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This file was generated by Descript
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Louisa: Hello!
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And welcome to S G Squared.
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Pastor Steve Gladen pulls from over 25
years of small group ministry experience
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to encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
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So let's listen, and learn, together.
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Speaker 6: Welcome to SG Squared,
Steve Gladden on Small Groups.
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Derek here with Steve Gladden himself.
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Steve, can you believe we
are in September already?
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Speaker 7: Man, I tell you, fall is so
wonderful, especially when you're trying
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to escape the heat of Mississippi.
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Uh, but believe it or not, I'm
still in Orange County for a
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little bit, so it is, uhâ¦
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Let's, let's just focus on this.
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It's college football, and
that's all that matters.
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Speaker 6: That's right.
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The season is here, and, uh, for
nerds like you, you and I are
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college football nerds, it sure
makes the year a little bit more fun.
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Speaker 7: Yeah.
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We, we all-- we both come into it going,
"We made it through the off-season."
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And now that I'm living
in SEC country, oof, oof.
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It, it is another religion down here
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Speaker 6: Uh, uh, an Ohio State fan
living in the deep SEC territory.
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Yeah, that's kinda, that's gotta
be-- It's gotta get you a little
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nervous in, in the fall season.
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Speaker 7: Uh, but they love me so much.
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They love me so much
with all their banter.
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Speaker 6: And what's, uh,
with where you're at, what's
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their top team down there?
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Speaker 7: Well, there's, there's two
schools in Mississippi: Mississippi
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State and, uh, University of Mississippi,
uh, the old, uh, the, the Rebels.
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Ole Miss is the Rebels, and
Mississippi State is the Bulldogs.
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Those are the two that Jesus
ordained in Mississippi.
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Uh, but sometimes you get the
creep from LSU and Alabama and, you
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know, different things like that.
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Soâ¦
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Speaker 6: One other question
I gotta ask you, Steve.
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So being that you've spent, what?
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The last 25 years of your life in
Orange County, California, and you're
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now deep in the South, like, what's,
what's one big culture shock to you?
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Whether it's the weather, the food,
anything, just give us something.
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West Coast to the Deep South.
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Speaker 7: Uh, they, they love butter.
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Uh, that's, that's clear.
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Uh, humidity is a real thing.
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Uh, but you factor those two
things out and really, you know,
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you can eat healthy down there.
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Uh, it's not a big deal, soâ¦
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But, you know, I must confess,
there's some, some restaurants
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that, that cook it up really strong.
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But, you know, you get all
that past all that and there's,
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it's a lot of similar stuff.
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I tell you, Mississippi gets a bad rap.
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I mean, it's, uh, they need a better
PR person because it's really good.
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But I don't wanna hype it up too much
because I wanna buy a house down there
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first at a low price, and then, then,
you know, let the h- the prices rise
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because it is really the equivalent
of b- like moving to Nashville
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before Nashville became NashVegas.
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It's, uhâ¦
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You get the right, you know,
city officials in there and
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rebuilding, uh, Mississippi and
Jackson, it, it could take off.
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It's beautiful down there.
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Uh, just not in July,
August, and September.
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You factor out those months- ⦠then
it's Orange County all the
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way around, so it's beautiful.
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Speaker 6: Well, in this episode, now that
we are into the fall season, we're talking
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about attendance, metrics, and health.
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Um, and so is there any way you
wanna set this exciting new show up?
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Speaker 7: Yeah.
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I mean, it, it is something, you know,
being in groups for, you know, so many
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decades, I mean, I think I'm three and
a half decades into, you know, being
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entrenched in, you know, running groups.
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Uh, been leading small groups
longer than that, but, uh, you
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know, a personal small group.
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But, you know, the thing that I would
say is there's a couple things that I
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would, you know, as small group pastors
or the, the point person as we're heading
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into that, there's so often our identity
gets wrapped around, uh, you know, how
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many groups we have, you know, all the
numbers that you can play into that.
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And that's why we really wanted to
focus this, you know, this episode,
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you know, on attendance, metrics, and
health because they're slippery slopes.
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But there's a couple quotes I wanna
read you that have just impacted me,
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you know, this week, and it's ⦠One
of them is mystery, mystery.
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Geez, it's gonna be a long show.
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Sorry, Derek.
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"Ministry is what we leave
behind after you follow Jesus."
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So as you're talking about your small
group ministry, you know, uh, everything
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about that, and if I could re- rephrase
the quote as saying, "Small group
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ministry is what we leave behind after
you follow Jesus," is just realizing
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how important it is on your identity, on
the authority that Christ is giving you
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and the life you live, is to understand
that, you know, what you do in your
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personal life is really what's gonna help
in your small group ministry the best.
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And then the other quote right
there is, um, "What we believe
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about life after death determines
how we live life before death."
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And obviously the play on words
there is, you know, after death
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and before death that you're doing.
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But a lot of times, you know,
our priorities get stuck in the
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mundane of sometimes of church
life, and we need to separate it
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out of what's really important.
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And it really does set up the show
because, you know, when you talk about
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stats and metrics and all that, your
identity can quickly float into that,
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and who you are can be sabotaged by that.
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And then the whole point of, you
know, you get caught up in the grind
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of church ministry, and sometimes
you forget what you're living for.
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And that's where I'd like to set this
up, is by saying, you know, when I
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travel, and trust me, I've almost got
2 million miles in the air, but when I
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travel, the last thing that comes into
the pilots and the cockpit is a manifest.
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And on that manifest, it'll
always say the number of souls
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that are aboard that plane.
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And if your airline is concerned with
knowing the number of souls, how much
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more we should be concerned about
the number of souls that we have?
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Now, that starts the slippery slope,
because all of a sudden when you go to
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the numbers of souls, you can be very
caught up in the whole numbers game.
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And it's, it's a little bit dicey, but
it's important for you to understand
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that you're in the soul business, and
how you take care of those souls is
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what, you know, Jesus is gonna look
at you at, at the end of time saying,
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"What did you do with what I gave you?"
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And understand what the, what you've
been given, but hold that in the balance
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of not only how you live about managing
those souls, but also making sure that in
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your own life, your own soul is protected
and that you're taken care of in this.
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So as we dive into this, Derek, I know
you got a ton of questions, but as we dive
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into this, it's gonna be really important
that you kinda look through this setup
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of understanding that your small group
ministry that you leave behind is after
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you follow Jesus and looking at your own
personal soul care, and then understanding
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what you believe about life after death
determines how you live life before death.
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And, uh, it's just gonna be super
important that you understand we are in
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the soul business, and don't forget that
as we talk through all these little things
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about attendance and metrics and numbers.
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Speaker 6: Great reminder there.
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So as we're starting out fall here-
Mm-hmm ⦠and as small group ministry
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leaders are thinking about numbers and
growing their small group ministry,
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when we're, um, thinking about these
numbers, what are we exactly looking for?
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Speaker 7: Well, I, I think that
the, the first thing is, um,
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it's important they understand
that numbers aren't a bad thing.
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Uh, I, I would get this all the time at
Saddleback is like, you know, numbers,
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numbers, numbers, all you think about is
numbers and, you know, things like that.
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And, and what I would look back on
is saying that, you know, it'sâ¦
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numbers aren't a bad thing.
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Matter of fact, in the Old Testament,
there's a book called Numbers.
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And so, you know, God was pretty concerned
about numbers and souls and everything
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like that, and we understand that, you
know, every, every number is connected to
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a soul that's connected to a story that,
you know, we need to figure out and know.
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But I know sometimes people would
also come to me when we were talking
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about, you know, you know, what's
the attendance and what, what are
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the metrics we're looking for?
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At theâ¦
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a lot of times that people would say
to us is, you know, "Well, we don't
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care about the quantity, we care
about the quality of the people."
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And what I would say is that as you're
listening through this episode, they
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don't have to be enemies of each other.
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Uh, I mean, I have two kids, and let's
just suppose we went on a camping
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trip, and let's just suppose that
up in Northern California, somebody
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misplaced both children for a little bit.
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And so let's suppose that that
somebody was me, just, just,
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you know, for story's sake.
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And, uh, Lisa and I go looking for both
kids, and we come back with just one kid.
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We don't go, "Well, that was the
quality kid, so we can go home."
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You know, quality and quantity
mattered in this little story.
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And in the same way, what I would
say is that what I would love for you
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to understand and get in this whole
episode, and it's been a long lesson
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learned for me, is that you have to
focus on both, both quality and quantity.
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And that's where your numbers and
metrics can really play an important
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part of how you can take care of all
the souls that the Lord is giving you,
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but also at the same time understand
that there is a quality factor that
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you've gotta play into this equation.
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Speaker 6: So if numbers aren't
bad then, uh, then what, what then
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are we specifically looking for?
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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, good
question on that, that side.
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Um, one of the things that you
gotta look at for numbers, uh, which
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obviously I don't think they're
bad, is that they are indicators.
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And for those of you that are like metric
nerds, there's lead and lag indicators
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that if you don't know what I'm talking
about, you can dive into that and just
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put that in your search engine and, and
learn about that, and it'll help you
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start to get some, uh, some trending
pieces in your small group ministry.
