WEBVTT
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Welcome to talking volleyball. I'm Steve
Hammond, D J Leroy, and I
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have weekly conversations with coaches and others
who are passionate about volleyball and interested in
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learning better ways to teach the sport. In this episode we explore reasons that
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coaches use punishment and consequences in their
coaching. We are joined by Heidi Anderson,
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John Kessel, David Cordis and Lauren
Anderson, who share their thoughts,
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experiences and learnings. Okay, so, if you're here with us today,
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we are experimenting like crazy, and
so lauren is with us through zoom and
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hid these with us through our normal
platform, and we've got a couple other
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folks invited and they may be having
problems to finding our main platform for whatever
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reason. Every time Lauren try to
get any froze. It was very nice
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shot of you, but normally it's
Hidi and me doing the freezing. Yeah,
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we're experience a little bit alarm.
So where in the world is Lauren
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Anderson? Sorry, I you guys
cut out just a little bit. Tell
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me what you just are you where? You said my name. Where am
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I? I'm at a best I
parking lot in Boise, Idaho. What
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could be better? Yeah, I
know my yeah, I'm back in Idaho
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after almost six months of travel.
I'm just here and I'm in Boisee for
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just a couple weeks and then I'm
headed up into the mountains of Central Idaho.
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But I my trailer, where my
trailers currently parked and where I'm living
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for these two weeks, there is
pretty much no sell signal or Wifi have
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any kind. So I had to
drive into town too. I was going
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to stop at a coffee shop and
they are closed. So I'm sitting in
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the parking lot and said it sounds
like a little bit of a country solution.
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Yeah, yeah, you know,
it's been my it's been my life
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for the last five and a half
months, so that's awesome. So Um
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Lauren's been on before. We know
a little bit about him. Hidi,
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tell us. Tell us a little
bit about you before we get into this
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punishment discussion. I'M UP IN NORTHERN
MINNESOTA. I'm a elementary physical education teacher.
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They worked with first through fourth graders. I coach high school volleyball.
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This is my eighteen or nineteen season. It work with club volleyball kind of
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all levels from beginners all the way
up through high school and starting to work
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with boys a little bit as we're
working on our boys program here. So
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that's that's the topic when you come. I mean there's a hundred topics that
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we could discuss with you, but
the topic, I think the coolest one
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to discuss, will be the differences
you find between newcomer boys and somewhat experienced
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girls that are going to be about
the same age. That'll be fun to
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dive into. Yeah, I've just
we've gotten to work. We've just had
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a few practices and my assistant coach
is really working on the boys effort here
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in Minnesota. We're going to get
a sanctioned and I haven't I'm not running
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their practices, but I'm helping in
any way I can and and I obviously
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have a lot of boys that come
through our school program or elementary that I
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have that come watch our teams and
the interest is there. It's just trying
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to continue to find coaches and supports
to build it, and that's cool.
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If three kids are my own that
I coach. So I have a thirty
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or twelve year old, almost thirteen, eleven year old and then my son
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is almost eight. So he's interested
in playing to and I coach both of
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the girls teams and I'm sure I'll
be working with you. I too.
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I know that green may has has
your kids on their recruiting list for for
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five years from now. So we'll
little goes. We we keep getting questions.
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Are My twelve team I was telling
you about is really talented, but
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they're really tells who just turned eleven
is like five seven or five six and
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a half, and so we have
a lot of parents whispering in the bleachers
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like are they really only sixth graders? And I said actually, we got
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a couple fifth graders on the team
too, but they just kind of a
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fun group that like they have a
high volleyball IQ and they are competitive,
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but they just kind of buy in. So you this have to shoom like
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we did the loser becomes a net
the other day in practice. You only
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have to show them one time and
then at the tournament, you know,
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you get two minutes of shared time. It's like we're going to do whosier
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becomes a net. So they love
it. That's awesome. Lauren, how
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are you getting your volleyball fix nowadays? What are you doing? I played
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for the first time and five months
two days ago, still not really walking
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straight after that. But yeah,
not a lot. I mean, I
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guess my big thing right now is
the current project I've decided to work on,
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more of an online thing. That
will fit into what I'm doing with
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my life a little bit give me
a chance to do something regarding volleyball even
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when I'm in the middle of nowhere, of central Ida, hope, for
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the next five and a half months. So yeah, yeah, that look
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like a NEAT project and I've already
submitted my survey, so I can't wait
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to see where that goes for you. I'LL BE NEAT. Yeah, we'll
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see. It's I'm excited about it. In my travels across the US over
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the last six months, I talked
to a lot of parents about the idea
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and all of them felt that was
a necessary resource for them, like,
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you know, being able to have
some sort of just a little bit of
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advice about what they can do to
help their kids, because that's what every
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parent, every every parent wants to
be able to help their kids because they
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love them and if they but a
lot of them don't know what to do.
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So yeah, yeah, that's that's
it's true. Hey, we could
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spend a whole there's another episode that
we could do is just how to work
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with parents and figuring out that,
how to figure out they aren't the enemy
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and how to use them as a
resource rather than a rather than a speed
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bump. You know, yeah,
I just you found going to get.
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A lot of coaches want to tell
here and say your job is to bring
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your kid to practice, drop them
off and let me do my job,
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and that's just so unrealistic that no
wonder a lot of coaches get frustrated because
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and parents get frustrated because that's just
unrealistic expectation. Parents see the kids more
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than the coaches do, hopefully,
and in their parents they love them,
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they want to help them and sure
we're not going to say like we don't
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want you to bulldoze the path,
we don't want you to be a helicopter
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parent, but here's, here's things
you can do that are very good for
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you and your kid and the relationship
between you and your coach. And I
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just think a lot of people,
a lot of coaches, myself included,
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for many years messed up by not
by not recognizing the value of incorporating the
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parent in the process. Yeah,
I agree with you there and maybe I'll
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maybe hide can speak just a little
bit more about that. But I mean
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there are a resource. There's a
lot there. Yeah, and I think
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I'm learning a lot. I have
both my daughter's team this year, so
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I'm learning a lot from the parent
perspective and just the kids, you know,
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like what they need support with.
And then I think it's been very
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helpful, like they will share like
I'm so nervous about playing this team and
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like hearing that from my own kid. And then what would I say to
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my own kid who's feeling nervous about
playing? But a lot of other parents
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don't have that same perspective. So
I think they're doing the best, you
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know, with what they have.
I think my first reaction was like you
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can't say that out loud in front
of your team, then they're going to
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be nervous. But then I said, I'm glad you shared that because if
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I didn't have a kid on the
team, maybe one of the players doesn't
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feel comfortable saying that, and then
we can kind of address it as a
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group. And we usually do a
preseason meeting for our club and we didn't
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do one of those this year and
I'm finding myself with a lot of new
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players and parents and I'm doing a
lot more reactive having to explain things that
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just they're drinking bubblers and caffeine and
they're coming in with McDonald's food. And
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I have had a lot of kids
that have played a lot of club and
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now I have all these new ones
and as like you, you know,
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maybe that's not the best way to
prepare for a tournament, but we didn't,
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you know, go over any of
that and so if you think back
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to the first time they play a
club tournament, there's a break and they
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think I'm going to run out and
get some food. And so, Lauren,
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I got to find your survey,
but I have a few ideas for
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you. Working with a lot of
new families this year, but it's been
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a good experience and I think they're
doing the best they can. Kids don't
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come with the manual. So well
that. Yeah, I agree. I'll
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hit you up the idea we've got
it. Love to hear your ideas as
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far as what you have, what
you've learned from what you're doing. I
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John, and now we have all
comes with people adding looks like we got
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David Cortez and we got some other
old, retired, gray haired guy who
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I don't even recognize. Are you
doing, John and David? Doing?
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Well, goodness good to see your
faces. So I sent heelt this note
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to everybody we had in volleyball,
coaches and trainers, just the coaches group
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that we're all a part of.
We three or four times this week we
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had the the topic of consequences,
which are really punishments, come up and
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and people asking are they necessary,
or how do we use them, or
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what's the way that you that you
you know, discipline your kids, and
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I know all of your know all
of your thoughts, but I know each
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of you has some opinions and beliefs
about about using punishment as a means to
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to train. Let's let's just start
with a definition. I mean, Heidi,
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maybe you're the best one to answer
this just because you you've studied this
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more than the rest of us.
What are we talking about when we mean
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a physical punishment, like what?
What is it? How is it that
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coaches, you know what is punishment? How does it manifest itself in the
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gym? That's funny. I was
googling what the definition is because I think
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people this morning. I think people
sometimes mix up reinforcements, consequences, punishment
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and I'm not sure that I know
the exact definition, but I think what
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we're looking for is that people want
to see a change. Heave your right.
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So they're either like trying to add
something like doing push ups or running
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a sprint, or or they're trying
to take something away, like playing time
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or, you know, their position
or a spot on team. So I
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think what we're looking for is now
we want to see engine behavior. Is
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that or to try to, you
know, keep something, you know,
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players not going after a ball.
We don't want to continue to see that
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behavior. So we are going to
have a pushment, like making them run
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or do push ups or dive Dow
Rolls or whatever the punishment is, because
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we want to see them do something
different. Big a ball, pass the
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ball. Is that? Yeah,
even David was the one that really solidified
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this for me. He wrote in
decent he wrote of post, I don't
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know, it's probably six or seven
years ago now, the difference between punishments
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and consequences. David, would what
was it? Do you remember that?
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I'm sure you remember writing it.
What was your basic premise? Basic premise
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was punished. For me, punishments
is something the coach adds on. That's
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not a natural consequence of the actions. You know, it's just, you
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know, kid shows up for light
for practice, the natural consequences. You
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missed part of practice and you're disrupting
us. You got to jump in now,
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you know. And if I make
you run three laps because your three
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is late, well that's the punishment. You know, the natural consequences.
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You're behind, you're disrupting your team
and stuff like that. You know,
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jump in here, get up,
caught up to speed as fast as you
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can with what we're doing and get
on with it. You know, they're
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you know, there doesn't have to
be a punishment for that. You know,
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as long as they start understanding the
consequence of what they did. You
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know, that's kind of our jobs. Causes. Teach them these are the
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consequences of your actions. You know, when you when you show up late,
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are you don't show up on time
and stuff, these are the consequences.
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This is the price everyone else is
paying for you being late and stuff
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be on ends up and now let's
get back into what we're doing. or
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I push more for trying to let
the consequences and we take effect. You
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know stuff you know everybody's going to
do. You punish somebody for missing a
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serves like, well, they just
lost a point. Isn't that enough punishment?
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Yeah, why is this such a
natural go to Abbes? Open that
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up for anybody. Why is it
the coaches? And we've all done it,
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I'm certain. I know I did
and I know I've heard David and
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Steve and everybody. And when we
started, maybe not hide because she knew
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better. But why is it that
we resort for that control? I think
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it just comes down to control.
We're in a situation that we don't have
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control and the only way that we
can and insert our control or one way,
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the easy way. I mean I
people get me flat for this all
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the time, but I relate it
to my dogs. I mean there's ways,
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there's different ways to train a dog, but the easiest way, in
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the way that most people train a
dog is through punishment. Goes the bathroom
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on the floor. You punish it. Now it's so afraid of the punishment
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it won't do the action anymore.
That's control it's about. It's a quick,
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easy way to control another living organism
and but what people don't understand is
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the long term effects that has.
You know, I think there's an element
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of what we have seen before.
It's you know, I've spent a lot
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of time on learning it, but
I've got a young coach. He's really
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good, really good. Effect is
coming back your way back to Colorado.
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Shortly I'm losing him to go back
home, but twenty one year old,
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just turned twenty one. Just awesome. But idea. The day he was
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getting frustrated with the guys and was
like there's got to be a consequence for
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this, and I'm just sitting there
going yes, but what happens when we
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do this? What? What effect
does it have on the entire team?
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You know, and and you know
this situation I'm in now with a school
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where we're just really we got a
lot of first your players, a lot
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of kids. I've got a kid, two kids, in a family that
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I don't really know exactly how the
dynamic works because they're no same last names.
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All, you know, the usual
kind of stuff where you're kind of
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like, I'm not sure who belongs
to who here, but they're in the
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same household. One of them is
constantly working doing chores and working the job
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and he's a practice twenty percent of
the time and the other one is a
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practice fifty sixty percent of the time
but is academically ineligible probably won't ever play
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this year. What do you do? Do you kick him out? Do
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you tell him no? It's like
we still may be the best part of
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their day. So you know,
punishment doesn't work there, for me at
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least idea. I'm the coach in
the situation. I think, like Lauren
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said, I think some coaches are
punishing for control. I think I have
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the same word that Steve did,
frustration. I see a lot just having
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a lack of skills of what to
do when they see their athletes airring or
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making a mistake or you didn't clean
the boss or, you know, not
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knowing how to deal with the situation. Something triggers you know, we missed
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a serve, we hit the BAMB
in that we aren't focused and it's not
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having a plan, it's not having
skills of how to teach it. Get
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frustrated and then they restart to punish
it. Certainly some of that can come
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from that's what my coach go with
it. I think when they do the
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punishment they see an improvement in their
effort, in their focus, in their
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working hard, and then think it
works. But I think it's something is
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triggering their frustrating. They're frustrated and
the easy solution is run or punishment or
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do it my way, instead of
looking at like what it is the coots
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do differently. How can I put
my drools together in a better order?
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How can I keep interest my team? They don't look at that themselves.
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They look at it as I have
to do something to somebody else. Yeah,
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I like Lawrence. Not Go ahead, I like I like Lawrence.
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You know, they're looking for control
and stuff, the word I wise you
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used. As you know, when
you start punishing, are you looking for
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growth or development your players, or
are you looking for obedience? Are they
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doing what you're telling them to do
and stuff in the way you're telling to
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do that? And, like Heidi
said, PUTTY SMITH GETS FAST results.
