiss them and not let them impact
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00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:35,860
patients.
161
00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:36,879
Yes.
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00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:37,620
I understand.
163
00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:40,875
So that means it all starts with you.
164
00:09:40,875 --> 00:09:48,875
So the person who wants to help others has to
investigate first the prejudices and the
165
00:09:49,195 --> 00:09:50,794
limitations, let's say.
166
00:09:50,794 --> 00:09:53,855
And if so, just question, is it true?
167
00:09:54,049 --> 00:09:59,990
And then be a little bit tolerant, but I also
think the word is not the right word.
168
00:10:00,529 --> 00:10:06,289
We talk about professional persons here, and we
never know.
169
00:10:06,289 --> 00:10:06,689
You know?
170
00:10:06,689 --> 00:10:12,894
Maybe she had a bad day, but she also, what I
understood is, she had good intentions to help.
171
00:10:13,514 --> 00:10:14,715
And it's tricky, isn't it?
172
00:10:14,715 --> 00:10:18,495
Because she may have had a bad day, but yet she
could have really harmed the patient.
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00:10:18,634 --> 00:10:22,175
She may have had good intentions, and yet her
behavior was still harmful.
174
00:10:22,490 --> 00:10:23,870
So, it's really tricky.
175
00:10:23,929 --> 00:10:28,649
I think one thing I always encourage people to
do, all of us including professionals, is to
176
00:10:28,649 --> 00:10:32,669
really ask ourselves: Where am I orienting the
issue?
177
00:10:33,289 --> 00:10:35,370
So, where am I locating the problem?
178
00:10:35,370 --> 00:10:40,304
When I'm speaking to somebody about something
they're struggling with, am I locating it in
179
00:10:40,304 --> 00:10:41,605
them and their body?
180
00:10:42,465 --> 00:10:44,865
Or am I locating it somewhere else?
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00:10:44,865 --> 00:10:49,904
Like in the, so for example, you know,
sometimes people will talk about, oh,
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00:10:49,904 --> 00:10:52,325
healthiness, long term, and weight.
183
00:10:52,544 --> 00:10:57,480
Now a lot of this includes a huge amount of
anti-fat bias, which is a great problem.
184
00:10:57,779 --> 00:11:02,500
But what people will often talk about, I
noticed, is they will orient the issue in the
185
00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:03,000
individuals.
186
00:11:03,379 --> 00:11:09,375
So they will treat people not being able to
access the right cultural food for them, the
187
00:11:09,375 --> 00:11:14,195
right food for their conditions, whatever it
might be, enough food, affordable food.
188
00:11:14,334 --> 00:11:19,214
They somehow treat it as an individual problem
and as though if people just kind of made more
189
00:11:19,214 --> 00:11:22,889
of an effort in the kitchen, quote unquote,
that somehow everything would be better.
190
00:11:23,029 --> 00:11:25,990
And I remember being in a meeting once and
somebody was, they were talking about what they
191
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:29,850
called, quote unquote, junk food, which, again,
I think is a very stigmatizing term.
192
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:33,670
But and I put my hand up and I just, and this
is quite a few years ago now.
193
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:39,694
I said, I love that you think I am that
powerful, that the multimillion-dollar
194
00:11:39,694 --> 00:11:44,834
marketing budget of some of these companies is
no match for my willpower.
195
00:11:45,534 --> 00:11:50,754
And that I can just overcome the fact that my
kitchen is not adapted, is not accessible.
196
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:54,810
The place I live, they couldn't do it.
197
00:11:54,950 --> 00:11:59,129
So I love that you think that I can just
transcend all these difficulties.
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00:11:59,269 --> 00:12:04,310
But the fact that food companies hire
psychologists and have huge marketing budgets,
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huge campaigns for things, but you think the
solution to the fact that they're closing down
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leisure centers because they can't afford to
keep them open, so there's no safe place to
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exercise, for example, or many people
experience street harassment as we're disabled.
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You think the solution to all of these systemic
issues is just for me to try harder.
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I love that you think I'm that powerful, but I
hate to break it to you.
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I'm actually only human.
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So I'm actually not powerful enough to override
multiple systemic difficulties.
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And so I just always ask, you know, where are
we locating it?
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And if you are locating it in the individual,
who is that convenient for?
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Does that let anybody off the hook?
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Does it kind of go, oh, well, we don't need to
make the park accessible for disabled children
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because they just should not be disabled or
something.
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You know what?
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What happens when we locate it in the
individual?
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I understand.
