Episode 5 - Adelina Chalmers
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Kulvinder: welcome to another episode of Tech Exec Talks, where we dive into the world of technology, leadership, and innovation.
Kulvinder: I'm your host, Kulvinder. And although we've been away for a while, I'm excited about kicking off the podcast again, and this is an episode that I'm very much looking forward to. Our guest today is a renowned figure in the coaching space, known for the transformative impact on tech leadership through innovative coaching methods, she cuts straight to the heart of the matter when advising technology leaders in technology companies, she focuses entirely on the most pressing issues in the business and usually adds a minimum of $1 million worth of value to each company with which she works.
Kulvinder: She's worked with scientists and engineers from software engineers to CEO, CSO, CTO, who work for companies like Fujitsu, Arm, Amazon, Apple, and many, many more as well as hundreds of scale up.
Kulvinder: Welcome, Adelina. Chalmers.
Kulvinder: Great to have you with us.
Adelina: Thank you so much for having me.
Adelina: It's really Great to be here and I'm very much looking forward to the chat as well, 'cause I know you have some very insightful questions
Kulvinder: I have to admit, coaching's always [00:01:00] fascinated me.
Kulvinder: Not least because when I was starting my own leadership journey, there weren't many folks around who were offering coaching. Um, and I found that I had to find my own way a little bit.
Kulvinder: It's quite fascinating for me, and I I'm quite curious in, in terms of what inspired your journey to, to go into coaching.
Adelina: Oh, that's a, that's a great question. First of all, can I just say I'm not convinced that I actually do coaching itself? Um, what I do is much more business advising of engineering background leaders. Um, coaching from my perspective is not, is kind of a little bit of what I do, but I would say 90% is not what I do at all.
Adelina: But, it looks like that on the surface, I would say
Kulvinder: . All right. Uh, that, that's interesting. What are the differences
Kulvinder: between coaching and sort of your approach?
Adelina: Yeah. So from my perspective in a lot of confession time, a lot of vice presidents of engineering that I've worked with [00:02:00] are really not keen on the work on coaching in the traditional sense, because the key frustration they had was. That they, they felt that there's this person that the business assigned for them with whom they tell their issues and the person replies with questions like, so what do you think you can do about it?
Adelina: They said, well, if I knew what to do about it, then I wouldn't be asking you to come here. So, um, this is the sort of coaching I'm talking about the, the kind of coaching where the person doesn't have any real business experience to help and guide the engineering leader. Think about questions they're not even thinking of asking and problems and risks.
Adelina: They're not even thinking of asking. So this is why I'm saying that what I do is not coaching because. Life coaching in kind of traditional sense, it assumes that you have all the answers within you. However, you don't know how to find them yourself 'cause you're too close to the problem. The kind of coaching that [00:03:00] I do and the kind of coaching that, you know, some other people do, I'm sure as well, is that we, we don't just assume the person has all the answers inside because often they don't.
Adelina: 'cause the reason they're having challenges is because the job grew above their skills and now they need to figure out new ways of working and new ways of doing things that are they, they sometimes need guidance to figure out what actually they could be working on. And if they, if your coach were just to guide a general coach who doesn't understand engineering business would just guide them.
Adelina: In general, there's a ceiling for the amount of benefit they can get from that. Does that make
Kulvinder: does. Yeah. No, and um, that, that actually leads me nicely onto my next question, which is, so obviously you and I have spoken before, and, um, one of the things that you said that really caught my attention was, is that you don't recommend coaching for everyone. [00:04:00] Um, so mean, is is that part of the reason why, is, is your approach why you, you
Kulvinder: think coaching is not for everyone or is there more to it?
Adelina: Uh, that's a brilliant question. Yeah. So I'll give you a real example to, um, ref to really show you what I'm talking about when I say that. Um, a CTO came to me and said that his vice president of engineering was struggling. Um, he felt completely demotivated in the job, and even though he was performing really well and the business was very happy with his performance, this VP of engineering.
Adelina: Felt demotivated and unhappy. And, um, the CTO said to me, I think he might need some coaching with you. Now when I start to work with someone, I don't assume they just need coaching because actually that's just like one size fits all. And I'm not a cookie cutter kind of person. So instead, uh, what I did and what I do, the process I take people through is I go, I speak to the person above [00:05:00] them.
Adelina: I mean, in this case he was the CTO. In the case of a CTO, when they are the one having trouble, I speak to their CEO or a board member. So I speak to someone above, I speak to a peer on the side of them. And I speak to someone they manage down below. And by having this four point discussion, 'cause obviously I talk to them, so them themselves and then three other people around them, I can gather what the problem actually is.
Adelina: 'cause they're seeing the cause, they're seeing the side effects of the problem, but they don't necessarily know what the problem is. And people say, well, let's work together for three months and see if we figure out what it is. That's just too long in my opinion. So I just make an action plan and I say, actually this is the problem.
Adelina: And in this case, in the case of this particular VP of engineering, his problem was that he felt like he was running around ragged and he wasn't achieving [00:06:00] anything and he felt like he's not adding any value anywhere. But actually what was going on, the reason he felt that was because he didn't have a very clear job description.
Adelina: And in fact, in my experience. 99.99% of CTOs and VPs of engineering that I've worked with do not have a clear job description. And I actually helped them realize what they're, what the VP of engineering role is really about and what they're actually doing at the moment. They're performing the role of engineering manager for the most part.
Kulvinder: Excellent. So that is, that that 300, almost that 360 degree view you, you get, um, I suppose, allows you to have that holistic view. And I guess it sounds like by pulling on those levers of above, below and kind of peer, you, you, you're able to ascertain what they think that individual should be doing as well as what the individual, and then I guess work out what the difference is between
Kulvinder: those and what therefore what the problem might be.
Adelina: [00:07:00] Uh, that's one part of it. But the other part of it that nobody else seems to acknowledge when I'm in the process and realise is that I observed the line dynamic between them. When someone underperforms, they're never alone in that underperforming. It looks like they're alone. It looks like it's only their fault and they're the person or the tr the troublemaker.
Adelina: But I always find there is a dynamic at play. So I look at the dynamic between them and their engineers, a dynamic between them and their peers, and the dynamic between them and the people above them. So then I can tell, so one of the things that I do is I advise as the process carries on. If, for example, in this situation, I'm not joking, this guy's problem was fixed within a week.
Adelina: At the end of the week when I told him the answer, he could see the menu of stuff he needed to do, and that was it. And he was happy. And even now I checked in with him, he's great, he's happy, he's really still enthusiastic. Almost a year on, [00:08:00] um, which is amazing, a week. Imagine if we had signed up for three months of coaching,
Kulvinder: indeed.
Adelina: three months to come to the seat, plus so much more money spent, you know?
Adelina: Um, but yes, essentially the. Um, the dynamic between these people is absolutely crucial. And if I were to start working with them, or at the end of the first discovery phase where I identify what the problem actually is, I advise the CEO as well or their peers wherever the source of the challenge is. But usually it's the CEO or the person above them, the CTO.
Adelina: I advise them how to be better or different with the person I'm talking to, the CTO or the VP of engineering so they can help them perform better. Because often I find is that dynamic between the CEO, CTO, CTO VP of engineering that um, does, doesn't help the VP of engineering to perform or the CTO to perform.
Kulvinder: That. I mean, that sounds [00:09:00] like in a fairly short space of time, a very pretty transformative experience for, for all concerned. Um, have you, I I'm gonna ask you to, uh, see, see if you've got one that, that, uh, beats that story in terms of, have you have, is there a, is there an even more transformative
Kulvinder: experience that, that you think you facilitated?