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You see quick results. Things change
really fast, but in the long term,
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meaning a week or two later or
years later, are they really learning
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what they need to learn? I
mean, are they becoming better volleyball players
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for the sake of becoming better volleyball
players, or are they getting better to
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skill to avoid being punished for it, for not doing it, and you
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know it's just the punished. I
I'm willing to give up that. Dad.
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Immediate, quick, easy seat double. I saw some results. It's
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great and stuff, and I would
rather go for the long term growth of
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developing good players who do the right
things because it's the right thing to do,
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not because they're afraid of what you're
going to do to them if they
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don't. I think it was,
I'm fairly certain it was John. That
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of course, be in the storyteller
that he is, made an analogy to
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classroom teachers and punishment. John.
Do you recall that or I giving you
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enough of a prompt there too?
Yeah, I think that everybody on here,
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we've got a pretty or why we
coach want to be well developed,
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and the same would go for,
I think, all of these teachers he's
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got in her schools and stuff.
You know she works with. Why do
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you coach? Why do you teach
in a good teacher in first grade after
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you miss the path or not making
you do push ups or any sort of
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physical honey? And I think one
of the things that a young coach like
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your twenty one coach t needs to
understand big picture wise, is is you're
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probably being fooled by regression in the
meat and you know that are coe I've
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shared with all of you and impact
greatly. Thirty five years ago is so
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four years ago. It's just that, because we see that that change in
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and succepter, they perform poorly and
something we think that it's working when in
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reality it's not. And you know, I blog a long time ago called
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coaching the human animal, because all
the amazing things that non human living organisms
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do come from reward, not from
punishment. And you see in those animals,
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including dogs, that the trust in
the bond, the why you coach,
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just you know why you have a
dog, why you teach. You
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and natively impacted by the threat of
some sort of punny shots. And you
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know, I I just want to
say to any of those coaches that make
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them do win sprints at time mouths
or losing them game and then they make
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them do all these physical, corporal
punny you're just getting fooled by randomness to
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if at all, the think that
this is changing their behavior. You coach
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to change behavior and you are apparently
prettishing to change behavior and and I know
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your so you're in simple yeah,
all, I'll second and third those comments.
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I think it's really you know,
comes down to that idea of what
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David said. Do we are we
more concerned with them obeying US then we
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are about them learning and through sense, actions speak louder than words. I
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would say a lot of coaches are
more concerned with people obeying them then learning,
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because that's the way the coaches act. They're happier when a player does
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what they're told. Then does then
letting them do whatever needs to be done
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in the process of learning. We're
going to make mistakes. We're going to
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and you know, I've been in
so many gyms in the last six months
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where they say we understand mistakes are
necessary, we have to you know,
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mistakes are part of the process training. Ugly, all these buzz words that
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are important, but then you watch
the way that these coaches interact with their
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players and it's very clear to me
and to the players that mistakes aren't really
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allowed and they are there is punishment
for it, and I don't think I
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don't think punishment, when we say
punishment, is not a great aspect of
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the learning process. I don't think
we should limit that to physical punishment.
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I think there are there's many other
ways that coaches punished players. They can
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actually be more destructive. You know, getting on a player and then in
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front of all of their peers for
a mistake that they made during practice can
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have devastating consequences for that player in
the moment and in the long run.
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I mean there's just so much evidence
now talking about the trauma that the brain
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can be i. can affect the
brain for such a long period of time.
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I think it's it's really important that
we as coaches recognize what role we
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play in that. So we got
a question and in the chat here from
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Steve. So it's talking about a
player's got a lack of effort. But
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let's the ball drop is doing coach
one on one, mimicking the drop ball
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with that player, considering considered a
punishment. Lauren, I think you just
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hit it. Sorry, I didn't
mean to last, it just came out.
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Yeah, if you want me to
answer that, I would say yes,
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it's considered a punishment and no,
it's not a providing a learning environment.
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Those I mean. So you basically
taken away every opportunity to learn for
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that player. And what you've done
instead is created a rehearsed environment in which
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there they are. Only thing they're
learning is how to obey what you're telling
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him to do. Yeah, I
think that's the wious thing. Warn is
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that you've taken him now out of
the environment where they needed to get that
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ball. Now it's one on one, so they know every ball is.
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There's where oftentimes the ball that drops
falls in because they weren't sure it was
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theirs. It's, it's. It
could be as simple as that. Whose
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Bowl was that? Oh, we're
counting on you and that. And John,
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you were going to say something that
too. It's the whole point in
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our forward the number one skill is
reading in and I would argue, you
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know, cody just qualified for the
finals. They won in the Bundesliga and
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so they're in the grand finals.
And I watch these mistakes being made by
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these highly paid professionals and thought every
single mistake I saw was not on purpose.
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It was done out of being in
the wrong place at the wrong time,
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where a slight misjudgment or as like
misread of the set or a setting
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fault, that that was not done
on purpose. And you know, I'm
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down on air with all these kids, seeing thousands of mistakes and it's like
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there isn't a single kid here that
is making a mistake on purpose. So
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why are you treating them as you
know, verbally or physically? And if
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they are, and why have you
stopped coaching? And I think it's because
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really great teachers do one thing and
to have a chemistry professor do a physical
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punishment, you know, you'd think
this guy's waxed where you got to get
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rid of this professor and he you
know, he doesn't know how to teach.
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And yet you bring it into the
gym and it's okay. And I
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am totally, you know, agree
with the concept of the consequences is that
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you hit it out and you and
lost that game and so now you're going
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to have to play a fourth set. That's plenty of consequence points for anybody
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that's playing with any heart and soul
on a on a team sport. And
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I just I can't I understand where
the culture came from and I understand that
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there's football coaches that may think,
you know, develops man and whatever,
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but the greatest teams, you know
that you're seeing now, you don't see
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coaches that are doing that form of
traditional punishment. Instead, they're catching their
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athletes being good and all those other
things that we all know and want to
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see happen more. And one thing
that fascinates me is that the culture where
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probably this whole idea started, I
would guess, is military, and even
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the military has moved away from this
model. They are no longer punishing their
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soldiers. You know, you get
somebody like the Navy seals or the Army
340
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Rangers or some of these incredibly talented
soldiers in their fields and you know they
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it is life and death for them, which is something that volleyball is not
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nor will ever be. And yet
what they are moving to now as models
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in which you don't see this severe
forms of punishment. Yes, they have
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very hard physical activities they have to
do because that's part of their job,
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but they're don't they're they're not being
punished in the classic way that they used
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to be. And it because the
military, the different branch of the military,
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have recognized that that stop that that
decreases motivation and decreases the rate of
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learning. And so if they're learning, if they're flyingness for the military,
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why or why are so many sports
coaches still holding onto it. That's just
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00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:09.039
what Fath that. It fascinates me, it depresses me, it frustrates me
351
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all the same time. I think, along with their reading pieces, making
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decisions and I think they're moving for
from a with this way, because you're
353
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following my command to meeting people who
are on the front lines, are in
354
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a battle, having to make divisions, and I think that's level, as
355
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are they progressive and as a competition
gets better. In playoffs, you know,
356
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games moving a little faster, decisions
have to be made and do start
357
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sees for those things break down.
Along with reading, it's also having to
358
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make a decision. And I and
I think this question in that the piece
359
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that I kind of wanted to talk
more about was when they're giving a lack
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of effort or they're having a lack
of focus. I think to me that
361
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maybe a different kind of mistake than
like a reading error or a decisionmaking error,
362
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because I do think you see,
you know, what about the player
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who's not giving any effort? What
about the player WHO's not focus? How
364
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do you deal with that part,
because they're deciding at last they should take
365
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:46.960
it forwards in is there a difference
than how you beat a kid who has
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the effort state as opposed to like
physical error. Well, I'll say this
367
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that the only time I would ever
think of having a consequence for a player
368
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based on my perceived my perception that
they were giving less effort, would be
369
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if I could one hundred percent measure
and know that they were giving less effort.
370
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I do not want to punish a
kid based on my bias and my
371
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incorrect perception of their effort level or
of their focus level. Maybe they're one
372
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.840
hundred percent focus to them, but
I'm perceiving it wrong and then I punish
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them. What does that do to
that kid? What does that say to
374
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that kid? No matter what I
do, I'm going to get punished.
375
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If that kid comes out and is, in their mind giving one hundred percent
376
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effort and I perceive it as less
effort than what I want. What what
377
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:49.880
message does that send to that kid
if I punish them that no matter what
378
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they do, they're going to get
punished. So why why try hard?
379
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I'm going to get punished anyway.
So unless I can find a way,
380
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:02.079
which I have not yet, to
one hundred percent measure and no factually whether
381
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someone is giving effort or focus,
I'm not going to punish a kid for
382
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those things either. Do any of
you feel like this? Has Been My
383
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belief since we quit doing this.
I don't know twenty five years ago would
384
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put the punishment thing, but do
many of you feel like it just allows
385
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the player to immediately get off the
hook, like the ball dropped. They
386
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:36.480
did my five pushups and now it's
over. It feels to me like it
387
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takes the focus off of the winning
and losing. You guys feel that way
388
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:47.679
or do you have any thoughts on
that? Well, I agree. I
389
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:53.719
think it's because when you when you
punish, you have to continually amp up
390
00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:58.559
the punishment sport to have any kind
of effect in the long term. And
391
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:04.480
so if a player else to do
five pushups for missing a dig the first
392
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.840
few times, the first week,
the first month, maybe they're really trying
393
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:14.440
to go for the dig because they
don't want to do the five pushups.
394
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:20.079
But over time those five pushups just
become norm. And you know what,
395
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I didn't go for the day.
Oh well, you know, before the
396
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.440
coach even says anything, the players
off on the sidelines doing their pushups,
397
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and that's when it to me.
It becomes it's no longer affecting change.
398
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:37.159
It's no longer somewhere in that kid's
body and their mind and they're being it's
399
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.599
no longer even a punishment, it's
just part of practice, and so it
400
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is getting them off the hook.
They don't. I mean I've seen kids
401
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:52.559
deliberately not do something on a court
so that they could be pulled out of
402
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:59.239
a game because they knew it was
coming. I've seen kids deliberately do things
403
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:05.000
they knew they were going to get
punished for because the punishment was actually more
404
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enjoyable to them than the thing they
were doing. You know, I don't.
405
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:13.119
I'm not having fun playing because my
coach continually yells at me and is
406
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.840
threatening me. So I'm going to
do something that I know is going to
407
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:19.239
make the coach pull me out of
the game so that I can sit on
408
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.199
the bench and I have to do
with this stress. So I do think
409
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.840
there is that factor and it beach. I don't think it's true of everyone,
410
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:35.639
but I definitely have seen it.
So what else can we do?
411
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.480
What else do we do? How
do we handle it? Well, I
412
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:49.039
had won this week where you kind
of have to be you know, tune
413
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.440
yourself into it. So for all
of us are different points on that spectrum.
414
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.719
I'm on the spectrum where I'll react
occasionally, and I reacted. I
415
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:02.039
had a I was introducing another defense
and my Libero decided to come over while
416
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.880
we were trying to introduce this and
we'd spent maybe fifteen minutes on it,
417
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:08.360
and said, I don't know,
I really don't think this is going to
418
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.440
work. We need this, isn't
you know, and just gave me all
419
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.599
this stuff and I I just looked
at him and said, okay, look
420
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:19.119
one, you're not the coach to
you've been doing this for fifteen minutes.
421
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.280
Go do it. And you know
that was very directive. And you know,
422
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.119
I caught myself a little later and
I took him aside and his to
423
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:29.400
look, oh, you, apology. That's not the way I should act
424
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:34.039
when I'm trying to explain that to
you. And, interestingly enough, kid
425
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.320
is pretty emotionally intelligent. He kind
of came back the next day and said,
426
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.960
I'm sorry, I reacted that way. I actually think it might work.
427
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.719
So we kind of negotiated our way
through that, but we were both
428
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:50.280
human in the process. The question
is, are you open to learning from
429
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.920
that and going okay, that didn't
really work the way I was intending it
430
00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:01.639
to work and maybe I need to
take a different approach. Well, I'm
431
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:07.039
going to say they're going to go
lords. Well, I'm just going to
432
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.079
say that, I think what we
answer your question? What do we do?
433
00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:17.440
So you know, we can't just
coaches who typically use punishment as part
434
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:24.400
of their training process. They just
they can't just stop punishment and then and
435
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:30.760
not having any to fill in that
with. I mean, they probably could
436
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:32.639
and it would be fine, but
the coach would feel like they are still
437
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:38.280
something they need to do. So
in you know in the rise Jim that
438
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.239
I'm no longer there, but I
know they continue to do this. Is
439
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:46.360
it's just cultivating a love of the
game. That's it. You know,
440
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:51.639
I can't remember which I can see
his face, I can't think of his
441
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.920
name, but there's a golf coach
and the you know, Kingdom who also
442
00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.000
does some mental strength and mention mental
performance work and stuff, and he has
443
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:04.960
a saying that really rocked my world
when I first heard it and I now
444
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:08.559
become a huge believer of it,
and that is that these things that we
445
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:15.760
see as a coach or as a
spectator, like discipline, like hard work,
446
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.760
motivation, all of those are just
love of the game seen from a
447
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:27.320
third person perspective. And so if
we want a kid to be more motivated,
448
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.519
if we want a kid to work
harder, we want a kid to
449
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:36.519
be more focused, help them love
the game. Cultivate a love of the
450
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:43.840
game. And if you have those
circumstances that are more one offs, where
451
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.519
people typically punish, where you know, kid doesn't go for a ball,
452
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:52.639
or kid misses their serve or makes
the wrong decision in a game, setter
453
00:40:52.800 --> 00:41:00.400
sets the worst hitter on game point, whatever it might be, have conversations
454
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:06.960
with them rather than punish them.
Have have conversations, ask him some really
455
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.239
great questions. You know, I
my Dad taught me when I was young
456
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.920
that saying of if you don't like
the answer, ask a different question.