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It's like putting yourself over others, like,
like, you know, something from from a society
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or a company as well, and they they might have
the perspective to serving people with their,
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let's say, junk food, but it isn't healthy at
all.
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And then everyone is wondering why we are
overweight or not healthy anymore, and we have
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to take all those pills.
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Thank you so much for sharing.
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I think I understood your approach to that.
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Okay.
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Of course, I have another question.
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What motivated you to challenge the bootstrap
wellness narrative, and what changes would you
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like to see in the health care system?
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Such a good question.
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So, you know, I for me, I guess, with the
bootstrap wellness narrative, really I for
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myself personally and for my clients I got I
struggled with seeing books, media out there
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that were very prescriptive and very
aspirational and very aspirational in certain
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ways.
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Right?
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So they were aspirational towards they always
focused on, an aesthetic that was thin, that
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was had an antifat bias in it that promoted a
certain type of, like, of of healthiness, a
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kind of an aesthetic of health.
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Because actually, you mentioned you mentioned
diet.
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What's healthy for me might be very different
to somebody who has a baby and is nursing that
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baby.
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Might be very different to somebody who is
working on an oil rig or somebody who's doing
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manual labor all day.
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Might be very different to an Indigenous person
living in Turtle Island on their, on there is a
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their nation land.
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You know, it's gonna be all very different.
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It's gonna have different cultural backgrounds.
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It's gonna have different access to foods.
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It's all gonna be different in different ways.
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But I didn't see any of that.
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What I saw were things that were very
aspirational towards a certain
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one-size-fits-all narrative.
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And I felt like it ignored my lived experience
and the lived experience of the kind of people
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I work with.
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And so, you know, I thought about what I call,
you know, the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative.
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And I also talked about compulsive miracle cure
culture.
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And, you know, I've come up with these terms of
the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative to really just
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name what I see happening.
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So the Bootstrap Wellness Narrative is an
approach to healing that is individualistic,
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perfectionist, and it tells us that we can and
we should heal alone and that if we try hard
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enough, we can have a quote-unquote normal
life.
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But in that, it assumes we all have access to
the same resources like wealth, fresh food,
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transport, safe housing, green space,
community.
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It assumes that everybody has access to these
things in the same ways, which we don't.
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And then it ignores or makes invisible systemic
inequalities.
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And it tells you, you can do it.
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You have all the power.
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You can change your life, which sounds
empowering.
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Right?
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To say, you can do it.
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I did it.
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You can do it if you try hard enough.
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Just follow my plan.
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But here's the thing.
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If you don't have access to the same resources,
if you don't have the same conditions or the
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same body or the same experiences as that
person, their plan may well not work for you.
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And so then, actually, what seemed very
empowering at the beginning is actually hugely
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disempowering because it tells you you have all
the power.
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You can do it if you try.
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And so maybe, like me, you try.
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And then it doesn't work.
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And you start thinking, what did I do wrong?
278
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I tried.
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What did I do wrong?
280
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I did exactly what they did.
281
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I, oh, I tried to do exactly.
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I did everything I could.
283
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Why didn't it work for me?
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What's wrong with my body?
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And so I think when we tell people they have
all the power when that isn't true, that's
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actually very disempowering over time.
287
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It feels empowering at the beginning.
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But what in this work in the book we talk about
is discerning, is separating out the bits that
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we do have control over and what we can impact
and the bits that we don't have control over
290
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and how we're gonna navigate living without
that control.
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It's more nuanced work.
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It's trickier.
293
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It's not as kind of rah rah go go and saying,
you can do it.
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You can be like me if you just try and buy my
course 99 easy payments of $99 or whatever it
295
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might be.
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00:17:44,910 --> 00:17:46,914
Like, it's like, you know, people I sell
courses.
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00:17:46,914 --> 00:17:51,095
People can sell courses, but it's that promise
of, like, you can do it just like me.
298
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Well, I don't know.
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And I specifically do not say in the book the
medications I take, the diagnoses I have, or
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specifically what I do in my healing because it
may not be relevant to anybody else.
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I understand.
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00:18:06,819 --> 00:18:13,615
And it, it refers back to what you said earlier
about ask yourself where it is located or where
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you locate the problem.
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And you talked about the individual versus the
resources that we don't have access to, in the
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same way or the same manner, you said.
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00:18:26,669 --> 00:18:32,529
And, yeah, I love that because I understand
something here, and I learned something.
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Thank you so much about yeah.
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00:18:34,909 --> 00:18:40,944
So, yes, I'm so happy about that you published
the book, that it's out already.
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You can check it out, of course.
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We have to mention it again.
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And I think also people can reach out to you,
of course, and get in contact, of course.
