Dan Morrison & Jacque Williams join Tavis Smiley

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I'm Tavis, finally glad to have you join us in
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this hour of our program, as promised, a conversation I've
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been looking forward to because this week marks one hundred
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and sixty five years since the execution of white abolitionist
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John Brown. I once told my friend Dick Gregory, the
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late great Dick Gregory. I once told Dick Gregory that
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his friend and brother MLK, Doctor King was the greatest
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American we've ever produced. Y'all hear me say that all
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the time. That's my view that doctor King is the
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greatest American that we have ever produced. I said that
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to Dick Gregory one day, expecting Dick to agree with me,
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because he and doctor King were such a dear friends.
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And Dick looked me dead and I and said, wrong, wrong,
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Tavis Martin is not the greatest American this country's ever produced.
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I said, who is? He said, John Brown? John Brown
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is the greatest American we have ever produced, And nat
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set off a three or four hour debate between yours
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truly and Dick Gregory. In this hour, I am pleased
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to talk about the historical impact of the anti slavery
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advocate John Brown and what there is to learn from
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his legacy even today. With two distinguished guests, Dan Morrison
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and Jock Williams. I'll introduce him more fully in just
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a moment, but I want to commence this hour with
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a song you may have never heard. But speaking of
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great Americans, I've long believed that the greatest renaissance man
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in the history of this country. I didn't say Black.
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The greatest renaissance man in the history of this country
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is a guy named Paul Robson. And Paul Robson did
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a song about John Brown. It's only a couple minutes long,
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but take a listen to Paul Robson singing about John Brown.
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Call it sold Gosmarty, John Brown Funny lies abode And
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in the grave John Brown funny lies a mood. And
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in the grave John Brown Funny lies abode, And in
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the grave is sold Ghost party on.
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Its party on.
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The stars above it heaven. No, I'm looking kindly down
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the stars above in heaven. Now looking kindly down the
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stars above in heaven. No, I'm looking kindly. Done from
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the Greek Obo John Brown, this song goes party.
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It is so goes Barty, we go.
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So so. If you didn't know that Paul Robeson did
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a song about John Brown. Now you do, I say
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all the all the time. I leave the studio smarter
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every day than when I come in. These guests are
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always teaching things to me, and so my role is
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to share with you a little bit that I know.
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And I just happened to know that Paul Robson did
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a song about John Brown's. I thought i'd start this
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hour sharing that with you. Please to welcome to guests
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now for the hour, the co founder and executive director
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of Culture for a Cause, Jock Williams. Jock Williams, how
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are you today, Sir?
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I couldn't be finer if I was in South Carolina?
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And please to welcome the founder of the John Brown Project,
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Dan Morrison. Dan, how are you today? Sir?
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I'm doing well. Thank you.
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It's great to have you both on. Glad we have
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an hour that sort of unpack this. Let me just
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let me let me just start with this. Damn when
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you hear I'm sure you were aware of this, of course,
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but when you hear Paul Robson singing about John Brown,
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let me put it this way. I don't know if
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Dick Er, if Dick Gregory was writer. I'm right that
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John Brown or Doctor King is the greatest American we've
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ever produced. I'm gonna leave that where it is for
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the moment. What I do know is you got to
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be a bad man for Paul Ropes and to sing
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about you. When you hear that track, Dan, you think what.
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I think?
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You know?
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The first time I heard that song, I thought that
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John Brown song was a knockoff of the Battle Hymn
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of the Republic. But then the more I learned about it,
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I discovered that the John Brown song was the first song,
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and that the Battle Hymn was rewritten, was actually rewrote
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the John Brown song to sort of rewrite history a
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little bit. And so I get happy when I hear
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the John Brown song, and I'm a little less happy
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when I hear Battle Him of the Republic.
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Oh, I hear you, I hear you loud and clear.
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That's interesting, right there, Jock Williams. When you hear Paul
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Robson singing about John Brown, what comes to mind?
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Well with me? Paul Robison was just such a huge
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historical figure in the Black community, and he espous those
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values which I think we all are attracted to. And
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his version of the song just kinds of put things
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in perspective in terms of the notoriety for John Brown
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and the fact that we need to know more about
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John Brown and his contributions to our culture. And I
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believe that someone of Paul Robson's status of recognizing that
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speaks volumes it does indeed.