457
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:20.119
Well, what the player is doing
out on the court is an answer to
458
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:24.039
the problems that the game is posing
them. So if we don't like the
459
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:29.880
answer that they're giving, ask a
different question or create a game that asks
460
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:35.760
a better question so that they can
then explore new answers rather than punish them.
461
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.840
I just I'm guilty of punishing kids
for a good portion of my coaching
462
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.599
career, but it never felt good, it never felt right. I did
463
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.360
it because it's what I thought we
were supposed to do as coaches. It
464
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:58.480
never felt right. And then when
certain unnamed white haired, White Shirt stripes
465
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:08.000
men gave me the permission to really
look into that idea and realize that it
466
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:13.159
didn't feel good because it wasn't right, it wasn't necessary and we could find
467
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:19.480
better ways. I mean, obviously
now I'm I don't you know. What
468
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.119
do we do different? We cultivate
a love of the game and we treat
469
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:27.320
each kid in our gym as an
individual and have conversations with them about where
470
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.440
they're at. And I think that's
it. That's it. And I gotta
471
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:40.079
say, Lauren, not only of
you become a much, much, much
472
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:47.440
stronger coach, but you're the group
here is doing a lot of really important
473
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:54.480
work of teaching what we learn to
others. And you know by that we
474
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.440
learn it even better. I mean
hid he's doing it all the time all
475
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:05.079
over her friggin state, as they
can. BJ's too, and and I
476
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:09.960
just I can't say enough that the
whole point is to give them a love
477
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.199
of the game, like your golf, I said, or whatever. I
478
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:22.719
mean if I did it once,
I did it a thousand times. After
479
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:29.239
tournament, kids in the car and
all I said was, I love to
480
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.719
watch you play, and I still
say that to cody even though he's a
481
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:43.519
and that whole foundation of love kind
of is why, Lauren, you're succeeding
482
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:51.239
in understanding, I think, well, how we want to moveivationally, interview
483
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:54.440
these kids, how we want to
either discovery of stuff that we know that
484
00:43:54.519 --> 00:44:00.840
they don't know yet. Yeah,
that isn't punishment, but that is a
485
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:06.559
dialog. Takes longer, and I
understand that this takes longer, but it's
486
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:13.559
worth it because then those athletes,
hopefully you're playing in the eighty and over
487
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:19.639
national championships in another, you know, sixty years because they have that love
488
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:35.880
of the game. Yeah, ive
it. You're seeing something. Before I
489
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.000
come into saying I talked to ask
a lot of coaches. You know the
490
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:44.119
two questions I asked that and I
want do you want to spend the limited
491
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.840
time you have with these kids punishing
them or helping them learn and grow and
492
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.199
become better athletes? You know,
you got decide which one do you want
493
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.239
to do, because I do think
they are mutual exclusive. You can't do
494
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.440
both. They don't happen to both. And the other thing I got from
495
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:07.320
you know, Julio the less going
in Colorado Springs several years ago. He
496
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.519
made the comment of you got to
know your team, not the team you
497
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.280
think you want them to be.
You got to know your team. Ask
498
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:17.599
these coaches. Do you know?
What is your goal for this team?
499
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.559
You know it's your goal. You
know there's there's a lot of people you
500
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:23.440
know in the club world that said, well, our goals to go to
501
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:29.159
national's and win a national championship.
Is like, realistically, what are your
502
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:34.280
chances of that happening? You know, you look southern California and every age
503
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.679
group there's a couple hundred teams and
two or three of them get to go
504
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.920
to national's and of them even less
have a chance of winning. What is
505
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:49.280
realistically your goal for that team?
If you're all here to win a national
506
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:53.440
championship, most of you are going
to fail. The majority of are going
507
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.639
to fail. So what is your
team? What is your goal for that
508
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.840
team that you can be successful at, that you can do for them.
509
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.360
And then one of those teach them
to love the game, teach them to
510
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.760
love play, teach them how to
be volleyball players, how to be athletes
511
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:12.119
as stuff. And you know,
if you land up, the lightning strikes
512
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.519
and you landed with that right mix
of genetic talent and those kids and everything,
513
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.320
and you can get to national as
you can winnership, fantastic, go
514
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.840
for that, but not you.
You know, ninety nine percent of the
515
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.920
coaches, the teams out there.
That's not a realistic expectation. It's not
516
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.679
a realistic goal. You got to, you know, find out what's what's
517
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.199
the goal for that team? What
is the best thing you can do for
518
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:37.840
that team? Teach those nine ten
girls to be the best teammates, the
519
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:43.679
best players they can win as many
games as they can what they're doing and
520
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:47.559
love each other and love playing the
game while they're doing it. You know,
521
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:52.079
and just in coaches have a hard
time with that. You know,
522
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:53.480
I see a lot of these high
school coaches. Man, we're going to
523
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.159
with state, we're going to win, stay, we're going to state.
524
00:46:55.320 --> 00:47:00.280
Is like, you know, okay, how many teams in your conference,
525
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:04.400
in your divisions, in your level
of state, are there? Realistically?
526
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.360
You know, why are you going
to sacrifice an entire season for a goal
527
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:14.760
that you really have almost no chance
of achieving you just don't have the players,
528
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.320
you don't have the the the school. You know, there's there's a
529
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:21.320
lot of like I said. You
know, I said before to just genetic
530
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:25.400
talent, that if you don't got
it, you can't teach it. You
531
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.679
know, I'm as much as I
love my five foot seven inch tall outside
532
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:35.559
hitters, I can't teach them to
play like they're six three. Yeah,
533
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.280
I and I, David. I'll
add one thing, well, two things
534
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:45.239
to that, one being that while
we're trying to teach these athletes to be
535
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.480
to love the game and to love
their teammates, we should also be teaching
536
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:53.119
them how to be amazing human beings. And if we're not, we've wasted
537
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:58.760
our time with them, we've wasted
their time with us. And too,
538
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:04.920
when these coaches are proclaiming their goals. I'm going to go to nationals,
539
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.599
we're going to win state, I
always say, okay, now, I
540
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.280
know your goal, but what's your
players goal like? I don't care what
541
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.199
you want. This should not be
about you. I want to know what
542
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:22.440
your players want. Does did the
twelve girls on your high school varsity team
543
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.840
really all want to go to go
and win state or do only three of
544
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:30.440
them, because if only three of
them want it, you're not going,
545
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.639
no matter how much you, as
the coach, won it. And that's
546
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:37.880
where, I don't know what something
you said they're made me really latch onto
547
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:43.599
that idea that we're recognize the fact
that that's where I see a lot of
548
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:51.039
coaches really use punishment is when their
goals and their players goals are different and
549
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.360
that leads to the frustration. You
know, the coach believes this team as
550
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:59.280
the ability to go to nationals,
but the players aren't living up to that
551
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.280
in their mind, in the coach
is mine. So then outcomes the frustration,
552
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:08.360
outcomes the reactionary coaching, and I
think if coaches can just do a
553
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:13.599
better job of sit it, sitting
back and not imposing their goals on the
554
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.320
players and letting the players lead it, there's going to be a lot less
555
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:21.760
frustration, there's going to be a
lot less of that triggering that brings out
556
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:27.280
that desire or that whatever to punish. Instead it's about, it really should
557
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.519
be about the kids and we're just
here to facilitate. We're not here to
558
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:36.760
do any more than that. Like
MOLESCO said, you've got to know your
559
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.760
team. Yeah, yeah, and
even with that, you know, I've
560
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:45.039
got I've got a situation like that. That's that, apart from the coaching
561
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:50.039
part, I have a couple of
guys who are really competitive want to compete
562
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:53.960
on a team that's predominantly guys would
just want to have fun and just want
563
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:58.519
to play and don't really want to, you know, work on on technique
564
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:05.760
as much and and you can see
the friction starting. And we actually had,
565
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:08.519
and this is this is a credit
to my my young assistant coach,
566
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:15.199
who's old beyond his years. He
mediated a discussion with them. I kind
567
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:19.000
of came in and said, here's
my goal, my goals. You three
568
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:21.599
guys, if you don't get along, we're going to have a problem for
569
00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:23.519
the rest of the season because it's
going to disrupt the team. You guys
570
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:27.280
got to figure this out. And
I said, and I'm leaving and I'm
571
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:32.159
letting him, I'm going let my
assistant mediate this because he's good at that.
572
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:39.039
And you know it. It's I'm
still there, the tension still there
573
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:45.239
and it'll probably stay there because they
do have goals that are different. But
574
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:52.440
I think at least now there at
the point where actually he said something to
575
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.880
them. We were in a really
tough match. My number one set or
576
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:59.440
was out out sick and we would
have you know, we really had a
577
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.480
good chance to beat the team we
want. We want lost in five and
578
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.280
they were all exhausted at the end. But as we got a little frustrated
579
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.320
towards the end, he just took
these two guys who were really struggling with
580
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.960
each other, and said you too, for the rest of this match have
581
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:16.239
to assume that the other guy does
not exist. Just play and and it
582
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:21.719
actually was was a pretty good piece
of advice at that time, because they
583
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:23.559
were getting into each other. It's
like, Nope, you just do your
584
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.440
thing and just ignore the other guy. Don't think about them, just play.
585
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:35.000
And that's tough because you don't have
control of it, other than bringing
586
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:39.039
things like mediating discussions and forcing the
issue a little bit to have them,
587
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.719
you know, at least talk it
through. If you got any clever ideas
588
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:49.559
over and above that, I'm all
ears. I'll give you a one.
589
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:54.360
I'll give you a resource, Mark
Bennett. It was a coaching educator in
590
00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:05.360
Europe. He had a recent podcast. It's on a rugby podcast and I'll
591
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.599
send you the link because mark mark
got it. He's he's a genius when
592
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:14.119
it comes to this kind of stuff
and he walked them through almost the exact
593
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:21.280
situation you're talking about about how to
take two or three stars, the superstars
594
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:25.280
of a team, whose motivation is
different, and how to how to bridge
595
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:31.360
the gap between them and the rest
of the team. And I thought it
596
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:36.840
was absolutely brilliant what he what he
suggested, and it was all led by
597
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.719
the kids. It was coach was
barely involved at all and just asking a
598
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:44.519
couple questions here and there. So
I'll send that to you as soon as
599
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:52.039
we're done. It was pretty awesome, fantastic. Thanks, Lauren, and
600
00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:59.679
I have to say to any young
you hope some of these coaches collaver.
601
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:09.039
It's we're here sort of sharing some
of our wid the mistakes we made when
602
00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:19.159
we were young and this this need
to have control. There's only as as
603
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:25.159
Cortis was talking about, I think
there's only a one percent that are going
604
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:30.039
to make or three percent are going
to make it to the college drinks and
605
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:36.920
from ants and girls. That's a
girl, even lower boys. And because
606
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:42.119
of that, why do you coach? And you know, as you guys
607
00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.079
know, my loss of video any
parent or why I'm here in my air
608
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:52.639
is I'm here to develop amazingly leaders. Because of that, it doesn't talk
609
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:57.760
about winning and losing, because that's
out of my control and because of that
610
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:05.000
I'm going to do things that I
know making better humans. But we might
611
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:09.559
even, we might lose something.
And I was reflecting on when I coached
612
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:16.480
cody's team as a senior team.
They're all seniors and they wanted to go
613
00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:21.639
to prom the night before stay playoffs
and I said, as far as I'm
614
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:28.079
concerned, you guys, you know
prom this senior. Your promise a big
615
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.679
deal. Just be at the gym
by fifteen minutes earlier than usual so I
616
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.880
can make sure you're all there in
life is good and we can get ready
617
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:40.239
for the playoffs. And you know, I walked in and I been fifteen
618
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:46.679
in the morning and I had nine
guys in Txedo are had hadn't gotten another
619
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:53.840
textedos and then little locker room and
change and you know, when or lose
620
00:54:54.199 --> 00:55:00.480
doesn't matter. They had that chance
to have that experience and they could have
621
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:04.239
voted and said no, we're not
going to go to prom but they voted
622
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:06.639
and said we're going to go to
prom but we're going to be there on
623
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:12.039
time and you know, I it's
still one of my more delightful memorable moment
624
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:15.280
see all those kids in Txtedos at
some fifteen in the morning in the gym.
625
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:30.280
Just to lend a little bit more
to the why the punishment? and
626
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.239
John's been really good about pointing US
toward the medical profession over time, because
627
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:43.079
they doctors have to continue to study
in order to stay up on things and
628
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:51.920
and how they're treating people. Both
of these organizations have been against physical punishments
629
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:57.280
for for children for a long time, and at least fifteen years. It's
630
00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:05.280
the the American Academy of Pediatrics and
also probably an organization that Heidi is a
631
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:10.440
part of, the Society for Health
and physical educators. Shape is the is
632
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:17.320
the acronym. Both of those organized
are those organizations. The children's doctors and
633
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:27.320
the children's educators have told us that
punishment is a is a poor way and
634
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:32.719
maybe a detrimental way of working with
kids. Why is that not enough for
635
00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:37.280
coaches just reading that to what?
Why is that? Why is that not
636
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.679
enough for us to just say yeah, wow, or at least they dig
637
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:52.199
into the research a little bit.
I think it's because a lot of people
638
00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:00.719
believe that teenagers are not kids.
I think a lot of people think that
639
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:07.760
a high schooler could be treated differently
than an eight year old in this manner.
640
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:09.679
that. Yeah, sure, I
get it. I'm coaching in a
641
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:15.639
night a group of nine year olds
in volleyball. I mean it takes I
642
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.719
don't know, I can't even think
of anybody that I know, even coaches
643
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:23.440
that are like the most hardcore punishment
oriented coaches, I can't think of any
644
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:28.599
of them who would punish a group
of nine year olds the way they do
645
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:32.679
their older kids. And so we
you know, when I first heard that
646
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:40.440
those those statements by those two organizations, I recognize that. You know it,
647
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.519
what most people are going to equate
that with is younger kids. Four,
648
00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:51.679
five, six, seven, eight, nine year olds. And because
649
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:55.719
for some reason we there's not enough
coaches out there who really understand the developing
650
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:02.760
brain and that the brain is not
fully developed until we're in our early to
651
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:08.039
mid S, and so all these
things that are affecting the development of the
652
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.360
brain, that come out of punishment
are still able to affect the brain until
653
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:21.039
we're in our mid late, early
to even late s in some cases.