Adelina: Well, I mean, I have another, another example. Um, I, I, I had a CTO in a company, about 3000 people, uh, very long-established corporation. They were doing really well. Um, but the leadership changed, and this is very, very common. This was a very commer, you know, very experienced. CTO had been CTO for about 18 years, so you can't say, you know, there was someone who started yesterday.
Adelina: However, there was new board members and a new CEO. Now what the CTO was struggling with was getting the new board to agree to several million [00:10:00] pounds of investment in a product redesign. Now, you imagine you've been doing well for 18 years or for how 20 years along this company had been doing well in the market for why on earth would you redesign your product?
Adelina: There was a lot of resistance and worry in the boardroom that this could destroy their product and market share. So the CTO. Nine months backwards and forwards the board meetings trying to get a product redesign, and they were not approving it. So came to me and said, where's the blocker? What's going on?
Adelina: I, I've done this a million times. It's worked before. It's not working this time, and I have no idea why. So then I, I, um, I went through his presentation and I could see within three minutes why they weren't approving it. Because there was talk of embedded firmware, there was talk of using open source software and they were freaking out.
Adelina: The board was going, yeah, but who's gonna own the IP for this? You know, we're exposing ourselves to [00:11:00] danger here. So it was fascinating to, um, to see how he was talking about all of these good stuff. Um, to another technologist, it was good stuff, but to the board it sounded really threatening and I just helped him transform that into risk to the business, into impact on sales, into impact on customer retention, customer acquisition.
Adelina: And within minutes of the next board meeting, he got approval for all the funds he wanted, and the board said to him. Which made me laugh to be honest. The board said, um, this is very different than everything you've told us in the last nine months. How come you got it? You know, you did this? And he said, um, oh, I just saw a geek whisperer.
Adelina: And this is, to be honest, actually, my brand comes from that is people calling me that rather than me. I would've never come up with a brand myself. It was just someone else looking at my work and
Kulvinder: Fantastic. No, no, I think that's, that's a really good point. I mean, I think one of the challenges in engineering leadership is [00:12:00] having to communicate with different audiences in different ways. Um, and I think that's quite a common hurdle that, that, uh, a lot of people who are, you know, I suppose well experienced and also new do sometimes struggle with.
Kulvinder: Um, I mean in, in those terms, what are the other kind of common hurdles that, that you think, you know, or that you've seen other
Kulvinder: people, um, struggle with?
Adelina: And when we talk about other people, we mean CTO
Kulvinder: is VP of engineering. Yeah. People in senior engineering.
Kulvinder: leadership roles.
Adelina: Brilliant question. I'll give you three of the most common challenges I have seen. Now, keep in mind I see people who are asking for help. So it could be a skewed, uh, kind of data set, essentially, but this is what I see. The first and most common challenge people face. CTOs VPs of engineering's face is credibility with the board.
Adelina: They often do not have credibility with the board. [00:13:00] Um, they struggle to gain that credibility and even CTOs in companies, uh, you know. 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, 50,000, 800,000 people, they still struggle, can struggle with this. Even though they've been in that company for 15 years, they thought they were doing very well.
Adelina: New, new CEO starts, new board member, something changes at a leadership level above them and all of a sudden they find themselves losing credibility with a board. And that is, um, extremely important because without credibility they can't get anything over the line. The second challenge that I see them facing is. Um, dealing with people, leadership challenges, they often struggle having difficult conversations early, leaving them too late, causing massive [00:14:00] disasters, massive disengagement and serious issues under them. They don't even know what, uh, problems people are having underneath, and then they blow up in their
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: back to credibility, making them look really bad in the boardroom and making the boardroom feel like they're not in control of engineering.
Adelina: And linked to this is the challenge that a lot of CTOs struggle with, of building a business case, explaining engineering needs in terms of business impact. In terms of business needs and, um, often CTOs are seen by the board, even in big companies as running a black box. They don't know and they cannot answer the question of how much is it costing the company to produce this product or this feature.
Adelina: And often CTOs can't answer that question clearly, and those CTOs who can't [00:15:00] answer that question look really bad in the boardroom.
Kulvinder: Yeah, I mean, I think that being able to establish your technology value proposition for, for what it is you want to do is, is a key, key thing. And, and actually that brings me on nicely to my next question, which was, I mean, a lot of CTOs tend to come from the technical. Route. Um, and I, you know, if I think back to my own kinda experience, I was a hands-on developer, um, and can kind of ha had done enough of it to, uh, to feel like, um, you know, I didn't really want to do anymore.
Kulvinder: And an opportunity came up to, um, go into development management. Um, the company was gonna hire someone externally, and I put my hand up and said, look, if you give me six months, let me see how I go. Um, and to be fair to them, they, you know, they were kind enough to let me have a go at it. Um, but at that point I was in the deep end, right?
Kulvinder: I, I had, um,
Kulvinder: I had no training, um, I had no mentoring. Um, and, you know, in [00:16:00] many ways I had to find my own way by reading, which is, which is an approach for sure, but doesn't necessarily give you everything that, that you need. So I think moving from that technology-focused role to a leadership role does.
Kulvinder: Require it, it's quite significant as a shift. So if, um, so if I think back, if, if I was starting today, what do you think, what advice would you, you
Kulvinder: give me as I made that
Kulvinder: leap?
Adelina: Brilliant. I mean, you put yourself forward. That's very brave and well done for making the shift yourself. Even though I'm imagining it would've been a very steep mountain to climb, um, I would actually have said to them, look, I'm, I'm sure I can do this, and if after six months I can show that show, I can do it.
Adelina: Could I have some support going forward? Because I'll be able to accelerate my transition and delivery much faster. And also your, the business will get a [00:17:00] lot better return on investment on my time and my, uh, ability to get. The best value out of engineering for the business. So even if you volunteer yourself, yes, prove to them that you have it in you, you have what it takes to have be at that level up.
Adelina: However, I would always ask for support afterwards because without that support, without, uh, you, you're gonna make mistakes. Um, which is fine. But if there's enough of the same mistake over and over again, then you start losing credibility and then it becomes snowballs into something much bigger than it needs to be.
Adelina: Uh, if it was addressed from the beginning, and this is the thing that often I say to people, CTOs in particular, often come to me too late. By the time they came to me with something, the credibility was shattered. They were shouting at each other with other board members or C-level people, [00:18:00] it's very hard to recover from that.
Kulvinder: That leads me onto my next question, which was gonna be, I, I think, you know, leadership in any role is extremely demanding and tricky. Um, I think in technology roles, my sense is it demands a unique sort of set of skills. Um, do, do you have a view on what skills will make you almost indispensable, um, in a technology leadership
Kulvinder: role?
Adelina: Oh gosh, that's a really good question. Um, I mean, the first skill I would say is people, if you are not arrogant and defensive and you don't aspire to be a CTO because you want to be the alpha geek in the room rather than the business technologist in the room, which is different. Um. I think with, with good people skills, being able to inspire people to deliver a vision for the technology the company needs to succeed is [00:19:00] absolutely crucial.
Adelina: Also, um, linked to this, a lot of CTOs don't realize that the bigger the engineering department gets, the biggest skill they need is influencing people. Influencing skills, negotiation skills, but really influencing other people to deliver what they need and having that clarity of communication of what is needed to be delivered.
