Pornography Nearly Ended Their Marriage. The Temple Rebuilt It.

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A teenager with an unfiltered phone has more access to explicit content in five minutes than every powerful person throughout history had combined.
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September is Recovery Awareness Month, and here on Temple Bound, we're giving it three full episodes from three completely different angles.
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First, a married couple tells their own story firsthand.
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A marriage that nearly ended over this exact addiction and the years-long road that turned it into something neither of them withered.
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Then we're gonna hear a bishop who's heard more confessions than he can count, who's gonna transform the way that you hear one word forever.
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Pride.
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And then lastly, a therapist who's watched pornography addiction to destroy men for years, and who will tell you it was never about the pornography.
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It was about the pain.
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Nobody ever taught him the name.
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So whatever you or someone you love is walking through right now, there's a way back, and it runs straight into the arms of the Savior.
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Stick with us this moment.
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It's some of the most honest work we put on the show.
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Spoiler alert, this episode is more like a documentary of a miracle.
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Corey was seven years old the first time he saw Pernard.
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It took him 19 years to tell his wife the truth.
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And Nally found out anyway from something left on his own in the middle of the night.
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And she described that moment with one word.
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This month on Temple Bound, we're focusing on addiction recovery, and Nellie and Corey are telling the story of what came after that night.
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Years of counseling, a weekly drive to the temple, and the moment that turned a marriage on the brink of divorce into what they now call the best of friends.
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And I'm telling you guys, at the end of this episode, you are gonna see a miracle to the point where they are going to admit that they would do it again because of how they have come to the Savior and what they've learned about themselves and each other.
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So if you've ever wondered whether Tress can actually come back after something like this, stay with them to the end.
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Here's Natalie and Corey.
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Natalie and Corey, welcome to Temple Bound.
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Corey, let's start with you.
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What is it that you would like the audience to leave feeling as a result of hearing today's episode?
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Um, I mean the biggest thing is I'd like uh other people who are kind of going through this to feel like they're not alone and that it's possible.
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Uh that that's I I was just uh we were talking and I was I feel like I went through this and I was such a long time in it that I didn't believe that I was able to to get out of it.
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Like I never thought that I'd be able to to be out and I don't know, we just about a year out from from when we started uh down this road of recovery, I all of a sudden was able to look back and be like, wow, I'm actually doing this.
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Like I I actually it sounds like a little bit of a surprise.
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It it was.
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I I I never thought like I I literally thought that it was impossible.
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Because how many years did you try on your own?
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Oh years.
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I mean, basically from the time I was like 12 or 13 years old.
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This became part of your core identity, the the idea that you couldn't at some at a certain point it feels like there was a lack of hope that you could overcome this pornography fiction.
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Yeah.
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And and you I always kind of clung to to like hopefully someday, you know, something will happen and and I'll be able to, but but it it affected me not just in in dealing with pornography.
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I mean my whole life, like like I don't have the ability to do things.
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So it was a confidence shooter, tons of things.
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And um, I don't know, to finally get out and and see like, oh, there is there is light and there is a possibility of living a life uh in recovery.
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And you know, not perfect, but but uh actually, you know, in recovery and and doing and striving and and all that.
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Like it's a whole different world, and you just see things in a completely different light uh on this side of it as opposed to to before.
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What's one word you'd use to describe life now compared to life then?
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If you had to use one word.
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One word I would say brighter.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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Natalie, what would you want people listening to leave this episode feeling or thinking?
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I think from the loved one's perspective that the atonement is available for your healing as well.
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So it's not just for repentance and it's not, you know, but like I felt the Spirit prompt me so many times to pray for that access.
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I read Jesus the Christ, I was like, I was really diving into getting to know Jesus Christ and the atonement.
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And every time I would pray, I would ask for the power of the atonement to help me forgive, to help me be loving, to help me whatever.
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And and I witnessed that miracle in myself.
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And so it it helped give me hope for a lot of things, like not just this situation, but anytime I'm in trouble, I can access the power of the atonement.
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It doesn't have to just be when I'm doing wrong.
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And um, so yeah, I think that would be my biggest message.
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I have another one too, sorry, aside, but please go, please.
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But um, our counselor, we went and saw a marriage counselor, and she told us to remember who the real enemy is.
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She'd always tell us that every session.
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And she's like, You you're gonna be so much more powerful fighting this hand in hand than fighting each other and and then trying to fight the addiction on the side.
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So she's like, Satan's enemy, you guys are in this together.
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And that just changed our whole approach.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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I just want to highlight the the amazing end in mind that we're starting this discussion with because there's we were talking before we hit record how there's people who are in the middle or beginning of this journey or even quietly suffering.
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And there's that feeling of hopelessness that Corey, you hit right out of the gate that like your life from that time on had a degree of feeling less than or or or failing because you tried to handle this independently because you didn't want to shine the light, but today we're here to shine light.
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And that light is is one word hope.
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So thank you for being here.
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I I can't tell you how humbled I am that you guys have the courage.
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You reached out to us.
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Which is weird.
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Which is the best.
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By the way, I was I literally, this is true.
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I I won't get emotional, I promise, but I will.
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This this show has been that where if there's the value that it comes from is God.
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He he inspired you to reach out to me after your dad, Keith Harr, was on the show.
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And um, and when you sent that message out, I didn't know what it started because the whole month of September for you know recognizing people in recovery, we are are now doing a theme based on the fact that the Spirit told you to reach out to me, and other guests have all been almost like just brought to the forward because and for me it's humbling because what I see happening is God's hand and helping people who are listening.
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So people who are listening, there there's magic, and magic's the wrong word, but it's it's hard to not use that word.
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There are miracles that are happening behind the scenes, and I don't even know who you guys are who are listening.
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So, whoever you are, you are loved and you are important, and let's get right into today's story.
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So, where does this story begin?
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Man, do you want to take this one or do you want me to?
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Um, I I don't know.
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It kind of begins with a lot of people.
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Let's talk about the beginning of your story, but then I think I think the story of of how we get healing starts with your involvement.
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So just give us a brief overview of your background.
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I mean it started for me.
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Uh I was seven years old when I was first exposed to pornography.
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Like friend had a girly magazine and and and uh seven, you know, and I remember being so excited to get baptized so that I could like have that washed away, you know.
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And uh and then you know, like nothing really until I hit about 12 or 13, and then just you know technology started to to play a role, and it was just it was just rough.
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And I remember I went to a bishop when I was 14 and talked to him, and you know, and it it it's hard to say, you know, like I wouldn't say it was a great experience.
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Like I it was very much uh like okay.
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It was early on.
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It was early on.
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And bless his heart, he didn't know how to do it.
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He didn't know, and so yeah.
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So I I felt I felt punished, and it and but I felt like yeah, like let's do it.
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That's what I deserved.
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Let's do it.
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And so um, but anyway, I I struggled even after talking to the bishop, and so uh I was like, well, you know, that didn't help, and so I'm not gonna, you know, that's not a necessary part.
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And that that was uh I learned that at a at a at that time that okay, well, you know, just because you tell someone doesn't mean that it's gonna actually end up helping you.
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Because I talked to my parents and I talked to the bishop and stuff, and so anyway, problem never really resolved.
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I turned 18 and uh my parents were like, all right, time to get the Melchizedek priesthood and everything.
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I'm like, let's have a talk.
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And so then I talked to them again, and uh, and then it that was literally like a week before I left for college.
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Uh and so, you know, because I I have a late birthday, and so I didn't even turn 19 until more than a year after I graduated high school.
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Yeah.
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So I went to to college and um worked with the bishop over there and just kind of just was kind of like floating along.
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I had a really good group of friends that were all returned missionaries that kind of just took me in under my wing, under their wing.
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Wow.
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And uh I had one friend who we'd go to the library and do like companionship scripture study.
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And he he knew I was struggling, he didn't know all the details, but anyway, so I worked through that and I finally got to a point where I felt mostly in control and uh got my mission call, went on a mission, loved my mission because that was so structured and there's so much spirit, it was a lot easier to control any any impulse or anything, and so that was just two of the best years.
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Hard, like mission was tough, all that stuff, but not as hard as what you probably were suffering from before.
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Like it's like it's almost wonder if it like the relief of not having that constant exposure and temptation was worth the challenge, like it's a good swap of difficulty.
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Oh yeah, yeah.
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And and so that was great.
