Traditions & Touchdowns: Football at W&L | General Lee Speaking Ep.4

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Thanks for tuning into The Generals
Redoubt's podcast series, "General Lee
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Speaking: An Alumni History of Washington
and Lee University." This series is all
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about our alma mater's unique heritage.
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Join us each episode as we discuss
the critical characters and
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events that transformed a small
Scots-Irish Academy into one of the
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premier institutions in America.
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Hear from alumni, students, and
professors as they share their experience
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and perspective on these moments.
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And most importantly, understand why
we must still instill current and
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future generations of generals with a
passion for Washington and Lee's past.
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I'm your host, Kamron Spivey, recording
from the Charlie Kirk Memorial
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Podcasting Studio at Fancy Hill.
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Hope you can visit us sometime soon.
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I'm joined today by Thomas Wakefield,
Class of 2029, and a resident
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of Charlotte, North Carolina.
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Thomas is on the football team and
is very passionate about Washington
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and Lee, both its past and future.
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And he's agreed to join me today in
a detailed discussion of the history
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of Washington and Lee Athletics.
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Now if you know me, you know, I'm
not an expert in athletics, so I'll
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do my best and hopefully Thomas can
help us chug this program along.
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Thomas, before we start talking
about sports, just tell us a
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little bit about yourself and what
brought you to Washington and Lee.
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Thank you for having me on today.
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I'm Thomas Wakefield.
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I'm a first year here.
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What really brought me to Washington
and Lee because as a high school
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football player the Division III
level was where I kind of knew
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my college future was gonna be.
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And I visited a lot of
Division III schools.
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While there are some schools with a
similar educational reputation to a
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Washington and Lee, there are none
that I felt were better fit for me.
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And I felt that, our unique traditions
and, campus lifestyle with, the
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Honor System and the Speaking
Tradition being some of the chief
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examples of this, were what made
Washington Lee a perfect fit for me.
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I also built great relationships
with the football coaches and just
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felt like home from the moment I
stepped on campus my junior year.
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Just finished up the
football season in November.
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We got our second bowl win in two seasons
against Lycoming College in Pennsylvania.
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And yeah, I think we have a great
football program currently and we
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have a long and detailed, uh, rich
history of football and other sports
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as well at Washington and Lee.
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So what was the sort of first
thing you learned about Washington
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and Lee's football program?
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Let's say you first hear about W&L,
however old you are, our football
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program's not known nationally now, we're
not the most, football oriented school,
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but there's clearly some unique things.
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So what's the first thing that stuck
out to you or that jumped out to you?
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Actually it was funny because while
you say that, it's true that W&L is
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not a nationally relevant program
today, one of our former coaches,
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Scott Abell, was one of the first
things I learned about this program.
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Because growing up in Charlotte, North
Carolina, Davidson, which was Abell's
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last stop before he moved on to Rice in
the summer of 2025 was very near and Abel
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developed actually a pioneering offensive
system here at Washington and Lee when
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he became the offensive coordinator in
2010, and eventually the head coach, which
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is one of the most successful stretches
in the history of our football program.
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That was one of the first
things I heard about.
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And it goes to show that, you know,
even if Washington and Lee is not
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Division I FBS football, we still
have, connections to, and people that
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came from, our school that are making
major developments in football today.
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And that was the first
thing I heard about it.
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And it started me down the rabbit hole of
learning about, the program before Abell
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and obviously still Abell's time here
and his system and how it's proliferated
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to different schools across the country.
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Yeah.
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As I mentioned, I don't know a whole lot
about athletics at W&L and I certainly
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wasn't at as many games as I probably
should have gone to as a student.
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But one of the things that has stuck
out to me, and a lot of my friends
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being athletes, both graduated
now and still at W&L, is that
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Washington and Lee's unique in that
a lot of our students are athletes.
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I'm sure you might know more specific
numbers, but they're athletes, but
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they're also really good students.
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And, for those that listened to our last
podcast, that released On My Honor, I
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spoke with Jordan Kach, who's a senior
tennis player, and she noted that she
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was a double major, and also a student
athlete and just super involved in
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both academic life and sports life.
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And you know, that's not really something
you see at many institutions, right?
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I think a lot of colleges, if you play
football, you study communications
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and go to a few classes a semester
and not really, you know, engaged.
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So what is, I mean, is that, is that
a fair, am I summarizing that right?
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I think you're absolutely correct
in that, uh, summarization.
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The mission of Division III is to promote
the whole student and the athlete.
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But I think W&L especially does
an incredible job with that.
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Coaches are usually understanding of
class conflicts and of other groups.
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I know several guys on the football team
who are involved with Williams Investment
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Society or the Real Estate Society.
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Just last semester, my first
semester on the team there are
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guys who have classes that run,
into the practice/meetings window.
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Obviously it's not ideal, but the coaches
do their best to accommodate and I think
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it really exemplifies how our university
promotes both the student and the athlete.
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Generally I think our university promotes
the, whole person of every student there.
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I think it's also indicative of how
easy it is to get involved, but also
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how much Washington and Lee encourages
us to get involved and be successful
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in all facets of academics, athletics,
social life, and extracurriculars.
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Yeah.
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It really just leans towards that
Washington and Lee vision of a sort
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of well-rounded liberal arts student.
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And reminds me the educational intent
of Washington and Lee University, or you
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could even say Washington College starting
under the presidency of Robert E. Lee.
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What most people don't know, even if
they're avid sports fans at W&L, is
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that sports actually started during the
presidency of Robert E. Lee, and that
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prior to that, the school, as we've
talked about in previous episodes, was
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a very regional Scotts-Irish Academy
and athletics were not well supported
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or thought of by the Presbyterian
ministers that ran the school.
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Students were encouraged to be physically
healthy and active, but there was a
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disdain and this sort of was shared
across the country in many regions,
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of formalized athletic programs.
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And there even would be a lot of that
in the early decades of Washington
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and Lee, and even, I guess later in
the 1950s when our, our school's,
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attitude towards, football and,
scholarships and things would change.
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But one of the things Lee really
understood, as this progressive visionary
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in education, was that a good student is
involved in a lot of things, and you could
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have a student who excels in academics,
who really works hard, but also is very
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involved in sports and athletic programs.
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So I'll just start with my little brief
history from what I know about sports
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at W&L and I guess I'll ask, do you know
what the first athletic event at W&L was?
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I believe it was rowing, right?
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Yeah, rowing.
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And I don't think, do we
have a rowing team anymore?
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I'm not sure actually.
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I don't think we have
a varsity rowing team.
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Yeah, I think when I think of
rowing, I think of a very old sport
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that not many people do anymore.
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Uh, I know there was that movie that came
out several years ago in the last decade
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or so about rowing during World War II.
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And there was some team, it was
some sort of paddling movie.
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It was supposed to be like a war movie.
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So rowing kind of a less popular
sport now, but I'm gonna read a
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little segment here from Ollie
Crenshaw's General Lee's College.
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It gives a good introduction to the
changes that occur at Washington
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College under Lee's presidency.
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And this excerpt comes from page 237,
describing from The Gazette, what's
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now the News Gazette on May 12th,
1869 describes "a race of a mile and
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a half over a course extending from
Clifton, which was the resident of
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Colonel Johnston," who was a professor,
"to bend the river in return."
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"The balmy day and the
interest in the contest.
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Allured many fair ladies from the
city to grace and witness the scene.
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Under the wide spreading Sycamore
at Clifton, were General R.E. Lee
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on horseback," presumably Traveller,
"Colonel McDonald of the VMI, Professors
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White and Johnston of Washington
College, Colonel Ross and others.
