Comparative Civics: Beyond Western Civ

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- Hi everyone, welcome to this webinar,
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comparative Civics Beyond
Western Civilization.
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My name is Peter Levine,
and I am a professor
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and associate dean at Tufts
University at Art Tisch
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College of Civic Life.
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And I'm your moderator today,
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and this is one of a
series of webinars put on
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by the Alliance for Civics
in the academy or a CA.
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We had an inaugural
webinar, which is more, more
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or less an introduction to the Alliance.
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And then after that we
have a series of webinars
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that are substantive like this one.
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And so we'll, we'll share
information about the whole series
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so you can join the a CA.
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The Alliance specifics
in Academy was founded
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by a small group that
our friend Josh Ober,
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Josiah Ober from Stanford,
convened in April, 2024.
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And at that group, at
that meeting, we agreed,
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the whole group agreed on
some shared principles,
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which are on the Alliance website.
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And by January, 2025,
we were an association
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and open to membership.
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And so anybody watching
can look at the principles
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to make sure you agree and, and can join.
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It's a, it's really meant for people
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who teach civics in the academy.
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In other words, people who are part
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of civic education and higher education.
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But it's certainly open to you
if you would like to join in
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that context.
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And one of a bunch
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of different things we
do is offer webinars.
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So this one is entitled
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Comparative Civics Beyond Western Civ.
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I will say it's the way it's gelled,
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it's really focused on China.
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And, and maybe that wasn't in
our mind when we had the title
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originally, but I think it's a,
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and so I should acknowledge
that there's a lot of the world
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beyond China and what we call
the West, which, which is
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something we can discuss what,
what we should call the west.
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Anyway, there's much, there's
many other consonants,
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but I, I actually think
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that the focus on China
is gonna be very good idea
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because it is a focus.
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And so we should have one,
be able to have one kind
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of organized conversation today
with a number of colleagues
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who really know about China,
which doesn't include me,
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but I'm delighted to be the moderator.
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So I'm, I'm gonna begin
by just introducing our,
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our panelists.
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By the way, the slide, if you
happen to see it was wrong,
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wrong titles, wrong even wrong
institutional affiliation.
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So ignore those. But I'll tell you
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who we actually have here.
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So Shadi BCH is Helen
Stein, professor of classics
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and a very experienced
and famous translator,
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and was recently the director
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of the Institute on the Formation
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of Knowledge at the
University of Chicago, both,
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both roles at the University
of Chicago some other day.
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I wanna learn a lot
more about the Institute
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on the formation of Knowledge.
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Her most recent book, Plato goes to China,
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the Greek Classics and
Chinese nationalism,
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was Princeton University Press 2023.
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That's the hook for this
conversation. Obviously.
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She also has two books in progress,
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10 Tales from the Graveyard of Science,
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how Ancient Theory Shaped the Modern World
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with Scott Montgomery and
Mutuality, the Meeting
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of Humanities and Science.
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Fascinating Topics.
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Don Chang is Assistant
Professor of Chinese Studies
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in the Department of
Languages and Cultures at
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Fordham University in New York.
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He's his research
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and teaching interest include
comparative political theory,
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the history of Chinese and
Asian political thought,
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intercultural dialogue
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and contemporary normative
political theory.
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And he has a book Why China
Needs Democracy. Incredible.
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The important title coming out with Prince
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and University Press
soon it's in it's press.
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Simon Si is an assistant
professor of public policy
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and global affairs program
at the NY Young Technical
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Technological University in Singapore.
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He's a political theorist
and intellectual historian.
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He's the lead PI of a research
project entitled 1980,
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the Global Electoral
Moment, China and Beyond.
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And he's working on a book manuscript
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that investigates the
use and abuse of memories
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of the Chinese cultural
revolution in intellectual,
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theoretical, and policy
debates in post Mount China.
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And he was a postdoctoral
fellow at the Stanford Civics
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Initiative at Stanford
University, which is related
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to the A CA in many ways.
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We also are gonna be
joined by Jesse Wong, who,
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whose video's not on yet, but that's fine.
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Oh, here she is. She can
join us whenever she wants.
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She's a incredibly impressive
undergrad in University
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of Chicago, majoring in anthropology
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and public policy doing significant
research in rural China.
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And the idea with Jesse
was to basically ask you
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to comment a little bit later
in the conversation once
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you've heard these
people talk about things
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that are relevant to your experience.
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So I'll, I'll, I'll call on
you. Thanks for joining us.
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So, and we'll, the way this
will work is we do have some
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questions for the panel,
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but I'm gonna make sure that
we'll open it up to questions.
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We have something like
36 people in in live,
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live attendees, and more
people will join later,
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but we'll give them an opportunity
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to ask questions and comment as well.
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So I guess I wanted to start a
little bit autobiographically
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with how studying in either foreign
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countries and or the United
States has shaped your
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experience thinking about civics
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and thinking perhaps in significantly
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about civics in the us.
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In other words, the
topic is civics in the US
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but you've had the background
experiences elsewhere.
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So maybe Dian, could we start with you?
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How did you, how did you experience sort
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of civic education in your own formation
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and what does, how does that
make you think about civic
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education in the us?
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- Sure, thank you.
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So I was actually also
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a postdoctoral associate
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in the civics in initiative
program at Stanford.
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So I actually kind of, I, I
was there from 2020 to 2022.
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And so the first time I saw the job
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announcement from SAI, I
was like, okay, so what,
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this is the job about the
moral foundations and moral
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and political foundations
of democratic society.
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And I asked myself,
should I apply for this?
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Because I obviously don't work on kind
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of contemporary western
normative political theory.
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I work on comparative things, but
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because I was really desperate
for a job, so I applied
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and I was surprised that
kind of, I was admitted.
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So at that time I was like,
okay, so this is a great moment,
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but on the other hand, what's the purpose?
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So is the United States right now in need
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of an authoritarian
citizen to teach civics?
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So maybe this is the end of America.
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And so the reason I asked
me this question was
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because I definitely didn't have any kind
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of experience in civics
when I was in China,
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but I cannot say that China right now
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because I haven't been kind of,
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I haven't experienced
the educational system
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for more than 10 years.
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But when I was in China,
basically civics was about,
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Marxism was about kind of
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political ideology.
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This doesn't mean that the instructors
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of those classes, they
did not have any kind
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of independent thinking.
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To the contrary, when I was in college,
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I suppose Simon would have
similar kind of experience.
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Those Marxists, the instructors,
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they were actually yearly most critical.
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And they will teach us
not only certain kind
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of basic textbook principles of Marxism,
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they would also say
something very, very critical
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of the current regime
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and how to kind
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of perfect it maybe from a
critical theory perspective,
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not necessarily from a liberal
or democratic perspective.
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So I thought that my experience was
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in China, there is a tier
system is definitely not every
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university would have the
same freedom is not kind
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of the case that at every
university you would be able to
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say the same things
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or learn the same things within
the communist party system,
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within the education system.
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The idea is that,
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so if you are really at the top level
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of the elite class, then you
would be assigned more freedom
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to explore something.
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So I was really lucky that
kind of, I got some space
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of freedom to explore different ideas
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and to focus on political theory
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and to even hear Marxist scholars
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and instructors talking about kind
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of critical things from
various different perspectives.
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But I'm not so sure
whether this can be said
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to about other universities, maybe kind
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of the government would
have some tighter controls
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of other universities.
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And so later when I came to
the United States, I realized
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that, okay, so this is a place that
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from high school
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or from middle school, from primary school
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citizens were taught kind
of civics, not in the way
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of indoctrination,
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but kind of in a way of
cultivating critical thinking.
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So I thought that probably this is a place
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that I can contribute something important.
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And so right now I still
don't know whether I would
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characterize myself as
a instructor of civics.
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I would say that I'm a participant
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of liberal education rather
than civics education,
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but I would think that there
can be a lot of overlaps
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between civic education
and liberal education.
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So basically that's my
personal experience.
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- And you're, you're coming,
you're sort of at this point
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after fair amount of experience
in the US your, your view is
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that the US civic education
is non indoctrinating.
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- So I
- I that's, that's a question
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that Americans debate. Yeah,
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- Yeah.
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- So whether education
is indoctrinating or not,
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- To be honest, actually
kind of, I don't know.
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And I think America is
definitely more diverse
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and the political system is
more decentralized than China.
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So different states,
red states, blue states,
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they would have different
ideas about civic education,
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different levels of education.
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For example, middle
school, high school, and,
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and college definitely kind of,
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their manifestations are different.
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So in China, I would say
kind of is more unified.
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So the freedoms that given to
you at higher level education
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or maybe higher level
universities, these are kind
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of some implicit or tested freedom given
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to you rather than some
legally guaranteed freedom.
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So I, I would say kind of
these are the differences.
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- I also was thinking when you mentioned
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that the professors at a,
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at a distinguished institution
in China were often pushing
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against the assigned texts.
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That might be true at
Stanford or Fordham as well.
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Yes, Simon, how about, how
about you, your, your kind
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of trajectory and how you
come into this question
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of teaching civics, especially in the us
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- Thank you so much.
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I also did my undergrad in China.
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I was admitted to college as
a liberal arts student first,
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and then ended up majoring
in philosophy in particular
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political philosophy.
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And, and, and that's where
I, I I, I had a bunch
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of very good professors.
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That's what got me interested
in, in an academic career.
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And indeed it was, I found the
history of political thought,
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particularly inspiring
and stimulating for me.
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But at that moment,
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those were mostly
intellectual inspirations.
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I was, I got hooked
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because I, I like the
philosophical challenge.
254
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I like interpreting texts.
255
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I like working with,
you know, smart people
256
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and smart minds in the
history of thoughts.
257
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But then I moved to United States in 2015,
258
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I believe I have, sorry, 2013.
259
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I finished college, I enrolled in, in NYU
260
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as a master's student in politics.