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00:18:51,724 --> 00:18:54,259
And I have another question for you.
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Can you share some strategies from your book,
"Living Well with Chronic Illness," that have
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been particularly impactful for your readers?
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Yes.
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Absolutely.
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So, you know, we do get we get some wonderful
feedback.
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And, yeah, I think I mean, what we one thing we
do in the book is we do take you through in the
319
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book creating your own journal.
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So we teach you how to do a journaling
practice, how to use a journal.
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And the journal can be really useful.
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It's not necessarily an aesthetic journal.
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It doesn't necessarily have the kind of journal
spreads that you would necessarily wanna put on
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Instagram.
325
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But it's around having something where we put
down.
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We kind of we we we kind of give a rest in
place as such, Kristoffer and Coloristic, one
327
00:19:43,015 --> 00:19:46,934
of my teachers' teachers calls it, to the
things that that that we struggle with.
328
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So, I love I love the the journaling taking
through.
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And I guess one of the other ones that I really
appreciate, because we have exercises all
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throughout the book.
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And somebody asked me what my favorite exercise
is.
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And I do I do love the plates exercise.
333
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It's actually the last one in the book.
334
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I really, really like the plates.
335
00:20:05,134 --> 00:20:07,055
I put that exercise in every chapter.
336
00:20:07,055 --> 00:20:08,335
I I want to have it everywhere.
337
00:20:08,335 --> 00:20:10,414
When I have a favorite thing, I I write it.
338
00:20:10,414 --> 00:20:11,775
Like, I put it everywhere.
339
00:20:11,775 --> 00:20:15,855
And then my my editor, who's very talented,
says, but you can't mention it in every
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chapter.
341
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And I'm going, yeah.
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00:20:16,894 --> 00:20:17,134
Okay.
343
00:20:17,134 --> 00:20:17,715
I know.
344
00:20:17,775 --> 00:20:27,180
So, I love the plates exercise where we talk
about how we attune to what we're holding and
345
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how much capacity we have.
346
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Because often when we're trying to do a new
thing, we want to be well enough to do it.
347
00:20:32,779 --> 00:20:38,375
We want to have the capacity to do it, but we
don't necessarily know because for many of us,
348
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we struggle to be very much in touch with our
bodies or embodied in our bodies because our
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bodies are perhaps where there's a lot of
chronic pain or perhaps if you think maybe
350
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somebody has a car accident and maybe
afterwards, they're scared to drive past the
351
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accident site.
352
00:20:52,859 --> 00:20:53,099
Right?
353
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That's where the accident happened.
354
00:20:54,859 --> 00:20:55,920
The bad thing happened.
355
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:58,480
But what if your body is where the bad things
happened?
356
00:20:58,940 --> 00:21:04,615
How do you stay in touch in relationship and
present at the site of so much pain and trauma?
357
00:21:04,835 --> 00:21:09,234
So many people will check out or clinically
dissociate to something to a greater or lesser
358
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extent.
359
00:21:10,035 --> 00:21:11,875
And we don't say not to do this.
360
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It's a survival mechanism.
361
00:21:13,554 --> 00:21:18,279
But what we talk about is how we can then still
not overload ourselves.
362
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:21,880
So what happens is you're checked out, you
don't really know kind of how you're doing, but
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you're used to that.
364
00:21:22,919 --> 00:21:25,000
You just kind of carry on.
365
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,919
And then maybe you have to do something big
like another medical procedure or something
366
00:21:28,919 --> 00:21:31,259
you're excited, even something you're happy
about.
367
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:38,815
But you aren't really able to assess how many
spoons, the Spoon Theory, say you have or how
368
00:21:38,815 --> 00:21:44,575
full your energetic battery is or how calm you
are, how close it would take you to becoming
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00:21:44,575 --> 00:21:49,240
overwhelmed or overloaded or starting to cry,
and none of that's wrong to do.
370
00:21:49,539 --> 00:21:53,700
But if you've got, say, a doctor's appointment
that you've waited 18 months for, you don't
371
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,859
want to spend it crying and unable to
articulate what you want to say because you've
372
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waited 18 months and you need to actually use
this appointment.
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00:22:00,339 --> 00:22:09,234
So we use the plates exercise to navigate, to
find out how and where we are, and then we can
374
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pull in the tools we need to be able to
actually support ourselves to be able to do
375
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that doctor's appointment.
376
00:22:15,554 --> 00:22:16,835
And, again, we have a whole chapter.