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Came home and almost immediately, like I don't even know if I was a week home before I had I'd fallen right back into it, and I had told myself, I'm not gonna do that.
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Like, here's all the things I'm gonna do to make sure I don't do that, and then the availability just boom, just just knocked me down.
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And so, um, and again, I just internalized it all.
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Like, I I didn't want anybody to know.
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I and this is one thing that I think a lot of men suffer from is that we kind of think we're unique.
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Like our situation my situation is unique, like what I'm suffering from is unique, and the way that I'm dealing with it is unique, and I don't have to go through all the steps that everybody else does because I'm unique, I'm different, and you know, I've got this special relationship with God, and I can just work through the business, and and he understands, and and it's just they're they're lies that that Satan tells us to keep us in isolation, and addiction flourishes in isolation, like that is where it it is allowed to grow, and and when we are isolated and we isolate ourselves because nobody wants to talk about this.
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Like we have discovered that.
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Like, how do you how do you go and tell somebody that you know that uh you have a problem and it's a very even societally, even though like uh like sex and pornography and things are very openly discussed, this is still not something that in society people are very open about.
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And so as being a problem.
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Yeah.
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It's weird how like extreme sexualization and pornography are in society.
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On the one hand, it's like all that's everywhere.
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It's everywhere, and you know, like having most of my friends not be members of the church, they're like, What's wrong with pornography?
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Like there's almost but then but they don't want to talk about the details.
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It's like there's but then there's this other thing called and you never talk about it.
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Yeah, it's this real it feels very controlled by the adversary.
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Oh yeah, like it's it's an all the ways in your face, and in other ways, how dare you never don't ever talk about this.
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And it's interesting because like I think what's unique about both of you is that it does take both people to be able to be open about it because if Corey wants to talk about it, but you're not feeling comfortable about it, that that shuts it down.
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And and by the way, people who are listening, I'm not judging that.
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I'm not saying that's a wrong thing at all.
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There's no wrongness in what I'm describing.
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I'm just highlighting the fact that with both of you being comfortable to talk about it, it produces an additional amount of light that is able to be seen.
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And that is what is needed, is just as much light as we can get on these things.
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Which is partly why I reached out to you and that was spiritually prompted.
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Like I did it even without telling Corey.
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Like I was like, I just felt so strongly and I kept fighting it because I was like, who asked someone to be on their podcast?
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That's so weird.
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Like I can't.
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Yeah, I think the topic nullifies any pride in the city.
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Like I can only tell people my story.
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Yeah, but I was just like, I just have to.
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I'm just gonna reach out, and if it's no, it's no, and then it's done.
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And and then as soon as I got a yes, like really quickly, I was like, so Corey.
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I jumped up and down.
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I literally got your email and I went, no way.
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Because for me, that's what this show is about.
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It's about personalizing these experiences.
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Like we talked about the thing that I'm learning about the covenant path is that it always feels unique to us in a way that we can't compare to others or we shouldn't.
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And it it it's like it feels broken at times.
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Yeah, no one ever feels like their life has gone to plan, and that's the whole point of the covenant path.
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Yeah.
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So I love that you're willing to share this angle because when we go to the temple, this is what we're going for is the light and knowledge we need to help us during those times to come to Christ, which we'll get to.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah, Corey, what else would you want to say about your your story at this point?
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When did when did you meet Natalie?
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Like when did that come into play?
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So, I mean, I met her what, two and a half months, three months after I got home off my mission, and then we were married in six months, five months.
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We were fast.
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Yeah.
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So it was it was we met in January.
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Um cheesy as it sounds, we always talk about it was love at first sight.
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Like just we met each other and we knew.
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Yep.
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Like, yeah.
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Powerful.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It was crazy.
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Three months later, we were married.
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Yeah.
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So it was quick.
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Going into marriage, you know, knowing that you were having this thing that you were struggling with behind the scenes, what were your thoughts of what married life was going to be like?
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Did you think it was going to resolve the issue?
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Absolutely.
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I think that's a common misconception.
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Because I'm sexually active, I'm no longer going to have temptation to look at pornography.
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Yeah, yep.
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And and that I think that that's a huge thing.
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I think that most young men have that misconception that, like, oh, now it's over.
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And and I went into it and I was like, oh yeah, we're done.
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I'm done.
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Everything's gonna be great.
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Like, I'm gonna be able to move on and and become the man that I always wanted to be.
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And and it's just not the case.
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And so it just keeps cropping up because and I I've learned this through through our counseling that addiction to pornography is not necessarily about sex.
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Like it's not about um it's more of a a coping mechanism that you go to to deal with problems in your life.
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So stress.
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It's a dopamine hit like anything else.
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Yeah, so so it's like it's like taking drugs.
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And so when you get stressed, when you get down, sad, depressed, whatever, it is something that uh chemically will will give you a boost.
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And so well, and let's call it what it is.
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It's not a boost, it's a boost on a boost on a boost.
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It's I think we re- you know, this is biology.
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This is survival, it's it's optimum.
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Or as we would say in the gospel of Jesus Christ, this is the one of the greatest, if not the greatest, power we were given is to create life.
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And so the that power is so powerful, it's the most powerful thing that it can it can temporarily distract or numb or help us, you know, shift in ways that is not um obviously it's meant to connect people.
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Right, right.
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But in this case, I do want to ask this question because you know, I think there are people, maybe wives, for example, and I don't want to I don't want to stereotype these situations because obviously women can have addictions as well.
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So if there's anyone listening, I just think that there's a relationship here that tends to be fluid in the sense that like the biology male's biology tends to lend you know lend towards this more so just in general, and that can be that can be measured.
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The idea is like what is the separation between pornography addiction and sex?
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I think you mentioned that pornography is is not always about sex.
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But Natalie from your perspective, I think you know, from your understanding of this now, how what would you explain to a woman who's going through this with her husband?
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Like, what is that separation when it's like how can I separate this to Yeah, what's the difference between them looking at porn and and not having it be about sex?
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Right.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:40.960
Um I think it was helpful when we were in counseling to have our counselor say, she asked me, I was, you know, crying to her, like this this is not the marriage I thought it was gonna be, you know, like all these things my life didn't turn out the way I thought it was going to.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.200
And she was like, Well, how long has Corey had this addiction?
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:44.640
And I was like, Since he was seven.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:46.240
She's like, so it's not about you.
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:47.519
And I was like, Oh.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.359
And I like that just stuck with me forever after that.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:53.759
She's like, he had this well before he met you.
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.920
This doesn't have anything to do with you.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:08.319
And and I also happened to be talking to a lot of people because we did classes, we did, we did a lot of stuff, and there I came across beautiful women whose husbands were involved in this, and I came across amazing women.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.200
They were really good to their husbands who were involved in this.
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:12.400
They had good relationships.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:30.559
They, you know, so it wasn't just like it's not just for people whose relationships are suffering or whose sex life is suffering or who um, you know, I I don't know, whatever problems people think are associated, because sometimes the husbands will even say that, like, you know, maybe if we had more sex I wouldn't have this problem or whatever.
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:31.119
Yeah, right.
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.839
Like they they shame the wife when they feel shamed.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:41.680
And and I I realize that it doesn't matter like what your situation is or how desirable you are or anything.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.279
It it doesn't have anything to do with that.
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:44.559
It's very chemical.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:53.680
And and it's just like drugs or drinking or eating too much, or we're coping with life in unhealthy ways, and that's just another unhealthy way to cope.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:53.920
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:00.240
And technology has brought that unhealthy coping mechanism so for the forefront and so easy, so much more than anything else.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.000
Doesn't make it okay, but it doesn't.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:05.359
Yeah, we're not validating the act, we're we're recognizing that.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.039
Doesn't have to do with the woman.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:07.279
Yeah.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:07.680
Yeah.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:08.799
So I appreciate that perspective.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:15.440
I want to make sure we balance these angles because there is a lot of understandable hurt that's existing out there.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.000
And um it two things can be true at the same time.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:18.240
Right.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.960
Like these when we're talking about these angles, these two things can be true.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:26.319
When we talk about Corey's journey, we're not invalidating any of the pain or suffering that the wife goes through in this case.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:26.559
Right.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.559
So um so Corey, you get married, you think it's gonna be resolved because you're now you know sexually active, and it doesn't get better.
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:41.759
No, no, and and pornography is and again, we most of what we've we we were gonna talk about, we learned through through this like recovery process.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:43.119
I didn't know this at the time.