261
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:08,050
And that's, I think the,
the, the environment.
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YU of most of us know that it's a
263
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university without the campus,
264
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and there are tons of stuff going on.
265
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And that's where I start seeing ideas
266
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translating into politics.
267
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When I was a student there,
268
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there were several different
kinds of movements going on,
269
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including, for example,
there was an adjunct movement
270
00:12:25,180 --> 00:12:27,610
defending their workplace
and labor rights.
271
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And my, many of my professors
were somewhat involved, some
272
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of them active, actively
participating in it, some
273
00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:36,100
of at least discussing it
274
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or encouraging students to discussing it.
275
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And as in such movement
276
00:12:40,630 --> 00:12:43,510
or in this kind of parents
that I, that I started seeing
277
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how the political
language that I I studied
278
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translated into politics
279
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and then where civic
skills broadly defined,
280
00:12:52,660 --> 00:12:55,360
including skills to have a
conversation with others,
281
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,940
intellectual or political
conversations with others,
282
00:12:57,940 --> 00:12:59,650
but also skills to, for example,
283
00:12:59,650 --> 00:13:02,650
way political decisions act responsibly
284
00:13:02,650 --> 00:13:06,730
and to think about communities
and, sorry, communities
285
00:13:06,730 --> 00:13:07,780
and responsibilities
286
00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:11,320
and membership in, in these
kind of contested ways.
287
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,800
Right? And so I guess starting
from that moment I started,
288
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I, I started recognizing that
the things that I learned
289
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,310
and the things I have
been grappling with can
290
00:13:21,310 --> 00:13:25,060
and should be considered
291
00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:28,600
as political by their own very nature.
292
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,400
And that's, that's, I think
293
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,700
that's when I started
cultivating this practice that
294
00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:37,390
whenever I read a new text, I
will be thinking about how to,
295
00:13:37,390 --> 00:13:41,680
how to make it relevant to
yes, students, students,
296
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:43,990
but students as potential
297
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:46,630
or already political actors and citizens.
298
00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:50,260
And that's also what I
think eventually got me
299
00:13:50,260 --> 00:13:51,820
to towards civic teaching
300
00:13:51,820 --> 00:13:54,280
and cyber civics initiative. Yeah.
301
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:55,450
- Yeah. So that's fascinating.
302
00:13:55,450 --> 00:13:59,080
So is it fair to say that your
experience in a, in a lively
303
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,680
and relatively free political
context actually brought the
304
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,110
texts alive for you in a way that
305
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:06,730
- Absolutely, they had
- Already been good at reading them
306
00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:08,290
and interested in them, but they, they,
307
00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:09,730
they, they became alive.
308
00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:10,810
So that's, that's
something yeah, absolutely.
309
00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:12,490
Something there about what
might bring texts alive
310
00:14:12,490 --> 00:14:14,140
for other students as well.
311
00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:18,340
So shady, you, and we'll
come back to both of you,
312
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:20,110
and there are questions,
a lot of questions
313
00:14:20,110 --> 00:14:22,000
that are more substantive, but Shadi,
314
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,190
you actually did study
in some other countries,
315
00:14:24,190 --> 00:14:26,950
but I'm not sure that's, that's
the path you wanna describe.
316
00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:29,920
Your path may be more intellectual
317
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,460
or yeah, inside books as you,
318
00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:34,870
as you've navigated the, the world.
319
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:37,120
But how have you come to
this conversation about civic
320
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:38,410
education in, in the us
321
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:41,020
- Thanks, Peter.
322
00:14:41,020 --> 00:14:43,960
So yes, I, I grew up not in the US
323
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,740
but in many different
countries in Asia and Europe.
324
00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:52,700
And I think as a result,
deeply interested in,
325
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,460
in the frameworks with
which we're thinking,
326
00:14:55,460 --> 00:15:00,460
because we come to the question
of what a civic education is
327
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:01,910
so differently depending on
328
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:05,330
what our background is in, in the west.
329
00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:09,170
And you know, through its
heritage from the Italian
330
00:15:09,170 --> 00:15:12,110
republics and through the
Italian republics back
331
00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:15,440
to Greco-Roman antiquity,
there's been a tradition of,
332
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,090
of civic education and,
333
00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:20,960
and civic training
334
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,370
that has focused on things
like responsibility,
335
00:15:25,370 --> 00:15:26,870
participation in juries
336
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:29,540
and deliberation, the ability
337
00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:32,180
to engage in dialogue with others.
338
00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:35,750
The a a certain awareness of the nature
339
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:37,850
of political rhetoric and
the shapes it can take
340
00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:40,490
and how to push back against it.
341
00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:44,780
And a tradition that's
always told to be skeptical
342
00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:46,280
of power and demagoguery.
343
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,110
Again, those are the, the athenia,
344
00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:50,510
the Athenian genetic
background in American
345
00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:51,590
civics education.
346
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:57,380
But in other countries, what civics is,
347
00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:58,850
is not merely political.
348
00:15:58,850 --> 00:16:02,420
It seems to me to also have
more to do with the self
349
00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:04,820
and with ethical self-regulation.
350
00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:07,730
And of course, if you look
at the Chinese tradition,
351
00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:11,450
and I don't know mean the old
Confucian examination system
352
00:16:11,450 --> 00:16:15,500
before the fall of the TIC system,
353
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:19,610
but I mean, even today
embedded in, you know,
354
00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:21,110
Marxist Leninist teaching
355
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:23,210
and so forth, there's still this sense
356
00:16:23,210 --> 00:16:26,000
that what's really
important in the citizen,
357
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,210
which itself is a, a
temporal category in China,
358
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:33,230
it's not a 2,500 year old
category as with the West
359
00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:34,790
or Greece.
360
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:38,810
What's important for the
citizen is self-regulation,
361
00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:40,280
ethical awareness,
362
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,640
and a sense of one's role in society,
363
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,010
which is also shaped by an understanding
364
00:16:46,010 --> 00:16:47,960
of one's role in the family
365
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,070
and a view of the state as
the family writ large, right?
366
00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:55,880
So that, whether it's the emperor
367
00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,880
or the head of the CCP, there's a,
368
00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:03,050
a sense that this is family
369
00:17:03,050 --> 00:17:06,350
and that harmony rather than questioning
370
00:17:06,350 --> 00:17:10,910
and self-control, rather than
371
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:14,360
maybe dialogue, are the
most important things.
372
00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:16,580
And so given those very
different frameworks,
373
00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:20,300
I find myself very stuck about
374
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:23,660
what is civic education and
how should we be defining it?
375
00:17:23,660 --> 00:17:26,750
And yeah, those questions,
376
00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:28,340
- Let's, that's opens
up the question, some
377
00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:29,690
of the questions, the
central questions here.
378
00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:32,450
So I'd love to hear Ian and Simon and
379
00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:34,070
after a little while, Jesse,
also on these questions.
380
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:37,520
But yeah, I mean, I I'll
just say obviously the, the,
381
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:38,840
the relationship between the public
382
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,310
and the private between ethics
383
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:43,040
and politics, these are
contested questions in
384
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,540
every tradition that I know.
385
00:17:44,540 --> 00:17:47,510
And so while there's a certain
genetic thread from a certain
386
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:49,680
Athenian democracy down to
the present, also plenty
387
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,560
of resources for thinking about
things like self-regulation
388
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,350
or the private, private sec sphere
389
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:57,810
or the inner life in, in
what we call the west.
390
00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:00,990
But so I'm, so you characterize
it in the, as a contrast,
391
00:18:00,990 --> 00:18:03,870
but I'm just curious if that
contrast works for everybody
392
00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:05,070
or anyway.
393
00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:09,240
Well, so I suppose to be a
little sharp to two questions,
394
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,280
does Shadys contrast work for everybody?
395
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,820
And also is this a useful way, is
396
00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:16,650
that comparative approach a useful way
397
00:18:16,650 --> 00:18:18,720
to think about civic life?
398
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,050
Like how should we live
as people on this call?
399
00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:24,720
Is it useful to think about
that by thinking about the two,
400
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,790
two traditions in juxtaposition?
401
00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:29,520
So I don't know, Dohan,
do you have thoughts?
402
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:30,520
I see you nodding.
403
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,040
- I think I basically agree
with Chad's characterization.
404
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,720
So because I don't have any
experience in, in American
405
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,690
civics, I, I didn't
grow up in this country,
406
00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:44,880
but I can say for sure
that in China, kind of,
407
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,560
there is a very strong tradition
408
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,190
of emphasizing self
cultivation, self-regulation.
409
00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:54,090
So I don't think kind of in China
410
00:18:54,090 --> 00:18:55,650
or maybe other Asian traditions,
411
00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:57,210
there would be a very sharp distinction
412
00:18:57,210 --> 00:18:59,580
between the political and the moral.
413
00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:00,960
So moral education
414
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,110
and political education,
they are intertwined.
415
00:19:04,110 --> 00:19:09,060
So the question is, the question is kind
416
00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:13,320
of to what extent a super
submissive political environment
417
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,945
would truly cultivate freedom,
sorry, not freedom, but,
418
00:19:16,945 --> 00:19:20,070
but morality, because things kind of,
419
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:21,720
the Aristotelian tradition, we know
420
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,160
that actually the cultivation
421
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,950
of morality requires certain degree
422
00:19:25,950 --> 00:19:28,590
and maybe a very substantive
degree of freedom so
423
00:19:28,590 --> 00:19:31,860
that people can reflect
upon those moral principles.
424
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:35,610
And so that when you become
a moral person, actually
425
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:38,430
you would reflect upon that freely
426
00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:39,900
and you would even have the freedom
427
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:41,550
to try different principles.
428
00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:45,330
And ultimately you may reach
the conclusion that, okay,
429
00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:49,050
so I submit to those more
principles out of my free view,
430
00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:53,640
not out of kind of some external
imposition or suppression.