377
00:22:16,835 --> 00:22:21,059
And, actually, I think some people's favorite
chapter at the moment is how to talk to your
378
00:22:21,059 --> 00:22:26,500
medics, how to prep for the appointment, how to
navigate conversations with medical
379
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:26,980
professionals.
380
00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:29,379
We've also interviewed medical professionals in
it.
381
00:22:29,379 --> 00:22:32,119
Some of whom are chronically ill who give their
tips.
382
00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:36,565
So, yeah, I think the plates exercise—I use it
all the time, the plates exercise.
383
00:22:37,025 --> 00:22:37,505
Oh, wow.
384
00:22:37,505 --> 00:22:38,945
Thank you so much for sharing.
385
00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:40,625
And, again, I learned so much.
386
00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:46,305
First of all, you compared or you named it
resting place, your journal, and I never heard
387
00:22:46,305 --> 00:22:46,920
this before.
388
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:54,759
But I can understand because this is where you
lay down your concerns at rest.
389
00:22:54,759 --> 00:22:55,240
Right?
390
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,700
And it's so beautiful.
391
00:22:56,759 --> 00:22:57,720
You say, oh, yeah.
392
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,380
You can I can deal with you later, for example.
393
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,539
This is something I came across.
394
00:23:03,154 --> 00:23:07,875
You don't want to deal with your problems, then
you can write it down and deal with them later.
395
00:23:07,875 --> 00:23:13,894
Then you mentioned the accident where you had
an, not you, but when people have an accident,
396
00:23:14,275 --> 00:23:18,375
and then they are afraid of driving past that
place.
397
00:23:18,769 --> 00:23:23,970
And I thought about a feeling when you have,
when you yeah.
398
00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:25,589
You talked about the body.
399
00:23:25,649 --> 00:23:30,149
What is when the location is the body, and what
are you doing with it?
400
00:23:30,369 --> 00:23:35,734
So when I think about you had a, like a trauma
and a bad feeling and this is also in your
401
00:23:35,734 --> 00:23:40,795
body, if you are afraid, I have to laugh
because of this, because I understood
402
00:23:41,015 --> 00:23:43,654
something, you know, and I'm so grateful for
that.
403
00:23:43,654 --> 00:23:47,015
So you have a bad feeling and you avoid feeling
it.
404
00:23:47,015 --> 00:23:47,490
Right?
405
00:23:47,569 --> 00:23:50,549
And this is also an exercise to not be afraid.
406
00:23:50,690 --> 00:23:51,990
This is what I understood.
407
00:23:52,049 --> 00:24:00,470
And, also, it is so important to learn how to
talk with your doctors or medical helpers
408
00:24:00,609 --> 00:24:09,355
because of all the words you don't understand
maybe or also how you behave, what are you
409
00:24:09,355 --> 00:24:13,034
afraid of asking questions because you are
afraid of the answer?
410
00:24:13,034 --> 00:24:16,894
For example, I think that this is all in your
book.
411
00:24:17,059 --> 00:24:18,099
I have a clue.
412
00:24:18,099 --> 00:24:21,220
It might be in your book, and I'm so happy for
that.
413
00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:21,539
Okay.
414
00:24:21,539 --> 00:24:23,480
I have another question for you.
415
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:23,940
Okay.
416
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:25,799
And I think it's our last one.
417
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:31,345
How do you balance your professional
commitments with self-care, and what advice
418
00:24:31,345 --> 00:24:34,164
would you give to others in similar roles?
419
00:24:35,345 --> 00:24:35,845
Okay.
420
00:24:36,144 --> 00:24:36,644
Lovely.
421
00:24:36,785 --> 00:24:37,684
Great question.
422
00:24:38,464 --> 00:24:45,320
So, yeah, for me, I, we do, again, we do
actually talk about this in the book.
423
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:55,000
So, what one of my teachers, Kelly Diels, who
we do also reference, talks about, how we
424
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:02,214
build, little little little machines, little
kind of systems in our lives so that we don't
425
00:25:02,214 --> 00:25:04,474
end up feeling overworked like machines.
426
00:25:04,934 --> 00:25:07,355
So I do a lot of batch working.
427
00:25:07,414 --> 00:25:11,494
So, for example, if I was filming content for
social media, I would get set up.
428
00:25:11,494 --> 00:25:14,869
I would do the lighting setup, and I would film
several at once.
429
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:19,509
Then I would kind of have another session where
I would schedule a couple of weeks in advance.
430
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:25,330
So I tend to batch things a lot because often
for me, the energy is in getting set up and
431
00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:27,404
getting into the mode to do the one thing.
