Cleoniki Kesidis - Forging Connection as a Creative

WEBVTT
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:01.850
Welcome to the Real People Real Business Show.
00:00:01.850 --> 00:00:09.259
My name is Stephanie Hayes, and I'm a business strategist who helps experience business owners design asset-based business models that set them up for growth and exit.
00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:15.710
I love to speak with like-minded entrepreneurs to share their real stories in the gritty details of how they've navigated their own way through.
00:00:16.158 --> 00:00:22.879
On this show, you won't hear about the glamorized entrepreneurship journeys that you see online, and you won't be told how to make six figures in six weeks.
00:00:23.054 --> 00:00:30.734
Instead, you can expect to hear real, vulnerable and inspiring stories that you can relate to that have helped create the foundation for each of our guests businesses.
00:00:31.445 --> 00:00:34.615
Today, I'm so excited to welcome Cleoniki Kesidis.
00:00:35.005 --> 00:00:58.445
Cleoniki is a copywriter and brand storyteller who helps solo entrepreneurs and small businesses connect with their audience on an emotional level and has developed brand platforms for large international brands, coaches, startups, and more an education in biology and computer science taught Klia Nii precision and an and analysis, which has helped her approach copywriting analytically, investigating problems and applying the most effective solutions.
00:00:58.744 --> 00:01:02.075
Welcome to this show and thanks so much for taking the time to share your story today.
00:01:02.554 --> 00:01:03.725
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
00:01:04.805 --> 00:01:06.034
So gimme this.
00:01:06.185 --> 00:01:07.954
Tell me a little bit more about this background.
00:01:07.954 --> 00:01:09.575
I'm, I'm intrigued by it.
00:01:09.575 --> 00:01:18.454
So you started in biological sciences and in a very scientific career rooted in data and analysis.
00:01:18.454 --> 00:01:18.655
Mm-hmm.
00:01:18.734 --> 00:01:20.795
And you ended up in a very creative field.
00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:31.400
Yeah, so I actually started out, I, as a software engineer and worked as a software engineer for a couple years there doing legacy code and c the whole thing.
00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:34.584
And I decided that that wasn't really for me.
00:01:34.584 --> 00:01:35.575
I didn't love that.
00:01:35.605 --> 00:01:38.420
I moved into biology and, and did a master's.
00:01:38.420 --> 00:01:41.180
So a lot of research, a lot of data, a lot of analysis.
00:01:41.739 --> 00:01:44.799
And there was a lot that I loved that I enjoyed about both those careers.
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:52.810
And I found that what I was really enjoying was the process of figuring out how stuff works and how to communicate that.
00:01:52.810 --> 00:02:01.780
So I really, really loved presenting to people and sharing information and just figuring out how to, how to communicate these more complicated processes.
00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:05.500
And I'd always loved writing, so I was doing some freelance writing.
00:02:06.049 --> 00:02:18.259
And then the, the pandemic hit around the time that I'd finished my master's and so it just felt like a, a good time to jump into freelance writing and copywriting in specific specifically.
00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:20.719
So yeah, that's how I got there.
00:02:20.724 --> 00:02:35.909
And I find that in copywriting, it's really a lot of the same thing that I really enjoy is that figuring out how theft works really digging into these details and figuring out exactly what's going on, and then how to communicate that in a way that's really simple and clear.
00:02:36.830 --> 00:02:43.219
Yeah, it's that perfect marriage of science and analytics and you know, creativity.
00:02:43.219 --> 00:02:43.310
Mm-hmm.
00:02:43.555 --> 00:02:56.289
And , I've had a lot of copywriters that have been my clients and I know that it's very much Like the creative side comes after you've gone through and, and been very analytical about the work that you're doing.
00:02:56.289 --> 00:03:03.849
And so I think that, you know, a lot of people start out in these creative fields and they think, oh, I'm just a good writer and so therefore I'm just gonna write well.
00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:06.460
But it, as you know, there's a whole lot more to it.
00:03:06.460 --> 00:03:13.569
So can you talk a little bit about what you've discovered about working with clients and how you marry those two sides of the business?
00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:17.650
Yeah, I mean, writing is such a small part of the business really.
00:03:18.189 --> 00:03:26.629
It's such a small percentage of, of what you're doing because so much of it is about that information gathering and, and really figuring out what it is.
00:03:26.629 --> 00:03:31.250
And I do think that that's really key to communication in general, really.
00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:36.560
It's the whole, you know, the, the quote about how I didn't have time to write something short, so I wrote something long.
00:03:37.009 --> 00:03:38.509
I always forget which author wrote that.
00:03:38.590 --> 00:03:46.569
But it's basically the idea that if you wanna communicate well and, and clearly and be concise, that that is, is so much more work.
00:03:46.669 --> 00:03:51.139
Goes into just that idea and that processing and planning your, your message basically.
00:03:51.650 --> 00:03:54.979
Yeah, I own a software company and when we first built.
00:03:55.544 --> 00:03:58.455
The solution that we, you know, that's our core product.
00:03:58.875 --> 00:04:04.485
You know, a lot of people really perceive this type of solution as something very straightforward and very simple.
00:04:04.490 --> 00:04:04.875
Mm-hmm.
00:04:04.995 --> 00:04:09.524
And what we really discovered was that it's actually really complex to make something simple.
00:04:10.034 --> 00:04:10.425
Yes.
00:04:11.504 --> 00:04:12.463
It's very, very true.
00:04:13.604 --> 00:04:16.365
And so tell me a little bit about how you got started.
00:04:16.365 --> 00:04:18.343
So, who, who were your first clients?
00:04:18.343 --> 00:04:19.754
How did you find them?
00:04:20.163 --> 00:04:35.254
How did you bridge that gap that everybody seems to, you know, be concerned about, which is, you know, I, I wanna work with clients and they wanna see evidence of the work that I've done, but I'm just starting out and I know I can do it.
00:04:35.254 --> 00:04:37.473
So tell me a little bit about that part of the journey.
00:04:37.555 --> 00:04:38.524
So, Yeah.
00:04:38.524 --> 00:04:38.973
Yeah.
00:04:38.973 --> 00:04:43.684
So that's for sure one of the hardest parts when you're starting out, of course, is those first couple clients.
00:04:44.103 --> 00:04:57.653
For me, one big thing that really helped is I took a course and I'd actually been doing a lot of freelance writing very casually for a very, you know, a couple hours a week maybe for a couple years at that point while doing other stuff during the day.
00:04:58.369 --> 00:05:00.408
And it was just, it was very random.
00:05:00.468 --> 00:05:03.439
It was, it wasn't, I didn't really know what to do next.
00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:15.059
And there is of course, a ton of free information out there, obviously, but I found that when I looked at free information like just reading blog posts and, and researching on Google, there's so much contradictory stuff.
00:05:15.418 --> 00:05:20.639
There's so many different people just saying all these different things and it's so overwhelming and chaotic.
00:05:21.038 --> 00:05:24.309
So what made the difference for me and really got me from being someone who's.
00:05:24.324 --> 00:05:31.103
Writing a couple hours here and there to someone who's doing this full-time and, and supporting my, my daughter doing it too.
00:05:31.673 --> 00:05:36.574
What got me there was, was sitting down and, and paying for a course and following a system.
00:05:37.113 --> 00:05:38.944
And that really made such a big difference.
00:05:39.004 --> 00:05:44.884
And then from there, getting those first clients was really all about relationships.