654
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.320
And and so that's where I think, that's where the hurdle has been for
655
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:29.039
me, because I've cited that many
times with coaches. Hey, there's these
656
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:34.360
two professional organizations that are made up
of some pretty smart people who are saying
657
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:37.559
don't punish kids, don't use physical
punishments a way to enforce anything with kids.
658
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.760
And they're like, yeah, we
get that, but these aren't kids.
659
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:45.239
These are teenagers who are trying to
go to college play volleyball. They're
660
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:47.679
still kids there. They they might
not look like a kid, I mean
661
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:52.960
the six foot three sophomore in high
school who's got a beard is maybe doesn't
662
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:59.199
look like a kid to you,
but his brain is still developing and until
663
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:05.400
the brain is no longer developing and
is an adult brain, they are kids.
664
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:07.920
Doesn't matter. It's we're not talking
about their bodies, we're not talking
665
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:14.480
about pre or post puberty, we're
talking about the brain. That's what's affected
666
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:22.400
by these punishments, and that's where
I think a lot of people don't grasp
667
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.280
when it comes to hearing things like
the these organizations are against punishment, is
668
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:34.000
that they think it applies to little
kids and not really recognizing the fact that
669
00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:37.840
it applies. In my mind,
it applies to college athletes, to I
670
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.199
mean I I think if you're coach
in college, you shouldn't be punishing,
671
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:47.159
you shouldn't be using physical punishment because
you're still dealing with a maturing, developing
672
00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:57.400
brain. So that's that's my thought. You know, you asked about why
673
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.679
do we coaches? Why don't coaches
you know, read the studies, see
674
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:06.119
that stuff? I started coaching because, and I didn't know anything. I
675
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:07.440
was a punishing coach. Came out
there, you go do this and you
676
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.159
know, every time you feilt this, give me two push up, stuff
677
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:15.320
like that. And I did that
for four or five years until I ran
678
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.079
into this Kessel guy at a meeting. It pretty much in the politest way
679
01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:24.239
possible, told me to stop being
an idiot and pay attention, and until
680
01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:28.079
then it never occurred to me you
know, hey, let's go study.
681
01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:31.519
You know, I coached what I
knew or what I had seen, and
682
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:36.119
what that was is what I'd seen
on television, what I seen in movies,
683
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:38.480
what I'd seen at the couple of
the local volleyball games I went to
684
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:43.440
at the high school where the coaches
were yelling and screaming and punishing kids and
685
01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:45.960
stuff, and it's all I knew. I didn't know any better. I
686
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:50.159
didn't see anybody talking. You I
did, didn't you know? I didn't
687
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:52.679
decide, Oh, I'm a middle
school coach now I better go read a
688
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:54.400
whole bunch of stuff and learn how
to be a good coach. I went
689
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:57.800
out said I got to teach them
out a pass I want to pass and,
690
01:00:57.840 --> 01:00:59.760
you know, punish the crap out
of them until they do it I
691
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:02.519
tell him to do. And that, I think a lot of that is
692
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:07.679
getting coaches to understand that. You
know, there's this public perception to coach
693
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:12.800
is a lot of it's fostered by
television, by movie. Could you imagine
694
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.199
how interesting is of a Hollywood movie
going to be of some football coach who
695
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:20.119
talks to his players and ask them
what they're learning? And what did you
696
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:22.199
read on this? See? So
I got never yells, never makes anybody
697
01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:27.239
run sprints, never makes anybody carry
another kid on his back for a hundred
698
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:30.599
yards on his hands and knees and
stuff. You know, nobody's going to
699
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:32.920
want to watch that, nobody's going
to see it, but that's what we
700
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:36.840
see and there we goes. Well, look at this, it works.
701
01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:38.639
It's like, well, yeah,
because it's a movie, you know,
702
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:43.039
the guys are trying to Intu it's
also have a script they're reading and doing,
703
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:51.760
and in real life that stuff doesn't
really work that way. So or
704
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:57.920
is the movie? Nor does the
movie follow the kid after yeah, find
705
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:05.400
out the to find out the ramifications
of that kind of brutal coaching and find
706
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:09.519
out that when that kids dirty,
they're still suffering from trauma from that or
707
01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:15.280
they're treating other people that way and
then and then continuing the cycle of trauma
708
01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.440
for the rest of their lives.
You know, the movies don't stop.
709
01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:22.760
Don't follow that, and that's the
side of it. The people don't see.
710
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:30.119
So if we done enough in this
podcast and and hide you give us
711
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.440
to your thought in a second.
Here. I'm have we done enough if
712
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:40.920
we take this podcast and point it
towards somebody that's that's using punishment? Have
713
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:47.400
we done enough here or do we
need to do more? More, Hi,
714
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:52.119
do what were you going to say? Sorry, I could, I
715
01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:57.039
could go anywhere because relate to mention, because you've brought it up a couple
716
01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:00.239
times now. But the trauma and
I think something that we're looking at more
717
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:05.679
in the schools, as you know, like we're working on being at inform
718
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:13.000
schools. So what you know,
we kind of comes to for and what
719
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:16.199
they're coming with, and I think
in the last few years that's just been
720
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.840
amplified even more with covid and distance
learning and it's kind of meetingum where they're
721
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:28.000
at. But I think a lot
of teaching and coaching kind of relies on
722
01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:31.599
this shaming model of we're going to
put them on the line in front of
723
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:37.079
their peers and if they miss,
they're going to run. But I think
724
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:40.119
it comes back to what I said
at the beginning is we're trying to shade
725
01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:45.239
behavior and it's like what does this
kid, what does this player, what
726
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:50.679
does this student need from me right
now, and what do we as coaches
727
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:52.960
have control over? So we're trying
to get them to all in love with
728
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:59.000
the game. If we want them
to get along with their peers, what
729
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:03.800
are we doing to develop that environment? What are we doing with our practice
730
01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:11.960
plan to meet them where they're act? If they have new defense, they
731
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:15.679
have a lot of new stuff to
learn and they're frustrated with it. What
732
01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:20.079
are what are we building in for
other activities, perspectives that are fun for
733
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:26.039
them, if they look forward to
are we giving them skills to be a
734
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:32.320
good teammate? I think it.
You know, like how can we keep
735
01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:39.280
I wanted to share this book and
I know Krch talked about it at one
736
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:46.559
of the being out the best in
people and I think for me as a
737
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:57.239
teacher, it's it's getting them close. So maybe they kid needs a freak.
738
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:04.320
In my environment and I have students
that throw stuff and I have to
739
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:11.880
find a way to teach them.
How can you get closer to what it
740
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:23.159
is you want to see? Always
go from throwing stuff fully participating in a
741
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:28.960
class? How, when they're making
steps towards those behaviors that you do want
742
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:36.639
to see, how can you get
it right? Hidi, PJ, is
743
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:42.559
brow real quick. You've got lean
to your right when you're speaking. I
744
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:45.519
think the microphone. Yeah, it's
for some reason. I think that works
745
01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:51.840
a little better, but anyways,
sorry to interrupt. I was just going
746
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:57.519
to say that in answer your question, b j, have we done enough?
747
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:03.360
I don't think we can. We've
got six very unique people in this
748
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:10.440
podcast who actually challenge their beliefs in
the evidence in the in the presence of
749
01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:16.760
evidence. That is not normal,
unfortunately, in my experience in coaching or
750
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:23.639
in life, that when people are
presented with evidence that shows what they're doing
751
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:30.679
is wrong or destructive or not effective
or efficient, what do people typically do?
752
01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:33.679
They don't go, Oh, I'll
go read some more on it.
753
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:40.920
I didn't and John First, not
in person but through his blog, first
754
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:45.519
presented these ideas to me and I
read them. I fought it. I
755
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:53.960
fought it for years. So I
I think the answer isn't. Can we
756
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.280
provide enough information to convince people to
change? I don't think you get people
757
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:05.079
to change with information. Again,
something John is famous for saying as what's
758
01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:11.960
truer than true the story, and
I think that that is a big part
759
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:16.960
for this. We have to create
a narrative that allows for that, that
760
01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:21.840
elicits the change rather than tells people
they have to change. We have to
761
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:25.440
create a story and I don't know
how to do that. I'm not a
762
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:30.599
storytelling but I think that's what it
comes down to. Is We can't just
763
01:07:30.679 --> 01:07:33.760
go and put these studies in front
of people and say, look at this
764
01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:38.480
information and, based on this information, you should change what you're doing.
765
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:42.199
That's a really good way to make
sure that a lot of those people never
766
01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:47.480
read the information. I think we
have to make sure that we have to
767
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.960
find a different way and I again
I don't know what that is. I've
768
01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:57.559
struggled with it for ten years and
I don't know the answer. Only thing
769
01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:03.519
I know is that I can affect
one or two people in a year who
770
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:10.760
I meet or who I know who
are willing to listen into to do the
771
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:18.279
their own educate, to educate themselves, but there's hundreds that don't. So
772
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:23.439
I don't know what the right answer
there is, but I don't think it's
773
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.720
I think conversations like this are fun
for me and I think there are people
774
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.279
who are going to listen to this
conversation find interest in it, but I
775
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:32.960
think that they are those people who
listen to this conversation or probably already on
776
01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:39.960
the fence. Someone the people we
really need to change are not listening to
777
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:45.359
this conversation. So how do we
get them to listen to it? I
778
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:49.600
love this storytelling aspect of it,
one because I study that a bit,
779
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:54.560
but also, you know, got
me to think if I was to tell
780
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:58.439
a story right now, I'd probably
tell a story like what happened with the
781
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:03.399
women's team in how cards has taken
a very different approach to building that team
782
01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:09.680
and defining roles and making it okay
to be that player who comes off the
783
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:14.720
bench for Energy and, you know, fills in when when that kids,
784
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:19.159
you know, not available to play
or injured or whatever. You know,
785
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:24.239
those kinds of stories, to your
point, Lauren, are going to resonate
786
01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:32.039
with people more than a lovely powerpoint
deck that walks through all of the science
787
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:39.600
behind this. So finding those stories
and telling those stories can be something we
788
01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:42.960
I think we do, but we
probably don't focus on enough and there might
789
01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:48.560
be an opportunity there. Yeah,
I mean you mentioned the fact that a
790
01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:51.680
lot of, I think David mentioned
at a lot of our current coaching practices
791
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:58.039
are derived from aspects of our culture. You know, what we see on
792
01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:02.159
TV, what we see, what
we read, what the person down the
793
01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:05.239
street, for me, does,
what I experience as I grew up.
794
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:11.079
How do we how do we change
coaches? We change those things. We
795
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:17.720
get a movie made about a coach
who is a who ask great questions and
796
01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:24.640
is calm the entire movie and gives
over the power of leadership to his players.
797
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:31.600
We get more stories like that told
in so that people can see them
798
01:10:31.640 --> 01:10:38.319
and give it, give it weight, you know, just as a reference
799
01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:41.840
to like the story idea. I
don't know if you've seen or read the
800
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:47.960
new book by Billy Allen, his
little mental strength book that he came out
801
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:53.680
with. It's a story of a
young girl learning how to joust. I
802
01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:58.000
mean it's brilliant. He's a storyteller. That's that's what we need more of
803
01:10:58.079 --> 01:11:03.680
in coaching is people who can take
a simple story and tell a profound message
804
01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:09.800
through it that people are going to
Jive with, and I think that's what
805
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:14.560
this is. You know, the
more of that we can get, the
806
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:17.479
the more change will see. But
again, you don't get you don't get
807
01:11:17.479 --> 01:11:21.359
people to change by giving them facts. I just don't think you do.
808
01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:26.840
I think you give them to change
by hitting them in the in the heart.
809
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:33.000
That's where we that's where we need
to focus more. I think we're
810
01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:39.319
fifteen minutes past our hour. You
know, if anybody else says any last
811
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:44.000
profound thoughts that they want to give, but thank you all for coming on
812
01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:48.800
and I'll leave it up to Steve
to guide us out, but please give
813
01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:51.840
us your last thoughts if you have
something else that's on your mind about this
814
01:11:51.880 --> 01:12:08.479
topic? Bueler, Bueler. Well, look, it's I appreciate it.
815
01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:14.159
There's a lot of moving parts some
of our platform work today. We haven't
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01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:17.079
used zoom before, so thank you
for being our first experiment and actually we're
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01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:23.119
reasonably well to bring it into this
platform and we've been able to use both
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01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:27.359
to advantage and will do more of
this sort of thing. I'm John.
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01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:35.119
Hope you're feeling better and hope you're
enjoying your time down there and will do
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01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:40.119
more of these things if you have
topics that you want us to anybody here
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or anybody listening. will put this
out in a podcast as well for people
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01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:49.640
who just like to listen to things, and we're kind of building this this
823
01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:54.840
week go along. So every weeks
of work in progress and we made a
824
01:12:54.840 --> 01:13:00.239
lot of progress this week. So
I hope you all have a good week
825
01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:04.640
and we'll see the rest of you
viewers and people are listening to this next
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01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:14.880
week and thanks for being here.