Adelina: Because you can't do it yourself anymore. You have to scale yourself through other people. So people, skill in terms of managing them, inspiring them, influencing them, and scaling yourself through them.
Adelina: The second thing is the ability to translate engineering into business terms and business value. That is much easier said than done because a lot of, one of the challenges that I didn't mention earlier when I said the top three challenges I see, one of them is.
Adelina: Addressing technical debt, [00:20:00] especially actually as the company scales fast, the company becomes very successful. You get to 500, a thousand people and all of a sudden the biggest problem you have is legacy software. The biggest problem you have is that, um, technical debt is holding you back at scale, and you have to make some of the business decisions about, okay, um, where do we spend most time addressing technical debt to ensure quality of service?
Adelina: The th thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers we now have whilst also making sure that all of the functionality is there and making sure that there's very little to no disruption to service as usual. And these kind of decisions. Again, if you are only focused on the technology, you forget there's a customer you're gonna impact by making those changes. And that's why this is another absolutely crucial [00:21:00] term. And the, the third kind of aspect or skill that you need to have to become indispensable as a chief technology officer is your ability to look to the future, to look and, and add, to put two and two together with, with regards to where is the market going, where is technology going, and how does our product need to look like in five years
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: that it will keep customers satisfied. And this is actually what this CTO that I said to you was trying to get money from the board. Even though experienced was doing, he was trying to get remote updates onto their hardware devices rather than have updates, uh, done by returning the device to, to the, to the office and then returning it back to the customer, which was the old way of doing it.
Kulvinder: Yeah. No, that's, that's fascinating. I mean, I think when, when you say it all makes complete [00:22:00] sense and I think that that definitely mirrors, um, you know, my experience in the field and what I found, again, through sometimes not getting it right, what works and what doesn't work. Um, I've got an interesting kind of question to statement and question to pose to you, which is, uh, you know, recently somebody said to me what I thought was the most important thing, um, in leadership, and this was coming from an engineering manager.
Kulvinder: Um, and my answer to that was empathy. Um, and, you know, just having the ability to put oneself in other folks shoes a bit, be that, you know, people who report to you above you, your peers, um, I've always found that, that that's kind of served me well as a, as a, as a skill. Um, and I, I guess you kind of touched on that.
Kulvinder: It was one of your, one of the indispensable skills that you mentioned. Um, have you, have you had [00:23:00] examples where maybe a lack of that, uh, has negatively
Kulvinder: impacted folks?
Adelina: Oh Christ. I mean, absolutely. If empathy is crucial to good leadership, um, I often try to avoid the word because a lot of CTOs and a lot of engineering folks, um, steer clear away from it 'cause they think it's a lot of fluff and a lot of stuff that just, uh, some wishy washy rubbish over there. That makes no sense.
Adelina: You know, actually what matters is the technology and people, you know, they'll, if they, the technology is good, people will get it and they'll, they'll buy it or people will wanna work on it and they'll be inspired by it. And, um, the. I would say lack of empathy, um, can destroy, uh, relationships, can destroy trust.
Adelina: Clear examples. Um, one of the, the worst things a CTO can tell someone is if they're, for example, [00:24:00] underperforming to say in front of the whole team, uh, John, you are the slowest of all of them here. Why can't you get it together and deliver this software faster? I was waiting for this feature last week.
Adelina: Shaming people in front of other people without even realizing that you're shaming them is such a disastrous consequence of having no self-awareness that you lack that empathy and lack that ability to be assertive with people whilst not damaging them.
Kulvinder: Yeah, absolutely.
Adelina: I am not saying you shouldn't tell people they're not performing, but the way you do it matters immensely.
Adelina: Even when you fire someone, the kind of loyalty you want to get from employees because you've been such an empathetic leader is when you make someone redundant for them to say, I know it's not, it's not easy for you. It's not easy for me. I don't like being very redundant, but I understand why you're doing it.
Adelina: There are no hard feelings if you [00:25:00] hear that from an employee. You know, you've done a brilliant job as a leader and you shouldn't feel bad from doing making the redundancy. It's a fact of life. Sometimes you have to do it.
Kulvinder: No, indeed. Indeed. I think empathy is, is for me, it goes back to also what you were saying about, you know, that delivering on the technical side of things, because I think there is a, a point at which for you to be able to deliver technical change, um, and construct the value of it in business terms, you have to have empathy and, and understanding of what folks on the other side of what what you're trying to communicate are, are likely to receive and hear and want to, and want to hear as well.
Kulvinder: So, no, I completely, I completely agree with you. Um, that you, you touched on something there around redundancy and obviously delivering bad news. In my experience, it's always tough. Um, and definitely not, certainly for me, it's not something that ever gets any easier either. Do. Do you have a way that, you know, again, let's take empathy outta the equation.
Kulvinder: Do [00:26:00] you have a way that you recommend leaders deal with that kind of thing?
Adelina: Yeah, it's a very good question. Um, I'll give you a real example. Um, someone said to me that, uh, their boss told them that they're underperforming and if they don't get their act together, they're gonna fire them. This person started crying in the meeting.
Adelina: The CTO looked like this, had no idea what to do, and said, this is not something you should be crying over. There are worse things in the world. And the person felt even worse and started crying even harder. And this is a classic example of someone again, who doesn't understand what empathy is and someone who doesn't necessarily have empathy. And unfortunately in this situation, the person felt very, very bruised and asked to be asked to shift the departments to another [00:27:00] CTO.
Adelina: This is a massive corporation so they could shift because in corporates there's lots of CTOs. We can talk about that as well. But um, and I. I was thinking, you know, one of the key things that a lot of leaders don't know are listening to understand holding the space. Most of the time, people only listen to respond.
Adelina: Listening to respond is very different than listening to understand, because in this situation, let's say someone was underperforming, instead of saying to them, if you don't get your act together by next month, you're out. That is not, you're not even asking a question. You're not listening at all anyway.
Adelina: But you need to lean in and go, what's blocking you from being able to deliver this on time? You know, tell me what it's like for you. And instead of just waiting for their answer, so you can give them a reply and have already pre-made reply. Or if you notice that you are thinking ahead, trying to [00:28:00] figure out what should I say next in response to what they're saying.
Adelina: You are not listening to understand. You're listening to respond. And the other thing is listening to hold the space. So for example, in this situation, let's say you made them cry. You didn't mean to make them cry. You were nice about it. You know, let's say you do ask what's blocking you from delivering?
Adelina: And they start crying.
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: This is listening to hold the space. And then you can say, it's okay to cry. I'm here to listen when you are, no problem, no pressure. Let it out. Would you like a glass of water? And holding that space for them to feel it's okay to be, feel these emotions. One of the key problems that we have as adults is that when we were children, our parents told us to stop crying and they, our parents tried to do everything possible to stop us feeling our feelings, negative feelings as soon as possible.
Adelina: [00:29:00] Because feeling negative feelings is bad, actually feeling negative feelings. You have to process them. Otherwise you burst into tears in a meeting like this person, the situation this person
Kulvinder: Yeah, indeed. I, yeah, I, I, again, I completely agree. In certain circumstances, the culture, uh, and within the company and, and the, the com it could be the culture within the technology organization could be a little bit more distinct. Uh, you know, what part do you think that has to play in the, in your ability to hold a space or, or use empathy when
Kulvinder: relating to people?
Adelina: Yeah, absolutely. The culture of the organization matters a lot because if you have a culture that's quite unforgiving, a culture where if you as the CTO go to the CEO with a problem, you are not heard without wanting, you're going to replicate that. And you might find that when you join a different company with a different leadership style of the CEO, you copy that and maybe become more empathetic yourself because that's the bar, that's the [00:30:00] standard that's being set for you, and it is, it is very important.