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But on the more, uh, starting in the
more foundational side of it, is that
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you've gotta use data as your friend.
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When I'm doing conferences, I always
say, I, I mean, I know that Jesus is
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Lord, but one of the important things
that you have to understand is that
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in the small group ministry world, uh,
data is lord, small L, not the large L.
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And, uh, in that, you gotta understand
that data is your friend, but at
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the same time, you've gotta start
looking at and asking what, what
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is it that you're looking for?
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I mean, when you're getting data,
what, what is it that you're,
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uh, trying to find and look for?
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Speaker 6: Well said.
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So data is lord, little L.
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I love
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Speaker 7: that Data, little L
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Speaker 6: Data is lord.
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So if numbers aren't bad and we're looking
at the data, then when we're looking
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at the data, what are we looking for?
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What would we ask for to see in the data?
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Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think this
is the, the great point where you as a
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small group point person, I would really
push this to you, and I can give you
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my experiences of what, what I've had.
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But I know a lot of times that we,
we look for stuff i- in big church,
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you know, it's, it's like how many
butts are in the seat and how many
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nickels are thrown in the plate.
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And sometimes we think that that
is, you know, the end-all be-all.
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But as we saw through COVID, uh, that
wasn't the end-all be-all because it
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really shook up the, the church and
really polarized the church in a way that
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it's never been pol- polarized before.
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And so, uh, a- as you're looking at
this, I would go back to what our premise
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is, and that is about discipleship.
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And when you're looking at discipleship,
I would ask myself if I was, if I was
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looking for data, I would say, what
gets us towards that end in mind or
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what gets us towards being a disciple?
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And it kind of begs the question is, what
is success for your small group leader?
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Because if discipleship is the name of
the game, and I really hope that is, and
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I know in a lot of small group strategies
you can go after a connection strategy
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or a discipleship strategy, and again,
this is the quality and quantity piece.
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I think both are super important,
but sometimes we leave it at the
00:13:25.797 --> 00:13:27.917
doorstep of one or the other.
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A lot of times in the connection strategy,
you're just trying to get as many people
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connected in a group, and that's your
metric for, hey, hey, you know, the,
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the small group ministry is doing well.
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And unfortunately, a lot of
churches look at that like they
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look at their weekend attendance.
00:13:43.177 --> 00:13:47.977
But at the same time too, if you go to
the polar opposite side and go strong
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discipleship, it is really about how
many books you read, how many, how
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many practices you're doing in that.
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And what I would do is look for
a blend of the two of figuring
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out what is discipleship.
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And since I've been, uh, you know, down at
Pine Lake, it's, in Mississippi, is really
00:14:05.847 --> 00:14:08.907
working towards what is that end disciple.
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And, uh, you know, they're really honing
in on those attributes of what are success
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Maybe in the next episode I'll have a
better lock on that after I get back from
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a, a lead retreat we're doing together.
00:14:22.733 --> 00:14:26.773
But it, it looks like it's focusing
on, you know, some, some qualities
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that we can put our handles on.
00:14:28.913 --> 00:14:35.283
And so when you're asking what do you
ask, ask for in intent in, in small group
00:14:35.283 --> 00:14:41.353
life, I would say ask for the things that
help you measure discipleship happening.
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And that, that for us is talking
more about an individual health
00:14:46.343 --> 00:14:50.503
assessment and a group assessment,
which is what we did at Saddleback.
00:14:50.593 --> 00:14:56.063
It helps us get the quality and the
quantity that, that is happening
00:14:56.063 --> 00:14:57.523
in there that we're looking for.
00:14:58.003 --> 00:15:04.123
And so we would, you know, go more
towards looking at what the individual,
00:15:04.133 --> 00:15:10.883
how healthy they are and the, uh,
group, how healthy it is, and they're
00:15:10.893 --> 00:15:14.493
mirrors of each other so that you
wanna be able to work on that.
00:15:15.003 --> 00:15:20.233
And so what I would say is look for
what helps you measure discipleship.
00:15:20.253 --> 00:15:24.243
And a lot of times we're stuck in
our small group ministry of just
00:15:24.253 --> 00:15:28.943
measuring attendance, and measuring
attendance is the end all be all.
00:15:29.093 --> 00:15:32.603
But have to ask yourself the
question, does attendance give
00:15:32.603 --> 00:15:34.223
you the health you're looking for?
00:15:34.223 --> 00:15:37.393
And so you may wanna look at what
kind of data you're collecting
00:15:38.803 --> 00:15:39.353
Speaker 6: I like that.
00:15:39.353 --> 00:15:42.233
Does attendance give you the
health you're looking for?
00:15:43.253 --> 00:15:47.903
Now we know a lot of our listeners,
uh, take attendance, right?
00:15:48.393 --> 00:15:52.223
Uh, so talk to us about
the attendance topic.
00:15:52.223 --> 00:15:54.323
Is taking attendance bad?
00:15:55.293 --> 00:15:57.743
Speaker 7: Well, a-and again, I
wouldn't say it's a, it's a good or bad.
00:15:57.743 --> 00:16:00.673
It's an indicator, uh, of that.
00:16:00.693 --> 00:16:05.253
But again, it, it dives much
deeper than butts in the seats.
00:16:05.723 --> 00:16:11.393
Uh, I look at my own small group and
there's sometimes where, uh, we're not
00:16:11.393 --> 00:16:16.433
meeting or not everybody is there or is
present, but it's how well you're taking
00:16:16.433 --> 00:16:21.613
care of them and how well you're helping
them understand what discipleship is.
00:16:22.103 --> 00:16:25.963
And so it can be a leading
indicator of do, will you have
00:16:25.963 --> 00:16:27.803
the opportunity to do that?
00:16:28.183 --> 00:16:30.333
But it doesn't necessarily
mean it's gonna happen.
00:16:30.923 --> 00:16:37.323
And it goes back to the, uh, added,
added piece of saying, uh, health, if
00:16:37.323 --> 00:16:42.833
your, your metrics of discipleship are
on health indicators, health will get you
00:16:42.833 --> 00:16:45.173
the growth you're looking for, or i.e.
00:16:45.183 --> 00:16:46.163
the attendance.
00:16:46.773 --> 00:16:49.573
But attendance won't
necessarily give you health.
00:16:49.923 --> 00:16:53.613
It's just like for myself, if I
go to church every Sunday, but I'm
00:16:53.613 --> 00:16:57.643
still partying all the time, I mean,
my attendance record looks great
00:16:57.643 --> 00:17:01.673
and I'll get the gold star for, you
know, going 52 weeks out of the year.
00:17:02.263 --> 00:17:05.373
But if I'm rotten on the
inside, then that's a problem.
00:17:05.823 --> 00:17:10.393
And in the same way in small groups,
sometimes attendance can give you a false
00:17:10.443 --> 00:17:16.503
indicator w- or what we call a false
positive of saying, "Oh, they come all the
00:17:16.513 --> 00:17:19.013
time, so they must be getting healthy."
00:17:19.333 --> 00:17:24.823
And what I would say is you'd wanna take
that one step deeper, which is why we, we
00:17:24.823 --> 00:17:30.453
are working on more of a health assessment
and a group health assessment to be
00:17:30.453 --> 00:17:36.623
able to get us to those places so that,
you know, we can also know what of our,
00:17:36.633 --> 00:17:38.893
what are some of our leading indicators.
00:17:39.463 --> 00:17:42.663
But personally, I wouldn't
die on the hill of attendance.
00:17:43.013 --> 00:17:47.223
I would die on a, more on how many
health assessments are out there
00:17:47.223 --> 00:17:50.333
for the individual and how many
group assessments are out there.
00:17:52.669 --> 00:17:53.329
Speaker 6: Well said.
00:17:53.329 --> 00:17:57.009
So you've mentioned, uh, health
assessment several times now.
00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.259
So let's dive a little deeper into that.
00:18:00.049 --> 00:18:04.809
Uh, you know, for those who might be new
to leading small group ministry, uh, when
00:18:04.809 --> 00:18:10.409
it comes to health, um, can you kind of
explain the health assessment that you
00:18:10.409 --> 00:18:12.619
refer to that you built on discipleship?
00:18:13.419 --> 00:18:13.829
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:18:14.419 --> 00:18:18.209
Um, you know, at Saddleback, you
know, we had a health assessment
00:18:18.209 --> 00:18:21.609
and a group assessment that were
very enlightening to the groups.
00:18:22.129 --> 00:18:28.819
And again, I would preface this by, uh,
you, you can do your best at, at getting
00:18:28.909 --> 00:18:33.269
things to your group, but it's gonna be
up to them to take some ownership in it.
00:18:34.149 --> 00:18:35.329
It's kinda like with your kids.
00:18:35.329 --> 00:18:38.899
You raise your kids as best as possible,
giving them the tools, giving them
00:18:38.899 --> 00:18:45.939
the environment, giving them the, the
opportunity and the foundation to be
00:18:45.939 --> 00:18:47.649
the children that you want them to be.
00:18:48.189 --> 00:18:51.209
Uh, but it's up to them to kinda
take it and make it their own.