431
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,040
So I think
432
00:19:56,910 --> 00:20:00,540
what Shadi described about
the contrast between the,
433
00:20:00,540 --> 00:20:03,420
the west, if we use this very generic term
434
00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:05,940
and the east would hold,
435
00:20:06,930 --> 00:20:10,680
and what I would say more
is actually kind of to
436
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,710
what extent self cultivation
would require freedom.
437
00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:17,430
And that would a little bit
complicate the relation, the,
438
00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:19,860
the, the contrast between
the east and west.
439
00:20:19,860 --> 00:20:22,410
So probably kind of in eastern civics,
440
00:20:22,410 --> 00:20:25,620
if it is a well-regulated Asian society
441
00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:30,150
with a Confucian legacy,
probably kind of the assumption
442
00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:32,225
of freedom or maybe kind
of the encouragement
443
00:20:32,225 --> 00:20:35,580
of freedom would still
be extremely important.
444
00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:38,190
- Thank you. Simon, where are you on this?
445
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:42,750
- I have, I have some mixed feelings
446
00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:44,310
about, about this topic.
447
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:47,680
I will start with the idea
that the, the, the sense
448
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,580
that yes, when I, I mean
the first thing that I have
449
00:20:51,580 --> 00:20:53,980
to note is that it's hard to like
450
00:20:53,980 --> 00:20:56,050
what we call civic education today,
451
00:20:56,050 --> 00:20:58,210
the counterpart in China has, like,
452
00:20:58,210 --> 00:21:00,370
they are thrown different
things that you might count
453
00:21:00,370 --> 00:21:02,110
as other Chinese counterpart
454
00:21:02,110 --> 00:21:04,450
and they're not exactly the same.
455
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:06,880
But my experience back then was that yeah,
456
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,900
indeed private public definit, sorry,
457
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:13,630
distinction was not heavily discussed,
458
00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:15,400
at least not in my experience.
459
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,900
I could be wrong a little
bit about what we, and, and,
460
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:22,270
and yes, it, it's also true that moral
461
00:21:22,270 --> 00:21:24,790
and political leadership or
moral on political cultivation,
462
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:28,060
all all more often the same thing
463
00:21:28,060 --> 00:21:31,870
or you know, intertwined
in Chinese example.
464
00:21:31,870 --> 00:21:34,600
But a little bit more about this topic
465
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,430
or a little bit more about this question
466
00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:40,120
that I'm reflecting on specifically
about what they both do,
467
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,540
I think in the like
different kinds of civic
468
00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:46,390
education both do, is that they serve
469
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:50,440
to provide a certain kind of
a set of political language
470
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,390
and vocabularies to the citizens,
whether you in a set in,
471
00:21:55,390 --> 00:21:57,880
in a certain way that
that would enable them
472
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,070
to discuss political fears and,
473
00:22:00,070 --> 00:22:02,500
and in the communicate communicable way.
474
00:22:03,490 --> 00:22:07,210
And I mean, I mean we might
eventually get into this
475
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,960
a little bit deeper, but
my sense is that a lot
476
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,630
of times we don't necessarily always agree
477
00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:16,600
with what's being taught
the contents, right?
478
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,810
Either you are in the United
States or somewhere else,
479
00:22:19,810 --> 00:22:23,590
or China Chen just mentioned
this, that a lot of, you know,
480
00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:27,640
Marxist professors in
China had some freedom
481
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,400
to discuss critical views
about Chinese history,
482
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,080
about ideology, et cetera, et cetera.
483
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,160
That's absolutely true.
484
00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:38,290
What I find particularly
intriguing is that even those kind
485
00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:41,500
of disagreements still enable
the shared political language.
486
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:44,110
In the Chinese case, there
will be a certain kind of,
487
00:22:44,110 --> 00:22:46,510
you know, Marxist under
understanding of history,
488
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:50,380
economic base determines superstructure
489
00:22:50,380 --> 00:22:53,050
or a certain kind of stages
understanding of history,
490
00:22:53,050 --> 00:22:57,430
those kind of vocabularies
abs the means and,
491
00:22:57,430 --> 00:23:00,580
and political language
would get reinforced,
492
00:23:00,580 --> 00:23:02,470
which I'm not saying is
necessarily a good thing
493
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:05,380
or bad thing, but I think
that's indeed something
494
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:08,620
that the civic education
provides for the citizens.
495
00:23:08,620 --> 00:23:09,945
- So actually let me build on that.
496
00:23:09,945 --> 00:23:12,130
So that's, that's a way of,
497
00:23:12,130 --> 00:23:13,390
of taking us into the next territory.
498
00:23:13,390 --> 00:23:15,160
So you could imagine
499
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,640
that American students in on
the whole are getting a certain
500
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,410
kind of common vocabulary too.
501
00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:23,710
And some of the components
of it included separation of
502
00:23:23,710 --> 00:23:25,960
between state and private sector
503
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,510
and a, you know, a
difference between politics
504
00:23:28,510 --> 00:23:30,100
and ethics and these kinds of questions.
505
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:35,100
So then reading serious
Chinese political thought
506
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,130
would actually complicate
some of those assumptions
507
00:23:39,130 --> 00:23:41,830
In some ways it, it might, you
somebody might even say it,
508
00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:44,230
it would undermine a shared language
509
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:45,470
which allows us to govern.
510
00:23:45,470 --> 00:23:48,110
'cause it, now we have
the other, other language.
511
00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:51,710
But I, I, I guess I wanna
hear about the pros and cons.
512
00:23:51,710 --> 00:23:56,600
I'm imagining mostly the
pros the advantages of in,
513
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,270
of asking American students
to do things like read,
514
00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:00,350
you know, they read the nalytics
515
00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:04,040
and translation, I mean, read
serious Chinese thought, what,
516
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,030
what would a chi, what would an
517
00:24:05,030 --> 00:24:06,290
American student get outta that?
518
00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:11,000
And are there any drawbacks
to, to that for any, any
519
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,230
of you shady maybe,
520
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:13,760
maybe you haven't heard
from you for a little bit.
521
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:17,870
- I was actually wondering,
Peter, if this is not an answer
522
00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:19,190
to your question, I apologize.
523
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:22,280
But whether this is a
question for Americans,
524
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,620
whether the two party system
525
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:27,470
and the kind of political
rhetoric we're seeing now makes
526
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:31,220
civic education more difficult
in the US than in China.
527
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:35,030
- Okay, well let that
let question hang there.
528
00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:36,890
Or either are the other two panelists
529
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:38,450
or, I mean, I, I don't
think I know the answer
530
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:39,500
to be primarily
531
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:41,630
because I don't know enough
about what's happening in China.
532
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:44,840
Certainly polarization makes
it more difficult in the US
533
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,200
more difficult even to even
literally to offer classes in,
534
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:49,640
in a case of, of school because it's, it's
535
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,620
so fraught. Indeed.
536
00:24:51,620 --> 00:24:54,950
- Yeah. So as to the
question of whether American
537
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:58,190
college students should be
reading Confucius, I think yes,
538
00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:00,990
but I think for them to
be reading Confucius in a,
539
00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:04,430
in political science classes
would be deeply confusing.
540
00:25:04,430 --> 00:25:07,310
Or even in civics classes
would be deeply confusing
541
00:25:07,310 --> 00:25:09,440
because they wouldn't have,
542
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,810
they wouldn't have confronted
the notion that ethics
543
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:15,020
and politics could be the
same in some cultures yet.
544
00:25:15,020 --> 00:25:17,540
And so it would be a,
a category confusion.
545
00:25:17,540 --> 00:25:19,220
So there would need to
be further background
546
00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:23,030
before we just threw the
analytics, I think at students.
547
00:25:23,030 --> 00:25:24,620
- Sure. But Mel, maybe,
but that would also
548
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:26,000
be a reason to do it.
549
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,320
In other words, it
wouldn't just be the text,
550
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,790
it would be the text plus an explanation,
551
00:25:28,790 --> 00:25:31,160
but the result might be beneficial.
552
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,770
- Fair enough.
- But I'm curious what, what, yeah,
553
00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:35,300
Don Shannon, do you
have thought about this?
554
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,720
- Yes. So my view,
555
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,250
and this is a very firm view,
556
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:43,280
that Confucianism is
definitely not outside
557
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,680
of the western tradition
because the Fanging fathers
558
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,150
actually read the Confucius and the
559
00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:51,410
before, the Fanging fathers,
560
00:25:51,410 --> 00:25:54,380
the European enlightenment
generation, and even
561
00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:57,830
before the 11th generation,
they all read Confucius.
562
00:25:57,830 --> 00:26:01,850
And one could say that our theories
563
00:26:01,850 --> 00:26:06,620
of the modern state actually
is partially built upon
564
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:08,540
certain Confucian principles.
565
00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:12,080
For example, even kind of those Catholic
566
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,010
and European ideas about
natural law actually also kind
567
00:26:16,010 --> 00:26:17,600
of was partially enlightened
568
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,260
by the Confucian ideas
about heaven, about kind
569
00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:23,780
of so-called heavily
principles, the mandate
570
00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:26,210
of heaven, those kind of things.
571
00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:30,860
So, and I have also seen some research
572
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:35,570
demonstrating that even kind
of during the movements of
573
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,980
African American civil
rights movements, so a lot
574
00:26:39,980 --> 00:26:43,710
of African Americans intellectual
leaders actually use the
575
00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:48,150
Confucius ideas to advocate
for the equality of opportunity
576
00:26:48,150 --> 00:26:50,970
and a certain degree of meritocracy.
577
00:26:50,970 --> 00:26:54,210
So I would say that
578
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:58,830
study Confucius would
contribute probably rather
579
00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:02,220
directly to American
understanding of themselves,
580
00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:04,410
and especially when meritocracy
581
00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:08,190
as a political concept has
been occupying the center stage
582
00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:12,840
of our political debate, learning
something about Confucius
583
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,810
and also the Confucian
tradition and also the political
584
00:27:15,810 --> 00:27:18,720
and historical experience of China
585
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,010
would be directly beneficial
586
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,450
and especially a higher
education when we talk about kind
587
00:27:24,450 --> 00:27:25,800
of credentialism.