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All right, So you're going to learn a whole lot
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more in this hour about John Brown, the one who
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did greg We said he is the greatest American this
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country's ever produced. Dick Gregory didn't necessarily convince me of that.
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Maybe Jock and Dan can by the end of this hour.
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This week marks one hundred and sixty five years since
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the execution of the white abolitionist John Brown, and we're
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going to learn more about him for the rest of
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the hour on Tavis.
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Smile, Interrogating and unpacking.
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That's what we do around here.
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You're listening to Tavis Smiley. Freedom is an endless meeting.
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So let's get back to it with Tavis Smiley.
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Taras Smiley and Jock Williams and Dan Morrison as we
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spend the rest of this hour talking about John Brown.
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In case you just tuned in, this week marks one
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hundred and sixty five years since the execution of the
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white abolitionist John Brown, and I suspect it now a's
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a good time as any to learn more about John Brown.
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So I turned to historian Dan Morrison. Dan, before I
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get to John Brown's exploits, this audience knows that for me,
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I'm always fascinated by the backstory. So before we get
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to what we know John Brown did and the execution
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one hundred and sixty five years ago, for what he did,
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tell me about and we got time, We got now,
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So tell me more about the backstory. Tell me about
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John Brown, where he's born, where he's rased. Just give
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me the John Brown story here.
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Sure.
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You know, through the project that Jacques and I worked on,
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I got to become friends with the man, doctor Lewis Tacara,
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who has researched more about John Brown and written more
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biographies about John Brown than anybody living or dead. And
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so we've become friends, and I had a lot of conversations.
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I've learned a lot about him. You know, John Brown's
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life basically was one of passion for equality, fairness and truth.
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You know, on a most basic level, he stood up
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to bullies and he did that from the very beginning,
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and that began in Torrington, Connecticut, the town where we
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live with his parents, Owen Brown and Ruth Mills. You know,
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John Brown didn't wake up one day and decided to
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be an abolitionist. He was taught that by his parents.
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His parents had a deep commitment to equality and abolition,
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and that was instilled on them, you know, when they
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were young. You know, when his dad, Owen, was a
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little boy. His father died in the American Revolution, and
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his father's name was John incidentally died on Manhattan Island
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during the Revolution in a war camp. And so his
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mom was a single mom, and they lived on a
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farm and somebody, one of the neighbors lent his mother,
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you know, I use air quotes when I say lent.
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And one of their enslaved people. It was a man
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from Ghana. I believe his name was Sam, or his
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American name was Sam. And so Owen fostered a really
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deep connection with this guy who would carry him around
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on his shoulders while he was doing farm work. And
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so even as a little boy, you know, Owen, you know,
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gained this deep understanding and deep connection to equality throughout
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his life you know, he grew up as a young
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adult somewhere in Norfolk, Connecticut. There was a there was
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a family of an enslaved family there who had come
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had been brought north by a southern slaveholder. And when
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the southern slaveholder wanted to go home back south and
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bring the enslaved people with him, you know, Owen and
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some other townfolk stood up and got between the community
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members and the enslaver and they made it clear that,
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you know, the community was going to remain intact. And
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so his parents had a deep commitment to you know, equality,
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they and they instilled it in their kids. And you know,
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they moved to Ohio after Torrington. And you know, Owen
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was a conductor on the Underground railroad and it was
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actually one of the trustee founding trustees of Oberlin College there.
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You know, John Brown had a similar experience when he
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was young and he was, you know, twelve years old
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or so, had witnessed a white man, you know, beating
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the hell out of a young black boy the same
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age as Brown, who had become friendly with and he wrote,
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you know, he wrote in his biography, you know that
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this boy was every bit as much as or more
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his equal, which you know, those are pretty strong words.
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A few times.
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Oh yeah, And so that was you know, that was
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sort of a defining moment for him. Owen had his
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own defining moments, and so as as John Brown grew up,
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he was you know, he was he was always an abolitionist.
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He came a sheep farmer and a you know, a
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tanner and did a whole bunch of other stuff through life.
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But as you know, when he was born, there were
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fewer than a million enslaved Americans. By the time they
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hung him fifty nine years later, they were over four million.
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Right, So slave slavery.