00:18:51.649 --> 00:18:55.479
And in the same way, I'll preface this by
saying with the small group, we'll give
00:18:55.479 --> 00:18:59.559
them the tools and the resources and the
curriculum pathway and all those things
00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:05.875
that will help them be healthy spiritually
is where the church is going, but we have
00:19:05.875 --> 00:19:09.715
to be able to, uh, they have to take some
ownership in it, and sometimes that's
00:19:09.725 --> 00:19:11.395
training and helping them move in it.
00:19:12.065 --> 00:19:17.415
But again, for us, where I, I would
say at Saddleback where we were and
00:19:17.415 --> 00:19:21.625
what I'm building at Pine Lake, looking
very different but very similar in some
00:19:21.625 --> 00:19:28.085
regards, is that in, um, at Saddleback,
you know, it was, you know, m- measuring
00:19:28.085 --> 00:19:30.785
off the five verbs of the Great
Commission and the Great Commandment.
00:19:31.605 --> 00:19:36.745
And in, in some ways at Pine Lake,
it's measuring off different indicators
00:19:36.765 --> 00:19:41.885
also found in the Great Commission,
Great Commandment in Acts 2, uh,
00:19:41.915 --> 00:19:44.025
but being able to see these metrics.
00:19:44.055 --> 00:19:45.725
But here, here's the gist of it.
00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:51.005
Whatever you're defining or however
you're defining a, a disciple, you
00:19:51.005 --> 00:19:54.935
gotta ask yourself the question:
what are the attributes that
00:19:54.935 --> 00:19:57.285
you're trying to assess in people?
00:19:58.065 --> 00:20:01.185
And then in your individual health
assessment, what you're trying
00:20:01.185 --> 00:20:05.945
to do is have questions that
make them wrestle through those
00:20:05.985 --> 00:20:07.595
attributes that you're wanting.
00:20:08.045 --> 00:20:11.765
So for at Saddleback, it was on
worship, on fellowship, on discipleship,
00:20:11.765 --> 00:20:13.905
on serving, and evangelism.
00:20:14.645 --> 00:20:19.215
So for us, because I spent, you know,
almost 30 years all, all by itself,
00:20:19.215 --> 00:20:23.495
you know, working with that, I'll kinda
default to that a little bit as I'm still
00:20:23.495 --> 00:20:27.335
playing around and we're still trying
to work as a team to define Pine Lake's.
00:20:28.205 --> 00:20:31.465
But in that regard, we would say,
you know, what are the attributes
00:20:31.465 --> 00:20:36.655
of worship that would reflect
people engaging in those activities?
00:20:37.195 --> 00:20:38.805
And then the same thing in fellowship.
00:20:38.815 --> 00:20:44.075
What is authentic community, and how
are people engaging in those activities?
00:20:44.465 --> 00:20:49.995
In discipleship, we were looking for what
are the, what are the next steps that
00:20:49.995 --> 00:20:54.345
our people are taking, and how are they
engaging people to help them grow in that?
00:20:54.695 --> 00:20:58.095
In the area of serving, it was
more about how are you serving?
00:20:58.095 --> 00:20:59.555
How is your group serving?
00:20:59.575 --> 00:21:03.337
And so there's, you know, health
assessments with that And then in
00:21:03.337 --> 00:21:07.567
the, uh, area of, uh, evangelism,
how are you engaging in personal,
00:21:07.567 --> 00:21:09.507
local, and global evangelism?
00:21:10.027 --> 00:21:14.137
So in the individual assessment,
you're asking questions, but you're not
00:21:14.137 --> 00:21:16.017
asking questions just to ask questions.
00:21:16.017 --> 00:21:21.157
You're asking questions to be able to
give them a pathway to build a planner.
00:21:21.557 --> 00:21:25.177
And in the planner, you're trying
to find out, okay, which attribute
00:21:25.177 --> 00:21:26.477
are you trying to work on?
00:21:26.927 --> 00:21:31.157
Then what's a goal, 30-day goal
that you wanna do to work on that?
00:21:31.527 --> 00:21:34.547
And then who's gonna partner with
you to make sure you get there?
00:21:35.297 --> 00:21:39.427
And one of the things that this
does is helps you learn more about
00:21:39.887 --> 00:21:44.447
is mentoring a one-person thing,
one, one person has all the answers,
00:21:44.767 --> 00:21:46.917
or is mentoring multiple things.
00:21:46.917 --> 00:21:51.467
And what I found in the area of
partnership is they're selecting mentors
00:21:51.467 --> 00:21:53.737
that will help them in a specific area.
00:21:54.397 --> 00:21:59.547
So the bottom line is, is in the
individual health assessment, you're
00:21:59.547 --> 00:22:03.177
finding out where you're strong
and where your growth areas are.
00:22:03.657 --> 00:22:08.667
And coming out of that, you want them to
figure out, you know, what's a, what's a
00:22:08.677 --> 00:22:14.637
step where I can help somebody out, and
what's a, an area that I need to grow in?
00:22:14.757 --> 00:22:17.807
So you're trying to find, you know,
how do I help, and how do I grow
00:22:18.347 --> 00:22:19.847
coming out of the health assessment?
00:22:19.847 --> 00:22:23.207
It's a great indicator across the
church if everyone's u- using it.
00:22:23.607 --> 00:22:27.477
Fun fact, uh, in the early days of
Saddleback when we were rolling this
00:22:27.477 --> 00:22:32.267
out, when we had about almost, uh, I
think it was 17,000 or 18,000 health
00:22:32.267 --> 00:22:37.977
assessments done, it was interesting
that over 85% of the people self-declared
00:22:37.977 --> 00:22:40.447
themselves weak in the area of evangelism.
00:22:41.287 --> 00:22:42.757
So what do we need to work on?
00:22:43.047 --> 00:22:44.767
Well, evangelism in that case.
00:22:44.777 --> 00:22:46.477
So that's the individual
health assessment.
00:22:46.947 --> 00:22:48.697
The group assessment mirrors it.
00:22:49.117 --> 00:22:52.667
It's a shorter assessment, whereas
the individual health as- health
00:22:52.677 --> 00:22:54.427
assessment was 35 questions.
00:22:54.997 --> 00:22:57.557
The group assessment was
only 10 questions, but
00:22:57.557 --> 00:22:59.637
reflecting on the same area.
00:22:59.637 --> 00:23:04.617
Two questions that were on the area
of, uh, worship, on the area of
00:23:04.627 --> 00:23:10.041
fellowship, discipleship, uh, serving
in evangelism And so what that would
00:23:10.041 --> 00:23:15.071
do is when the whole group takes it,
it helps you understand, you know,
00:23:15.071 --> 00:23:18.021
where the group is deficient and
where, what they need to work on.
00:23:18.081 --> 00:23:21.401
And so when you're done taking
the group assessment, what you
00:23:21.401 --> 00:23:25.681
do is you have a three-part
follow-through as the group leader.
00:23:25.681 --> 00:23:31.351
One is, who is strong in, in those areas
that can help your group grow in the area?
00:23:31.781 --> 00:23:35.341
And then what's a curriculum
that we could possibly do that
00:23:35.341 --> 00:23:36.641
would strengthen us in that?
00:23:36.891 --> 00:23:38.751
And then what's an activity we could do?
00:23:39.221 --> 00:23:41.061
And so you're giving the group steps.
00:23:41.061 --> 00:23:46.301
And my, my point with both of these is
that if you wanna go into s- uh, the book
00:23:46.301 --> 00:23:50.951
"Small Groups with Purpose," chapter 10,
uh, or if you have "Leading Small Groups
00:23:50.951 --> 00:23:54.681
with Purpose," I think it's chapter
three, you can learn more about the health
00:23:54.681 --> 00:23:56.321
assessment and the group assessment.
00:23:56.781 --> 00:23:57.901
That'll take it much deeper.
00:23:57.901 --> 00:24:04.561
But the point is, is that I would
much rather measure health than
00:24:04.561 --> 00:24:07.041
I would wanna measure attendance.
00:24:07.531 --> 00:24:11.141
Not that one is worse than the
other or better than the other,
00:24:11.491 --> 00:24:13.781
but that they can work in tandem.
00:24:14.181 --> 00:24:18.421
But instead of weekly trying to get
attendance, what I'd rather the group
00:24:18.421 --> 00:24:22.821
leader spend their time working on is,
has everyone taken a health assessment,
00:24:22.831 --> 00:24:24.611
which we'd end up doing once a year?
00:24:25.041 --> 00:24:29.451
And is the group assessment, which
we would do twice a year, being
00:24:29.451 --> 00:24:31.601
able to engage them in those areas?
00:24:31.601 --> 00:24:33.201
So there's a lot on that.
00:24:33.561 --> 00:24:36.911
You can always ping me at
steve@smallgroupnetwork.com
00:24:36.911 --> 00:24:38.141
if you have more questions.
00:24:38.531 --> 00:24:41.901
But the point that I'm trying to share
with you is that when you're looking
00:24:41.901 --> 00:24:46.911
at attendance and metrics and health,
it's gonna be really, really important
00:24:46.911 --> 00:24:51.711
that your soul is set strong, but
that you have the tools in place to
00:24:51.711 --> 00:24:53.201
make sure you can make this happen.
00:24:53.241 --> 00:24:57.765
So Not sure if that made sense,
Derek, but that'll teach you
00:24:57.765 --> 00:24:58.665
for asking that question.