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:51.039
But pornography is a degenerative disease, like it it will always get worse unless you resolve it.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.519
And so it just keeps going and going and going.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.200
And so your your usage will get worse, your behavior will get worse.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:07.920
Like that it just is is something the more that you're in it, the more you're gonna travel down these paths that are just not not good.
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.880
And and you won't you won't get better.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.920
And and that's the lie that I kept telling myself.
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:15.359
It's like, oh, I'm getting better.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.839
You know, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna well, I'm gonna change this, and now I'm gonna do this, and now I'm gonna do this.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.720
And none of it helped.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.559
Like, I tried everything.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.799
I tried everything but what I knew I should do to to resolve the problem.
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:27.519
Which was what?
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.119
Which was to confide, to, to open up and talk to people.
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:36.240
And and I even got online, I was like, how do I overcome an pornography addiction?
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.000
And every single place was like, you gotta have somebody on your team.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.480
You gotta have to talk to somebody, you have to tell somebody.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.039
And I knew I needed to talk to my bishop, I knew I needed to talk to my wife.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.960
I was terrified.
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.960
Like, like the when you say terrified, you mean terrified.
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:53.599
Horror.
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:54.400
I mean like horror.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:01.039
Like, like I would rather, like, almost rather die than than than tell.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:05.440
Like that, that that's the level of of where I was at.
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.119
And and you already felt so much shame.
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:10.880
Like you had internalize all this shame.
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.759
You didn't want me reflecting that back is what I understood.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.000
That's the motivation I think people need to hear.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:21.119
When people see that it's been done secretly for years, they don't understand that in almost every case.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:26.559
I don't I can't, I don't again, I want to be very careful not to like standardize this thing because it's very unique.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.000
Everyone's journey is different, but there is a common experience of men.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:37.440
The reason they're trying to not share it is because they have the perception it's gonna create additional harm, and how dare they after they already have done such a horrible thing.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:50.400
So they go and they try to do all the things behind the scenes in this like F this fruitless effort to try to resolve it because they deep down know they have to do the thing that they're not wanting to do because at that point, am I gonna be still be married?
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:51.440
Like, what is that?
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:52.880
What are the consequences behind this?
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.279
Not to mention the fact I'm going to damage and hurt her.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.759
Right right now, in her ignorance, she may feel yeah, you may.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.079
Confuse it with like, well, at least she doesn't know.
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:02.480
Right.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:04.720
And that's of course what perpetuates the addiction.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:05.039
Right.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:17.039
Well, and you'll say, you know, like, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop, and then I can go and tell her, like, hey, you know, for a long time I had this addiction, and I I used to do this, but but I'm okay now.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.559
I've I've resolved it, and so so you don't need to worry.
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.079
And and you can't do that.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:29.039
Like it it's I I literally think that doing it that way is is almost impossible.
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:30.880
Because I would say it is.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:31.440
Yeah.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.519
The science on this, the research is clear.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.799
Like you cannot, you cannot recover this on your own period.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:42.799
And and I just especially with the availability, I mean it's a it's a drug without having to go to a dealer.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.799
You know, it it's it's that it's available right now, right now.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:53.920
We can pull up our phones right now and see whatever, yeah, like whatever we can invent can be there.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:54.400
Yeah.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:55.519
Yeah.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:11.039
And so we progressed, uh, I progressed through that and and you know, and and it went it went even to a point uh beyond pornography where it was uh right there with infidelity.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:29.279
And um and that's why I say it's it's degenerative, but like it will lead to to worse and worse behavior until now you're sitting there wondering, you know, how did I get here?
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:39.440
Because and I I told her this, I was like, I'm sitting here at 26 years old when when this was or 27, and um like this is not the man I wanted to be.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:45.039
When I was a kid, like I did I I despise men like this who I am right now.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.920
Yeah, and and it just just just killed me.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.599
And and and again, going back to that terror, like I was just so scared to to say anything.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.480
And you know, I was the young men's president at the time.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:57.039
Oh yeah.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:10.960
I was you know, I I'm from a small town, I felt like everybody uh had a level of respect, I had a good reputation, all this stuff, and and I was like, now I'm gonna have to like I don't know if I can do that.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:12.880
What did you think of yourself at the time?
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:14.720
Uh very low.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.880
Like I I did not think that I was worth much.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:26.400
And and and it was reflected in a whole bunch of different different things in my life, but I just I had a very low self-esteem.
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.680
If you could use one word to describe what you thought of yourself at that time.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:36.240
Gross.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:37.440
Got it.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:38.079
Thank you.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.200
So thank you, Corey.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:46.799
I think this is a great point now to pivot over to your where you get you know aware.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.400
So let's go to your side of the story, and you've given a stake talk on this.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:57.839
And by the way, I just want to also, before we move on, double down on this idea of like if it doesn't get handled, it will always get worse.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:05.440
I have a dear friend in our stake who is very open, and he actually spoke at state conference about the fact that it led to infidelity.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:14.640
And um now as part like once you get to it, I mean it's like at that point now we're talking about compounding negative interest in the worst way.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.319
It that things just keep leading.
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:17.920
It it it's gonna come out.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.119
It's going to come out.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:19.519
Right.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:20.559
It's inevitable.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:20.799
Right.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:26.000
So whether or not we are in charge of that with courage or not is the only agency we might have in this journey.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.039
That's a good point.
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:28.880
So let's let's pass it over to you, Natalie.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.960
Where do you get where did you how did you find out?
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:36.640
So randomly, I I I knew something was going on.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:39.440
I knew that I was losing him.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:43.119
I could feel his lack of presence in our home, and in particular with me.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:50.400
And that I think that's what made our journey so hurtful, but also like possible to do it together.
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:53.200
Was we've been best friends since day one.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:04.079
Just like we love to be together, we laugh together, we we we didn't have like issues in our marriage at this point, and so that that I knew of.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:15.920
And so I could feel him like pulling away from me, and I could feel him pulling away from my kids, and I was so confused, and I was just like, like I'd always try and call him back, like like pay attention, or get off your phone, or like what are you doing?
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:23.039
You know, this isn't you, and because he was such a present father and husband for a while, even though he had been battling this addiction the whole time.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.519
Eventually it progressed to a point where you were starting to lose him.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:32.799
Yeah, starting to lose him, and and we've talked about that, and he said, like, you felt more shame like the closer you were to us.
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.759
Yeah, so it was like that that guilt would like burn him.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.519
So he'd just like pull away, and then he couldn't.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.440
It's easier to deal with it not being too emotionally close.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:44.160
Yeah, because you felt fake.
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:44.640
Yeah.
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:45.680
Yeah.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:54.319
So so I could sense that, and and um I found something on his phone one time and it was just like a picture, and I was like, what is this?
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:55.920
you know, and he was like, Oh, nothing.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.880
Like it was just a quick like it's nothing.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.799
And and I had no I had no clue about the pornography.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.359
Let's tell let's let's double click on that real quick.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.000
What was your understanding and thought-up process around what was your exposure to pornography before you got married?
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:13.920
What was your understanding of it?
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:20.880
So just to like put it in perspective, growing up, I was the kid without a phone when everyone else had one.
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.160
Like we were that family.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.599
So I was like so sheltered, it wasn't even funny.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.200
Your dad's an institute teacher.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:27.599
Right.
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:29.680
We have he's on he's been on a previous episode.
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.240
Go listen to Keith Harr's episode, Unbelievable.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.279
Talks about raising parents raising children through the covenants.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:35.759
Yes.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.400
Um uh one of our top-downloaded episodes, by the way.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:40.720
Oh very, very well received.
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.359
And so in that space, it's almost like there was a degree of shelteredness though.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.200
Like there's just kind of balancing it out.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:48.640
And we always tease them about it.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:49.759
He said that on a podcast.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:51.599
We're like, we're the Amish family.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:52.960
Yes, yes.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.079
I mean, we wouldn't even like we didn't watch television at all.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:56.319
Yeah.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.000
Like we watched movies and they were controlled, and we didn't like listen to swear words ever.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.400
Like if a movie had a swear word, we wouldn't watch it.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.000
Like that was where we were at.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:06.559
By the way.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.599
And it was intense.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:24.319
I I need to highlight the the value of this for people who are listening who aren't relating to you, in the sense that like you do represent an extreme version of what most women do experience though, because as sheltered as you were, I think women are gonna extra relate to this this like initial reaction you hear when it comes to life.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:24.799
Right.