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Wasn't it wasn't dying out slowly like some of the
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founders had expected it to it hoped it would. It
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was ramping up, you know, and and that that took
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you know, the out in Kansas when Kansas before Kansas
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was a state, when it was a territory. You know
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that it really took took front there where they they
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had overturned the Missouri Compromise. It was it was all
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about voting whether we were going to be a slave
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state or a free state. And it wasn't really an
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argument about whether slavery was going to continue or stop.
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It was how fast it was going to expand. And
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you know, so he had tried being nice and asking nicely,
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and tried voting and tried all of the legal channels
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and those didn't seem to work. It seemed pretty cool.
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I mean when you look at the brutality of what
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slavery was and and you know, I mean it was
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it was beatings, it was brutality, it was murder, it
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was rape every single day. It was not you know,
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violence was the language that these people spoke, and it
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was the language they understood. And John Brown eventually came
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to understand that. You know, you have to defend yourself
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and you have to take it to take the fight
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to him.
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Derek, first of all, thank you for that. I wanted
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I didn't want toy rupt. I wanted you to lay
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that backstory out. So we are on the same page
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here about how John Brown came to beat John Brown,
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and I get it. It started with his parents. Speaking
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of his parents, and were they where John Brown was
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raised and grew up. His parents were abolitionists, as you mentioned,
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but were they in an were they living in an
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area of other abolitions. I'm just trying to get a
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sense of the terrain that the neck of the Woods
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as it were that John Brown grew up in. You
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mentioned that his father, of course, was a conductor on
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the underground railroad. But give me, just give me a
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bit more about the area, the terrain that he grew
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up in. Are they in an area of abolitionists? Are
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they outliers in the area where they were where John
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Brown is raised.
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I mean, I think they were probably a little bit outliers,
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but not entirely. I mean, this is the end of
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the eighteenth century, right, so there were fewer enslaved Americans
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in you know, in Connecticut than there were in South Carolina.
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You know, he showed the church that they joined in
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Torrington was known as a tolerant church. They had the
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first African American minister there, Lemuel Haynes. Some people that
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lived nearby on the house on the road that they
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that they bought the house on the roads called John
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Brown Road. Now I don't think it was called that
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back then, but some close by neighbors were recently freed,
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you know, black Americans who were named the Prince family,
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and so, you know, New England has a history of
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helping neighbors you know, when it's time to get the harvest.
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In or whatever.
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So I'm sure they worked with their neighbors to you know,
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raise the barn or pick the pumpkins or whatever it
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was that they were doing. So I think it was
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sort of seeking it out, you know, it wasn't it
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was still earlier, you know. I mean this was just after,
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you know, before before eighteen hundred. Even it wasn't exploding yet,
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the Fugitive slave Law hadn't been passed, you know. It
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was people were still holding out hope that it was
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going to die out and that people would realize that
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it was a terrible practice instead of whatever they called it,
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their their peculiar institution.
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Tell me a bit more. I was I was struck,
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and I wanted to get Jock in this conversation, but
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I was struck by your reference to Oberlin. As it
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turns out, it's just a personal a personal note, if
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I might. But I graduated high school. There were a
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number of places that offered me scholarship money, and one
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of them was Oberlin. I did not accept. Yeah, I
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did not accept the ride that Oberlin gave me. I
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went on to Indiana University. Uh, I didn't go to Oberlin,
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but I've been there since then, I've spoken there. It's
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an amazing school. There's some well known graduates as you
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know of Oberlin over the years. It's it's, it's, it's
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it's a great school. I did not realize that that
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John Brown's family had a connection to Oberlin. Tell me
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a bit more about that and we'll get Jock in
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this conversation.
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Yeah, Owen was one of the founding trustees of Oberlin
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and just you know a lot of the people so
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Ohio back then it was called the Western Reserve and
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it wasn't a state yet, and it was actually like
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West Connecticut, so a lot of people from Connecticut moved
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out there. It was Connecticut Land and if you were
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if you had someone in your family was from the Revolution,
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you got land there. So a lot of people moved
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out there. And in fact, Hudson, Ohio looks an awful
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lot like a New England town because the houses all
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looked like New England houses. So he was he was
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active in abolition there and was you know, really worked
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towards equality for people. And so he was one of
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the trustees at Oberlin and then also case Western University,
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which wasn't Case Western University.
