How Environmental Factors Impact Brain Development | Dr. Sue Peters

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.070 --> 00:00:01.370
Hey everyone, I'm Jay Richards.
2
00:00:01.629 --> 00:00:03.810
And I'm Jennifer Gilardi. And this is Raw.
3
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:36.200
Welcome back to The Raw Podcast. We've spent many episodes
4
00:00:36.219 --> 00:00:39.320
since the podcast began discussing how things have changed in
5
00:00:39.340 --> 00:00:41.880
the environment, whether that's the way our food is grown
6
00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.030
or social media, and their effects on American health, particularly
7
00:00:46.170 --> 00:00:50.609
young Americans. Every parent feels it. Our kids face more anxiety,
8
00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:55.630
more allergies, more attention struggles, and more developmental challenges than
9
00:00:55.829 --> 00:00:59.630
any generation before them. The struggle is real. And while
10
00:00:59.649 --> 00:01:02.770
we have some strong clues, we don't fully understand the
11
00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:05.469
impact of all the environmental changes on human health.
12
00:01:06.430 --> 00:01:09.969
Our guest today has spent her career chasing exactly this question.
13
00:01:10.530 --> 00:01:15.780
She's a developmental cognitive neuroscientist, but she's trained as an engineer. Today,
14
00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:18.099
she's going to bring that engineer's precision to one of
15
00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.560
the most urgent questions in American health. What is our
16
00:01:22.620 --> 00:01:26.180
modern environment doing to our children's brains? And she studies
17
00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:29.209
what she calls the exposome or the exposome. We'll talk
18
00:01:29.250 --> 00:01:32.030
about that in a minute. The full sum of the
19
00:01:32.090 --> 00:01:36.209
environmental exposure shaping the brain from the very first days
20
00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:36.590
of life.
21
00:01:37.340 --> 00:01:38.730
She also worked on Robert F.
22
00:01:38.750 --> 00:01:42.569
Kennedy's campaign before he joined forces with President Trump. So
23
00:01:42.629 --> 00:01:44.230
we'll ask her for some of the dirt on that
24
00:01:44.290 --> 00:01:44.709
as well.
25
00:01:45.170 --> 00:01:45.489
Dr.
26
00:01:45.549 --> 00:01:47.489
Sue Peters, welcome to the Raw podcast.
27
00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:50.069
I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much
28
00:01:50.129 --> 00:01:50.810
for inviting me.
29
00:01:50.950 --> 00:01:52.129
Yeah, very exciting.
30
00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:56.430
So you didn't take on the usual road into neuroscience.
31
00:01:56.489 --> 00:01:59.120
That wasn't where you started from the beginning. As Jay mentioned,
32
00:01:59.140 --> 00:02:03.019
you started in biomedical engineering. You co-founded a tech startup
33
00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:06.620
and studied computer science before your doctorate. So How did
34
00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:09.710
that journey lead you to the brain and brain development?
35
00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:14.460
So I started at a very young age, very interested
36
00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:18.620
in the brain. And actually, my first research project in
37
00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:23.259
high school was on the hemispheric differences in the brain
38
00:02:23.379 --> 00:02:24.759
and sex differences in the brain.
39
00:02:24.979 --> 00:02:26.400
That was a high school research?
40
00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:26.939
Yes, it was.
41
00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:27.520
Wow.
42
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.719
Light years away from where they are today.
43
00:02:29.740 --> 00:02:31.810
And actually, sex differences in the brain, that's a hot
44
00:02:31.969 --> 00:02:34.389
and very controversial topic now, maybe not in high school.
45
00:02:34.710 --> 00:02:38.009
Well, it's something that came up again in my research,
46
00:02:38.050 --> 00:02:40.930
so maybe we'll get to that. But But what happened was,
47
00:02:42.370 --> 00:02:45.069
both in high school and then in college, I became
48
00:02:46.729 --> 00:02:51.259
somewhat diverted and interested in what was happening with the
49
00:02:51.860 --> 00:02:53.870
HIV and AIDS epidemic. This was in the early 90s.
50
00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.780
And interestingly, I was working with a bunch of pre-med students.
51
00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:05.250
I was a biomedical engineer major. And we were approached
52
00:03:06.009 --> 00:03:11.090
to actually be to participate in trials for an HIV
53
00:03:11.409 --> 00:03:17.500
AIDS vaccine. Thankfully, in hindsight, I did. had the wherewithal to,
54
00:03:17.689 --> 00:03:18.719
to not participate.
55
00:03:18.750 --> 00:03:20.689
I was going to say, was a certain Dr. Fauci
56
00:03:20.729 --> 00:03:21.650
involved in this?
57
00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:25.250
Yes. And, and so he also played a role in
58
00:03:25.289 --> 00:03:29.270
my life early on, which then, um, more recently took
59
00:03:29.370 --> 00:03:33.050
quite a turn of events. So, um, in any event,
60
00:03:33.129 --> 00:03:36.330
what happened was I, um, ended up in New York
61
00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:41.009
city from, from Vanderbilt university with a, a internship working
62
00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:41.909
on that topic.
63
00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:45.129
And, um, I.
64
00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:49.879
Did not go back to finish my degree and I
65
00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:54.939
became involved in a tech startup, which, so that sort
66
00:03:54.979 --> 00:03:58.360
of took me on a different path away from biomedical engineering,
67
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.400
away from pre-med, although that was really a passion of
68
00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:03.800
mine was to go to medical school or, you know,
69
00:04:03.819 --> 00:04:07.349
a goal of mine. But what happened was I ended
70
00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:12.949
up working in this world of small computers and smart
71
00:04:12.990 --> 00:04:18.329
devices in 1999. And what the startup that I co-founded
72
00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:22.500
created was, we called the company BrainDoc, and it was
73
00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:27.819
basically designed to prepare for when these small computers would
74
00:04:27.860 --> 00:04:32.500
converge with cell phones. And as I saw it, you know,
75
00:04:32.610 --> 00:04:35.769
that was going to be the future was these smart devices,
76
00:04:35.829 --> 00:04:40.149
these smartphones. And I was very much a technologist and
77
00:04:41.110 --> 00:04:46.910
very interested in how this technology would connect to the brain.
78
00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:51.579
And so in my continued studies, I went back and
79
00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.620
studied computer science. So that sort of led me down
80
00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.610
that path. And then I started studying artificial intelligence, and
81
00:04:59.709 --> 00:05:03.620
I recognized that the part of the brain that we
82
00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:08.199
understand the least is the emotional brain and emotional intelligence.
83
00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:12.939
And so that really took me back to a childhood
84
00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:17.819
interest in the brain and neuroscience. And so when I
85
00:05:17.910 --> 00:05:23.730
started my PhD in neuroscience, I was very interested in PTSD.
86
00:05:23.870 --> 00:05:28.610
It had affected my family. But so I had sort
87
00:05:28.649 --> 00:05:32.879
of a strong interest in that. But I also had
88
00:05:32.899 --> 00:05:37.089
the opportunity to work in a lab which studied infant
89
00:05:37.129 --> 00:05:42.209
brain development and specifically autism. So at the same time,
90
00:05:42.230 --> 00:05:46.290
I was dealing with my own chronic health issues. And
91
00:05:47.230 --> 00:05:50.310
so it really, these two things started to converge in
92
00:05:50.370 --> 00:05:54.639
terms of trying to understand why I was experiencing this
93
00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.120
chronic disease that caused cognitive issues, that caused pain, and
94
00:05:59.209 --> 00:06:02.959
seemingly was very much related to sleep. So I became
95
00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:09.079
very curious about how does sleep impact cognition? And so
96
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:13.040
I was studying that in college students as it related
97
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:18.000
to post-traumatic stress disorder. But then, like I said, I
98
00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.959
had this opportunity to work in a lab that was
99
00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.290
across the hall. from the lab that I was in
100
00:06:25.550 --> 00:06:35.649
that used a technique called high-dense electroencephalography. So basically using
101
00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:42.000
neuroimaging to study infant brain development. And that particular lab
102
00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:45.959
did not study sleep, but I proposed to them that
103
00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.420
this is something we need to better understand in terms
104
00:06:48.459 --> 00:06:52.629
of how sleep is associated with brain development and cognition.