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Several turnouts with ladies and
children collected near this spot.
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Among them, the fine stately
team of Professor White
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drawing his family carriage.
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Higher up the stream, were General
Smith of the VMI, Professor Nelson
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of the College and Captain David E.
Moore, Captains Henderson and Brooke
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of the VMI and Professor Walker
of the College were in skiffs."
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So for those of you that don't
know anything about university
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history, that's a pretty stacked
list of names in Rockbridge County.
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It's pretty much every leading figure in
Lexington at that time was at this game.
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This again was in 1869, so Lee
and others are actually attending
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this early sports competition.
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And the story goes that Lee really
enjoyed it, and had hoped to see more.
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Of course, he dies the next
year and rowing will continue.
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I don't think there's many games
today that would draw out that
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large of a crowd of pretty much all
the top educators at the school.
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And for that to be the case in
this early sporting endeavor really
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shows how sort of enthusiastic
the college administration was.
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Certainly in 1840, you would not have
had President of Washington College
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and Superintendent of VMI show up
and observe all of these on a day.
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So I think that reflects a pretty
immediate change in the approval
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or explicit approval of athletics.
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And we talked about this in my,
last podcast from "General Lee
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Speaking" with Neely Young, who
knows a lot about athletics himself.
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And we didn't get to cover
it much in the program.
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Under Lee's presidency, there's a lot
of changes to the institution, a lot of
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growth, fraternities and academic changes.
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The Honor System develops quite
a bit under his time, and the
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question is always, how involved
was Robert E. Lee, right?
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I mean, he wasn't in the south
most dormitory on the South Hall
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when Kappa Alpha was formed.
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But it's assumed that he approved of
it, because if he didn't, then there
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wouldn't have been a fraternity.
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He could have easily shut it down.
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Same with the Honor System.
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We don't know how directly involved
he was in deciding, hey, we're
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gonna adopt what would eventually
become the Single Sanction.
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But his sort of tacit approval is there.
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For athletics, his explicit
presence is there, right.
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I mean, he's at these games, so clearly he
supported academics, as well as athletics
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and didn't see those conflicting.
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And so, do you feel as an athlete
yourself that the school's very
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supportive of the programs?
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And do you have, when you go to games,
do you see administrators and others in
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the crowds or do you think that there's
as much of a sort of investment in it?
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Yeah, so that's actually
a really good question.
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I think that the university
does a good job of supporting
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athletics at the level we're at.
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I mean, obviously the financial support
went away from that 70 years ago, but
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the support that exists for athletics
is really, um, I think it's strong,
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alumni support especially too, you know.
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We had a donation in the past year at
Wilson Field for a new video scoreboard.
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Our workout facilities in the
DARC are very nice, up to date.
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Also with support regards to, like,
missing class, practices, you know, the
00:12:02.099 --> 00:12:06.969
fact that we have an evening block of
time, I think it's from 4:15-7:00, uh,
00:12:06.999 --> 00:12:10.999
in season, professors aren't supposed
to schedule, you know, classes, tests,
00:12:10.999 --> 00:12:14.929
other events, with respect to athletes
to allow us to have time to practice.
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And then obviously, I don't know if you're
aware of the university's policy for like
00:12:17.909 --> 00:12:19.799
away games and travel for away games.
00:12:20.099 --> 00:12:25.229
But the policy is that professors are
not required to grant students the
00:12:25.229 --> 00:12:29.699
ability to miss their class, but they are
heavily encouraged to by the university.
00:12:29.699 --> 00:12:32.219
And the wording is, 'cause I actually
saw this a couple days ago, while
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.489
reading the syllabus for one of my
classes, the wording is "Owing to the
00:12:35.489 --> 00:12:39.999
athletic department's, commitment to
the university's mission of educating
00:12:39.999 --> 00:12:43.449
the full person of its student," which
I really do think speaks to how the
00:12:43.499 --> 00:12:46.979
university and the athletic department
kind of work together in terms of
00:12:47.339 --> 00:12:49.559
educating and developing its students.
00:12:49.829 --> 00:12:52.859
I am not gonna lie, uh, I've never,
I haven't seen an administrator in
00:12:52.859 --> 00:12:55.649
the crowd at Wilson Field, but they
certainly could have been there.
00:12:55.749 --> 00:13:00.079
I actually did when I was touring,
run into an administrator at
00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:02.149
Wilson Field, just walking around.
00:13:02.479 --> 00:13:04.669
But I'll have to keep a closer
eye out, but it's, you know,
00:13:04.669 --> 00:13:07.196
it's hard in the middle of a
game to look up and see people.
00:13:07.246 --> 00:13:11.806
Well, maybe, maybe the takeaway from this
program is if you're a dean at Washington
00:13:11.806 --> 00:13:15.776
and Lee, you should go to the next
football game or other athletic activity
00:13:15.776 --> 00:13:19.836
and support the students because I think
it is important and I guess it's aligned
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with what Robert E. Lee was envisioning, a
sort of broad support among both students
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who of course were very supportive of
athletics and wanted there to be a lot of
00:13:28.751 --> 00:13:31.511
programs, as well as the administration.
00:13:31.751 --> 00:13:36.041
So I want to talk about the change
of administrations over time at W&L,
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which is named that in 1870, Washington
and Lee, over time how administrators
00:13:42.546 --> 00:13:48.336
differently view sports, obviously sports
in 1870, we have rowing, we have other
00:13:48.336 --> 00:13:52.296
sports developed beyond that most notably
for this program would be football.
00:13:52.536 --> 00:13:55.606
And I'm sure Thomas can tell us
a little more about the football
00:13:55.686 --> 00:13:57.566
program's history over time.
00:13:57.836 --> 00:14:01.676
But not all the administrators have
always, the presidents, I should say,
00:14:01.916 --> 00:14:04.586
have always viewed athletics the same way.
00:14:04.616 --> 00:14:08.426
There's several debates in different
decades about the role athletics should
00:14:08.426 --> 00:14:13.456
play at Washington and Lee and concern
that it might be consuming too much of
00:14:13.456 --> 00:14:17.966
the student's time, that academic quality
is dropping among student athletes.
00:14:18.266 --> 00:14:23.426
And so in the 1890s, there's a
couple big incidents that spark a
00:14:23.426 --> 00:14:28.206
lot of debate, especially in the
Ring-tum Phi and local papers, about
00:14:28.596 --> 00:14:30.100
the football team in particular.
00:14:30.381 --> 00:14:35.294
I just wanna point out and note a bit
of the irony here, under the presidency
00:14:35.294 --> 00:14:39.484
of Wilson in the 1890s, I think in 1897.
00:14:39.484 --> 00:14:42.454
His presidency is very short-lived,
it's about a three year period.
00:14:42.574 --> 00:14:44.584
He dies in office.
00:14:44.614 --> 00:14:47.169
And it was a tragic thing for the college.
00:14:47.469 --> 00:14:52.059
But the football program develops during
his time, and the football field is
00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:53.889
named after him, still to this day.
00:14:54.109 --> 00:14:59.639
That seems ironic because if you read the
history of football under his time, he's
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:03.919
very critical of football and the program,
and that's because of these two instances.
00:15:04.249 --> 00:15:10.449
One is when there's a brawl between
W&L and VMI cadets regarding
00:15:10.449 --> 00:15:13.899
football in October of 1897.
00:15:14.209 --> 00:15:17.549
There had been a game, and this probably
still occurs to some extent, but
00:15:17.549 --> 00:15:21.389
especially in the 19th century, there
was always a lot of, competition and
00:15:21.389 --> 00:15:26.549
sort of mocking, derisive comments made
against W&L from cadets and vice-versa.