00:05:44.884 --> 00:05:50.814
And I still think that that's a huge part of my, my business and getting clients and really something that I think.
00:05:51.824 --> 00:05:58.934
Partially has, has maybe been lost in some industries, is just the importance of having those relationships.
00:05:58.934 --> 00:06:04.334
And I know that, you know, social media is of course huge and of course very important to a lot of businesses.
00:06:04.733 --> 00:06:11.209
But I think sometimes people, especially when they're starting out, can be distracted by the social media and the blogging and all of those things.
00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:19.858
As opposed to the importance of really talking to people, building a network, pulling on your network and, and having those human interactions.
00:06:20.218 --> 00:06:30.449
I'm so glad that you said that because it's my lifelong mission and battle to help people understand that they, they can't get away with kinda lazy marketing, right?
00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:30.538
Mm-hmm.
00:06:30.543 --> 00:06:33.269
And then, you know, I think a lot of people get, I.
00:06:33.314 --> 00:06:39.374
Attracted to the idea of social media because they think they can just do everything from behind mm-hmm.
00:06:39.913 --> 00:06:40.514
Their computer.
00:06:40.514 --> 00:06:44.983
And it's increasingly less the case as there's more and more saturation.
00:06:44.988 --> 00:06:52.244
And you know, Instagram 10 years ago was a very different world than Instagram now, and it's almost become irrelevant to building a business.
00:06:52.603 --> 00:06:54.704
So all that social media does is.
00:06:54.908 --> 00:07:00.788
Give you a platform on which to publish your content so that when people find you, they're able to get to know you.
00:07:00.968 --> 00:07:01.209
Right.
00:07:01.449 --> 00:07:03.158
But the, you know, the.
00:07:03.793 --> 00:07:10.694
The relationship building and, and that, that's the funny thing, is like, it's actually the easiest form of marketing, but, and the most fun.
00:07:10.843 --> 00:07:11.713
Everybody, everybody.
00:07:11.713 --> 00:07:12.434
Nobody wants to do it.
00:07:12.524 --> 00:07:17.504
Everyone wants to like, so tell me a little bit more about how you've built that.
00:07:17.504 --> 00:07:24.853
Like have you systematized your relationship building and where do you, where do you focus those efforts?
00:07:25.574 --> 00:07:28.694
Yeah, so I, I have systematized it.
00:07:28.694 --> 00:07:29.473
It's pretty simple.
00:07:29.473 --> 00:07:35.233
It's just on a, a Trello board where I keep track of different people I've met and, and sort of where that relationship is.
00:07:35.733 --> 00:07:43.863
And basically I work at meeting new people, of course, and I u do that often through networking events but also just.
00:07:44.473 --> 00:07:49.004
You know, connecting with people on social media is a great way to connect with people if you try that.
00:07:49.064 --> 00:07:53.543
And different places like that to bring people, just meet new people.
00:07:53.934 --> 00:08:02.834
And then from there what I try to do is to just keep in touch with people regularly, and I actually track it, which feels a little bit it could feel a little bit fake, but I, I don't think it is fake.
00:08:02.834 --> 00:08:08.564
It's just making sure, I don't want to forget anybody or have someone who was a really great connection, who I really enjoyed talking to.
00:08:08.983 --> 00:08:12.283
You know, it's awful when you're like, Oh, I haven't spoken to them in a year.
00:08:12.283 --> 00:08:13.033
Oh shoot.
00:08:13.033 --> 00:08:14.113
I really liked them.
00:08:14.593 --> 00:08:25.874
So I do keep track of the, the people who I, I did feel like we had a good connection and, and could be a great potential client or a partner or, or just someone that I'm really enjoying talking to and learning from and connecting with.
00:08:26.365 --> 00:08:31.314
And make sure that I reach out regularly and we just keep in touch and yeah, follow each other on social media.
00:08:31.314 --> 00:08:35.215
Keep reaching out, keep suggesting things, try to be valuable and helpful to them.
00:08:35.815 --> 00:08:45.445
Obviously that's something, there's limits to how much that can scale of course, and you wouldn't wanna be spending, you know, an enormous amount of time just checking in on people.
00:08:45.445 --> 00:08:51.264
But I do think it's important to identify those valuable relationships and then to, to prioritize them.
00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:54.174
Cuz if that's a priority, like, yeah, it should be on your to-do list.
00:08:54.174 --> 00:08:59.825
It should be something that you're, you're keeping track of and making sure that that person doesn't just slip away.
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.029
But that's a fallacy, isn't it?
00:09:02.029 --> 00:09:07.309
That we have to have marketing systems that scale, that we have to have businesses that scale, right?
00:09:07.610 --> 00:09:13.309
This prevailing wisdom, that successful businesses, one that scales.
00:09:13.309 --> 00:09:14.750
I mean, what if you don't want that?
00:09:14.750 --> 00:09:15.710
Mm-hmm.
00:09:16.070 --> 00:09:16.370
Right?
00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:26.149
What if you're perfectly happy being a personal brand and a service provider and you, you know, you need five clients.
00:09:26.929 --> 00:09:27.169
Yeah.
00:09:27.965 --> 00:09:30.514
Why do, why do we need to build systems that scale?
00:09:31.024 --> 00:09:31.504
Yeah.
00:09:32.465 --> 00:09:33.424
Yeah, for me, definitely.
00:09:33.424 --> 00:09:38.125
I mean, I have a, a, a toddler and it's, you know, I don't, I don't work 40 hours a week.
00:09:38.125 --> 00:09:41.514
That's, I don't know how people can work that long with a toddler.
00:09:41.884 --> 00:09:45.934
There's always a, another disaster, you know, there's, you don't work with toddler at all.
00:09:48.154 --> 00:09:48.605
Yeah.
00:09:48.664 --> 00:09:48.965
Yeah.
00:09:48.965 --> 00:09:52.735
So I really like that, I'm able to make that decision as a, a business owner.
00:09:52.735 --> 00:10:07.134
It's one of, I think, the best parts of being a business owner is that you can say, You know, I don't have to be working more and more hours and taking on more and more clients and I can advance and feel, you know, growing my business can be growth in different way.
00:10:07.134 --> 00:10:24.225
You know, it's nice that getting to the point where I can book clients further in advance or getting to the point where, you know, there's more reliably or I'm able to choose my favorite clients a little bit more, you know, and, and really pick projects I'm super passionate about as opposed to feeling like I need to just pile on more and more and more and more.
00:10:25.529 --> 00:10:26.070
Yeah.
00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:33.029
And are, are you finding yourself sort of falling into any sort of specialization or any sort of focus as you grow?
00:10:34.330 --> 00:10:42.509
I've, that's honestly something that I'm a little bit torn about, to be completely honest, because there are of course things that I particularly like, I really love working with.
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.950
With tech because, and sciences, cuz I do have that background.
00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:55.379
So that's a really, I really love those sort of interesting you know, startups with really interesting innovations and just all the cool stuff that's going on, of course in tech these days.
00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:58.740
And I, my, you know, favorite projects are often things.
00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:00.509
I like websites, I like branding.
00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:09.460
But at the same time, I think that if I had all, you know, a host of five or 10 clients that were all that that would be boring.
00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:13.629
So it's, I I also really enjoy having, having that variety.
00:11:13.629 --> 00:11:18.529
And I think that the, the fun of learning something new I think is really what being a service provider is.