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Then it was. I can't remember what it.
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Was called, but but yeah, so it was always pushing
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the peanut forward and encouraging teaching his children the same
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way John Brown ended up teaching his children.
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Yeah, I love that story. I didn't realize that connection too, Oberlin.
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All right, Jock Wallnus, you've been patient. I appreciate that.
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Tell me more. We're going to continue this John Brown story,
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of course. But I'm curious now as to how you
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and Dan got together doing work around the John Brown project.
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Well, it was quite interesting because the organization Culture for Cause,
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our mission is to build community through music in the arts,
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and I was having a twenty five year anniversary of
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my time here in Torrington and celebrating that with the
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community and sharing some of the activities and initiatives and
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programs that culturefour Cause had been instrumental in part of
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the pun and Dan and I met. He liked the
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organization's direction where they're coming from, and he felt like
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he could be a contributor to that, to that means.
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So we're talking about different, you know, ideas, things we
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could do to embolden our mission. And George Floyd happened,
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and obviously that you know, impacted the whole country in
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a way that I'm still to this day not quite
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sure we're able to you know, grasp and understand. However,
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we felt that it was an not that we were
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being opportunist, but you know, social justice was something that
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was always something very near and dear to our hearts.
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So we felt like we wanted to make a statement
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about that, and understanding that John Brown was from Torrington
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and had at least some national recognition, we felt that
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it would be prudent to start a community arts project
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based on his narrative. So we went around and thought
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about how we could do this and do it in
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a way that wouldn't be exploitative, but that would be
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actually compliment complimentary to what he stood for. And we
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started tossing around some ideas and then that's when we
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came up with the music documentary and to share with
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people through music and a chronological timeline as to how
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the song about him of the Republic had changed throughout
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the decades and throughout the centuries, and how that made
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such a significant influence in our arts and our music
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and in our culture. So we try to do our
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or build our initiatives around the philosophy of collective community impact,
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and we kind of went to the community and asked
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them to get on board with us with this project
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and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Yep, this question might seem a strange question to ask
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right now, I've got two minutes here. Now will continue,
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We come forward and we'll get into to the other
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part of the story that this audience is curious about,
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I'm sure, and that is what John Brown did and
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why he is so regarded and why he was executed
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on hundred and sixty five years ago this week for
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what he did. We did that part of the story
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when we come forward. But to your point, now, Josh
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right quick, what do you regard as John Brown's legacy.
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Well, I think that we need to understand, especially in
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the black community, that all through our struggles, we've had
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allies from the other side of the aisle. And I'm
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sure that's where Gregory's sentiments were emanating from the fact
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that a lot of the battles that we were able
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to wage and win, we had some assistance. And when
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you have someone who's convicted to the point that John
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Brown was convicted in terms of carrying out this message
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and to leave a legacy that, for whatever reasons he
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felt like, were worth the sacrifices to make. I think
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that those sacrifices have to be duly noted, and we
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felt like it was proper to recognize that and bring
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to the forefront.
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We talked these days about how certain people get radicalized.
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That's a conversation, a term rather that we've had a
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significant conversation around it about over the years, living in
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the area that we live, how so and so, how
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person x ys he got radicalized to do what they did.
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I don't know that the word radicalized is a word
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that can apply to John Brown. What he did was rooted,
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as you heard Dan Opine on earlier and Jock address
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just now, it was rooted in a certain set of
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immutable principles. As I can put it that way You're
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a dancer. Earlier, John Brown had tried everything else, nothing
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else seemed to be working, and so he turned in
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the way that he did. And we will talk about
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that turn that John Brown took when we come forward
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on Tavis smile.
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For all those freedom loving thoughts, this is Tavis smiling.
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I feel likely.
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Sometimes he fails at fitting then that you're inside that
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Tavis Smiley show.