Adelina: I imagine if you are under pressure from the the C-suite or the board to deliver this, and then seemingly this one person is in your way to getting it delivered. You are not gonna be. Um, often some people will, but most people will not have that ability to zoom out and be present in the moment and be so, to be able to hold the space for that person.
Adelina: And let's be realistic. Actually holding the space is the only solution in that situation. You're not gonna get any constructive outcome by forcing the person to push their feelings away and crack on with a, with a solution, it's not gonna happen. We have an emotional brain first and a logical neocortex on top.
Adelina: If the emotional brain feels attacked, which is what happens when people start crying or feels vulnerable, the logical [00:31:00] brain is goodbye. There is no energy going to the, the logical brain regardless of what a good of a CTO you are.
Kulvinder: that's really interesting. Very interesting. I suppose it does come back to the individual and then being able to influence change around you, uh, right. As much as you're able to, some things, you know, you can't, but I think it is about setting the tone yourself and then hopefully others around you can, can change too.
Kulvinder: So, changing tack slightly, um, you've mentioned that there are seven different types of CTO and I think rightly or wrongly, there is a perception the CTO is technically proficient, even though they may not have come via that route. Um, if you imagine a scenario whereby the CTO is talking to the board, uh, and the board, uh, uh, you know, somebody brings up ai, we've gotta do something with it, right?
Kulvinder: Um, they then turn to the CTO and say, look, we need to push this into our core product. How can we do that? You know, what's it gonna cost? Or, you know, [00:32:00] how can we best embed it? Um, should we be using generative ai? Should we be using computer vision? Should we using predictive analytics, right? Um. Now given the, the relatively new aspect of ai, still, I would say, um, the board are, assuming right, that the CTO is gonna have an answer on tap, ready to go.
Kulvinder: Um, what advice would you give the CTO in that kind of
Kulvinder: scenario?
Adelina: So, um, first of all, it's, it's really interesting if a board expects the CTO to come up with answers off the cuff. Um, they clearly are a non-technical board that understands technology much at all. Um, obviously the CTO has to say that, you know, 'cause this is, this is a new thing the business is considering, therefore, the CTO has to say that.
Adelina: I need to look into various options because, and they can maybe [00:33:00] think of some options off the cuff in terms of how AI can help the business. Here's the thing, the board is not looking for technical answer from the CTO. They're looking for a business answer in terms of how can AI help us do customer service faster?
Adelina: Or something like that. And how quickly would it, would it take for us to be able to embed it in our current customer dealings or whatever. So one of the, so yes, I know it's new technology. Um, and the board, honestly, the assumption from the CTO often is that they're looking for the, the technical detail of how we're gonna do this is, you know, is this, 'cause they seem to think it's possible, but actually, um.
Adelina: I had this question, um, years ago from, uh, from some engineers, actually top engineers where, where a, a [00:34:00] big, big, big CEO was asking them this, uh, similar thing where the latest trend, the latest fad of technology. Oh, can we make use of that for our business? Um, they, the CTO can say, I will need to, to look into how this would integrate with our current systems.
Adelina: Um, but AI can produce X, y, and Z for the business. I have to see if it produces it at the level of detail and quality that we need not to impact negatively our customer satisfaction or our sales. So. In this kind of situation when the board, you know, brings up the latest fad. 'cause it is, please challenge me if, if, uh, the situation you're talking about isn't that, but if it, it's ai that's the latest hot topic everybody's talking about and looking, how can we make use of it for our company, right?
Adelina: So the, the board people have no idea about how this, this integration would [00:35:00] work. They also have no idea how AI can mess up their business if it's not done properly. So this is where the CTO can bring up the risks of using AI and saying that we, we, I need to calculate those risks. You can't be expected to have the risks off the top of your head, but you can say this is potential risks.
Adelina: And anyone knowing AI can think of a few risks that AI can pose to their company. You know, 'cause you know what AI is about. Most people have used charge EBT by this point, including the CTO. So does that, does that answer your question? Please
Kulvinder: No, no. I think it does. I mean, I think the, um, I, I guess it's, yeah, it's, I think for me, ai, and the reason I picked it as an example is because it's very much in the public consciousness right now. Um, and I think, you know, it's, I, I mean, it was a fictional scenario. It's not something that I've encountered myself, but I can imagine it taking place, which, which I was intrigued to, to hear what, how [00:36:00] you, how you would, uh,
Kulvinder: suggest dealing with that
Adelina: so there is an expression that I've taught people to use when they have A CEO who has all these brilliant ideas all the time, and the expression the CTO needs to use is what I need to have in place before I can do this is X, Y, and Z. So you are, because, you know, the CEO has no idea. They just heard the word ai.
Adelina: They go, Ooh, that sounds sexy. We need to use that for our company and whatever. But actually it's the CTO's role to say, actually, in order to, to see if AI suits us, I need to do, um, um, a piece of research or I need to do, um, a feasibility study, or I need to check the risks. Because, because we're in financial services, the risk could be huge for us.
Adelina: We might not be compliant with regulatory bodies anymore. So you see how you bring it back to the risk on the
Kulvinder: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Adelina: rather than going into the, oh, um, yes, we can [00:37:00] put a chat bot in five minutes, let's see how that goes. And then the estimation of five minutes is not good enough, you know, because it's not actually accurate.
Adelina: So then they need to say, I need to be able to look at X, Y, and Z first to be able to give you an answer if that's possible. Managing expectations upwards is extremely important. And you've just raised Ashley with this brilliant question. You've raised. Another area of weakness that I've noticed for CTOs, they often struggle to negotiate, push back, and manage expectations.
Adelina: With non-technical leaders, it's extremely important that they educate technical leaders, but not in a non-technical leaders, but not in a technical manner. Educate them in in the sense of, like I said, now the risk to the business if we use AI could be X, y, and Z. The benefits could be X, y, and Z, but the impact on customer satisfaction could be negative because of so and so.
Adelina: That's how the CTO needs to talk about the, [00:38:00] these fancy technologies rather than AI version ABC, which is the, the tendency I've
Kulvinder: Absolutely. And, and in, and in terms of kind of engineering leadership, be it CTO or VP of engineering, would you say we, we've touched on this, but would you say that is the one of the most important traits that, that people can do to, you know, continually prepare themselves for their current role? Maybe future roles as well, that they, having that, being able to frame things in business terms?
Adelina: A hundred percent the sense Any, any key, you know, key words, any, uh, latest um, fashion words that are, are, are posed around the business, the CTO has to always translate those back into risk, into cost, into quality.
Kulvinder: Definitely, definitely. No, I agree. Um, look, I, I could, um, I'm sure I've got lots more questions that I'd love to ask you, but I'm conscious that I've already taken up a [00:39:00] lot of your time today. Um, so look, first of all, thank you very much. I really appreciate you sharing your, your experience, knowledge and insights.
Kulvinder: Um, I think it'd be great to set up a. Another conversation at some point, um, as well. But, um, again, thank you very much for joining me. I hope you, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as well.
Adelina: Absolutely love the questions. You are fantastic Kulvinder at asking these questions. I love it when you challenge me as well with questions that perhaps I might not have been asked exactly the same before.
Kulvinder: Thanks again for your time. Um, and I hope everyone else listening to this enjoyed the episode. And, until next time, stay curious.
