EP. 271-01Tech Zone Deep Dive: Paul Lekas on the APRA and the Future of Privacy

In this world of technology, things are ever changing, rearranging. You need someone to help you out. I know someone who can come and take a journey with me. As we go through the land of technology. You'll never be alone, You'll be with Paul. I'm an dance laying in the Tech Zone. Take a little trip with me and hopefully you can see how the hood, suburbs and main street are all connected no respect can I mean we network across the globe because h's a global market in case s you didn't know, and since we all about information flow, let me be the first one to work from you to Tech Zone with Paul armaday s Lane. Let's talk tech technology changing the game. It's so good in the hood, it's everywhere. Now let's get into the show because we von a Yeah, hello and welcome to the Tech Zone. What is up? It's me Paul Amadea's Lane and I am so delighted to have you on our show today. Why we have some amazing guests. It's all about tech. It's all about privacy today, and it's all about a new social media platform that's for investors and entrepreneurs and how they can level up with this new company that's launching here in the US. We'd like to welcome you who are listening on our flagship station, ABC News Radio, k E T A, M and FM. And we can't forget about you who are watching us right now on our Roku and Fire TV channel on the Tech Zone with Paul Amadeas Lane. And those who are listening to us via our podcast, whether if it's Apple, Spotify, iHeart Amazon, all the rest out there. We thank you, We thank you for tuning in. You can always connect with me Paul Amadea's Lane dot com or on social media platforms the Twitter, I'm still gonna call it, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook is Paul Almade's Lane, and even on LinkedIn. Why sale, we folks, because I am a business man, Yes I am, and I am delighted to bring you my business today when it comes to check. So sit back and enjoy the show. Hope you all are having a marvelous and a wonderful day. It's wonderful and marvelous, right see, some people who know where that came from, You know exactly what I'm talking about. And if you do, hit me up in the chat, hit me up in the episode. Comments and let me know what wonderful and marvelous or is it wonderful and marvelous one of those things. But we'll get it. We'll get it together. But hey, a lot of things have been going on in the news when it comes to tech, and one in particular has to do with our privacy. And some of you in the tech world you know what I'm talking about with the ap R, the American Privacy Rights Act, and we know that it was a revised raft that went going that was going around through Congress and also different organizations out there to kind of give their view of this piece of legislation. Now it has been pulled back, but we are so delighted that we're going to be joined by an organization who really puts their finger on the pulse. We're talking about the SIIA. If you know anything about the tech world, you know how important this organization is when it comes to our privacy, when it comes to being online, all these different things that have to come with that. They chimed in on the latest of this piece of legislation. So we're so delighted to welcome them on. So without any further delay, let's welcome them on right now. I am so delighted to have on me. Right now from s A we have Paulis Paul, welcome back on the show. How you doing, Hey, Paul, it's great to be back. Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great. Great to welcome you back, my friend. You know, when it comes to privacy, when it comes to a lot of things that we need to be aware of. You know, SIIA is our go to organization. So you know, I mentioned this in the beginning of the show. We were talking about the American Privacy Right Act. Can we talk about that because some of us may be kind of apprehensive and kind of scared, So what can you tell us about that? Well, you know, privacy is something that matters to people, and the United States is one of the few countries that doesn't have a federal a national privacy bill for consumers. So it's really important, especially at this time when we have a number of states. I think it's upwards of fifteen states have privacy bills, but individuals in the other states don't have the same kind of protections in their own data. And moreover, there are differences across the various states that have enacted bills. So a Federal Privacy Bill is one that our organization and many other civil society groups, trade associations, businesses, individuals, individual rights organizations have been looking to an act for years, twenty years. So the latest effort to do this, the APR, is one that came out of the House and Senate. And there have been discussions, many discussions about this bill. It has been amended a couple of times already, and the House was scheduled to consider it recently but pulled it back, I think, and and the sausage making process and upper changes were made that unfortunately have left folks on the left on the right across the board not entirely pleased with where the draft stands today. Gotcha, well, thank you so much for giving us an update. And in Paul, I don't know if you can you can go into this about it. What were some of those those those sticking features they kind of like had had ones on both sides of the aisle, kind of apprehensives like wait, wait, wait, let's puff the brakes for a minute. Yeah, happy to talk about those. So I would say there were some provisions in this bill that would provide added protection around discrimination. So if data is used in a way that discriminates