105
00:06:53.350 --> 00:06:58.220
So that's the path of how I got to that
106
00:06:58.379 --> 00:07:03.720
area of research. Now, I can talk about how that
107
00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:10.550
then led to my work at Children's Health Defense as
108
00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:16.509
a senior science fellow. As I was studying infant brain development,
109
00:07:17.910 --> 00:07:22.410
I was learning about my own health issues and specifically
110
00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:29.149
how specific epigenetic genes were playing a role in.
111
00:07:29.990 --> 00:07:34.750
What- Or epigenetic entities within the cell, presumably. So epi,
112
00:07:34.790 --> 00:07:37.250
something that's controlling things at the genetic level.
113
00:07:37.310 --> 00:07:41.170
Yes, yes. So in other words, epigenetics is something we
114
00:07:41.209 --> 00:07:45.930
study in infant brain development, and it's the relationship between
115
00:07:45.970 --> 00:07:50.029
the genes and the environment. And that opens the door
116
00:07:50.050 --> 00:07:55.649
to talking about the exposome. So in my own personal experience,
117
00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:58.589
I found out that I have a gene called the
118
00:07:58.689 --> 00:08:05.500
MTHFR gene. which has other nicknames. I have it, so.
119
00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:08.819
I know. This is family friendly, so we'll.
120
00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:10.540
Let people do that themselves.
121
00:08:11.310 --> 00:08:16.029
So I then discovered that I had this incredible toxic
122
00:08:16.089 --> 00:08:17.589
load of heavy metals in.
123
00:08:17.750 --> 00:08:19.569
Can you explain, just go back and explain what that
124
00:08:19.589 --> 00:08:20.310
gene is, the.
125
00:08:20.310 --> 00:08:24.680
MTFEFR and how it interacts with the environment?
126
00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:28.319
Because we have several things here. So you've got the genes,
127
00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:30.759
you've got the things that regulate the genes and upregulate
128
00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:36.149
or downregulate. You've got this epigenetics, so outside the genetic
129
00:08:36.169 --> 00:08:40.029
sequence that's doing stuff. And then you've introduced epigenetics. The
130
00:08:40.049 --> 00:08:42.230
environment itself is epigenetic in the sense that it's not
131
00:08:42.250 --> 00:08:44.049
in the genes. And there's a sort of feedback between
132
00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.600
those things. And I think all of this, though, it
133
00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:50.200
would it'll help us understand that stuff downstream to actually
134
00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:53.340
explain your idea of the exposome, because that's kind of
135
00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.779
the governing idea. I'm taking it. Yes. Yes.
136
00:08:57.019 --> 00:09:00.879
Well, so, you know, we in the 90s, we had
137
00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:03.600
this this breakthrough of mapping the human genome. And we
138
00:09:03.620 --> 00:09:04.080
thought that.
139
00:09:04.419 --> 00:09:07.970
Was going to be the formula for building humans. We're
140
00:09:07.990 --> 00:09:09.029
going to have the whole thing.
141
00:09:09.049 --> 00:09:09.590
That's right.
142
00:09:10.460 --> 00:09:13.259
And as it turns out, I like to talk about
143
00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.909
Darwin and Lamarck when I give lectures on this. And,
144
00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:20.669
you know, Lamarck really wasn't all that wrong about how
145
00:09:21.330 --> 00:09:25.820
the fact that the environment does impact our development. And
146
00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:31.720
that is through this process of methylation genes that we
147
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:36.450
refer to them. So the MTHFR gene, it stands for
148
00:09:36.529 --> 00:09:39.470
methyl tetrahydrofolate reductase.
149
00:09:40.269 --> 00:09:41.200
And it's a.
150
00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:48.460
It's an enzyme. It synthesizes an enzyme in your body
151
00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:55.350
that is associated with the synthesis of neurotransmitters. So it
152
00:09:55.529 --> 00:09:59.690
is associated with many mental health disorders. It also is
153
00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:09.710
associated with your ability to make the body's master antioxidant
154
00:10:09.750 --> 00:10:13.909
called glutathione and so if you have a version or
155
00:10:13.929 --> 00:10:17.750
it's we call it a snip of this methylation gene
156
00:10:19.330 --> 00:10:22.990
There are various different versions, and there's more rare versions,
157
00:10:23.049 --> 00:10:26.190
which is one that I have. It impacts your ability
158
00:10:26.269 --> 00:10:29.549
to detoxify from these environmental toxins.
159
00:10:29.629 --> 00:10:33.000
Okay, so this is something, right, that you have biologically,
160
00:10:33.019 --> 00:10:36.899
presumably genetically, so that that could mean that, you know,
161
00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:39.240
one person that doesn't have this may not be affected
162
00:10:39.340 --> 00:10:41.279
by the things in their environment in the same way
163
00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:43.039
that someone who has this would. That's the idea.
164
00:10:43.059 --> 00:10:44.600
Exactly, exactly.
165
00:10:44.620 --> 00:10:46.480
In a nutshell, could you say it makes someone more
166
00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.440
or less sensitive? to environmental toxins, more or less reactionary
167
00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:56.789
to vaccines, scents, you know, any.
168
00:10:56.690 --> 00:10:57.429
Number of things.
169
00:10:57.470 --> 00:10:59.730
Sleep, smart screens, light.
170
00:10:59.870 --> 00:11:06.350
EMFs, electromagnetic frequencies, glyphosate toxins. And so in our food toxins,
171
00:11:06.429 --> 00:11:12.299
chemicals in our food. So, yeah, so we have an
172
00:11:12.379 --> 00:11:16.929
innate ability to detoxify. But some people are at higher
173
00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:21.960
risk or more sensitive to environmental toxins. So that really
174
00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:27.419
is how that piqued my interest in terms of how
175
00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:32.629
it affected me. Then I started to question, well, is
176
00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:38.330
this potentially an area where we could study why some
177
00:11:38.470 --> 00:11:45.120
infants are more predisposed to developmental disorders. And then I
178
00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.889
throw in this sort of additional component, which is sleep,
179
00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:54.340
because that's how it manifested with me. What I discovered
180
00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:59.100
is that when you're not sleeping well, well, the disorder
181
00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:03.429
that I had was called fibromyalgia. And And it's sort
182
00:12:03.460 --> 00:12:07.019
of this cycle that goes back around and around. So
183
00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:10.210
it affects your sleep. And when you're not sleeping well
184
00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:14.669
or getting restorative sleep, you have this pain that you
185
00:12:14.710 --> 00:12:17.360
experience all day long. It affects your cognition.
186
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.059
So would that just be because sleep is really your
187
00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:24.419
time to repair and reduce inflammation and kind of recover?
188
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.980
And if you're not getting that sleep, what you already
189
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.019
have is kind of naturally exacerbated by.
190
00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:31.639
That's.
191
00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:34.940
True, but there's actually a very specific component that was
192
00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:38.950
discovered early on with fibromyalgia where you release a chemical
193
00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:42.669
while you're sleeping called chemical P and that chemical actually
194
00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:46.750
contributes to pain. So it's, it can, you're right, but
195
00:12:47.169 --> 00:12:49.970
it can get much more detailed.
196
00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:51.409
Even more specific.