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Smiley, you are indeed with Dan Morrison and Jock Williams
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as we talk about the fact that this week marks
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one hundred and sixty five years since the execution of
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the white abolitionist John Brown. We're learning more about John
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Brown in this hour, including the John Brown's father, Owen,
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was there to help Oberlin College get off the ground
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in Ohio, and I was just curious about some of
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the folks who went to Oberlin thanks to the work
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of John Brown's father and others. Of course, but Bobby
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McFerrin is a graduate of Oberlin, Avery Brooks, Stephanie Rawlings Blake,
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former mayor of Baltimore, Adrian fenty, former mayor of d C,
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James McBride, brilliant writer, William Grant Steele, Kathleen Cleaver, Ishmael
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be An Event cl Ark, the new head of the CBC,
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who was on this program just yesterday. It was an
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Oberlin graduate, and Julia Cooper. The late great Reverend James Lawson,
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who passed away here in la earlier this year, went
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to Oberlin, as did the wife of W. B. Do Boys,
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Shirley Graham Do boys. Just some of the black folk
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who graduated from Oberlin on whose trustee board? John Brown's father,
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Owen sat I just love interesting factoids, and there you
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have some interesting factorid about some of these black graduates.
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So yeah, sure, sure s sure, I can I add something.
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Sure?
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My mother back in the day, she had a girl's
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assembly and every weekend they used to pack their gear
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up and go have retreats at Oberlin College.
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And I was.
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Young and didn't quite understand why Oberlin College. Why not
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you know, the University of.
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Dayton or.
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Or Cincinnati College.
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Yeah, you know, but.
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As we, you know, have found out, there is a
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significant cultural distinction for Oberlin College that just by the
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names that that you just mentioned pretty much signifies what
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that what that meant, and what that stood for.
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No, I'm glad you said that. I appreciate that. All right, Dan,
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let's get watching my clock. My time's getting away from him.
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So talk to me about John Brown. You made the
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punt earlier, and I'll let you take it anywhere you
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want to take it. But John Brown had watched, uh
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and witnessed and tried a little bit of everything. He'd
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always been an abolitionist, but at some point, something happens
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and he makes a turn. Tell me about that that point,
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what that was, and how it played itself out.
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Well, you know, he died one hundred years before I
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was born, so I never got a chance to meet
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him or talk to him.
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But I will.
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You know, you were saying you were talking about radical, Yeah,
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and the word you know, he was called a radical abolitionist.
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And something I learned from another history professor from University
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of Connecticut. You know, in those days when they were
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there was they were anti slavery people and they were abolitionists,
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and there was a distinction. Abolitionists generally were called radical abolitionists,
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not because they were violent, but because they believed in equality,
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because they were egalitarians, because they had interracial organizations where
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everyone had a seat at the table. That's what was
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radical to these people. A lot of the anti slavery
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people were still racist. They you know, there was this
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thing called the colonization Society where they just wanted to
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deport black people because they wanted the jobs, and they
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just wanted a free white society. They no black people,
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just free white and no slavery. They you know, they
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correct understood that slavery was a barrant, but they incorrectly
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believed that, you know, white supremacy was a thing. So
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you know, that was the landscape that he grew up in.
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And you know, I touched on a little bit about
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the brutality of slavery, but it was I mean, it
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was messed up, right. I mean people were beaten every day,
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people were killed, people were raped.
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I mean there were literally rape farms, you know.
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I mean they called them breeding farms or breeding operations
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or whatever, but I mean it's just disgusting and that's
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that's the language that these people were speaking. The practice
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was continually expanded and expanded and expanded. You know, they
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overturned the Missouri compromise so that they could get more
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states to be enslavement slates as long as they could
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get them to vote that way. That came out to
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Kansas and the Nebraska. You know, when Kansas was a territory,
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they was you know, everyone was deciding, well, how were
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we going to vote? You know, and there were more
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free free state people there, free soil people there. And
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so the John Brown's kids moved out to Kansas to
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go vote and help the place become a free state
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through democracy. It turns out that the enslavers and the
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white supremacists from the South and from Missouri had another idea,
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and they were shipping all kinds of people into the
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state to create violence. And you know, some people have
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heard about the Sack on Lawrence, Kansas, where a bunch
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of white supremacists, they were called Border Ruffians, they were
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called Red red Shirts, white League, various you know, white
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supremacist militias would come in and commit violence and you know,
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steal the ballot boxes and ship a bunch of voters
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in steal steel elections through violence.
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I mean it was it.
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Was an actual, you know, a pre Civil war war
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there in Kansas.
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There was actual battles.
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And so his kids had gone out there, you know,
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just to vote Kansas into freedom. And you know, the
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only they didn't bring a bunch of weapons with him.