Thank you. You see all. Thanks
827
01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:18.159
for listening and thanks to our guests
for joining us today. We're alive on
828
01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:23.119
Youtube almost weekly on Sunday mornings in
the US. Check US out at the
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01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:28.159
coach Steve Youtube Channel. We post
links to our sessions on the volleyball coaches
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01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:34.399
and trainers facebook group as well.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME
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00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.039
Welcome to talking volleyball. I'm Steve
Hammond, D J Leroy, and I
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00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:14.279
have weekly conversations with coaches and others
who are passionate about volleyball and interested in
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00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:19.440
learning better ways to teach the sport. In this episode we explore reasons that
4
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:25.079
coaches use punishment and consequences in their
coaching. We are joined by Heidi Anderson,
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00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:29.679
John Kessel, David Cordis and Lauren
Anderson, who share their thoughts,
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00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:40.280
experiences and learnings. Okay, so, if you're here with us today,
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we are experimenting like crazy, and
so lauren is with us through zoom and
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00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:54.679
hid these with us through our normal
platform, and we've got a couple other
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00:00:54.719 --> 00:01:00.719
folks invited and they may be having
problems to finding our main platform for whatever
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reason. Every time Lauren try to
get any froze. It was very nice
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shot of you, but normally it's
Hidi and me doing the freezing. Yeah,
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we're experience a little bit alarm.
So where in the world is Lauren
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Anderson? Sorry, I you guys
cut out just a little bit. Tell
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me what you just are you where? You said my name. Where am
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I? I'm at a best I
parking lot in Boise, Idaho. What
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could be better? Yeah, I
know my yeah, I'm back in Idaho
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after almost six months of travel.
I'm just here and I'm in Boisee for
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just a couple weeks and then I'm
headed up into the mountains of Central Idaho.
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But I my trailer, where my
trailers currently parked and where I'm living
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for these two weeks, there is
pretty much no sell signal or Wifi have
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any kind. So I had to
drive into town too. I was going
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to stop at a coffee shop and
they are closed. So I'm sitting in
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the parking lot and said it sounds
like a little bit of a country solution.
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Yeah, yeah, you know,
it's been my it's been my life
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for the last five and a half
months, so that's awesome. So Um
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Lauren's been on before. We know
a little bit about him. Hidi,
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tell us. Tell us a little
bit about you before we get into this
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punishment discussion. I'M UP IN NORTHERN
MINNESOTA. I'm a elementary physical education teacher.
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They worked with first through fourth graders. I coach high school volleyball.
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This is my eighteen or nineteen season. It work with club volleyball kind of
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all levels from beginners all the way
up through high school and starting to work
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with boys a little bit as we're
working on our boys program here. So
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that's that's the topic when you come. I mean there's a hundred topics that
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we could discuss with you, but
the topic, I think the coolest one
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to discuss, will be the differences
you find between newcomer boys and somewhat experienced
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girls that are going to be about
the same age. That'll be fun to
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dive into. Yeah, I've just
we've gotten to work. We've just had
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a few practices and my assistant coach
is really working on the boys effort here
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in Minnesota. We're going to get
a sanctioned and I haven't I'm not running
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their practices, but I'm helping in
any way I can and and I obviously
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have a lot of boys that come
through our school program or elementary that I
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have that come watch our teams and
the interest is there. It's just trying
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to continue to find coaches and supports
to build it, and that's cool.
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If three kids are my own that
I coach. So I have a thirty
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or twelve year old, almost thirteen, eleven year old and then my son
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is almost eight. So he's interested
in playing to and I coach both of
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the girls teams and I'm sure I'll
be working with you. I too.
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I know that green may has has
your kids on their recruiting list for for
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five years from now. So we'll
little goes. We we keep getting questions.
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Are My twelve team I was telling
you about is really talented, but
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they're really tells who just turned eleven
is like five seven or five six and
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a half, and so we have
a lot of parents whispering in the bleachers
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like are they really only sixth graders? And I said actually, we got
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a couple fifth graders on the team
too, but they just kind of a
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fun group that like they have a
high volleyball IQ and they are competitive,
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but they just kind of buy in. So you this have to shoom like
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we did the loser becomes a net
the other day in practice. You only
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have to show them one time and
then at the tournament, you know,
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you get two minutes of shared time. It's like we're going to do whosier
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becomes a net. So they love
it. That's awesome. Lauren, how
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are you getting your volleyball fix nowadays? What are you doing? I played
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for the first time and five months
two days ago, still not really walking
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straight after that. But yeah,
not a lot. I mean, I
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guess my big thing right now is
the current project I've decided to work on,
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more of an online thing. That
will fit into what I'm doing with
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my life a little bit give me
a chance to do something regarding volleyball even
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when I'm in the middle of nowhere, of central Ida, hope, for
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the next five and a half months. So yeah, yeah, that look
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like a NEAT project and I've already
submitted my survey, so I can't wait
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to see where that goes for you. I'LL BE NEAT. Yeah, we'll
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see. It's I'm excited about it. In my travels across the US over
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the last six months, I talked
to a lot of parents about the idea
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and all of them felt that was
a necessary resource for them, like,
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you know, being able to have
some sort of just a little bit of
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advice about what they can do to
help their kids, because that's what every
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parent, every every parent wants to
be able to help their kids because they
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love them and if they but a
lot of them don't know what to do.
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So yeah, yeah, that's that's
it's true. Hey, we could
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spend a whole there's another episode that
we could do is just how to work
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with parents and figuring out that,
how to figure out they aren't the enemy
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and how to use them as a
resource rather than a rather than a speed
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bump. You know, yeah,
I just you found going to get.
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A lot of coaches want to tell
here and say your job is to bring
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your kid to practice, drop them
off and let me do my job,
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and that's just so unrealistic that no
wonder a lot of coaches get frustrated because
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and parents get frustrated because that's just
unrealistic expectation. Parents see the kids more
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than the coaches do, hopefully,
and in their parents they love them,
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they want to help them and sure
we're not going to say like we don't
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want you to bulldoze the path,
we don't want you to be a helicopter
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parent, but here's, here's things
you can do that are very good for
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you and your kid and the relationship
between you and your coach. And I
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just think a lot of people,
a lot of coaches, myself included,
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for many years messed up by not
by not recognizing the value of incorporating the
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parent in the process. Yeah,
I agree with you there and maybe I'll
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maybe hide can speak just a little
bit more about that. But I mean
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there are a resource. There's a
lot there. Yeah, and I think
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I'm learning a lot. I have
both my daughter's team this year, so
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I'm learning a lot from the parent
perspective and just the kids, you know,
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like what they need support with.
And then I think it's been very
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helpful, like they will share like
I'm so nervous about playing this team and
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like hearing that from my own kid. And then what would I say to
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my own kid who's feeling nervous about
playing? But a lot of other parents
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don't have that same perspective. So
I think they're doing the best, you
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know, with what they have.
I think my first reaction was like you
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can't say that out loud in front
of your team, then they're going to
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be nervous. But then I said, I'm glad you shared that because if
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I didn't have a kid on the
team, maybe one of the players doesn't
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feel comfortable saying that, and then
we can kind of address it as a
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group. And we usually do a
preseason meeting for our club and we didn't
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do one of those this year and
I'm finding myself with a lot of new
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players and parents and I'm doing a
lot more reactive having to explain things that
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just they're drinking bubblers and caffeine and
they're coming in with McDonald's food. And
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I have had a lot of kids
that have played a lot of club and
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now I have all these new ones
and as like you, you know,
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maybe that's not the best way to
prepare for a tournament, but we didn't,
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you know, go over any of
that and so if you think back
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to the first time they play a
club tournament, there's a break and they
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think I'm going to run out and
get some food. And so, Lauren,
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I got to find your survey,
but I have a few ideas for
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you. Working with a lot of
new families this year, but it's been
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a good experience and I think they're
doing the best they can. Kids don't
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come with the manual. So well
that. Yeah, I agree. I'll
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hit you up the idea we've got
it. Love to hear your ideas as
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far as what you have, what
you've learned from what you're doing. I
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John, and now we have all
comes with people adding looks like we got
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David Cortez and we got some other
old, retired, gray haired guy who
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I don't even recognize. Are you
doing, John and David? Doing?
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Well, goodness good to see your
faces. So I sent heelt this note
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to everybody we had in volleyball,
coaches and trainers, just the coaches group
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that we're all a part of.
We three or four times this week we
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had the the topic of consequences,
which are really punishments, come up and
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and people asking are they necessary,
or how do we use them, or
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what's the way that you that you
you know, discipline your kids, and
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I know all of your know all
of your thoughts, but I know each
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of you has some opinions and beliefs
about about using punishment as a means to
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to train. Let's let's just start
with a definition. I mean, Heidi,
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maybe you're the best one to answer
this just because you you've studied this
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more than the rest of us.
What are we talking about when we mean
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a physical punishment, like what?
What is it? How is it that
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coaches, you know what is punishment? How does it manifest itself in the
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gym? That's funny. I was
googling what the definition is because I think
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people this morning. I think people
sometimes mix up reinforcements, consequences, punishment
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and I'm not sure that I know
the exact definition, but I think what
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we're looking for is that people want
to see a change. Heave your right.
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So they're either like trying to add
something like doing push ups or running
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a sprint, or or they're trying
to take something away, like playing time
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or, you know, their position
or a spot on team. So I
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think what we're looking for is now
we want to see engine behavior. Is
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that or to try to, you
know, keep something, you know,
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players not going after a ball.
We don't want to continue to see that
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behavior. So we are going to
have a pushment, like making them run
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or do push ups or dive Dow
Rolls or whatever the punishment is, because
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we want to see them do something
different. Big a ball, pass the
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ball. Is that? Yeah,
even David was the one that really solidified
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this for me. He wrote in
decent he wrote of post, I don't
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know, it's probably six or seven
years ago now, the difference between punishments
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and consequences. David, would what
was it? Do you remember that?
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I'm sure you remember writing it.
What was your basic premise? Basic premise
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was punished. For me, punishments
is something the coach adds on. That's
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not a natural consequence of the actions. You know, it's just, you
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know, kid shows up for light
for practice, the natural consequences. You
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missed part of practice and you're disrupting
us. You got to jump in now,
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you know. And if I make
you run three laps because your three
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is late, well that's the punishment. You know, the natural consequences.
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You're behind, you're disrupting your team
and stuff like that. You know,
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jump in here, get up,
caught up to speed as fast as you
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can with what we're doing and get
on with it. You know, they're
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you know, there doesn't have to
be a punishment for that. You know,
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as long as they start understanding the
consequence of what they did. You
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know, that's kind of our jobs. Causes. Teach them these are the
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consequences of your actions. You know, when you when you show up late,
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are you don't show up on time
and stuff, these are the consequences.
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This is the price everyone else is
paying for you being late and stuff
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be on ends up and now let's
get back into what we're doing. or
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I push more for trying to let
the consequences and we take effect. You
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know stuff you know everybody's going to
do. You punish somebody for missing a
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serves like, well, they just
lost a point. Isn't that enough punishment?
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Yeah, why is this such a
natural go to Abbes? Open that
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up for anybody. Why is it
the coaches? And we've all done it,
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I'm certain. I know I did
and I know I've heard David and
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Steve and everybody. And when we
started, maybe not hide because she knew
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better. But why is it that
we resort for that control? I think
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it just comes down to control.
We're in a situation that we don't have
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control and the only way that we
can and insert our control or one way,
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the easy way. I mean I
people get me flat for this all
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the time, but I relate it
to my dogs. I mean there's ways,
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there's different ways to train a dog, but the easiest way, in
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the way that most people train a
dog is through punishment. Goes the bathroom
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on the floor. You punish it. Now it's so afraid of the punishment
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it won't do the action anymore.
That's control it's about. It's a quick,
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easy way to control another living organism
and but what people don't understand is
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the long term effects that has.
You know, I think there's an element
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of what we have seen before.
It's you know, I've spent a lot
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of time on learning it, but
I've got a young coach. He's really
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good, really good. Effect is
coming back your way back to Colorado.
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Shortly I'm losing him to go back
home, but twenty one year old,
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just turned twenty one. Just awesome. But idea. The day he was
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getting frustrated with the guys and was
like there's got to be a consequence for
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this, and I'm just sitting there
going yes, but what happens when we
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do this? What? What effect
does it have on the entire team?
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You know, and and you know
this situation I'm in now with a school
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where we're just really we got a
lot of first your players, a lot
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of kids. I've got a kid, two kids, in a family that
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I don't really know exactly how the
dynamic works because they're no same last names.
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All, you know, the usual
kind of stuff where you're kind of
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like, I'm not sure who belongs
to who here, but they're in the
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same household. One of them is
constantly working doing chores and working the job
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and he's a practice twenty percent of
the time and the other one is a
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practice fifty sixty percent of the time
but is academically ineligible probably won't ever play
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this year. What do you do? Do you kick him out? Do
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you tell him no? It's like
we still may be the best part of
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their day. So you know,
punishment doesn't work there, for me at
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least idea. I'm the coach in
the situation. I think, like Lauren
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said, I think some coaches are
punishing for control. I think I have
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the same word that Steve did,
frustration. I see a lot just having
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a lack of skills of what to
do when they see their athletes airring or
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making a mistake or you didn't clean
the boss or, you know, not
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knowing how to deal with the situation. Something triggers you know, we missed
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a serve, we hit the BAMB
in that we aren't focused and it's not
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having a plan, it's not having
skills of how to teach it. Get
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frustrated and then they restart to punish
it. Certainly some of that can come
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from that's what my coach go with
it. I think when they do the
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punishment they see an improvement in their
effort, in their focus, in their
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working hard, and then think it
works. But I think it's something is
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triggering their frustrating. They're frustrated and
the easy solution is run or punishment or
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do it my way, instead of
looking at like what it is the coots
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do differently. How can I put
my drools together in a better order?
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How can I keep interest my team? They don't look at that themselves.
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They look at it as I have
to do something to somebody else. Yeah,
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I like Lawrence. Not Go ahead, I like I like Lawrence.
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You know, they're looking for control
and stuff, the word I wise you
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used. As you know, when
you start punishing, are you looking for
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growth or development your players, or
are you looking for obedience? Are they
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doing what you're telling them to do
and stuff in the way you're telling to
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do that? And, like Heidi
said, PUTTY SMITH GETS FAST results.