00:15:26.819 --> 00:15:30.769
And so after one particular game
there was, what this quote says,
00:15:31.059 --> 00:15:38.179
that "the cadets rushed to a wagon of
W&L students and threw imprecations
00:15:38.199 --> 00:15:39.999
and stones at the occupants."
00:15:40.313 --> 00:15:45.289
And so "the driver whipped up the wagon
and escaped. But other students were
00:15:45.319 --> 00:15:49.519
vehemently abused." So you had this
brawl and it sort of reflected this
00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:54.389
concern that was shared in the country
at the time of these athletes, they're
00:15:54.389 --> 00:15:58.139
kind of getting in fights and it's
violent, it's an aggressive environment.
00:15:58.319 --> 00:16:02.239
President Wilson is very critical
and he sort of scolds both parties,
00:16:02.269 --> 00:16:04.369
as does the superintendent at VMI.
00:16:04.789 --> 00:16:08.769
And then a bigger case that
happens that same year is in a
00:16:08.769 --> 00:16:11.369
game from Washington and Lee vs.
00:16:11.789 --> 00:16:14.849
the Central University of Kentucky.
00:16:15.129 --> 00:16:17.589
And I've actually heard two
stories of this was Center College
00:16:17.589 --> 00:16:20.419
and the University of Kentucky,
on a couple different sources.
00:16:20.419 --> 00:16:24.944
But one of the two., And they
played a football team, and I'm
00:16:24.944 --> 00:16:27.644
gonna read another quote here and,
this will probably be my last quote
00:16:27.644 --> 00:16:29.264
from General Lee's College today.
00:16:29.624 --> 00:16:33.824
The W&L football team, quote,
"clandestinely took with them on their
00:16:33.824 --> 00:16:38.324
recent tour, a stalwart young man,
formerly I believe, of the police force
00:16:38.324 --> 00:16:42.794
in Lexington, passed them off as a student
and played him as such in the match
00:16:42.794 --> 00:16:47.534
game at Lexington, Kentucky, and would
have lined him up at Charleston against
00:16:47.534 --> 00:16:52.557
West Virginia University if Professor
Humphreys had not hurried to prevent it."
00:16:52.887 --> 00:16:57.687
So they paid this guy who was a pretty
big guy, not a, uh, student by any means.
00:16:57.987 --> 00:17:02.217
President Wilson, who had actually
helped pay for their tour that year had
00:17:02.277 --> 00:17:06.337
personally paid towards the athletic
program, was very upset, made them
00:17:06.337 --> 00:17:10.507
apologize and surrender the game after
the fact, and then actually suspended the
00:17:10.507 --> 00:17:15.737
season because of how the W&L students
had not acted very honorably in that case.
00:17:15.737 --> 00:17:19.007
And so, Thomas, I'm sure
that's not happening today.
00:17:20.237 --> 00:17:24.537
But you know, what do you think do you
think there's any sort of controversy
00:17:24.537 --> 00:17:26.157
today with the football team?
00:17:26.157 --> 00:17:28.257
Are there these types of concerns?
00:17:28.373 --> 00:17:30.293
Are you getting in fights
with the VMI cadets?
00:17:30.293 --> 00:17:30.503
No.
00:17:30.503 --> 00:17:30.978
That's not happening.
00:17:30.978 --> 00:17:32.228
Yeah I don't know.
00:17:32.258 --> 00:17:36.368
Obviously I biased based on my relation
to the situation, but I generally think
00:17:36.368 --> 00:17:40.348
that the football guys at W&L are some
of the best guys I've ever been around.
00:17:40.398 --> 00:17:41.268
It's a great brotherhood.
00:17:41.378 --> 00:17:45.018
I also think though that people who
are not within our brotherhoodhood, who
00:17:45.018 --> 00:17:49.368
are not, you know, not really connected
to athletics, do kind of feel that the
00:17:49.368 --> 00:17:51.648
athletes are a lower quality of student.
00:17:51.648 --> 00:17:55.068
And I would say that's just not true
'cause if you look at what our athletes,
00:17:55.098 --> 00:17:59.818
um, do in the classroom, what they do
post-graduation, what they're involved
00:17:59.818 --> 00:18:02.698
in on campus, their groups, like I
mentioned earlier, WIS, the Real Estate
00:18:02.698 --> 00:18:06.258
Society I mean, I don't think there's
any evidence support the fact that the
00:18:06.258 --> 00:18:08.328
athletes are a lower quality of student.
00:18:08.328 --> 00:18:11.088
I think that some of our athletes
are actually some of our most
00:18:11.308 --> 00:18:13.618
involved and beneficial members
of the student community.
00:18:13.858 --> 00:18:16.708
And that's not to say that like these
students who kind of look down the
00:18:16.708 --> 00:18:20.458
athletes are like, you know, doing
so with like malice in their hearts.
00:18:20.723 --> 00:18:24.943
I think it's just a situation where
people get caught up in stereotypes
00:18:24.943 --> 00:18:29.387
and they're like, they judge
before they really meet someone or
00:18:29.477 --> 00:18:33.652
they judge based on preconceived
ideas and not actual experience.
00:18:33.652 --> 00:18:33.862
Yeah.
00:18:33.867 --> 00:18:37.572
And I think you have a very similar
case against fraternities for a lot
00:18:37.572 --> 00:18:41.872
of independents that are opposed
to Greek Life and very critical of
00:18:41.872 --> 00:18:42.922
the people that join Greek Life.
00:18:42.922 --> 00:18:46.158
I think those concerns are
also un- substantiated.
00:18:46.488 --> 00:18:52.718
So let's talk a little more about
the football program and President
00:18:53.078 --> 00:18:56.072
Wilson, who as I mentioned, the
football field is named after.
00:18:56.282 --> 00:19:03.245
Is there any knowledge among the football
team today, 2025-26, of the history
00:19:03.245 --> 00:19:04.925
of the program, of President Wilson?
00:19:05.162 --> 00:19:08.042
So I think there are some things
we constantly reference back to.
00:19:08.302 --> 00:19:10.882
I'm sure obviously eventually will get
to it later in the program, but the
00:19:10.882 --> 00:19:15.382
1950 Gator Bowl team that was led by
fullback, Walt Michaels, Coach George
00:19:15.382 --> 00:19:18.172
Barclay, like probably one of the
better teams in our school's history.
00:19:18.502 --> 00:19:22.182
You know, we have one of the posters
from the Gator Bowl that year
00:19:22.492 --> 00:19:24.052
on the door of our locker room.
00:19:24.052 --> 00:19:27.102
And, you know, we'll bang on that
before we go out every Saturday.
00:19:27.432 --> 00:19:31.732
And I don't think everybody has
a thorough encyclopedic knowledge
00:19:31.942 --> 00:19:33.822
of the football program's history.
00:19:34.212 --> 00:19:38.412
But, I think every football player
will also tell you that W&L was one of
00:19:38.412 --> 00:19:40.872
the founding members of the Southern
Conference, which obviously eventually
00:19:40.872 --> 00:19:44.932
became the SEC. But yeah, stuff like that,
big moments in our school's history, I
00:19:44.932 --> 00:19:48.552
think are very well known to the students
and to the football players especially.
00:19:48.607 --> 00:19:51.617
Yeah, well, I would imagine it's
a great way to build camaraderie
00:19:51.617 --> 00:19:55.227
and sort of morale by talking about
the team that came before the sort
00:19:55.227 --> 00:19:56.952
of legacy that you're pushing.