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.279
And not right, like not everyone has that.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:28.319
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:38.799
So so anyway, um again, the spirit, and like oddly enough, I had come across a book about pornography.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:44.000
Um I think my dad had been reading it to help his seminary students.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:49.759
Like he was like, This is a problem among kids, and I need to understand like what's going on with them.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.519
It's called The Drug of the New Millennia or something like that.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:59.839
Anyway, um, for whatever reason, I was like, I would like to read that book.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.599
This was before I even knew anything.
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:01.920
Wow.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.640
And and I was like, I have boys, we have four or five boys, we have five boys and one girl.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.440
And I just had my fits on like, how many do I have to read?
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:10.799
Um we have five boys.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.839
So I was like, I for my boys' sake, I need to read this.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:19.359
Like, I need to know what they're facing, you know, having zero idea that my husband was battling this at the time.
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.680
And and so my dad's like, yeah, read it.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:28.160
And and it gave me an understanding of what pornography actually is versus like this is so personal to me.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:33.599
And it it talked about how it is a drug, and it was very like talked about the science behind it and just a lot of things like that.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:39.519
I read, yeah, read the whole book, and a few months later, was it a few months after I read that?
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.119
It was like God had prepared me just enough that I would stay with him.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:44.000
Goddess.
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:44.319
You know?
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:46.079
Because so let's talk about the initial reaction.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:46.400
Yeah.
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:47.599
So how did you find out?
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:48.799
I found it on his phone.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.960
Like I found like something so explicit I couldn't he couldn't explain it away.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:30:02.880
And he and again, kind of a miracle because I don't usually go through his phone, but mine had been dead, and I was like, hey, can I just like be on your phone since you're going to bed?
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:03.680
Which you never do.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:04.880
Which I never do.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:06.880
He had always been deleting everything.
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:08.480
He was very vigilant about that.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:15.119
And so it just happened to be this one little thing that was left on there that I found that was like, what is this?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:16.799
So I woke him up in the middle of the night.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:21.759
It was like, I don't know, 12 o'clock at night or something, and I was like, hey, like, what is this?
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:28.400
You know, and I still remember his face when he woke up, he like looked at me and it was like he was facing death.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:39.200
Like he was so scared and so tired and like dysregulated from being woken up like that that he was just like couldn't think of anything on the spot.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:39.920
That's how I felt.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:40.400
Is that what I'm saying?
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:43.039
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's what the what I interpreted that as.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:48.880
In a good way, like you because like if you if she had said, Hey, I found something you're from, we need to talk tonight, you could have thought of all sorts of stories to cover.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:50.880
I the circumstances were perfect.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.440
Because I don't know if I would have had the courage.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:00.079
Wow.
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.880
And so the fact that it happened, I'm like, and I I was at a low point.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:10.240
Like like professionally, uh spiritually, mentally, emotionally, everything.
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.640
Like I was just, I was at that point.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.319
We were having to face up a house, we were so stressed, yeah.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:24.960
And and I was just beat down to I felt like so low, and that happened, and I was just like, like, I don't even want to fight it anymore.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:26.559
Like, forget it, I'll just tell you.
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.640
So that lined up perfectly for me, for her to find that because I was like Did you tell her that night?
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.759
Sort of.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.960
Yeah, so it was not like a full confession.
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:38.400
A full confession at all.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.200
But it I think like it was like, yeah, I looked at that.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:41.599
Ugh.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:42.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.799
And then and then I started to recognize the opportunity.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:48.480
Like the door is open.
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:49.599
The door is open.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.160
Well, and I think like again in that moment when I first found out, I was shocked and like, oh my goodness.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.000
But I I still chalk it up to the spirit, it was with me so strong.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:05.359
Like I felt the prompting so hard, like, do not shame him over this.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:09.680
You know, like he's coming to you humbly, and you just you need to be by his side.
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:26.160
So in that moment, I was not always perfect at that, but in that moment, I was I tried to appear very understanding and kind, even though inside I was hurting and like, and we talked about that later as we went along, but I was like, I need him to feel safe talking to me.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:40.799
And so I think from there it it was like, okay, that worked, like yeah, and it just it leaked out over the course of I mean for for every I would say it's like for a full confession, it was a long time.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:55.279
Yeah, like but the main the main points came out and oh I still look back, I I still look back and I'm like that was one of the probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my entire life.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:02.799
But it was also just like the the door to open into a completely new life.
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:04.400
And you see that now.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:05.039
Yeah now.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:05.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:07.839
At the time you're risking everything in your life.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:08.319
Oh yeah.
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.960
Well, because I mean I'm sitting there thinking, I'm gonna lose my wife, I'm gonna lose my family, possibly my membership in the church.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.519
You know, like it like I'm gonna get I'm you know, get get released, everyone's gonna know.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:30.240
Like it, like all these things are going through my head that I'm like like everything that I had valued was just risked and potentially gone.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:37.359
Just to speak on like his courage in that moment, though, because he always is like, oh, I was so cowardly, like I should have told you.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:44.960
But in that moment, and over the course of several months, he confessed things to me I never would have known if he hadn't just come out and told me.
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:47.039
He could have taken him to his grave and I would not have known.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:48.480
So he became more proactive.
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:48.799
Oh, yeah.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:50.799
Which is not always the case in the circumstances.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:51.359
No.
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.880
It's like there's that constant like I got this, I got this.
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.759
I think that's the biggest worst thing we could ever say.
00:33:57.920 --> 00:33:59.279
Those three words, I got this.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.680
Yep.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:00.559
You don't got this.
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:01.039
Right.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.039
That's never got the tonement.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:09.039
That's the whole point of Jesus Christ in our lives, is like we aren't the savior, and that's why we're supposed to lean on him.
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:13.760
But but we like to think we are, because it takes humility, you know, to ask for help.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:22.559
And anyway, um, I can't remember what I was saying with that, but uh I'd be curious to see from your perspective, Natalie.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.119
What what were the actual like thoughts that you had?
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.519
Like at that point, were you considering the marriage?
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:28.800
Were you like Oh yeah.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.840
I in fact, we went to our bishop the next day.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:34.719
So that was on a Tuesday.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:39.920
So that was like a Monday night at midnight, then we had all day Tuesday, and then we went and talked to the bishop on Wednesday.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.119
Yeah, so that fast.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:45.519
And in the bishop's office, I was like, should I divorce him?
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:49.760
Like straight, he was right there, and I was just like, I was reeling.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:51.760
Like I didn't know what was up or down.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:59.280
Like I my whole perspective on life and my marriage and the gospel, and I'm living this good life.
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:00.559
Why did this happen to me?
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:02.079
Like everything was shattered.
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.639
Let me ask you, and they I'm doing this a lot in this episode.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.400
You may think I do this all the time, but I don't.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.119
One word to describe how you were feeling at that time.
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:10.159
Shattered.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:10.880
Shattered.
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:11.119
Yeah.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:12.639
You didn't even have to you didn't even have to hesitate.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.679
You didn't have to think about that word.
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:14.159
No, yeah.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.280
Shattered shattered.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:16.000
It wasn't broken.
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.840
It was like there's no way I could piece myself back together.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:20.639
There's no way.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:21.039
Wow.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:21.519
Yeah.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:23.119
Just absolutely crushed.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:30.559
And and because of the other confessions, it wasn't just the pornography, but there was so much involved with it.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.559
And that as that came out, I was just like, what else do I not know?
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.559
And like, how could this have been going on?
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.880
And I had no I was so naive.
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:39.920
And that was scary.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:40.159
Yeah.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.400
Because I was like, that was right under my nose.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.960
You know what I mean?
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.480
What do I what else do I not know?
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:45.039
Exactly.
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:47.760
You start to distrust you start the trust just goes out the window.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:49.360
Not just for him, but for everybody.
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.280
Like who else is lying to me?
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.800
And how else is my naivety uh um affecting me?
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.639
You know, like maybe I'm in lots of relationships that aren't healthy, and maybe yeah.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:05.199
You know, I had a guest in a previous episode talk about this very thing um when she found out her husband had a pornography addiction.
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:06.159
And she said something.
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:07.760
This is the first time I'm seeing a parallel.
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:14.559
Your trust gets so shattered because he is your foundation that when that's gone, you question everything around you.
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.119
It's not just the marriage or the individual.
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:20.000
It's like every time was it male-centric?
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:22.719
Was it like it was it more like, do I trust that guy, or was it more people in general?