00:11:18.529 --> 00:11:30.605
So, What makes being a service provider so great to me is, is being able to really connect with people one-on-one and learn about this, this business that they created, which is so unique and there's so many different things out there.
00:11:30.605 --> 00:11:38.705
I mean, I've, I've run into so many businesses or, or stumbled upon clients that are doing stuff that, you know, I wouldn't even have realized that existed.
00:11:38.705 --> 00:11:40.144
You know, it's like, what even is?
00:11:40.429 --> 00:11:40.610
This.
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.620
But I absolutely love getting to dig into that stuff.
00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:55.230
So, no, I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'm very, very specialized in a, in a super, super specific niche because while I do have stuff I, I enjoy and, and seek out, I really love having those just surprises.
00:11:55.235 --> 00:11:57.529
And the, the interesting curve balls.
00:11:58.365 --> 00:12:02.235
I had, I did a consulting project once with a pallet company.
00:12:02.475 --> 00:12:02.565
Mm-hmm.
00:12:02.804 --> 00:12:09.315
And it's one of those things like, it's a huge business and it's, they make tons of money just tracking pallets.
00:12:11.330 --> 00:12:13.379
I would never have even known that that's a thing.
00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:18.029
Like, yeah, wooden in pallets sitting at the side of the road at somebody's house or something like that.
00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:20.250
Those things are worth a lot of money.
00:12:20.250 --> 00:12:30.750
And organizations who use them a lot in like a shipping or logistics capacity, they, they wanna know where all their pallets are because they Sure they're a huge cost of their business.
00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:35.700
So this company had created a whole like technology around tracking pellets.
00:12:36.014 --> 00:12:37.065
Very interesting.
00:12:37.125 --> 00:12:37.424
Yeah.
00:12:37.424 --> 00:12:38.054
It's stuff like that.
00:12:38.054 --> 00:12:38.924
That's just so cool.
00:12:38.924 --> 00:12:41.715
It's so, it's cool to see how the world works, you know?
00:12:41.715 --> 00:12:45.524
You just learn something new about how, the stuff you take for granted, right.
00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:47.924
And how the money flows mm-hmm.
00:12:47.931 --> 00:12:48.514
In different places.
00:12:49.634 --> 00:12:49.784
Right.
00:12:49.815 --> 00:12:49.904
Mm-hmm.
00:12:50.595 --> 00:13:01.705
So tell me, so there's, there's some aspect of creativity that needs to exist for you, obviously as a record that, you know, that like the analytical mind will take you so far.
00:13:02.274 --> 00:13:04.995
But you know, was this something that was there already?
00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.705
Was this something that you learned?
00:13:07.034 --> 00:13:08.784
Tell me, tell me more about that side of the business.
00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:10.320
Yeah.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:10.679
Yeah.
00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:18.450
So the creativity is definitely, I mean, that's something that I think philosophy and science can't, can't answer yet exactly how we do that.
00:13:18.450 --> 00:13:24.279
And it's something I've definitely always loved writing and loved creativity in lots of different forms.
00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.019
So I think that that is there as far as.
00:13:26.230 --> 00:13:29.529
Talent or whatever that means as far as innate ability.
00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:38.970
Though I do think that that many people who don't consider themselves creative really could be, or, or are if they, you know, found the right way to, to express it to access it.
00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:44.759
I think that the creativity from combining that with a business side is very interesting.
00:13:44.830 --> 00:13:50.960
Cuz creativity is something you can't necessarily control, you know, even if it's, if it's your own brain.
00:13:51.009 --> 00:14:11.544
So that's, I think something that's interesting to balance when you are creative in business is how do you have, you know, business, which of course you're meant to have things, there's deadlines, there's meetings, there's, there's schedules with this creativity, which you really can't necessarily call up on demand or make it work at all the time, you know, eight hours a day.
00:14:13.975 --> 00:14:15.894
Yeah, that's the age old problem, right?
00:14:15.894 --> 00:14:18.684
With creativity as a business offering, right?
00:14:18.684 --> 00:14:20.184
Like how do you.
00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:21.610
Trigger that on.
00:14:21.610 --> 00:14:26.259
And I know some of my creative friends just like it is a struggle.
00:14:27.009 --> 00:14:28.389
It's a struggle for them, right?
00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:33.100
Because they're just, they're like, I need to produce this thing by this time.
00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:33.190
Mm-hmm.
00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:37.360
And yet, here I am just completely blocked, or, you know.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:37.450
Mm-hmm.
00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:39.700
The energy isn't there today or whatever.
00:14:39.700 --> 00:14:40.750
And those are real things.
00:14:40.750 --> 00:14:41.799
You don't just get to.
00:14:42.355 --> 00:14:44.125
Exactly to be creative.
00:14:44.125 --> 00:14:44.485
Right.
00:14:44.815 --> 00:14:53.154
So how have you kind of worked through that and how have you sort of been able to keep that business side of the, of a very creative.
00:14:53.845 --> 00:14:59.034
Yeah, so one thing I think definitely is you really have to take burnout seriously.
00:14:59.034 --> 00:15:03.654
And I know it can sometimes feel a little cliche, like you see a lot of people talking about burnout these days.
00:15:04.085 --> 00:15:12.485
But you really have to take it seriously and consider it, you know, as a business owner from a business perspective, that this is like a very big risk and you need to.
00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:14.179
You need to be careful about burnout.
00:15:14.179 --> 00:15:16.429
You need to know what the signs are for yourself.
00:15:16.429 --> 00:15:22.070
You need to be alert to that, and you need to take action to, to help when you feel that you are burning out.
00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:22.690
Which is hard.
00:15:22.690 --> 00:15:31.750
And that definitely was something that those first couple years in business was very, you know, definitely a struggle to learn and to realize that this isn't something where you can just sort of shrug it off.
00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:40.399
You need to take it seriously when you start getting those signals that, like my brain is turning into applesauce, like it's something you need to react to.
00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:44.210
I think another thing that helps me a lot is really working.
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:47.690
I like to think of the writing and the creative process in two steps.
00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:51.580
So the step of just getting words on the page.
00:15:51.585 --> 00:15:53.679
I like to use like the sandbox metaphor.
00:15:53.684 --> 00:15:57.100
It's like putting stuff sand in the sandbox and then the step of.
00:15:57.365 --> 00:15:59.705
Shaping it into something that's great.
00:16:00.014 --> 00:16:02.445
So, you know, building the sand into a sandcastle.
00:16:02.445 --> 00:16:12.674
And I think every time I'm, if I'm feeling really stuck, it can help to, to remind myself like, okay, this is the step where I'm just putting sand in the sandbox and it doesn't have to look good.
00:16:13.164 --> 00:16:21.235
Cuz I do think that a lot of times with creativity, it's that perfectionism or that part of us that feels like we should be able to write it right.
00:16:21.549 --> 00:16:24.279
The first time or in one go or in one draft.
00:16:24.789 --> 00:16:25.840
Which is just not true.
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.210
Like, that's just not, not how writing works.
00:16:29.710 --> 00:16:29.919
No.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:43.600
One of my best friends is a, is a graphic designer and she's, you know, we're both around 50 and so she's been at it for a long time and we've been working together for many, many years and she's at the point now where she goes, you know what?
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:47.710
I'm just like, I'm giving you like a shitty first draft because.
00:16:48.815 --> 00:16:53.184
It, it makes such a difference for someone to have something to respond to, right?
00:16:53.184 --> 00:16:53.544
Mm-hmm.