00:19:56.952 --> 00:20:01.009
And I'm sure there's plenty of trophies
and awards on display in the uh,
00:20:01.099 --> 00:20:04.569
gym that sort of interest students,
whether they're athletes or not, to
00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:09.099
say, wow, you know, W&L has a really
strong heritage in student athletics.
00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:13.599
We have a whole hall of fame on the second
floor of the DARC which is really cool.
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.329
I went in there, uh, on one
of my recruiting visits.
00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:19.269
But yeah, I mean, you can pull up
anybody that's ever been admitted
00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:22.299
to the W&L Hall of Fame and there's
a lot of football guys in there.
00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:26.469
That same hallway, there's a timeline
running along the wall of, you know, big
00:20:26.469 --> 00:20:30.339
moments in both the school's athletic
history as a whole, and it's running from
00:20:30.339 --> 00:20:35.179
all the way back to that first 1872 game
against VMI, all the way, and I think
00:20:35.179 --> 00:20:40.529
the most recent entry is a 2010 or 2011,
45-42 overtime win over Hampton-Sydney.
00:20:40.969 --> 00:20:45.499
But yeah, I mean, there's a long,
continuous proud history of football,
00:20:45.499 --> 00:20:47.039
but also athletics, at W&L in general.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:47.774
Mm-hmm, yeah.
00:20:47.774 --> 00:20:49.344
And, there's so much you could talk about.
00:20:49.344 --> 00:20:54.984
We're talking about 150 years of athletics
at W&L, so there's gonna be stories and
00:20:55.074 --> 00:20:59.234
individuals: "Cy" Young sticks out as
one of the greatest athletes, and he's
00:20:59.234 --> 00:21:00.824
of course, a Washington and Lee student.
00:21:00.824 --> 00:21:04.984
So hopefully one day we'll have a
program more about Cy in particular.
00:21:04.984 --> 00:21:08.154
And you know, if you don't know
who that is, as a listener, then
00:21:08.154 --> 00:21:09.909
you really should check it out.
00:21:09.909 --> 00:21:12.899
I know there's also seems to
be a pretty engaged digital
00:21:12.899 --> 00:21:14.399
presence for this sort of thing.
00:21:14.399 --> 00:21:18.489
Like alumni magazines and if you
just sort of Google the Washington
00:21:18.489 --> 00:21:20.649
and Lee athletic history, you
can find a lot just from that.
00:21:20.649 --> 00:21:22.479
So I think it's it's pretty accessible.
00:21:22.729 --> 00:21:26.509
But Thomas, you seem to know quite
a bit about Washington and Lee
00:21:26.509 --> 00:21:29.919
football, just the history of it,
maybe more than some of your teammates.
00:21:29.919 --> 00:21:32.999
Do you want to just walk us through a
little bit about the key highlights,
00:21:32.999 --> 00:21:34.259
moments that stick out to you?
00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:34.919
Absolutely.
00:21:34.969 --> 00:21:37.009
And, you know, cut me off if
I'm getting too long because I
00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:38.419
can get long-winded about this.
00:21:38.659 --> 00:21:41.419
But the first game played in
Washington and Lee's football
00:21:41.419 --> 00:21:43.889
history is 1872 against VMI.
00:21:44.129 --> 00:21:48.139
It's played on the parade grounds at
VMI and Washington and Lee wins 4-2.
00:21:48.499 --> 00:21:53.259
And there's three other games played
that fall in the spring of 1873 and
00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.069
Washington and Lee wins all four of them.
00:21:55.399 --> 00:21:58.949
It was actually interesting because the
first accredited American college football
00:21:58.949 --> 00:22:04.039
game was played in 1869 between Princeton
and Rutgers, but that game was a lot more
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:05.809
like soccer than we consider football.
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.189
And the Washington and Lee and
VMI series of games in 1872
00:22:09.489 --> 00:22:10.849
was played under those rules.
00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:13.619
Those rules included, you couldn't
carry the ball to advance it.
00:22:13.739 --> 00:22:14.879
There was a lot more kicking.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:16.644
Scoring was worth one point and not six.
00:22:16.724 --> 00:22:16.784
Yeah.
00:22:16.834 --> 00:22:19.934
The first true American college
football game, what most we
00:22:19.934 --> 00:22:24.324
consider, was played in 1874 between
Harvard and McGill from Canada.
00:22:24.504 --> 00:22:28.694
So W&L has really been around since
the beginning, and that 1872 game
00:22:28.694 --> 00:22:31.784
was the first college football game
played south of the Mason-Dixon line,
00:22:31.814 --> 00:22:34.167
so really a pioneer in every aspect.
00:22:34.207 --> 00:22:37.727
Well, if I can just add on to, I
think the reason why we're a pioneer
00:22:37.727 --> 00:22:42.167
in that is that Washington and Lee
University is one of the largest
00:22:42.167 --> 00:22:44.057
colleges in the country at the time.
00:22:44.087 --> 00:22:47.957
I think a lot of people miss this
really important fact when Lee becomes
00:22:47.957 --> 00:22:50.237
president, the school grows so quickly.
00:22:50.457 --> 00:22:56.047
And in terms of how many colleges
are in the country in 1875, far less
00:22:56.047 --> 00:22:57.337
than there are today, of course.
00:22:57.387 --> 00:22:59.987
But we were one of the bigger ones,
and so it would make sense to me that
00:22:59.987 --> 00:23:03.627
we would have, especially because of
the financial resources we had, that we
00:23:03.627 --> 00:23:06.087
would have football as an early school.
00:23:06.102 --> 00:23:09.642
Yeah, and it's important to note as
well that W&L from the very beginning,
00:23:09.992 --> 00:23:15.229
because there's a bunch of seasons from
about 1872 to 1920 where Washington Lee
00:23:15.439 --> 00:23:18.949
is playing as a Southern Independent
because there are no conferences in
00:23:18.949 --> 00:23:20.479
the south for football at that time.
00:23:20.779 --> 00:23:22.759
And this is subsidized
athletics the whole way.
00:23:22.909 --> 00:23:25.669
This is, you know, we're gonna make
it easier for players to get in.
00:23:25.699 --> 00:23:28.339
We're going to offer scholarship money.
00:23:28.699 --> 00:23:30.439
And there's a couple really
good seasons in there.
00:23:30.489 --> 00:23:34.219
1905, that team is credited
as Champions of the South.
00:23:34.299 --> 00:23:37.809
Not quite good enough to reach the
national champion given to Chicago,
00:23:37.809 --> 00:23:39.399
and I believe Yale that year.
00:23:39.849 --> 00:23:43.539
But that team goes 8-0-1 and is
crowned as the best college football
00:23:43.539 --> 00:23:46.709
team, again south Mason-Dixon
line, Champions of the south.
00:23:46.709 --> 00:23:46.949
Wow.
00:23:47.069 --> 00:23:48.359
And you said that was 1905?
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:49.259
Yeah, 1905.
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.679
And I believe in 1914 is
another very good year.
00:23:52.679 --> 00:23:54.039
They go 8-3-1.
00:23:54.449 --> 00:23:59.339
And they're very successful, independent
all the way up until 1920 where we join
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:03.389
with about 19 other schools to form
the Southern Conference, which will
00:24:03.389 --> 00:24:05.009
eventually become the SEC of today.
00:24:05.309 --> 00:24:10.489
And we compete in this Southern
Conference from 1920 until we move
00:24:10.489 --> 00:24:12.839
down following the scandal in 1954.