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.000
Oh, just people, yeah.
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:24.800
And myself.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.079
So you stop to trust yourself because my instincts told me for so long something's wrong.
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:35.440
But it was like, no, everything's fine, you know, and like and I we uh it sounds like I'm being mean, you know.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:41.760
We talked about this so much, like I know where he was coming from to be lying to me and like nobody.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:42.880
But he was lying to me.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.800
He was lying, and so it was so it was so hurtful, but it was scary.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:51.039
Like I knew, I knew I was right, and I'd been told for years I was wrong.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:37:00.320
And so then I'd learned to stop trusting my instincts, I'd learned to stop trusting my gut, and and even now to this day, like I'm like, am I off on this?
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.199
Like it's still hard.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:03.119
It's so hard to recalibrate.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.719
So you're still working through it.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:05.840
Yeah, we both are.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.719
We're both still working through our marriage, everything, but it but together, it's different.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:11.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.960
So you're in a different stage in the development, and I think that's an important marker to hit.
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.039
When was all this that it came came to light?
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:17.760
How long ago was that?
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.119
2018.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.119
Yeah, so you do that.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:22.320
Okay, six, eight years.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:22.639
Okay.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:23.440
I'm like, I don't know, I'm gonna go.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:23.760
Eight years.
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:24.880
2026, it's eight years.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.360
So eight years into the journey of it coming out.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:27.920
Okay.
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.199
So this is where the episode could be like full days long.
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:44.000
We could talk about from this point on, but I think it was important to get really into the thick of this to this stage because this is the stuff that people are quietly living or secretly not knowing how to connect with others.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:47.119
It's the desperation, it's the shattered, it's the gross.
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:50.480
Those are the things that they're man, I'm getting chills talking about this.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:51.119
Man.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:53.280
People are suffering.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.320
And they're hearing this and they're going, wow, that's that's me.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.360
So I understand that there's so much we could talk about in terms of recovery.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:07.360
What can we do in our time together that would be the most useful for the people who are listening?
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:14.239
I think there were key moments that that kind of shaped the trajectory.
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:21.840
Let's talk about the key learnings in recovery, the things that you would want someone, what would you tell yourselves at that point in 2018?
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:30.400
You've come out of the bishop's office, your world's shattered, your world is shattered, you've been you've been exposed, and you don't even know how far it's reaching.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:30.960
Yeah.
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:34.400
Um, what would you want to go back and tell yourselves about recovery?
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:41.920
Let's spend the last part of our episode talking about these and key takeaways and things that people need to know so that they can they have a direction, a guiding light.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.440
And obviously it all points to the savior, but what does that look like for you guys?
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:45.840
You know?
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:47.440
So it's it's different.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:55.440
Uh, and and I'll let Nat talk about her her uh because because it it was it was like there were two paths that we were both taking.
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:55.920
Yes.
00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:01.360
Um, they ran parallel and they both ran toward the savior, but they were very distinct.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:09.599
Um and so my bishop who I will love forever, him and and my state president, just love him.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:12.400
I mean, when that asked that question, should I divorce my husband?
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.559
He just with a smile just says, No.
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:18.559
And and he he was a new bishop, poor guy.
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.840
I think I was the first one to come in and with that that situation.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:23.360
You is okay.
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:24.880
We broke him in.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:27.039
I think you guys prepared him very well.
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:29.920
But he's like, he's like, I don't know.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:33.039
And so he's like, here's all the resources they've told me.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:38.239
There's an addiction recovery group that's in Enterprise, Utah, which is an hour away.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.880
That's the closest one that we could we could get to.
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:44.480
And I was like, I was like, Do you want me to stop stay taking the sacrament?
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.480
You want me to here's my temple recommend?
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:48.800
He's like, I want you to go to the temple.
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.119
And and he's like, I don't want you to.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.840
He's like, you need the temple and you need the sacrament.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:40:01.840
He took that up with the state president first, and they coughed and prayed, and both were like like no, well, it's you need to be in the temple.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:02.079
Yeah.
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:03.599
So this is a misconception.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:06.400
I think people think, well, you have to be worthy to go to the temple.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:06.719
Right.
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.760
And you're actively recovering from pornography.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.719
So why is the temple something that's so critical for someone at that stage in recovery?
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:15.119
Who?
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:22.960
It is the that I think was the pillar that that saved me what was the temple.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:32.880
We uh I got all of a sudden I was very interested in family history, and we started doing that, and we went weekly to the temple.
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.480
And the temple was and it's an hour and a half from our house.
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:45.360
We had three kids at the time, and they were little, and so and we had her sister stepped up in a big way, took our kids.
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:53.360
She's like, she's like, I don't care what I need to do if I need to watch them for the rest of the rest of your life if you need to go to the temple every week.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:54.960
That's Keith's daughter right there.
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:57.920
Yeah, so she she took our kids.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:58.960
We went to the temple every week.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:06.400
My parents too, and they we had not confided in them, and they said, Okay, we'll take your kids, they didn't ask us questions.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:12.159
Yeah, and my parents were serving as mission president, and the blessings that came from that were unreal.
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:22.639
But we went to the temple, counseling was in the same town, um, counseling was once every two weeks, temple was every week, and addiction recovery was was every week.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:24.239
And then we went and got a hamburger.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.960
And then we got a hamburger at Mars.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:37.760
Now, I it's it's interesting because well, and I'm you know, it's fun to laugh at, but I can also imagine those first weeks must have been like really awkward hamburgers.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:38.320
Yeah.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:38.880
Oh yeah.
00:41:39.039 --> 00:41:39.440
Oh yeah.
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:45.599
Like painful, what are we because like early it's so you didn't go to the temple the first time and and be like, I'm getting support.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.000
I'm guessing.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:57.199
I felt I remember the first time walking in there and just being just like my head down and just feeling like I don't even belong here.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:58.159
Like hiding.
00:41:58.559 --> 00:41:59.440
Like Adam, honestly.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:00.000
Yes.
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:03.280
And I had the coolest experience.
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:11.920
I was uh we'd been going for three or four weeks, and and I was just low, just absolutely low, shattered.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:20.480
And uh we go into the temple, and I was like, I want to know where I'm at with God.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.920
Like it's like and I said the prayer in the little changing room.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.800
Uh I was like, I just don't know where I'm at.
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:28.239
Like, where am I at with you?
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:36.880
Like I would like, and we did initiatories, went in there, and you know, great blessings and stuff, but I didn't feel anything while I was in there.
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:37.440
Sure.
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:45.440
And I came out and I go back into my little my little changing room and I'm sitting there and and I was just like and I just said prayer.
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.719
I was like, I'm just grateful that I'm here, that I'm allowed to be here.
00:42:50.960 --> 00:43:09.599
And and then it just like came into my heart like and I'm grateful that you I'm grateful that you are my dad and I'm your son and the reality of that uh relationship just pounded me.
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:18.400
That and that I thought about how I felt towards my kids and my sons, and I was just like, wow, he must really love me.
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.440
And uh because I didn't feel loved.
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:25.519
I didn't feel loved from her, and not not because not her fault.
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.960
No, but I just I didn't feel that you weren't allowed, you were unworthy of it.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.679
Like you were you were shaming yourself to the point where she could love you all you want.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:32.400
So it's not gonna be a good idea.
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:34.000
I was completely alone.
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:36.400
That alone is is probably the word that I would use.
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:42.800
Like I just felt so alone because I was like, I'm that guy that in the movies everyone hates.
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:50.960
I'm the guy that that people talk about and that should be shamed, you know, like in society, like you know deserving deserving.
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:54.960
And so, but when you're that guy, you don't have anyone.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:57.039
You don't have anyone to turn to, you don't have anyone.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.760
And anyway, so that just that was one of those.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:11.519
Pillar critical moments that just changed my whole perspective on on uh on recovery and my relationship with God and and everything that wow.
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.199
Thank you so much for sharing that.
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.760
Um because I think on the outside people are gonna look at the temple and go, well, what does that have to do with recovery?
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:18.079
Right.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:24.000
What you just said that I heard is this idea of perspective of the relationship of who you are at your core.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:30.559
And only in the temple were you able to have the the love of your father pierce your heart through the darkness.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:42.639
It's um it was i on the outside, it'd be hard to explain, but when you experience it, like we talked about another story earlier before we you know it, you can't deny it because it's impossible for you to feel it anywhere, any other way if it wasn't coming from God.