588
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,980
So in China there has
been thousands of years
589
00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:30,030
practice of credential.
590
00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:33,390
So that's the reason why I feel
591
00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:37,980
that even though I don't think
I am in the field of civics,
592
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:41,280
I still think that kind of
teaching Chinese history
593
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,730
and ideas thoughts can contribute directly
594
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:46,590
to American students understanding
595
00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:48,480
of their kind of situations.
596
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,070
- Great. I wanna hear from Simon too,
597
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:52,680
but I kind of comment
from me is, I mean one,
598
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,840
and you didn't go this far Chen,
599
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,630
but one view would be
there is no such thing as,
600
00:27:57,630 --> 00:28:00,900
as west the West, it,
it's, it's way too complic.
601
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:03,660
There's way too much
diversity plurality within,
602
00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:05,460
within whatever we would
define as the West,
603
00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:07,230
and way too much interaction
going all the way
604
00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:09,360
back to, to ancient times.
605
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,450
So, so in some ways
it's a, it just doesn't,
606
00:28:12,450 --> 00:28:15,030
it's not an analytically clear category
607
00:28:15,030 --> 00:28:16,110
to talk about the west.
608
00:28:16,110 --> 00:28:17,520
So for example, there have been plenty of
609
00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:21,480
people living in Europe
who have thought that
610
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,420
ethics was incredibly closely
connected to politics or,
611
00:28:24,420 --> 00:28:27,420
or that the, that self have
have believed in self fashioning
612
00:28:27,420 --> 00:28:29,010
or whatever, whether they
got it from Confucius
613
00:28:29,010 --> 00:28:30,210
or came from different paths.
614
00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:32,760
So that, I mean that's a, I've just said
615
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,880
that in a strong way in
order to provoke reactions,
616
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,680
but I actually sort of
believe that that the,
617
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,410
that the west is a
misleading category, Simon.
618
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:42,660
So I think the question on
the table at the moment,
619
00:28:42,660 --> 00:28:45,510
and then we'll change check a little, is
620
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:47,190
what are the advantages
to an American student
621
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:48,750
of studying serious Chinese thought?
622
00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:53,640
- Excellent. And I might, if
I may, am I, I might divert,
623
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,460
divert a little bit from
Confucius to talk about, you know,
624
00:28:56,460 --> 00:28:58,860
other kinds of political
thought, political philosophy,
625
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,560
mostly because I don't direct always
626
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,820
directly teach Confucius.
627
00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:07,080
I teach more contemporary
subjects and themes.
628
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,880
And when I was at Stanford,
629
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,490
I taught a course roughly
three times the thing
630
00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:12,870
that's called political politics
631
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:15,690
and political theory in
contemporary China, which is
632
00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:18,750
by design half history
and half political theory.
633
00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:20,880
And it is especially designed in this way
634
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,590
because I think it is
particularly useful for students
635
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:28,140
to grapple with the political theoretical
636
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:30,390
of philosophical concepts
637
00:29:30,390 --> 00:29:33,030
because they were proposed
to be universal ideas
638
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:37,260
and they give students an
entry point to a context that,
639
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:38,880
that they are vastly unfamiliar with.
640
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,140
And they are, they're
about to get confused a lot
641
00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:42,790
of the times, to be honest.
642
00:29:42,790 --> 00:29:45,070
And that confusion I took
like the, the kind of
643
00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:49,330
confusing sentiments, I took
them to be good sentiments
644
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:51,340
for teaching actually, because it, it,
645
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:52,750
it opens up a certain things
646
00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:54,340
that you are vastly unfamiliar with.
647
00:29:55,450 --> 00:29:57,700
So for example, most students are familiar
648
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,550
with some versions of
the concepts of democracy
649
00:30:00,550 --> 00:30:01,985
as they grew up in the United States.
650
00:30:02,890 --> 00:30:05,290
And now I present them
speeches, documents,
651
00:30:05,290 --> 00:30:06,730
and academic writings or
652
00:30:06,730 --> 00:30:09,760
or archives to show that,
you know, in forties
653
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,830
and fifties, Chinese leaders,
654
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:14,710
Chinese pol political actors
were fully convinced that,
655
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:17,650
that they were building
some versions of democracy.
656
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:19,780
And they were also able
to convince some people,
657
00:30:19,780 --> 00:30:21,790
not all people, but some people,
658
00:30:21,790 --> 00:30:23,830
including many Chinese people
659
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:27,550
and some western observers who
were layer in China, alright?
660
00:30:27,550 --> 00:30:29,800
And they give students a puzzle.
661
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,575
For example, if Chinese
clams of democracy were,
662
00:30:32,575 --> 00:30:34,930
were worth dealing with
in a certain way, right?
663
00:30:34,930 --> 00:30:36,430
Doesn't mean we have to accept their,
664
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,860
but if they were worth dealing with
665
00:30:38,860 --> 00:30:42,520
and engaging with, what were
the base of making such claims,
666
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,970
what kind of democratic thought
democratic theory do they
667
00:30:45,970 --> 00:30:47,530
claim to be pursuing?
668
00:30:47,530 --> 00:30:49,630
And based on what conditions did,
669
00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:51,820
did they develop this specific
670
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:53,650
understanding of the democracy?
671
00:30:53,650 --> 00:30:56,260
And how was that different from let's say,
672
00:30:56,260 --> 00:30:59,860
American understandings of
democracy in the 18 hundreds,
673
00:30:59,860 --> 00:31:01,930
19 hundreds, 1950s or even now.
674
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:05,350
Right? And this, in this
sense, I think some versions
675
00:31:05,350 --> 00:31:07,540
of Chinese democratic thought
676
00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:10,240
not only give students
an entry point to grapple
677
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,350
with other context,
678
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:14,830
but this also in this process
that they obtain a chance
679
00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:18,940
to re reconceptualize
themselves their education
680
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,070
and their identity in, in a way
681
00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:23,110
that's more sophisticated. Yeah,
682
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:24,110
- You great.
683
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:28,000
Just a couple of comments about
684
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,440
how the conversations proceeding.
685
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,950
One is that people are putting
questions in the q and a box
686
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:35,470
and I'm, I'm reading them
and that's very welcome.
687
00:31:35,470 --> 00:31:37,690
As we, as we go forward, we'll
start using those questions.
688
00:31:37,690 --> 00:31:40,540
And also, Jesse, I would love
689
00:31:40,540 --> 00:31:42,340
to bring you into the conversation.
690
00:31:42,340 --> 00:31:43,600
Would, would you first of all like
691
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,000
to tell us just a bit about yourself and,
692
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,370
and your kind of root into
this, this webinar today,
693
00:31:48,370 --> 00:31:51,280
but also what, when you hear
this kind of conversation
694
00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:53,830
from your perspective, what do you,
695
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:55,150
what do you, what do you hear?
696
00:31:55,150 --> 00:31:56,320
I mean, what, what,
what do you think of it?
697
00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:58,540
- Sure, thanks Peter.
698
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,950
So I'm an undergraduate at
the University of Chicago,
699
00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:04,900
but I grew up in China.
700
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:08,230
My experience is, I would say atypical
701
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:10,840
for both just an American undergraduate
702
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,500
and also for like a Chinese student.
703
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,260
This was in part because
I have had contact
704
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:20,500
with several different
educational systems within the
705
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:21,880
Chinese context.
706
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,960
So I started in a very
traditional Chinese school.
707
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,790
I had civics classes as part
708
00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:31,000
of my elementary school curriculum.
709
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,750
Simon, and you guys will
probably recognize this,
710
00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:37,930
but I wore the, the green
ribbon that signified, you know,
711
00:32:37,930 --> 00:32:40,940
my standing as a student
712
00:32:40,940 --> 00:32:44,990
but also as a member of larger
Chinese political society.
713
00:32:44,990 --> 00:32:48,890
After that, I moved into
an American school in
714
00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:50,120
northern China.
715
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,960
So this was like a fully American kind
716
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,490
of experiment happening
in this like rural area
717
00:32:58,490 --> 00:33:02,090
in China, which was also
really interesting to see.
718
00:33:02,090 --> 00:33:03,800
And then finally I moved into
719
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,880
what would be called an
international education system.
720
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,420
So this is a school that was run
721
00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:15,800
by Chinese administrators,
borrowed heavily from the Chinese
722
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,750
educational curriculum,
723
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:21,770
but it was intended for it,
it intended for its students
724
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:23,990
to go abroad afterwards.
725
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:26,270
And so in many ways, I wonder if
726
00:33:26,270 --> 00:33:29,030
that experience too is an example of how
727
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:32,870
perhaps a more western conception
728
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:36,860
of civics may be operationalized
in a Chinese context.
729
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:38,810
That could be interesting to think about.
730
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,800
But yes, that is generally my background
731
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:46,550
and yeah, did you have
other parts of the question?
732
00:33:46,550 --> 00:33:48,500
- Well, well you answered
my question as I asked it,
733
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,870
but I I did wonder when you do, so you do,
734
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:52,610
among other things,
anthropological research
735
00:33:52,610 --> 00:33:53,840
in, in China, right?
736
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,900
As part of your, do you
think of that as a civic,
737
00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:59,510
as a civic, something
you're learning, learning
738
00:33:59,510 --> 00:34:03,560
to be a better participant in
public life, either in the US
739
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:04,700
or China by doing that?
740
00:34:06,530 --> 00:34:08,210
- Yeah, I think so.
741
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:10,400
We've spoken a lot about how the moral
742
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,940
and political are often
conflated in China.