197
00:12:51.649 --> 00:12:56.389
What may actually be going on. But anyway, so, so
198
00:12:56.470 --> 00:13:02.759
bringing it back to infant brain development, the, the, the
199
00:13:02.899 --> 00:13:06.289
sum of my research to put it sort of in
200
00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:12.029
a nutshell was to understand that sleep is really driving
201
00:13:12.129 --> 00:13:17.570
brain development in infancy. And, um, and so, you know,
202
00:13:17.649 --> 00:13:21.659
one of, one of my mentors, uh, Dr. Yuri Buzaki, um,
203
00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:24.860
who was a consultant and, and really helping to, uh,
204
00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:29.419
drive an interest in studying, uh, sleep in the brain,
205
00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:34.159
in the infant brain, um, points out in his book,
206
00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:38.879
Rhythms of the Brain, that sleep is involved in every
207
00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:44.620
psychiatric disorder and every cognitive disorder. And as you probably
208
00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.990
know now, when you talk about Alzheimer's, you directly connect
209
00:13:48.049 --> 00:13:50.809
it to what's happening during sleep and how sleep can,
210
00:13:52.610 --> 00:13:57.649
the neurophysiology of sleep can predict these different cognitive disorders
211
00:13:57.889 --> 00:14:02.549
and different brain-based disorders. And so that is absolutely important.
212
00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:07.840
true for developmental disorders as well. So my work was
213
00:14:08.830 --> 00:14:11.429
funded by the National Institute of Mental Health to do
214
00:14:11.529 --> 00:14:17.809
just that, to look at neurophysiologic components of sleep and
215
00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:23.950
how we could potentially find biomarkers that then predict the
216
00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:30.429
risk of developing autism, ADHD, mental health disorders, which typically
217
00:14:30.529 --> 00:14:35.440
start to appear more in adolescent years. But the role
218
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:40.360
that sleep plays in driving brain development at all these
219
00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:45.379
different ages across development, both in terms of synaptic pruning
220
00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:47.950
in the brain and the neurons, but also in terms
221
00:14:47.990 --> 00:14:49.769
of myelination patterns in the brain.
222
00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:52.950
The pruning tends to be something that happens fairly... early
223
00:14:53.330 --> 00:14:56.129
in life, right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, some of us
224
00:14:56.149 --> 00:14:58.110
that have at least read the kind of popular literature
225
00:14:58.149 --> 00:15:00.490
have all learned this idea of a window of opportunity.
226
00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:06.470
And baby's brain potentially can learn any human language if
227
00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:09.460
the child has normal functioning. And yet by age 10,
228
00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:12.190
it's very, very hard. That's the idea. And so there's
229
00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:14.610
going to be this window of opportunity, obviously, though not
230
00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:17.429
the only one, early in life in which these dynamics,
231
00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:20.039
and especially the role of sleep, I Yes.
232
00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:25.669
So that's neuroplasticity. So neuroplasticity is at its highest opportunity
233
00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:32.080
in infancy. But we now know that there is neuroplasticity
234
00:15:32.179 --> 00:15:36.710
throughout the lifespan. And there may be very much a
235
00:15:36.929 --> 00:15:39.850
direct relationship between sleep and neuroplasticity.
236
00:15:39.889 --> 00:15:42.730
When are the times? So I just heard somewhat recently
237
00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:45.169
that adolescence or the end of adolescence or something is
238
00:15:45.210 --> 00:15:48.009
another key time. And then are there other key places
239
00:15:48.110 --> 00:15:50.470
like those kind of windows? Well, yes.
240
00:15:51.250 --> 00:15:55.440
So in general, to link it to sleep, again, back
241
00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:56.090
to sleep is.
242
00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:01.750
During sleep, you have what's called slow wave activity. So
243
00:16:01.809 --> 00:16:05.470
we talk about the frequencies in the brain and I
244
00:16:05.509 --> 00:16:10.389
call them brain rhythms or oscillatory activity, brain oscillations. And
245
00:16:10.409 --> 00:16:13.990
you have the slow frequencies, delta, theta, and then you
246
00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:20.669
have faster frequencies, beta, gamma, alpha, beta, gamma. But there's
247
00:16:20.710 --> 00:16:25.029
a frequency during sleep that is a narrow within the
248
00:16:25.129 --> 00:16:29.200
alpha band. Then they're called sleep spindles. And so we
249
00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:31.860
up until about 20 years ago, I'd say, or even
250
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.929
more recently, There's a very strong debate amongst neuroscientists about
251
00:16:36.970 --> 00:16:40.340
whether these oscillations, as we refer to them, are just
252
00:16:40.389 --> 00:16:44.000
a byproduct of the brain or if they're actually functional.
253
00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:48.620
And what we have shown very much through sleep research
254
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:52.639
is that they're functional. So these frequencies interact with each
255
00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:58.690
other and perform functions like memory consolidation. So what you're
256
00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:03.779
experiencing during the day, think about a baby. their environment
257
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.549
is exposing them to all of these different things, how
258
00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:12.640
is their brain storing that information? Well, babies sleep a
259
00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:16.799
lot and they only can stay awake for certain short
260
00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.859
segments during the day until their sleep becomes consolidated over
261
00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:23.619
the first year of life. And then they become, you know,
262
00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:26.099
they sleep more at night and less during the day.
263
00:17:26.859 --> 00:17:30.890
And so what's happening during those naps is that all
264
00:17:30.930 --> 00:17:34.210
the things that they're experiencing from learning how to move
265
00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:40.009
their hands, from visual acuity, You know, so motor system,
266
00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:47.329
auditory system, listening to language, they are replaying those activities
267
00:17:47.369 --> 00:17:50.730
during sleep and it's being transferred from one region of
268
00:17:50.750 --> 00:17:53.170
the brain to another region of the brain using these
269
00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:59.230
oscillatory patterns. including sleep spindles. So I think I got
270
00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:00.910
a little bit off topic there.
271
00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:02.890
No, this is actually very helpful.
272
00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:03.940
I'm sitting here like, oh.
273
00:18:03.970 --> 00:18:05.269
No, exactly. Keep going.
274
00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:07.799
It's deep, but I think it's interesting.
275
00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:10.480
So, oh, talking about neuroplasticity.
276
00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:15.359
We talk about macro states of sleep, which I'm sure
277
00:18:15.380 --> 00:18:18.420
you're familiar with, so REM and non-REM sleep. And now
278
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.490
more people are very familiar with that because we have
279
00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:24.910
tracking or a ring and we have wearables.
280
00:18:24.950 --> 00:18:26.410
Deep sleep, REM, yeah, the whole thing.
281
00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:30.289
And actually, I was one of the first researchers to
282
00:18:30.390 --> 00:18:34.279
be funded to use these wearable devices to study sleep,
283
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:38.920
sleep and emotion and cognition. And and I then took
284
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.369
that to the infants and to the infant lab and
285
00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:47.730
and using actograph is kind of an old school device
286
00:18:47.849 --> 00:18:50.339
that we wearable device that's been used for a long
287
00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:55.740
time in sleep research. But but so so just sort
288
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.019
of more broadly, I wanted to say that that. Sleep
289
00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:02.819
is looked at as or was thought of as sort
290
00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.279
of the state of rest in the brain and where
291
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.160
nothing's really happening. It's not that important. And I've seen
292
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.579
you had recent guests on your podcast that have covered
293
00:19:11.619 --> 00:19:16.119
this topic beautifully. But what we know now is it's
294
00:19:16.339 --> 00:19:19.400
actually– it's such an active state of the brain and
295
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:23.660
such an important state of the brain that without it,
296
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:29.569
we are potentially damaging our brain and damaging our ability
297
00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:35.180
to learn and to remember our experiences. And nowhere is
298
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:41.490
this more critical than during development. And so the frequencies,
299
00:19:41.549 --> 00:19:46.130
the delta frequency, the theta frequency, and particularly the delta
300
00:19:46.170 --> 00:19:51.759
slow wave frequencies, we know that... what that component of
301
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:56.609
sleep is doing is it's actually pruning or downscaling the
302
00:19:56.789 --> 00:20:00.559
synapses in the brain. So there's a very old theory
303
00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:03.859
from the 70s, which I think is still holds true,
304
00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:10.410
that in adolescence, this pruning of synapses in the brain
305
00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:15.210
is when mental health states often appear.