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:43.920
What about you though, Natalie?
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.280
What was the temple why was the temple so important for you in this part of the journey?
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:50.960
I think it um spiritual settings in general.
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:57.119
So where the spirit was the strongest and the temple was that place, I felt the most at peace.
00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:03.039
So I would I would have this like turmoil in my heart and the doubts and the was I right to stay with him?
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:05.840
And like was am I being a coward?
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:16.480
Am I you know, like just all these questions, like um maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, maybe I'm in a toxic relationship, you know, like it was just constant, like I don't know, up and down, up and down, up and down.
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:29.760
And when I'd go to the temple, all that would quiet, and I would just know I was doing the right thing just in my heart, and it wasn't really because of anything necessarily that I would hear in the temple, it was just the spirit there, and that was the only place I felt soothed.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:36.480
And I started to realize because of this journey that being in spiritual settings was so important for that reason.
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:52.079
Like it's not necessarily about what the speaker says in sacrament meeting or how good or bad your Sunday school teacher is, or if the temple ceremony is touching your heart that day, but the spirit is there, and you can't learn unless the spirit is speaking to you.
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:59.920
And so you want to seek out those situations, and I needed the spirit so bad, like it every day, and that was something our counselor said.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.239
She's like, Stop looking ahead, even two days.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:03.840
What are you gonna do tomorrow?
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.239
And so I had to take it every single day.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:13.119
Today I'm gonna be kind when I don't feel like it, and today I'm gonna pray for forgiveness in my heart when I don't want to.
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:20.639
And and if I flooded my life with spiritual things, I felt like prompted all the time.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.719
And so it was like drowning if I didn't and then surviving if I did.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.079
So there's no middle.
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:30.159
No It was you were you were getting by or drowning?
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:38.559
Yeah, there was no in between without being in those spiritual and we don't want to we want to be really careful here to mention that when we talk about the temple, we're not minimizing the importance of counseling.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:39.280
No, right.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:43.039
Um, what were those non-temple elements that were essential in your guys' recovery?
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:45.440
What would so just as a review, what were those things?
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.400
Counseling, um Marriage and specifically pornography, uh-huh.
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:50.880
Counseling.
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.320
So I went to uh pornography counselor.
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.360
She met with the same counselor but separately.
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:00.800
Um because she was also like an anxiety specialist.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:02.079
Because those things overlap.
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:02.559
Yes.
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:02.719
Yes.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:07.039
And maybe is the you know, it's it's the it's the foundation of these things.
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:07.360
Right.
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.199
Is are baked in these unhealed elements.
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:10.960
And she gave us a lot of tools.
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:12.320
Oh, she was so amazing.
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:14.400
We sent people to her, like, what's her name?
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:15.519
Can we can we say her name?
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:16.159
She's retired.
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:18.000
Susan Susan Goodman.
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:18.400
Yeah.
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:24.239
She just we were so sad she retired because we yeah, we seriously and we love her forever.
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:24.719
Forever.
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.679
She she she just has that place in our heart.
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.239
She's earned it.
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.960
She literally was key in saving our marriage.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:31.679
She's an angel.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:32.159
She needs a change.
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:33.119
A literal angel of her.
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:33.599
She really is.
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:37.280
And everyone else who we sent to her said the same thing.
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:37.840
Yep.
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:38.400
Yeah.
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:41.920
And we did we did marriage counseling with another counselor who helped us.
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.639
Um addiction recovery classes.
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:57.760
Like we we like I said, we drove 45 minutes every Thursday to a completely different state, town to be able to go to that class, and we did it for two years every Thursday.
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.760
I I think that we maybe missed four classes, maybe five classes.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:05.039
For holidays or something, but um, but but we were there.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.119
Uh they were so necessary.
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.440
We'd get through the week and be like, we have to go.
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.079
Like it's just so hard to it's like you're holding on.
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:17.840
Well, going back to that analogy of like if you didn't have those resources or the environments where you felt the spirit, you would drown.
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:18.480
Yeah, yep.
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:18.800
Yeah.
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:28.079
And those classes, I mean, I I I love it because that class teaches you how to repent, whether it's addiction or not.
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:34.800
It like those 12 steps are not the 12 steps of of addiction recovery, it's the 12 steps of repentance.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:41.840
I mean, it and it changes you, literally who you are, which you have to do in order to repent.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:46.639
Like repentance is that it's not like oh I'm saying I'm sorry that I did this thing.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.599
It's that you actually have to become a different person.
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:55.199
And those 12 steps outline what you can do to become a different person.
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:58.079
And and that was that was critical.
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.360
And it's it's not quick.
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:07.840
Like, well, yeah, because my my question, I almost wanted to ask it sarcastically, is this idea of like you guys you guys started going to the temple and get counseling and then it all just got better.
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:08.559
Better.
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:16.400
Not even to this day is it like all better, but it's so much more we have the tools.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:16.719
Yeah.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:20.079
Where is the so you you've alluded to that a couple times, Natalie.
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:21.519
But you mentioned two things.
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.039
Number one, we're still working through this.
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:30.320
Number two, something changed at a certain point where it it was shifted from what you described it, Corey, this idea of two separate paths.
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:39.440
It seems like it unified from where I'm sitting to a point where it's like, no, there's still individualistic, you know, healing, but it feels like at some point you guys came back together.
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:42.480
I mean, the majority of this episode, you've been tightly holding hands.
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:44.480
Like when did that happen?
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:47.440
Was it just a gradual result of doing these things over time?
00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:54.239
Was there a breakthrough or a realization that you had that you can point to and say, yep, that was a significant part of what brought us together?
00:49:54.400 --> 00:50:04.800
And am I getting it right that you guys are now working in your now it feels like you're working now in this at this in-step as a team, whereas beforehand it was, I don't know if we were doing our individual journeys.
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:07.280
What point did you guys become a team again?
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.760
I think we decided to be a team from the get-go.
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:20.159
But where we actually felt like a team, at least for me, took probably years of just slowly building trust back.
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.639
And so much so you didn't have a specific point.
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:35.199
It was very much just so gradual that when it happened, it reminds me in Hamilton when you know we talk about Alexander Hamilton's affair becomes light and they're walking the lengths of the city because they lose their son, and at a certain point she takes his hand.
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:42.480
It's just it's this like that's the next gradual step is almost so small but so meaningful that it's almost hard to even pinpoint.
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:42.880
Yeah.
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:43.199
Yeah.
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.800
It's not I don't know if there's any like moment that's yeah.
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:51.679
Well, I I always like relate it to it's like asking someone like, when did you get so fit?
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:53.519
Like what day was it that you got fit?
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:55.519
Yeah, what was the day that you looked at inside abs.
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:57.039
And they're like, oh man, yeah.
00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:02.159
No, it's not a it's it's an entire process of just slowly adding, you know.
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:07.760
So and and it's not like I said, we're not perfect.
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:12.000
And and and I don't want anyone to go away thinking that like it's all better.
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:12.960
Everything's better.
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:20.079
Like we we have our moments, we we I still get triggered, like Yeah, and and well recovery is a linear line anyway.
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:23.280
Recovery is not like when that came to light, you stopped altogether.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:24.079
Right, right.
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:36.000
I think it's important to recognize with any addiction that that relapse is part of the process, and and so doing causes the hurt on the spouses end all over in different ways, but the but I'm sure you experience it slightly differently each time.
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:40.719
Well, I I watched this video that I want to share like the analogy in it because it helped me so much.
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:41.280
Please.
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:55.519
Um, and it they were talking about like anxiety or something like that, um depression, like like every time the ball hits the wall, you're triggered, you're you know, whatever.
00:51:55.760 --> 00:52:00.559
And we think as we recover that the ball is shrinking and eventually will disappear.
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:05.840
And the video showed, like, no, your box gets bigger, and then they like replace the box, replace the box.
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:09.760
Your ball is gonna stop hitting the walls like n nearly as much.
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:18.239
But every now and then it's gonna bump into the wall and you're gonna be triggered by something, you're gonna, you know, maybe have like a moment where you're like, ah, I shouldn't have seen that or shouldn't have done that or whatever.
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.360
But your capacity to hold the ball is just getting bigger.
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.320
It's not that the ball is doing anything different, if that makes sense.
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:24.639
Yes.
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.199
So still moving around in there, you're gonna be able to hold it a lot better the stronger you get.
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:31.280
And so I hear that like control.