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[00:00:00]
Kulvinder: welcome to another episode of Tech Exec Talks, where we dive into the world of technology, leadership, and innovation.
Kulvinder: I'm your host, Kulvinder. And although we've been away for a while, I'm excited about kicking off the podcast again, and this is an episode that I'm very much looking forward to. Our guest today is a renowned figure in the coaching space, known for the transformative impact on tech leadership through innovative coaching methods, she cuts straight to the heart of the matter when advising technology leaders in technology companies, she focuses entirely on the most pressing issues in the business and usually adds a minimum of $1 million worth of value to each company with which she works.
Kulvinder: She's worked with scientists and engineers from software engineers to CEO, CSO, CTO, who work for companies like Fujitsu, Arm, Amazon, Apple, and many, many more as well as hundreds of scale up.
Kulvinder: Welcome, Adelina. Chalmers.
Kulvinder: Great to have you with us.
Adelina: Thank you so much for having me.
Adelina: It's really Great to be here and I'm very much looking forward to the chat as well, 'cause I know you have some very insightful questions
Kulvinder: I have to admit, coaching's always [00:01:00] fascinated me.
Kulvinder: Not least because when I was starting my own leadership journey, there weren't many folks around who were offering coaching. Um, and I found that I had to find my own way a little bit.
Kulvinder: It's quite fascinating for me, and I I'm quite curious in, in terms of what inspired your journey to, to go into coaching.
Adelina: Oh, that's a, that's a great question. First of all, can I just say I'm not convinced that I actually do coaching itself? Um, what I do is much more business advising of engineering background leaders. Um, coaching from my perspective is not, is kind of a little bit of what I do, but I would say 90% is not what I do at all.
Adelina: But, it looks like that on the surface, I would say
Kulvinder: . All right. Uh, that, that's interesting. What are the differences
Kulvinder: between coaching and sort of your approach?
Adelina: Yeah. So from my perspective in a lot of confession time, a lot of vice presidents of engineering that I've worked with [00:02:00] are really not keen on the work on coaching in the traditional sense, because the key frustration they had was. That they, they felt that there's this person that the business assigned for them with whom they tell their issues and the person replies with questions like, so what do you think you can do about it?
Adelina: They said, well, if I knew what to do about it, then I wouldn't be asking you to come here. So, um, this is the sort of coaching I'm talking about the, the kind of coaching where the person doesn't have any real business experience to help and guide the engineering leader. Think about questions they're not even thinking of asking and problems and risks.
Adelina: They're not even thinking of asking. So this is why I'm saying that what I do is not coaching because. Life coaching in kind of traditional sense, it assumes that you have all the answers within you. However, you don't know how to find them yourself 'cause you're too close to the problem. The kind of coaching that [00:03:00] I do and the kind of coaching that, you know, some other people do, I'm sure as well, is that we, we don't just assume the person has all the answers inside because often they don't.
Adelina: 'cause the reason they're having challenges is because the job grew above their skills and now they need to figure out new ways of working and new ways of doing things that are they, they sometimes need guidance to figure out what actually they could be working on. And if they, if your coach were just to guide a general coach who doesn't understand engineering business would just guide them.
Adelina: In general, there's a ceiling for the amount of benefit they can get from that. Does that make
Kulvinder: does. Yeah. No, and um, that, that actually leads me nicely onto my next question, which is, so obviously you and I have spoken before, and, um, one of the things that you said that really caught my attention was, is that you don't recommend coaching for everyone. [00:04:00] Um, so mean, is is that part of the reason why, is, is your approach why you, you
Kulvinder: think coaching is not for everyone or is there more to it?
Adelina: Uh, that's a brilliant question. Yeah. So I'll give you a real example to, um, ref to really show you what I'm talking about when I say that. Um, a CTO came to me and said that his vice president of engineering was struggling. Um, he felt completely demotivated in the job, and even though he was performing really well and the business was very happy with his performance, this VP of engineering.
Adelina: Felt demotivated and unhappy. And, um, the CTO said to me, I think he might need some coaching with you. Now when I start to work with someone, I don't assume they just need coaching because actually that's just like one size fits all. And I'm not a cookie cutter kind of person. So instead, uh, what I did and what I do, the process I take people through is I go, I speak to the person above [00:05:00] them.
Adelina: I mean, in this case he was the CTO. In the case of a CTO, when they are the one having trouble, I speak to their CEO or a board member. So I speak to someone above, I speak to a peer on the side of them. And I speak to someone they manage down below. And by having this four point discussion, 'cause obviously I talk to them, so them themselves and then three other people around them, I can gather what the problem actually is.
Adelina: 'cause they're seeing the cause, they're seeing the side effects of the problem, but they don't necessarily know what the problem is. And people say, well, let's work together for three months and see if we figure out what it is. That's just too long in my opinion. So I just make an action plan and I say, actually this is the problem.
Adelina: And in this case, in the case of this particular VP of engineering, his problem was that he felt like he was running around ragged and he wasn't achieving [00:06:00] anything and he felt like he's not adding any value anywhere. But actually what was going on, the reason he felt that was because he didn't have a very clear job description.
Adelina: And in fact, in my experience. 99.99% of CTOs and VPs of engineering that I've worked with do not have a clear job description. And I actually helped them realize what they're, what the VP of engineering role is really about and what they're actually doing at the moment. They're performing the role of engineering manager for the most part.
Kulvinder: Excellent. So that is, that that 300, almost that 360 degree view you, you get, um, I suppose, allows you to have that holistic view. And I guess it sounds like by pulling on those levers of above, below and kind of peer, you, you, you're able to ascertain what they think that individual should be doing as well as what the individual, and then I guess work out what the difference is between
Kulvinder: those and what therefore what the problem might be.
Adelina: [00:07:00] Uh, that's one part of it. But the other part of it that nobody else seems to acknowledge when I'm in the process and realise is that I observed the line dynamic between them. When someone underperforms, they're never alone in that underperforming. It looks like they're alone. It looks like it's only their fault and they're the person or the tr the troublemaker.
Adelina: But I always find there is a dynamic at play. So I look at the dynamic between them and their engineers, a dynamic between them and their peers, and the dynamic between them and the people above them. So then I can tell, so one of the things that I do is I advise as the process carries on. If, for example, in this situation, I'm not joking, this guy's problem was fixed within a week.
Adelina: At the end of the week when I told him the answer, he could see the menu of stuff he needed to do, and that was it. And he was happy. And even now I checked in with him, he's great, he's happy, he's really still enthusiastic. Almost a year on, [00:08:00] um, which is amazing, a week. Imagine if we had signed up for three months of coaching,
Kulvinder: indeed.
Adelina: three months to come to the seat, plus so much more money spent, you know?
Adelina: Um, but yes, essentially the. Um, the dynamic between these people is absolutely crucial. And if I were to start working with them, or at the end of the first discovery phase where I identify what the problem actually is, I advise the CEO as well or their peers wherever the source of the challenge is. But usually it's the CEO or the person above them, the CTO.
Adelina: I advise them how to be better or different with the person I'm talking to, the CTO or the VP of engineering so they can help them perform better. Because often I find is that dynamic between the CEO, CTO, CTO VP of engineering that um, does, doesn't help the VP of engineering to perform or the CTO to perform.
Kulvinder: That. I mean, that sounds [00:09:00] like in a fairly short space of time, a very pretty transformative experience for, for all concerned. Um, have you, I I'm gonna ask you to, uh, see, see if you've got one that, that, uh, beats that story in terms of, have you have, is there a, is there an even more transformative
Kulvinder: experience that, that you think you facilitated?