00:24:13.199 --> 00:24:16.439
1934 is another really
good year for the program.
00:24:16.604 --> 00:24:20.294
They are the champion of Virginia
and the Southern Conference Champion.
00:24:20.294 --> 00:24:24.704
They beat South Carolina 14-7 to seal
the Southern Conference Championship.
00:24:25.094 --> 00:24:29.604
Probably the best year in program history
is the 1950 season, one of Washington
00:24:29.604 --> 00:24:33.234
and Lee's only, All-American's, Walt
Michaels plays fullback for this team.
00:24:33.564 --> 00:24:37.134
They go 8-3, win the Southern Conference
again, they finished the year ranked
00:24:37.134 --> 00:24:41.274
number 18 and The Associated Press Top
25 poll, which is the highest ranking
00:24:41.304 --> 00:24:42.524
Washington and Lee's ever achieved.
00:24:42.994 --> 00:24:47.044
They get invited to play the Gator Bowl in
Jacksonville, Florida on New Year's Day.
00:24:47.174 --> 00:24:51.404
Funnily enough, Washington and
Lee in so doing becomes the first
00:24:51.404 --> 00:24:54.254
school from Virginia to play
in a New Year's Day bowl game.
00:24:54.649 --> 00:24:57.979
Unfortunately, for all of us generals
though, star fullback, Walt Michaels,
00:24:58.029 --> 00:25:01.449
gets appendicitis the week of the
game and is forced to sit out.
00:25:01.609 --> 00:25:06.079
Washington and Lee loses that
Gator Bowl to Wyoming 20-17, and
00:25:06.649 --> 00:25:08.149
the next year they go 6 and 4.
00:25:08.479 --> 00:25:11.009
But the next year is a bit of a
downturn, I think it's 3 and 7.
00:25:11.249 --> 00:25:13.439
Then we're at 1954, which
is where the university's
00:25:13.439 --> 00:25:14.759
football history really turns.
00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:16.189
And we'll get to that in just a second.
00:25:16.189 --> 00:25:20.419
I wanna contextualize the university
as a whole during this period.
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:25.829
I think the 1930s through 50s gets kind
of overshadowed in university history.
00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:30.299
That is the presidency of Francis
Pendleton Gaines, who I think a lot
00:25:30.299 --> 00:25:33.749
of people, myself included, would
say he's, he's one of the greatest
00:25:33.749 --> 00:25:37.579
presidents, in university's history,
in any university's history, frankly.
00:25:37.849 --> 00:25:41.339
And he started in 1930
would retire in 1959.
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:44.764
So he's presiding during these
pretty significant moments
00:25:44.764 --> 00:25:45.424
that you're mentioning.
00:25:45.514 --> 00:25:48.754
And I just wanna talk
about the Great Depression.
00:25:49.084 --> 00:25:52.564
This is talked about pretty
thoroughly in Blaine Brownell's,
00:25:52.784 --> 00:25:56.324
Washington and Lee history,
continuing on from Ollie Crenshaw's.
00:25:56.574 --> 00:25:59.994
There's a good section dedicated
to the growth of athletics
00:25:59.994 --> 00:26:01.284
during the Great Depression.
00:26:01.284 --> 00:26:04.014
The Great Depression hits very
hard on a lot of institutions,
00:26:04.014 --> 00:26:05.244
including Washington and Lee.
00:26:05.544 --> 00:26:09.924
And there are a lot of pay cuts being
made to professors to, I mean, all sorts
00:26:09.924 --> 00:26:12.544
of professions outside of even academics.
00:26:12.544 --> 00:26:18.724
But one of the things that was debated
by Dr. Gaines right on the eve of some
00:26:18.754 --> 00:26:25.184
serious financial downturns is how to
address the athletic funding problem.
00:26:25.264 --> 00:26:30.889
A lot of the really good athletic programs
at the time at other colleges we're
00:26:30.889 --> 00:26:34.759
actually increasing the salary of their
coaches during the Great Depression.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.909
This was to simply maintain
the best coaches on the team.
00:26:39.129 --> 00:26:42.349
The thought was if we want to keep
winning in athletics, which is, during
00:26:42.349 --> 00:26:45.679
the Great Depression sports are a
big sort of, um, comfort for people.
00:26:45.679 --> 00:26:48.319
You hear about baseball and
people listening to the radio.
00:26:48.619 --> 00:26:53.499
And so sports are very important to
American culture in this inter-war period.
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:58.629
There's calls at Washington and Lee
to increase the salary of the athletic
00:26:58.859 --> 00:27:00.629
coaches, especially the football coach.
00:27:00.899 --> 00:27:04.469
And Dr. Gaines makes a very
critical decision not to do
00:27:04.469 --> 00:27:06.699
that, not to raise the salary.
00:27:06.969 --> 00:27:11.379
And this won him a lot of respect
among the faculty because the
00:27:11.379 --> 00:27:15.159
faculty's pay was getting docked,
I think somewhere between 5 to 10%.
00:27:15.564 --> 00:27:18.529
Gaines himself took a decrease
in pay during that period.
00:27:18.769 --> 00:27:23.269
And so he thought it would be very
unfair to give an athletic coach
00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:28.269
more pay while the professors and
others were suffering from pay loss.
00:27:28.504 --> 00:27:31.209
And, uh, and I think that was a
very principled decision to do.
00:27:31.419 --> 00:27:33.764
I believe it cost us our coach who left.
00:27:33.829 --> 00:27:35.799
But we were able to find other coaches.
00:27:35.919 --> 00:27:41.559
So I just wanna say the 1930s, early in
Gaines presidency, there's a great show of
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:46.609
honor and responsibility from Gaines and
integrity on making the right decision.
00:27:46.789 --> 00:27:51.472
And I think that's going to be very
important in how the 1950s plays out.
00:27:51.502 --> 00:27:54.622
And if I can also add onto that the
financial issue is a big problem for
00:27:54.622 --> 00:27:58.552
Washington and Lee because, like you
said this isn't the 1870s anymore.
00:27:58.602 --> 00:28:02.092
W&L is no longer one of the
largest institutions of higher
00:28:02.122 --> 00:28:02.962
learning in the country.
00:28:03.292 --> 00:28:07.792
Because by the 1930s the old guard of
the elite college football programs,
00:28:08.002 --> 00:28:12.142
the Ivy League, and these small private
institutions had been replaced by
00:28:12.142 --> 00:28:14.422
these larger land grant universities.
00:28:14.562 --> 00:28:18.002
Those are gonna start, after the
Civil War and build up, pretty
00:28:18.002 --> 00:28:19.682
significantly in the next 50 years.
00:28:19.722 --> 00:28:20.052
Yeah.
00:28:20.357 --> 00:28:22.642
Alabama's winning their
first titles 1920s.
00:28:22.642 --> 00:28:24.532
Notre Dame is winning a
lot of national titles.
00:28:24.722 --> 00:28:26.292
Minnesota wins a few in the 30s.
00:28:26.522 --> 00:28:28.622
But the point is these
are all bigger schools.
00:28:28.782 --> 00:28:34.272
Most of 'em are big state schools and as
such, there's a major funding issue for
00:28:34.272 --> 00:28:38.242
Washington and Lee, for their football
program because the football program
00:28:38.242 --> 00:28:43.442
had for a long time actually subsidized
a lot of other things, the university,
00:28:43.442 --> 00:28:45.332
'cause it made a pretty hefty profit.
00:28:45.542 --> 00:28:48.452
But as we get into the forties and
especially the fifties, the football
00:28:48.452 --> 00:28:52.387
program starts losing money and
it's making a loss year over year.