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:37.119
I hear that because when we think that the ball is getting smaller, we think our actions are minimizing the addiction or the temptations.
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:41.599
What we're recognizing is that we have to acknowledge we are nothing without the savior.
00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:48.960
That releasing of control is what allows us the space to work on building our box, which is in this case, faith, trust.
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:59.599
Every time you are tempted and you bring it to our attention earlier, that's still a version of relapse to some degree, but it's so much different in those cases.
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:08.000
And I think that's something that it is so universally needed to be known, is that this isn't uh a binary experience.
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:08.400
Right.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:17.760
If if there's no addiction in the marriage currently, the the think that it's not possible is is probably the single greatest way that people could end up falling.
00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:18.719
Yes, yes.
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:39.519
It's it's almost like I think if if let's just take let's take an extreme example, I don't think they'd be listening to this episode, but if there is a couple that exists out there where they have no experience on this whatsoever, if if they're if the husband isn't mentioning when they're feeling weak or tempted or anxious and not talking to someone who's who's gratefully had you, I don't think every marriage has that, to be honest.
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:47.280
And uh but when the when the spouse can be that person in addition to the savior, it's it's it's it's you'll win.
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:48.320
Yeah, you'll win.
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:48.719
Yeah.
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:50.880
And and that's that's what we feel.
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:59.360
I mean, the I I really want the the role of the atonement to to be very clear in this whole process.
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:00.960
I mean, it wasn't us, yeah.
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:02.559
It it really was not us.
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:22.400
I mean, I any strength that I had, any anything came from doing recovery the right way, doing it the way that the Lord had outlined and relying on him and his process, not Corey's process or or anything that I wanted it yet.
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:32.320
It was it was 100% like like lean on him, turn to him, and I watched I watched him heal her.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:53.760
I remember we went through the temple with her brother, it was his first time going, and it was shortly after everything had come out, and I remember just sitting there looking at her and just praying, like like and having the realization that she is shattered, and I'm sitting here holding all these pieces and I'm powerless to put them back together.
00:54:54.079 --> 00:55:01.679
But I just remember again at the temple feeling like you can't do that, like but I can.
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:09.280
And and I've I watched that happen with her, and we both witnessed each other's miracle.
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:15.840
It it was just the savior atonement, everything that he's done for us is incredible.
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:16.159
Yeah.
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:19.599
What did that teach you about the savior's love for you specifically?
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:22.000
It's very individual, for one.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.239
Like I felt so seen.
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:33.199
Um, and weirdly, I'm someone who has like a lot of irrational fears, and you know, I'm the president of that.
00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:34.239
Okay, okay.
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:36.960
So, like, yeah, anxiety, like all these things.
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:40.880
And it calmed me down so much as regards to my children.
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:43.679
Like, one of my biggest fears was I'm not gonna raise them right.
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.360
Like, I'm gonna mess up and they're gonna they're gonna be messed up, you know?
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.159
And and I just I can't handle that thought.
00:55:50.320 --> 00:56:03.039
And after all of this, like after an earth-shattering experience, it was like all of that just calmed down because I recognized it doesn't matter what happens to us, the savior can be available to us throughout.
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:13.280
So it's it's not that bad things won't happen, but that he will be right by your side while they happen, and it's so much more bearable than you think it is because when you imagine it, you imagine it alone.
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:17.599
And you can't you can't imagine what that feels like to have him right there.
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:20.400
But the spirit was so strong in our home.
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:23.360
Like we felt like we had like an MTC home for a while there.
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:23.840
Wow.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:29.360
Because we were like, we could not watch anything that even slightly offended the spirit.
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:32.960
We couldn't like speak in ways that offended the spirit.
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:41.440
We were pouring over scriptures, we were doing family history, we were writing in our journals, we were serving all the things we're supposed to do that we weren't doing.
00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:46.480
We were suddenly like just pouring into our lives, and the spirit was so strong.
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:50.719
And we almost talk about like, we wish we could go back to that time.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:57:03.039
Because it's interesting that you described this journey of yours, Natalie, from shattering trust and lots of other things to gaining a greater trust in Jesus Christ.
00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:03.440
Yes.
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.840
And that's such an interesting thing.
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:14.880
And I I don't want to like make it seem like, oh, it's all worth it, but in a way but in a way, it seems like you've learned a lesson that is so much more valuable in that regard.
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:15.840
We always say that.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:16.719
We'll never trade it.
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:17.119
It was awful.
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:18.079
You would never trade it.
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:19.440
Say that again.
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:20.400
We would never trade it.
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:21.519
Would you trade it, Corey?
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:22.239
Yeah.
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:23.360
Or different people.
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:31.039
I don't uh yeah, I don't know if I could I don't know if I and this is you know the choose to be humble or be humbled.
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:34.880
Like I'm I'm not a very good like choose to be humble type of a person.
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:36.079
I wish I was.
00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:37.840
I many people really do.
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:38.400
Yes.
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:47.599
Um I don't know if I could have gotten to know him without kind of getting smashed in the face.
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:53.360
And and and and it's terrible, and I and I I hate it.
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:57.360
I look back on it and it just fills me with all sorts of things.
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:01.440
But I love the relationship that I have with the Savior now.
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:07.519
And and I just don't know how like I know it's possible, and I know that people do it all the time.
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:09.199
We weren't those people.
00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:11.599
I'm very I'm grateful for the experience.
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:12.159
Yeah.
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:13.119
Amazing.
00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:16.000
Um, this is a wonderful time to ask.
00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:20.719
Um, how is it, how is it, how do you feel about what what has this done for your marriage now?
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:21.440
Oh man.
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:28.079
Like where you know, I know they're still working through things, but like authentically, what has this experience done to your marriage?
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:38.639
Yeah, I mean, we we've got bumps, we've got big bumps that that hit in the road and and whatnot, but we are the best of friends.
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:39.920
More than before?
00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:40.800
Oh yeah.
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:44.159
I mean, we we are it's like we fought a war together.
00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:45.039
Yeah, like you know that's the thing.
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:47.039
Banda brothers in the trenches.
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:47.599
Yes.
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:54.000
Like we've seen each other at our very, very worst, and we were just both of us there.
00:58:54.239 --> 00:59:01.360
I mean, I would come to him crying and say, I'm sad because of what you did, and I I need a blessing.
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:02.880
And he would give me the blessing.
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:04.159
Like, how weird is that?
00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:05.519
But like how humble is that?
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:06.159
Yeah.
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:10.000
But it was like we were healing each other through this process.
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:12.639
I mean, we weren't the savior was, but like we were his hands.
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:13.039
Yes.
00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:25.039
And then watching each other grow in the atonement and watching the miracle of each other's healing, and it I there's just the loyalty that that creates is kind of hard to describe.
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:27.440
Such a beautiful thing to say.
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:28.880
Um, I'm so inspired.
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:34.159
Corey, people are listening, there are men listening to this who haven't told their spouses yet.
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.679
You live that horror of the idea of sharing with that.
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:39.440
What do you say to those guys?
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.679
It it will be the hardest thing that they ever do.
00:59:54.239 --> 01:00:00.719
I mean facing facing that is going to be one of the hardest things that you you can ever do.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:10.800
Um but the the savior is going to to hold your hand that whole time.
01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:25.360
Um and there's no guarantee that that your spouse is going to to react in the same way that you know, I mean, you gotta understand what you've done to your spouse.
01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:40.239
Like it's it it is you have shattered trust, their self-esteem, their I mean, th they're the the amount of damage you've done is you gotta understand that.
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:51.760
But also understand that you have a heav loving heavenly father that loves you and who is not going to let anything happen to you that is not going to be for your benefit.
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:53.280
And he will help you.
01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:57.840
And I would encourage anyone to talk to your bishop.
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:08.639
Uh find a friend who who can can help and understand, talk to them, get people on your team, have them help you.
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:15.199
And when you do talk to your to your spouse, do it in the most humble way possible.
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:17.760
Understand that it's not their fault.
01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:22.719
There is there's no fault that lies with your wife at all.
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:25.920
Own own the the problem.
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:32.320
Be humble and and be open and honest about everything.
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.159
Just just get it out there.
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:38.159
It it's gonna hurt, it's taking venom out of a wound.
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:41.440
But once you do that, the healing starts.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:42.880
And it's possible.
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:43.920
And it's possible.
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:48.800
And you you will the the Lord's there, the Lord's gonna help you.