743
00:34:13,940 --> 00:34:17,030
I wonder if it would be helpful
for the audience to kind
744
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:18,590
of gain a better understanding of
745
00:34:18,590 --> 00:34:22,130
how civics education works
within the Chinese educational
746
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:24,740
framework, which is that, you know,
747
00:34:24,740 --> 00:34:27,680
civics education is part of education.
748
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,620
I think in the US the two can be separate,
749
00:34:30,620 --> 00:34:34,340
but this is a required class
from when you start elementary
750
00:34:34,340 --> 00:34:36,380
school all the way up to college.
751
00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:39,830
So students are in classes
where they will be reading texts
752
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,990
and given exams where
there are case studies
753
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:44,810
and then they have to write
about the values that are
754
00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:47,120
most important in those
cases, how they would respond
755
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,920
to different situations.
756
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,010
And a lot of times these
are Chinese cultural values,
757
00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:56,570
things like humility and
self-sacrifice and hardworking,
758
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:59,630
but they are also very, very political.
759
00:35:01,070 --> 00:35:04,280
You are, you are trying to,
you know, do your best in order
760
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,650
to advance like the political agenda.
761
00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:10,850
You are hardworking within this
kind of political framework.
762
00:35:10,850 --> 00:35:13,100
And crucially, I,
763
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,590
so the civics has also worked into your
764
00:35:15,590 --> 00:35:16,970
advancement as a student.
765
00:35:16,970 --> 00:35:20,690
So the green ribbon thing I
was talking about earlier is
766
00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:25,610
like a mark of your accomplishment
in civics as a student
767
00:35:25,610 --> 00:35:28,850
that you get in first grade you
get this little green ribbon
768
00:35:28,850 --> 00:35:31,280
and then slowly you
update to a red ribbon.
769
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,410
And then there are more
groups that you can join
770
00:35:33,410 --> 00:35:35,870
as you progress in your
educational journey.
771
00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:39,120
And in within this system of progression,
772
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,670
you're standing in academics as a student
773
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:44,010
who gets good grades,
is very deeply connected
774
00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:47,250
to your standing as a, a person
775
00:35:47,250 --> 00:35:50,430
who is educated within this
Chinese system of civics
776
00:35:50,430 --> 00:35:53,160
who can communicate
clearly using the language
777
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,630
within these frameworks.
778
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:57,120
And so the two are very deeply connected
779
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,680
and my experience of coming
780
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,340
to the US has been more
about severing some
781
00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:03,690
of those moral values
782
00:36:03,690 --> 00:36:07,020
that I very much still retain
from my upbringing in China,
783
00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:10,290
from their political opera optimizational
784
00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:13,470
kind of Im impact.
785
00:36:13,470 --> 00:36:16,350
'cause clearly that isn't as relevant in,
786
00:36:16,350 --> 00:36:19,590
in my undergraduate experience in Chicago.
787
00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:21,420
- I'm imagining, I know some of the people
788
00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:22,950
who joined us on the as
789
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:24,090
in the audience, but I
don't know everybody.
790
00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:26,640
But I imagine that people are
having somewhat mixed feelings
791
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,150
about the, the the vivid
story you told is fantastic.
792
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:32,070
It's very, it's very enlightening,
793
00:36:32,070 --> 00:36:33,810
but I imagine people are
having different views about
794
00:36:33,810 --> 00:36:37,290
whether it's good or bad that
the students are thinking
795
00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:39,510
so much about personal character,
796
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:41,010
that it's being done in a structured way.
797
00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:43,770
The pedagogy also, the fact
that the state is involved in,
798
00:36:43,770 --> 00:36:45,750
in requiring studies
799
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:48,510
of the state is obviously
from a certain kind
800
00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:50,490
of classical liberal perspective worrying.
801
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:53,460
So I imagine people probably
think about it differently,
802
00:36:54,510 --> 00:36:58,290
- But Peter don't, don't
states always seek to imprint
803
00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:03,120
the, their version of
the ideal citizen upon
804
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,580
who are studying civic virtue,
no matter what state it is.
805
00:37:05,580 --> 00:37:08,670
We also, us also has its
version of the ideal citizen
806
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:10,920
that it imparts in civics, right?
807
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,550
- Sure. But probably
with a lot more caution
808
00:37:14,550 --> 00:37:17,310
and self-conscious and
worrying about it and,
809
00:37:17,310 --> 00:37:19,620
and backing off it and you know,
810
00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:22,260
and then actually literally
dropping the subject
811
00:37:23,250 --> 00:37:25,320
periodically and putting it
back in and that kind of thing.
812
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,760
I don't know, Jesse,
813
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,370
you were gonna say one
more thing on this? I think
814
00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:30,840
- I actually have a question related to
815
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:31,890
what Shadi just said,
816
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:37,170
which is the Chinese civics is
built into the Chinese system
817
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:40,020
because it serves a very clear purpose
818
00:37:40,020 --> 00:37:41,160
for the Chinese states.
819
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,210
You people are very well versed in these
820
00:37:45,210 --> 00:37:47,790
discourses related to
civics in the context
821
00:37:47,790 --> 00:37:49,050
that they would like it to be.
822
00:37:49,050 --> 00:37:51,360
And it encourages obedience
823
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,700
and respect for authority and rules.
824
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:58,440
Does the US have a similar
incentive to, to be doing,
825
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,140
to be encouraging civic education
826
00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:05,610
in its more liberal western
form, which is, you know,
827
00:38:05,610 --> 00:38:09,840
asking questions, political participation,
828
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,260
raising dissent, are those
things, do they have an incentive
829
00:38:13,260 --> 00:38:15,600
to pursue those things
in the education system?
830
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:17,880
- Right, right.
831
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,060
I I'm taking that as a little
bit of a rhetorical question
832
00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:22,590
because instead of one
that we just said, but,
833
00:38:22,590 --> 00:38:24,120
but it, it haunts, it haunts us
834
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,230
because the, it's, it's not
clear who really has a reason
835
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:30,180
to invest in the civic
education of young people.
836
00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:32,130
If that civic education is mostly about,
837
00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:36,190
about strengthening democracy,
we have a for anybody,
838
00:38:36,190 --> 00:38:38,020
for all of you, we have a, a series
839
00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:40,030
of questions from Richard McGrail,
840
00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:42,400
which I also have been
thinking about a lot myself,
841
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,650
which have to do with the role of reading
842
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,000
in civic education, particularly
reading hard hard texts.
843
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,660
I think because so all
of the, all of all four
844
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:55,420
of you actually, especially
the professors here,
845
00:38:55,420 --> 00:38:58,420
are professionally
interested in hard techs.
846
00:38:58,420 --> 00:39:03,280
That's what you do. And the
alliance civics in the academy
847
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,100
talks about grounding
civic education in texts.
848
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:07,600
That's one of the principles in the
849
00:39:08,740 --> 00:39:10,390
common statement of principles.
850
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:12,760
But techs are under a lot of assault.
851
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,320
There's AI summarizing them,
there's resistance to reading
852
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,850
and from different
directions there's evidence
853
00:39:18,850 --> 00:39:20,410
that reading is just simply declining.
854
00:39:21,490 --> 00:39:25,540
And Richard McGrail says
that the analytics was in the
855
00:39:25,540 --> 00:39:28,870
Stanford requirement
curriculum and got pulled out
856
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:30,340
because students found it in part
857
00:39:30,340 --> 00:39:31,780
because students found it difficult.
858
00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:35,080
So this is a question that
is partly about the relation
859
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,790
to China, but it's also
just more generally
860
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:38,290
about the humanities.
861
00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:41,530
What are you all finding
about teaching with texts
862
00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:43,780
and especially with hard
texts, especially with texts
863
00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:46,360
that come maybe from a
different cultural context,
864
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,340
but that's also true of, of Aristotle.
865
00:39:48,340 --> 00:39:49,720
It's not just true of Confucius.
866
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:52,330
- I'd be happy to say a few words.
867
00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:53,440
- Yeah, you're a good person for that.
868
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,750
'cause I think a lot of your
life has been about that.
869
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:58,570
- My life. Yes, indeed.
- Yeah, no,
870
00:39:58,570 --> 00:40:00,520
- One of the questions was
871
00:40:02,020 --> 00:40:04,330
whether Plato and Aristotle
872
00:40:04,330 --> 00:40:08,800
and other of the Greek political
theorists didn't themselves
873
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,450
combine ethics and politics at the
874
00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:11,680
start of the Western tradition.
875
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,150
And the answer is yes.
876
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:15,970
And this goes to the question about texts,
877
00:40:15,970 --> 00:40:19,780
because texts can be good to think with
878
00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:22,420
and they can also be appropriated.
879
00:40:22,420 --> 00:40:25,000
Well, they're always
appropriated and used.
880
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,110
And what they teach us to do is to take a,
881
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:35,170
a complicated set of facts in a book
882
00:40:35,170 --> 00:40:38,920
and create arguments about
them that lean upon those facts
883
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,150
and utilize them
884
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:44,800
to create a irrational
purposive statement.
885
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,970
So arguing about a text,
especially texts like Plato
886
00:40:48,970 --> 00:40:51,220
or Aristotle that have been,
887
00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:54,130
that are currently being
found good to think with
888
00:40:54,130 --> 00:40:56,980
by the Chinese and have also
been found good to think with
889
00:40:56,980 --> 00:41:00,730
by Westerners for millennia.
890
00:41:02,290 --> 00:41:06,580
Those talking about those
texts help us model logical
891
00:41:06,580 --> 00:41:09,430
disagreement because the words
892
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:12,280
of the text are there
in print in front of us.
893
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,500
And they're not debatable, they're not up
894
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,470
for grabs in the way that
somebody spouting facts
895
00:41:17,470 --> 00:41:19,060
that other people don't have access to.
896
00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:21,970
Might be they're not up
for grabs in the same way
897
00:41:21,970 --> 00:41:24,130
that personal experience is.