against individuals, and those provisions were taken out of the latest draft, and that raised concerns among many of the civil society organizations, especially on the left, that felt that they were absolutely essential. The business community remains concerned about the potential for lawsuits coming out of this lawsuits in instances when individuals aren't injured by misuse on purpose or inadvertently of their data, and so they'd like stronger protections there. I think there's a lot of interest in establishing a law that actually applies around the country, and there's some concerns that this law would apply in most places, but potentially not in those states where they've already enacted privacy laws that may be different in substantive ways. So those are really the big concerns. I would say. One other category of concern that we've heard a lot about has to do with the overall approach to the bill, which is one of data minimization. And this is the concept that folks who hold data from individuals or process data from individuals should take only as little data as is necessary to actually do what they need to do with that data. However, the way in which that concept is realized in the text of this bill is in such a way that a whole bunch of purposes, ways in which data is used that actually help people would be much harder to achieve. So, you know, across the board, I think the view is we need to think harder about this. We need to pass a federal privacy bill. There are so many important reasons why domestically, but also for the United States standing in the world and our leadership on digital policy issues, but that there are a number of areas where more thinking is needed in this bill. I appreciate you sharing that, Paul, and I want to go back a little bit because you mentioned some of the things that some might have had a problem with, especially when it comes to discrimination. There was a time that was a universal, you know, rallying rally, rallying cry where ones wanted to make sure that no one was being discriminated against. You know, are you saying that there's some who who say it's okay to be discriminated, to be to have a discrimination when it comes into this, you know, I wouldn't go that far. I don't want to impute bad motives to anybody. The discrimination, the anti discrimination provisions in this bill were tied up with artificial intelligence and issues around algorithmic bias and discrimination based on automated decision making. And my sense is that there's a number of narratives that are taking place right now, discussions taking place right now in Congress, and there are some who think it is too early premature to engage in the regulation of artificial intelligence from the federal level, and I think that was really the motivation for pulling these out, you know, I'd say from our association's perspective, we thought that those provisions were drafted really well for the most part, and would have been helpful to address a number of the concerns that are out there in a way that really aligns with what you know, companies that are engaged in these with these sorts of technologies are already trying to do. You know, Algorithmic bias is something that has been well documented, and to the extent that AI is being used to render decisions, we need to make sure that we have added protections so that those decisions don't embed discriminatory outcomes. All right, I'm glad you clarify that, because when normally we here discrimination, we think, you know, discriminators against you know, sex, gender, you know, and I'm glad that you glad that you share you clarify that for us, and so Paul, you know, we look about the federal guidelines that that that that we're looking for here when it comes regulation, when comes of privacy. So that means like will that supersede like what we have here in California once once, once a federal law is enacted. Oh, well, that's a big debate. I I you know, there is there is a debate right now about whether a federal law should supersede what you have in California. Uh, California has really been a first mover in the United States, uh, not only enacting a law, but that law is now in effect and there's a whole bunch of rulemaking that is uh that is being undertaken right now to build out the specifics of different parts of that law. There are you know, my senses, the members of Congress from California. I think that that is a worthwhile bill that is out there and we should really, you know, the federal approach should really map onto what California is doing already. But there are others who say we need to have the exact same rules across the country. And so this is a point of contention, I think, in some ways a little bit less than it it had been the last go around two years ago. But you know, California continues to move forward, and as Congress has trouble getting some of these big bills over the finish line, we are increasingly looking to states to lead the way in different areas of digital regulation. Yeah, it definitely makes sense because it a benefits. But if it's almost everybody, anybody els want to dog our state in California, California, We're we're always you know, innovators out there, you know, when it comes to a lot of things, and and uh and and Paul with S S I A in your organization, do you feel there are significant issues that remain in this draft and if you don't mind sharing it with us so that we can make sure we're getting a full full picture of it. Yeah, absolutely, So, you know, the posture of this draft is really uncertain right now. Before the House Energy and Commerce Committee was planning to review this last week and that was pulled at the last