00:16:53.629 --> 00:16:54.575
To react to.
00:16:54.575 --> 00:16:54.845
Absolutely.
00:16:54.934 --> 00:17:04.085
She's like, I don't care whether they like it or they don't like it, because I know it's just like, you know, getting some stuff on a page so that they can say, oh, I like this thing about this and that thing about that.
00:17:04.085 --> 00:17:04.414
Exactly.
00:17:04.625 --> 00:17:06.424
And so then we can kind of move on from there.
00:17:06.424 --> 00:17:09.365
And that's the way she approaches all of her work.
00:17:09.365 --> 00:17:09.454
Mm-hmm.
00:17:09.454 --> 00:17:12.904
And she doesn't get herself like crippled or paralyzed mm-hmm.
00:17:12.904 --> 00:17:15.394
Around whether it's, it's perfect or it's not.
00:17:15.394 --> 00:17:15.724
Right.
00:17:15.724 --> 00:17:17.884
And I think that that's a pretty unique.
00:17:18.335 --> 00:17:24.875
Approach with a lot of creatives who instead get really bent out of shape about Yeah.
00:17:25.265 --> 00:17:27.454
You know, whether it's perfect or whether it's not perfect.
00:17:28.595 --> 00:17:28.984
Yeah.
00:17:29.194 --> 00:17:30.335
I absolutely believe that.
00:17:30.335 --> 00:17:34.884
I know that one of my mentors was saying at one point that you know, aim for like b plus.
00:17:35.244 --> 00:17:41.785
Because I think that there are a lot of us who are, who are a plus kind of people, and we want that a plus and we want every single thing we make to be a plus.
00:17:42.144 --> 00:17:52.134
And of course you want your final result to be a plus, but that first draft, that first shot, like aim for B plus, like just, just do something that's pretty close and it's okay.
00:17:52.134 --> 00:17:57.865
And then you're gonna come back and you're gonna get feedback and you're gonna, you know, iterate and edit and that's how you're gonna get it to the a plus.
00:17:57.865 --> 00:17:58.315
You can't.
00:17:59.035 --> 00:18:02.335
Pound out an A plus when you, you know, sit there and type it and watch it on.
00:18:03.055 --> 00:18:18.144
So how do you, what do you say to people who, like I know very experienced copywriters who will still just agonize over the first thing that goes to a client, even though they know it's like meant to be that sort of shitty first draft, right?
00:18:18.144 --> 00:18:18.234
Mm-hmm.
00:18:18.625 --> 00:18:20.214
So, I mean, it's not gonna be shitty.
00:18:20.575 --> 00:18:21.355
It's gonna be like the.
00:18:22.424 --> 00:18:24.795
You know, good place to start First draft.
00:18:25.285 --> 00:18:25.505
Yes.
00:18:26.295 --> 00:18:33.615
So how do, how, what's your advice to sort of maybe through that, that agonizing kind of judgment?
00:18:33.644 --> 00:18:41.265
Because it is a little bit of a, a combination of you and creative works really hard because it's so open to interpretation.
00:18:42.355 --> 00:18:48.505
I think one thing that I've found is that when you, I mean that's basically, it's a question about perfectionism, right?
00:18:48.505 --> 00:18:52.255
It's that fight against the need to have every single thing be, be perfect.
00:18:52.694 --> 00:18:57.555
And obviously there's a lot to say about perfectionism, but I think that one thing that helps is.
00:18:57.974 --> 00:19:05.654
When you start releasing that and you start, you know, sending stuff to clients just to get feedback and be like, look, this isn't perfect, but like, let's, let's chat about it.
00:19:06.404 --> 00:19:14.660
You'll often find that people don't react horribly the way you might be fearing or imagining they're going to that like, oh, you had a typo in there.
00:19:14.660 --> 00:19:15.799
This is garbage.
00:19:16.190 --> 00:19:17.269
You know, people don't do that.
00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:27.589
And often the things that us, as you know, if you're an expert in your field, of course the things that you might notice or bother you, a client might not even notice.
00:19:27.589 --> 00:19:47.269
So I think that once you start releasing that and you start just trying and experimenting and letting yourself sort of do that, you know, quote, shitty first draft, even though of course it's not gonna be the that shitty You do start to find that like, you know, the sky doesn't fall and that it brings that so much value to have client input earlier.
00:19:47.369 --> 00:19:49.019
It's more efficient, honestly.
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:54.869
I mean, how frustrating is it to work so hard to perfect something and then ha be like, oh no, that's not what we wanted.
00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:56.400
We want something completely different.
00:19:56.819 --> 00:19:58.410
I mean, of course that's so frustrating.
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:00.839
And it just, I think it.
00:20:01.529 --> 00:20:04.289
It, it, it doesn't go as badly as you think it's gonna go.
00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:06.359
It's a sort of thing like, try it, it's gonna be okay.
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:09.420
And it's also, it can bring benefits.
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:12.480
I mean, getting more collaboration and more back and forth.
00:20:12.569 --> 00:20:21.039
It's, it's only gonna make your work stronger when you think of it as something you're doing collaboratively versus something that has to be sort of perfect and is a little bit untouchable.
00:20:21.775 --> 00:20:29.464
In my experience client reactions can come from so much more than just what the words on the page are.
00:20:29.585 --> 00:20:29.674
Mm-hmm.
00:20:29.914 --> 00:20:49.509
Like if your client is just in a position like this is why a lot of my copywriting clients will actually send people over to me first, because if that client really doesn't know their own business or is really like, Stuck waffling or whatever, nothing you can produce for them is gonna feel right because mm-hmm they're still conflicted about what they're trying to do from a strategic perspective.
00:20:49.869 --> 00:21:06.430
So I think there's so much more that can, that can be surfaced with, you know, that first draft that is gonna give you really good information really quickly about, you know, where your clients at and you know what they're thinking and that sort of thing.
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:07.880
Absolutely.
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:16.039
I do feel that copywriting is one of those things that's a little bit of a tip of the iceberg, sort of, of service where people think, okay, I need a copywriter.
00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:17.750
Like, okay, yeah, I need, I need this written.
00:21:18.170 --> 00:21:24.289
And you start talking, or you know, I'll start talking to clients and it's like, well, no, you kind of need, like, you need a whole strategy here.
00:21:24.289 --> 00:21:27.740
Like there's all this stuff underneath this where you thought, okay, well just write it.
00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:30.950
And like, no, you need a, you need a brand like message.
00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:31.849
You need a story.
00:21:31.849 --> 00:21:33.500
You need to like nail down your offer.
00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:35.180
You need to figure out who your audience is.
00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:40.309
It's a sort of thing where like you, it's, you know, you sort of open up the box and go, okay, there's a lot more in here.
00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:40.609
Yeah.
00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:40.970
Oh.
00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:45.109
Without that stuff, investing in creative work is actually like a total waste of money.
00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:45.289
Right.
00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:52.309
And there's, there's no way that you can be successful in the work that you're doing if that client doesn't absolute, doesn't know their own business first.
00:21:52.315 --> 00:21:52.700
Right.
00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:53.539
Absolutely.
00:21:53.545 --> 00:22:02.549
And it makes such a difference when you're talking to someone Who knows that stuff and once we have it and I do work with clients a little bit to do that sort of brand story.
00:22:02.549 --> 00:22:10.950
That's also part of what I do in getting that, that story, that messaging, like how are we gonna communicate overall beyond just how are we writing this one page or this one ad?