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They just brought squirrel guns because they ate squirrels, I guess.
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And they started writing letters home and said, you know, Dad,
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we are being targeted out here because like, not only
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were these white terrorists targeting anti slavery people, but people
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like the Browns who were in favor of black empowerment
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were highly targeted. It became pretty clear that that the
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Browns were in the in the in the sights of
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of these Border Ruffians, and they were going to get
477
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they were going to kill him. You can read about
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it in old newspapers, you know. And so John Brown
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packed up a bunch of Sharp's rifles from the Springfield
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Armory and headed out west. They fought in the Battle
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of Blackjack and you know, won that, and they learned
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that there was a group that was headed towards the
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Brown family to kill him. Brown had learned how to
484
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.319
be a surveyor when he was younger, and so he
485
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:32.519
got out his surveying gear and he started surveying right
486
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:35.640
through the Border Ruffians camp just to verify it. And
487
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.240
listen to him talking. They didn't know who they were
488
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.240
talking in front of him. He heard firsthand that they
489
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.640
were planning to attack the Brown family. He went back,
490
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.839
and then the next night he went you know, and
491
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.240
dragged him out of their cabins and brought him down
492
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:51.960
to Potawatambee Creek.
493
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:53.480
And took their lives.
494
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:58.079
So the story that you know, you asked about his legacy,
495
00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:03.799
and it's really one of misunderstanding and actually this disinformation,
496
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.160
you know, I mean, you you hear that he killed
497
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.839
people in Kansas, but you don't hear that they were
498
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.960
terrorists who were, you know, gonna kill him the next night.
499
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.400
This was this was a territory, This was not a state.
500
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.160
There was no law enforcement.
501
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:19.920
There was no.
502
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:26.079
FBI, you know, the federal the federal government was was
503
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.720
being run by you know, enslavers. There was there was
504
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.440
no help, There was no one to call. It was
505
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.920
either it was either kill or be killed. And so
506
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:36.480
that's that's what they did.
507
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:41.319
You use two words a moment ago, Dan and they don't.
508
00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:44.720
They mean different things. Obviously, I want to just pressly
509
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:47.680
press on this just a little bit. When we when
510
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.119
we hear the story of John Brown, at least the
511
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:51.960
story we've been told over and over and over again,
512
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.480
which you now just sort of corrected the record for
513
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.119
many of us who haven't gotten that story right up
514
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:01.200
until now. Use the word misunderstanding and dis information. They're
515
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:04.200
obviously not the same thing. I'm gonna side with. I'm
516
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.319
going to side with disinformation that this story has not
517
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:11.160
been told accurately. It ain't a misunderstanding, Brother, is disinformation?
518
00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:11.640
Is it not?
519
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.200
Yeah, it's been I mean, his story has been written
520
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:17.319
by southern racists.
521
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:18.880
And northern racist right, you know.
522
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.200
And the song, the reason why his song was rewritten
523
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:23.519
is a perfect example.
524
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:23.799
You know.
525
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:28.640
Julia Ward Howe wasn't was an anti slavery person, and
526
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:32.319
her husband was actually one of the Secret Six, one
527
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:36.079
of the funders for John Brown's travels to to Kansas.
528
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.519
But she was not an egalitarian by any stretch of
529
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.359
the imagination, right. And the reason that that song was rewritten,
530
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:47.720
I mean it was popular during the Civil War, which
531
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.039
was years after he was killed, you know, and and
532
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.279
slaved people were singing it, soldiers were singing it, everyone
533
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.400
was singing it. Was it was a hit song, and
534
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:03.680
it was taking the focus away from Abe Lincoln and
535
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.119
putting it on John Brown. And so they wanted to
536
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:09.599
put the focus, take the focus away from black empowerment
537
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:11.800
and put it on a white savior.
538
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:16.280
Yes, so they we wrote the song. No surprise there.
539
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:20.039
Although it's fascinating history. When we come forward, I want
540
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:22.360
to ask this question of Dan and get Jock's take
541
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.280
on it as well. And that is what makes John
542
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:28.599
Brown fascinating for me in some regards is that when
543
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.480
we think of abolitionists, we don't think of violence, and
544
00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.199
we were talking earlier in this program to day about
545
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.320
the things that fathers won't do for their sons, Joe Biden,
546
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.840
Hunter Biden, the things that dad's won't do for their sons.