00:25:00.485 --> 00:25:01.265
Speaker 6: That was great.
00:25:01.315 --> 00:25:06.565
Um, you had mentioned two of your books
and key chapters that have diagrams
00:25:06.565 --> 00:25:10.225
and basically everything they're
looking for when it comes to the health
00:25:10.225 --> 00:25:12.155
assessment and the group assessment.
00:25:12.945 --> 00:25:14.225
Where can they get your books?
00:25:15.135 --> 00:25:15.425
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:25:15.425 --> 00:25:18.985
Obviously, uh, Amazon's gonna be your
b- be your best way to get it, and
00:25:19.025 --> 00:25:22.345
it's "Small Groups with Purpose" and
"Leading Small Groups with Purpose."
00:25:22.985 --> 00:25:26.315
But if you happen to be in the Small
Group Network and you're All Access
00:25:26.315 --> 00:25:30.795
member, if you're an All Access member,
you can actually get the, the physical
00:25:30.805 --> 00:25:35.355
copies of, of those that are in the
book, but ones that you could play around
00:25:35.355 --> 00:25:38.985
with and modify them to work for you.
00:25:38.985 --> 00:25:41.655
So you actually get it in
a couple different places.
00:25:42.835 --> 00:25:43.285
Speaker 6: Cool.
00:25:43.355 --> 00:25:46.735
And, um, remind me how people
can become an All Access, uh,
00:25:46.735 --> 00:25:47.965
Small Group Network member.
00:25:48.325 --> 00:25:48.465
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:25:48.465 --> 00:25:50.425
If you go on smallgroupnetwork.com,
00:25:50.505 --> 00:25:52.555
uh, it's a great way for you to getâ¦
00:25:52.575 --> 00:25:55.895
There's so many things that are
happening in the Small Group Network now.
00:25:56.335 --> 00:26:00.465
Uh, in the fall, we're-- this fall,
uh, coming up in October, we're
00:26:00.465 --> 00:26:02.875
launching our weekly coaching calls too.
00:26:03.315 --> 00:26:07.825
Uh, if you're an All Access member, it's
just one of the many benefits of being
00:26:07.825 --> 00:26:11.435
a member of All Access that you can get,
and you can be a part of that weekly
00:26:11.465 --> 00:26:13.675
coaching call that can help you out.
00:26:14.225 --> 00:26:16.685
But if you go on, uh,
smallgroupnetwork.com,
00:26:16.705 --> 00:26:21.305
there's all kinds of information about
becoming All Access and the, and the
00:26:21.305 --> 00:26:25.145
things that will help you kinda get
that and, uh, take it to that next step.
00:26:27.115 --> 00:26:28.165
Speaker 6: Very cool.
00:26:28.185 --> 00:26:35.415
Well, that is our first show of the fall
season here on attendance, metrics, and
00:26:35.425 --> 00:26:41.065
health, and we really hope this, uh,
inspires everybody, encourages you, equips
00:26:41.075 --> 00:26:43.035
you to lead better, healthier groups.
00:26:43.715 --> 00:26:47.155
And, uh, Steve, unless you have any other
final thoughts, we'll, uh, sign off here.
00:26:47.735 --> 00:26:48.015
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:26:48.015 --> 00:26:51.855
Just, uh, you know, I would just
w- say, what are those attributes
00:26:51.855 --> 00:26:53.945
that are great for discipleship?
00:26:53.985 --> 00:26:56.755
Work through with that with
your church leadership, and then
00:26:56.765 --> 00:26:58.205
build everything behind that.
00:26:59.595 --> 00:27:00.305
Speaker 6: Sounds good.
00:27:00.665 --> 00:27:03.715
Thanks for, uh, listening, everybody,
and we will see you next time.
00:27:04.715 --> 00:27:05.535
Speaker 7: God bless, everybody.
00:27:07.678 --> 00:27:08.668
Louisa: Thank you for listening!
00:27:09.158 --> 00:27:12.368
And don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:27:13.078 --> 00:27:16.638
If you'd like to go deeper and get
more resources or join the small
00:27:16.638 --> 00:27:20.268
group network, just head over
to small group network dot com.
00:27:20.808 --> 00:27:21.758
We'll see you next time!
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:02.433 --> 00:00:02.863
Louisa: Hello!
00:00:02.863 --> 00:00:04.513
And welcome to S G Squared.
00:00:05.043 --> 00:00:09.673
Pastor Steve Gladen pulls from over 25
years of small group ministry experience
00:00:09.993 --> 00:00:13.643
to encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
00:00:14.343 --> 00:00:16.343
So let's listen, and learn, together.
00:00:19.163 --> 00:00:23.123
Speaker 6: Welcome to SG Squared,
Steve Gladden on Small Groups.
00:00:23.433 --> 00:00:26.343
Derek here with Steve Gladden himself.
00:00:26.343 --> 00:00:29.123
Steve, can you believe we
are in September already?
00:00:30.143 --> 00:00:34.773
Speaker 7: Man, I tell you, fall is so
wonderful, especially when you're trying
00:00:34.773 --> 00:00:36.993
to escape the heat of Mississippi.
00:00:37.313 --> 00:00:39.853
Uh, but believe it or not, I'm
still in Orange County for a
00:00:39.853 --> 00:00:42.423
little bit, so it is, uhâ¦
00:00:42.873 --> 00:00:44.243
Let's, let's just focus on this.
00:00:44.503 --> 00:00:47.173
It's college football, and
that's all that matters.
00:00:48.313 --> 00:00:49.203
Speaker 6: That's right.
00:00:49.503 --> 00:00:54.783
The season is here, and, uh, for
nerds like you, you and I are
00:00:54.823 --> 00:00:59.103
college football nerds, it sure
makes the year a little bit more fun.
00:00:59.743 --> 00:01:00.023
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:01:00.023 --> 00:01:03.473
We, we all-- we both come into it going,
"We made it through the off-season."
00:01:04.193 --> 00:01:07.693
And now that I'm living
in SEC country, oof, oof.
00:01:10.423 --> 00:01:12.383
It, it is another religion down here
00:01:14.067 --> 00:01:19.317
Speaker 6: Uh, uh, an Ohio State fan
living in the deep SEC territory.
00:01:19.317 --> 00:01:21.977
Yeah, that's kinda, that's gotta
be-- It's gotta get you a little
00:01:21.977 --> 00:01:23.757
nervous in, in the fall season.
00:01:24.237 --> 00:01:25.877
Speaker 7: Uh, but they love me so much.
00:01:25.937 --> 00:01:27.877
They love me so much
with all their banter.
00:01:29.127 --> 00:01:31.037
Speaker 6: And what's, uh,
with where you're at, what's
00:01:31.037 --> 00:01:32.347
their top team down there?
00:01:32.867 --> 00:01:36.117
Speaker 7: Well, there's, there's two
schools in Mississippi: Mississippi
00:01:36.117 --> 00:01:42.347
State and, uh, University of Mississippi,
uh, the old, uh, the, the Rebels.
00:01:42.577 --> 00:01:46.717
Ole Miss is the Rebels, and
Mississippi State is the Bulldogs.
00:01:46.747 --> 00:01:49.847
Those are the two that Jesus
ordained in Mississippi.
00:01:50.517 --> 00:01:56.167
Uh, but sometimes you get the
creep from LSU and Alabama and, you
00:01:56.167 --> 00:01:57.477
know, different things like that.
00:01:57.477 --> 00:01:57.807
Soâ¦
00:01:58.787 --> 00:02:00.677
Speaker 6: One other question
I gotta ask you, Steve.
00:02:00.677 --> 00:02:03.197
So being that you've spent, what?
00:02:03.207 --> 00:02:08.117
The last 25 years of your life in
Orange County, California, and you're
00:02:08.117 --> 00:02:16.477
now deep in the South, like, what's,
what's one big culture shock to you?
00:02:17.237 --> 00:02:20.067
Whether it's the weather, the food,
anything, just give us something.
00:02:20.487 --> 00:02:22.077
West Coast to the Deep South.
00:02:22.687 --> 00:02:24.597
Speaker 7: Uh, they, they love butter.
00:02:25.057 --> 00:02:26.597
Uh, that's, that's clear.
00:02:27.437 --> 00:02:30.047
Uh, humidity is a real thing.
00:02:30.737 --> 00:02:33.847
Uh, but you factor those two
things out and really, you know,
00:02:33.847 --> 00:02:35.347
you can eat healthy down there.
00:02:35.417 --> 00:02:37.037
Uh, it's not a big deal, soâ¦
00:02:37.037 --> 00:02:40.317
But, you know, I must confess,
there's some, some restaurants
00:02:40.317 --> 00:02:42.597
that, that cook it up really strong.
00:02:43.197 --> 00:02:46.497
But, you know, you get all
that past all that and there's,
00:02:46.567 --> 00:02:48.067
it's a lot of similar stuff.
00:02:48.067 --> 00:02:50.027
I tell you, Mississippi gets a bad rap.
00:02:50.147 --> 00:02:54.547
I mean, it's, uh, they need a better
PR person because it's really good.