minute. There seems to be opposition from leadership to actually moving this build forward. You know that said, I think it is out there. It's probably going to be the template going forward. We would, as an association representing nearly four hundred companies in the information space, like to see some changes. You know, we want to make sure that as we provide individuals, we as a country, provide individuals with added protections that are really important, that we don't also make life harder for individuals in some ways. One of the themes that we talk about a lot is how data information is actually used for productive purposes, you know, things like protections against fraud, protections against money laundering, human trafficking, those sorts of things that actually rely on a great deal of data in order to effectuate. We want to make sure that those those uses of data remain remain possible and aren't going to be curtailed by a bill that is intended to protect individuals more so, you know, we would definitely like to see some changes in that. You know. The other thing I would say is that part of this bill in the House at least, is a whole bill on children's protection, and it would be an update to something called the Children's Online Privacy and Protection Act, which has been around for many years and address some of the ways in which children's statam may be more at risk given the way technology has developed. That is a bill that we think, you know, potentially could go forward. We'd like to see a couple of changes in it, but you know, for the most part, it is a positive bill that addresses, uh, you know, some gaps that are out there right now and would provide additional protection for miners and Paul. When we look at our most vulnerable, meaning our children and miners and even our aging and adult population out there, how critical is it that we have something like this is there's a lot of nefarious things going on, you know, especially when it comes to our to our children and even other one things out there. If you don't mind speaking of that force, please, yeah, I would love to. I mean, I think that's really the right way to go about this is trying to flag what are those harms out there that we want to stop and where where are their gaps in the law right now? And if I can pivot just the little bit. One area that we've been really deeply involved in has to do with the growing attention to deep phase that depict individuals in inaccurate situations or intimate situations through photos through videos without individuals consent. And this is an area I know has has been in the news, the national news, local news. There's a lot of concern around teenagers, but also adults, men and women, and you know, we think the whole area of deep fake intimate images is an area where Congress really needs to step in. We've seen so far over a dozen states take some action in this area, but we have no national rules around it, and there are bad actors out there, and we need to make sure that as technology is developed in this way and we don't have existing law that can actually cover that, that Congress provides the needed authority to do something about it. Yeah, those those deep fakes are you know, when I first was studying AI and everything and looking at some of the things that it could do and when it can come up with these different images of different people talking, I was like, oh, this is really cool. But that was before I thought about what people can do who they can do some bad things with these type of things, And it is like, and I'm starting to see like even like social media now and other like like YouTube, they you know that they can click a box to see if it's AI generator or something like that. And and you know, are we going to see a more universal thing when it comes to that like that, when it comes to deep fakes and and things that they can protect it, and will this bill kind of kind of deal with that, and when it come to social media as well. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there's so many different issues wrapped up in that. You know, there there's a lot of attention right now to well, should we have watermarks or labels on any content that is generated by AI? And you know, at first glance, that makes a lot of sense. But you know, when you understand how much AI is being used all over the place. AI is being used to touch up images, It's being used in a lot of different contexts, you know, some wonder, well, would a label like that actually make sense? Would it do anything? Would would users actually look at that image or video in a different way than they're looking at it right now? You know, we don't have the technology out there right now to be able to detect all AI generated text or images or videos, which makes it a little bit harder. The onus is really on people acting responsibly and in good good faith to do that themselves. But there's a lot of debate there. One thing that's unique about de fake intimate images is that there is almost universal condemnation. This is not a political issue. When that happens and it's not consensual, that's the bad that we as a society want to try to stop. Uh. And that is and I think an easy call for Congress to step in and do something about I totally agree, but it's kind of like an oxymoron. Congress makes sense. I'm sorry, I just had to go there with that. I'm sorry I should I should have said that, but you know it, you know, it really just really just kind of shows just you know, there are universal issues that we can all get behind, you know, protecting our youth, protecting you know, our aging and adult population, and protecting the most vulnerable