00:28:52.627 --> 00:28:55.957
And eventually what happens actually
is Washington and Lee will play
00:28:56.077 --> 00:28:58.387
only 2 of their 10 games at home.
00:28:58.567 --> 00:29:02.827
And then we'll go around the country
playing games at larger schools because
00:29:02.827 --> 00:29:05.707
they're getting paid to do so, and
they're getting a portion of the tickets.
00:29:05.897 --> 00:29:08.707
Lexington with its geographic location,
can't attract enough people to
00:29:08.707 --> 00:29:12.997
Wilson Field for the football program
to make a profit and to cover the
00:29:12.997 --> 00:29:16.957
costs of these, you know, travel,
coach, scholarships, for players.
00:29:17.107 --> 00:29:20.737
And so even well before that 1954 cheating
scandal, which you're about to get into,
00:29:20.897 --> 00:29:23.837
there is a major question about the
future of subsidized athletics at the
00:29:23.837 --> 00:29:26.897
university simply due to the financial
burden it's placing on the school.
00:29:26.977 --> 00:29:30.487
It's hard to imagine Washington and
Lee struggling to pay for something.
00:29:30.487 --> 00:29:35.044
Now that thing, luckily I think we're in
a much better position now and thankfully
00:29:35.137 --> 00:29:37.957
that's because of the great leaders
that have stewarded the university.
00:29:38.117 --> 00:29:40.667
So let's talk about this 1950 scandal.
00:29:40.717 --> 00:29:42.847
There's two big things that
come to mind and I'll let you
00:29:43.067 --> 00:29:44.297
give the narration of them.
00:29:44.537 --> 00:29:50.297
The one is, I think the most infamous or
inspirational, depending on your outlook.
00:29:50.507 --> 00:29:55.837
Story about the football team and the
Honor System and what happens during that
00:29:55.837 --> 00:29:58.597
period where our team gets dismissed,
And you can let us know since you're a
00:29:58.597 --> 00:30:02.977
freshman, that they still narrate this
story during the honor orientations.
00:30:02.977 --> 00:30:05.457
I remember it being mentioned
when I was a freshman, and then
00:30:05.457 --> 00:30:07.377
I would read more about it later.
00:30:07.657 --> 00:30:08.587
So that's the one.
00:30:08.797 --> 00:30:11.987
And then the other is, of course,
the athletic scholarships.
00:30:11.987 --> 00:30:13.780
So why don't you tell
us about both of those.
00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:17.850
We just talked about the 1951
Gator Bowl which was, in a lot of
00:30:17.850 --> 00:30:19.380
respects, the height of the program.
00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:21.750
But things go, uh, downhill
pretty quickly from there.
00:30:21.750 --> 00:30:26.530
They have a couple of losing seasons and
1954 this massive cheating scandal breaks.
00:30:26.990 --> 00:30:34.010
Essentially what it involved was football
players were, it was I believe 14 football
00:30:34.010 --> 00:30:39.170
players and then nine other students
who were essentially using a test bank
00:30:39.320 --> 00:30:43.950
and paying a night watchman to look
the other way while they would steal
00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:48.450
tests and essentially either plagiarize
them and turn them in as their own or
00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:50.160
just copy the answers and turn them in.
00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:55.110
And this went on for apparently
a long period of time and
00:30:55.110 --> 00:30:56.820
it's all uncovered 1954.
00:30:56.970 --> 00:31:01.980
And all 23 of these students are
eventually either dismissed or choose
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:03.510
to leave under the Honor System.
00:31:03.840 --> 00:31:08.370
And Francis Gaines suspends
the football team for 1954.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.700
So we basically just destroy
our football team, right?
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:16.620
I mean we dismiss a significant number
of students and it makes a real statement
00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:20.950
and there's debates in the Ring-tum Phi at
the time and other student publications,
00:31:20.950 --> 00:31:24.220
the Southern Collegiate, of whether
or not the team should be dismissed.
00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:27.030
And well, you know, yeah, sure
it was wrong what they did, but
00:31:27.300 --> 00:31:28.410
it is our football team, right?
00:31:28.415 --> 00:31:31.730
I mean, we need our football team
and I think at probably any other
00:31:31.730 --> 00:31:35.600
institution, they might have gone
the other route and said, well, look
00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:37.220
the other way and let's continue.
00:31:37.220 --> 00:31:40.590
But Washington and Lee, that
culture of honor, Dr. Gaines's,
00:31:40.620 --> 00:31:43.710
commitment to integrity, I think
that really has shown through.
00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:46.510
This is still brought up in the
orientation for the Honor System
00:31:46.540 --> 00:31:50.790
every year, as I remember because
mine was only about six months ago.
00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:52.500
But yeah, they still
bring this up every year.
00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:55.620
And I think it's also important to
note that when the president of the
00:31:55.620 --> 00:32:00.820
Executive Committee of 1954 read
the decisions to expel some of the
00:32:00.830 --> 00:32:05.470
affected cheaters and students, the
entire audience in Lee Chapel stood
00:32:05.470 --> 00:32:09.700
up and gave him a round of applause
for his strong commitment to defending
00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:11.260
the Honor System and our traditions.
00:32:11.785 --> 00:32:11.935
Yeah.
00:32:11.990 --> 00:32:16.050
And here we are in this new year
students might use AI in law school
00:32:16.050 --> 00:32:17.600
papers and not get dismissed.
00:32:17.600 --> 00:32:19.940
But anyway, that's a subject
for a different podcast.
00:32:20.030 --> 00:32:20.270
Yeah.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.290
And then after 1954, basically
the football program is, 20 feet
00:32:24.290 --> 00:32:25.910
underwater and trying to stay afloat.
00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:30.160
There's debate over if the 1954 season is
even going to be canceled at first, or if
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.130
they're going to just have to cancel some
games where they're gonna be significantly
00:32:33.130 --> 00:32:35.080
outmanned and play a lesser schedule.
00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:39.898
But eventually the decision is made
by Gaines, and also Dean Leyburn had
00:32:39.898 --> 00:32:42.698
a large influence in this decision
from what I've read, to move away
00:32:42.698 --> 00:32:46.548
from subsidized athletics entirely
because other small southern schools
00:32:46.728 --> 00:32:48.438
were having similar financial issues.
00:32:48.648 --> 00:32:52.968
Obviously not the explosive cheating
scandal, but Sewanee and Center
00:32:53.228 --> 00:32:56.828
had also decided to move away from
subsidized athletics in recent years.
00:32:56.908 --> 00:33:00.448
So W&L leaves the Southern Conference.
00:33:00.628 --> 00:33:03.748
And it's also worth noting that at
this time the NCAA division structure
00:33:03.748 --> 00:33:05.668
as it is now, didn't exist yet.
00:33:06.048 --> 00:33:09.438
So, they kind of just drop off the
pages of the record books 'cause records
00:33:09.438 --> 00:33:12.558
were only really kept for the program
participating in Division I conferences.
00:33:12.918 --> 00:33:16.548
But they moved to, I think it's the
Central Athletic Conference, which is
00:33:16.818 --> 00:33:21.958
a defunct institution that they play
in for about 20 years on and off.
00:33:22.018 --> 00:33:25.858
But they're basically just filling
games with whoever they can that's also
00:33:25.858 --> 00:33:28.588
committed to non-scholarship football.
00:33:28.888 --> 00:33:32.978
And in 1972 NCAA Division III is formed.
00:33:33.368 --> 00:33:35.568
Washington and Lee becomes
one of the founding members.