00:02:54.547 --> 00:02:57.807
But I don't wanna hype it up too much
because I wanna buy a house down there
00:02:57.807 --> 00:03:02.317
first at a low price, and then, then,
you know, let the h- the prices rise
00:03:02.337 --> 00:03:07.107
because it is really the equivalent
of b- like moving to Nashville
00:03:07.127 --> 00:03:09.637
before Nashville became NashVegas.
00:03:09.727 --> 00:03:10.397
It's, uhâ¦
00:03:11.297 --> 00:03:15.067
You get the right, you know,
city officials in there and
00:03:15.077 --> 00:03:19.007
rebuilding, uh, Mississippi and
Jackson, it, it could take off.
00:03:19.047 --> 00:03:20.507
It's beautiful down there.
00:03:21.287 --> 00:03:23.787
Uh, just not in July,
August, and September.
00:03:23.787 --> 00:03:27.557
You factor out those months- ⦠then
it's Orange County all the
00:03:27.557 --> 00:03:29.027
way around, so it's beautiful.
00:03:30.801 --> 00:03:34.841
Speaker 6: Well, in this episode, now that
we are into the fall season, we're talking
00:03:34.841 --> 00:03:38.541
about attendance, metrics, and health.
00:03:39.281 --> 00:03:43.081
Um, and so is there any way you
wanna set this exciting new show up?
00:03:43.761 --> 00:03:44.081
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:03:44.091 --> 00:03:48.521
I mean, it, it is something, you know,
being in groups for, you know, so many
00:03:48.521 --> 00:03:53.641
decades, I mean, I think I'm three and
a half decades into, you know, being
00:03:53.741 --> 00:03:55.871
entrenched in, you know, running groups.
00:03:56.521 --> 00:04:01.171
Uh, been leading small groups
longer than that, but, uh, you
00:04:01.171 --> 00:04:02.671
know, a personal small group.
00:04:03.181 --> 00:04:06.321
But, you know, the thing that I would
say is there's a couple things that I
00:04:06.611 --> 00:04:11.641
would, you know, as small group pastors
or the, the point person as we're heading
00:04:11.641 --> 00:04:18.081
into that, there's so often our identity
gets wrapped around, uh, you know, how
00:04:18.081 --> 00:04:22.851
many groups we have, you know, all the
numbers that you can play into that.
00:04:22.851 --> 00:04:25.711
And that's why we really wanted to
focus this, you know, this episode,
00:04:26.181 --> 00:04:30.281
you know, on attendance, metrics, and
health because they're slippery slopes.
00:04:30.291 --> 00:04:33.981
But there's a couple quotes I wanna
read you that have just impacted me,
00:04:33.991 --> 00:04:38.121
you know, this week, and it's ⦠One
of them is mystery, mystery.
00:04:38.531 --> 00:04:40.231
Geez, it's gonna be a long show.
00:04:40.231 --> 00:04:40.861
Sorry, Derek.
00:04:41.311 --> 00:04:45.231
"Ministry is what we leave
behind after you follow Jesus."
00:04:46.061 --> 00:04:50.671
So as you're talking about your small
group ministry, you know, uh, everything
00:04:50.671 --> 00:04:55.281
about that, and if I could re- rephrase
the quote as saying, "Small group
00:04:55.301 --> 00:05:00.121
ministry is what we leave behind after
you follow Jesus," is just realizing
00:05:00.121 --> 00:05:05.841
how important it is on your identity, on
the authority that Christ is giving you
00:05:05.841 --> 00:05:11.481
and the life you live, is to understand
that, you know, what you do in your
00:05:11.521 --> 00:05:16.981
personal life is really what's gonna help
in your small group ministry the best.
00:05:17.581 --> 00:05:21.131
And then the other quote right
there is, um, "What we believe
00:05:21.131 --> 00:05:26.371
about life after death determines
how we live life before death."
00:05:27.515 --> 00:05:30.665
And obviously the play on words
there is, you know, after death
00:05:30.665 --> 00:05:32.995
and before death that you're doing.
00:05:33.005 --> 00:05:37.875
But a lot of times, you know,
our priorities get stuck in the
00:05:37.885 --> 00:05:41.225
mundane of sometimes of church
life, and we need to separate it
00:05:41.225 --> 00:05:43.125
out of what's really important.
00:05:43.735 --> 00:05:48.075
And it really does set up the show
because, you know, when you talk about
00:05:48.085 --> 00:05:52.775
stats and metrics and all that, your
identity can quickly float into that,
00:05:53.145 --> 00:05:56.085
and who you are can be sabotaged by that.
00:05:57.115 --> 00:06:00.385
And then the whole point of, you
know, you get caught up in the grind
00:06:00.395 --> 00:06:04.035
of church ministry, and sometimes
you forget what you're living for.
00:06:04.555 --> 00:06:08.285
And that's where I'd like to set this
up, is by saying, you know, when I
00:06:08.305 --> 00:06:13.655
travel, and trust me, I've almost got
2 million miles in the air, but when I
00:06:13.675 --> 00:06:19.485
travel, the last thing that comes into
the pilots and the cockpit is a manifest.
00:06:19.515 --> 00:06:23.385
And on that manifest, it'll
always say the number of souls
00:06:23.575 --> 00:06:24.835
that are aboard that plane.
00:06:25.695 --> 00:06:30.675
And if your airline is concerned with
knowing the number of souls, how much
00:06:30.675 --> 00:06:33.815
more we should be concerned about
the number of souls that we have?
00:06:34.325 --> 00:06:37.475
Now, that starts the slippery slope,
because all of a sudden when you go to
00:06:37.475 --> 00:06:41.605
the numbers of souls, you can be very
caught up in the whole numbers game.
00:06:42.045 --> 00:06:45.255
And it's, it's a little bit dicey, but
it's important for you to understand
00:06:45.255 --> 00:06:51.175
that you're in the soul business, and
how you take care of those souls is
00:06:51.185 --> 00:06:55.025
what, you know, Jesus is gonna look
at you at, at the end of time saying,
00:06:55.325 --> 00:06:57.065
"What did you do with what I gave you?"
00:06:57.495 --> 00:07:02.115
And understand what the, what you've
been given, but hold that in the balance
00:07:02.115 --> 00:07:08.295
of not only how you live about managing
those souls, but also making sure that in
00:07:08.295 --> 00:07:13.375
your own life, your own soul is protected
and that you're taken care of in this.
00:07:13.745 --> 00:07:17.455
So as we dive into this, Derek, I know
you got a ton of questions, but as we dive
00:07:17.455 --> 00:07:21.775
into this, it's gonna be really important
that you kinda look through this setup
00:07:22.215 --> 00:07:26.445
of understanding that your small group
ministry that you leave behind is after
00:07:26.445 --> 00:07:31.625
you follow Jesus and looking at your own
personal soul care, and then understanding
00:07:31.625 --> 00:07:37.115
what you believe about life after death
determines how you live life before death.
00:07:37.845 --> 00:07:41.585
And, uh, it's just gonna be super
important that you understand we are in
00:07:41.585 --> 00:07:45.965
the soul business, and don't forget that
as we talk through all these little things
00:07:45.965 --> 00:07:48.845
about attendance and metrics and numbers.
00:07:51.345 --> 00:07:52.125
Speaker 6: Great reminder there.
00:07:52.385 --> 00:07:56.505
So as we're starting out fall here-
Mm-hmm ⦠and as small group ministry
00:07:56.505 --> 00:08:02.155
leaders are thinking about numbers and
growing their small group ministry,
00:08:02.455 --> 00:08:06.705
when we're, um, thinking about these
numbers, what are we exactly looking for?
00:08:07.555 --> 00:08:10.405
Speaker 7: Well, I, I think that
the, the first thing is, um,
00:08:10.815 --> 00:08:13.835
it's important they understand
that numbers aren't a bad thing.
00:08:14.395 --> 00:08:17.965
Uh, I, I would get this all the time at
Saddleback is like, you know, numbers,
00:08:17.965 --> 00:08:21.805
numbers, numbers, all you think about is
numbers and, you know, things like that.
00:08:21.805 --> 00:08:26.805
And, and what I would look back on
is saying that, you know, it'sâ¦
00:08:27.425 --> 00:08:28.705
numbers aren't a bad thing.
00:08:28.715 --> 00:08:32.285
Matter of fact, in the Old Testament,
there's a book called Numbers.
00:08:32.925 --> 00:08:37.805
And so, you know, God was pretty concerned
about numbers and souls and everything
00:08:37.805 --> 00:08:41.955
like that, and we understand that, you
know, every, every number is connected to
00:08:41.955 --> 00:08:46.415
a soul that's connected to a story that,
you know, we need to figure out and know.
00:08:47.265 --> 00:08:50.205
But I know sometimes people would
also come to me when we were talking
00:08:50.205 --> 00:08:53.425
about, you know, you know, what's
the attendance and what, what are
00:08:53.425 --> 00:08:54.775
the metrics we're looking for?
00:08:55.255 --> 00:08:55.665
At theâ¦
00:08:55.675 --> 00:09:00.155
a lot of times that people would say
to us is, you know, "Well, we don't
00:09:00.155 --> 00:09:04.775
care about the quantity, we care
about the quality of the people."