898
00:41:24,130 --> 00:41:27,040
They challenge you to create an argument
899
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,860
and support it using
something that's accessible
900
00:41:29,860 --> 00:41:32,770
and available to everybody
who has that text.
901
00:41:32,770 --> 00:41:34,820
And why close reading is so important
902
00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:39,140
because it models these habits of argument
903
00:41:39,140 --> 00:41:43,220
and reason that are so
important to civic education.
904
00:41:44,425 --> 00:41:46,190
And so the fact that the alliance
905
00:41:46,190 --> 00:41:49,160
for civics in the academy is
really stressing the reading
906
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,525
of texts as part of what
makes, helps to make a,
907
00:41:52,525 --> 00:41:55,760
a good citizen, I think is, is spot on.
908
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,740
And I, that's also an
endorsement of course
909
00:41:57,740 --> 00:42:01,190
for the humanities that
are currently under siege.
910
00:42:02,690 --> 00:42:04,550
- Love to hear from others on this.
911
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:07,130
And actually, you might also
just think of a different,
912
00:42:07,130 --> 00:42:08,885
an additional question as
you're, as you're answering,
913
00:42:08,885 --> 00:42:10,820
which is who, who's,
914
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:12,380
who's qualified to teach
these kinds of texts?
915
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:15,020
I mean, you know, I I
have very, very limited,
916
00:42:15,020 --> 00:42:16,280
I have no Chinese at all and very,
917
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,860
very limited really contextual
information should I be
918
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:20,540
teaching the analytics?
919
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,980
So, so, so one que so
the first question was
920
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,610
what do we get out of teaching civics
921
00:42:28,610 --> 00:42:29,990
through difficult texts?
922
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:33,290
But the second question
is who who's qualified
923
00:42:33,290 --> 00:42:34,820
and what do you need to have to know in
924
00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:35,870
order to teach these texts?
925
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:41,240
So I don't know, do you
have thoughts on these?
926
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:45,350
- Yes. So I would want to kind of
927
00:42:45,350 --> 00:42:47,660
raise a relatively provocative point.
928
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:52,010
So I would say that in the age
of AI probably is a good time
929
00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:55,430
to revive the very old fashioned
great book style liberal
930
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:56,450
arts education
931
00:42:56,450 --> 00:43:00,950
because, so right now
I think the popular way
932
00:43:00,950 --> 00:43:04,940
of organizing our syllabi
is we just a kind of peak
933
00:43:04,940 --> 00:43:08,480
and choose different readings
from different traditions.
934
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,270
And we have some texts from Confucius,
935
00:43:11,270 --> 00:43:14,480
we have some texts from Aristo,
we have some texts from hos
936
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,670
and some texts from John Stewart Mill.
937
00:43:16,670 --> 00:43:19,520
So students would be able to kind
938
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,460
of have a very general view
about different ideas about
939
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:25,340
political thought in history,
not only of the West,
940
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:27,050
but also of the East.
941
00:43:27,050 --> 00:43:30,860
But so right now with
AI, as we have discussed,
942
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,860
so students they say,
okay, we hate reading,
943
00:43:33,860 --> 00:43:36,830
or maybe we can just kind of
outsource our reading to ai.
944
00:43:36,830 --> 00:43:39,290
They can summarize for us.
945
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:41,930
So that reminds me that when
I was in China, actually
946
00:43:41,930 --> 00:43:44,630
that was definitely before AI time,
947
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:47,240
but most of the classes actually
948
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,400
teachers would not assign
readings the instructors,
949
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,850
they would just lecture
in front of 200 students
950
00:43:55,850 --> 00:43:59,900
and you're not required
to read any primary texts.
951
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:03,710
So what you need to do in order
952
00:44:03,710 --> 00:44:07,010
to pass the final exam is
actually to, you know, a lot
953
00:44:07,010 --> 00:44:10,010
of classes to memorize the PowerPoints
954
00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:11,960
provided by the, by the instructor.
955
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,940
So basically kind of,
956
00:44:13,940 --> 00:44:17,900
I didn't find those classes very helpful.
957
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:20,120
So what the few classes that I,
958
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,490
that I found extremely helpful was offered
959
00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:24,410
by philosophy department.
960
00:44:24,410 --> 00:44:28,100
So one class for the entire semester,
961
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:31,680
we just read Nicom Ethics and,
962
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,820
and Niches, genealogy of
Morals, a different class.
963
00:44:35,820 --> 00:44:40,260
We just read Plato's Republic
for an entire semester
964
00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:44,490
and a third class that
we read Hobbs, Leviathan
965
00:44:44,490 --> 00:44:46,500
and Russo's Second Discourse.
966
00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:50,100
So I suppose right now kind
of, it's a really good time
967
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:52,200
to revive those kind of practices so
968
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,730
that we can guide students
over an entire semester just
969
00:44:56,730 --> 00:45:01,200
to focus on one grade book
that is, that provides kind
970
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,200
of a funding role for
our democratic society.
971
00:45:06,330 --> 00:45:09,270
So why not we con we constantly complain
972
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:10,830
that students cannot read a book,
973
00:45:10,830 --> 00:45:12,420
a single book cover to cover.
974
00:45:12,420 --> 00:45:13,680
So why not we just,
975
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,780
the guy students read Democracy in America
976
00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:18,690
for an entire semester so that
they can know that kind of
977
00:45:18,690 --> 00:45:20,670
what is the best mind,
978
00:45:20,670 --> 00:45:22,950
what the best mind in history have said
979
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:24,600
about American democracy.
980
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,570
So this in this way actually I would say
981
00:45:27,570 --> 00:45:29,010
students would appreciate.
982
00:45:29,010 --> 00:45:32,760
So we just, the kind of, we
would revise our pedagogy
983
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,970
of asking students, expecting
students to do the reading
984
00:45:35,970 --> 00:45:37,290
before each meeting.
985
00:45:37,290 --> 00:45:40,020
We would actually kind
of give them some kind
986
00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:42,720
of encouragement so that
they can do some reading.
987
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:44,940
But the most kind of discussions
988
00:45:44,940 --> 00:45:48,240
and the text-based discussions
would happen in the classroom
989
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:51,840
that we put some important
texts on the slide
990
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,960
and ask the students to
have some reflections.
991
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,680
And this is exactly my approach
of teaching the analog,
992
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,150
analog is very hard to teach
993
00:46:00,150 --> 00:46:02,460
and form a a lot of American
students, they just don't,
994
00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:05,910
don't, don't believe
Confucianism is just confusing.
995
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,300
So, but kind
996
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:12,540
of guiding students read each passage line
997
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:15,780
by line is a very good way to ask
998
00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:17,760
to help students understand texts.
999
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,090
- And then there's a question
about whether understanding
1000
00:46:21,090 --> 00:46:24,060
texts is a good way to make you a better
1001
00:46:24,060 --> 00:46:26,010
citizen or a better person.
1002
00:46:26,010 --> 00:46:28,350
I think, I think there
prob it probably is,
1003
00:46:28,350 --> 00:46:30,150
but that requires a separate argument
1004
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:33,450
'cause it's not, it's
not immediately evident.
1005
00:46:33,450 --> 00:46:36,240
Simon, how about you? What
are you thinking about texts
1006
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:38,100
and importance? Yeah,
1007
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:39,100
- No, sorry.
1008
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:40,200
Thank you so much Peter. And if I may,
1009
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,900
I will lean towards your,
the, the the second question
1010
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:44,010
that you also raised Yeah.
1011
00:46:44,010 --> 00:46:45,570
Is qualified to teach what?
1012
00:46:45,570 --> 00:46:46,770
- Right. Thank you. Yeah.
1013
00:46:48,090 --> 00:46:51,120
- That may be intentionally provocative
1014
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,490
for a quick moment I'll
say no one is qualified
1015
00:46:53,490 --> 00:46:55,770
to teach anything, but let me explain.
1016
00:46:55,770 --> 00:46:57,210
- That's a good answer. Yep.
1017
00:46:57,210 --> 00:46:59,910
- Yeah, I mean, of course we have experts,
1018
00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:02,850
like we are all experts on
over certain things more
1019
00:47:02,850 --> 00:47:04,800
rather than others, right?
1020
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,300
We are professors what ch to do
1021
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:09,420
and what our research
focus on certain things.
1022
00:47:09,420 --> 00:47:10,620
However, to be an expert
1023
00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:13,590
of something is different
from the capacity
1024
00:47:13,590 --> 00:47:14,640
of teaching something actually,
1025
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,680
they might sometimes
be related in my mind,
1026
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,330
of course they are a lot of times related,
1027
00:47:18,330 --> 00:47:19,950
but they are not exactly the same.
1028
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:25,980
And I have seen in my myself, experts,
1029
00:47:26,850 --> 00:47:30,280
like people who I'm sure
are experts, something
1030
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,050
teaching in terrible ways.
1031
00:47:32,050 --> 00:47:33,640
I've seen those classrooms.
1032
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,040
I've, I believe we've all
seen those classrooms.
1033
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:42,520
But I do think that
the, the, the idea that,
1034
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,880
or having the sense that
no one is fully qualified
1035
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,060
to teach any material,
even if those are materials
1036
00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:51,760
that they are most comfortable with
1037
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,370
as a philosophical
principle, let's say, right?
1038
00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:57,280
Give us a certain kind of way
of thinking about, you know,
1039
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,010
whether I should teach the
this specific thing or not.
1040
00:48:00,010 --> 00:48:02,560
I do that, like I do this all the time.
1041
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,670
In fact, I think designing
is new syllabus is one
1042
00:48:06,670 --> 00:48:07,720
of the few moments
1043
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:11,560
that I would actually actively
push my myself to engage
1044
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,870
with materials that I've
not encountered before.
1045
00:48:15,130 --> 00:48:16,845
Especially you can do it in a,
1046
00:48:16,845 --> 00:48:20,110
in a reasonable dose every time, right?