00:33:35.828 --> 00:33:39.188
And in 1976 we joined, helped
found our current conference
00:33:39.188 --> 00:33:42.248
of the Old Dominion Athletic
Conference, 50 years ago this year.
00:33:43.188 --> 00:33:44.118
A good anniversary year.
00:33:44.388 --> 00:33:50.408
So what's the reaction among
your team of this 1950s decision?
00:33:50.408 --> 00:33:54.983
I mean, the Honor System scandal, as
well as the, subsidized athletics.
00:33:54.983 --> 00:33:58.338
Is that, 'cause I'm sure it's
known at least in some detail, is
00:33:58.338 --> 00:33:59.928
it a positive reflection on it?
00:33:59.928 --> 00:34:00.348
What do you think?
00:34:00.363 --> 00:34:01.293
It's definitely known.
00:34:01.453 --> 00:34:04.973
I think that, we don't really have
too many serious reflections on it.
00:34:05.083 --> 00:34:07.843
But I do think that overall we
recognize that as a positive thing
00:34:07.873 --> 00:34:10.723
for the experience we're looking
for as division III athletes.
00:34:11.358 --> 00:34:14.968
We do like to joke around like,
oh man, if 1954 football team they
00:34:14.968 --> 00:34:17.068
didn't have to cheat on all their
tests, we would be going to play at
00:34:17.068 --> 00:34:18.748
Alabama this week on college game day.
00:34:19.078 --> 00:34:23.348
But I think we all know that the quality
of subsidized athletics was never going
00:34:23.348 --> 00:34:26.828
to last at our institution and was
not financially feasible at the time.
00:34:27.248 --> 00:34:30.798
But I think that looking back on it, most
of our football players would be proud of
00:34:30.798 --> 00:34:37.048
the decision of our Executive Committee
and president to uphold the traditions and
00:34:37.048 --> 00:34:42.418
standards of the place that we live and
play for every Saturday with the Generals
00:34:42.418 --> 00:34:46.493
on the chest because I think it means a
lot to us, our school, and our community.
00:34:47.713 --> 00:34:48.043
Yeah.
00:34:48.073 --> 00:34:52.078
I think it really, as we talked about
at the beginning, Washington and Lee's
00:34:52.098 --> 00:34:57.388
athletes, student athletes are really
admirable and they're both academic and
00:34:57.688 --> 00:35:01.168
athletic excellence, their devotion,
practicing daily during the season.
00:35:01.168 --> 00:35:04.768
I mean, it takes more time
than any student club does.
00:35:05.018 --> 00:35:09.188
And so it's a real statement and,
had things played out differently
00:35:09.188 --> 00:35:14.098
in 1954, I think we would have
probably gone down the wrong route.
00:35:14.158 --> 00:35:16.548
And, who knows where our
program would be today.
00:35:16.548 --> 00:35:20.498
But, things happen for a reason and
it's good that we were able to come
00:35:20.498 --> 00:35:24.848
out of it, I think with our heads held
high rather than the other way around.
00:35:25.148 --> 00:35:31.163
Since the 1950s, what has, or even
since ODAC how has the football team,
00:35:31.163 --> 00:35:34.663
or perhaps even more broadly, other
athletics, I feel like today we have
00:35:34.663 --> 00:35:37.363
so many different sports at W&L.
00:35:37.463 --> 00:35:41.783
In fact, when I was a freshman I was
walking in third year where they have the
00:35:41.783 --> 00:35:45.583
various fields, courts and I was telling
my dad, oh yeah, we have this team and
00:35:45.583 --> 00:35:49.043
this team and there's all these PEs that
are offered that really introduce you to
00:35:49.043 --> 00:35:51.293
so many different sports and programs.
00:35:51.563 --> 00:35:53.543
It seems like we have so much to offer.
00:35:53.543 --> 00:35:57.223
My dad was surprised for this pretty
small school, having those resources.
00:35:57.553 --> 00:36:01.843
And you look at other division three
colleges that don't have the same
00:36:01.843 --> 00:36:05.053
financial resources that Washington
and Lee has, and I think their
00:36:05.053 --> 00:36:07.003
programs really suffer because of that.
00:36:07.003 --> 00:36:10.603
Because they don't have the equipment
and the sort of the financial resources.
00:36:10.603 --> 00:36:17.143
So what is the, you know, how do we
get from that 1950s, 1970s on to today?
00:36:17.143 --> 00:36:21.183
I mean, what are the, the sort of big
changes that are made or the things
00:36:21.183 --> 00:36:23.673
that help support, because clearly
you feel supported as an athlete.
00:36:23.673 --> 00:36:24.093
Absolutely.
00:36:24.633 --> 00:36:27.293
Yeah, I think that just the
university as a whole does a good
00:36:27.293 --> 00:36:28.853
job supporting our athletic programs.
00:36:28.903 --> 00:36:31.653
Honestly, in Division III I feel
like we have an opportunity to be
00:36:31.653 --> 00:36:35.183
very successful because we can offer
what a lot of other, programs can't
00:36:35.423 --> 00:36:39.623
in terms of our, alumni network, our
educational experience, and also the
00:36:39.623 --> 00:36:41.573
fact that we play a national schedule.
00:36:41.573 --> 00:36:45.053
Whereas some other Division III
elite schools, like the Northeast
00:36:45.053 --> 00:36:46.253
schools only play each other.
00:36:46.253 --> 00:36:49.563
But, you know, we have the opportunity
to and we have for a long time to
00:36:49.563 --> 00:36:53.303
play, some schools that are more
geographically located near to us
00:36:53.303 --> 00:36:55.643
and we can have the opportunity
to compete for national titles.
00:36:55.643 --> 00:36:59.033
The NESCAC I know in football they
can't compete for national titles.
00:36:59.273 --> 00:37:01.643
That's changing next year,
but for the past 50 years they
00:37:01.643 --> 00:37:02.573
haven't had the ability to.
00:37:02.623 --> 00:37:05.823
I also think the university just does a
really good job of supporting us, putting
00:37:05.823 --> 00:37:08.343
the right coaches and trainers in place.
00:37:08.673 --> 00:37:12.383
And yeah, I mean, I think we have great
programs, like our men's lacrosse team,
00:37:12.573 --> 00:37:16.743
men's golf, women's soccer, a bunch of
others that I'm not as familiar with
00:37:16.743 --> 00:37:19.553
as I should be, but I promise I'll
get better over the next three years.
00:37:20.043 --> 00:37:24.933
But yeah, I mean, we do a great job of
all around being really good at having a
00:37:24.993 --> 00:37:28.703
really holistic athletics program that's
really, really good at a lot of things.
00:37:28.733 --> 00:37:32.033
And I don't know if you've ever seen
this, but every year they do, like
00:37:32.033 --> 00:37:36.473
in the ODAC they do like a overall
kind of best athletics program.
00:37:36.523 --> 00:37:41.068
And I think year in and year out,
we're at that top spot because we're
00:37:41.068 --> 00:37:44.608
so good in so many different areas
and nationally, last year I think we
00:37:44.608 --> 00:37:46.233
were top five, I think we were 3 or 4.
00:37:46.303 --> 00:37:50.713
Yeah, I recall as a student, it seemed
like there's always this prize being
00:37:50.733 --> 00:37:55.498
won or this title, like it was, I always
sort of, would say we're the, the best
00:37:55.628 --> 00:37:57.098
athletic program you've never heard of.
00:37:57.148 --> 00:37:58.858
That's what I would tell my family.