and Paul, when it anything else when it comes to this revised draft of the American Privacy Rights Act, that that that s I I A wanted to really uh let the public aware of as we're getting into this process. Yeah. Yeah. Let me first flag that this whole issue around deep fakes doesn't actually appear in the American Privacy Rights Act. This does is raised in a number of other bills that Congress is considering right now. One of them is called the Defiance Act. This is one that we have come out and support of. We think it's really important for the tech industry to be for something. You know, there's I think there's a misimpression that our industry is always against legislation that has been proposed, But we also, you know, realize that it is in everyone's interest to create a much UH, to create a digital ecosystem that is more trustworthy, and that's why the focus on some of this deep fakes legislation, especially around non consensual imagery. Intimate imagery is really essential, and I think that we need to have a lot of attention there. In terms of the a p r A. You know, I think one thing that's gotten a lot less attention is the way it's written would effectively limit the ability of firms, individuals, researchers to build AI tools. And I understand, you know, there are some out there who think that the ubiquity of chatbots is not a good thing, but there is a lot of good that that these sorts of tools could be used for, and the A p r A would make it very difficult, UH to do that. In a reliable way. So I think that that's a really important thing to note. I would concur with you though, before we really want to focus on vulnerable populations. We really want to focus on harms that are known. You know, we've long talked about looking at uses and harms as a as a as the right way to consider what sort of regulations we need and where we have apps. But having a baseline law around the country around data privacy for consumers is really essential. At the same time, we wanted to be a bill that is good, and we started looking at the first version of the a p R. We were very optimistic this could turn into something that actually gets past and you know, unfortunately we're not in that position right now just because of how some of the compromises that have been made. That's true. Thank you, Thank you so much for sharing that, Paul, and and Paul, there's a lot of great things that your association are involved in, and for our viewers and our listeners out there, you know, who would love to keep up with all the things that are going on when it comes to to privacy, when it comes to other things that when it comes to the IoT of things, you know, how can they how can they follow along and get some of these great updates. I A great We would love for people to follow along with what we're doing. We'd love to get feedback. Also on the web, visit us at s I i A dot net, n E T slash news to get our updates and online on x s i I A policy is where we post a lot of our comments and links to our writing and our statements and other important things in the tech world that we are following and engaged on. That's awesome. Before I'll let you go, Paul, anything else when it comes to the a p r A that you liked us to be aware of before I'll let you go. I think that's all on the p r A. I mean, you know, we are in an election year. There are I think six weeks left before the election when Congress is actually going to be in so you know, it's unclear how much they're actually going to get done. But I do think there's a lot of ambition out there and so hopefully well we'll see some action on good policy that we need, potentially on deep fakes. And you know, we're really engaged in what the States are doing. I would say the States are not letting any of these issues fall aside. There have been dozens and dozens of bill's introduces this year on deep fakes on other issues. A number of them have passed. So it is worth keeping abreast of what is happening in the States, especially in a year like this. And something tells me, in this election year six weeks away, I think deep fakes are going to be a plenty. When he comes to this, it's you know, it's it's it's it's an interesting time in which we live in and and and Paul, you know, thank you so much for coming on again and sharing this information with us. Really appreciated looking forward to, you know, the chatting again. Please stay well until next time. Thank you, you two. Always a pleasure to be here. Thanks Paul. Really enjoyed talking with Paul. And I'm so glad that he clarified what he meant by discrimination about aid discrimination. So that's what happens. Sometimes we hear interviews, we listen to things, we hear one word and we already have a misconsumption of what they're talking about when it comes to discrimination. But glad, Paul he was able to clarify that and to let us know what exactly that means, so we'll keep our finger on the pulse when it comes to this. And because our privacy is definitely important, especially when it comes to being online, how we can protect ourselves and protect those who are most vulnerable. That's our young children and our aging and adult senior population as well too. All right, when we get back, we're going to talk about some fintech. How one company from overseas is bringing their talents over here to the US. Is it going to be a game changer? Is it going to be a disruption? You have to wait until we come back from our break. As we chat with him. You right back. In this world of technology, things are ever changing, rearranging. You need someone to help you out. I need someone that can be alone. You'll be with Paul. I'm gonna gas laying in the tech zone.