Adelina: Well, I mean, I have another, another example. Um, I, I, I had a CTO in a company, about 3000 people, uh, very long-established corporation. They were doing really well. Um, but the leadership changed, and this is very, very common. This was a very commer, you know, very experienced. CTO had been CTO for about 18 years, so you can't say, you know, there was someone who started yesterday.
Adelina: However, there was new board members and a new CEO. Now what the CTO was struggling with was getting the new board to agree to several million [00:10:00] pounds of investment in a product redesign. Now, you imagine you've been doing well for 18 years or for how 20 years along this company had been doing well in the market for why on earth would you redesign your product?
Adelina: There was a lot of resistance and worry in the boardroom that this could destroy their product and market share. So the CTO. Nine months backwards and forwards the board meetings trying to get a product redesign, and they were not approving it. So came to me and said, where's the blocker? What's going on?
Adelina: I, I've done this a million times. It's worked before. It's not working this time, and I have no idea why. So then I, I, um, I went through his presentation and I could see within three minutes why they weren't approving it. Because there was talk of embedded firmware, there was talk of using open source software and they were freaking out.
Adelina: The board was going, yeah, but who's gonna own the IP for this? You know, we're exposing ourselves to [00:11:00] danger here. So it was fascinating to, um, to see how he was talking about all of these good stuff. Um, to another technologist, it was good stuff, but to the board it sounded really threatening and I just helped him transform that into risk to the business, into impact on sales, into impact on customer retention, customer acquisition.
Adelina: And within minutes of the next board meeting, he got approval for all the funds he wanted, and the board said to him. Which made me laugh to be honest. The board said, um, this is very different than everything you've told us in the last nine months. How come you got it? You know, you did this? And he said, um, oh, I just saw a geek whisperer.
Adelina: And this is, to be honest, actually, my brand comes from that is people calling me that rather than me. I would've never come up with a brand myself. It was just someone else looking at my work and
Kulvinder: Fantastic. No, no, I think that's, that's a really good point. I mean, I think one of the challenges in engineering leadership is [00:12:00] having to communicate with different audiences in different ways. Um, and I think that's quite a common hurdle that, that, uh, a lot of people who are, you know, I suppose well experienced and also new do sometimes struggle with.
Kulvinder: Um, I mean in, in those terms, what are the other kind of common hurdles that, that you think, you know, or that you've seen other
Kulvinder: people, um, struggle with?
Adelina: And when we talk about other people, we mean CTO
Kulvinder: is VP of engineering. Yeah. People in senior engineering.
Kulvinder: leadership roles.
Adelina: Brilliant question. I'll give you three of the most common challenges I have seen. Now, keep in mind I see people who are asking for help. So it could be a skewed, uh, kind of data set, essentially, but this is what I see. The first and most common challenge people face. CTOs VPs of engineering's face is credibility with the board.
Adelina: They often do not have credibility with the board. [00:13:00] Um, they struggle to gain that credibility and even CTOs in companies, uh, you know. 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, 50,000, 800,000 people, they still struggle, can struggle with this. Even though they've been in that company for 15 years, they thought they were doing very well.
Adelina: New, new CEO starts, new board member, something changes at a leadership level above them and all of a sudden they find themselves losing credibility with a board. And that is, um, extremely important because without credibility they can't get anything over the line. The second challenge that I see them facing is. Um, dealing with people, leadership challenges, they often struggle having difficult conversations early, leaving them too late, causing massive [00:14:00] disasters, massive disengagement and serious issues under them. They don't even know what, uh, problems people are having underneath, and then they blow up in their
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: back to credibility, making them look really bad in the boardroom and making the boardroom feel like they're not in control of engineering.
Adelina: And linked to this is the challenge that a lot of CTOs struggle with, of building a business case, explaining engineering needs in terms of business impact. In terms of business needs and, um, often CTOs are seen by the board, even in big companies as running a black box. They don't know and they cannot answer the question of how much is it costing the company to produce this product or this feature.
Adelina: And often CTOs can't answer that question clearly, and those CTOs who can't [00:15:00] answer that question look really bad in the boardroom.
Kulvinder: Yeah, I mean, I think that being able to establish your technology value proposition for, for what it is you want to do is, is a key, key thing. And, and actually that brings me on nicely to my next question, which was, I mean, a lot of CTOs tend to come from the technical. Route. Um, and I, you know, if I think back to my own kinda experience, I was a hands-on developer, um, and can kind of ha had done enough of it to, uh, to feel like, um, you know, I didn't really want to do anymore.
Kulvinder: And an opportunity came up to, um, go into development management. Um, the company was gonna hire someone externally, and I put my hand up and said, look, if you give me six months, let me see how I go. Um, and to be fair to them, they, you know, they were kind enough to let me have a go at it. Um, but at that point I was in the deep end, right?
Kulvinder: I, I had, um,
Kulvinder: I had no training, um, I had no mentoring. Um, and, you know, in [00:16:00] many ways I had to find my own way by reading, which is, which is an approach for sure, but doesn't necessarily give you everything that, that you need. So I think moving from that technology-focused role to a leadership role does.
Kulvinder: Require it, it's quite significant as a shift. So if, um, so if I think back, if, if I was starting today, what do you think, what advice would you, you
Kulvinder: give me as I made that
Kulvinder: leap?
Adelina: Brilliant. I mean, you put yourself forward. That's very brave and well done for making the shift yourself. Even though I'm imagining it would've been a very steep mountain to climb, um, I would actually have said to them, look, I'm, I'm sure I can do this, and if after six months I can show that show, I can do it.
Adelina: Could I have some support going forward? Because I'll be able to accelerate my transition and delivery much faster. And also your, the business will get a [00:17:00] lot better return on investment on my time and my, uh, ability to get. The best value out of engineering for the business. So even if you volunteer yourself, yes, prove to them that you have it in you, you have what it takes to have be at that level up.
Adelina: However, I would always ask for support afterwards because without that support, without, uh, you, you're gonna make mistakes. Um, which is fine. But if there's enough of the same mistake over and over again, then you start losing credibility and then it becomes snowballs into something much bigger than it needs to be.
Adelina: Uh, if it was addressed from the beginning, and this is the thing that often I say to people, CTOs in particular, often come to me too late. By the time they came to me with something, the credibility was shattered. They were shouting at each other with other board members or C-level people, [00:18:00] it's very hard to recover from that.
Kulvinder: That leads me onto my next question, which was gonna be, I, I think, you know, leadership in any role is extremely demanding and tricky. Um, I think in technology roles, my sense is it demands a unique sort of set of skills. Um, do, do you have a view on what skills will make you almost indispensable, um, in a technology leadership
Kulvinder: role?
Adelina: Oh gosh, that's a really good question. Um, I mean, the first skill I would say is people, if you are not arrogant and defensive and you don't aspire to be a CTO because you want to be the alpha geek in the room rather than the business technologist in the room, which is different. Um. I think with, with good people skills, being able to inspire people to deliver a vision for the technology the company needs to succeed is [00:19:00] absolutely crucial.
Adelina: Also, um, linked to this, a lot of CTOs don't realize that the bigger the engineering department gets, the biggest skill they need is influencing people. Influencing skills, negotiation skills, but really influencing other people to deliver what they need and having that clarity of communication of what is needed to be delivered.
Adelina: Because you can't do it yourself anymore. You have to scale yourself through other people. So people, skill in terms of managing them, inspiring them, influencing them, and scaling yourself through them.