01:01:49.039 --> 01:02:00.719
I mean, Christ loves each and every one of us, and and something that I thought was impossible, living, living, you know, in recovery, is I'm I'm doing it, and and I love it.
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:03.920
I've I've never been happier than I am right now.
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:05.440
You say that again.
01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:07.440
I I've never been happier than I am right now.
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:08.000
Okay.
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:09.440
I think that's big.
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:10.480
Thank you, Corey.
01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:18.239
Natalie, what do you say to wives who have just found out, who are just in that early stages of being shattered?
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:21.519
Um same thing.
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:24.559
I would say lean on your savior.
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:37.440
Um something that really helped me to find empathy for Corey when I was feeling really angry or really upset, almost to the point where I like I couldn't control my emotions.
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:40.320
I kept having this thought again by the spirit.
01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:45.199
I think, um, how would you want your son's wives to react to them?
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:47.360
Wow, that's an interesting perspective.
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:54.400
And that really softened me because you know, when it's you against your spouse, there's more competition there, they're your peer.
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:58.239
But man, when it's your baby, you're just like, I just hope she's good to him.
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:01.039
I just hope that you know she helps him through this.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:03.760
And and I was like, he's someone's baby.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:09.599
And I, you know, I from a mother's perspective, like, I can do this.
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:14.800
And so so that would give me courage sometimes when I just didn't have it in me.
01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:18.719
And and the other thing I would say is prayer is so powerful.
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:24.960
I I would specifically ask, like, I would just go to God and be like, I am so upset with Corey right now.
01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:26.480
Like I am so hurt.
01:03:26.559 --> 01:03:28.800
Um, I think this and this about him.
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:31.440
But I don't want to.
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:36.480
Like, I can feel that that is pushing the spirit out of my heart, and I really want to forgive him.
01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:37.760
I just don't know how.
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.760
And can you just give me the can you give me that power to forgive him?
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:49.199
And I prayed that for probably two years, and then finally, I mean, almost like just one day I wasn't mad anymore.
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:54.639
I don't know and how else to describe it except that it was a miracle that I asked for.
01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:56.239
And so, yeah.
01:03:59.119 --> 01:03:59.360
Okay.
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:02.159
Uh one word to describe how you're doing now.
01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:12.559
I was gonna say amazing, but that sounds cheesy.
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:13.840
Really?
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:16.719
But like that's a that's a word that was authentically an option for you.
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:17.760
Yeah.
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:30.639
Because there's this closeness, because of the connection to the savior, it not only I think this is the miracle of the atonement, not only was there healing involved, but there was a transformation that occurred to where you guys would willingly choose this in order to have the what you have now in terms of the relationship and with each other.
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:31.039
Yes.
01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:33.920
Despite at points questioning everything.
01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:34.639
Oh, yeah.
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:44.000
I just feel a special prompting to to acknowledge the the victims of of of these of these addictions, and I'm sure most of them are wives.
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:58.800
And just if for the the wives in particular, just uh to highlight the fact that when we talk about special, when we talk about powerful, when we talk about divinely inspired, and we talk about angels, we're talking about you.
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:07.440
We as men are are trying to figure out this thing called the latter days, and you are everything.
01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:23.280
And so no matter what you feel in terms of loneliness, and just know that it's okay and it's normal, and that that what you have in terms of the savior is an extra measure that you are living proof of Nelly as you go through this journey.
01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:31.119
And I'm so grateful for your guys as a time to be here and share this wonderful transformative story that's still in process, that's still being unfolded.
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:34.719
It's not in it's never been about perfection in this this life.
01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:45.599
And and I think what you guys do inspire in this case is such a clarity of of um not destination focus, but direction, being being on a journey, right?
01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:47.599
And the temple being a key element of that.
01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:50.800
Um any other thoughts come to mind before we close?
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:54.480
I just want to give you guys space to say anything about anything that we talked about today.
01:05:55.599 --> 01:05:59.760
Um I have been thinking about just uh someone I've been talking to.
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:08.159
About her own journey and her struggles, and I think it's really important to remember to row in your own boat.
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:13.119
So you're not supposed to be, you know, in the same boat, and you're not supposed to be rowing for your husband.
01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:17.679
You're in your own boat and he's in his, and hopefully you're going in the same direction.
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:28.159
Um, but even if he doesn't, even if he chooses not to go to recovery or get into recovery or go to classes or go to counseling, you can do all of that without him.
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:29.840
And and you should.
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:33.519
And and that was one of the turning points for me.
01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:40.239
Um when everything was going on, and I was just so shattered, I was like, I'm going to classes, whether you come with me or not.
01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:44.880
I'm going to counseling whether you come with me or not, and I'm going to the temple whether you come with me or not.
01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:47.760
Because I need this and I need my savior.
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:50.480
And and I really hope you do because I love you.
01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:52.320
But if you don't, I'm still gonna do it.
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:59.039
And and I think like women sometimes get hung up on playing mommy a little bit, like nurturing.
01:06:59.280 --> 01:06:59.599
Yep.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:01.039
Like I can't do this without you.
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:09.440
You knew what you wouldn't leave your child behind, and so to leave your spouse behind feels counterintuitive and just against all instinct, but but it actually is healthier.
01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:17.119
Not that you're leaving them in your dust to be mean, but just your healing should be individual and it should not be codependent.
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:26.800
You know, if they choose not to heal, that's their choice, and you can still live side by side, you know, with harmony while you are getting the things that you need.
01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:28.000
So don't wait for them.
01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:29.360
Love that.
01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:30.559
That was really powerful.
01:07:30.639 --> 01:07:39.760
It's an interesting perspective of thinking about what your your daughter-in-law, how you'd want her to act with your son, because there's a degree of nurturing and love that's there, but it's not motherly.
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:40.159
Right.
01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:45.039
And for that helps separate that nurturing instinct that that these powerful leaders and women have.
01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:48.000
Um, Corey, anything else come to mind for you?
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:49.039
Any final thoughts?
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:58.400
I just again going back to the thing we talked about at the beginning, I I just want uh anyone who's struggling with it to know that there is hope.
01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:00.800
Like, and it's so possible.
01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:05.519
Like way more way more possible than I ever thought it was to recover.
01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:08.480
And and there's so many resources now.
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:17.039
Uh just just dive in and and do it, and you're gonna actually watch miracles happen in your life.
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:20.720
Like just one after the next and the next.
01:08:21.119 --> 01:08:25.039
And it's just it's a it's a one it's it's a really cool experience.
01:08:25.119 --> 01:08:34.319
It's weird to say that, but it's a really cool experience to go through because you get to see how the savior can walk on water.
01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:35.840
It's unreal.
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:37.439
Yeah, oh yeah, go ahead.
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:38.159
In your heart.
01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:38.640
What did you say?
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.079
I was just gonna say we had three more kids after post-recovery.
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:42.640
Wow.
01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:47.119
So when we were, you know, brink of divorce to our family doubled in size.
01:08:47.279 --> 01:08:48.800
So amazing.
01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:56.800
It's amazing how the transformation of the love of the savior doesn't just just fill in the gaps, it transforms to something even better and more beautiful.
01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:57.039
Yeah.
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:01.119
There's nothing more testimony-building than this exact type of situation.
01:09:01.359 --> 01:09:11.760
So thank you both for the courage for being here and for the the willingness to be transparent and for shedding light in such a a dark world when it comes to these types of addictions.
01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:13.279
I can't thank you enough for being on the show.
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:14.479
We're grateful to be here.
01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:14.880
Yep.
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:18.800
And thank you so much for tuning into this incredibly special episode of Temple Bound.
01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:27.439
If you know someone, and you probably know someone who's going through something like this, send them this episode and feel free to reach out to Temple Bound directly.
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:29.680
I'm sure you guys would be willing to talk to whoever.
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:35.439
And we'd be more than happy to continue to support you in this journey because it's not a matter of some people go through this and others don't.
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:37.039
We all do in some way.
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:44.000
So let's just remember what we learned today from Natalie and Corey: the power of the atonement and transformation, that anything is possible.
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:45.840
Just never give up.
01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:47.199
Until next time.
01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:53.840
Tempo Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe.
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:59.520
Produced by Heather Humphreys, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizzen and Kimberly Simbafon.
01:09:59.920 --> 01:10:01.840
Wardrobe by Anne Collar.
01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:09.439
These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:14.319
Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to the Savior.
01:10:14.560 --> 01:10:15.359
Until next time.