306
00:20:15.329 --> 00:20:17.190
So for example, schizophrenia.
307
00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:21.980
And so the theory is that You may have some
308
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:28.150
genetic basis and you may have environmental basis that is
309
00:20:28.230 --> 00:20:30.970
set up in your brain and sort of hidden by
310
00:20:31.529 --> 00:20:37.000
the structure. But when you reach adolescence, the patterns of
311
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.400
this slow wave activity in pruning the brain, it sort
312
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.230
of reveals or uncovers, sort of like a sculptor. would
313
00:20:44.309 --> 00:20:50.730
sculpt a piece of stone. And that individual, that personality
314
00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:54.019
is coming out. And then also with it, maybe different
315
00:20:54.059 --> 00:20:58.500
types of mental health states. And so the other thing
316
00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:02.859
that's really fascinating to me about sleep is for most
317
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.259
of the period of time that it was studied, it
318
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:12.460
was studied as a central centrally controlled mechanism in the
319
00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:17.980
body and the brain. But what different types of technologies
320
00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:21.849
have allowed us to do is to understand that sleep
321
00:21:21.910 --> 00:21:26.829
is not just a centrally controlled activity in the body,
322
00:21:26.970 --> 00:21:30.710
but that there's a local component of sleep. So in
323
00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:33.950
other words, sleep is use-dependent.
324
00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:35.230
So infants.
325
00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:39.220
Well, I should say, actually, the first studies that were
326
00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:43.240
done were done in probably college students. And what they
327
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:48.619
did was they put electroencephalography on these college students, but
328
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.539
a high dense. So, you know, we think of an
329
00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:54.240
EEG or a sleep study. Typically, they might put a
330
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.460
couple of electrodes that are reading the electricity off of
331
00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:01.039
your scalp. But with high dense, we can put up
332
00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:06.000
to 256 electrodes on the scalp. And then it becomes neuroimaging.
333
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.980
Then it becomes the ability to see patterns at a
334
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.619
scale or at a high resolution that you weren't able
335
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.599
to see them before. And so in one of the
336
00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:19.099
first studies that was done, they took two groups where
337
00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.900
one spent, I think it was maybe eight hours, doing
338
00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:26.750
auditory book listening with no visual stimulation.
339
00:22:26.809 --> 00:22:28.230
The other group was.
340
00:22:29.589 --> 00:22:32.829
Playing video games with no auditory stimulation, so just visuals.
341
00:22:33.309 --> 00:22:36.109
And what that showed us by measuring the activity on
342
00:22:36.130 --> 00:22:41.430
the scalp is that sleep is use dependent. So the
343
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.440
neurons get tired out in the visual cortex.
344
00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:49.000
For the person playing. If you're using the visuals. Right. Okay.
345
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.059
Or they get tired out in the auditory cortex if
346
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.680
you're using the auditory. So that part of the brain
347
00:22:55.740 --> 00:23:00.700
essentially goes to sleep because the slow wave sleep is
348
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:07.029
restoring those neurons. And we know from animals, from like dolphins,
349
00:23:07.309 --> 00:23:11.869
that they actually have hemispheric sleep. So it wasn't a
350
00:23:11.910 --> 00:23:15.880
brand new idea. But the fact that in humans, we
351
00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:22.849
have this local phenomena is really important because It shows
352
00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:27.430
you that, as I bring it back to children and infancy,
353
00:23:27.970 --> 00:23:33.150
that babies and children need to be stimulated in all
354
00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:38.180
of these different sensory areas so that those areas of
355
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:43.140
their brain will then develop during sleep in appropriate ways.
356
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.460
So all these things. So you mentioned auditory then and visual,
357
00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:52.500
but I assume also spatial motion or tactile. experience, olfactory, taste,
358
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.700
all these kinds of things, both there is presumably some
359
00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:59.269
optimal amount of stimulation and then some optimal amount of
360
00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:04.150
rest for restoring these capacities. Because I'm wondering, because we've
361
00:24:04.170 --> 00:24:06.630
kind of got two threads of conversation going, this idea
362
00:24:06.650 --> 00:24:10.609
of this exposome so that, you know, our environment plays
363
00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:12.890
a role in our development, our biology and our health.
364
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.380
but also this kind of key role of sleep. And
365
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:20.220
I'm guessing that there's something in our modern exposome that's
366
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:24.049
messing up our sleep and causing some downstream problems, right?
367
00:24:24.089 --> 00:24:26.309
I mean, I don't want us to bury the lead.
368
00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:31.490
Yeah. Well, I think there are, as you know, there
369
00:24:31.509 --> 00:24:35.789
are many different things in our modern environment that are
370
00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:41.700
that are a problem, I can start with screens, for example.
371
00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:48.400
So screens are inhibiting our melatonin release with the blue
372
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.490
light in the screen. So we know, and that was
373
00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:54.529
only discovered maybe 15 years ago, this neuron in the
374
00:24:54.769 --> 00:24:59.309
eye that is specifically tuned to blue light, and that
375
00:24:59.369 --> 00:25:03.240
controls melatonin release in the brain. So the circadian development
376
00:25:03.299 --> 00:25:11.069
in infancy, babies don't produce melatonin until about three months
377
00:25:11.109 --> 00:25:15.750
of age. And so where are they getting it from?
378
00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:18.269
The mothers.
379
00:25:18.589 --> 00:25:22.819
And so that then brings in this question about breastfeeding
380
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:26.470
and the time of day of breastfeeding. And so breast
381
00:25:26.549 --> 00:25:33.759
milk has more melatonin in the evening as well as
382
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.019
tryptophan and has more cortisol.
383
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:36.980
In the morning.
384
00:25:37.579 --> 00:25:43.309
So these are the types and infant formula has no
385
00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:48.559
melatonin in it. So how does that then impact the
386
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:54.559
circadian development of an infant? And so that's a really
387
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:58.109
important question. But also, if you think about it, so
388
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:02.230
I have nine older siblings. My mom had, you know,
389
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:06.289
10 children from 1960 to 1974 and very busy woman.
390
00:26:06.309 --> 00:26:09.450
And so I'm staying with her, you know, visiting with
391
00:26:09.490 --> 00:26:12.819
her last night. She lives in Annapolis. And I often
392
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:18.680
get little interesting tidbits from her about infancy, because I
393
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.390
don't have children myself, but I have 16 nieces and nephews,
394
00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:23.410
so they drive my passion.
395
00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:25.809
You made up for it. I made up for you.
396
00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:28.950
And so she told me, I was explaining this to her,
397
00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:32.690
and she said, oh, even the television. And I said, well,
398
00:26:33.009 --> 00:26:35.799
I don't think the television is quite the same as
399
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:40.740
a device, a phone, in terms of inhibiting melatonin. But
400
00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:45.230
It is important to think about how a screen might
401
00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:51.309
impact a nursing mother. And she explained to me that
402
00:26:51.529 --> 00:26:54.029
she would read a book when she was nursing. And
403
00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:55.710
I thought, well, that's really, you know, we're.
404
00:26:55.630 --> 00:26:59.309
Talking about the 1960s. You're so smart, Sue. Well, I
405
00:26:59.369 --> 00:27:01.829
was not breastfed.
406
00:27:02.109 --> 00:27:04.190
But at least no one around you is watching a
407
00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:06.089
tiny blue screen.
408
00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:07.329
Yes, yes.
409
00:27:07.430 --> 00:27:11.269
I know there are probably nursing mothers watching this right
410
00:27:11.309 --> 00:27:13.490
now going, okay, wait, my mind is blown. We were
411
00:27:13.529 --> 00:27:15.029
mainly going to talk to you about sleep, and we've
412
00:27:15.309 --> 00:27:20.660
actually raised about six things. Let's say, because I just
413
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.329
want to sort of promissory note to those that are
414
00:27:23.349 --> 00:27:27.150
viewing that we're going to ask you for some practical
415
00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:29.609
advice on what people can do. Like, yeah, what's the
416
00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:33.079
low hanging fruit? Because, you know, it's unrealistic to expect
417
00:27:33.150 --> 00:27:35.740
us all to sort of, you know, return to the Paleolithic.