00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:16.980
And it makes such a difference once someone does have that nailed down and they understand it and they know how they're communicating.
00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:21.039
It's just enormous to see how much everything gets so much easier.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.930
Like the writing just flows out.
00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:24.880
It, it's so much easier.
00:22:25.944 --> 00:22:26.305
Yeah.
00:22:26.305 --> 00:22:31.825
So tell me a little bit more about how your services have evolved over the, the course of the last couple of years.
00:22:32.845 --> 00:22:43.565
Yeah, so the evolution is a lot of, because what, what we've just been talking about that I had so many clients who would come for copywriting, which I was starting when I began, I was offering, you know, very strictly writing up.
00:22:43.569 --> 00:22:45.335
You know, you send me a brief and I'll write it up.
00:22:45.845 --> 00:22:57.335
So many people didn't have that brief, you know, they didn't have the information they needed to explain exactly what they wanted or they had some of the information, but it just wasn't fully formed yet.
00:22:57.734 --> 00:23:02.835
And I found that to do the writing, my process was basically becoming that.
00:23:02.835 --> 00:23:07.154
I would figure out those brand, the brand messages, you know, figure out the audience.
00:23:07.154 --> 00:23:08.775
Like I'd basically be doing that.
00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:15.069
As like a background step to the copywriting as like a, a pre-req sort of under, under the table almost.
00:23:15.509 --> 00:23:22.950
So I've been shifting more and more to be focusing on those services because I do think that that's 90% of the project.
00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:27.990
And then once you have that and you know exactly what's my message, who am I talking to, what am I doing?
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.940
The copywriting is so easy.
00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:33.960
The copywriting just, it writes itself because you know exactly what you're saying.
00:23:34.535 --> 00:23:37.654
Yeah, that's that whole like data and analytics piece.
00:23:37.865 --> 00:23:46.835
The best copywriters, I know it, you know, they're great writers, but it's not because they're great writers that they have had the kind of success that they've had.
00:23:47.045 --> 00:23:51.184
It's because they do all this pre-work, like they do more pre-work than, mm-hmm.
00:23:51.454 --> 00:24:05.065
Anyone I've ever met from, you know, from All the way from, whether it's a formal sort of brand guidelines, like that's part of their process now and that's non-negotiable or this like very extensive research and mm-hmm.
00:24:05.144 --> 00:24:07.904
And orientation kind of exercise.
00:24:07.904 --> 00:24:17.295
And then the ones who just kind of take a brief and write are the ones who, you know, they don't write copy that is mind blowing and they're all good writers.
00:24:18.289 --> 00:24:26.930
Exactly, but being able to connect to and build like a, a unique message really comes from sort of the data side, doesn't it?
00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:27.829
Absolutely.
00:24:27.835 --> 00:24:29.089
It comes from that knowledge.
00:24:29.299 --> 00:24:29.450
Yeah.
00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:30.934
You have to have that knowledge.
00:24:31.015 --> 00:24:38.214
And I mean from a, from a business, like, you know, from the perspective of the business owner, the client, you have to have spoken to your audience.
00:24:38.214 --> 00:24:41.005
You know, you have to know what they're thinking and what they're feeling and.
00:24:41.539 --> 00:24:46.190
You know, what exactly do they want and how do they say it in their own words and all these sorts of questions.
00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:51.150
I think so much of business in general is just about research and about figuring people out.
00:24:51.150 --> 00:25:05.539
And it's another reason that I love building a business that is around relationships and networking and, and connecting with people because the closer you are to those people and to the people you're working with and serving, just the stronger and the better your business is gonna be.
00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:07.045
So, A hundred percent.
00:25:07.045 --> 00:25:11.305
I mean, everything, everything is about people and relationships and mm-hmm.
00:25:11.755 --> 00:25:13.555
Knowing people and relationships.
00:25:13.634 --> 00:25:19.134
You know, I've recently gotten more involved in a certain industry and I.
00:25:19.515 --> 00:25:27.825
The conversations I can have with the people in that industry are so much more focused and targeted because it's like about a thing.
00:25:28.184 --> 00:25:32.954
And those business owners that you're working with, I imagine like that's their life.
00:25:32.954 --> 00:25:35.474
They're so immersed in a thing.
00:25:35.474 --> 00:25:42.164
And here we are kind of going, we're looking at all sorts of different businesses, so it's really hard for us to.
00:25:43.005 --> 00:25:50.835
I think it's really hard to, to build something and communicate something when you're not really like, well immersed in mm-hmm.
00:25:51.075 --> 00:25:54.345
The business and the industry and, and at least from a cursory perspective.
00:25:54.914 --> 00:25:55.634
Absolutely.
00:25:55.755 --> 00:25:56.144
Yeah.
00:25:56.835 --> 00:25:57.464
Absolutely.
00:25:57.884 --> 00:26:00.914
And then how have you seen your clients evolve?
00:26:00.914 --> 00:26:09.525
Like, have you seen, if you think about some of the first pro folks that you worked for versus who you're working for now, has there been a journey there as well?
00:26:10.154 --> 00:26:11.625
Yeah, I definitely think so.
00:26:11.625 --> 00:26:28.934
And I think a lot of that is just building confidence, which is something that when you are, you know, starting up a new business or a new industry or, or, or venturing out on something new, so much of it about is about building that confidence internally and figuring out You know, what you're worth and what you wanna do and who you wanna talk to.
00:26:28.984 --> 00:26:39.164
So yeah, I definitely think that as I've gotten more skilled, more confident and figure out exactly what I want in my business, I'm getting better and better at connecting with the people who are right for me.
00:26:39.164 --> 00:26:40.785
Who are the clients that are gonna be.
00:26:41.329 --> 00:26:44.539
You know, giving projects that I enjoy and people I enjoy working with.
00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:54.355
I know that at the beginning I had a few clients that were, you know, sort of frustrating or kind of graded on me, and I have noticed that as time's gone by that just happens less and less and less.
00:26:54.355 --> 00:27:04.315
And I think it's because I am leaning into really getting to know people, really being authentic myself and being confident in, you know, my business and who I am and what I'm doing.
00:27:04.775 --> 00:27:08.615
And that just means that I'm working more and more with people who I genuinely enjoy.
00:27:08.815 --> 00:27:18.055
Talking to and being with, and generally, you know, genuinely care about them and their business, which makes everything obviously so much more enjoyable and more successful for everybody.
00:27:18.644 --> 00:27:34.634
I think that comes back to what you were describing early on was, you know, with your approach to, you know, making new relationships and nurturing those relationships is that, you know, you're, you're showing up pretty genuinely, pretty, you know, accurately as yourself, and I think that, mm-hmm.
00:27:34.641 --> 00:27:34.714
That.
00:27:35.345 --> 00:27:37.384
That calls in your people.
00:27:37.394 --> 00:27:37.815
Mm-hmm.
00:27:37.894 --> 00:27:39.154
And I know I'm the same way.
00:27:39.154 --> 00:27:45.154
Like I found myself at the end of my coaching practice really surrounded by people that are really my people, you know?
00:27:45.184 --> 00:27:45.305
Mm-hmm.
00:27:45.545 --> 00:27:49.174
They had gotten to know me well enough that, you know, we could.
00:27:49.785 --> 00:27:53.234
Share the same humor we could, you know, we had the same outlook.
00:27:53.234 --> 00:27:55.515
And I think you teach people how to treat you too.