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You see quick results. Things change
really fast, but in the long term,
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meaning a week or two later or
years later, are they really learning
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what they need to learn? I
mean, are they becoming better volleyball players
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for the sake of becoming better volleyball
players, or are they getting better to
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skill to avoid being punished for it, for not doing it, and you
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know it's just the punished. I
I'm willing to give up that. Dad.
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Immediate, quick, easy seat double. I saw some results. It's
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great and stuff, and I would
rather go for the long term growth of
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developing good players who do the right
things because it's the right thing to do,
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not because they're afraid of what you're
going to do to them if they
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don't. I think it was,
I'm fairly certain it was John. That
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of course, be in the storyteller
that he is, made an analogy to
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classroom teachers and punishment. John.
Do you recall that or I giving you
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enough of a prompt there too?
Yeah, I think that everybody on here,
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we've got a pretty or why we
coach want to be well developed,
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and the same would go for,
I think, all of these teachers he's
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got in her schools and stuff.
You know she works with. Why do
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you coach? Why do you teach
in a good teacher in first grade after
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you miss the path or not making
you do push ups or any sort of
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physical honey? And I think one
of the things that a young coach like
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your twenty one coach t needs to
understand big picture wise, is is you're
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probably being fooled by regression in the
meat and you know that are coe I've
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shared with all of you and impact
greatly. Thirty five years ago is so
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four years ago. It's just that, because we see that that change in
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and succepter, they perform poorly and
something we think that it's working when in
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reality it's not. And you know, I blog a long time ago called
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coaching the human animal, because all
the amazing things that non human living organisms
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do come from reward, not from
punishment. And you see in those animals,
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including dogs, that the trust in
the bond, the why you coach,
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just you know why you have a
dog, why you teach. You
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and natively impacted by the threat of
some sort of punny shots. And you
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know, I I just want to
say to any of those coaches that make
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them do win sprints at time mouths
or losing them game and then they make
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them do all these physical, corporal
punny you're just getting fooled by randomness to
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if at all, the think that
this is changing their behavior. You coach
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to change behavior and you are apparently
prettishing to change behavior and and I know
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your so you're in simple yeah,
all, I'll second and third those comments.
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I think it's really you know,
comes down to that idea of what
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David said. Do we are we
more concerned with them obeying US then we
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are about them learning and through sense, actions speak louder than words. I
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would say a lot of coaches are
more concerned with people obeying them then learning,
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because that's the way the coaches act. They're happier when a player does
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what they're told. Then does then
letting them do whatever needs to be done
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in the process of learning. We're
going to make mistakes. We're going to
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and you know, I've been in
so many gyms in the last six months
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where they say we understand mistakes are
necessary, we have to you know,
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mistakes are part of the process training. Ugly, all these buzz words that
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are important, but then you watch
the way that these coaches interact with their
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players and it's very clear to me
and to the players that mistakes aren't really
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allowed and they are there is punishment
for it, and I don't think I
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don't think punishment, when we say
punishment, is not a great aspect of
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the learning process. I don't think
we should limit that to physical punishment.
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I think there are there's many other
ways that coaches punished players. They can
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actually be more destructive. You know, getting on a player and then in
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front of all of their peers for
a mistake that they made during practice can
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have devastating consequences for that player in
the moment and in the long run.
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I mean there's just so much evidence
now talking about the trauma that the brain
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can be i. can affect the
brain for such a long period of time.
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I think it's it's really important that
we as coaches recognize what role we
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play in that. So we got
a question and in the chat here from
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Steve. So it's talking about a
player's got a lack of effort. But
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let's the ball drop is doing coach
one on one, mimicking the drop ball
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with that player, considering considered a
punishment. Lauren, I think you just
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hit it. Sorry, I didn't
mean to last, it just came out.
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Yeah, if you want me to
answer that, I would say yes,
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it's considered a punishment and no,
it's not a providing a learning environment.
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Those I mean. So you basically
taken away every opportunity to learn for
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that player. And what you've done
instead is created a rehearsed environment in which
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there they are. Only thing they're
learning is how to obey what you're telling
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him to do. Yeah, I
think that's the wious thing. Warn is
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that you've taken him now out of
the environment where they needed to get that
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ball. Now it's one on one, so they know every ball is.
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There's where oftentimes the ball that drops
falls in because they weren't sure it was
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theirs. It's, it's. It
could be as simple as that. Whose
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Bowl was that? Oh, we're
counting on you and that. And John,
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you were going to say something that
too. It's the whole point in
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our forward the number one skill is
reading in and I would argue, you
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know, cody just qualified for the
finals. They won in the Bundesliga and
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so they're in the grand finals.
And I watch these mistakes being made by
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these highly paid professionals and thought every
single mistake I saw was not on purpose.
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It was done out of being in
the wrong place at the wrong time,
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where a slight misjudgment or as like
misread of the set or a setting
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fault, that that was not done
on purpose. And you know, I'm
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down on air with all these kids, seeing thousands of mistakes and it's like
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there isn't a single kid here that
is making a mistake on purpose. So
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why are you treating them as you
know, verbally or physically? And if
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they are, and why have you
stopped coaching? And I think it's because
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really great teachers do one thing and
to have a chemistry professor do a physical
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punishment, you know, you'd think
this guy's waxed where you got to get
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rid of this professor and he you
know, he doesn't know how to teach.
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And yet you bring it into the
gym and it's okay. And I
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am totally, you know, agree
with the concept of the consequences is that
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you hit it out and you and
lost that game and so now you're going
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to have to play a fourth set. That's plenty of consequence points for anybody
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that's playing with any heart and soul
on a on a team sport. And
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I just I can't I understand where
the culture came from and I understand that
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there's football coaches that may think,
you know, develops man and whatever,
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but the greatest teams, you know
that you're seeing now, you don't see
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coaches that are doing that form of
traditional punishment. Instead, they're catching their
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athletes being good and all those other
things that we all know and want to
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see happen more. And one thing
that fascinates me is that the culture where
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probably this whole idea started, I
would guess, is military, and even
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the military has moved away from this
model. They are no longer punishing their
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soldiers. You know, you get
somebody like the Navy seals or the Army
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Rangers or some of these incredibly talented
soldiers in their fields and you know they
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it is life and death for them, which is something that volleyball is not
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nor will ever be. And yet
what they are moving to now as models
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in which you don't see this severe
forms of punishment. Yes, they have
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very hard physical activities they have to
do because that's part of their job,
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but they're don't they're they're not being
punished in the classic way that they used
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to be. And it because the
military, the different branch of the military,
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have recognized that that stop that that
decreases motivation and decreases the rate of
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learning. And so if they're learning, if they're flyingness for the military,
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why or why are so many sports
coaches still holding onto it. That's just
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what Fath that. It fascinates me, it depresses me, it frustrates me
351
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all the same time. I think, along with their reading pieces, making
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decisions and I think they're moving for
from a with this way, because you're
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following my command to meeting people who
are on the front lines, are in
354
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a battle, having to make divisions, and I think that's level, as
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are they progressive and as a competition
gets better. In playoffs, you know,
356
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games moving a little faster, decisions
have to be made and do start
357
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sees for those things break down.
Along with reading, it's also having to
358
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make a decision. And I and
I think this question in that the piece
359
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that I kind of wanted to talk
more about was when they're giving a lack
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of effort or they're having a lack
of focus. I think to me that
361
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maybe a different kind of mistake than
like a reading error or a decisionmaking error,
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because I do think you see,
you know, what about the player
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who's not giving any effort? What
about the player WHO's not focus? How
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do you deal with that part,
because they're deciding at last they should take
365
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it forwards in is there a difference
than how you beat a kid who has
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the effort state as opposed to like
physical error. Well, I'll say this
367
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that the only time I would ever
think of having a consequence for a player
368
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based on my perceived my perception that
they were giving less effort, would be
369
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if I could one hundred percent measure
and know that they were giving less effort.
370
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I do not want to punish a
kid based on my bias and my
371
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incorrect perception of their effort level or
of their focus level. Maybe they're one
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hundred percent focus to them, but
I'm perceiving it wrong and then I punish
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them. What does that do to
that kid? What does that say to
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that kid? No matter what I
do, I'm going to get punished.
375
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If that kid comes out and is, in their mind giving one hundred percent
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effort and I perceive it as less
effort than what I want. What what
377
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message does that send to that kid
if I punish them that no matter what
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they do, they're going to get
punished. So why why try hard?
379
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I'm going to get punished anyway.
So unless I can find a way,
380
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which I have not yet, to
one hundred percent measure and no factually whether
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someone is giving effort or focus,
I'm not going to punish a kid for
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those things either. Do any of
you feel like this? Has Been My
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belief since we quit doing this.
I don't know twenty five years ago would
384
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put the punishment thing, but do
many of you feel like it just allows
385
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the player to immediately get off the
hook, like the ball dropped. They
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did my five pushups and now it's
over. It feels to me like it
387
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takes the focus off of the winning
and losing. You guys feel that way
388
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or do you have any thoughts on
that? Well, I agree. I
389
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think it's because when you when you
punish, you have to continually amp up
390
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the punishment sport to have any kind
of effect in the long term. And
391
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so if a player else to do
five pushups for missing a dig the first
392
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.840
few times, the first week,
the first month, maybe they're really trying
393
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:14.440
to go for the dig because they
don't want to do the five pushups.
394
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:20.079
But over time those five pushups just
become norm. And you know what,
395
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:22.559
I didn't go for the day.
Oh well, you know, before the
396
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.440
coach even says anything, the players
off on the sidelines doing their pushups,
397
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:30.760
and that's when it to me.
It becomes it's no longer affecting change.
398
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:37.159
It's no longer somewhere in that kid's
body and their mind and they're being it's
399
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.599
no longer even a punishment, it's
just part of practice, and so it
400
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:45.719
is getting them off the hook.
They don't. I mean I've seen kids
401
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:52.559
deliberately not do something on a court
so that they could be pulled out of
402
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:59.239
a game because they knew it was
coming. I've seen kids deliberately do things
403
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:05.000
they knew they were going to get
punished for because the punishment was actually more
404
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.519
enjoyable to them than the thing they
were doing. You know, I don't.
405
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:13.119
I'm not having fun playing because my
coach continually yells at me and is
406
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.840
threatening me. So I'm going to
do something that I know is going to
407
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:19.239
make the coach pull me out of
the game so that I can sit on
408
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.199
the bench and I have to do
with this stress. So I do think
409
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.840
there is that factor and it beach. I don't think it's true of everyone,
410
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:35.639
but I definitely have seen it.
So what else can we do?
411
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.480
What else do we do? How
do we handle it? Well, I
412
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:49.039
had won this week where you kind
of have to be you know, tune
413
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.440
yourself into it. So for all
of us are different points on that spectrum.
414
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.719
I'm on the spectrum where I'll react
occasionally, and I reacted. I
415
00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:02.039
had a I was introducing another defense
and my Libero decided to come over while
416
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.880
we were trying to introduce this and
we'd spent maybe fifteen minutes on it,
417
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:08.360
and said, I don't know,
I really don't think this is going to
418
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.440
work. We need this, isn't
you know, and just gave me all
419
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.599
this stuff and I I just looked
at him and said, okay, look
420
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:19.119
one, you're not the coach to
you've been doing this for fifteen minutes.
421
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.280
Go do it. And you know
that was very directive. And you know,
422
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.119
I caught myself a little later and
I took him aside and his to
423
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:29.400
look, oh, you, apology. That's not the way I should act
424
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:34.039
when I'm trying to explain that to
you. And, interestingly enough, kid
425
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.320
is pretty emotionally intelligent. He kind
of came back the next day and said,
426
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.960
I'm sorry, I reacted that way. I actually think it might work.
427
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.719
So we kind of negotiated our way
through that, but we were both
428
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:50.280
human in the process. The question
is, are you open to learning from
429
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.920
that and going okay, that didn't
really work the way I was intending it
430
00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:01.639
to work and maybe I need to
take a different approach. Well, I'm
431
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:07.039
going to say they're going to go
lords. Well, I'm just going to
432
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.079
say that, I think what we
answer your question? What do we do?
433
00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:17.440
So you know, we can't just
coaches who typically use punishment as part
434
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:24.400
of their training process. They just
they can't just stop punishment and then and
435
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:30.760
not having any to fill in that
with. I mean, they probably could
436
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:32.639
and it would be fine, but
the coach would feel like they are still
437
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:38.280
something they need to do. So
in you know in the rise Jim that
438
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.239
I'm no longer there, but I
know they continue to do this. Is
439
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:46.360
it's just cultivating a love of the
game. That's it. You know,
440
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:51.639
I can't remember which I can see
his face, I can't think of his
441
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.920
name, but there's a golf coach
and the you know, Kingdom who also
442
00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.000
does some mental strength and mention mental
performance work and stuff, and he has
443
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:04.960
a saying that really rocked my world
when I first heard it and I now
444
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:08.559
become a huge believer of it,
and that is that these things that we
445
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:15.760
see as a coach or as a
spectator, like discipline, like hard work,
446
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.760
motivation, all of those are just
love of the game seen from a
447
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:27.320
third person perspective. And so if
we want a kid to be more motivated,
448
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.519
if we want a kid to work
harder, we want a kid to
449
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:36.519
be more focused, help them love
the game. Cultivate a love of the
450
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:43.840
game. And if you have those
circumstances that are more one offs, where
451
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.519
people typically punish, where you know, kid doesn't go for a ball,
452
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:52.639
or kid misses their serve or makes
the wrong decision in a game, setter
453
00:40:52.800 --> 00:41:00.400
sets the worst hitter on game point, whatever it might be, have conversations
454
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:06.960
with them rather than punish them.
Have have conversations, ask him some really
455
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.239
great questions. You know, I
my Dad taught me when I was young
456
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.920
that saying of if you don't like
the answer, ask a different question.