418
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:39.140
And most of these devices and technologies, they have a benefit.
419
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.039
We just didn't realize for the most part that they
420
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:46.430
maybe had this long term benefit. downside that's affecting your health.
421
00:27:46.490 --> 00:27:47.430
Are those any helpful?
422
00:27:47.490 --> 00:27:52.670
I bought a screen protector that's supposed to limit the
423
00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:53.910
bad light, the blue light.
424
00:27:54.009 --> 00:27:54.890
Do those work?
425
00:27:55.130 --> 00:27:59.339
Absolutely. 100%. In fact, you can buy $ 15 glasses, which
426
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.920
I did 15 years ago just when I first learned this,
427
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:08.119
the orange glasses. People say that they have different levels
428
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:09.880
of effectiveness, but the.
429
00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:10.700
Reality is.
430
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:15.440
So I heard you mention this in a previous podcast
431
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.390
when we talk about morning sunlight and the spectrum of
432
00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:23.009
morning versus evening sunlight. And so there's more blue light
433
00:28:23.349 --> 00:28:30.390
in morning light. And that inhibits the melatonin release. So,
434
00:28:30.490 --> 00:28:35.750
I mean, there's a real known neurophysiological neuron in the
435
00:28:35.970 --> 00:28:38.470
eye that actually does that. That's wild.
436
00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:42.190
Does this speak to circadian rhythm of sleep and time
437
00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:43.970
of sleep? And you know where I'm going with this.
438
00:28:44.089 --> 00:28:46.410
Yes. People are going to think that we both have
439
00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:49.539
terrible problems with sleep and we're just like doing research.
440
00:28:49.579 --> 00:28:53.740
Well, I think this is representative of the new research
441
00:28:53.779 --> 00:28:55.480
and how important sleep is.
442
00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:57.440
Everybody's talking about it finally.
443
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.279
And you're digging a little bit deep, you know, even
444
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.849
more into what we went into in a previous episode
445
00:29:02.890 --> 00:29:06.369
with Terry Crawley, but talk a little bit about the
446
00:29:06.410 --> 00:29:11.609
importance of the circadian rhythm and start school later, because
447
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.410
you are children specifically, and maybe even the daylight savings
448
00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:16.269
time and standard time.
449
00:29:16.529 --> 00:29:20.329
This is her hobby horse. I know. Single-handedly be responsible
450
00:29:20.349 --> 00:29:22.910
for keeping us on standard.
451
00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:22.750
Time, right?
452
00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:25.430
Full disclosure, we're working together a little bit on a
453
00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:27.109
policy thing on this.
454
00:29:27.390 --> 00:29:29.170
Yes, there is a little conspiracy.
455
00:29:28.670 --> 00:29:32.750
Theory going on right now. Let me just say that
456
00:29:33.509 --> 00:29:36.569
sleep is not a sexy topic. It's when you're at rest.
457
00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:36.869
It's not.
458
00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:45.460
Secretary Kennedy and HHS have done an amazing job of
459
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:51.809
focusing on food and activity and diet and exercise. Yes,
460
00:29:52.269 --> 00:29:58.049
and behavior. So getting outside, getting exposure to outside and
461
00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:03.450
how screens impact that. Diet, exercise or activity, behavior, those
462
00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:09.339
are all important things, but very important. But sleep is
463
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:12.990
gets kind of left behind and it's sort of an afterthought.
464
00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:16.670
And what I hope to be able to do is
465
00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:20.819
to help people see that it is as important as
466
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:24.220
those other two components. And what I've demonstrated, I think,
467
00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:27.200
a little bit is how when we talk about sleep
468
00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:32.680
being use dependent, that relates to activity. So when you're
469
00:30:33.009 --> 00:30:36.970
performing activity, different types of activity, it's going to help
470
00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:41.299
you have better sleep. And so Then if we talk
471
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:46.619
about your exposure to sunlight and being outside and, again,
472
00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:50.990
being active, that's also going to help you have more
473
00:30:51.230 --> 00:30:59.269
healthy sleep. So I think that people tend to frame
474
00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:03.339
things in, what am I doing while I'm awake? But
475
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.480
I've been thinking a lot about how can we get
476
00:31:06.579 --> 00:31:10.099
people more excited and interested about what's happening in your
477
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:14.359
brain and body while you're sleeping and how that relates
478
00:31:14.619 --> 00:31:17.710
to how you feel during the day, your creativity. There's
479
00:31:17.750 --> 00:31:21.269
a whole world of research about how sleep impacts creativity.
480
00:31:22.349 --> 00:31:30.470
And so with specifically related to making daylight standard time permanent,
481
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:36.799
versus making standard time permanent, we know, and this is
482
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:47.259
very much a scientifically studied topic, that morning sunlight reduces
483
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:51.539
chronic disease. So in order for us to have a
484
00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:55.539
permanent time system where there is no switching, and the
485
00:31:55.619 --> 00:31:59.289
switching we know causes problems, a lot of problems, in
486
00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:03.430
order for us to have a reduction in chronic disease,
487
00:32:03.769 --> 00:32:07.529
we need to go to standard time as our permanent.
488
00:32:07.549 --> 00:32:10.670
So this sort of optimizes for morning sunlight across the year.
489
00:32:10.690 --> 00:32:11.410
Is that the idea?
490
00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:11.890
Well, that's the thing.
491
00:32:11.910 --> 00:32:14.190
They're focusing on the switch, which is good, right? The
492
00:32:14.210 --> 00:32:17.730
switch is bad either way, but they're not getting across
493
00:32:17.750 --> 00:32:20.230
the finish line. Like you're saying, they're saying daylight savings time,
494
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.069
which is going to cause more harm than standard time.
495
00:32:23.210 --> 00:32:24.730
That's right. That's right.
496
00:32:25.259 --> 00:32:28.259
But it's funny, I talk to people about this in
497
00:32:28.299 --> 00:32:32.660
my day-to-day life regularly, and it takes about 10 minutes
498
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:36.109
of conversation before they go from, well, of course we
499
00:32:36.140 --> 00:32:40.789
want permanent daylight savings time. It's summer, that's more sunlight.
500
00:32:40.809 --> 00:32:42.809
We associate it with summer.
501
00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:46.880
And so we associate it with feeling good and until
502
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:51.049
you're able to explain how it really works. And then
503
00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:54.250
they recognize that, oh, this is a real problem.
504
00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:58.009
And even if you give them like everyday examples, for instance,
505
00:32:58.089 --> 00:33:00.650
now that we're pushing into the fall, right? End of
506
00:33:00.710 --> 00:33:03.859
summer into the fall, you notice it. Like I wake
507
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.359
up in the morning and seven o'clock starts to feel
508
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.900
like 6 a.m. It doesn't matter in the summer because
509
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.259
there's so much light, right? But now I woke up
510
00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:15.329
this morning and I was like, If my clock says 7.30,
511
00:33:15.309 --> 00:33:17.329
but I know, like I can tell by the sun,
512
00:33:18.809 --> 00:33:20.829
that's when you start to creep in to where the
513
00:33:20.849 --> 00:33:21.609
days get shorter.
514
00:33:21.630 --> 00:33:24.009
It has nothing to do with where you put the clock.
515
00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:25.349
There's just less sunlight.
516
00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:28.490
It starts to become more crucial as those days get
517
00:33:28.549 --> 00:33:29.670
shorter is what I sense.
518
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:30.339
That's right.
519
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:32.579
And then when we think about how that's going to
520
00:33:33.019 --> 00:33:38.220
affect brain development and developmental disorders, it affects you across
521
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:42.720
the lifespan. But my biggest concern is children and development.