547
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:43.599
So I understand why John Brown packed up went Wes
548
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.840
to protect his family, to protect his children. I get
549
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:51.400
that part, and yet something is disconnected from me because
550
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.039
I think again of abolitionists, I don't necessarily think of violence.
551
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:56.840
But we'll talk about that part when we come forward
552
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.519
on Tavis Mind from the Park.
553
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:09.400
This is Tavis Smiley and the top rated African American
554
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:12.199
talk show hosts in the nation according to Talkers magazine.
555
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.159
Good taped Dad with Tavis Smiley.
556
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:15.880
Right now, Right now, Tavis Smiley and Dan Morrison and
557
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.519
Jock Williams, as we talk about the legacy of John Brown,
558
00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:23.400
executed one hundred and sixty five years ago this week,
559
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:27.119
UH this wide abolitionist. I have a really smart audience,
560
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:29.719
Dan and Jocks. I won't surprise either of you, and
561
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:33.000
so I love when people share stuff with me that
562
00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:36.800
I that I didn't connect. I mentioned speaking of Oberlin
563
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.360
once again, many of the amazing graduates black graduates, and
564
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.440
there are many others, of course, but black folks who
565
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.039
finished Oberlin and Obenon wouldn't have been there if it
566
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:49.039
hadn't been for John Brown's father and others made who
567
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:53.079
brought that school online. I mentioned James McBride and it
568
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.519
occurred to one of my listeners to share with me,
569
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:59.440
and they are correct that James McBride's book The Good
570
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:03.559
Lord Burn is about John Brown. It's about John Brown
571
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:07.000
in that book. That novel won the National Book Award
572
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:10.440
for Fiction back in twenty thirteen. I recall interviewing James
573
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:12.280
McBride about that book when it came out, so I
574
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.239
mentioned his name. I just didn't make that further connection.
575
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:18.199
But leave it to a brilliant audience to remind me
576
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.880
of that that James McBride's book The Good Lord Bird
577
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.400
is indeed about John Brown, and it won the National
578
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.199
Book Award for Fiction back in twenty thirteen. I love
579
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:30.239
my audience. That's it watching my time getting away from here? Dan,
580
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:36.039
tell me what's your read on this notion of abolitionists
581
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:36.960
and violence.
582
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:44.360
I mean, you know, I was watching All in the
583
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.880
family once when I was a little kid, and Meathead
584
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.559
said to Archie, you know, violence never solved anything. And
585
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:54.440
Archie said well, it solved World War two, didn't it.
586
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.360
You know?
587
00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:00.840
And so I mean we've Jacque and I never were
588
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.400
you know, we never embraced John Brown to advocate violence.
589
00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:09.239
We embraced John Brown to advocate his passion for equality
590
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.320
at some point, you know, Archie Bunker's right, and it's
591
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.039
if you've got a bunch of Nazis coming at you
592
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.280
and they're shooting at you, you're either gonna, you know,
593
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:26.679
collect bullets, or you're gonna shoot back. John Brown wasn't
594
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:31.000
didn't set out, He wasn't a bloodthirsty revolutionary that set
595
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.840
out to kill people. And that, I mean, the evidence
596
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.840
is in the history. He had ample opportunity to slaughter
597
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:41.000
lots of people, and he never did. He killed people
598
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.840
in self defense and then in Pottawatomy, you know, preemptively
599
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:49.599
his his his goal wasn't to start a revolution. His
600
00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:53.880
goal was to free people who are enslaved. You know,
601
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.000
there's a there's a fant I mentioned doctor to Caro
602
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:00.920
earlier Loud to Caro. He's written more bioura sing anybody
603
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.039
about Brown. If you like reading books, read some of
604
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.599
his books. If you like podcasts, he's got a great
605
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.400
podcast called John Brown today and just start with the
606
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.639
first episode. Why were you miseducated about John Brown? You
607
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:16.159
know it's a great, great resource.