457
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:20.119
Well, what the player is doing
out on the court is an answer to
458
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:24.039
the problems that the game is posing
them. So if we don't like the
459
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:29.880
answer that they're giving, ask a
different question or create a game that asks
460
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:35.760
a better question so that they can
then explore new answers rather than punish them.
461
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.840
I just I'm guilty of punishing kids
for a good portion of my coaching
462
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.599
career, but it never felt good, it never felt right. I did
463
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.360
it because it's what I thought we
were supposed to do as coaches. It
464
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:58.480
never felt right. And then when
certain unnamed white haired, White Shirt stripes
465
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:08.000
men gave me the permission to really
look into that idea and realize that it
466
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:13.159
didn't feel good because it wasn't right, it wasn't necessary and we could find
467
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:19.480
better ways. I mean, obviously
now I'm I don't you know. What
468
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.119
do we do different? We cultivate
a love of the game and we treat
469
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:27.320
each kid in our gym as an
individual and have conversations with them about where
470
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.440
they're at. And I think that's
it. That's it. And I gotta
471
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:40.079
say, Lauren, not only of
you become a much, much, much
472
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:47.440
stronger coach, but you're the group
here is doing a lot of really important
473
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:54.480
work of teaching what we learn to
others. And you know by that we
474
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.440
learn it even better. I mean
hid he's doing it all the time all
475
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:05.079
over her friggin state, as they
can. BJ's too, and and I
476
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:09.960
just I can't say enough that the
whole point is to give them a love
477
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.199
of the game, like your golf, I said, or whatever. I
478
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:22.719
mean if I did it once,
I did it a thousand times. After
479
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:29.239
tournament, kids in the car and
all I said was, I love to
480
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.719
watch you play, and I still
say that to cody even though he's a
481
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:43.519
and that whole foundation of love kind
of is why, Lauren, you're succeeding
482
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:51.239
in understanding, I think, well, how we want to moveivationally, interview
483
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:54.440
these kids, how we want to
either discovery of stuff that we know that
484
00:43:54.519 --> 00:44:00.840
they don't know yet. Yeah,
that isn't punishment, but that is a
485
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:06.559
dialog. Takes longer, and I
understand that this takes longer, but it's
486
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:13.559
worth it because then those athletes,
hopefully you're playing in the eighty and over
487
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:19.639
national championships in another, you know, sixty years because they have that love
488
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:35.880
of the game. Yeah, ive
it. You're seeing something. Before I
489
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:39.000
come into saying I talked to ask
a lot of coaches. You know the
490
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:44.119
two questions I asked that and I
want do you want to spend the limited
491
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.840
time you have with these kids punishing
them or helping them learn and grow and
492
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.199
become better athletes? You know,
you got decide which one do you want
493
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.239
to do, because I do think
they are mutual exclusive. You can't do
494
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.440
both. They don't happen to both. And the other thing I got from
495
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:07.320
you know, Julio the less going
in Colorado Springs several years ago. He
496
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.519
made the comment of you got to
know your team, not the team you
497
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.280
think you want them to be.
You got to know your team. Ask
498
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:17.599
these coaches. Do you know?
What is your goal for this team?
499
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:21.559
You know it's your goal. You
know there's there's a lot of people you
500
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:23.440
know in the club world that said, well, our goals to go to
501
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:29.159
national's and win a national championship.
Is like, realistically, what are your
502
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:34.280
chances of that happening? You know, you look southern California and every age
503
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.679
group there's a couple hundred teams and
two or three of them get to go
504
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.920
to national's and of them even less
have a chance of winning. What is
505
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:49.280
realistically your goal for that team?
If you're all here to win a national
506
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:53.440
championship, most of you are going
to fail. The majority of are going
507
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.639
to fail. So what is your
team? What is your goal for that
508
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.840
team that you can be successful at, that you can do for them.
509
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.360
And then one of those teach them
to love the game, teach them to
510
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.760
love play, teach them how to
be volleyball players, how to be athletes
511
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:12.119
as stuff. And you know,
if you land up, the lightning strikes
512
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.519
and you landed with that right mix
of genetic talent and those kids and everything,
513
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.320
and you can get to national as
you can winnership, fantastic, go
514
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.840
for that, but not you.
You know, ninety nine percent of the
515
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.920
coaches, the teams out there.
That's not a realistic expectation. It's not
516
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.679
a realistic goal. You got to, you know, find out what's what's
517
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.199
the goal for that team? What
is the best thing you can do for
518
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:37.840
that team? Teach those nine ten
girls to be the best teammates, the
519
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:43.679
best players they can win as many
games as they can what they're doing and
520
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:47.559
love each other and love playing the
game while they're doing it. You know,
521
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:52.079
and just in coaches have a hard
time with that. You know,
522
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:53.480
I see a lot of these high
school coaches. Man, we're going to
523
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.159
with state, we're going to win, stay, we're going to state.
524
00:46:55.320 --> 00:47:00.280
Is like, you know, okay, how many teams in your conference,
525
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:04.400
in your divisions, in your level
of state, are there? Realistically?
526
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.360
You know, why are you going
to sacrifice an entire season for a goal
527
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:14.760
that you really have almost no chance
of achieving you just don't have the players,
528
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.320
you don't have the the the school. You know, there's there's a
529
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:21.320
lot of like I said. You
know, I said before to just genetic
530
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:25.400
talent, that if you don't got
it, you can't teach it. You
531
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.679
know, I'm as much as I
love my five foot seven inch tall outside
532
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:35.559
hitters, I can't teach them to
play like they're six three. Yeah,
533
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.280
I and I, David. I'll
add one thing, well, two things
534
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:45.239
to that, one being that while
we're trying to teach these athletes to be
535
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.480
to love the game and to love
their teammates, we should also be teaching
536
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:53.119
them how to be amazing human beings. And if we're not, we've wasted
537
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:58.760
our time with them, we've wasted
their time with us. And too,
538
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:04.920
when these coaches are proclaiming their goals. I'm going to go to nationals,
539
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.599
we're going to win state, I
always say, okay, now, I
540
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.280
know your goal, but what's your
players goal like? I don't care what
541
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.199
you want. This should not be
about you. I want to know what
542
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:22.440
your players want. Does did the
twelve girls on your high school varsity team
543
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.840
really all want to go to go
and win state or do only three of
544
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:30.440
them, because if only three of
them want it, you're not going,
545
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:32.639
no matter how much you, as
the coach, won it. And that's
546
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:37.880
where, I don't know what something
you said they're made me really latch onto
547
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:43.599
that idea that we're recognize the fact
that that's where I see a lot of
548
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:51.039
coaches really use punishment is when their
goals and their players goals are different and
549
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.360
that leads to the frustration. You
know, the coach believes this team as
550
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:59.280
the ability to go to nationals,
but the players aren't living up to that
551
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.280
in their mind, in the coach
is mine. So then outcomes the frustration,
552
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:08.360
outcomes the reactionary coaching, and I
think if coaches can just do a
553
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:13.599
better job of sit it, sitting
back and not imposing their goals on the
554
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.320
players and letting the players lead it, there's going to be a lot less
555
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:21.760
frustration, there's going to be a
lot less of that triggering that brings out
556
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:27.280
that desire or that whatever to punish. Instead it's about, it really should
557
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.519
be about the kids and we're just
here to facilitate. We're not here to
558
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:36.760
do any more than that. Like
MOLESCO said, you've got to know your
559
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.760
team. Yeah, yeah, and
even with that, you know, I've
560
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:45.039
got I've got a situation like that. That's that, apart from the coaching
561
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:50.039
part, I have a couple of
guys who are really competitive want to compete
562
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:53.960
on a team that's predominantly guys would
just want to have fun and just want
563
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:58.519
to play and don't really want to, you know, work on on technique
564
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:05.760
as much and and you can see
the friction starting. And we actually had,
565
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:08.519
and this is this is a credit
to my my young assistant coach,
566
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:15.199
who's old beyond his years. He
mediated a discussion with them. I kind
567
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:19.000
of came in and said, here's
my goal, my goals. You three
568
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:21.599
guys, if you don't get along, we're going to have a problem for
569
00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:23.519
the rest of the season because it's
going to disrupt the team. You guys
570
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:27.280
got to figure this out. And
I said, and I'm leaving and I'm
571
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:32.159
letting him, I'm going let my
assistant mediate this because he's good at that.
572
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:39.039
And you know it. It's I'm
still there, the tension still there
573
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:45.239
and it'll probably stay there because they
do have goals that are different. But
574
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:52.440
I think at least now there at
the point where actually he said something to
575
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.880
them. We were in a really
tough match. My number one set or
576
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:59.440
was out out sick and we would
have you know, we really had a
577
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.480
good chance to beat the team we
want. We want lost in five and
578
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.280
they were all exhausted at the end. But as we got a little frustrated
579
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.320
towards the end, he just took
these two guys who were really struggling with
580
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.960
each other, and said you too, for the rest of this match have
581
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:16.239
to assume that the other guy does
not exist. Just play and and it
582
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:21.719
actually was was a pretty good piece
of advice at that time, because they
583
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:23.559
were getting into each other. It's
like, Nope, you just do your
584
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.440
thing and just ignore the other guy. Don't think about them, just play.
585
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:35.000
And that's tough because you don't have
control of it, other than bringing
586
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:39.039
things like mediating discussions and forcing the
issue a little bit to have them,
587
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.719
you know, at least talk it
through. If you got any clever ideas
588
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:49.559
over and above that, I'm all
ears. I'll give you a one.
589
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:54.360
I'll give you a resource, Mark
Bennett. It was a coaching educator in
590
00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:05.360
Europe. He had a recent podcast. It's on a rugby podcast and I'll
591
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.599
send you the link because mark mark
got it. He's he's a genius when
592
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:14.119
it comes to this kind of stuff
and he walked them through almost the exact
593
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:21.280
situation you're talking about about how to
take two or three stars, the superstars
594
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:25.280
of a team, whose motivation is
different, and how to how to bridge
595
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:31.360
the gap between them and the rest
of the team. And I thought it
596
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:36.840
was absolutely brilliant what he what he
suggested, and it was all led by
597
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.719
the kids. It was coach was
barely involved at all and just asking a
598
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:44.519
couple questions here and there. So
I'll send that to you as soon as
599
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:52.039
we're done. It was pretty awesome, fantastic. Thanks, Lauren, and
600
00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:59.679
I have to say to any young
you hope some of these coaches collaver.
601
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:09.039
It's we're here sort of sharing some
of our wid the mistakes we made when
602
00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:19.159
we were young and this this need
to have control. There's only as as
603
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:25.159
Cortis was talking about, I think
there's only a one percent that are going
604
00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:30.039
to make or three percent are going
to make it to the college drinks and
605
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:36.920
from ants and girls. That's a
girl, even lower boys. And because
606
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:42.119
of that, why do you coach? And you know, as you guys
607
00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.079
know, my loss of video any
parent or why I'm here in my air
608
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:52.639
is I'm here to develop amazingly leaders. Because of that, it doesn't talk
609
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:57.760
about winning and losing, because that's
out of my control and because of that
610
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:05.000
I'm going to do things that I
know making better humans. But we might
611
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:09.559
even, we might lose something.
And I was reflecting on when I coached
612
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:16.480
cody's team as a senior team.
They're all seniors and they wanted to go
613
00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:21.639
to prom the night before stay playoffs
and I said, as far as I'm
614
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:28.079
concerned, you guys, you know
prom this senior. Your promise a big
615
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.679
deal. Just be at the gym
by fifteen minutes earlier than usual so I
616
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.880
can make sure you're all there in
life is good and we can get ready
617
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:40.239
for the playoffs. And you know, I walked in and I been fifteen
618
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:46.679
in the morning and I had nine
guys in Txedo are had hadn't gotten another
619
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:53.840
textedos and then little locker room and
change and you know, when or lose
620
00:54:54.199 --> 00:55:00.480
doesn't matter. They had that chance
to have that experience and they could have
621
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:04.239
voted and said no, we're not
going to go to prom but they voted
622
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:06.639
and said we're going to go to
prom but we're going to be there on
623
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:12.039
time and you know, I it's
still one of my more delightful memorable moment
624
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:15.280
see all those kids in Txtedos at
some fifteen in the morning in the gym.
625
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:30.280
Just to lend a little bit more
to the why the punishment? and
626
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.239
John's been really good about pointing US
toward the medical profession over time, because
627
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:43.079
they doctors have to continue to study
in order to stay up on things and
628
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:51.920
and how they're treating people. Both
of these organizations have been against physical punishments
629
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:57.280
for for children for a long time, and at least fifteen years. It's
630
00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:05.280
the the American Academy of Pediatrics and
also probably an organization that Heidi is a
631
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:10.440
part of, the Society for Health
and physical educators. Shape is the is
632
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:17.320
the acronym. Both of those organized
are those organizations. The children's doctors and
633
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:27.320
the children's educators have told us that
punishment is a is a poor way and
634
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:32.719
maybe a detrimental way of working with
kids. Why is that not enough for
635
00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:37.280
coaches just reading that to what?
Why is that? Why is that not
636
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.679
enough for us to just say yeah, wow, or at least they dig
637
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:52.199
into the research a little bit.
I think it's because a lot of people
638
00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:00.719
believe that teenagers are not kids.
I think a lot of people think that
639
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:07.760
a high schooler could be treated differently
than an eight year old in this manner.
640
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:09.679
that. Yeah, sure, I
get it. I'm coaching in a
641
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:15.639
night a group of nine year olds
in volleyball. I mean it takes I
642
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.719
don't know, I can't even think
of anybody that I know, even coaches
643
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:23.440
that are like the most hardcore punishment
oriented coaches, I can't think of any
644
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:28.599
of them who would punish a group
of nine year olds the way they do
645
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:32.679
their older kids. And so we
you know, when I first heard that
646
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:40.440
those those statements by those two organizations, I recognize that. You know it,
647
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.519
what most people are going to equate
that with is younger kids. Four,
648
00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:51.679
five, six, seven, eight, nine year olds. And because
649
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:55.719
for some reason we there's not enough
coaches out there who really understand the developing
650
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:02.760
brain and that the brain is not
fully developed until we're in our early to
651
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:08.039
mid S, and so all these
things that are affecting the development of the
652
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.360
brain, that come out of punishment
are still able to affect the brain until
653
00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:21.039
we're in our mid late, early
to even late s in some cases.