522
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:48.640
And- and specifically how sleep is driving brain development. So
523
00:33:49.180 --> 00:33:55.329
if you're taking away morning sunlight from children, to me
524
00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:59.309
it is unimaginable what we may end up doing to
525
00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:05.960
the chronic disease epidemic in children. And I think that
526
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:10.119
message has not been heard. gotten out. It's an education issue.
527
00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:11.980
So for the opponents that would say, oh, really?
528
00:34:12.099 --> 00:34:15.300
An hour? Like, what's the difference? You know, they're kids.
529
00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:18.510
They're resilient. That's usually the argument. And an hour? And wow,
530
00:34:18.550 --> 00:34:22.489
we want more golf. Can you speak to that pushback?
531
00:34:22.570 --> 00:34:24.329
Because is it that crucial?
532
00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:28.670
It absolutely is. And I think I really see this
533
00:34:28.809 --> 00:34:31.789
also as an opportunity for us to get the message
534
00:34:31.869 --> 00:34:34.880
out about sleep as well. Sleep and circadian development go
535
00:34:34.889 --> 00:34:39.880
hand in hand. And the more recent research on circadian
536
00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:44.239
development is becoming groundbreaking. It's very new. Some of it
537
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:50.719
is very new. And so as we start to understand that,
538
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:58.469
it's critical to– so, for example, ADHD, the ADHD epidemic
539
00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:03.829
that we're in. I would argue that a huge percentage
540
00:35:03.849 --> 00:35:08.699
of children that are diagnosed with ADHD actually have sleep disorders.
541
00:35:09.550 --> 00:35:14.210
efficiency issues. So I'm not talking necessarily about sleep as
542
00:35:14.250 --> 00:35:18.170
a macro state, but sleep, the neurophysiology of sleep and
543
00:35:18.190 --> 00:35:19.409
the microstructure of sleep.
544
00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:21.449
What's actually happening? Even it looked like they were getting
545
00:35:21.469 --> 00:35:24.739
the right amount of sleep. What's actually happening during those hours?
546
00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:27.679
What is happening in their brain while they're sleeping? So
547
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:28.900
are they getting the right.
548
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.679
Kind of sleep?
549
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:35.500
And that's true for everybody. We have broad mechanisms for
550
00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:40.090
measuring sleep states, but you need You need EEG, for example,
551
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:43.309
to be able to look at these microstates. Anyway, why
552
00:35:43.789 --> 00:35:48.889
are we over-medicalizing these children and prescribing them drugs when
553
00:35:48.949 --> 00:35:52.519
we could actually be addressing what is it that's causing
554
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.079
their sleep to then cause these daytime behaviors? And that's
555
00:35:57.139 --> 00:35:58.300
my opinion. That's my view.
556
00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:58.519
Well.
557
00:35:59.090 --> 00:36:01.809
It's interesting just to culture so much of this. And
558
00:36:01.829 --> 00:36:04.079
I don't want to get into really the politics of it.
559
00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:06.650
But it is interesting because you look at some of
560
00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:10.849
the the cases going on right now, the murder trials.
561
00:36:10.869 --> 00:36:14.090
If you heard about these two kids, they are not
562
00:36:14.150 --> 00:36:15.909
what all I can think of is these are not
563
00:36:15.929 --> 00:36:18.969
well children. But the Austin Metcalf and the and the
564
00:36:19.090 --> 00:36:23.000
other kid that murdered him. Neither one of them were
565
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:26.280
very well mentally. And then you look at the Lindsay
566
00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:30.619
Clancy thing. It's like we're not well and what's driving this?
567
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:34.219
And this seems to be this perfect storm of like
568
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:40.280
you mentioned, environmental disruptions. along with not being able to
569
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.969
adapt to those quickly enough.
570
00:36:43.230 --> 00:36:44.869
And like, people are crazy.
571
00:36:44.989 --> 00:36:48.469
Well, I mean, again, it's the thing. No one was
572
00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:51.309
thinking 30 years ago about the downsides of artificial light.
573
00:36:51.329 --> 00:36:54.769
There are just so many obvious upsides. But of course,
574
00:36:54.849 --> 00:36:58.679
for most of human history, people woke up and they
575
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.360
went to bed, you know, based upon when the sun
576
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:03.900
set and when it rose. We don't do that. And
577
00:37:04.019 --> 00:37:06.320
we're able to not do it. And then it turns
578
00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:08.719
out even now that the frequency of different kinds of
579
00:37:08.739 --> 00:37:11.949
light makes a difference. And so I guess I'm hopeful
580
00:37:12.010 --> 00:37:15.429
that now that this stuff can actually be measured. that
581
00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:18.469
we'll be able to do something about it. And unfortunately,
582
00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:20.889
it's not going to be, you know, well, OK, OK,
583
00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:23.070
we're just going to live by candlelight from now on
584
00:37:23.110 --> 00:37:26.619
or something. But if we're going to enjoy the benefits,
585
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:28.880
we need to try to mitigate the downsides, which is
586
00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:31.219
it's going to require research to find out what's going on.
587
00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:33.840
And to make prudential decisions, right?
588
00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:36.719
If you can give us some more tips, like the glasses,
589
00:37:36.739 --> 00:37:38.090
incorporate those into your answers.
590
00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:40.769
Well, so let me talk. I could talk about all
591
00:37:40.829 --> 00:37:42.670
the toxins. We don't have time for that.
592
00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:43.829
But we're going to do it.
593
00:37:43.909 --> 00:37:47.449
We will do another entire episode on that because we're
594
00:37:47.489 --> 00:37:50.860
down the light, the downsides of the wrong kind of
595
00:37:50.909 --> 00:37:53.280
light and sleep sort of rabbit trail. So let's just
596
00:37:53.300 --> 00:37:53.639
follow that.
597
00:37:53.659 --> 00:37:56.900
Well. I want to talk about one that doesn't get
598
00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:00.159
a lot of attention, which is, again, from my experience
599
00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:03.889
as a sleep researcher, is fascinating to me, and it's
600
00:38:03.969 --> 00:38:10.659
electromagnetic frequency. So in my own work and in the
601
00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:13.659
work of some of my mentors and colleagues, We have
602
00:38:13.940 --> 00:38:16.780
found a way– well, I personally haven't done this work,
603
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:22.639
but they have found a way to use electromagnetic frequency
604
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.789
to actually influence these microstructural stages of sleep as a
605
00:38:27.849 --> 00:38:31.789
way to prevent or treat ADHD, for example.
606
00:38:31.809 --> 00:38:31.880
Wow.
607
00:38:32.429 --> 00:38:34.989
So what it requires is that you have an EEG
608
00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:38.349
and then you so you're you're it's called a closed
609
00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:42.260
loop system where you're measuring the brain activity. And then
610
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.920
and you think of a wave, you know, you think
611
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:48.980
of a wave and you're you're trying to enhance that
612
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.920
wave rather than obstruct it. So it's important that you
613
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.400
know when you're delivering the signal so that you're not
614
00:38:56.699 --> 00:39:02.320
obstructing it, but you're enhancing it. And this has worked.
615
00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:06.269
This has been shown to be effective in different developmental disorders.
616
00:39:08.210 --> 00:39:11.570
But what they're using is electromagnetic frequencies.
617
00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:14.849
And so imagine— Is this, again, on a device then
618
00:39:14.889 --> 00:39:18.079
that's both measuring and transmitting? Yes. Okay.
619
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.340
It's on a device. But the reason I'm using that
620
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.239
as an example is— It tells you that when you
621
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:29.369
have a device in your bedroom that's giving off electromagnetic frequencies,
622
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:30.940
it is.
623
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:36.739
Not, it's active. It's disruptive.
624
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:41.599
And it can be disrupting those sleep oscillations in your
625
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:43.380
brain that are so important.
626
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:45.199
Well, I would think that would be something that in
627
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.130
theory could be easily tested, right? In which you I
628
00:39:48.130 --> 00:39:50.449
don't know, I'm just thinking smartphones, for instance, you move
629
00:39:50.489 --> 00:39:51.429
the distance or something.