00:09:05.585 --> 00:09:09.315
And what I would say is that as you're
listening through this episode, they
00:09:09.315 --> 00:09:11.255
don't have to be enemies of each other.
00:09:11.955 --> 00:09:15.625
Uh, I mean, I have two kids, and let's
just suppose we went on a camping
00:09:15.625 --> 00:09:20.985
trip, and let's just suppose that
up in Northern California, somebody
00:09:20.985 --> 00:09:23.125
misplaced both children for a little bit.
00:09:23.745 --> 00:09:28.035
And so let's suppose that that
somebody was me, just, just,
00:09:28.115 --> 00:09:29.725
you know, for story's sake.
00:09:30.635 --> 00:09:36.315
And, uh, Lisa and I go looking for both
kids, and we come back with just one kid.
00:09:37.205 --> 00:09:41.165
We don't go, "Well, that was the
quality kid, so we can go home."
00:09:41.265 --> 00:09:46.085
You know, quality and quantity
mattered in this little story.
00:09:46.525 --> 00:09:50.105
And in the same way, what I would
say is that what I would love for you
00:09:50.105 --> 00:09:54.095
to understand and get in this whole
episode, and it's been a long lesson
00:09:54.095 --> 00:10:00.365
learned for me, is that you have to
focus on both, both quality and quantity.
00:10:00.705 --> 00:10:04.285
And that's where your numbers and
metrics can really play an important
00:10:04.285 --> 00:10:08.705
part of how you can take care of all
the souls that the Lord is giving you,
00:10:08.995 --> 00:10:14.235
but also at the same time understand
that there is a quality factor that
00:10:14.235 --> 00:10:15.965
you've gotta play into this equation.
00:10:18.317 --> 00:10:23.727
Speaker 6: So if numbers aren't
bad then, uh, then what, what then
00:10:23.727 --> 00:10:25.447
are we specifically looking for?
00:10:26.327 --> 00:10:28.817
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, good
question on that, that side.
00:10:29.437 --> 00:10:34.147
Um, one of the things that you
gotta look at for numbers, uh, which
00:10:34.167 --> 00:10:38.847
obviously I don't think they're
bad, is that they are indicators.
00:10:39.277 --> 00:10:44.327
And for those of you that are like metric
nerds, there's lead and lag indicators
00:10:44.327 --> 00:10:47.217
that if you don't know what I'm talking
about, you can dive into that and just
00:10:47.227 --> 00:10:51.007
put that in your search engine and, and
learn about that, and it'll help you
00:10:51.017 --> 00:10:55.607
start to get some, uh, some trending
pieces in your small group ministry.
00:10:56.257 --> 00:11:01.857
But on the more, uh, starting in the
more foundational side of it, is that
00:11:01.857 --> 00:11:03.877
you've gotta use data as your friend.
00:11:04.807 --> 00:11:08.007
When I'm doing conferences, I always
say, I, I mean, I know that Jesus is
00:11:08.027 --> 00:11:12.897
Lord, but one of the important things
that you have to understand is that
00:11:12.957 --> 00:11:18.557
in the small group ministry world, uh,
data is lord, small L, not the large L.
00:11:19.077 --> 00:11:23.267
And, uh, in that, you gotta understand
that data is your friend, but at
00:11:23.267 --> 00:11:28.907
the same time, you've gotta start
looking at and asking what, what
00:11:28.907 --> 00:11:30.727
is it that you're looking for?
00:11:30.787 --> 00:11:34.907
I mean, when you're getting data,
what, what is it that you're,
00:11:34.947 --> 00:11:37.027
uh, trying to find and look for?
00:11:40.317 --> 00:11:40.897
Speaker 6: Well said.
00:11:40.897 --> 00:11:44.787
So data is lord, little L.
00:11:45.147 --> 00:11:45.627
I love
00:11:46.267 --> 00:11:46.897
Speaker 7: that Data, little L
00:11:47.627 --> 00:11:48.747
Speaker 6: Data is lord.
00:11:48.747 --> 00:11:54.387
So if numbers aren't bad and we're looking
at the data, then when we're looking
00:11:54.387 --> 00:11:56.497
at the data, what are we looking for?
00:11:56.497 --> 00:11:59.167
What would we ask for to see in the data?
00:11:59.887 --> 00:12:03.707
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think this
is the, the great point where you as a
00:12:03.707 --> 00:12:07.417
small group point person, I would really
push this to you, and I can give you
00:12:07.417 --> 00:12:09.947
my experiences of what, what I've had.
00:12:10.487 --> 00:12:15.897
But I know a lot of times that we,
we look for stuff i- in big church,
00:12:15.907 --> 00:12:19.477
you know, it's, it's like how many
butts are in the seat and how many
00:12:19.487 --> 00:12:20.927
nickels are thrown in the plate.
00:12:21.477 --> 00:12:25.947
And sometimes we think that that
is, you know, the end-all be-all.
00:12:26.007 --> 00:12:31.157
But as we saw through COVID, uh, that
wasn't the end-all be-all because it
00:12:31.157 --> 00:12:35.307
really shook up the, the church and
really polarized the church in a way that
00:12:35.307 --> 00:12:37.967
it's never been pol- polarized before.
00:12:38.877 --> 00:12:44.567
And so, uh, a- as you're looking at
this, I would go back to what our premise
00:12:44.577 --> 00:12:46.177
is, and that is about discipleship.
00:12:47.897 --> 00:12:52.607
And when you're looking at discipleship,
I would ask myself if I was, if I was
00:12:52.607 --> 00:12:57.917
looking for data, I would say, what
gets us towards that end in mind or
00:12:57.917 --> 00:13:00.327
what gets us towards being a disciple?
00:13:00.917 --> 00:13:06.787
And it kind of begs the question is, what
is success for your small group leader?
00:13:07.287 --> 00:13:12.527
Because if discipleship is the name of
the game, and I really hope that is, and
00:13:12.527 --> 00:13:16.877
I know in a lot of small group strategies
you can go after a connection strategy
00:13:16.877 --> 00:13:21.757
or a discipleship strategy, and again,
this is the quality and quantity piece.
00:13:21.987 --> 00:13:25.797
I think both are super important,
but sometimes we leave it at the
00:13:25.797 --> 00:13:27.917
doorstep of one or the other.
00:13:28.317 --> 00:13:31.207
A lot of times in the connection strategy,
you're just trying to get as many people
00:13:31.207 --> 00:13:35.357
connected in a group, and that's your
metric for, hey, hey, you know, the,
00:13:35.417 --> 00:13:37.547
the small group ministry is doing well.
00:13:38.057 --> 00:13:40.917
And unfortunately, a lot of
churches look at that like they
00:13:40.917 --> 00:13:42.457
look at their weekend attendance.
00:13:43.177 --> 00:13:47.977
But at the same time too, if you go to
the polar opposite side and go strong
00:13:47.977 --> 00:13:52.247
discipleship, it is really about how
many books you read, how many, how
00:13:52.247 --> 00:13:55.037
many practices you're doing in that.
00:13:55.077 --> 00:13:58.087
And what I would do is look for
a blend of the two of figuring
00:13:58.087 --> 00:14:00.007
out what is discipleship.
00:14:00.137 --> 00:14:05.847
And since I've been, uh, you know, down at
Pine Lake, it's, in Mississippi, is really
00:14:05.847 --> 00:14:08.907
working towards what is that end disciple.
00:14:09.317 --> 00:14:14.767
And, uh, you know, they're really honing
in on those attributes of what are success
00:14:15.953 --> 00:14:19.893
Maybe in the next episode I'll have a
better lock on that after I get back from
00:14:19.893 --> 00:14:22.253
a, a lead retreat we're doing together.
00:14:22.733 --> 00:14:26.773
But it, it looks like it's focusing
on, you know, some, some qualities
00:14:26.773 --> 00:14:28.463
that we can put our handles on.
00:14:28.913 --> 00:14:35.283
And so when you're asking what do you
ask, ask for in intent in, in small group
00:14:35.283 --> 00:14:41.353
life, I would say ask for the things that
help you measure discipleship happening.
00:14:42.113 --> 00:14:46.343
And that, that for us is talking
more about an individual health
00:14:46.343 --> 00:14:50.503
assessment and a group assessment,
which is what we did at Saddleback.
00:14:50.593 --> 00:14:56.063
It helps us get the quality and the
quantity that, that is happening
00:14:56.063 --> 00:14:57.523
in there that we're looking for.
00:14:58.003 --> 00:15:04.123
And so we would, you know, go more
towards looking at what the individual,
00:15:04.133 --> 00:15:10.883
how healthy they are and the, uh,
group, how healthy it is, and they're
00:15:10.893 --> 00:15:14.493
mirrors of each other so that you
wanna be able to work on that.
00:15:15.003 --> 00:15:20.233
And so what I would say is look for
what helps you measure discipleship.
00:15:20.253 --> 00:15:24.243
And a lot of times we're stuck in
our small group ministry of just
00:15:24.253 --> 00:15:28.943
measuring attendance, and measuring
attendance is the end all be all.
00:15:29.093 --> 00:15:32.603
But have to ask yourself the
question, does attendance give
00:15:32.603 --> 00:15:34.223
you the health you're looking for?