00:27:55.515 --> 00:27:58.664
And that's probably something that evolves as a business owner as well.
00:27:59.234 --> 00:27:59.954
Absolutely.
00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:01.515
And I think that's something too.
00:28:01.615 --> 00:28:05.755
I know a lot of business owners struggle with the fear of sort of, Pushing anyone away.
00:28:05.755 --> 00:28:06.025
Right?
00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:08.065
Like cutting anyone out of their audience.
00:28:08.394 --> 00:28:08.515
Yeah.
00:28:08.585 --> 00:28:12.815
Which can be, and it comes up all the time in copywriting where someone's like, no, I wanna talk to everybody.
00:28:12.815 --> 00:28:14.765
Like, I don't wanna narrow this down.
00:28:14.765 --> 00:28:21.994
I don't want to use like a weird tone of, you know, not a weird, like, unusual tone of voice or unusual kind of humor or anything like that that might.
00:28:22.125 --> 00:28:23.144
Alienate somebody.
00:28:23.144 --> 00:28:41.974
And I think it's so important to, to realize and so true that the more you're willing to be authentic and the more you're willing to yeah, use a tone of voice that stands out a little bit or, you know, you don't wanna overshare your personal life, of course, but be, be authentic and be personal and connect with people and, and do stuff a little differently.
00:28:42.424 --> 00:28:53.855
Yeah, I guess technically you're gonna be pushing people away, but you're gonna be, you're gonna be drawing in the people that you really wanna be working with and you don't need to be scared of, of pushing away, you know, this, this imaginary other audience.
00:28:54.424 --> 00:28:59.045
But those new people are gonna be so much more bought in to the idea of mm-hmm.
00:28:59.285 --> 00:29:04.174
Aligning themselves with you because they see themselves in you and because they know that you're their people.
00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:04.295
Mm-hmm.
00:29:04.375 --> 00:29:08.224
So you have a much stronger relationship with those.
00:29:08.724 --> 00:29:11.065
Very likely repeat clients.
00:29:11.065 --> 00:29:11.424
Right?
00:29:11.484 --> 00:29:12.144
Exactly.
00:29:12.144 --> 00:29:12.474
Yeah.
00:29:12.535 --> 00:29:13.884
Especially as a service provider.
00:29:13.884 --> 00:29:18.625
I mean, that re relationship and the repeat clients is what is what you want, right?
00:29:18.625 --> 00:29:21.474
You want this to be a, a long-term thing.
00:29:21.865 --> 00:29:21.954
Mm-hmm.
00:29:22.805 --> 00:29:28.654
So, yeah, I think definitely learning to not be, not be scared of, you know, pushing anyone away or, or shutting people out.
00:29:29.085 --> 00:29:33.625
And letting that scare you into being really gen general and really generic and, and a little fake.
00:29:34.285 --> 00:29:37.736
Do you think that people need to, like, their writing needs to be.
00:29:39.339 --> 00:29:42.609
Very similar to how they are as people.
00:29:42.609 --> 00:29:45.940
And I'll tell you why I asked this because I'm curious about it.
00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:47.400
In person.
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:52.619
I am very like, humor driven, very sarcastic, very funny.
00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:54.539
People know me as a funny person.
00:29:55.605 --> 00:30:04.184
But when I write for my business, it's a very different style of writing and I, you know, it wouldn't work for me, it wouldn't uphold my brand.
00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:05.714
It would, it just doesn't come out.
00:30:05.954 --> 00:30:06.045
Mm-hmm.
00:30:06.285 --> 00:30:19.394
Where I'm sarcastic and funny and goofy and whatever in my writing, and Im, remember somebody saying to me once, you know, I've known you for so many years and your writing is really good, but it's not, it doesn't, like, it's not you.
00:30:19.394 --> 00:30:21.704
It's not your personality, how you are in real life.
00:30:22.275 --> 00:30:22.904
And I thought, what?
00:30:22.964 --> 00:30:27.224
But it never will be like, that's not my tone and that's not how my approach to business.
00:30:27.224 --> 00:30:34.845
And it's not like I'm dry and boring in my writing, but it tends to be a little bit more serious and it tends to be a little bit more inspirational.
00:30:34.845 --> 00:30:46.904
And it tends to be like, listen, this is my work and I'm taking it seriously and I'm mm-hmm an expert and what I'm talking about, and if I just end up zany and goofy and whatever, then I'm building a brand that doesn't feel really authentic to me.
00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:53.819
Yeah, I definitely, that is something I see a lot too, especially for personal brands or, or solopreneurs.
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:59.759
Very small businesses or people will be saying, you know, you should write the way you talk, you should write, you know, really, really be yourself.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:07.240
And I do think that it's okay to keep that line between yourself and your business even when you are a very small business or a personal brand.
00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:17.480
And I think that You know, there are issues, again, coming back to burnout of people who really make their business their whole life and let it suck up their whole life and their whole self, and it's everything.
00:31:18.029 --> 00:31:20.549
And that could be like that, that can be dangerous.
00:31:20.549 --> 00:31:21.839
I mean, you're, you're gonna burn out.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.500
Like that's that.
00:31:22.569 --> 00:31:24.759
That's gonna lead to problems sooner or later.
00:31:25.059 --> 00:31:35.140
So I think it is important and valuable to, to have that, that line between who you are, you know, with your friends, like with your family, and who your business is, even if it's very, very close to you.
00:31:35.609 --> 00:31:41.039
So yeah, I do think it's completely fine to have your business voice be tailored for your business as it should be.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:46.539
It should be tailored for your audience and what you're trying to, to present versus just tailored to you.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:54.000
At the same time though, I do think that people People can lean too much towards that side and, and come off sounding too generic.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.269
I think we all, you know, can point to entire industries where every single website is like, yeah, they can all be written by the same person.
00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:02.910
Like the whole industry's decided they use the same tone.
00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:11.549
You know, we're seeing that in tech a little bit with this particular like, brand of humor where everyone, like all these startups have the same sort of brand of humor.
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:13.069
So I think that it's.
00:32:13.075 --> 00:32:19.494
You don't have to necessarily, you know, pour your heart out on your sleeve and, and be, you know, share your complete self through your business.
00:32:19.494 --> 00:32:24.505
But I think it is important to, to look around at what people are doing and to do something different.
00:32:24.565 --> 00:32:29.154
Like, like be willing to do something a little different, to sound different, to, to shake things up.
00:32:29.944 --> 00:32:30.335
Yeah.
00:32:30.335 --> 00:32:34.954
What comes to mind are these sort of like, you know, personal brand people who mm-hmm.
00:32:35.194 --> 00:32:39.904
You know, saw someone like Asha, Aja sort of crawl, crawl up the ladder?
00:32:40.394 --> 00:32:44.984
Very early on she was OG in our space and she's actually a friend of mine and.
00:32:45.450 --> 00:32:52.769
She had lots of sweary bits, but she was an an excellent writer and she was an excellent writer.
00:32:52.769 --> 00:32:57.420
She also had this little sort of rubble tendency if you know her in person in real life.
00:32:57.424 --> 00:33:02.144
She's like, she's feisty, but she's not like, You know, rah rah, rebel.
00:33:02.414 --> 00:33:03.345
But she's smart.
00:33:03.884 --> 00:33:06.345
And I think a lot of people tried to follow that sort of mm-hmm.
00:33:06.585 --> 00:33:09.345
And so they would write, like, they would swear in all their copy.