630
00:39:51.469 --> 00:39:54.170
Yes, it has been. So that leads me to a
631
00:39:55.429 --> 00:39:59.889
tip that I feel very strongly about, which is removing
632
00:39:59.969 --> 00:40:02.949
electronic devices from your sleep environment.
633
00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:03.309
Mm-hmm.
634
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:06.619
Just turning them into airplane mode work or does the
635
00:40:06.699 --> 00:40:11.329
thing have to be totally off asking for someone, asking.
636
00:40:10.429 --> 00:40:12.730
For a friend?
637
00:40:12.989 --> 00:40:15.050
I think that's the minimal that you need to do
638
00:40:15.369 --> 00:40:16.690
is turn it on to airplane mode.
639
00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:17.829
Airplane and no Wi-Fi.
640
00:40:17.889 --> 00:40:21.880
Yeah, no Wi-Fi. And I can give more specific examples
641
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:26.139
of how I've experienced that with sleep monitoring devices that
642
00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:30.659
actually use Wi-Fi. They give off a frequency in order
643
00:40:30.730 --> 00:40:32.809
to measure whether you're moving in your bed. This is
644
00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:35.650
just a home personal device that was for many years
645
00:40:36.449 --> 00:40:40.070
being used to study sleep. And it turns out that
646
00:40:40.110 --> 00:40:43.409
a certain percent of the population, myself included, was very
647
00:40:43.469 --> 00:40:47.440
sensitive to it and could actually tell when this device
648
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:51.289
was on. But some people can't. So it just speaks
649
00:40:51.429 --> 00:40:55.550
to the fact that we are all different and there
650
00:40:55.639 --> 00:41:02.460
are different sensitivities to these environmental exposures, whether it be
651
00:41:02.619 --> 00:41:05.320
toxins in the food, heavy metals, and I could talk
652
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:12.900
about heavy metals in sleep as well, and.
653
00:41:10.539 --> 00:41:11.960
Air and water pollution.
654
00:41:12.219 --> 00:41:17.440
All of these things are impacting the exposome and impacting,
655
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:22.780
most likely, They are having an impact on sleep, which
656
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:27.139
is then impacting our daytime behavior. So, you know, people
657
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:30.159
tend to think of it as just impacting your behavior
658
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:34.329
during the day or a disease state. But there's always this,
659
00:41:35.429 --> 00:41:38.590
you know, this other component that is a mechanism by
660
00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:42.190
which these toxins are impacting us.
661
00:41:42.869 --> 00:41:47.860
So for parents with kids, what would be like really
662
00:41:47.900 --> 00:41:51.119
sort of other pieces of practical advice? Keep them home
663
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:54.920
during the first period or something, you know, because I
664
00:41:54.940 --> 00:41:58.300
know a lot of people listening are parents of kids. Yeah.
665
00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:03.909
Well, I think in terms of circadian development, it's really
666
00:42:03.969 --> 00:42:10.409
important to limit screen use in the evenings. And that's
667
00:42:10.530 --> 00:42:15.340
just a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. I'm not
668
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.579
saying it's easy. I recognize that it's incredibly difficult, and
669
00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:24.250
I've witnessed it firsthand in my own family. But I
670
00:42:24.329 --> 00:42:31.090
think that because we have such firm evidence that it
671
00:42:31.289 --> 00:42:37.219
impacts the circadian rhythm of the child, And that is
672
00:42:37.389 --> 00:42:42.699
so critical for then having efficient, healthy sleep. And then
673
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:47.829
that allows the child to wake up, hopefully naturally in
674
00:42:47.869 --> 00:42:52.320
the morning, sleep through the night. And then, you know,
675
00:42:52.389 --> 00:42:57.489
exposure to morning sunlight as much as possible. So, you know,
676
00:42:57.510 --> 00:43:01.480
I you know, there are policies, obviously, like start school
677
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:05.440
later and and ditching the switch and saving standard time
678
00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:09.829
that are going to help tremendously. But. Especially for people
679
00:43:09.849 --> 00:43:12.889
that don't know to do these things.
680
00:43:12.929 --> 00:43:15.800
That just may be the stage where we are at
681
00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:18.659
the moment is just raising public awareness because you're hard
682
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.079
to get policy change if people don't know anything about it.
683
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.489
So I'm hoping, yeah, that's why we're having this conversation. Yeah.
684
00:43:24.909 --> 00:43:26.809
I want to go back to something that we were
685
00:43:26.829 --> 00:43:28.750
kind of talking about off camera, and I want to
686
00:43:28.769 --> 00:43:31.010
bring it into the conversation and tie it into something
687
00:43:31.030 --> 00:43:34.179
you said earlier about how we were used to thinking
688
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:36.739
of the brain as this central thing. And you found
689
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:39.380
out I don't understand that really, but you found out
690
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:43.630
it's more about localities. And then how that influenced your
691
00:43:43.730 --> 00:43:47.789
personal understanding of politics, philosophy and the worldview.
692
00:43:48.250 --> 00:43:50.650
I just found that such a fascinating thread.
693
00:43:50.690 --> 00:43:53.320
So I'd really like to get into, you know, and
694
00:43:53.380 --> 00:43:56.480
how that affected your participation and and Robert F.
695
00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:57.400
Kennedy's campaign.
696
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:00.940
Thank you for that question. So I I was a
697
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:07.820
lifelong liberal Democrat candidate. And, and really, um, it was, I, I,
698
00:44:08.429 --> 00:44:11.130
I grew up as a, as a Catholic. Um, but
699
00:44:11.469 --> 00:44:15.449
when I became more and more interested in science and
700
00:44:15.469 --> 00:44:24.090
then closer to starting my PhD, um, and, and working with, uh, uh, technologists, um, I,
701
00:44:24.389 --> 00:44:33.809
I had this view that to be a accepted that.
702
00:44:34.050 --> 00:44:37.050
And that became the way that I viewed the world.
703
00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:40.449
But it was as I started my Ph.D. in neuroscience
704
00:44:40.570 --> 00:44:43.869
that I started to come back to my faith in God,
705
00:44:43.969 --> 00:44:47.969
because as I learned, you know, as you're sure you've heard,
706
00:44:48.110 --> 00:44:50.989
once you ask one question or answer one question, it
707
00:44:51.110 --> 00:44:54.050
opens up a world of one hundred thousand more questions.
708
00:44:54.769 --> 00:44:58.630
And so for me, that was proof that this is that,
709
00:44:58.750 --> 00:45:03.400
you know, that God does exist. And and then Becoming
710
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:09.530
a neuroscientist and learning how the brain works, both from
711
00:45:09.590 --> 00:45:13.630
a top-down and a bottom-up model. So I think of
712
00:45:13.710 --> 00:45:21.179
it as centralized and decentralized or localized and centralized. And
713
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.360
so when I was talking about sleep being a local
714
00:45:23.420 --> 00:45:27.400
phenomenon versus just a global phenomenon, that's a perfect example
715
00:45:27.460 --> 00:45:32.530
of an area of neuroscience where we see that networks,
716
00:45:32.610 --> 00:45:37.690
brain networks, actually develop at a very local level. And
717
00:45:37.730 --> 00:45:43.639
this applies through studying these brain frequencies. The slower frequencies
718
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:47.219
are long range connections, represent long range connections, and the
719
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.739
faster frequencies are these local areas of different parts of
720
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:57.300
the brain. It turns out that for intelligence, an emergence
721
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:04.769
of intelligence, that comes from the local phenomena. So as
722
00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:12.460
local networks grow and get bigger, different functions emerge. from that.
723
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:17.280
So this is sort of a neuroscience view from my
724
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:24.849
perspective of defining intelligence and how intelligence can emerge. And
725
00:46:24.949 --> 00:46:29.849
so that really had got me to start thinking more
726
00:46:29.889 --> 00:46:34.739
about how it applies to society and politics and our nation.