00:15:34.223 --> 00:15:37.393
And so you may wanna look at what
kind of data you're collecting
00:15:38.803 --> 00:15:39.353
Speaker 6: I like that.
00:15:39.353 --> 00:15:42.233
Does attendance give you the
health you're looking for?
00:15:43.253 --> 00:15:47.903
Now we know a lot of our listeners,
uh, take attendance, right?
00:15:48.393 --> 00:15:52.223
Uh, so talk to us about
the attendance topic.
00:15:52.223 --> 00:15:54.323
Is taking attendance bad?
00:15:55.293 --> 00:15:57.743
Speaker 7: Well, a-and again, I
wouldn't say it's a, it's a good or bad.
00:15:57.743 --> 00:16:00.673
It's an indicator, uh, of that.
00:16:00.693 --> 00:16:05.253
But again, it, it dives much
deeper than butts in the seats.
00:16:05.723 --> 00:16:11.393
Uh, I look at my own small group and
there's sometimes where, uh, we're not
00:16:11.393 --> 00:16:16.433
meeting or not everybody is there or is
present, but it's how well you're taking
00:16:16.433 --> 00:16:21.613
care of them and how well you're helping
them understand what discipleship is.
00:16:22.103 --> 00:16:25.963
And so it can be a leading
indicator of do, will you have
00:16:25.963 --> 00:16:27.803
the opportunity to do that?
00:16:28.183 --> 00:16:30.333
But it doesn't necessarily
mean it's gonna happen.
00:16:30.923 --> 00:16:37.323
And it goes back to the, uh, added,
added piece of saying, uh, health, if
00:16:37.323 --> 00:16:42.833
your, your metrics of discipleship are
on health indicators, health will get you
00:16:42.833 --> 00:16:45.173
the growth you're looking for, or i.e.
00:16:45.183 --> 00:16:46.163
the attendance.
00:16:46.773 --> 00:16:49.573
But attendance won't
necessarily give you health.
00:16:49.923 --> 00:16:53.613
It's just like for myself, if I
go to church every Sunday, but I'm
00:16:53.613 --> 00:16:57.643
still partying all the time, I mean,
my attendance record looks great
00:16:57.643 --> 00:17:01.673
and I'll get the gold star for, you
know, going 52 weeks out of the year.
00:17:02.263 --> 00:17:05.373
But if I'm rotten on the
inside, then that's a problem.
00:17:05.823 --> 00:17:10.393
And in the same way in small groups,
sometimes attendance can give you a false
00:17:10.443 --> 00:17:16.503
indicator w- or what we call a false
positive of saying, "Oh, they come all the
00:17:16.513 --> 00:17:19.013
time, so they must be getting healthy."
00:17:19.333 --> 00:17:24.823
And what I would say is you'd wanna take
that one step deeper, which is why we, we
00:17:24.823 --> 00:17:30.453
are working on more of a health assessment
and a group health assessment to be
00:17:30.453 --> 00:17:36.623
able to get us to those places so that,
you know, we can also know what of our,
00:17:36.633 --> 00:17:38.893
what are some of our leading indicators.
00:17:39.463 --> 00:17:42.663
But personally, I wouldn't
die on the hill of attendance.
00:17:43.013 --> 00:17:47.223
I would die on a, more on how many
health assessments are out there
00:17:47.223 --> 00:17:50.333
for the individual and how many
group assessments are out there.
00:17:52.669 --> 00:17:53.329
Speaker 6: Well said.
00:17:53.329 --> 00:17:57.009
So you've mentioned, uh, health
assessment several times now.
00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.259
So let's dive a little deeper into that.
00:18:00.049 --> 00:18:04.809
Uh, you know, for those who might be new
to leading small group ministry, uh, when
00:18:04.809 --> 00:18:10.409
it comes to health, um, can you kind of
explain the health assessment that you
00:18:10.409 --> 00:18:12.619
refer to that you built on discipleship?
00:18:13.419 --> 00:18:13.829
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:18:14.419 --> 00:18:18.209
Um, you know, at Saddleback, you
know, we had a health assessment
00:18:18.209 --> 00:18:21.609
and a group assessment that were
very enlightening to the groups.
00:18:22.129 --> 00:18:28.819
And again, I would preface this by, uh,
you, you can do your best at, at getting
00:18:28.909 --> 00:18:33.269
things to your group, but it's gonna be
up to them to take some ownership in it.
00:18:34.149 --> 00:18:35.329
It's kinda like with your kids.
00:18:35.329 --> 00:18:38.899
You raise your kids as best as possible,
giving them the tools, giving them
00:18:38.899 --> 00:18:45.939
the environment, giving them the, the
opportunity and the foundation to be
00:18:45.939 --> 00:18:47.649
the children that you want them to be.
00:18:48.189 --> 00:18:51.209
Uh, but it's up to them to kinda
take it and make it their own.
00:18:51.649 --> 00:18:55.479
And in the same way, I'll preface this by
saying with the small group, we'll give
00:18:55.479 --> 00:18:59.559
them the tools and the resources and the
curriculum pathway and all those things
00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:05.875
that will help them be healthy spiritually
is where the church is going, but we have
00:19:05.875 --> 00:19:09.715
to be able to, uh, they have to take some
ownership in it, and sometimes that's
00:19:09.725 --> 00:19:11.395
training and helping them move in it.
00:19:12.065 --> 00:19:17.415
But again, for us, where I, I would
say at Saddleback where we were and
00:19:17.415 --> 00:19:21.625
what I'm building at Pine Lake, looking
very different but very similar in some
00:19:21.625 --> 00:19:28.085
regards, is that in, um, at Saddleback,
you know, it was, you know, m- measuring
00:19:28.085 --> 00:19:30.785
off the five verbs of the Great
Commission and the Great Commandment.
00:19:31.605 --> 00:19:36.745
And in, in some ways at Pine Lake,
it's measuring off different indicators
00:19:36.765 --> 00:19:41.885
also found in the Great Commission,
Great Commandment in Acts 2, uh,
00:19:41.915 --> 00:19:44.025
but being able to see these metrics.
00:19:44.055 --> 00:19:45.725
But here, here's the gist of it.
00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:51.005
Whatever you're defining or however
you're defining a, a disciple, you
00:19:51.005 --> 00:19:54.935
gotta ask yourself the question:
what are the attributes that
00:19:54.935 --> 00:19:57.285
you're trying to assess in people?
00:19:58.065 --> 00:20:01.185
And then in your individual health
assessment, what you're trying
00:20:01.185 --> 00:20:05.945
to do is have questions that
make them wrestle through those
00:20:05.985 --> 00:20:07.595
attributes that you're wanting.
00:20:08.045 --> 00:20:11.765
So for at Saddleback, it was on
worship, on fellowship, on discipleship,
00:20:11.765 --> 00:20:13.905
on serving, and evangelism.
00:20:14.645 --> 00:20:19.215
So for us, because I spent, you know,
almost 30 years all, all by itself,
00:20:19.215 --> 00:20:23.495
you know, working with that, I'll kinda
default to that a little bit as I'm still
00:20:23.495 --> 00:20:27.335
playing around and we're still trying
to work as a team to define Pine Lake's.
00:20:28.205 --> 00:20:31.465
But in that regard, we would say,
you know, what are the attributes
00:20:31.465 --> 00:20:36.655
of worship that would reflect
people engaging in those activities?
00:20:37.195 --> 00:20:38.805
And then the same thing in fellowship.
00:20:38.815 --> 00:20:44.075
What is authentic community, and how
are people engaging in those activities?
00:20:44.465 --> 00:20:49.995
In discipleship, we were looking for what
are the, what are the next steps that
00:20:49.995 --> 00:20:54.345
our people are taking, and how are they
engaging people to help them grow in that?
00:20:54.695 --> 00:20:58.095
In the area of serving, it was
more about how are you serving?
00:20:58.095 --> 00:20:59.555
How is your group serving?
00:20:59.575 --> 00:21:03.337
And so there's, you know, health
assessments with that And then in
00:21:03.337 --> 00:21:07.567
the, uh, area of, uh, evangelism,
how are you engaging in personal,
00:21:07.567 --> 00:21:09.507
local, and global evangelism?
00:21:10.027 --> 00:21:14.137
So in the individual assessment,
you're asking questions, but you're not
00:21:14.137 --> 00:21:16.017
asking questions just to ask questions.
00:21:16.017 --> 00:21:21.157
You're asking questions to be able to
give them a pathway to build a planner.
00:21:21.557 --> 00:21:25.177
And in the planner, you're trying
to find out, okay, which attribute
00:21:25.177 --> 00:21:26.477
are you trying to work on?
00:21:26.927 --> 00:21:31.157
Then what's a goal, 30-day goal
that you wanna do to work on that?
00:21:31.527 --> 00:21:34.547
And then who's gonna partner with
you to make sure you get there?
00:21:35.297 --> 00:21:39.427
And one of the things that this
does is helps you learn more about
00:21:39.887 --> 00:21:44.447
is mentoring a one-person thing,
one, one person has all the answers,
00:21:44.767 --> 00:21:46.917
or is mentoring multiple things.