432
00:25:28,525 --> 00:25:34,285
If I then do it and rest, do it and rest, do it
and rest, that's much easier than what we call
433
00:25:34,285 --> 00:25:38,205
task switching, which is often difficult for
many neurodivergent people, and I'm also
434
00:25:38,205 --> 00:25:39,164
neurodivergent.
435
00:25:39,164 --> 00:25:43,019
So it's when you kind of switch from doing this
one thing to then doing another thing to then
436
00:25:43,019 --> 00:25:43,980
doing another thing.
437
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:46,480
That could often take a lot more executive
capacity.
438
00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:52,400
So for me, if I batch my work, that saves on a
lot of energy.
439
00:25:52,815 --> 00:25:57,315
I do also have, you know, we're talking in the
book about creating your own bespoke
440
00:25:57,375 --> 00:25:59,154
personalized healing roadmap.
441
00:25:59,375 --> 00:26:01,714
So I, of course, have my own healing roadmap.
442
00:26:02,095 --> 00:26:05,454
And I, you know, work on that and kind of take
care of myself.
443
00:26:05,454 --> 00:26:06,960
My self-care through that.
444
00:26:07,919 --> 00:26:13,460
I do do a lot of things in advance because I'm
disabled and I'm a therapist and a writer.
445
00:26:13,679 --> 00:26:17,619
And I care for my partner who's also disabled,
and we have three rescue dogs.
446
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,355
And so, you know, I talk about how we set up in
the book systems and routines that we say you
447
00:26:24,355 --> 00:26:27,894
let the systems hold stuff so that you don't
have to.
448
00:26:29,075 --> 00:26:29,554
Yes.
449
00:26:30,034 --> 00:26:31,474
I felt like it's another part of the question.
450
00:26:31,474 --> 00:26:33,414
What was the did did I miss a bit?
451
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:33,900
Yes.
452
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,940
It was totally, and I thank you so much.
453
00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:45,259
And what I realized when we emailed before our
interview was that you implemented some, I
454
00:26:45,259 --> 00:26:47,684
think, bots or I don't know how you call this.
455
00:26:47,684 --> 00:26:52,345
It was an automatic email responder, and it was
well explained.
456
00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:55,365
And so I never saw this before in that way.
457
00:26:55,365 --> 00:27:03,589
You know, it is very nice to receive emails
from you in preparation as well or to confirm.
458
00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:05,349
It's a different way.
459
00:27:05,809 --> 00:27:06,849
So thank you so much.
460
00:27:06,849 --> 00:27:12,194
And this leads me also to say when you want to
reach out to Grace, please reach out.
461
00:27:12,194 --> 00:27:13,794
She's amazing, of course.
462
00:27:13,794 --> 00:27:17,414
And then you receive those beautiful emails as
well.
463
00:27:17,554 --> 00:27:22,454
So now it's time for your last thoughts to the
audience, please.
464
00:27:23,634 --> 00:27:24,355
Thank you.
465
00:27:24,355 --> 00:27:24,994
Thank you.
466
00:27:24,994 --> 00:27:32,380
So, you know, really, I guess, what I wanted to
kind of say as we close is that if you're
467
00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:36,880
struggling in health care, if you're struggling
with your chronic illness, if you're struggling
468
00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:45,204
in wellness or trying to do the latest diet or
exercise regime or fashionable thing, what if
469
00:27:45,204 --> 00:27:46,345
you haven't failed?
470
00:27:46,805 --> 00:27:52,744
What if you're struggling, but it's okay that
if we need to make wellness and health care
471
00:27:53,045 --> 00:27:54,025
work for you?
472
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,179
You're not alone in this.
473
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,419
You're not wrong if you find cookie-cutter
plans haven't worked for you.
474
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:09,015
I believe we are more unique, messy,
struggling, fantastic, brilliant, human than
475
00:28:09,015 --> 00:28:12,234
many of the media has made us out to be.
476
00:28:12,295 --> 00:28:18,695
And we need to work with ways of being and ways
of taking care of ourselves that welcome and
477
00:28:18,695 --> 00:28:19,914
embrace that reality.
478
00:28:20,455 --> 00:28:23,515
And because of that, I believe in us, and I
believe in our possibilities.
479
00:28:25,139 --> 00:28:25,379
Wow.
480
00:28:25,379 --> 00:28:26,659
I totally agree.
481
00:28:26,659 --> 00:28:29,079
I thank you so much for our interview.
482
00:28:29,779 --> 00:28:30,599
Thank you.
483
00:28:30,899 --> 00:28:31,799
Thank you.
484
00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:34,440
I see you in the next episode.