Adelina: The second thing is the ability to translate engineering into business terms and business value. That is much easier said than done because a lot of, one of the challenges that I didn't mention earlier when I said the top three challenges I see, one of them is.
Adelina: Addressing technical debt, [00:20:00] especially actually as the company scales fast, the company becomes very successful. You get to 500, a thousand people and all of a sudden the biggest problem you have is legacy software. The biggest problem you have is that, um, technical debt is holding you back at scale, and you have to make some of the business decisions about, okay, um, where do we spend most time addressing technical debt to ensure quality of service?
Adelina: The th thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers we now have whilst also making sure that all of the functionality is there and making sure that there's very little to no disruption to service as usual. And these kind of decisions. Again, if you are only focused on the technology, you forget there's a customer you're gonna impact by making those changes. And that's why this is another absolutely crucial [00:21:00] term. And the, the third kind of aspect or skill that you need to have to become indispensable as a chief technology officer is your ability to look to the future, to look and, and add, to put two and two together with, with regards to where is the market going, where is technology going, and how does our product need to look like in five years
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: that it will keep customers satisfied. And this is actually what this CTO that I said to you was trying to get money from the board. Even though experienced was doing, he was trying to get remote updates onto their hardware devices rather than have updates, uh, done by returning the device to, to the, to the office and then returning it back to the customer, which was the old way of doing it.
Kulvinder: Yeah. No, that's, that's fascinating. I mean, I think when, when you say it all makes complete [00:22:00] sense and I think that that definitely mirrors, um, you know, my experience in the field and what I found, again, through sometimes not getting it right, what works and what doesn't work. Um, I've got an interesting kind of question to statement and question to pose to you, which is, uh, you know, recently somebody said to me what I thought was the most important thing, um, in leadership, and this was coming from an engineering manager.
Kulvinder: Um, and my answer to that was empathy. Um, and, you know, just having the ability to put oneself in other folks shoes a bit, be that, you know, people who report to you above you, your peers, um, I've always found that, that that's kind of served me well as a, as a, as a skill. Um, and I, I guess you kind of touched on that.
Kulvinder: It was one of your, one of the indispensable skills that you mentioned. Um, have you, have you had [00:23:00] examples where maybe a lack of that, uh, has negatively
Kulvinder: impacted folks?
Adelina: Oh Christ. I mean, absolutely. If empathy is crucial to good leadership, um, I often try to avoid the word because a lot of CTOs and a lot of engineering folks, um, steer clear away from it 'cause they think it's a lot of fluff and a lot of stuff that just, uh, some wishy washy rubbish over there. That makes no sense.
Adelina: You know, actually what matters is the technology and people, you know, they'll, if they, the technology is good, people will get it and they'll, they'll buy it or people will wanna work on it and they'll be inspired by it. And, um, the. I would say lack of empathy, um, can destroy, uh, relationships, can destroy trust.
Adelina: Clear examples. Um, one of the, the worst things a CTO can tell someone is if they're, for example, [00:24:00] underperforming to say in front of the whole team, uh, John, you are the slowest of all of them here. Why can't you get it together and deliver this software faster? I was waiting for this feature last week.
Adelina: Shaming people in front of other people without even realizing that you're shaming them is such a disastrous consequence of having no self-awareness that you lack that empathy and lack that ability to be assertive with people whilst not damaging them.
Kulvinder: Yeah, absolutely.
Adelina: I am not saying you shouldn't tell people they're not performing, but the way you do it matters immensely.
Adelina: Even when you fire someone, the kind of loyalty you want to get from employees because you've been such an empathetic leader is when you make someone redundant for them to say, I know it's not, it's not easy for you. It's not easy for me. I don't like being very redundant, but I understand why you're doing it.
Adelina: There are no hard feelings if you [00:25:00] hear that from an employee. You know, you've done a brilliant job as a leader and you shouldn't feel bad from doing making the redundancy. It's a fact of life. Sometimes you have to do it.
Kulvinder: No, indeed. Indeed. I think empathy is, is for me, it goes back to also what you were saying about, you know, that delivering on the technical side of things, because I think there is a, a point at which for you to be able to deliver technical change, um, and construct the value of it in business terms, you have to have empathy and, and understanding of what folks on the other side of what what you're trying to communicate are, are likely to receive and hear and want to, and want to hear as well.
Kulvinder: So, no, I completely, I completely agree with you. Um, that you, you touched on something there around redundancy and obviously delivering bad news. In my experience, it's always tough. Um, and definitely not, certainly for me, it's not something that ever gets any easier either. Do. Do you have a way that, you know, again, let's take empathy outta the equation.
Kulvinder: Do [00:26:00] you have a way that you recommend leaders deal with that kind of thing?
Adelina: Yeah, it's a very good question. Um, I'll give you a real example. Um, someone said to me that, uh, their boss told them that they're underperforming and if they don't get their act together, they're gonna fire them. This person started crying in the meeting.
Adelina: The CTO looked like this, had no idea what to do, and said, this is not something you should be crying over. There are worse things in the world. And the person felt even worse and started crying even harder. And this is a classic example of someone again, who doesn't understand what empathy is and someone who doesn't necessarily have empathy. And unfortunately in this situation, the person felt very, very bruised and asked to be asked to shift the departments to another [00:27:00] CTO.
Adelina: This is a massive corporation so they could shift because in corporates there's lots of CTOs. We can talk about that as well. But um, and I. I was thinking, you know, one of the key things that a lot of leaders don't know are listening to understand holding the space. Most of the time, people only listen to respond.
Adelina: Listening to respond is very different than listening to understand, because in this situation, let's say someone was underperforming, instead of saying to them, if you don't get your act together by next month, you're out. That is not, you're not even asking a question. You're not listening at all anyway.
Adelina: But you need to lean in and go, what's blocking you from being able to deliver this on time? You know, tell me what it's like for you. And instead of just waiting for their answer, so you can give them a reply and have already pre-made reply. Or if you notice that you are thinking ahead, trying to [00:28:00] figure out what should I say next in response to what they're saying.
Adelina: You are not listening to understand. You're listening to respond. And the other thing is listening to hold the space. So for example, in this situation, let's say you made them cry. You didn't mean to make them cry. You were nice about it. You know, let's say you do ask what's blocking you from delivering?
Adelina: And they start crying.
Kulvinder: Hmm.
Adelina: This is listening to hold the space. And then you can say, it's okay to cry. I'm here to listen when you are, no problem, no pressure. Let it out. Would you like a glass of water? And holding that space for them to feel it's okay to be, feel these emotions. One of the key problems that we have as adults is that when we were children, our parents told us to stop crying and they, our parents tried to do everything possible to stop us feeling our feelings, negative feelings as soon as possible.
Adelina: [00:29:00] Because feeling negative feelings is bad, actually feeling negative feelings. You have to process them. Otherwise you burst into tears in a meeting like this person, the situation this person
Kulvinder: Yeah, indeed. I, yeah, I, I, again, I completely agree. In certain circumstances, the culture, uh, and within the company and, and the, the com it could be the culture within the technology organization could be a little bit more distinct. Uh, you know, what part do you think that has to play in the, in your ability to hold a space or, or use empathy when
Kulvinder: relating to people?
Adelina: Yeah, absolutely. The culture of the organization matters a lot because if you have a culture that's quite unforgiving, a culture where if you as the CTO go to the CEO with a problem, you are not heard without wanting, you're going to replicate that. And you might find that when you join a different company with a different leadership style of the CEO, you copy that and maybe become more empathetic yourself because that's the bar, that's the [00:30:00] standard that's being set for you, and it is, it is very important.