654
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.320
And and so that's where I think, that's where the hurdle has been for
655
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:29.039
me, because I've cited that many
times with coaches. Hey, there's these
656
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:34.360
two professional organizations that are made up
of some pretty smart people who are saying
657
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:37.559
don't punish kids, don't use physical
punishments a way to enforce anything with kids.
658
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.760
And they're like, yeah, we
get that, but these aren't kids.
659
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:45.239
These are teenagers who are trying to
go to college play volleyball. They're
660
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:47.679
still kids there. They they might
not look like a kid, I mean
661
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:52.960
the six foot three sophomore in high
school who's got a beard is maybe doesn't
662
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:59.199
look like a kid to you,
but his brain is still developing and until
663
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:05.400
the brain is no longer developing and
is an adult brain, they are kids.
664
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:07.920
Doesn't matter. It's we're not talking
about their bodies, we're not talking
665
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:14.480
about pre or post puberty, we're
talking about the brain. That's what's affected
666
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:22.400
by these punishments, and that's where
I think a lot of people don't grasp
667
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.280
when it comes to hearing things like
the these organizations are against punishment, is
668
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:34.000
that they think it applies to little
kids and not really recognizing the fact that
669
00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:37.840
it applies. In my mind,
it applies to college athletes, to I
670
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.199
mean I I think if you're coach
in college, you shouldn't be punishing,
671
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:47.159
you shouldn't be using physical punishment because
you're still dealing with a maturing, developing
672
00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:57.400
brain. So that's that's my thought. You know, you asked about why
673
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.679
do we coaches? Why don't coaches
you know, read the studies, see
674
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:06.119
that stuff? I started coaching because, and I didn't know anything. I
675
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:07.440
was a punishing coach. Came out
there, you go do this and you
676
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.159
know, every time you feilt this, give me two push up, stuff
677
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:15.320
like that. And I did that
for four or five years until I ran
678
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.079
into this Kessel guy at a meeting. It pretty much in the politest way
679
01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:24.239
possible, told me to stop being
an idiot and pay attention, and until
680
01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:28.079
then it never occurred to me you
know, hey, let's go study.
681
01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:31.519
You know, I coached what I
knew or what I had seen, and
682
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:36.119
what that was is what I'd seen
on television, what I seen in movies,
683
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:38.480
what I'd seen at the couple of
the local volleyball games I went to
684
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:43.440
at the high school where the coaches
were yelling and screaming and punishing kids and
685
01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:45.960
stuff, and it's all I knew. I didn't know any better. I
686
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:50.159
didn't see anybody talking. You I
did, didn't you know? I didn't
687
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:52.679
decide, Oh, I'm a middle
school coach now I better go read a
688
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:54.400
whole bunch of stuff and learn how
to be a good coach. I went
689
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:57.800
out said I got to teach them
out a pass I want to pass and,
690
01:00:57.840 --> 01:00:59.760
you know, punish the crap out
of them until they do it I
691
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:02.519
tell him to do. And that, I think a lot of that is
692
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:07.679
getting coaches to understand that. You
know, there's this public perception to coach
693
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:12.800
is a lot of it's fostered by
television, by movie. Could you imagine
694
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:16.199
how interesting is of a Hollywood movie
going to be of some football coach who
695
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:20.119
talks to his players and ask them
what they're learning? And what did you
696
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:22.199
read on this? See? So
I got never yells, never makes anybody
697
01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:27.239
run sprints, never makes anybody carry
another kid on his back for a hundred
698
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:30.599
yards on his hands and knees and
stuff. You know, nobody's going to
699
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:32.920
want to watch that, nobody's going
to see it, but that's what we
700
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:36.840
see and there we goes. Well, look at this, it works.
701
01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:38.639
It's like, well, yeah,
because it's a movie, you know,
702
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:43.039
the guys are trying to Intu it's
also have a script they're reading and doing,
703
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:51.760
and in real life that stuff doesn't
really work that way. So or
704
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:57.920
is the movie? Nor does the
movie follow the kid after yeah, find
705
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:05.400
out the to find out the ramifications
of that kind of brutal coaching and find
706
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:09.519
out that when that kids dirty,
they're still suffering from trauma from that or
707
01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:15.280
they're treating other people that way and
then and then continuing the cycle of trauma
708
01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.440
for the rest of their lives.
You know, the movies don't stop.
709
01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:22.760
Don't follow that, and that's the
side of it. The people don't see.
710
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:30.119
So if we done enough in this
podcast and and hide you give us
711
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.440
to your thought in a second.
Here. I'm have we done enough if
712
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:40.920
we take this podcast and point it
towards somebody that's that's using punishment? Have
713
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:47.400
we done enough here or do we
need to do more? More, Hi,
714
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:52.119
do what were you going to say? Sorry, I could, I
715
01:02:52.159 --> 01:02:57.039
could go anywhere because relate to mention, because you've brought it up a couple
716
01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:00.239
times now. But the trauma and
I think something that we're looking at more
717
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:05.679
in the schools, as you know, like we're working on being at inform
718
01:03:05.760 --> 01:03:13.000
schools. So what you know,
we kind of comes to for and what
719
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:16.199
they're coming with, and I think
in the last few years that's just been
720
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.840
amplified even more with covid and distance
learning and it's kind of meetingum where they're
721
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:28.000
at. But I think a lot
of teaching and coaching kind of relies on
722
01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:31.599
this shaming model of we're going to
put them on the line in front of
723
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:37.079
their peers and if they miss,
they're going to run. But I think
724
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:40.119
it comes back to what I said
at the beginning is we're trying to shade
725
01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:45.239
behavior and it's like what does this
kid, what does this player, what
726
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:50.679
does this student need from me right
now, and what do we as coaches
727
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:52.960
have control over? So we're trying
to get them to all in love with
728
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:59.000
the game. If we want them
to get along with their peers, what
729
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:03.800
are we doing to develop that environment? What are we doing with our practice
730
01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:11.960
plan to meet them where they're act? If they have new defense, they
731
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:15.679
have a lot of new stuff to
learn and they're frustrated with it. What
732
01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:20.079
are what are we building in for
other activities, perspectives that are fun for
733
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:26.039
them, if they look forward to
are we giving them skills to be a
734
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:32.320
good teammate? I think it.
You know, like how can we keep
735
01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:39.280
I wanted to share this book and
I know Krch talked about it at one
736
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:46.559
of the being out the best in
people and I think for me as a
737
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:57.239
teacher, it's it's getting them close. So maybe they kid needs a freak.
738
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:04.320
In my environment and I have students
that throw stuff and I have to
739
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:11.880
find a way to teach them.
How can you get closer to what it
740
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:23.159
is you want to see? Always
go from throwing stuff fully participating in a
741
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:28.960
class? How, when they're making
steps towards those behaviors that you do want
742
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:36.639
to see, how can you get
it right? Hidi, PJ, is
743
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:42.559
brow real quick. You've got lean
to your right when you're speaking. I
744
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:45.519
think the microphone. Yeah, it's
for some reason. I think that works
745
01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:51.840
a little better, but anyways,
sorry to interrupt. I was just going
746
01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:57.519
to say that in answer your question, b j, have we done enough?
747
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:03.360
I don't think we can. We've
got six very unique people in this
748
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:10.440
podcast who actually challenge their beliefs in
the evidence in the in the presence of
749
01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:16.760
evidence. That is not normal,
unfortunately, in my experience in coaching or
750
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:23.639
in life, that when people are
presented with evidence that shows what they're doing
751
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:30.679
is wrong or destructive or not effective
or efficient, what do people typically do?
752
01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:33.679
They don't go, Oh, I'll
go read some more on it.
753
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:40.920
I didn't and John First, not
in person but through his blog, first
754
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:45.519
presented these ideas to me and I
read them. I fought it. I
755
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:53.960
fought it for years. So I
I think the answer isn't. Can we
756
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.280
provide enough information to convince people to
change? I don't think you get people
757
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:05.079
to change with information. Again,
something John is famous for saying as what's
758
01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:11.960
truer than true the story, and
I think that that is a big part
759
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:16.960
for this. We have to create
a narrative that allows for that, that
760
01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:21.840
elicits the change rather than tells people
they have to change. We have to
761
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:25.440
create a story and I don't know
how to do that. I'm not a
762
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:30.599
storytelling but I think that's what it
comes down to. Is We can't just
763
01:07:30.679 --> 01:07:33.760
go and put these studies in front
of people and say, look at this
764
01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:38.480
information and, based on this information, you should change what you're doing.
765
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:42.199
That's a really good way to make
sure that a lot of those people never
766
01:07:42.400 --> 01:07:47.480
read the information. I think we
have to make sure that we have to
767
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.960
find a different way and I again
I don't know what that is. I've
768
01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:57.559
struggled with it for ten years and
I don't know the answer. Only thing
769
01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:03.519
I know is that I can affect
one or two people in a year who
770
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:10.760
I meet or who I know who
are willing to listen into to do the
771
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:18.279
their own educate, to educate themselves, but there's hundreds that don't. So
772
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:23.439
I don't know what the right answer
there is, but I don't think it's
773
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.720
I think conversations like this are fun
for me and I think there are people
774
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.279
who are going to listen to this
conversation find interest in it, but I
775
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:32.960
think that they are those people who
listen to this conversation or probably already on
776
01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:39.960
the fence. Someone the people we
really need to change are not listening to
777
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:45.359
this conversation. So how do we
get them to listen to it? I
778
01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:49.600
love this storytelling aspect of it,
one because I study that a bit,
779
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:54.560
but also, you know, got
me to think if I was to tell
780
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:58.439
a story right now, I'd probably
tell a story like what happened with the
781
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:03.399
women's team in how cards has taken
a very different approach to building that team
782
01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:09.680
and defining roles and making it okay
to be that player who comes off the
783
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:14.720
bench for Energy and, you know, fills in when when that kids,
784
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:19.159
you know, not available to play
or injured or whatever. You know,
785
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:24.239
those kinds of stories, to your
point, Lauren, are going to resonate
786
01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:32.039
with people more than a lovely powerpoint
deck that walks through all of the science
787
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:39.600
behind this. So finding those stories
and telling those stories can be something we
788
01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:42.960
I think we do, but we
probably don't focus on enough and there might
789
01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:48.560
be an opportunity there. Yeah,
I mean you mentioned the fact that a
790
01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:51.680
lot of, I think David mentioned
at a lot of our current coaching practices
791
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:58.039
are derived from aspects of our culture. You know, what we see on
792
01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:02.159
TV, what we see, what
we read, what the person down the
793
01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:05.239
street, for me, does,
what I experience as I grew up.
794
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:11.079
How do we how do we change
coaches? We change those things. We
795
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:17.720
get a movie made about a coach
who is a who ask great questions and
796
01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:24.640
is calm the entire movie and gives
over the power of leadership to his players.
797
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:31.600
We get more stories like that told
in so that people can see them
798
01:10:31.640 --> 01:10:38.319
and give it, give it weight, you know, just as a reference
799
01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:41.840
to like the story idea. I
don't know if you've seen or read the
800
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:47.960
new book by Billy Allen, his
little mental strength book that he came out
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01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:53.680
with. It's a story of a
young girl learning how to joust. I
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01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:58.000
mean it's brilliant. He's a storyteller. That's that's what we need more of
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01:10:58.079 --> 01:11:03.680
in coaching is people who can take
a simple story and tell a profound message
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01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:09.800
through it that people are going to
Jive with, and I think that's what
805
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:14.560
this is. You know, the
more of that we can get, the
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01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:17.479
the more change will see. But
again, you don't get you don't get
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01:11:17.479 --> 01:11:21.359
people to change by giving them facts. I just don't think you do.
808
01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:26.840
I think you give them to change
by hitting them in the in the heart.
809
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:33.000
That's where we that's where we need
to focus more. I think we're
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01:11:33.039 --> 01:11:39.319
fifteen minutes past our hour. You
know, if anybody else says any last
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01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:44.000
profound thoughts that they want to give, but thank you all for coming on
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01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:48.800
and I'll leave it up to Steve
to guide us out, but please give
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01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:51.840
us your last thoughts if you have
something else that's on your mind about this
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01:11:51.880 --> 01:12:08.479
topic? Bueler, Bueler. Well, look, it's I appreciate it.
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01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:14.159
There's a lot of moving parts some
of our platform work today. We haven't
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01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:17.079
used zoom before, so thank you
for being our first experiment and actually we're
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01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:23.119
reasonably well to bring it into this
platform and we've been able to use both
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01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:27.359
to advantage and will do more of
this sort of thing. I'm John.
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01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:35.119
Hope you're feeling better and hope you're
enjoying your time down there and will do
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01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:40.119
more of these things if you have
topics that you want us to anybody here
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01:12:40.239 --> 01:12:45.960
or anybody listening. will put this
out in a podcast as well for people
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01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:49.640
who just like to listen to things, and we're kind of building this this
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01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:54.840
week go along. So every weeks
of work in progress and we made a
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01:12:54.840 --> 01:13:00.239
lot of progress this week. So
I hope you all have a good week
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01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:04.640
and we'll see the rest of you
viewers and people are listening to this next
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01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:14.880
week and thanks for being here.
Thank you. You see all. Thanks
827
01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:18.159
for listening and thanks to our guests
for joining us today. We're alive on
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01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:23.119
Youtube almost weekly on Sunday mornings in
the US. Check US out at the
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01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:28.159
coach Steve Youtube Channel. We post
links to our sessions on the volleyball coaches
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01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:34.399
and trainers facebook group as well.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME
