Gitte: Chief Operating Officer (COO), General Counsel, Degrees in Law in Germany

WEBVTT
00:00:02.100 --> 00:00:04.679
Thank you for joining us today on Paths in Progress.
00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:06.509
I'm your host, Carrie Young.
00:00:07.049 --> 00:00:20.460
On this podcast, people in a variety of career fields, talk about their journey from choosing their college, deciding which majors and minors to pursue, their first jobs out of college, and all of the hurdles, detours and victories along their path through today.
00:00:21.030 --> 00:00:28.469
Our goal is to help students hear about a variety of exciting opportunities out there and understand what day-to-day life is like in these careers.
00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:31.789
I hope you enjoy and learn from our story today.
00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:32.960
Thanks for listening.
00:00:33.963 --> 00:00:34.624
Hi everyone.
00:00:34.624 --> 00:00:36.213
Thanks for joining us today.
00:00:36.393 --> 00:00:38.084
We are here today with Gitte.
00:00:38.344 --> 00:00:44.164
She is a COO, a Chief Operating Officer, and she has also been a general counsel.
00:00:44.613 --> 00:00:48.603
All of her degrees are in law, both at the bachelor's and master's level.
00:00:48.603 --> 00:01:00.194
And she is going to explain to us how that worked because she did her education outside of the United States and the law education is a lot different where she got her education.
00:01:00.463 --> 00:01:02.713
So Gitte, thanks so much for joining us today.
00:01:03.914 --> 00:01:05.233
Thanks Carrie, for having me.
00:01:05.233 --> 00:01:05.834
It's a pleasure.
00:01:07.034 --> 00:01:08.144
I'm so glad to have you.
00:01:08.144 --> 00:01:10.694
I'm really interested to hear about your story.
00:01:11.063 --> 00:01:23.103
First of all, I guess before we get started with your journey chronologically, can you go ahead and explain to us, how your education worked in law and where you received that education and kind of what the process was for you?
00:01:24.093 --> 00:01:24.843
Absolutely.
00:01:25.563 --> 00:01:29.313
So Kathy, as your listeners can probably hear, I am from Germany.
00:01:29.733 --> 00:01:34.834
I have this heavy German accent, and this is also where I got my education in law.
00:01:35.073 --> 00:01:42.993
And how it works in Germany is that you go to university for a couple of years where you do all the theoretical stuff.
00:01:42.993 --> 00:01:49.513
You take your exams in the different fields of law, but then you only qualify for the first state exam.
00:01:49.513 --> 00:01:51.853
And this has a limited exposure.
00:01:51.944 --> 00:01:55.933
So you can't be admitted to the bar with just the first state exam.
00:01:56.144 --> 00:01:59.713
To be admitted to the bar, you need a second state exam.
00:01:59.924 --> 00:02:05.444
And this second state exam consists of roughly two years of practical education.
00:02:05.853 --> 00:02:07.754
Again in all fields of law.
00:02:07.754 --> 00:02:24.084
You are working with the prosecutor's office, you are working with the court, you're working in the administration, you are working in private practice, and at the end you take a second state exam and only when you pass that one you are fully qualified lawyer according to Germany
00:02:25.014 --> 00:02:25.693
Okay.
00:02:25.924 --> 00:02:31.104
So I'm sure we'll get into some details about that on your own journey as we go through your story.
00:02:31.153 --> 00:02:48.193
Can you take us back to your teenage years when you were in school, before you pursued university work, and just kind of tell us what you were thinking about at the beginning of that journey, and you know, why you pursued the track you pursued and what made you interested in that in the first place?
00:02:49.373 --> 00:02:53.943
I think there are two things that got me to decide to study law.
00:02:54.334 --> 00:02:59.899
And one is my father's a lawyer himself and, he used to be in companies.
00:02:59.899 --> 00:03:02.959
So he was an in-house counsel and he loved his work.
00:03:03.408 --> 00:03:06.049
So he came home enlightened, told stories.
00:03:06.139 --> 00:03:09.389
He just loved being a lawyer, as an in-house.
00:03:09.718 --> 00:03:14.098
And so I grew up with that spirit of being a lawyer is a great thing.
00:03:14.433 --> 00:03:14.854
Mm-hmm.
00:03:14.908 --> 00:03:18.799
And then there is a second piece, and this is, I was brought up in Eastern Germany.
00:03:19.308 --> 00:03:22.399
I was about 13 years old when the wall came down.
00:03:22.519 --> 00:03:25.399
And obviously this was a very moving experience.
00:03:25.399 --> 00:03:44.829
And when you are going through these life changing experiences and you learn bit by bit about the injustice of the system you've been brought up in and, you know, people that have suffered from injustice, I think it kind of like triggers something in you, that makes you want to, or at least it was for me that I wanted to do something good.
00:03:45.429 --> 00:03:52.329
I wanted to do justice, I wanted to help people, as funny as it sounds, and I think it's a good motivation.
00:03:52.329 --> 00:04:04.929
So these two things were really, it's my dad always being excited about his work and, um, the experience I went through with being brought up in Eastern Germany and learning about the injustice after the war came down.
00:04:05.528 --> 00:04:06.218
Wow.
00:04:06.338 --> 00:04:08.889
Well, I know we have some younger students listening.
00:04:08.889 --> 00:04:21.298
I remember when the wall came down, but, perhaps people that are listening may not have been born yet or don't have a memory of it, so I would highly suggest, looking into that just so you can get some context around what gets us talking about.
00:04:21.509 --> 00:04:37.889
But I do believe that a lot of students in the United States right now understand, wanting to fight injustice and seeing things happening around them that perhaps inspire them to want to work in this field.
00:04:38.168 --> 00:04:47.798
I was just reading, I think yesterday that law school applications are kind of at a record high right now in the United States, which is not surprising given everything that's going on.
00:04:48.338 --> 00:04:58.379
So, I think students can at least relate to that if they don't know about the particular event you're referring to, at least, hopefully that, that feeling they can relate to that right now for sure.
00:04:59.678 --> 00:05:00.249
Yeah, I see.
00:05:00.293 --> 00:05:09.653
I strongly believe when you choose your studies, obviously you are looking into kind of like what your parents do, what your surroundings do, you're looking at role models you're tied to.
00:05:10.014 --> 00:05:19.944
But I strongly believe when you're thinking about making the decision, ultimately don't just look at the economics and don't just look what people tell you, but listen to your instincts.
00:05:20.213 --> 00:05:20.303
Mm-hmm.
00:05:20.543 --> 00:05:25.374
That's probably really the best advice that I can give for somebody who needs to make the choice.
00:05:25.374 --> 00:05:30.874
And I mean, now the world is much bigger and the opportunities and are much broader.
00:05:30.874 --> 00:05:39.483
And obviously every year the professional landscape changes, with new technologies, digitalization, and everything coming up.
00:05:39.694 --> 00:05:44.653
So I think you are your best guardian and, yeah, North Star to take this decision.
00:05:45.178 --> 00:05:46.019
Absolutely.
00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:54.538
So when you were deciding where to attend school, I know things are a lot different now in general than they were when we were in school.
00:05:54.858 --> 00:06:02.978
Things have gotten just very intense and competitive and, lots of layers and planning ahead and everything.
00:06:02.978 --> 00:06:08.723
But what was your experience like, applying to university and deciding where you wanted to attend?
00:06:09.504 --> 00:06:18.009
Well, law is one of the studies, that in Germany you can't just study it by applying to university, you need certain scores at school.
00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:26.209
So it was pretty similar to what I think is happening these days, that you have to work hard to obtain the choice.
00:06:26.713 --> 00:06:27.553
And I worked hard.
00:06:27.553 --> 00:06:32.064
I was lucky enough to be able to apply to literally every university I wanted to go to.
00:06:32.723 --> 00:06:44.733
And ultimately my choice, I applied to a couple of universities, but my choice went to university that was offering a dual study, which was combining law and economics.
00:06:45.334 --> 00:06:59.343
So I thought it's probably not a bad thing to understand bits and pieces of economics, when you're a lawyer, because I always believe that the laws, the legislation, whatever it is, it's just your toolkit.
00:06:59.793 --> 00:07:03.213
But what you make out of it is to understand the impact you're having.
00:07:03.213 --> 00:07:09.303
And obviously I was inspired by my dad, so I wanted to look into an in-house career, and that was, that was it.
00:07:09.303 --> 00:07:10.353
So I had the choice.
00:07:10.353 --> 00:07:16.543
I was really lucky, but also benefited from studying hard, to apply where I wanna go.
00:07:16.978 --> 00:07:17.548
Yeah.
00:07:18.298 --> 00:07:40.108
So as you were going through school, were there any particular courses that you took or any particular, like internships or experiences that you had that you felt had a strong impact on you personally or perhaps had a large impact on you, like making decisions about what you felt like you wanted to do in the future?
00:07:40.769 --> 00:07:46.949
Mm, not so much because I have to admit, I was pretty disappointed when I started to study law.
00:07:46.949 --> 00:07:51.728
You look, you're coming in there and you think like, Hey, I wanna improve the world.
00:07:51.728 --> 00:07:53.139
I wanna have an impact.
00:07:53.139 --> 00:07:54.819
I wanna fight injustice.
00:07:55.178 --> 00:07:59.738
I wanna become this happy lawyer as my dad was at that point.
00:07:59.738 --> 00:08:01.819
And, then all the theory is hitting you.
00:08:02.014 --> 00:08:02.074
Hmm.
00:08:02.494 --> 00:08:08.463
And it has nothing to do, at least in Germany, with the reality or what you think law should be about.
00:08:08.733 --> 00:08:14.093
It's pure theory and it, feels like, yeah, something you will never, ever be able to connect to.
00:08:14.093 --> 00:08:16.434
So I struggled quite a bit.
00:08:16.923 --> 00:08:20.624
I had some great practical experiences.
00:08:20.653 --> 00:08:23.684
I worked as at Baker McKenzie.
00:08:24.043 --> 00:08:26.113
I worked at different law firms.
00:08:26.723 --> 00:08:32.323
I worked for one of the scholars at the university, in public law, which was very interesting.
00:08:32.323 --> 00:08:34.484
So I deep dived into constitutional law.
00:08:34.844 --> 00:08:44.653
So I did a lot of things, but I felt like this is totally disconnected from what I wanted to do, and I just pushed through to, to get my exam.
00:08:45.474 --> 00:08:50.394
I speeded through the, through university because I felt, well, look, there must be something different.
00:08:50.884 --> 00:08:54.573
I was considering to change studies like one year in.
00:08:55.443 --> 00:08:56.043
Oh, wow.
00:08:56.313 --> 00:09:09.214
I think a lot of students can relate to having to, especially taking a lot of foundational courses or a lot of theory courses or a lot of even perhaps historical courses and whatever field you're studying.
00:09:09.514 --> 00:09:17.673
I know over the years, I've talked to a lot of students, you know, they've been frustrated with the class and said something like, am I ever gonna actually need this?
00:09:17.673 --> 00:09:20.943
Like, am I ever going to use this part?
00:09:20.943 --> 00:09:25.144
Or do I just have to memorize it now for these exams and then I'll never use it again?
00:09:25.144 --> 00:09:25.533
You know?
00:09:25.774 --> 00:09:32.443
So I think that's definitely a common sentiment with students across a lot of programs for sure.
00:09:32.964 --> 00:09:37.543
And I don't wanna sound paternal, but in hindsight I would answer this question yes.
00:09:37.869 --> 00:09:40.538
You don't need a lot of it, but you need everything.
00:09:41.798 --> 00:09:42.190
Right, right.
00:09:42.219 --> 00:09:42.428
Yeah.
00:09:42.428 --> 00:09:53.269
It's kind of like, see, what I only found out later on is that you're doing all this to be trained in a certain way of thinking, in a certain way of approaching problems.
00:09:53.269 --> 00:09:58.009
When you are great in your job, and I think this applies to lawyers, engineers, whatever.
00:09:58.548 --> 00:10:06.399
It's not that you have exactly the answer, but you have a structure to figure out what the problem is and how to best solve it.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:11.158
So I would say yes, what you memorize, you probably don't need 90% of it ever again.
00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:21.708
But by doing it over and over and over again in a very similar structure, trains you to approach whatever is thrown at your way in your professional life.
00:10:22.099 --> 00:10:30.688
But I only learned this far into my professional career where I had this aha moment and say, aha, this is why I did that.
00:10:31.149 --> 00:10:32.714
Now I get it.
00:10:33.974 --> 00:10:36.043
But there are areas you can completely ignore.
00:10:36.043 --> 00:10:36.494
Yeah.
00:10:36.943 --> 00:10:41.203
Well, and it contributes to your overall like comprehensive understanding, right?
00:10:41.203 --> 00:10:50.203
And everything that you're putting together that will help you, like you said, help you to think a certain way and help you form your thoughts later that you may not even realize where some of it's coming from, you know?
00:10:50.203 --> 00:10:54.134
But it's coming from a lot of those foundational things that you had to learn.
00:10:54.134 --> 00:11:00.374
But yes, of course, we've all had classes where we've learned the things and never thought about them again.
00:11:01.813 --> 00:11:02.173
Sure.
00:11:02.173 --> 00:11:05.163
I think that happens to everyone in some kind of context.
00:11:05.163 --> 00:11:05.673
For sure.
00:11:06.033 --> 00:11:12.573
So as I know you said you were a little discouraged as you were going through it, was there something in particular that just kept you going?
00:11:12.604 --> 00:11:20.323
Was that like the initial idea of watching your dad and wanting to like make your impact on the world and you just thought, okay, I just have to get through this.
00:11:20.323 --> 00:11:22.214
Is that kind of what kept you going?
00:11:23.114 --> 00:11:24.854
I think in a way yes.
00:11:24.854 --> 00:11:36.214
And obviously when you're studying law, at least in Germany, I don't know about the US that much, but, at least in Germany, everyone tells you you can do with a lost, studying law allows you to do whatever you want.
00:11:36.634 --> 00:11:36.754
Yeah.
00:11:36.783 --> 00:11:46.543
So I felt like, okay, even if that is not my profession, I get the foundation, I get the academic credits, and I can still take a decision.
00:11:46.543 --> 00:11:52.333
And that certainly contributed to my eagerness to finish university, the fastest possible time.
00:11:52.859 --> 00:11:53.158
Okay.
00:11:53.208 --> 00:12:08.499
And I know in the United States Law school has the reputation of, you know, you basically barely sleep for a few years because you're cramming so much information into your head and you can't have very much of a social life or family life outside of that.
00:12:08.499 --> 00:12:09.489
It's very difficult.
00:12:09.489 --> 00:12:14.318
So is that kind of a similar experience in Germany or is that what you experienced?
00:12:15.188 --> 00:12:16.058
It depends.
00:12:16.568 --> 00:12:18.489
There are times of high intensity.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:19.089
Mm-hmm.
00:12:19.328 --> 00:12:30.729
Uh, but what I think is also a big different university and Carrie, I'm not brought up in the US so I might make a mistake assuming that a university in the US is pretty expensive.
00:12:31.249 --> 00:12:32.629
In Germany it's for free.
00:12:32.749 --> 00:12:38.178
Obviously you have to support your cost of living, but you're not paying anything for your education.
00:12:38.538 --> 00:12:38.808
Yeah.
00:12:38.808 --> 00:12:40.759
At least at the public universities.
00:12:41.339 --> 00:12:42.658
That has changed a little bit.
00:12:42.658 --> 00:12:49.448
There are private universities now, but, you can study literally for free as long as you support your living.
00:12:49.749 --> 00:12:50.649
That's not easy.
00:12:50.859 --> 00:12:59.678
That's not easy, especially when you're studying, having studies where you have to work 24 7 and you can't just kind of like do a side job or whatsoever.
00:13:00.099 --> 00:13:02.899
So, it's different in Germany.
00:13:02.899 --> 00:13:07.879
So I think work life balance is certainly a bit better in Germany.
00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.509
And I was able to work, I worked at the university for a scholar.
00:13:11.808 --> 00:13:13.698
I worked at an Italian restaurant.
00:13:13.938 --> 00:13:16.548
I was supported by my parents, but that was far too little.
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.578
So, I worked beside and I still managed to do my studies.
00:13:21.028 --> 00:13:25.288
And it's also kind of like with law in Germany you have periods of intensity.
00:13:25.739 --> 00:13:26.009
Yeah.
00:13:26.249 --> 00:13:32.428
Where you just spending your hours at the library where you're studying for your exam and then you have downtime.
00:13:32.803 --> 00:13:33.163
Yeah.
00:13:33.374 --> 00:13:37.739
Where you do your practical experiences, which comes usually with a little less work.
00:13:38.038 --> 00:13:40.139
I think it's very different to the US.
00:13:40.589 --> 00:13:41.068
Yeah.
00:13:41.668 --> 00:13:45.778
I almost wanna take a pause for everyone who just had a heart attack that you had a free education.
00:13:46.714 --> 00:13:47.354
I can imagine.
00:13:47.969 --> 00:13:48.599
I can imagine.
00:13:48.599 --> 00:13:53.068
It was a great education and I mean, shouldn't it be that way, for everyone?
00:13:53.068 --> 00:13:53.158
Mm-hmm.
00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:54.089
But that's probably, yeah.
00:13:54.389 --> 00:13:57.509
Very, very lengthy discussion and Oh, yeah.
00:13:57.558 --> 00:14:02.519
What I learned, I was doing a Harvard Business School, class two years ago.
00:14:03.479 --> 00:14:18.399
And what I noticed is obviously this is extremely expensive, but it also holds everyone who's teaching you and holds the entire university accountable to give you top education, to be deductible, at the state of the art.
00:14:18.448 --> 00:14:20.578
The facility is amazing.
00:14:20.818 --> 00:14:29.259
So I felt maybe there is a balance in between because what you quite often find in Germany is there's no encouragement.
00:14:29.438 --> 00:14:29.649
Yeah.
00:14:29.649 --> 00:14:34.198
Because scholars or, professors, teachers are paid by the state.
00:14:34.739 --> 00:14:36.119
You're not contributing.
00:14:36.119 --> 00:14:40.668
So I felt there's probably something also to the piece of paying for it.
00:14:41.158 --> 00:14:43.139
So I mean, this is how we all work.
00:14:43.188 --> 00:14:44.808
We only give something value.
00:14:45.318 --> 00:14:48.918
We pay for, unfortunately, but it should be in between.
00:14:48.918 --> 00:14:54.048
It should be equal access to opportunities no matter what your economic background.
00:14:54.109 --> 00:14:54.198
Right?
00:14:54.589 --> 00:14:55.729
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:55.729 --> 00:15:06.318
That's a really good point that the universities in the United States really do have an obligation to customer service and providing a product'cause it's a competitive market, right?
00:15:06.318 --> 00:15:10.109
To get students Absolutely to come to your university and to get that enrollment.
00:15:10.109 --> 00:15:11.038
So that is true.
00:15:11.038 --> 00:15:14.639
And I, another big topic in the United States is student loan debt.
00:15:14.668 --> 00:15:19.948
You know, a lot of students graduate with a significant amount of debt because they've taken out loans for their education.
00:15:19.948 --> 00:15:25.499
So that's a whole nother topic, but it is good for students to just hear about different experiences around the world.
00:15:25.499 --> 00:15:33.969
'cause I I also know students in the United States who've applied to college in other countries, just because, you know, the system's a lot different and they prefer to do that somewhere else.
00:15:33.969 --> 00:15:37.369
So it's really interesting to learn about how that's different in other countries.
00:15:37.729 --> 00:15:37.818
Mm-hmm.
00:15:38.149 --> 00:15:45.298
So you mentioned that you take your initial exam and then you have more education and you take another exam.
00:15:45.668 --> 00:15:57.818
So can you tell us a little bit about how your exam experience was and then you talked about the experience of like working with judges and you had more like practical professional experience in there as well.
00:15:57.818 --> 00:16:05.428
Can you kind of walk us through how your experience was going through that process to eventually become an attorney or general counsel?
00:16:05.428 --> 00:16:05.879
Yes.
00:16:05.908 --> 00:16:06.778
Yes, I can do that.
00:16:07.219 --> 00:16:14.129
So with the exam, I passed the first time I took it, but being so fast in my studies, I had a chance to redo it.
00:16:14.678 --> 00:16:18.548
And I was taking this chance because I was not satisfied with my grades.
00:16:19.028 --> 00:16:27.038
And that was a quite interesting experience because for the first exam or when I wrote it for the first time, I put myself under so much stress.
00:16:27.038 --> 00:16:30.788
I was studying so hard, I was memorizing so many things.
00:16:30.788 --> 00:16:34.953
I was drafting case studies over and over again.
00:16:35.193 --> 00:16:38.793
So for a full year, I was just deep diving into theory.
00:16:39.124 --> 00:16:42.303
And then the exam came and I passed, but I wasn't happy.
00:16:42.303 --> 00:16:45.533
And for the second time, I did it entirely differently.
00:16:46.089 --> 00:16:53.379
And I spoke to my dad and he said, look, Gitte you can study everything over and over again, but you need to trust yourself.
00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:54.219
You need to trust.
00:16:54.219 --> 00:17:03.158
And there we go in the structure, what they told you think when you are writing an exam and don't just repeat what you might have memorized.
00:17:03.278 --> 00:17:03.788
Yes.
00:17:03.788 --> 00:17:04.808
So, yeah.
00:17:04.953 --> 00:17:18.864
So I went in there with a different mindset and it turned out to be much, much better because I wasn't seeing it as just downloading everything I've learned, but just kind of like, okay, there is something I have to crack.
00:17:19.134 --> 00:17:23.574
There is a task, and obviously that's different for every type of study.
00:17:23.874 --> 00:17:33.134
But for law and in Germany for my type of study, it worked much better for me to just say, see the problem and not which page it was written in a right.
00:17:34.148 --> 00:17:39.788
Yeah, that's a really good point to make for students to think about across a lot of disciplines, right?
00:17:39.828 --> 00:17:57.798
To trust what you've learned and how you interpret that, and how you can answer questions and solve problems, you know, not just with the memorization and regurgitating the information, but you know, trust your brain to think through what you've learned and how to apply it, and then how to answer the question.
00:17:57.798 --> 00:18:00.318
I think sometimes, sadly, we lose that, right?
00:18:00.324 --> 00:18:00.344
Mm-hmm.
00:18:00.423 --> 00:18:01.769
Even though that's the point, isn't it?
00:18:02.798 --> 00:18:05.463
To all this learning and memorizing.
00:18:05.463 --> 00:18:14.523
You wanna have the opportunity to show what you did, and then it doesn't come and you're trying to squeeze it in and it's like, oh, maybe this point and that point and that point.
00:18:14.794 --> 00:18:15.874
And that's another thing.
00:18:15.874 --> 00:18:23.884
I think what I've just learned later on, and in hindsight, what I would've liked to know is: simplicity is key.
00:18:23.989 --> 00:18:24.048
Mm.
00:18:24.288 --> 00:18:26.298
Don't overcomplicate things.
00:18:26.298 --> 00:18:31.479
Don't try to squeeze another topic in there just to show that you've been a good student.
00:18:31.719 --> 00:18:33.999
Make it simple and very straightforward.
00:18:34.449 --> 00:18:34.659
Mm.
00:18:34.659 --> 00:18:34.719
Yeah.
00:18:34.778 --> 00:18:37.298
But it's hard when you have all these things in your head.
00:18:37.298 --> 00:18:40.223
You worked hard for it, and then nobody wants to hear about them.
00:18:41.318 --> 00:18:41.798
Yeah.
00:18:41.798 --> 00:18:46.749
Well, and those exams are so important for your future, right?
00:18:46.749 --> 00:18:49.719
So much of your future rides on that, whether you pass it or not.
00:18:49.719 --> 00:18:56.449
So I think that just that amount of pressure, it can also just impact your thinking, right?
00:18:56.449 --> 00:19:02.598
I mean, how can you, it's really hard to just sit back and take a deep breath and clear your mind when all that pressure is riding on it.
00:19:02.959 --> 00:19:03.318
Yeah.
00:19:03.378 --> 00:19:06.138
And I mean, you don't have a professional track record.
00:19:06.138 --> 00:19:08.148
It's easy for me to say this now.
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.239
Reflecting on a 20 year long career and different professions.
00:19:12.659 --> 00:19:14.038
You can be confident.
00:19:14.128 --> 00:19:16.769
I mean, you obviously made it to school pretty well.
00:19:17.009 --> 00:19:20.189
You made it to university, you made it to your final exam.
00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:30.028
So I, I wish, despite the lack of professional experience that everyone finds the confidence that they are exactly where they belong and they all succeed.
00:19:30.028 --> 00:19:30.088
Yeah.
00:19:31.034 --> 00:19:31.453
Yeah.
00:19:31.574 --> 00:19:33.644
That's a great thing for students to keep in mind.
00:19:33.644 --> 00:19:34.394
Absolutely.
00:19:35.413 --> 00:19:40.503
So after your exam, after you took it the second time, I'm assuming you were happier with your score?
00:19:40.503 --> 00:19:40.834
Absolutely.
00:19:41.564 --> 00:19:42.878
I was much happier.
00:19:43.138 --> 00:19:45.253
It feel much, felt much lighter.
00:19:45.594 --> 00:19:49.864
Then I started to choose the city where I would like to do my second state exam.
00:19:50.104 --> 00:19:56.874
So that's independent from the state where the university, where you take your first state exam is situated or located.
00:19:57.334 --> 00:19:58.923
So you have the free choice.
00:19:59.134 --> 00:20:04.923
It only comes with one downside and that you might have a waiting period if you change the state in Germany.
00:20:05.463 --> 00:20:13.263
And I fell in love with Berlin after my first state exam, and I desperately wanted to go to Berlin, wanted to live in Berlin.
00:20:13.513 --> 00:20:17.894
So that was 2000 and Berlin was just the most magic city in the world.
00:20:18.314 --> 00:20:21.284
Lots of underground culture, politics.
00:20:21.523 --> 00:20:29.523
I mean, there was 10 years after the wall came down, so we spoke about the reunification between eastern and Western Germany.
00:20:29.943 --> 00:20:36.493
So, and I desperately wanted to go into this city and, my parents say, yep, but you are on your own now.
00:20:36.493 --> 00:20:43.213
So, while waiting to start my practical education, I was starting to work at a law office at a law firm.
00:20:43.923 --> 00:20:53.314
And this is where the fund actually started in full transparency, because I was involved in a very specific field of law even before my second state exam.
00:20:53.703 --> 00:20:55.653
And these were restitution laws.
00:20:56.523 --> 00:21:00.064
So we spoke a little bit about this Eastern, Western German.
00:21:00.814 --> 00:21:01.923
Deviation.
00:21:02.253 --> 00:21:08.163
And obviously when you unified two states and one state, Eastern Germany has been a dictatorship.
00:21:08.503 --> 00:21:09.943
Western Germany was not.
00:21:10.183 --> 00:21:22.513
You have to reorganize a lot of laws and legislation that has been imposed in a dictatorship and amongst those kind of like, the deviation of property, of equity.
00:21:22.574 --> 00:21:24.973
And that goes back into the Nazi times.
00:21:24.973 --> 00:21:42.074
So Germany has a very unfortunate history as we all know, where a lot of discrimination happened towards all kind of people, which got went hand in hand with taking away their property because owning property is a deeply rooted expression of freedom.
00:21:42.403 --> 00:21:42.673
Yeah.
00:21:42.673 --> 00:21:44.713
When you wanna take freedom from people.
00:21:45.179 --> 00:21:48.419
You take their speech away, you take their property away.
00:21:48.729 --> 00:21:50.709
So that happens throughout the times.
00:21:50.709 --> 00:21:54.398
Not only in na time, it also happened in the eastern German dictatorship.
00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:58.558
And so I was busy with revising this injustice.
00:21:59.098 --> 00:22:02.969
So, this is what I did before I started my practical education.
00:22:03.298 --> 00:22:12.939
And while I did my practical education, it's very common that in Germany, when you do your practical education, you actually start working already in private practice if you have the chance.
00:22:13.483 --> 00:22:14.144
Oh wow.
00:22:14.263 --> 00:22:22.513
So when you're working in private practice, during your practical education, are you limited to what you can do because you haven't completed that?
00:22:22.513 --> 00:22:22.574
Yeah.
00:22:22.574 --> 00:22:28.634
What are you doing compared to what you would be doing if you were already, you know, licensed to be in that field?
00:22:29.084 --> 00:22:35.903
Yeah, you are below an associate because you're not allowed to represent any clients in front of a court, for example.
00:22:35.903 --> 00:22:36.713
That's one thing.
00:22:36.773 --> 00:22:36.894
Right.
00:22:37.074 --> 00:22:41.243
And obviously you haven't learned like how to draft properly, et cetera.
00:22:41.273 --> 00:22:43.044
You are trained, you're like a trainee.
00:22:43.413 --> 00:22:45.663
You're supporting with a lot of research.
00:22:45.663 --> 00:22:47.644
You are doing a lot of field work.
00:22:47.953 --> 00:22:56.173
You're starting to draft certain pieces of applications to court when it comes to summarizing what happened, what didn't happen.
00:22:56.173 --> 00:23:05.413
But you are like a researcher more, I would say in hindsight, and then dependent on the law of review, a dependent on the lawyer that works with you, you might get more or less.
00:23:05.618 --> 00:23:10.588
Exposure you might be invited to join meetings with clients to join in front of a court.
00:23:10.588 --> 00:23:12.989
And I was very lucky that that happened to me.
00:23:12.989 --> 00:23:14.939
So I got a very broad exposure.
00:23:15.239 --> 00:23:17.398
But yeah, it's mostly research work that you're doing.
00:23:18.118 --> 00:23:18.449
Okay.
00:23:19.199 --> 00:23:23.818
And then what types of things were you doing during your practical education and where were you doing them?
00:23:24.798 --> 00:23:27.689
I was just trying to memorize that to be honest.
00:23:27.689 --> 00:23:32.108
So there are certain areas that you have to do that are mandatory.
00:23:32.108 --> 00:23:38.798
So for example, you have to work with the prosecutor's office and you have to run prosecutions yourself.
00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:44.598
Which I found at the time being very uncomfortable because I was just fresh from university.
00:23:44.659 --> 00:23:49.548
Of course, you learn a lot about criminal law, a lot about defense and all that.
00:23:49.548 --> 00:24:10.189
But, I felt like, look, I'm acting on behalf of the state here and I'm convicting people for minor crimes, obviously are not involved in murder cases, but for crimes, and I felt so uncomfortable doing this because I didn't feel I'm just in a position or experienced enough to really, to be there.
00:24:10.189 --> 00:24:18.739
But, hey, this is part of your education and in hindsight you are obliged to do it, to get to know all theater of law to make a decent decision.
00:24:19.278 --> 00:24:20.689
Then I was with the court.
00:24:20.868 --> 00:24:23.298
I think that was mostly real estate.
00:24:23.749 --> 00:24:28.749
So not the most exciting stuff, but you do this because the epitome of the education.
00:24:28.749 --> 00:24:34.388
So the entire legal studies that my time were meant to lead you to becoming a judge.
00:24:34.419 --> 00:24:37.449
Not that everyone is ultimately becoming a judge because.
00:24:37.449 --> 00:24:42.189
The places are limited, but this is how they educated you at the time being.
00:24:42.189 --> 00:24:43.328
So I did that.
00:24:43.659 --> 00:24:49.999
I found this rather boring, no offense, and then the most interesting was probably private practice.
00:24:49.999 --> 00:24:52.249
I did that with the law firm I was working with.
00:24:52.423 --> 00:25:01.528
But I also did this with another law firm who was specialized in the laws of sports, media and entertainment.
00:25:02.148 --> 00:25:02.449
Yeah.
00:25:02.499 --> 00:25:13.489
So that was super interesting because obviously there is a little bit, you have this, at least in Germany, you have some stars and artists, sports people you deal with.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:29.098
Like, so I was working on a case, representing, two box stars at the time being, and this whole law firm was full of art because they are, senior partner is a big art collector, a very well known figure in the Berlin scene.
00:25:29.098 --> 00:25:34.858
So it came with a different exposure despite the hard work and the high quality work.
00:25:34.858 --> 00:25:39.628
But it was just around this kind of like, you felt like, wow, this is pretty interesting stuff.
00:25:39.628 --> 00:25:41.729
So I got a bit hooked by the glam.
00:25:42.118 --> 00:25:44.128
Yeah, well that was a lot of fun.
00:25:44.128 --> 00:25:45.778
And I got a brilliant education.
00:25:45.778 --> 00:25:47.729
I was working mostly in media law.
00:25:48.098 --> 00:25:52.578
So despite the fun and the exposure, it was really brilliant education.
00:25:52.578 --> 00:25:59.368
And then I did, the most fun piece was the administration you need to do, because you can do this, whatever.
00:25:59.834 --> 00:26:04.473
Is run by the German government, and that opens you up to a broad range of topic.
00:26:04.473 --> 00:26:14.614
You can obviously go into a classic like tax office or whatsoever, but I was doing this at an opera house because there are state owned in Germany.
00:26:14.854 --> 00:26:15.003
Yeah.
00:26:15.003 --> 00:26:23.159
So, I was working for an opera house and looking behind the scenes there, I probably didn't have too much legal exposure, but it was very interesting.
00:26:24.459 --> 00:26:26.054
So that was super interesting.
00:26:26.054 --> 00:26:32.903
And I think this is where I, in hindsight, set a little bit the stage for my current career being a chief operating officer, I.
00:26:33.558 --> 00:26:44.608
Because I learned that, obviously, opera House of Theaters, like in all countries, but specifically like in a system like Germany, when it's state finance, they're always running out of money.
00:26:44.999 --> 00:26:45.148
Hmm.
00:26:45.199 --> 00:26:49.318
And we don't have what I see in the US a lot of private engagement.
00:26:49.798 --> 00:27:03.598
It is really the task of the state, slowly changing, but at the time being, it was considered a fundamental task of the state to provide for the arts, to provide access to opera, theater, cinema, movies.
00:27:03.598 --> 00:27:05.308
So that's deeply rooted.
00:27:05.308 --> 00:27:08.128
We have less of a private engagement in that field.
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.959
And so I got hooked to understand, well, why isn't this working too well?
00:27:12.959 --> 00:27:17.398
Because obviously great opera houses, they are hopefully sold out.
00:27:17.648 --> 00:27:21.398
Ticket prices are decent, but you get paid.
00:27:21.648 --> 00:27:24.138
So why aren't they run economically?
00:27:24.509 --> 00:27:28.378
So what is it, what is limiting the success of an organization?
00:27:29.128 --> 00:27:29.489
Hmm.
00:27:29.848 --> 00:27:38.638
That's so interesting that you say that'cause I think a lot of American opera houses in the opera community wished that the government would fund the arts.
00:27:39.084 --> 00:27:39.503
Mm-hmm.
00:27:39.773 --> 00:27:40.064
Yeah.
00:27:40.114 --> 00:27:46.169
And we would wish a kind of in Germany we see more and more restrictions, in terms of investments in this field.
00:27:46.169 --> 00:27:46.259
Mm-hmm.
00:27:46.788 --> 00:27:54.919
So we wish we had a little bit more of a structure as we see it in America where obviously also from a social aspect mm-hmm.
00:27:55.159 --> 00:28:02.118
This kind of like commitment and engagement is appreciated, but it's also supported by the right laws and legislation.
00:28:02.509 --> 00:28:02.568
Yeah.
00:28:02.598 --> 00:28:06.348
So it's an entirely different way of operating in this field.
00:28:06.693 --> 00:28:07.203
Yeah.
00:28:07.233 --> 00:28:08.253
That's so interesting.
00:28:08.644 --> 00:28:14.644
So after your practical education, did you say you had to take another exam then?
00:28:14.794 --> 00:28:16.624
Yes, I had another exam.
00:28:16.923 --> 00:28:18.574
Very similar to the first one.
00:28:18.574 --> 00:28:23.653
You're drafting a couple of case studies, five hours to solve the case.
00:28:23.903 --> 00:28:24.983
That's the written exam.
00:28:24.983 --> 00:28:32.594
And then you have a verbal exam where defending literally kind of like you get a full file and you're defending the file.
00:28:32.673 --> 00:28:33.753
Oh, I only did this once.
00:28:35.229 --> 00:28:36.368
I didn't repeat that.
00:28:36.398 --> 00:28:36.894
That's good enough.
00:28:38.733 --> 00:28:40.209
I felt like, okay, I'm done here.
00:28:40.209 --> 00:28:49.469
So I know in the United States, when students are passing their bar exam, there's a kind of an extra stress on top of that to find a job.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:56.659
And some people, you know, are securing that prior to the exam on the condition that they passed the exam, and then some of them are doing that after the fact.
00:28:56.659 --> 00:29:04.038
So how did that work for you, and was there something in particular that you were really seeking out at that time?
00:29:04.038 --> 00:29:10.338
Or had any of your ideas changed about what you wanted to do, with the education that you'd received?
00:29:10.354 --> 00:29:13.653
Did anything kind of spark your interest in a different way than it had before?
00:29:14.614 --> 00:29:22.564
Look, it was pretty interesting because after all these years of studying, and I think it was about six or eight in total.
00:29:22.983 --> 00:29:25.683
It's a long study in Germany, even when you are fast.
00:29:26.134 --> 00:29:28.894
I just felt like I had no idea what I wanted to do with it.
00:29:29.733 --> 00:29:36.723
So there was kind of like this constant pressure of learning and there was always kind of like, you do one exam, then you prepare for the next one.
00:29:37.183 --> 00:29:46.733
And I fell a little bit into a hole, so I just, I just didn't know what to do and I felt like I need a break, I need a long break.
00:29:46.733 --> 00:29:54.413
And it was very much to the surprise of my family who felt like, well, now you're qualified, so why aren't you more excited?
00:29:54.413 --> 00:29:57.354
And I was just like, I'm so tired after all these years.
00:29:57.638 --> 00:30:02.979
And actually I liked a lot of things, but nothing really deeply hooked me.
00:30:02.979 --> 00:30:08.479
And so I decided to take a bit of time off, to start my PhD.
00:30:09.348 --> 00:30:13.308
To deep dive a little bit more into the economics of an opera house.
00:30:13.548 --> 00:30:18.088
So I was spending my time researching, what drives an organization?
00:30:18.388 --> 00:30:30.848
How do you, get people incentivized to contribute to your creating specifically when they're paid by the government, where you don't have this incentivization, quite often that comes with private economy.
00:30:30.848 --> 00:30:33.719
And I apologize to everyone who's working at the government.
00:30:33.719 --> 00:30:36.148
I'm terribly drawing conclusions here.
00:30:36.509 --> 00:30:37.949
So I was looking into that.
00:30:37.949 --> 00:30:43.169
I was looking into tax laws, I was looking into corporate laws, so what's the right corporate structure?
00:30:43.538 --> 00:30:50.439
So I kept myself busy for a year, and then I was running out of funds and I got headhunted into my first role.
00:30:50.439 --> 00:30:52.269
So I never finished the PhD.
00:30:52.538 --> 00:30:54.489
In hindsight, I needed a break.
00:30:54.578 --> 00:30:57.368
I needed to kind of like reset a little bit.
00:30:57.729 --> 00:31:03.239
And, as I said, in hindsight, this is when I swear I set the stage to eventually move into a business role.
00:31:03.778 --> 00:31:04.288
Yeah.
00:31:04.919 --> 00:31:07.409
Well, good for you for taking the break when you knew you needed it.
00:31:07.409 --> 00:31:09.588
'cause I think it's a hard thing for people to do.
00:31:09.588 --> 00:31:18.138
Even I think sometimes our gut is telling us that we should really do something in particular and we just shove it away and keep going forward without listening to that.
00:31:18.138 --> 00:31:18.499
Right?
00:31:18.499 --> 00:31:26.923
I was working for the law firm, but I couldn't commit to stay with the law firm or I couldn't commit to go into an institution.
00:31:26.923 --> 00:31:31.203
I mean, I would've loved to stay with the opera house, but, the roles were limited there.
00:31:31.534 --> 00:31:34.453
So, I was working, but, I didn't commit.
00:31:34.979 --> 00:31:35.219
Yeah.
00:31:35.229 --> 00:31:35.588
Okay.
00:31:36.159 --> 00:31:41.288
So when you said you were headhunted into kind of your first job, what was that experience like for you?
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:50.769
Very satisfying, obviously, that someone gives you a call and says, Hey, we want you because we think you're great for the job.
00:31:50.858 --> 00:31:51.189
Yeah.
00:31:51.189 --> 00:31:52.538
Like, oh, that's interesting.
00:31:53.439 --> 00:31:54.679
So what job was it?
00:31:54.679 --> 00:31:58.219
So that's a funny thing because I started my career in waste management.
00:31:58.219 --> 00:31:58.278
I.
00:31:58.278 --> 00:31:59.794
So I became Oh, really?
00:31:59.798 --> 00:32:09.574
Became, uh, yeah, I became the head of legal of a small company, that was primarily looking into recycling of packaging material, reusables, et cetera.
00:32:09.574 --> 00:32:15.203
There was a big, big thing in Germany at the time being, a lot of regulation popped up there.
00:32:15.493 --> 00:32:20.594
So a lot of companies were founded to benefit from this regulation and offer this type of services.
00:32:20.933 --> 00:32:26.394
And I became their head of legal immediately, which is also not too bad when you're coming out of university.
00:32:26.663 --> 00:32:28.854
I mean, I was pretty much a one woman show.
00:32:29.193 --> 00:32:43.963
But what was really exciting about this role is that, as a lawyer in highly regulated industries like waste management, finance, et cetera, you are always very close to the business because you are helping them to craft their products and services.
00:32:43.963 --> 00:32:44.023
Yeah.
00:32:45.134 --> 00:32:45.433
Yeah.
00:32:45.463 --> 00:32:48.314
There is no way that this can be done without lawyers.
00:32:48.314 --> 00:32:52.163
So, you're not just a support function or a shared service.
00:32:52.403 --> 00:32:57.134
You're act actively contributing to the service and product offering of the company.
00:32:57.134 --> 00:33:00.794
And that was very, very interesting in this role.
00:33:01.693 --> 00:33:11.933
So going through that role, I mean, when we're talking about reusables and recycling and everything, not just at that time, but now too, of course, that has some bigger meaning, right.
00:33:11.933 --> 00:33:14.034
To make an impact in your community.
00:33:14.034 --> 00:33:16.193
So did you feel like that was meaningful work for you?
00:33:17.294 --> 00:33:19.003
That's an interesting question.
00:33:19.124 --> 00:33:21.763
I think I saw it more from the business side.
00:33:21.773 --> 00:33:30.243
And I had this in a couple of my roles on when you're working in industries that should excite you, like music, entertainment.
00:33:30.243 --> 00:33:38.663
Whenever I started a job, I saw the job more than the industry and the impact I could have, so I think for me it was my first role.
00:33:38.663 --> 00:33:42.804
It was just about learning everything, understanding the industry.
00:33:42.983 --> 00:33:47.253
So I don't think I had much time to think about the impact.
00:33:47.733 --> 00:33:47.913
Yeah.
00:33:47.913 --> 00:33:49.713
And the system is not without flaws.
00:33:49.923 --> 00:33:50.134
Yeah.
00:33:50.134 --> 00:33:53.713
So you also see that when you're working behind the scenes.
00:33:54.044 --> 00:33:54.374
Yeah.
00:33:55.064 --> 00:33:57.584
Could you talk a little bit about just.
00:33:57.614 --> 00:34:07.374
I in general with, getting your first job in an industry after you've completed your education, and really this can apply to any field, but mm-hmm.
00:34:07.824 --> 00:34:13.043
I think there's a lot of pressure on students when they're trying to land that first job.
00:34:13.373 --> 00:34:20.003
There's just a lot of pressure for it to be an amazing job and to be something that they really would love.
00:34:20.003 --> 00:34:27.443
There's all of this expectation, that you've gone through all of this education, that you've done all this hard work and like, what is the job gonna be?
00:34:27.713 --> 00:34:41.844
So, can you talk a little bit about what your experience was, but also just your perspective now that you've had a career, looking back on that first job, maybe some encouragement to students that, you know, that doesn't have to be your dream job.
00:34:41.849 --> 00:34:42.188
Mm-hmm.
00:34:42.268 --> 00:34:49.914
Like maybe, what are some of the benefits or how you can kind of approach thinking about that first job in your industry out of school?
00:34:51.278 --> 00:34:52.929
Yeah, that's a very good question.
00:34:52.929 --> 00:34:59.389
I think, already for me, when I accepted the job, which was not in Berlin, and I loved Berlin, so I wanted to stay there.
00:34:59.389 --> 00:35:01.159
So it already came with a downside.
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.579
And so for me it was very clear that this is a starting point.
00:35:05.028 --> 00:35:05.268
Yeah.
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:10.199
Which I would do for a couple of years, but not for the rest of my life.
00:35:10.259 --> 00:35:17.418
And what I've learned throughout my career is look at the opportunity from the here and now.
00:35:17.568 --> 00:35:21.949
So when you don't think about it, okay, what happens in five years?
00:35:21.949 --> 00:35:23.688
What happens in 10 years, right?
00:35:23.688 --> 00:35:27.199
Do I need to spend my entire career in waste management?
00:35:27.568 --> 00:35:31.619
In my case, I never thought this way, and that was probably also right.
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:35.909
And this is how I approached kind of like all of my professional experiences.
00:35:35.909 --> 00:35:39.699
And I've gone through quite few and quite various ones.
00:35:40.518 --> 00:35:44.699
Don't think about the future too much like, the far future.
00:35:45.028 --> 00:35:47.548
You don't know what is happening in five years.
00:35:47.548 --> 00:35:47.608
Yeah.
00:35:47.608 --> 00:35:50.338
You don't know what is happening in 10 years.
00:35:50.369 --> 00:35:54.768
There is your private life that might pull you in different directions.
00:35:55.009 --> 00:35:58.338
There are the macro economics, the micro economics.
00:35:58.648 --> 00:36:01.318
There are so many factors you can't influence.
00:36:01.528 --> 00:36:06.989
So think about what the job provides you in terms of the here and now.
00:36:06.989 --> 00:36:12.688
And sometimes it's also absolutely right to take a job because you need to earn your living.
00:36:13.108 --> 00:36:14.998
This is a very fair reason.
00:36:15.369 --> 00:36:21.588
And that's probably the toughest thing when I'm recalling, coming out of all this education, you wanna have an impact.
00:36:21.588 --> 00:36:28.018
You really have a mind, kind of like the broader benefits that your job should provide you.
00:36:28.259 --> 00:36:30.418
But ultimately we all need to make a living.
00:36:30.418 --> 00:36:33.778
So it's perfectly fine to start off from that point of view.
00:36:34.048 --> 00:36:44.103
You shouldn't do something that you despise, you shouldn't do anything that is not aligned with your values, but it's not a bad thing to start and wanting to earn money.
00:36:45.574 --> 00:36:46.563
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:46.563 --> 00:36:55.949
I really appreciate what you said about, of course you wanna think about if the job you're taking is beneficial for you, in that moment and is a good step.
00:36:55.949 --> 00:37:02.449
It's great to have goals and it's great to try to think about wise decisions for your future, but we just don't, we don't know.
00:37:03.083 --> 00:37:03.503
Mm-hmm.
00:37:03.614 --> 00:37:04.103
Exactly.
00:37:04.204 --> 00:37:06.498
And there's just no way to predict that.
00:37:06.498 --> 00:37:08.239
And there's, even if you planned it out.
00:37:08.684 --> 00:37:09.673
Exactly.
00:37:09.764 --> 00:37:12.793
You know, to the week of every step you're gonna take.
00:37:13.213 --> 00:37:24.043
I mean, I think pretty much all working adults will tell you, it never goes exactly the way that you're trying to plan it to go, or it never goes exactly the way that you think it will go.
00:37:24.043 --> 00:37:25.454
And a lot of times it's for the better.
00:37:25.454 --> 00:37:25.784
Right?
00:37:25.784 --> 00:37:27.463
I don't mean to say that in a negative way.
00:37:27.463 --> 00:37:27.465
Mm-hmm.
00:37:27.471 --> 00:37:31.034
Sometimes it's like, thank goodness that didn't go the way I planned it.
00:37:31.063 --> 00:37:32.264
'cause this is so much better.
00:37:32.264 --> 00:37:34.463
But, I really like the way that you phrased that.
00:37:35.753 --> 00:37:40.434
And look, ultimately, every job comes with a learning opportunity.
00:37:40.434 --> 00:37:44.693
You will go out of every job richer than you enter the job.
00:37:45.083 --> 00:37:52.313
Hopefully these are only great experiences and you find mentors and coaches and you continue to grow.
00:37:52.313 --> 00:37:56.304
But even from not so great experiences, you will learn.
00:37:56.393 --> 00:38:01.103
They will form you as a professional, maybe as a person as well.
00:38:01.384 --> 00:38:04.954
But I've never hold a job where I didn't have a learning.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.429
Yeah, that supported me and helped me to take the next step in my career.
00:38:09.789 --> 00:38:09.998
Mm-hmm.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:10.869
Yeah.
00:38:10.869 --> 00:38:16.389
And really, even if you're in the midst of a negative experience, you can still take something from that, right?
00:38:16.389 --> 00:38:23.739
You can still learn something about, you know, this is not how I will handle things correct on my next step.
00:38:23.974 --> 00:38:26.168
I'm not going to make that mistake again.
00:38:26.168 --> 00:38:26.259
Yes.
00:38:26.409 --> 00:38:30.969
So all that feeds into your, I would say, personal professional account.
00:38:31.298 --> 00:38:34.858
So I think there is no wrong decision.
00:38:34.858 --> 00:38:37.528
Look at what the job is providing you at the moment.
00:38:37.528 --> 00:38:40.588
You have to take the decision, and then go for it.
00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:41.489
Yeah.
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:46.228
So after that first job, how did you transition into something else?
00:38:46.228 --> 00:38:50.639
Were you headhunted out again or were you getting to a point where you wanted something new?
00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:59.548
So out of this first job, there was a little step in between because I was promoted out of the legal role into my first business role.
00:39:00.068 --> 00:39:07.119
And as I explained, waste management is a highly regulated industry, so there is a need for lawyers to move into business roles.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:21.523
And the company I started with got acquired by a much larger global energy and waste management company at the time being there we go on kind of like taking the job, not overthinking it, but yeah.
00:39:21.523 --> 00:39:23.023
Opportunities will come along.
00:39:23.264 --> 00:39:24.494
So that happened to me.
00:39:24.494 --> 00:39:25.994
So I was in a business role.
00:39:26.284 --> 00:39:29.074
So I got internally headhunted and promoted.
00:39:29.313 --> 00:39:30.724
I was doing that for a while.
00:39:30.724 --> 00:39:52.463
And then I received a call from someone I worked with at the law firm during my second state exam and before, and he was a young associate there at the time being, he meanwhile, moved out of private practice, became an in-house counselor, and he was hiring for his team and he said, look, I need a German speaking lawyer with a German education.
00:39:52.974 --> 00:39:54.804
We always worked well together.
00:39:54.923 --> 00:39:56.664
Are you, do you wanna join me?
00:39:56.664 --> 00:39:58.643
And this is the power of a network.
00:39:58.943 --> 00:39:59.634
Yes.
00:39:59.873 --> 00:40:00.023
Yeah.
00:40:00.023 --> 00:40:01.733
So I didn't get headhunted.
00:40:01.733 --> 00:40:05.974
I just got a call from a colleague who appreciated how we work together.
00:40:06.414 --> 00:40:17.639
Who thought my profile would be a great fit for the company and who asked me whether I would be in the mood, to move back into more of a legal experience and profession.
00:40:17.643 --> 00:40:17.804
Yeah.
00:40:18.028 --> 00:40:18.208
Yeah.
00:40:18.224 --> 00:40:29.398
I'm so glad you made the networking comment because really we try to bring that up in a lot of episodes and a lot of people I talk to,'cause it's so interesting how that comes around for people in so many different ways.
00:40:29.398 --> 00:40:42.329
And I think a lot of times when students think about the word network or networking, sometimes it comes across as like this kind of sales pitch kind of thing, or just a very shallow way to connect with people.
00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:51.298
But really a lot of the networking that benefits people throughout their career are just people they've naturally come to know.
00:40:51.304 --> 00:40:51.643
Mm-hmm.
00:40:51.699 --> 00:41:11.909
Whether it's in their workspace, it could be at university, it could be a neighbor, like who knows, you know, there's so many people in your network, but so much of it is very natural and genuine and initially there's no intention, right, to I'm gonna put this person in my network so later on it's going to benefit me.
00:41:11.909 --> 00:41:15.719
You know, that's not how it is, but that's kind of how we think about that word sometimes.
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:22.509
But really, it's so many connections that you just naturally have in your life and you never know how those are gonna come around later.
00:41:23.168 --> 00:41:24.039
Absolutely.
00:41:24.338 --> 00:41:31.068
And it's, I think networking is, as you say, it's not always, I mean, it can be very intentional to, sure.
00:41:31.068 --> 00:41:31.849
It be its job.
00:41:31.873 --> 00:41:32.293
Mm-hmm.
00:41:32.378 --> 00:41:39.139
But ultimately, networking is more about building expertise surrounding you to ask questions.
00:41:39.514 --> 00:41:39.934
Yeah.
00:41:40.204 --> 00:41:51.724
And that can be when you in intend to change a job, it can be that they have a job for you, but it's more about increasing your thinking about your professional career and what could be the next step.
00:41:51.903 --> 00:41:54.443
So this is what networking is ultimately about.
00:41:54.443 --> 00:42:03.893
But of course, there's also an aspect where you do this intentionally to kind of like, because you have a very clear vision of where your future and your professional or private future should lead you.
00:42:05.023 --> 00:42:11.634
When I think about my career, a lot happened because of people I worked with in my previous roles.
00:42:11.998 --> 00:42:15.298
So I'm assuming you took that offer from that old colleague that called you?
00:42:15.389 --> 00:42:15.809
Oh yeah.
00:42:15.878 --> 00:42:31.268
It went differently than I thought because he initially wanted me for a role at a company that was based in Germany, close to where I was living at the time being, but the European headquarter of the company, by the way, it's Eaton Industries, I can mention that.
00:42:31.268 --> 00:42:37.384
So I joined my first US based global operating corporation, which was an amazing experience.
00:42:37.733 --> 00:42:41.153
I interviewed at their EA headquarters in Switzerland.
00:42:41.724 --> 00:42:47.239
And guess what I took to get a job offer for Switzerland and not for Germany, and honestly as a Oh, wow.
00:42:47.298 --> 00:42:47.748
Yeah.
00:42:47.809 --> 00:42:53.028
As a German trained lawyer, you are not necessarily prepared for an international career.
00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:58.608
It's, it might happen, but I never assumed it would happen to me, but there we go.
00:42:58.668 --> 00:42:59.088
Yeah.
00:42:59.088 --> 00:43:04.849
I was interviewing people like me and said, look, don't you wanna come to Switzerland?
00:43:05.289 --> 00:43:07.179
And I said, yeah, let's do this.
00:43:07.179 --> 00:43:21.679
And figuring out that I had to work in English from that day on, I'm still amazed by the naivete I showed at the time, and this again shows you don't overthink it, just do it.
00:43:21.684 --> 00:43:21.813
Mm-hmm.
00:43:21.954 --> 00:43:23.028
It will work out.
00:43:23.028 --> 00:43:27.268
And if you are hardworking and if you listen, you are humble.
00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:30.938
You show where your weaknesses are and that you have gaps.
00:43:31.148 --> 00:43:33.009
You will find people that help you out.
00:43:33.009 --> 00:43:33.398
So.
00:43:34.074 --> 00:43:35.034
I learned a lot there.
00:43:35.393 --> 00:43:55.293
I learned a lot, not only to work in English as a lawyer, but this is where I probably got the most valuable education as an in-house counsel, from my direct boss that has headhunted me, but also from the European general counsel, because she led a top-notch legal department.
00:43:55.293 --> 00:44:07.273
So I learned so much in this department about how to run a legal department at the company, what to focus on, what matters, what doesn't matter, how to engage the right external counsel.
00:44:07.273 --> 00:44:10.494
So I probably learned to become a general counselor there.
00:44:10.494 --> 00:44:27.284
And I also met my first mentor, who was encouraging me to even think about becoming a general counselor because, well, she sat down in the performance review and she said, so I was a senior counselor at the time being so not the junior, but not leading the department.
00:44:27.423 --> 00:44:27.844
Mm-hmm.
00:44:27.923 --> 00:44:29.798
And she said, what are your expectations?
00:44:29.798 --> 00:44:33.668
And I said, well, I wanna do well and maybe a pay raise.
00:44:33.668 --> 00:44:36.128
And she said, okay, that's not a development.
00:44:36.438 --> 00:44:38.509
And then she asked where do you wanna be in five years?
00:44:38.509 --> 00:44:40.838
And I'm like, uh, what is there?
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:49.369
And so she was probably not only teaching me to how to run a legal department, but really to think about my career as a development.
00:44:49.789 --> 00:45:01.298
And I'm still applying what I learned from her to myself, but also to my reports, to say, okay, it's not rocket science, but it's only you who can decide what you wanna be.
00:45:01.298 --> 00:45:04.278
And it can be something within your professional path.
00:45:04.278 --> 00:45:05.599
It can be something different.
00:45:05.809 --> 00:45:11.809
It can be within the company you're with, it can be with another company, but it's more about the role you are aspiring.
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:13.469
Where do you wanna be in two years?
00:45:13.469 --> 00:45:14.969
Where do you want to be at five years?
00:45:15.088 --> 00:45:18.028
And then to look into the soft and the hard skills you need.
00:45:18.028 --> 00:45:20.909
And as simple as it sounds, look at job descriptions.
00:45:21.268 --> 00:45:22.829
They tell you what is required.
00:45:22.829 --> 00:45:22.889
Yeah.
00:45:23.398 --> 00:45:23.699
Yes.
00:45:24.208 --> 00:45:24.389
Mm-hmm.
00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:35.739
And then all of a sudden this overwhelming question of where do you wanna be in five years becomes something that is, that you can approach with quite some logic.
00:45:35.739 --> 00:45:39.969
And I think I would've liked to know this sooner in my career.
00:45:40.318 --> 00:45:54.298
Because it gives you a little bit of a structure and the clarity, and it also allows you probably to look left and right because you know which skills you need, hard skills, soft skills, and you can acquire them within your professional lane or outside.
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:57.179
It really depends on what.
00:45:58.514 --> 00:45:59.878
But yeah, I learned a lot.
00:45:59.878 --> 00:46:02.608
This is probably where I was shaped as an in-house counsel.
00:46:04.298 --> 00:46:12.789
Yeah, that's, you made some excellent points within that, especially, I love how you framed it all as that being a learning environment for you.
00:46:13.309 --> 00:46:24.918
Because I think a lot of times people are thinking about jobs as like, what can I accomplish and what can I get out of this and how can I move forward when really we need to be looking around and like, okay, this is where I am right now.
00:46:25.248 --> 00:46:26.838
What can I learn while I'm here?
00:46:26.838 --> 00:46:29.208
What can I learn from these people around me?
00:46:29.509 --> 00:46:32.389
If you can have a mentor in that space, that's great.
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.099
The learning doesn't stop with the university, right?
00:46:36.509 --> 00:46:36.721
No, it doesn't.
00:46:37.748 --> 00:46:49.028
And honestly, this is one of the biggest skill sets you'd need as a manager that is within your cards, is that you're keeping this learning mindset because it is A: a sign of self-awareness.
00:46:49.088 --> 00:46:50.378
You don't know it all.
00:46:50.378 --> 00:46:59.643
And it also opens your eyes for the talents you are leading because there will be a time, when your reports are more of a meta expert than you are.
00:46:59.943 --> 00:47:00.364
Mm-hmm.
00:47:00.623 --> 00:47:03.168
And you need to be confident with that situation.
00:47:03.438 --> 00:47:08.838
And you also wanna hire, obviously, the best experts into your team because they help the team to succeed.
00:47:09.168 --> 00:47:16.338
And only when you have a mind that, that you don't know it all, I think you attract this talent and you can get the best out of them.
00:47:16.338 --> 00:47:21.858
So if you aspire to become a manager, always see every experience as a learning experience.
00:47:22.068 --> 00:47:28.443
Listen, be aware of the gaps you have, surround you with people that know better and ask them for guidance.
00:47:28.443 --> 00:47:29.909
And these can also be reports.
00:47:29.929 --> 00:47:31.699
It does not always be your manager.
00:47:32.059 --> 00:47:32.478
Right.
00:47:32.659 --> 00:47:33.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:33.648 --> 00:47:44.889
And I wanted to point out too, for students, just to make sure they heard you say, looking at job descriptions can be really educational, and that can be on something like LinkedIn or it can be on different corporation websites.
00:47:44.938 --> 00:47:52.168
A lot of times they'll say, you know, these are the things that are absolutely required for us to hire this person into this position.
00:47:52.228 --> 00:47:54.599
And then here's some things that we prefer.
00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:02.009
We may not require them, but we prefer to have people with the following qualifications or education or certifications or whatever it is.
00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:16.688
And that can be really helpful looking forward if there's something you think you wanna do 10 years down the road, start looking at what's required of that, because sometimes it's gonna take you years to accumulate those things.
00:48:16.688 --> 00:48:16.958
Absolutely.
00:48:17.478 --> 00:48:18.318
Absolutely.
00:48:18.409 --> 00:48:20.449
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
00:48:20.989 --> 00:48:35.869
And there's also something when you start learning these job descriptions and you're looking at the companies that are handing them out, you understand what a company truly aspires with this role, what's the impact, what's the measure of success?
00:48:35.869 --> 00:48:43.438
And I think this is also very interesting for your own kind of like measurement to understand the impact and the success metrics you can have.
00:48:43.739 --> 00:48:45.864
So I love reading job descriptions.
00:48:45.864 --> 00:48:47.184
I'm doing this all the time.
00:48:48.568 --> 00:48:51.958
So you said that was a really great learning space for you.
00:48:52.179 --> 00:49:00.159
What was your next step after that and how do you feel like being in that position really helped you move into the next space that you moved into?
00:49:01.934 --> 00:49:10.923
I need to laugh, but it was, again, the network because the regional council, who also was my mentor, she was changing companies.
00:49:11.458 --> 00:49:13.989
So she joined APM terminals.
00:49:13.989 --> 00:49:19.318
APM terminal is a container terminal operator part of the Bass group.
00:49:19.688 --> 00:49:25.329
So heavy in logistics, blue color, big harbors, big ships, big container.
00:49:25.568 --> 00:49:29.139
Really an industry that shapes the macroeconomics of this world.
00:49:29.498 --> 00:49:34.108
And she was taking the general council role for APM terminals.
00:49:34.108 --> 00:49:39.338
And at one point, she had an interesting job offer announced.
00:49:39.909 --> 00:49:42.219
And, so, I joined her team again.
00:49:43.088 --> 00:49:47.259
So I changed industries and moved out of Switzerland into the Netherlands.
00:49:47.259 --> 00:49:51.998
And I was driven, yeah, I was driven by a couple of considerations.
00:49:52.059 --> 00:49:57.369
I love Eaton industries, but I felt I'm too young to stay in Switzerland.
00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:00.309
People that are living in Switzerland might understand it.
00:50:00.309 --> 00:50:01.418
It's very settled.
00:50:01.974 --> 00:50:15.443
If you're living a little bit in an ivory tower, I know, I can totally understand If people today think like, well, I would love to have everything coordinated and predictable and a little bit of stability.
00:50:15.443 --> 00:50:15.534
Mm-hmm.
00:50:15.903 --> 00:50:17.853
That's absolutely legitimate.
00:50:18.153 --> 00:50:22.443
Look, that was probably about 15 years ago where the world was a different one.
00:50:22.873 --> 00:50:28.373
And I felt, look, I'm not close enough to retirement to not go on a couple of adventures.
00:50:28.373 --> 00:50:33.023
So there was this personal feeling, but I was obviously also very intrigued by the company.
00:50:33.083 --> 00:50:39.983
That has been something I, you shape nations, you shape industries, when you are operating at that scale.
00:50:40.059 --> 00:50:45.039
You have operations in all countries in this world and you have an impact there.
00:50:45.398 --> 00:50:49.949
So, I love the idea of understanding this industry a bit better.
00:50:50.009 --> 00:50:53.909
That has so much impact on entire nations.
00:50:53.938 --> 00:51:02.048
I can't say it differently because when you are running a terminal in Africa, you're probably contributing to half of the country's GDP.
00:51:02.289 --> 00:51:02.498
Yeah.
00:51:02.858 --> 00:51:03.338
Wow.
00:51:03.429 --> 00:51:06.518
Yeah, and I'm glad you made the adventure comment too.
00:51:06.548 --> 00:51:22.949
'cause that's something for students to consider is, just the reality of life, oftentimes the earlier in your life you are, the more freedom you potentially have to move to another country or to try something very new.
00:51:23.228 --> 00:51:29.768
You may have that freedom later in your life, but generally speaking, you know, a lot of times we find that a little earlier along our path.
00:51:29.768 --> 00:51:29.858
Mm-hmm.
00:51:30.099 --> 00:51:43.768
So that's a great thing to keep in mind is, while you have the opportunity and you feel like it's a good time for you, why not go on that adventure and try something new and live in a new place, while you have the ability to do so.
00:51:44.938 --> 00:51:45.539
Absolutely.
00:51:45.539 --> 00:51:52.199
And I mean, it teaches you another, I think, criteria for great leadership, and that's resilience.
00:51:52.778 --> 00:52:06.469
When you consistently like change country, when you have to adapt your lifestyle, when you have to settle into a new country, it's never easy and it's always new and you always have to change your entire infrastructure.
00:52:06.708 --> 00:52:08.369
So, this is how I did it.
00:52:08.369 --> 00:52:11.188
I always moved truly from one country to the other.
00:52:11.509 --> 00:52:15.358
But you're becoming very agile, yeah, more resilient.
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:28.079
So I would always encourage if you have the opportunity to make a move out of the country where you studied or out of the city where you studied, or the US is so big, out of the state, try it out.
00:52:28.134 --> 00:52:28.554
Mm-hmm.
00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:29.608
Yeah.
00:52:29.909 --> 00:52:40.929
And I like the other thing you brought up about, these different industries, because I think sometimes, it probably sounds really scary to completely change industries.
00:52:40.929 --> 00:52:49.568
But the reality is there are so many types of jobs and roles that can easily move between industries.
00:52:49.568 --> 00:52:49.688
Mm-hmm.
00:52:49.929 --> 00:52:52.329
And maybe people don't think about that quite as much.
00:52:52.329 --> 00:52:56.409
Like, oh, I have a specialization over here, you know, I really should stay in my lane.
00:52:56.409 --> 00:53:02.619
But you can bring a whole new perspective to a different industry because your role is still your role.
00:53:02.619 --> 00:53:12.838
It may fit in a little bit differently and have some things that are different, but, a lot of the roles that people have in companies can easily be transferable into other industries.
00:53:12.838 --> 00:53:19.768
So what has your experience been like with that, and do you have some advice for people who may be hesitating to do that?
00:53:20.929 --> 00:53:22.338
Yeah, that's a very good question.
00:53:22.338 --> 00:53:23.449
And I agree with you.
00:53:23.539 --> 00:53:29.248
You have transferable jobs and skills, as long as it doesn't become arbitrary.
00:53:29.878 --> 00:53:30.179
Yeah.
00:53:30.179 --> 00:53:33.389
You shouldn't change jobs for the sake of changing jobs.
00:53:33.809 --> 00:53:38.309
And it also, while I agree with you, there's one point you need to be aware of.
00:53:38.878 --> 00:53:42.179
Eventually, you're becoming more of a generalist than a specialist.
00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:42.989
Yeah.
00:53:42.994 --> 00:53:43.213
Mm-hmm.
00:53:43.293 --> 00:53:43.494
Okay.
00:53:43.498 --> 00:53:53.278
And that means in times of crisis, and I wanna be very open here, companies quite often tend to hire specialists, and not generalists.
00:53:53.514 --> 00:53:54.864
So you need to be patient.
00:53:55.324 --> 00:54:09.963
But on the other side, while I was a lawyer, I benefited highly from changing industries because I needed to change my perspective with every single industry and why I could rely on my toolbox, which was universally applicable.
00:54:10.543 --> 00:54:21.614
I became a better lawyer because I needed to approach problems differently and I could eventually see the complexity of the company beyond like a certain industry.
00:54:21.914 --> 00:54:26.123
So for me, it was very beneficial, while I was staying in my legal lane.
00:54:26.463 --> 00:54:28.983
It worked extremely well.
00:54:29.233 --> 00:54:34.123
It's might be a little bit more challenging when you are in business roles than you should think about.
00:54:34.123 --> 00:54:40.233
A, don't make it arbitrary and be aware that you're becoming or you could become a generalist.
00:54:40.474 --> 00:54:40.744
Yeah.
00:54:40.864 --> 00:54:40.893
Okay.
00:54:41.344 --> 00:54:42.693
Yeah, that's a great point.
00:54:43.193 --> 00:54:44.423
It's really not black and white.
00:54:44.423 --> 00:54:50.784
It's amazing to do this, and I think a lot of people underestimate it, so don't be scared by my comment.
00:54:51.143 --> 00:54:53.224
But ask yourself, what do you want to be?
00:54:53.278 --> 00:54:53.699
Mm-hmm.
00:54:53.974 --> 00:55:02.313
Are you comfortable with kind of the discomfort of being surrounded by people who know more about the matter than you are?
00:55:02.313 --> 00:55:06.623
Which comes back to when you enter into your management role and where's your comfort zone?
00:55:07.014 --> 00:55:16.378
So ask this question to yourself, and I think this is the guiding question for changing industries more often, less often, but look, we are talking about industries.
00:55:16.958 --> 00:55:18.068
That are so broad.
00:55:18.068 --> 00:55:23.588
Even if you're staying within one industry, you probably have 10 thousands of different experiences.
00:55:23.588 --> 00:55:30.699
Small companies, large companies, global companies, national companies, they all tick differently and give you a different exposure.
00:55:31.088 --> 00:55:32.378
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
00:55:32.409 --> 00:55:39.273
And some of those moves could be very intentional if you see a job or a type of position you're interested in down the road and mm-hmm.
00:55:39.603 --> 00:55:46.474
If you're doing your research and see, well, some people have this background and some people have that background, maybe I could have both backgrounds.
00:55:47.108 --> 00:55:47.884
Correct, correct.
00:55:47.884 --> 00:55:49.173
And kind of do that intentionally.
00:55:49.744 --> 00:55:50.103
Yeah.
00:55:50.103 --> 00:55:54.503
Well maybe like I was doing it in my next job, and yes, there are still a couple more.
00:55:55.003 --> 00:55:56.114
Interesting thing is.
00:55:56.304 --> 00:56:01.233
I moved industries because I've explained, I've been in waste management.
00:56:01.233 --> 00:56:03.364
I've been in component manufacturing.
00:56:03.423 --> 00:56:07.273
I've been in container terminal logistic services.
00:56:07.543 --> 00:56:14.204
But I've spent most of my career, or I had spent my entire career at that point in old industries.
00:56:14.983 --> 00:56:17.594
And I felt Jesus, the world is changing.
00:56:17.643 --> 00:56:21.393
There's a lot about digitalization, there's a lot about technology.
00:56:21.664 --> 00:56:31.264
So I need to push myself out of a comfort zone and I should seek an opportunity in an industry that requires me to really deep dive into this field.
00:56:31.664 --> 00:56:34.333
That is all about digitalization.
00:56:34.333 --> 00:56:37.304
This is all about the new economy.
00:56:37.304 --> 00:56:40.623
It's all about the internet of things.
00:56:40.623 --> 00:56:42.393
It's about connectivity.
00:56:42.643 --> 00:56:48.284
So I intentionally choose to leave APM Terminals, despite the great experiences I had.
00:56:48.583 --> 00:56:56.108
I was dealing with things like I'd never imagined, specifically in the field of compliance about labor law.
00:56:56.108 --> 00:56:58.869
I was traveling the entire world with this company.
00:56:58.869 --> 00:57:01.599
I was supporting projects in Morocco.
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:07.329
I was supporting projects in Mexico, in Russia, Ivory Coast, everywhere.
00:57:07.568 --> 00:57:08.409
That was amazing.
00:57:08.409 --> 00:57:17.759
But I felt like Oosh, I should see where all this is leading, and, expose myself to something I wasn't very comfortable with and it was tech.
00:57:18.389 --> 00:57:21.389
So yeah, and this is where I called the head hunter.
00:57:21.389 --> 00:57:34.139
So it's always maybe also good of advice for students to, early on, look into companies, head hunting companies you trust in and build a relationship when you wanna make these career moves because it works both ways.
00:57:34.708 --> 00:57:36.539
Yeah, I mean, the timing needs to be right.
00:57:36.539 --> 00:57:39.989
You need to have the right advisor on the other side.
00:57:39.989 --> 00:57:48.688
But it's always good to start to know who is important in your field and to see when it's a good time for you to connect with them.
00:57:49.018 --> 00:57:54.148
I mean, don't keep a headhunter busy when you're not interested finding a new job, right?
00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:54.389
Yeah.
00:57:54.389 --> 00:57:56.338
Because they are earning the money with that.
00:57:56.528 --> 00:58:05.259
But it's good to start rather early on in your career, to figure out what these folks are doing and who might be a good fit for you at your career.
00:58:05.949 --> 00:58:07.688
Again, another type of networking.
00:58:08.168 --> 00:58:08.259
Mm-hmm.
00:58:08.918 --> 00:58:17.568
So when you decided that you wanted to make that kind of move into something that was more tech related, that you didn't have the industry background.
00:58:17.568 --> 00:58:20.679
And was that coming from a personal interest of yours to do that?
00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:29.438
Or did you have your sights set on something within your career that you felt it was necessary for you to have that background to get to where you wanted to go?
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:30.518
Yeah.
00:58:30.518 --> 00:58:39.938
Well, I felt a little bit, I might be stuck at the industries I worked on, and, it was always B2B, it was always heavy labor.
00:58:39.938 --> 00:58:50.469
It was old economy and I sense that I should, I have to expose, I have to boost myself into the 21st century.
00:58:50.469 --> 00:59:00.204
And I also felt I wanna work as a legal counsel for a company where I didn't know the products that well and they were not that self-explanatory.
00:59:00.204 --> 00:59:04.478
So I thought, I'm pushing myself a little bit into a zone of discomfort.
00:59:05.349 --> 00:59:05.739
Okay.
00:59:06.469 --> 00:59:08.298
So a little bit of both maybe?
00:59:08.329 --> 00:59:08.389
Yeah.
00:59:08.438 --> 00:59:12.878
Was part of that thinking that you might miss out on opportunities later?
00:59:12.878 --> 00:59:12.969
Mm-hmm.
00:59:12.998 --> 00:59:15.338
If you didn't start getting some of that under your belt?
00:59:15.759 --> 00:59:16.179
Yeah.
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:18.039
This is how I would describe it.
00:59:18.088 --> 00:59:22.289
That I would be more marketable as they say, if I had this exposure.
00:59:22.289 --> 00:59:26.338
But I also felt I can't just stay in my bubble.
00:59:26.778 --> 00:59:30.168
I need to push myself a bit out of my comfort zone.
00:59:30.829 --> 00:59:31.039
Yeah.
00:59:31.068 --> 00:59:33.668
I have to say this is probably a very personal thread.
00:59:33.838 --> 00:59:35.518
I have the tendency to do this.
00:59:35.518 --> 00:59:36.358
Mm-hmm.
00:59:36.583 --> 00:59:37.443
So mm-hmm.
00:59:37.528 --> 00:59:41.938
To not shying away from giving myself a bit of the extra push.
00:59:42.418 --> 00:59:42.869
Yeah.
00:59:42.914 --> 00:59:42.974
Yeah.
00:59:43.693 --> 00:59:43.994
Yeah.
00:59:44.443 --> 00:59:46.153
So what happened as a result of that?
00:59:46.153 --> 00:59:48.103
You said you reached out to a headhunter and what happened?
00:59:48.134 --> 00:59:55.693
Yeah, so I joined Juniper Networks, another US based company, a Sunnyvale company, so directly into Silicon Valley.
00:59:55.974 --> 00:59:56.963
I did that.
00:59:57.364 --> 00:59:59.793
And it was a very interesting experience.
00:59:59.793 --> 01:00:02.733
I worked extremely close with their commercial department.
01:00:03.364 --> 01:00:11.594
But after having supported major infrastructure projects in this world, it was nearly a too small role for me.
01:00:12.213 --> 01:00:18.324
Just working with a commercial team and not having this broad exposure as I had with APM terminal.
01:00:18.324 --> 01:00:21.054
So there was probably a career step.
01:00:21.393 --> 01:00:28.083
I wouldn't say it wasn't a bad experience, but in hindsight it was the wrong job for me.
01:00:28.699 --> 01:00:29.028
Yeah.
01:00:29.309 --> 01:00:31.949
Not even the wrong company, but it was the wrong role.
01:00:32.608 --> 01:00:34.918
And, this is when life happens.
01:00:35.309 --> 01:00:38.768
I met my partner, who used to live in Berlin.
01:00:38.768 --> 01:00:40.989
I was still living in the Netherlands.
01:00:41.048 --> 01:00:43.748
I didn't feel the role was a great fit.
01:00:44.148 --> 01:00:46.099
And this is how I changed jobs again.
01:00:46.668 --> 01:00:52.998
So in hindsight, I would say that was probably a career decision that wasn't very wise.
01:00:53.969 --> 01:00:57.088
But also these things happen and you always take something with you.
01:00:57.088 --> 01:00:59.248
And I got to meet great people.
01:00:59.248 --> 01:01:11.849
I certainly had great learnings and as it turns out, this, although rather short, experience like two years, was actually something that helped me to nail down my next job, because I simply had it under my belt.
01:01:11.969 --> 01:01:13.108
I worked with a tech company.
01:01:13.824 --> 01:01:20.373
Because I was then applying for the first time in my life, for a B2C company, and I moved into online dating.
01:01:21.364 --> 01:01:22.173
Oh, wow.
01:01:22.204 --> 01:01:22.293
Mm-hmm.
01:01:22.534 --> 01:01:22.804
Okay.
01:01:23.313 --> 01:01:35.123
So that's, that does sound like a, we were laughing because, it's been so interesting to see how some people's job changes on paper, you would look at it and be like, what?
01:01:35.753 --> 01:01:36.923
Like, how does this make sense?
01:01:37.253 --> 01:01:44.333
But really, but when you listen to the story, there's all of these threads that connect it and it actually makes a lot of sense.
01:01:44.333 --> 01:01:46.664
So could you tell us how that worked for you?
01:01:47.293 --> 01:01:54.193
Yeah, so that was amazing because, I mean, it was also that I was very intrigued by the role I was with Spark Networks.
01:01:54.253 --> 01:02:06.324
Spark Networks is a house of brand brands primarily of online dating brands in the US market at the time being so, like JD Christian Minger, a lot of serious dating.
01:02:06.324 --> 01:02:10.858
Eventually Spark Networks acquired Zeus, which is less on the serious side.
01:02:11.259 --> 01:02:17.648
They have been listed at the New York Stock Exchange at the time being, but were a German incorporated.
01:02:17.978 --> 01:02:29.909
And I mean, as a lawyer you can't ask for something more complex and more interesting and you get the entire exposure, into the SEC dynamics while still having to manage your German incorporation.
01:02:29.909 --> 01:02:36.313
And they were searching for a general counsel, and I mean, ultimately that's the ultimate career goal.
01:02:36.623 --> 01:02:44.509
Usually when you are not a US trained lawyer, you have no chance to become the general counsel of being New York Stock Exchange listed.
01:02:44.688 --> 01:02:46.099
For good reasons, by the way.
01:02:46.389 --> 01:02:51.193
So I had amazing, amazing advisors and counsel that helped me through this, through this experience.
01:02:51.614 --> 01:02:56.228
But it was just something that was too good to be true, just, from a role scope.
01:02:56.438 --> 01:02:58.929
And it was in Berlin where my partner lived.
01:02:59.248 --> 01:03:02.068
It was online dating, so that's pretty cool.
01:03:02.378 --> 01:03:10.889
So it was just an amazing role and funnily enough, this role where I thought like, wow, I'm now a general counsel of this New York Stock Exchange listed company.
01:03:11.188 --> 01:03:11.248
Yeah.
01:03:11.309 --> 01:03:13.018
Pushed me out of my legal career.
01:03:13.989 --> 01:03:23.739
It was not necessarily me that was saying it in my case, but it was more like, when I joined the company, they just, went through the acquisition of Zeus.
01:03:24.068 --> 01:03:30.958
Zeus was a US based, online dating service, twice the size of Spark Networks.
01:03:31.278 --> 01:03:38.219
And obviously there were amazing synergies, but they all needed to put into practice and there was a lot of stress.
01:03:38.804 --> 01:03:45.079
On the organization, a lot of stress on obviously the C level at Spark Networks.
01:03:45.389 --> 01:03:52.208
And that led to some decisions, where the CEO felt he needs to restructure the organization.
01:03:52.208 --> 01:04:00.688
And he decided that I'm smart enough, agile enough, I don't know, but certainly that he found a trustworthy ally.
01:04:00.809 --> 01:04:08.278
So he said, well, Gitte, you're not only doing legal now, you are also running the HR department and talent acquisition.
01:04:08.778 --> 01:04:14.134
And he was just seeing something in me and then trusted me with a task that needed oversight.
01:04:14.233 --> 01:04:25.289
And he saw, uh, back to the point what we said, there's always a set of, of underlying skills that you acquire no matter what you study, no matter what your profession is.
01:04:25.588 --> 01:04:30.849
And it could well be that this skillset matches an entirely different profile.
01:04:31.539 --> 01:04:32.739
And that was the case here.
01:04:32.739 --> 01:04:37.869
So there was a lot to organize, a lot of restructuring with regard to labor laws.
01:04:38.179 --> 01:04:45.278
There was a lot of structure to be brought, and I mean, you learn this as a lawyer, especially when you're working on heaps of different projects.
01:04:45.278 --> 01:04:48.708
You are usually kind of like very pragmatic, straightforward.
01:04:49.168 --> 01:04:52.528
And this is what he wanted and what the company needed.
01:04:52.858 --> 01:05:02.168
And this is where I, for the first time, had to run a department, which I didn't prepare for at university or with specific education.
01:05:02.369 --> 01:05:08.768
I just applied my toolkit and what I was listening to the experts.
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:13.273
I was empowering the experts and, it was an amazing experience.
01:05:13.273 --> 01:05:16.753
From there, we just went on whenever there was a field.
01:05:16.963 --> 01:05:24.664
And that happened with, so eventually the CEO of Smart Networks changed roles, step out of the company and new CEO came in.
01:05:24.873 --> 01:05:26.103
And it was the same thing.
01:05:26.103 --> 01:05:34.634
Whenever there was a department that needed structure, that needed support, that needed management, it was handed over to me.
01:05:34.634 --> 01:05:38.025
And so I eventually became a COO.
01:05:38.333 --> 01:05:46.733
Overseeing it at one point, corporate security, cybersecurity, OKRs, customer care.
01:05:47.043 --> 01:05:58.168
So everything that was playing on the edge of compliance, structure, risk management, and this is whenever I speak to younger colleagues or to law students, I tell'em.
01:05:58.648 --> 01:06:03.389
Especially those that wanna go in-house, they are risk managers more than anything else.
01:06:03.898 --> 01:06:04.079
Mm-hmm.
01:06:04.528 --> 01:06:04.798
Yeah.
01:06:04.798 --> 01:06:08.938
And so whenever there was a risky area, I was called to manage it.
01:06:09.268 --> 01:06:10.768
This is how I became a COO.
01:06:11.768 --> 01:06:11.949
Yeah.
01:06:11.949 --> 01:06:12.728
Simple as that.
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:13.298
Yeah.
01:06:13.304 --> 01:06:15.789
Well, I was gonna say it, it actually really makes sense.
01:06:15.789 --> 01:06:17.469
Would you talk through it like that?
01:06:17.469 --> 01:06:25.838
But when it was initially presented to you or initially handed off to you, what were you thinking?
01:06:25.838 --> 01:06:29.889
Like, were you thinking, okay, like I, I can make this work, I can look into this and learn?
01:06:29.889 --> 01:06:31.268
Did it seem very overwhelming?
01:06:31.268 --> 01:06:35.978
Like how did you react and how did you kind of take those initial steps to step into that?
01:06:37.059 --> 01:06:46.298
I mean, obviously you're not telling a CEO, that is offering you this opportunity that you are scared and you actually think it's totally, of course, yeah.
01:06:46.628 --> 01:06:49.688
So there was kind of like, I was like, yeah, that's cool.
01:06:49.688 --> 01:06:50.199
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:51.068
I can do this.
01:06:51.489 --> 01:06:58.329
And behind the scenes I was calling my boyfriend said, I just, I have no idea what to do with the HR department.
01:06:58.699 --> 01:07:08.889
He's very encouraging and I think this is also important that you have in your life people that encourage you to take these risks and that also say, well, so what is going to happen if you fail?
01:07:09.429 --> 01:07:09.668
Yeah.
01:07:09.673 --> 01:07:09.954
Mm-hmm.
01:07:09.954 --> 01:07:09.954
Right.
01:07:10.128 --> 01:07:11.809
I mean, you're not a heart surgeon.
01:07:12.528 --> 01:07:12.798
Yeah.
01:07:12.858 --> 01:07:13.219
Right.
01:07:13.219 --> 01:07:14.184
So, exactly.
01:07:14.184 --> 01:07:14.344
Yeah.
01:07:15.094 --> 01:07:21.393
You are working with experienced and decent human beings and they will reign you in if you are not doing a good job.
01:07:21.793 --> 01:07:26.403
Obviously that really depends on the role, but, yeah, I was scared.
01:07:26.958 --> 01:07:33.528
I thought it's bonkers, bizarre to give a lawyer of all things an HR department, which is about people.
01:07:33.889 --> 01:07:34.248
Yeah.
01:07:34.278 --> 01:07:38.298
But honestly you are growing with the tasks really like that.
01:07:38.628 --> 01:07:42.199
It sounds as if my parents or my grandparents would tell me that.
01:07:42.199 --> 01:07:46.599
But you grow with the opportunity and with the challenge, you really honestly do.
01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:53.199
As long as you're staying open-minded and you understand that you don't need to know it all right.
01:07:53.199 --> 01:07:53.829
Learning path.
01:07:53.829 --> 01:07:54.909
So we get back to that.
01:07:55.838 --> 01:07:56.018
Yeah.
01:07:56.028 --> 01:07:57.349
I mean, I'm so glad you just said that.
01:07:57.378 --> 01:07:59.739
'cause also, I think women struggle with this, right?
01:07:59.739 --> 01:08:10.239
There's been a lot of articles over the last several years that women are more likely to only apply to jobs when they feel like they already know how to do all of those things that are listed.
01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:10.659
Right.
01:08:10.719 --> 01:08:18.128
And men are more likely to apply to jobs when there's a lot of the job description they don't know how to do yet'cause they're confident they can figure it out.
01:08:18.128 --> 01:08:18.458
Right?
01:08:18.458 --> 01:08:27.894
And it's just so interesting to, to put it in that light and to remind people that you do not have to know all of the things before you've even started.
01:08:28.264 --> 01:08:31.923
There's a structure in place and you can ask for help and you can learn things.
01:08:31.923 --> 01:08:33.094
There's so many different ways mm-hmm.
01:08:33.333 --> 01:08:35.463
That you can learn what you need to learn.
01:08:35.743 --> 01:08:39.404
Obviously you wanna be honest when you're in a job interview for things like that.
01:08:39.404 --> 01:08:40.394
But also, of course, yeah.
01:08:40.453 --> 01:08:42.823
You know, communicate like, I'm here to learn.
01:08:42.823 --> 01:08:50.564
I'm here to figure it out and, you know, I figured it out this time and that time and that other time and these other jobs and I can do it again.
01:08:50.564 --> 01:08:53.033
And that's such a great reminder for people to remember.
01:08:53.033 --> 01:08:56.453
You do not have to know all of it before you've even started.
01:08:57.413 --> 01:08:57.984
Exactly.
01:08:58.043 --> 01:09:03.144
And that brings us back to reading job descriptions and understanding the impact.
01:09:03.503 --> 01:09:10.253
And also asking, when you're applying for a job, ask the company and said, so how do you measure success for this role?
01:09:10.613 --> 01:09:12.234
What's the immediate impact?
01:09:12.234 --> 01:09:13.224
I still do this.
01:09:13.458 --> 01:09:16.519
Yeah, and I'm now applying for very senior roles.
01:09:16.849 --> 01:09:27.708
But I think it's very important, and the more senior you are, the more important it is to, to underst, have a very clear understanding of what is expected to also take a decision.
01:09:27.708 --> 01:09:33.229
Is this something that interests you, but where you can also add value to the company.
01:09:33.708 --> 01:09:37.038
And sometimes it is just not the right fit.
01:09:37.819 --> 01:09:41.029
I think the question for what are you expecting from this role?
01:09:41.029 --> 01:09:45.019
What's the impact you want the role to have is so instrumental.
01:09:46.234 --> 01:09:47.253
Yeah, absolutely.
01:09:47.684 --> 01:09:58.238
There is now another company, I'm the COO of where we just announced, for Deezer that, after 15 years of not being profitable, the company is profitable for the first time.
01:09:58.448 --> 01:10:18.599
So that was another, yeah, that was another exposure as a COO, again, an amazing company and I feel I'm not only growing professional, but also personally more and more, because I can be more and more open, but overall that summarizes very well, where I'm coming from and I have no idea where I'm going.
01:10:18.599 --> 01:10:18.658
Yeah.
01:10:18.779 --> 01:10:22.038
But I just trust that great opportunities are coming my way.
01:10:22.038 --> 01:10:23.298
I stay open-minded.
01:10:23.809 --> 01:10:26.479
It might continue maybe in a time different direction.
01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:26.809
Who knows?
01:10:27.094 --> 01:10:27.363
Yeah.
01:10:27.363 --> 01:10:28.054
Absolutely.
01:10:28.604 --> 01:10:44.413
So looking back on your story, do you have any pieces of advice that maybe somebody gave you along the way that really made an impact on you at that time, or something that you really keep with you as you go through your journey and you reflect back on?
01:10:44.413 --> 01:10:52.094
Or is there just any big life lesson that you learned that you feel like is a important thread through your story that you would wanna share with students?
01:10:53.413 --> 01:10:58.404
Probably things that all of your listeners have heard of before, but they turn out to be true.
01:10:58.694 --> 01:10:59.533
Trust in yourself.
01:10:59.644 --> 01:11:00.373
Be confident.
01:11:00.873 --> 01:11:14.029
Don't be cocky, don't overestimate what you can, but be confident in your own skills, in your own talent, but also be confident enough to admit the limitations.
01:11:14.408 --> 01:11:26.168
And the other thing that I learned throughout my entire career, and that has also been, all the great leaders I had a chance to work with, they were always tough when it came to business calls.
01:11:26.168 --> 01:11:29.738
Very tough, very smart, but they were always kind to people.
01:11:29.738 --> 01:11:30.729
Mm-hmm.
01:11:30.918 --> 01:11:33.679
This goes back a little bit into the network direction.
01:11:34.198 --> 01:11:35.368
You don't need to be.
01:11:37.198 --> 01:11:38.219
Yeah, the tough cookie.
01:11:38.609 --> 01:11:42.658
Another word comes to mind, which we would probably have to be out.
01:11:42.929 --> 01:11:44.594
I think we know what you mean, everyone else.
01:11:45.054 --> 01:11:45.988
So don't be that.
01:11:46.469 --> 01:11:47.969
Yeah, you don't have to be, that.
01:11:48.059 --> 01:11:54.588
You can be extremely tough and you should kind of like always defend the interests of the company, of your team.
01:11:54.779 --> 01:11:58.498
You are there to be successful, but you can still be very kind to people.
01:11:58.998 --> 01:12:02.238
Maybe we don't talk about that enough in career discussions.
01:12:02.238 --> 01:12:02.628
Right.
01:12:02.679 --> 01:12:20.019
Because I mean, we all know people that we've worked with that they could be one of the best in their industry or the best in their field or where you work, but if they are so unpleasant to interact with that nobody wants to interact with them.
01:12:20.019 --> 01:12:20.408
Right.
01:12:20.408 --> 01:12:31.878
And it's really unfortunate the types of collaborations that could be missed or the types of things that could be accomplished, if somebody's just so unpleasant to be around or to interact with, that's huge.
01:12:31.878 --> 01:12:38.798
Maybe we don't talk about that enough, but that can be a huge part and can have a big impact on your own ability to advance in your career.
01:12:39.578 --> 01:12:45.939
And I mean, when you advance in your career, you will eventually land in a management position in most areas.
01:12:46.564 --> 01:12:51.274
And, a team will spot when you're not coming in there with good intentions.
01:12:51.293 --> 01:12:51.354
Yeah.
01:12:51.384 --> 01:12:56.123
But when you are coming in there with good, and you have to send tough messages consistently.
01:12:56.423 --> 01:13:10.363
And you have to eventually defend decisions that are not your own and you might not be a hundred percent aligned with, or when your team feels you're coming with best intention, with having their interest and the company's interest at heart, you're just kind to them.
01:13:10.764 --> 01:13:13.134
They trust you and they will help you to succeed.
01:13:13.703 --> 01:13:14.363
Absolutely.
01:13:15.384 --> 01:13:23.694
Well Gitte, I am so appreciative of your time today and your generosity with telling your story and giving all of this fantastic advice.
01:13:23.944 --> 01:13:25.894
Thank you so much for joining us today.
01:13:26.463 --> 01:13:27.673
Thank you so much, Carrie.
01:13:27.694 --> 01:13:28.594
It's been a pleasure.
01:13:28.804 --> 01:13:29.644
Thanks for having me.
01:13:30.213 --> 01:13:30.904
Thank you.
01:13:32.997 --> 01:13:34.587
Do you know someone I should interview?
01:13:35.037 --> 01:13:39.867
Please DM me on Instagram@pathsinprogresspodcast and let me know who I should talk to.
01:13:40.436 --> 01:13:43.497
I would love to hear about how these stories are impacting your journey.
01:13:43.976 --> 01:13:48.987
Please follow Paths in Progress wherever you download your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think.
01:13:49.817 --> 01:13:54.256
You can also follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn at Paths in Progress Podcast.
01:13:54.676 --> 01:13:58.207
Our music is by John Grimmett and the artwork is by Edgar Alanis.
01:13:58.516 --> 01:13:59.896
Thanks again for joining me today.