00:21:46.917 --> 00:21:51.467
And what I found in the area of
partnership is they're selecting mentors
00:21:51.467 --> 00:21:53.737
that will help them in a specific area.
00:21:54.397 --> 00:21:59.547
So the bottom line is, is in the
individual health assessment, you're
00:21:59.547 --> 00:22:03.177
finding out where you're strong
and where your growth areas are.
00:22:03.657 --> 00:22:08.667
And coming out of that, you want them to
figure out, you know, what's a, what's a
00:22:08.677 --> 00:22:14.637
step where I can help somebody out, and
what's a, an area that I need to grow in?
00:22:14.757 --> 00:22:17.807
So you're trying to find, you know,
how do I help, and how do I grow
00:22:18.347 --> 00:22:19.847
coming out of the health assessment?
00:22:19.847 --> 00:22:23.207
It's a great indicator across the
church if everyone's u- using it.
00:22:23.607 --> 00:22:27.477
Fun fact, uh, in the early days of
Saddleback when we were rolling this
00:22:27.477 --> 00:22:32.267
out, when we had about almost, uh, I
think it was 17,000 or 18,000 health
00:22:32.267 --> 00:22:37.977
assessments done, it was interesting
that over 85% of the people self-declared
00:22:37.977 --> 00:22:40.447
themselves weak in the area of evangelism.
00:22:41.287 --> 00:22:42.757
So what do we need to work on?
00:22:43.047 --> 00:22:44.767
Well, evangelism in that case.
00:22:44.777 --> 00:22:46.477
So that's the individual
health assessment.
00:22:46.947 --> 00:22:48.697
The group assessment mirrors it.
00:22:49.117 --> 00:22:52.667
It's a shorter assessment, whereas
the individual health as- health
00:22:52.677 --> 00:22:54.427
assessment was 35 questions.
00:22:54.997 --> 00:22:57.557
The group assessment was
only 10 questions, but
00:22:57.557 --> 00:22:59.637
reflecting on the same area.
00:22:59.637 --> 00:23:04.617
Two questions that were on the area
of, uh, worship, on the area of
00:23:04.627 --> 00:23:10.041
fellowship, discipleship, uh, serving
in evangelism And so what that would
00:23:10.041 --> 00:23:15.071
do is when the whole group takes it,
it helps you understand, you know,
00:23:15.071 --> 00:23:18.021
where the group is deficient and
where, what they need to work on.
00:23:18.081 --> 00:23:21.401
And so when you're done taking
the group assessment, what you
00:23:21.401 --> 00:23:25.681
do is you have a three-part
follow-through as the group leader.
00:23:25.681 --> 00:23:31.351
One is, who is strong in, in those areas
that can help your group grow in the area?
00:23:31.781 --> 00:23:35.341
And then what's a curriculum
that we could possibly do that
00:23:35.341 --> 00:23:36.641
would strengthen us in that?
00:23:36.891 --> 00:23:38.751
And then what's an activity we could do?
00:23:39.221 --> 00:23:41.061
And so you're giving the group steps.
00:23:41.061 --> 00:23:46.301
And my, my point with both of these is
that if you wanna go into s- uh, the book
00:23:46.301 --> 00:23:50.951
"Small Groups with Purpose," chapter 10,
uh, or if you have "Leading Small Groups
00:23:50.951 --> 00:23:54.681
with Purpose," I think it's chapter
three, you can learn more about the health
00:23:54.681 --> 00:23:56.321
assessment and the group assessment.
00:23:56.781 --> 00:23:57.901
That'll take it much deeper.
00:23:57.901 --> 00:24:04.561
But the point is, is that I would
much rather measure health than
00:24:04.561 --> 00:24:07.041
I would wanna measure attendance.
00:24:07.531 --> 00:24:11.141
Not that one is worse than the
other or better than the other,
00:24:11.491 --> 00:24:13.781
but that they can work in tandem.
00:24:14.181 --> 00:24:18.421
But instead of weekly trying to get
attendance, what I'd rather the group
00:24:18.421 --> 00:24:22.821
leader spend their time working on is,
has everyone taken a health assessment,
00:24:22.831 --> 00:24:24.611
which we'd end up doing once a year?
00:24:25.041 --> 00:24:29.451
And is the group assessment, which
we would do twice a year, being
00:24:29.451 --> 00:24:31.601
able to engage them in those areas?
00:24:31.601 --> 00:24:33.201
So there's a lot on that.
00:24:33.561 --> 00:24:36.911
You can always ping me at
steve@smallgroupnetwork.com
00:24:36.911 --> 00:24:38.141
if you have more questions.
00:24:38.531 --> 00:24:41.901
But the point that I'm trying to share
with you is that when you're looking
00:24:41.901 --> 00:24:46.911
at attendance and metrics and health,
it's gonna be really, really important
00:24:46.911 --> 00:24:51.711
that your soul is set strong, but
that you have the tools in place to
00:24:51.711 --> 00:24:53.201
make sure you can make this happen.
00:24:53.241 --> 00:24:57.765
So Not sure if that made sense,
Derek, but that'll teach you
00:24:57.765 --> 00:24:58.665
for asking that question.
00:25:00.485 --> 00:25:01.265
Speaker 6: That was great.
00:25:01.315 --> 00:25:06.565
Um, you had mentioned two of your books
and key chapters that have diagrams
00:25:06.565 --> 00:25:10.225
and basically everything they're
looking for when it comes to the health
00:25:10.225 --> 00:25:12.155
assessment and the group assessment.
00:25:12.945 --> 00:25:14.225
Where can they get your books?
00:25:15.135 --> 00:25:15.425
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:25:15.425 --> 00:25:18.985
Obviously, uh, Amazon's gonna be your
b- be your best way to get it, and
00:25:19.025 --> 00:25:22.345
it's "Small Groups with Purpose" and
"Leading Small Groups with Purpose."
00:25:22.985 --> 00:25:26.315
But if you happen to be in the Small
Group Network and you're All Access
00:25:26.315 --> 00:25:30.795
member, if you're an All Access member,
you can actually get the, the physical
00:25:30.805 --> 00:25:35.355
copies of, of those that are in the
book, but ones that you could play around
00:25:35.355 --> 00:25:38.985
with and modify them to work for you.
00:25:38.985 --> 00:25:41.655
So you actually get it in
a couple different places.
00:25:42.835 --> 00:25:43.285
Speaker 6: Cool.
00:25:43.355 --> 00:25:46.735
And, um, remind me how people
can become an All Access, uh,
00:25:46.735 --> 00:25:47.965
Small Group Network member.
00:25:48.325 --> 00:25:48.465
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:25:48.465 --> 00:25:50.425
If you go on smallgroupnetwork.com,
00:25:50.505 --> 00:25:52.555
uh, it's a great way for you to getâ¦
00:25:52.575 --> 00:25:55.895
There's so many things that are
happening in the Small Group Network now.
00:25:56.335 --> 00:26:00.465
Uh, in the fall, we're-- this fall,
uh, coming up in October, we're
00:26:00.465 --> 00:26:02.875
launching our weekly coaching calls too.
00:26:03.315 --> 00:26:07.825
Uh, if you're an All Access member, it's
just one of the many benefits of being
00:26:07.825 --> 00:26:11.435
a member of All Access that you can get,
and you can be a part of that weekly
00:26:11.465 --> 00:26:13.675
coaching call that can help you out.
00:26:14.225 --> 00:26:16.685
But if you go on, uh,
smallgroupnetwork.com,
00:26:16.705 --> 00:26:21.305
there's all kinds of information about
becoming All Access and the, and the
00:26:21.305 --> 00:26:25.145
things that will help you kinda get
that and, uh, take it to that next step.
00:26:27.115 --> 00:26:28.165
Speaker 6: Very cool.
00:26:28.185 --> 00:26:35.415
Well, that is our first show of the fall
season here on attendance, metrics, and
00:26:35.425 --> 00:26:41.065
health, and we really hope this, uh,
inspires everybody, encourages you, equips
00:26:41.075 --> 00:26:43.035
you to lead better, healthier groups.
00:26:43.715 --> 00:26:47.155
And, uh, Steve, unless you have any other
final thoughts, we'll, uh, sign off here.
00:26:47.735 --> 00:26:48.015
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:26:48.015 --> 00:26:51.855
Just, uh, you know, I would just
w- say, what are those attributes
00:26:51.855 --> 00:26:53.945
that are great for discipleship?
00:26:53.985 --> 00:26:56.755
Work through with that with
your church leadership, and then
00:26:56.765 --> 00:26:58.205
build everything behind that.
00:26:59.595 --> 00:27:00.305
Speaker 6: Sounds good.
00:27:00.665 --> 00:27:03.715
Thanks for, uh, listening, everybody,
and we will see you next time.
00:27:04.715 --> 00:27:05.535
Speaker 7: God bless, everybody.
00:27:07.678 --> 00:27:08.668
Louisa: Thank you for listening!
00:27:09.158 --> 00:27:12.368
And don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:27:13.078 --> 00:27:16.638
If you'd like to go deeper and get
more resources or join the small
00:27:16.638 --> 00:27:20.268
group network, just head over
to small group network dot com.
00:27:20.808 --> 00:27:21.758
We'll see you next time!