1047
00:48:20,110 --> 00:48:21,310
Like this new semester,
1048
00:48:21,310 --> 00:48:23,710
you can add a new section on third things
1049
00:48:23,710 --> 00:48:26,410
and then you can explore
how, how you can, how
1050
00:48:26,410 --> 00:48:29,290
to incorporate that new section
in your existing syllabus.
1051
00:48:30,820 --> 00:48:34,840
And that I think, I mean like
even when I'm less familiar
1052
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,920
with certain materials, for
example, in the past, past
1053
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,280
the last course I taught
at Stanford, I tried
1054
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,430
to incorporate a lot of Arabic
political thought into a
1055
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:47,950
course about the, about the Cold War.
1056
00:48:47,950 --> 00:48:51,190
I found it useful. And I think
particularly the, the thing
1057
00:48:51,190 --> 00:48:54,520
that was particularly useful
was how I explained my,
1058
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,140
my struggles Yeah.
1059
00:48:56,140 --> 00:48:59,500
Of interpreting these
texts to my students and,
1060
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:02,020
and worked with them with their struggles.
1061
00:49:02,020 --> 00:49:03,970
And the, the unfamiliarity,
1062
00:49:03,970 --> 00:49:06,520
the confusions I think
were important moments.
1063
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,100
And not just the students' struggles,
1064
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:10,450
but also the teacher's struggles.
1065
00:49:10,450 --> 00:49:12,940
They can also be useful
in a civic classroom.
1066
00:49:12,940 --> 00:49:16,150
- Yeah. Thank you. And by the
way, Josh Ober in a comment
1067
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:19,120
that everybody can probably
read notes that both Josh
1068
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,400
and Simon had stellar student evaluations
1069
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,390
and Jo, which, so we need to record that.
1070
00:49:25,390 --> 00:49:29,830
And Josh asks whether we
can bring in this kind
1071
00:49:29,830 --> 00:49:31,930
of teaching into lower level courses
1072
00:49:31,930 --> 00:49:34,780
with less fully prepared professors
1073
00:49:34,780 --> 00:49:36,070
or less specialized professors.
1074
00:49:36,070 --> 00:49:37,390
And Shati wanted, did you want to answer
1075
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:39,820
that live looks like you did?
1076
00:49:39,820 --> 00:49:41,560
- No, I was actually reading the question
1077
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,270
and wondering about it.
1078
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:48,130
Oh, okay. I, I I don't know.
1079
00:49:48,130 --> 00:49:51,280
I mean, what matters is
how much time does one have
1080
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:52,900
to spend with a text?
1081
00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:58,900
What background is one coming
in with what is one hope
1082
00:49:58,900 --> 00:50:00,220
for students to take away?
1083
00:50:00,220 --> 00:50:01,990
It's, so it's a complicated question.
1084
00:50:03,460 --> 00:50:06,370
- Okay. That no problem.
That's, that's fine.
1085
00:50:06,370 --> 00:50:10,300
I think we should address a, a different
1086
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:11,380
topic before we close.
1087
00:50:11,380 --> 00:50:15,190
Also, I'll Oh, and, and,
and that's a good point.
1088
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:18,490
So before we get there, Don is saying,
1089
00:50:18,490 --> 00:50:20,380
let's ask Jesse that question.
1090
00:50:20,380 --> 00:50:21,580
I agree. That's a good point.
1091
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:25,180
So Jesse, the question is about
levels, about, about sort of
1092
00:50:25,180 --> 00:50:27,770
where, where in the, where in
the undergraduate curriculum.
1093
00:50:27,770 --> 00:50:30,890
So do you think it's
appropriate to study, you know,
1094
00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:34,100
the analytics or something like
that kind of early in every
1095
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:35,480
and more, perhaps more importantly
1096
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,490
that everybody should study it as opposed
1097
00:50:37,490 --> 00:50:39,050
to it being a specialized
thing for students
1098
00:50:39,050 --> 00:50:40,730
who are, you know,
1099
00:50:40,730 --> 00:50:41,730
- Sure.
1100
00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:46,940
Undergrad is only four years.
It's actually not that long.
1101
00:50:47,810 --> 00:50:51,350
And I think you, the reality
is you will be losing a lot
1102
00:50:51,350 --> 00:50:55,610
of students in time if it is
only taught in later years.
1103
00:50:55,610 --> 00:50:58,520
Now. There's definitely an
argument to be made about
1104
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,550
how much they can engage with those ideas,
1105
00:51:01,550 --> 00:51:03,980
maybe earlier on in their
educational journey.
1106
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:08,000
At least from my perspective,
1107
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,490
I don't think a first year is necessarily
1108
00:51:10,490 --> 00:51:14,600
that much worse off than a
fourth year college student.
1109
00:51:15,890 --> 00:51:19,670
But yes, so generally I, I do believe
1110
00:51:19,670 --> 00:51:24,410
that these texts should be
taught for me, maybe in part
1111
00:51:24,410 --> 00:51:26,420
because of what I see
1112
00:51:26,420 --> 00:51:30,110
as a really important like
civics education value,
1113
00:51:30,110 --> 00:51:32,450
but also education value generally
1114
00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:35,990
that perhaps isn't emphasized
enough, which is curiosity.
1115
00:51:36,830 --> 00:51:38,750
This is the greatest advantage for me
1116
00:51:38,750 --> 00:51:42,560
of reading a text instead of
asked to memorize PowerPoints
1117
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:44,690
through my education.
1118
00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:48,140
I want to become more curious
about the world around me,
1119
00:51:48,140 --> 00:51:51,170
not just learn more and
absorb more information.
1120
00:51:52,250 --> 00:51:56,360
And this to me does not seem limited to
1121
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,270
like a fourth year, third
year college context
1122
00:51:59,270 --> 00:52:02,240
or even higher education at all.
1123
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,770
I, I think if someone who
doesn't graduate from high school
1124
00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:10,760
or from middle school can walk
away from their educational
1125
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,840
system with a desire to continue
learning about the world
1126
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,290
around them in whatever
form that takes that is just
1127
00:52:18,290 --> 00:52:21,320
as valuable as learning what
it means to be a citizen
1128
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,480
or how to participate
1129
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,690
or, you know, knowledge of Confucianism.
1130
00:52:26,690 --> 00:52:31,690
- Thank you. Great. So we have
about seven minutes left and,
1131
00:52:31,705 --> 00:52:33,140
and the last two minutes I need
1132
00:52:33,140 --> 00:52:34,520
to make some announcements about how
1133
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,440
to join the other webinars.
1134
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,510
So I think, so in about
five minutes I'd like
1135
00:52:38,510 --> 00:52:40,190
to raise the que big
question, which is I've,
1136
00:52:40,190 --> 00:52:41,240
in my mind been lurking there,
1137
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:44,090
but we haven't really addressed
it directly, which is China,
1138
00:52:44,090 --> 00:52:46,040
people's republic of China
would generally be classified
1139
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,800
as authoritarian United
States would generally
1140
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,180
defined as demo democratic.
1141
00:52:50,180 --> 00:52:53,600
Although, for example, CIVICUS
just downgraded us this last
1142
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,150
week to less than fully democratic.
1143
00:52:56,150 --> 00:53:00,950
But so, so there's a serious
argument that we're backsliding
1144
00:53:00,950 --> 00:53:02,570
or not fully democratic.
1145
00:53:02,570 --> 00:53:05,180
So, but the question is,
what are the advantages of,
1146
00:53:06,110 --> 00:53:08,030
for an American student of studying
1147
00:53:10,460 --> 00:53:13,250
thought coming from a explicitly
authoritarian context or,
1148
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:15,560
or encountering thinkers such as, such
1149
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,290
as yourselves coming from
an authoritarian context.
1150
00:53:18,290 --> 00:53:21,530
Do you, I think, I think this
is mainly for Hun and Simon.
1151
00:53:21,530 --> 00:53:22,370
So maybe if you each want to
1152
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:23,480
take it and then we'll close out.
1153
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,340
- I would also love to contribute a
1154
00:53:26,340 --> 00:53:27,645
thought if I might on that.
1155
00:53:27,645 --> 00:53:29,700
- Yeah, why don't you
just, just I'll make you
1156
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:30,960
make it quick, but go for it.
1157
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:32,290
- Yeah. It'll be very quick. You bet.
1158
00:53:32,290 --> 00:53:36,570
So when I became interested
in China 20 years ago
1159
00:53:36,570 --> 00:53:38,910
and spent some time there,
it was a huge shock for me
1160
00:53:38,910 --> 00:53:42,270
to understand that there was
a philosophical tradition
1161
00:53:42,270 --> 00:53:46,470
that did not emphasize logical deduction
1162
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:50,160
as the premier principle of
what philosophy was as it has
1163
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:51,510
to this Play-Doh and Aristotle,
1164
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:52,890
well I'm exaggerating slightly,
1165
00:53:52,890 --> 00:53:54,930
but you know, the deduction, I think
1166
00:53:54,930 --> 00:53:56,550
therefore I am, et cetera.
1167
00:53:56,550 --> 00:54:01,050
But instead emphasize
qualities like then humaneness.
1168
00:54:01,050 --> 00:54:03,480
And I thought, oh my gosh,
philosophy doesn't have
1169
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,760
to be about deduction
1170
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,450
or ideal forms, it can be about humanness.
1171
00:54:09,450 --> 00:54:11,160
And that was a revelation for me.
1172
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,315
And it had nothing to do with
autocratic or not autocratic,
1173
00:54:14,315 --> 00:54:15,575
- Something else to learn.
1174
00:54:15,575 --> 00:54:17,565
Thank you, Simon.
1175
00:54:18,625 --> 00:54:22,110
- Yes. The quick way to
to to, to say this is
1176
00:54:22,110 --> 00:54:25,710
that I use Chinese philosophy
to teach self understandings.