00:33:09.345 --> 00:33:14.295
And like, I swear a lot, I swear a lot as an, as a human being, as an individual.
00:33:15.045 --> 00:33:23.384
But I don't swear in my, in my business copy because it's just not who I am as a business person like you, I get up and I talk about business, and I'm gonna talk about business.
00:33:23.474 --> 00:33:25.154
I'm gonna be a professional and I'm gonna be.
00:33:25.644 --> 00:33:32.454
You know, inspiring and I'm gonna be emotional and that sort of thing, but it's just not like, I'm not getting up there using like F bombs and everything.
00:33:32.755 --> 00:33:35.724
So I think there's like that, there was sort of that, that trend.
00:33:35.755 --> 00:33:47.130
And so I think like what the point that we're sort of trying to make is that I, you wanna appeal to your audience, but not in a way that it doesn't feel authentic, right?
00:33:47.134 --> 00:33:47.309
Mm-hmm.
00:33:47.390 --> 00:33:48.869
That doesn't feel like you.
00:33:49.970 --> 00:33:53.900
And that really does represent the brand that you wanna sort of portray, isn't it?
00:33:54.410 --> 00:34:09.260
Yeah, and I think it does come back to that, you know, people are looking for something that's a little bit easier, like maybe looking, it's almost like that sort of automating process of you just sort of adopt the tone that's a little bit dominant in your industry or that you've seen other successful people using.
00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:14.000
And it's almost like an escape from developing that really authentic tone yourself.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.360
Right.
00:34:14.539 --> 00:34:16.070
Which of course is very challenging.
00:34:16.070 --> 00:34:23.389
And that's definitely something I see a lot in copywriting projects too, where you ask someone, you know like, what's your business tone like, how, you know, what is your tone of voice guide?
00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:34.820
And a lot of businesses aren't really sure, and I find that if you're not sure about that, it's so easy to just slide into something where you're kind of copying everybody else or you're, you're kind of just.
00:34:35.264 --> 00:34:43.485
You know, a little bit wishy-washy versus it can be so beneficial to really put in the time and the energy to think about what tone do I want to have?
00:34:43.485 --> 00:34:44.835
Like, think about it strategically.
00:34:44.835 --> 00:34:46.125
What is your audience looking for?
00:34:46.125 --> 00:34:47.594
What are your competitors doing?
00:34:47.954 --> 00:34:50.054
What tone is gonna be authentic to you?
00:34:50.324 --> 00:34:55.394
It's gonna ring true to your audience, and it's gonna be, you know, a little bit different than what the other people out there are doing.
00:34:55.815 --> 00:34:58.815
And, and think about that strategically and, and, and codify it.
00:34:58.820 --> 00:34:59.864
Get it, get it out there.
00:34:59.864 --> 00:35:01.994
And then know what your, what your tone is.
00:35:02.750 --> 00:35:02.900
Okay.
00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:06.349
I've got a really like per question for you because I have to ask.
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.545
So of course we have Know cognitive technologies that are you know, arising.
00:35:13.545 --> 00:35:25.335
And I, I find it interesting to sit back and watch all of the, the pearl clutching and the hand ringing about, and you know, the protests about how these cognitive technologies are.
00:35:25.335 --> 00:35:30.434
It's gonna, you know, rid the world of all creative skill and thought.
00:35:30.434 --> 00:35:36.795
And the copywriters are the ones who are, you know, standing up and saying, this is gonna completely destroy my business.
00:35:37.335 --> 00:35:39.764
So I would lo I have opinions, but I would love to hear that.
00:35:41.025 --> 00:35:43.065
Well, I'm definitely curious what your opinions are too.
00:35:43.114 --> 00:35:47.764
Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been using the AI tools, the, the, the chat bots for sure.
00:35:48.125 --> 00:35:49.414
Experimenting with them.
00:35:49.414 --> 00:35:51.125
I found that they, they have their uses.
00:35:51.125 --> 00:35:52.954
I'm not gonna be like, oh, they're horrible.
00:35:53.264 --> 00:35:55.335
I've definitely found them useful for thump things.
00:35:55.335 --> 00:35:58.094
I have not found them to output anything.
00:35:58.144 --> 00:35:59.969
That's that's final draft ready.
00:35:59.969 --> 00:36:02.789
You know, getting back to that like shitty first draft kind of thing.
00:36:03.090 --> 00:36:06.239
They can sometimes get you to a shitty first draft sometimes.
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:15.369
But I find that, What people, it comes back to what we were saying before about how the actual writing is not the work of copywriting.
00:36:15.489 --> 00:36:22.269
So yeah, they can, they can write stuff, but the actual work that you need to do to get something good is all about that.
00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:28.420
Coming up with the idea, processing the data, figuring out, you know, what does your message need to be like from a strategic point, right?
00:36:28.425 --> 00:36:31.750
Not, not like what words go in what order, but what is the message?
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:43.300
And getting all of that down, figuring out all of that strategy, you know, what sections should be on this landing page and in what order, and what do you know, what are people could be thinking about and what's their major pain point?
00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:44.110
All of that.
00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:45.909
And then you do the writing.
00:36:45.909 --> 00:36:52.989
And the writing is, is, you know, a small percent of the work and sure, there are, there are some cases where using the AI tools can be helpful.
00:36:53.269 --> 00:36:57.199
Like I said, they don't, I haven't found any to output anything that's good enough that I would.
00:36:57.875 --> 00:36:58.355
Send it.
00:36:58.505 --> 00:37:07.905
You know, I think you have to look at the, look at these cognitive technologies and that are in a creative space and you have to say, what do, how do I define like, what's creative work?
00:37:08.144 --> 00:37:10.304
All writing is not creative work.
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:10.409
Right.
00:37:10.650 --> 00:37:10.860
Mm-hmm.
00:37:11.309 --> 00:37:15.239
And so if I'm hammering out blog posts for, you know, mm-hmm.
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:25.429
The purposes of building up my s e o or you know, just filling in gaps on a, on a site or articles or like product descriptions or something like that.
00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:25.431
Mm-hmm.
00:37:25.436 --> 00:37:26.489
There's no, there's no.
00:37:27.099 --> 00:37:29.650
Real creative work in that work.
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:35.199
It's not particularly like it requires somebody to have those creative skills.
00:37:35.650 --> 00:37:41.920
It's, that's more like collecting data and, and presenting it in a way that's like somehow cohesive.
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:45.960
So in, in a sense, those cognitive technologies are really, really great.
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:48.119
I know I use them in my work all the time, right?
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:48.210
Mm-hmm.
00:37:48.510 --> 00:37:56.039
And they're fantastic for getting, like ideas started for, I think they're more of a thinking tool than they are like an output tool.
00:37:56.369 --> 00:37:56.429
Yeah.
00:37:56.429 --> 00:38:02.670
But th those, they're never gonna be unless you get really, really good at writing prompts.
00:38:02.849 --> 00:38:05.250
And that's a, that's a skill set in itself, right?
00:38:05.250 --> 00:38:06.840
That's a creative skill in itself.
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:11.849
Total other side like conversation around mid journey and, and artists.
00:38:11.849 --> 00:38:12.269
Yeah, of course.
00:38:12.289 --> 00:38:12.670
Mid journey.
00:38:12.929 --> 00:38:13.110
Yeah.
00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:20.489
My same best friend who's a graphic graphic designer has really like dove into the ai, like the mid journey world.
00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:27.360
And what she's getting really good at is, is creating prompts to produce art that is like stunning and I've tried it.