608
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:17.960
I'm glad you shared that. When we come forward now
609
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:20.920
remaining moments with Dan Morrison and Jock Williams, will get
610
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.320
their take on John Brown's legacy that they're trying to
611
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:27.559
bring forward, of course in the work that they are
612
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.480
doing individually and collectively, So we'll get their take on
613
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:33.719
John Brown's legacy, and we'll talk finally here I'll let
614
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.880
Dan talk finally about the actual execution of John Brown
615
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:40.840
one hundred and sixty five years ago. This week, you're
616
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.000
listening to Tavis Smiley.
617
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.239
Help me to stress your moral and political imagination. This
618
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:54.760
is Tavis Smiley. Freedom is an endless meeting. So let's
619
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:56.320
get back to it with Tavis Smiley.
620
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.519
I've enjoyed this hour immensely talking about John Brown, the
621
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:04.039
white app abolitionist who did his thing, and for doing
622
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:06.199
his thing, he was executed one hundred and sixty five
623
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:08.519
years ago. This week only got four minutes left. You
624
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:11.119
my time's getting tied. Dan, tell me quickly about the
625
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:13.800
execution of John Brown one hundred and sixty five years ago.
626
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:18.719
This week ironically, he was hung by Robert E. Lee
627
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:22.639
went back when he was a colonel. You know, he
628
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.079
was hung for treason for against Virginia, even though he
629
00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:31.119
never lived in Virginia, and hung by people who would
630
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:37.360
eventually commit treason against the United States. You know, Roberty
631
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:40.199
Lee gets a pass for being a slaveholder and for
632
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.440
taking up arms against the United States. And for some reason,
633
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.119
John Brown is a bad guy for trying to free
634
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:47.000
enslave people.
635
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.519
It's wrong. Yeah, Like, you know, we don't.
636
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.400
Hold up John Brown as as a as a hero
637
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:57.800
for the black population. You know, he's an example of
638
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.840
someone in history who stood for equality. And you know
639
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:06.159
it's important because the country is still grappling deeply with racism.
640
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.719
And you know, too many white people think that racism
641
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.400
is a black people problem, and it's not. If there
642
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.960
wasn't any white supremacy, it'd be a whole hell of
643
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:17.119
a lot less of a problem.
644
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:19.599
You are right about that. You are right about that.
645
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:22.199
I was just thinking Robertie Lee got all that, got
646
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:24.440
away with all that, and got a bunch of statues.
647
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:29.000
I digress on that point. I give you, I give
648
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.679
you the final word, Jock Williams, I love the work
649
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:33.960
that you and Dan have done together on the John
650
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:38.599
Brown Project. Once again, share with us what you regard
651
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:40.000
as John Brown's legacy.
652
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:47.440
Well, I think, especially from the terms of equality and
653
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:52.719
social justice, it's important for the black community to understand
654
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:58.400
his role in that evolutionary process, and I think that
655
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.880
we need to always be more mindful of the allies
656
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:06.599
that we have in the struggle, both historically and presently.
657
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:12.079
And as Dan just mentioned, unfortunately racism is still, you know,
658
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:18.400
the big scourge on the country, and we need to
659
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:23.199
continue now even more so to put these narratives out
660
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.360
in the public mainstream so people can understand that even
661
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.760
though it may look dim and dark, there's a pathway
662
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.679
to victory. And who that comes through you may not
663
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:41.119
know who that might be, But as long as we
664
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:45.719
believe and understand that there's hope and that there's a
665
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.239
God who can hear our cries and hear are pleas,
666
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.559
then there's always a way. So I think John Brown
667
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:58.360
in many ways represents that and hopefully we can continue
668
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:02.199
to make ko strides going forward for our community.
669
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.239
You can learn more about the work that Jock Williams
670
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.760
and Dan Morrison are doing individually and collectively by going
671
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:12.400
to culture for that's the number four Culture for a Cause,
672
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:16.760
dot com culture, the number four a cause dot Com,
673
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.079
Culture for a Cause dot com or John Brown Project
674
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:25.519
dot com, John Brown Project dot com. Uh Dan and Jocksman.
675
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:28.440
A great hour, a great history lesson for both of you.
676
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.639
Thank you for your work and witness. Happy holidays to both.
677
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.360
Appreciate you coming on the program.
678
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:35.840
Thank you, Tavis, we appreciate you.
679
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:38.039
I love you both. Thank you for coming on. More
680
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:39.280
Tabash when we come forward