Adelina: I imagine if you are under pressure from the the C-suite or the board to deliver this, and then seemingly this one person is in your way to getting it delivered. You are not gonna be. Um, often some people will, but most people will not have that ability to zoom out and be present in the moment and be so, to be able to hold the space for that person.
Adelina: And let's be realistic. Actually holding the space is the only solution in that situation. You're not gonna get any constructive outcome by forcing the person to push their feelings away and crack on with a, with a solution, it's not gonna happen. We have an emotional brain first and a logical neocortex on top.
Adelina: If the emotional brain feels attacked, which is what happens when people start crying or feels vulnerable, the logical [00:31:00] brain is goodbye. There is no energy going to the, the logical brain regardless of what a good of a CTO you are.
Kulvinder: that's really interesting. Very interesting. I suppose it does come back to the individual and then being able to influence change around you, uh, right. As much as you're able to, some things, you know, you can't, but I think it is about setting the tone yourself and then hopefully others around you can, can change too.
Kulvinder: So, changing tack slightly, um, you've mentioned that there are seven different types of CTO and I think rightly or wrongly, there is a perception the CTO is technically proficient, even though they may not have come via that route. Um, if you imagine a scenario whereby the CTO is talking to the board, uh, and the board, uh, uh, you know, somebody brings up ai, we've gotta do something with it, right?
Kulvinder: Um, they then turn to the CTO and say, look, we need to push this into our core product. How can we do that? You know, what's it gonna cost? Or, you know, [00:32:00] how can we best embed it? Um, should we be using generative ai? Should we be using computer vision? Should we using predictive analytics, right? Um. Now given the, the relatively new aspect of ai, still, I would say, um, the board are, assuming right, that the CTO is gonna have an answer on tap, ready to go.
Kulvinder: Um, what advice would you give the CTO in that kind of
Kulvinder: scenario?
Adelina: So, um, first of all, it's, it's really interesting if a board expects the CTO to come up with answers off the cuff. Um, they clearly are a non-technical board that understands technology much at all. Um, obviously the CTO has to say that, you know, 'cause this is, this is a new thing the business is considering, therefore, the CTO has to say that.
Adelina: I need to look into various options because, and they can maybe [00:33:00] think of some options off the cuff in terms of how AI can help the business. Here's the thing, the board is not looking for technical answer from the CTO. They're looking for a business answer in terms of how can AI help us do customer service faster?
Adelina: Or something like that. And how quickly would it, would it take for us to be able to embed it in our current customer dealings or whatever. So one of the, so yes, I know it's new technology. Um, and the board, honestly, the assumption from the CTO often is that they're looking for the, the technical detail of how we're gonna do this is, you know, is this, 'cause they seem to think it's possible, but actually, um.
Adelina: I had this question, um, years ago from, uh, from some engineers, actually top engineers where, where a, a [00:34:00] big, big, big CEO was asking them this, uh, similar thing where the latest trend, the latest fad of technology. Oh, can we make use of that for our business? Um, they, the CTO can say, I will need to, to look into how this would integrate with our current systems.
Adelina: Um, but AI can produce X, y, and Z for the business. I have to see if it produces it at the level of detail and quality that we need not to impact negatively our customer satisfaction or our sales. So. In this kind of situation when the board, you know, brings up the latest fad. 'cause it is, please challenge me if, if, uh, the situation you're talking about isn't that, but if it, it's ai that's the latest hot topic everybody's talking about and looking, how can we make use of it for our company, right?
Adelina: So the, the board people have no idea about how this, this integration would [00:35:00] work. They also have no idea how AI can mess up their business if it's not done properly. So this is where the CTO can bring up the risks of using AI and saying that we, we, I need to calculate those risks. You can't be expected to have the risks off the top of your head, but you can say this is potential risks.
Adelina: And anyone knowing AI can think of a few risks that AI can pose to their company. You know, 'cause you know what AI is about. Most people have used charge EBT by this point, including the CTO. So does that, does that answer your question? Please
Kulvinder: No, no. I think it does. I mean, I think the, um, I, I guess it's, yeah, it's, I think for me, ai, and the reason I picked it as an example is because it's very much in the public consciousness right now. Um, and I think, you know, it's, I, I mean, it was a fictional scenario. It's not something that I've encountered myself, but I can imagine it taking place, which, which I was intrigued to, to hear what, how [00:36:00] you, how you would, uh,
Kulvinder: suggest dealing with that
Adelina: so there is an expression that I've taught people to use when they have A CEO who has all these brilliant ideas all the time, and the expression the CTO needs to use is what I need to have in place before I can do this is X, Y, and Z. So you are, because, you know, the CEO has no idea. They just heard the word ai.
Adelina: They go, Ooh, that sounds sexy. We need to use that for our company and whatever. But actually it's the CTO's role to say, actually, in order to, to see if AI suits us, I need to do, um, um, a piece of research or I need to do, um, a feasibility study, or I need to check the risks. Because, because we're in financial services, the risk could be huge for us.
Adelina: We might not be compliant with regulatory bodies anymore. So you see how you bring it back to the risk on the
Kulvinder: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Adelina: rather than going into the, oh, um, yes, we can [00:37:00] put a chat bot in five minutes, let's see how that goes. And then the estimation of five minutes is not good enough, you know, because it's not actually accurate.
Adelina: So then they need to say, I need to be able to look at X, Y, and Z first to be able to give you an answer if that's possible. Managing expectations upwards is extremely important. And you've just raised Ashley with this brilliant question. You've raised. Another area of weakness that I've noticed for CTOs, they often struggle to negotiate, push back, and manage expectations.
Adelina: With non-technical leaders, it's extremely important that they educate technical leaders, but not in a non-technical leaders, but not in a technical manner. Educate them in in the sense of, like I said, now the risk to the business if we use AI could be X, y, and Z. The benefits could be X, y, and Z, but the impact on customer satisfaction could be negative because of so and so.
Adelina: That's how the CTO needs to talk about the, [00:38:00] these fancy technologies rather than AI version ABC, which is the, the tendency I've
Kulvinder: Absolutely. And, and in, and in terms of kind of engineering leadership, be it CTO or VP of engineering, would you say we, we've touched on this, but would you say that is the one of the most important traits that, that people can do to, you know, continually prepare themselves for their current role? Maybe future roles as well, that they, having that, being able to frame things in business terms?
Adelina: A hundred percent the sense Any, any key, you know, key words, any, uh, latest um, fashion words that are, are, are posed around the business, the CTO has to always translate those back into risk, into cost, into quality.
Kulvinder: Definitely, definitely. No, I agree. Um, look, I, I could, um, I'm sure I've got lots more questions that I'd love to ask you, but I'm conscious that I've already taken up a [00:39:00] lot of your time today. Um, so look, first of all, thank you very much. I really appreciate you sharing your, your experience, knowledge and insights.
Kulvinder: Um, I think it'd be great to set up a. Another conversation at some point, um, as well. But, um, again, thank you very much for joining me. I hope you, I hope you enjoyed the conversation as well.
Adelina: Absolutely love the questions. You are fantastic Kulvinder at asking these questions. I love it when you challenge me as well with questions that perhaps I might not have been asked exactly the same before.
Kulvinder: Thanks again for your time. Um, and I hope everyone else listening to this enjoyed the episode. And, until next time, stay curious.