00:38:27.775 --> 00:38:28.824
I'm shitty at it.
00:38:29.184 --> 00:38:30.534
Like I, I can't produce anything.
00:38:30.534 --> 00:38:31.045
Wonderful.
00:38:31.045 --> 00:38:34.164
So there's like this whole other skillset set that's gonna develop mm-hmm.
00:38:34.405 --> 00:38:38.695
On, on the creative side, and you're creating something new that is just developed in different ways.
00:38:39.025 --> 00:38:45.534
But on the writing side, I really believe like, because of what you've just described around the process and how important the process is.
00:38:46.184 --> 00:38:52.215
That, you know, these would become handy tools for cranking out stuff that none of us, it's like designers and logos.
00:38:52.215 --> 00:38:53.264
Nobody wants to make logos.
00:38:53.894 --> 00:38:56.835
So on the writing side, whatever the equivalent of that is.
00:38:56.875 --> 00:38:57.764
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:57.824 --> 00:39:00.554
They're gonna be really like, I think they're great idea starters.
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:05.925
I think they're great ways to get past that sort of initiation anxiety, but I just don't.
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:11.909
I think the, the trauma and the panic and the, you know, the lobbying mm-hmm.
00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:19.500
And all of the, you know, the pearl clutching around these, you know, technologies, killing creativity is just false.
00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:21.480
It's creating new economies for creativity.
00:39:21.510 --> 00:39:22.545
So, Absolutely.
00:39:22.545 --> 00:39:24.945
If anything, it makes it faster and more efficient.
00:39:24.945 --> 00:39:27.885
Like once you know, in the right places if you know how to use it.
00:39:28.304 --> 00:39:28.454
Yeah.
00:39:28.565 --> 00:39:30.905
Yeah, you just get your job done faster.
00:39:30.974 --> 00:39:40.994
I found that I'm using it mostly for the, the sort of fleshing out stage, especially when I am writing content of all sort of do not that strategic outline, you know, what do we wanna say?
00:39:41.414 --> 00:39:43.695
And then it can take that outline to a full blog.
00:39:44.085 --> 00:39:45.105
You know, like that.
00:39:45.434 --> 00:39:48.735
And then you go through and you polish and you edit and, and you make it exact, you know.
00:39:48.735 --> 00:39:49.304
Perfect.
00:39:49.815 --> 00:39:51.614
Yeah, and it just makes stuff so much faster.
00:39:51.614 --> 00:39:52.545
It's, it's great.
00:39:52.545 --> 00:39:56.744
It's like, okay, I can write a blog in, you know, half the time or, or third the time.
00:39:57.114 --> 00:39:57.115
Yeah.
00:39:57.121 --> 00:39:57.664
That's great.
00:39:58.554 --> 00:40:00.954
Yeah, I think, I think there are a lot of people that need to hear that.
00:40:03.025 --> 00:40:03.474
All right.
00:40:03.505 --> 00:40:05.695
There's one question I ask all my, all my.
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:06.699
Yes.
00:40:06.969 --> 00:40:09.760
And I would love to hear your perspective on it.
00:40:10.039 --> 00:40:16.250
What's the difference between what we sort of hear in the online business world or the business world in general?
00:40:16.250 --> 00:40:20.900
What's the difference between that and what's real about being a business owner?
00:40:22.250 --> 00:40:23.869
Yeah, that's a very good question.
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:31.545
I think that, For me, what's different about what the, you know, the perceived and the real is just how possible it is.
00:40:31.655 --> 00:40:36.514
And I know that, you know, a lot of us listening are already business owners, so we know that already.
00:40:36.885 --> 00:40:44.324
But I think a lot of people who are, who are outside the business or entrepreneurial world don't realize just how very possible it is.
00:40:44.324 --> 00:40:49.635
And I do think that part of that is because of the way we often present and talk about our businesses.
00:40:49.650 --> 00:40:54.119
We're, of course we're trying to present ourselves as, as experts and, you know, professionals and all of that.
00:40:54.119 --> 00:41:09.059
Of course you are nothing wrong with that, but I think from the outside it can give this idea that you have to like already be an expert and you have to be like super professional and, and have all these credentials and be like really, really something to be able to start a business.
00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:12.090
And what I've found is you, you can absolutely just.
00:41:12.405 --> 00:41:17.175
Start and, and figure stuff out and learn what you need to learn and, and start getting out there.
00:41:17.175 --> 00:41:23.204
And all of us have skills that other people need and that, you know, often are things that we take for granted.
00:41:23.804 --> 00:41:33.375
So yeah, I think that that's, I think that the, the way we talk about business makes it look a lot more challenging than, of course it's challenging, but make it look tr harder to get into than it actually is.
00:41:33.875 --> 00:41:39.605
Listen, I, I immersed myself into a new industry in January.
00:41:40.025 --> 00:41:42.605
Like, yeah, no background in it whatsoever.
00:41:42.605 --> 00:41:43.715
No idea.
00:41:43.744 --> 00:41:47.085
Like I worked with a couple of clients in the industry, but I.
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:48.960
Totally brand new industry.
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:57.030
And I've already gotten to the point where the, like the number one platform in the industry is asking me to be like the face of their, their lives stuff.
00:41:57.030 --> 00:41:57.090
Wow.
00:41:57.094 --> 00:41:57.960
Congrats and everything like that.
00:41:58.289 --> 00:41:58.440
Yeah.
00:41:58.530 --> 00:42:00.269
Cause you just have to like immerse yourself, right?
00:42:00.269 --> 00:42:00.630
You just, yeah.
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.639
All of this is possible.
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.519
It's so possible if you just become a student.
00:42:05.610 --> 00:42:06.000
Right?
00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:07.050
For sure.
00:42:07.349 --> 00:42:08.190
Yeah, for sure.
00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:08.909
I love that.
00:42:09.449 --> 00:42:11.820
Okay, we're coming up on the end of the interview.
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:13.409
I've loved having you here.
00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:16.110
Can you tell our listeners where they can find you?
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:18.139
Yeah, so I have a website.
00:42:18.139 --> 00:42:21.849
My business name is CEK Copywriting so you can check that out.
00:42:21.849 --> 00:42:23.590
Cce k copywriting.com.
00:42:23.590 --> 00:42:24.940
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
00:42:25.340 --> 00:42:29.449
That's where I hang out on social media and happy to, to connect with anybody and, and chat.
00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:30.679
Awesome.
00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:36.380
Well, we'll put all of your links in the show notes so that people can find you and carry on the conversation.
00:42:36.380 --> 00:42:40.030
And I definitely appreciate everything that we've touched on today.
00:42:40.460 --> 00:42:41.300
So we're gonna wrap it up.
00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:48.260
I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to chat with Cleoniki today to hear more about how her business came to be, her experiences along the way.
00:42:48.835 --> 00:42:50.844
And what the future of the business entails.
00:42:50.994 --> 00:43:03.025
And thank you so much for tuning into this episode of The Real People Real Business Show, where we get the real entrepreneurial stories and journeys that you can relate to the show notes, resources, and links from this episode are available on my website and social media platforms.
00:43:03.235 --> 00:43:10.465
If you've enjoyed today's content, I would love for you to give us a review on whatever platform you're on to help us share these genuine stories with an even bigger audience.
00:43:10.704 --> 00:43:12.085
Until next time, keep building.
00:43:12.085 --> 00:43:13.824
Keep dreaming and keep being real.