727
00:46:35.179 --> 00:46:39.659
And I started to recognize that you have to have
728
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:44.239
You have to have local communities providing you with the there.
729
00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:47.739
They're the ones living in the environment in which they live.
730
00:46:47.860 --> 00:46:51.119
And so they are the ones that have the intelligence
731
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:54.260
of what they need in order to function and thrive
732
00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:58.860
and and be nourished. And so it really changed how
733
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:02.119
I looked at politics and the importance of, yes, there
734
00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:05.130
still does need to be, as in the brain, a
735
00:47:05.130 --> 00:47:09.929
top down position. control system that sort of keeps things
736
00:47:10.150 --> 00:47:17.139
in order. But without the bottom-up emergent intelligence, it all
737
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:17.440
falls apart.
738
00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:20.059
The local knowledge. I mean, this is, in American politics,
739
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.239
it's called federalism. In Catholic social teaching, it's called subsidiarity.
740
00:47:23.260 --> 00:47:26.170
But sometimes it's the people that are closest to the
741
00:47:26.210 --> 00:47:31.050
problem that are almost always most knowledgeable about what actually
742
00:47:31.090 --> 00:47:33.070
has to be dealt with. This is actually the constitutional
743
00:47:33.130 --> 00:47:35.150
order in which the federal government is supposed to do
744
00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:38.059
some things. States and local governments and families are supposed
745
00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:43.159
to be other jurisdictions. So, you know, that's wild. All
746
00:47:43.179 --> 00:47:46.219
the way from sort of brain science to subsidiarity.
747
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:50.380
Yeah. And that's what you just described was new to me.
748
00:47:50.550 --> 00:47:54.929
So I came at this through science. And as I
749
00:47:55.210 --> 00:47:58.789
started to question why we were, as I was studying
750
00:47:58.809 --> 00:48:02.030
different brain development and learning about my own toxicity from
751
00:48:02.090 --> 00:48:04.650
heavy metals, I started to question why are we injecting
752
00:48:05.349 --> 00:48:09.840
these neurotoxins into healthy babies. And that's what led me
753
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:13.599
to discover Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 's work. And then
754
00:48:14.139 --> 00:48:17.469
during COVID, I had the opportunity to become a senior
755
00:48:17.510 --> 00:48:22.030
science fellow at Children's Health Defense. And and so that
756
00:48:22.219 --> 00:48:25.360
really opened the door for me into other areas of
757
00:48:25.460 --> 00:48:30.139
research as they relate to the covid vaccine and women's health.
758
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:34.159
But then I had no idea he was going to
759
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:38.230
run for president. But on December 17th, 2022, I had
760
00:48:38.289 --> 00:48:41.929
this very spiritual experience where it was like a ton
761
00:48:41.969 --> 00:48:45.969
of bricks hit my heart and I knew he was
762
00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:47.909
going to be running for president. It was just it
763
00:48:47.949 --> 00:48:53.679
was it was just spiritual. And so about six months later,
764
00:48:53.699 --> 00:48:56.280
I was given the opportunity to work for his campaign.
765
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:04.010
And that really was my foray into this brand new
766
00:49:04.070 --> 00:49:09.650
world of politics, which started off as him obviously running
767
00:49:10.750 --> 00:49:14.469
in the Democrat primary, but then as an independent candidate.
768
00:49:14.750 --> 00:49:20.360
And I had the opportunity to help run the ballot
769
00:49:20.409 --> 00:49:22.840
access to get him on the ballot in all 50 states.
770
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:27.260
So that really allowed me to experience also this sort
771
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:33.739
of local phenomena of what ballot access in every state
772
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:38.340
is different. And it was one of the most challenging
773
00:49:38.500 --> 00:49:42.179
things I ever went through in my life. And I
774
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:42.760
learned a lot.
775
00:49:42.780 --> 00:49:46.420
I mean, it's, it's unbelievable to look back on it now.
776
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:48.730
It's been, we're, as we're doing this interview, it's almost
777
00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:51.889
to the day, two years since Kennedy endorsed Donald Trump
778
00:49:51.949 --> 00:49:54.469
and we got the, the Maha Maga coalition or whatever
779
00:49:54.489 --> 00:49:55.829
you want to call it. But I, you know, I
780
00:49:55.989 --> 00:49:57.650
know we were, I think it's one of the most
781
00:49:57.730 --> 00:50:02.139
important kind of political realignments in American history. And it's
782
00:50:03.340 --> 00:50:07.639
singularly responsible for Everyone talking about chronic disease in general
783
00:50:07.659 --> 00:50:10.440
and childhood chronic disease in particular wouldn't be happening right
784
00:50:10.500 --> 00:50:11.219
now if it weren't for that.
785
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:17.260
You know, his his the main motto of his campaign,
786
00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:20.829
at least during the Democrat portion, which carried through to
787
00:50:20.869 --> 00:50:25.550
the independent, but was heal the divide. And and and
788
00:50:25.789 --> 00:50:29.530
I think when you talk about Maha and how that
789
00:50:29.590 --> 00:50:35.960
has bridged coalitions, it's an example. Even though it's still,
790
00:50:36.219 --> 00:50:38.159
you know, there's a separation.
791
00:50:38.179 --> 00:50:39.500
Yeah, there's a left-right dynamic.
792
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:40.099
There is.
793
00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:44.480
And it's beautiful to see how many people have been
794
00:50:44.539 --> 00:50:49.280
able to walk across that divide and say this, as
795
00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:53.900
Secretary Kennedy himself said on that infamous day, we need
796
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:54.420
to care more.
797
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:56.940
We're about our children. Yeah.
798
00:50:57.380 --> 00:50:59.179
And then then how much we hate each other.
799
00:50:59.219 --> 00:50:59.619
Yeah. Yeah.
800
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:00.019
Yeah.
801
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.159
Yeah. And it's now been adapted in many different ways.
802
00:51:03.219 --> 00:51:03.699
Yeah.
803
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:05.420
Well, I think this reinforces the theme.
804
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:07.940
I've said it probably five times on this show that
805
00:51:09.420 --> 00:51:12.500
all of us looking at your history, I feel like
806
00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:14.679
we ended this podcast with your story. We could have
807
00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:17.539
just started a whole other one about a whole other topics.
808
00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:19.480
But we all have.
809
00:51:19.420 --> 00:51:22.719
Such varied life experiences that have brought us to this moment.
810
00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:25.610
Like Sue and I probably never would have been friends.
811
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:29.409
In another lifetime or met or anything.
812
00:51:29.449 --> 00:51:31.730
And like, I mean, I think people can look back
813
00:51:31.789 --> 00:51:34.230
on their lives and see that anyway, but particularly in
814
00:51:34.269 --> 00:51:39.250
this political moment and this this cultural moment. So, Sue Peters,
815
00:51:39.289 --> 00:51:40.960
thank you so, so much for joining us.
816
00:51:41.030 --> 00:51:41.730
And I really do.
817
00:51:41.789 --> 00:51:43.849
I feel like there's a million different other threads we
818
00:51:43.869 --> 00:51:45.769
could have pulled on and we'll definitely have you back.
819
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:49.159
It was super fun, and I'm incredibly grateful to both
820
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:51.679
of you for this podcast and for having me on
821
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:52.300
the show.
822
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:52.780
Thank you.
823
00:51:53.059 --> 00:51:56.039
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Raw.
824
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.539
If you found this conversation with Dr. Peters or any
825
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:02.480
Raw conversation helpful, remember to share it with a friend,
826
00:52:02.739 --> 00:52:05.699
a coworker, or maybe as a gentle nudge to remind
827
00:52:05.780 --> 00:52:08.739
someone to take the steps they need to get themselves
828
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:11.849
and their families just a little bit healthier. Remember, we
829
00:52:11.869 --> 00:52:14.679
can't blame government for everything. A lot of this is
830
00:52:14.780 --> 00:52:16.039
on us. Until next time.