1177
00:54:25,710 --> 00:54:28,710
I teach, I use philosophy
to reflect on, you know,
1178
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:30,210
not necessarily entire community,
1179
00:54:30,210 --> 00:54:32,880
but certain important secs
of the Chinese community,
1180
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,020
like citizens, community,
1181
00:54:34,020 --> 00:54:37,230
how they understand their
work role in the world,
1182
00:54:37,230 --> 00:54:40,410
their word role in society,
their understanding of
1183
00:54:40,410 --> 00:54:43,230
what the future China will be
or a future world would be.
1184
00:54:43,230 --> 00:54:44,310
And author like.
1185
00:54:44,310 --> 00:54:46,740
There is no denying that
China is authoritarian,
1186
00:54:46,740 --> 00:54:50,580
but we also probably would
recognize the authoritarianism
1187
00:54:50,580 --> 00:54:54,450
or an authoritarian country
as not something that
1188
00:54:54,450 --> 00:54:55,830
of course the Chinese government
1189
00:54:55,830 --> 00:54:58,890
or the Chinese citizens actively
embrace as their identity.
1190
00:54:58,890 --> 00:55:02,280
Sure. Just the party will still insist
1191
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:03,840
that we're doing democracy
1192
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,030
and the citizens might have
different understandings of
1193
00:55:06,030 --> 00:55:08,400
what they are actually
doing or committed to.
1194
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,650
And I use philosophy to
reflect on these things
1195
00:55:10,650 --> 00:55:12,090
and I think these are valuable things
1196
00:55:12,090 --> 00:55:13,800
for American citizens to learn.
1197
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,700
- Thank you. Perfect. This may
be the la your last comment
1198
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:19,140
actually, everybody's last comment.
1199
00:55:19,140 --> 00:55:20,370
- Definitely. Yeah. Yes.
1200
00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:22,050
So every time
1201
00:55:22,050 --> 00:55:24,180
that I begin my classes
on Chinese political side
1202
00:55:24,180 --> 00:55:27,090
or Chinese politics, I would
just give students a warning
1203
00:55:27,090 --> 00:55:29,400
that, so I know that
1204
00:55:30,270 --> 00:55:33,090
politics right now is highly
polarized in the United States,
1205
00:55:33,090 --> 00:55:35,460
and we are talking about China.
1206
00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:37,800
Originally I thought that,
okay, people may be kind
1207
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,090
of just curious about China
1208
00:55:39,090 --> 00:55:40,470
because they don't know too much.
1209
00:55:40,470 --> 00:55:43,680
So maybe kind of, I would
have a relatively easy time
1210
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,190
to just introduce a, a,
a, a country to students.
1211
00:55:47,190 --> 00:55:49,320
But it turns out that was not the case
1212
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:50,550
because students,
1213
00:55:50,550 --> 00:55:54,330
they would project their ideas
about American politics into
1214
00:55:54,330 --> 00:55:56,520
their conceptions of Chinese politics.
1215
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:57,750
That's everywhere.
1216
00:55:57,750 --> 00:56:00,780
And that's kind of every time
that I teach those classes.
1217
00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:05,400
So I would tell students that
the Confucius tells about kind
1218
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,000
of the golden rule is to
hold the mean that is kind of
1219
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,770
to be on the middle.
1220
00:56:10,770 --> 00:56:15,600
So we would avoid one extreme
that is to demonize China
1221
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,450
to say that, okay, China
is an authoritarian system.
1222
00:56:18,450 --> 00:56:21,390
Every Chinese citizen is
just a super submissive.
1223
00:56:21,390 --> 00:56:24,220
There is no agency, there is no thinking.
1224
00:56:24,220 --> 00:56:26,710
So the other extreme is to say that, okay,
1225
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:29,290
China right now is doing
so well, it's so stable,
1226
00:56:29,290 --> 00:56:30,610
so prosperous,
1227
00:56:30,610 --> 00:56:33,160
and is actually a shining example
1228
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:34,450
of the future of the world.
1229
00:56:34,450 --> 00:56:36,880
So both extremes can be harmful
1230
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,600
and those extremes can map
on the political polarized,
1231
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,080
the political spectrum
in the United States.
1232
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,090
So I think that
1233
00:56:46,090 --> 00:56:49,990
giving students some ideas
about the internal power, logic
1234
00:56:49,990 --> 00:56:54,070
of Chinese politics can be
beneficial for students.
1235
00:56:54,070 --> 00:56:56,740
For students who think China positively,
1236
00:56:56,740 --> 00:56:58,510
that would provide some caution.
1237
00:56:58,510 --> 00:57:01,720
Who for students who think
China very negatively,
1238
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:04,510
that can also give them some
ideas that the United States
1239
00:57:04,510 --> 00:57:07,300
and China are not radically different.
1240
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:10,870
So I remember Simon actually
raised a very important point
1241
00:57:10,870 --> 00:57:12,580
earlier in our discussion.
1242
00:57:12,580 --> 00:57:15,700
When you project, when we ask the students
1243
00:57:15,700 --> 00:57:19,120
to project themselves into
a concrete political system,
1244
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,260
actually they would have a
better idea about how to react
1245
00:57:23,260 --> 00:57:25,570
to those different political situations.
1246
00:57:25,570 --> 00:57:27,850
And after this kind of
process, I would say
1247
00:57:27,850 --> 00:57:30,790
that students would come up
with a better understanding
1248
00:57:30,790 --> 00:57:34,540
of politics and better understanding
of how to be a citizen,
1249
00:57:34,540 --> 00:57:35,560
not necessarily kind
1250
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,350
of a good citizen in
different political processes.
1251
00:57:38,350 --> 00:57:42,340
And it's, the opportunity
for it is actually kind
1252
00:57:42,340 --> 00:57:43,720
of the, the duty.
1253
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,460
And I would say the, the,
1254
00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:48,220
the instructors should
not teach students any
1255
00:57:48,220 --> 00:57:49,330
ideas about China.
1256
00:57:49,330 --> 00:57:52,330
I'm a Chinese citizen, I'm patriotic,
1257
00:57:52,330 --> 00:57:53,980
but not patriotic to the regime.
1258
00:57:53,980 --> 00:57:55,240
I'm patriotic in my culture.
1259
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,570
But I think as a good
teacher, I should just kind
1260
00:57:58,570 --> 00:58:02,980
of hold my personal ideas
and ask the students to judge
1261
00:58:02,980 --> 00:58:05,620
and whatever judgment they
will make, I would just say,
1262
00:58:05,620 --> 00:58:07,960
okay, that's acceptable
1263
00:58:08,890 --> 00:58:10,000
after kind of going
1264
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,820
through all those
different opinions about,
1265
00:58:12,820 --> 00:58:14,560
about Chinese politics.
1266
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,630
- Beautiful. Thank you.
That's a very nice way to end.
1267
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:18,520
So I'm gonna turn to
thank you all in a minute,
1268
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,790
but I wanna say for those
listening or either alive or
1269
00:58:21,790 --> 00:58:23,950
or later, 'cause this
will be archives, you can
1270
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:27,970
join the alliance
specifics in the academy.
1271
00:58:27,970 --> 00:58:30,580
You can also nominate colleagues
1272
00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:32,200
and so we'll, we'll have links.
1273
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,370
I think the,
1274
00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:35,590
a link will go up in a
minute or I can put it up.
1275
00:58:35,590 --> 00:58:38,170
But for in any case,
you can, you can search
1276
00:58:38,170 --> 00:58:39,730
for the alliance specifics in the academy
1277
00:58:39,730 --> 00:58:41,140
and see a registration link.
1278
00:58:41,140 --> 00:58:44,440
So people are welcome to
join and invited to join.
1279
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,040
People are welcome and
invited to submit resources,
1280
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:49,180
commentary, and research.
1281
00:58:49,180 --> 00:58:52,060
We have an ideas page
with a lot of resources
1282
00:58:52,060 --> 00:58:53,770
people are welcome to, to submit things
1283
00:58:53,770 --> 00:58:55,300
that they want others to read.
1284
00:58:55,300 --> 00:59:00,280
And the next webinar is January
14th at 9:00 AM Pacific,
1285
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,220
which is noon eastern,
it's called from Harvard
1286
00:59:03,220 --> 00:59:06,190
to Hometown u What colleges
can teach each other
1287
00:59:06,190 --> 00:59:07,270
about civics.
1288
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:10,450
And it's really focusing on the
big disparities in resources
1289
00:59:10,450 --> 00:59:12,880
and opportunities depending
on different kinds
1290
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:14,620
of colleges in the United States
1291
00:59:14,620 --> 00:59:16,900
and ways that we can
learn from each other.
1292
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:18,490
And that's, that continues a conversation
1293
00:59:18,490 --> 00:59:19,720
that's been happening within the alliance
1294
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,470
specifics in the academy.
1295
00:59:22,340 --> 00:59:24,470
Well, I think the best thing
to do is for people to,
1296
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:26,690
to search alliance specifics
in the academy, Stanford, and,
1297
00:59:26,690 --> 00:59:28,370
and those, those links are there.
1298
00:59:28,370 --> 00:59:29,930
And so the last thing I wanna do
1299
00:59:29,930 --> 00:59:31,280
as we close out on time is just
1300
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,040
to thank a really great panel.
1301
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:35,390
Thank you. I, I don't, as I said,
1302
00:59:35,390 --> 00:59:36,680
I really don't know anything about China,
1303
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:37,970
but I learned a lot from you
1304
00:59:37,970 --> 00:59:40,880
and also just appreciate
your thoughtfulness
1305
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,070
and collegiality and, and
commitment to this call.
1306
00:59:43,070 --> 00:59:44,810
And so thank you
1307
00:59:44,810 --> 00:59:49,490
and see everybody at subsequent
webinars in this series.
1308
00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:50,810
Bye for now.