00:37:59.098 --> 00:38:01.708
And you know, a statement on
the resilience of the team to
00:38:01.708 --> 00:38:06.828
sort of evolve so much over time
from the 1872 game to today.
00:38:06.928 --> 00:38:11.673
I think who we need to credit most,
aside from just the financial resources
00:38:11.673 --> 00:38:16.093
by the school and the good coaches,,
who's made that possible and sort of
00:38:16.123 --> 00:38:17.653
sustain that, and that's the alumni.
00:38:17.683 --> 00:38:21.453
That really more than anyone else, if
you go to any athletic game, it's the
00:38:21.453 --> 00:38:23.583
alumni that show up in droves to watch.
00:38:23.793 --> 00:38:26.823
And, you know, that's the case for
athletic programs at other schools
00:38:27.013 --> 00:38:32.043
but there's some alumni that really
care a lot about sports at W&L, that
00:38:32.043 --> 00:38:36.033
support the programs that recruit,
and I'm gonna call out one of them,
00:38:36.253 --> 00:38:38.023
just because I know we both know him.
00:38:38.473 --> 00:38:42.403
Jay Dorman, who I always say
is sort of the prime example of
00:38:42.403 --> 00:38:43.663
a Washington and Lee General.
00:38:43.663 --> 00:38:48.003
I mean, he bleeds the colors of
the Generals, and he does so much
00:38:48.003 --> 00:38:49.653
to promote the football team.
00:38:49.953 --> 00:38:53.513
For you as a junior in high school
when you first are learning about
00:38:53.543 --> 00:38:57.193
the W&L Football program, what
role did the alumni play in that?
00:38:57.703 --> 00:38:58.123
Yeah.
00:38:58.133 --> 00:39:02.103
My first exposure to W&L was when I
visited the summer before my senior year.
00:39:02.133 --> 00:39:04.563
I think it was like a week after
I wrapped up my junior year.
00:39:04.993 --> 00:39:08.323
Mean, obviously the campus speaks
for itself, the tradition, you can
00:39:08.323 --> 00:39:10.123
just feel it baked into the bricks.
00:39:10.663 --> 00:39:15.533
But, I met Mr. Dorman when I visited
for a game the fall of my senior year.
00:39:15.773 --> 00:39:17.873
He has all of his ODAC
championship rings on.
00:39:17.873 --> 00:39:22.533
He gives the whole spiel and, like,
there is nothing that can sell you
00:39:22.533 --> 00:39:25.893
on Washington and Lee if you're not
already sold more than his passion
00:39:25.893 --> 00:39:27.483
'cause he knows what he's talking about.
00:39:27.633 --> 00:39:30.383
And I mean, he believes that
with every bit of himself.
00:39:30.463 --> 00:39:32.693
He talked about the Honor System.
00:39:32.763 --> 00:39:33.643
That also struck me.
00:39:33.973 --> 00:39:38.103
Because the first thing was not like, you
know, look at the rings on my fingers,
00:39:38.103 --> 00:39:39.423
how many games we've won or whatever.
00:39:39.423 --> 00:39:42.473
It was the first thing was, how many
schools in the country do you think
00:39:42.473 --> 00:39:45.703
are gonna give you, take home exams
and nobody's gonna cheat on them?
00:39:45.703 --> 00:39:48.653
How many schools in the country do
you think you're gonna have this
00:39:48.653 --> 00:39:51.443
level of trust and ability to build
a relationship with your professor
00:39:51.653 --> 00:39:53.663
because they know the type of person
you are 'cause they know the type
00:39:53.663 --> 00:39:55.223
of person this university attracts?
00:39:55.643 --> 00:39:58.893
And then obviously moved into
talking about how generous the
00:39:58.893 --> 00:40:01.468
university is with financial aid,
which obviously has made possible
00:40:01.503 --> 00:40:04.043
in large part by alumni donations.
00:40:04.463 --> 00:40:08.213
But yeah, I mean, I already pretty
much knew I was going to be coming here
00:40:08.273 --> 00:40:12.243
when I visited, but that interaction
with Mr. Dorman stuck with me.
00:40:12.363 --> 00:40:18.333
And definitely was a factor in my decision
because, why wouldn't you want to go to
00:40:18.333 --> 00:40:23.493
a place where someone can be that deeply
enamored with it and believe it that much?
00:40:23.543 --> 00:40:27.923
It just speaks to the general alumni
passion for Washington and Lee.
00:40:27.923 --> 00:40:29.933
You know, that's why The
Generals Redoubt exists.
00:40:29.933 --> 00:40:34.213
That's why we were able to be recording a
podcast right now in a podcast studio at
00:40:34.213 --> 00:40:38.893
a historic home that was purchased because
alumni care so much about the values
00:40:38.893 --> 00:40:43.933
and the traditions that are so unique to
Washington and Lee, that define and build
00:40:43.933 --> 00:40:46.663
character for Washington and Lee Generals.
00:40:46.913 --> 00:40:50.768
Without the alumni, you don't have
the Honor System, you don't have
00:40:50.768 --> 00:40:52.478
the sports programs that you have.
00:40:52.478 --> 00:40:56.018
I mean, the alumni support things
financially, but more than anything,
00:40:56.018 --> 00:40:59.388
they support it, ideologically by
going out and promoting and telling
00:40:59.668 --> 00:41:02.428
their friends and people they
meet, hey, you should come to W&L.
00:41:02.478 --> 00:41:06.108
The number of people Jay's recruited
probably can't be counted at this point.
00:41:06.328 --> 00:41:10.778
And, that's just the amazing thing about
the Washington and Lee community, and it's
00:41:10.778 --> 00:41:15.198
what The Generals Redoubt really hopes
that this podcast, makes clear to people,
00:41:15.198 --> 00:41:18.748
is why it's called an Alumni History
of Washington and Lee, this program.
00:41:19.028 --> 00:41:23.048
And that's because it's the history
that alumni are really interested in.
00:41:23.048 --> 00:41:28.373
It's the history as I'm an alum telling
about, and this is just sort of scraping
00:41:28.373 --> 00:41:30.583
the surface of athletic history at W&L.
00:41:30.843 --> 00:41:34.533
I hope we can continue more of these
types of conversations going forward.
00:41:34.783 --> 00:41:40.903
But just keeping in mind how important
every alum is to the perpetuation of
00:41:40.903 --> 00:41:45.593
Washington and Lee's values and that the
sports program is really one of those
00:41:45.593 --> 00:41:47.883
great attributes that we have to offer.
00:41:48.349 --> 00:41:50.929
Do you have any concluding
remarks for us, Thomas?
00:41:51.024 --> 00:41:54.659
It's an incredible experience to be
an athlete at Washington and Lee.
00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:57.839
I'm grateful for everybody that's came
before and helped make the current
00:41:57.839 --> 00:42:02.669
experience be, what it is and how
incredible it is for I think all of us.
00:42:03.104 --> 00:42:03.254
Yeah.
00:42:03.259 --> 00:42:07.039
It's refreshing that what sold you on
Washington Lee was the Honor System.
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:10.779
And I'm sure as you continue through
your career here you've got, I guess,
00:42:10.779 --> 00:42:14.189
three and a half more years that you'll
really come to appreciate it even more and
00:42:14.189 --> 00:42:18.689
hopefully encourage more people that might
be on the fence to make the same choice.
00:42:18.689 --> 00:42:22.649
So thanks so much and thank you listeners
for tuning in and stay tuned for our
00:42:22.649 --> 00:42:25.289
next episode to release in about a month.
00:42:25.319 --> 00:42:25.739
Thanks.
00:42:25.919 --> 00:42:26.159
Bye.