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No filter, no filter, no apologies.
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Strong women, real talk, no sailors.
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We rise together, we say it loud.
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We've spent September talking about some very different things.
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Burnout, ambition, perimenopause at work, attention, interruption, and what it takes to keep performing when life and work are demanding more of us.
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Somewhere along the way, we realized we kept bumping into a question we hadn't really answered.
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What is consuming our capacity that doesn't show up on our actual workload?
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And that's why today's guest is here.
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Dr.
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Leanne Davey, known as the teamwork doctor, is a New York Times bestselling author, keynote speaker, and executive advisor who has spent three decades helping people accomplish amazing things together.
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Her latest book, Thought Load, Manage the Manus, and Free Your Team to Do Great Work, tackles the mental and emotional overload affecting today's teams.
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We met Leanne when she spoke at the ATV South Florida Champions of Learning event in April, and her work stayed with us.
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Leanne, welcome to No Filter, No Apologies.
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Oh, thank you so much.
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I'm so excited to see you again, Rebecca.
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And nice to meet you, Katie.
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Nice to meet you.
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Thank you for being here with us.
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Yes, we're very happy you are here.
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And so that something interesting happened after we saw you speak.
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We recorded this stretch of episodes without deliberately connecting them to your work.
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We want to give you the topics.
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And before we tell you what we think connects them, hear what you're doing.
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It's like a quiz show.
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I like it.
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So imposter syndrome, high functioning burnout, working harder without necessarily getting ahead, perimetopause at work, constant interruption, and fractured attention.
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So when you hear those five conversations together, what do you see?
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I see, hear, smell, feel, thought load, baby.
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Oh wow.
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It's like a I'm a Gen Xer.
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I think of it, it's like a scratch and sniff sticker.
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I'm like, if we had a scratch and sniff sticker for thought load.
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Yep, I know what that is.
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All of those.
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Wow.
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Oh, all of those.
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Yes.
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What would you say connect them?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think it's just it's this everything coming at us from the outside, mashing into everything going on inside us, right?
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So there's just there's tumult in both, right?
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These massive waves crashing against us when we already are trying to cope with so much going on in our internal narratives.
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So I think that connects all of these things, right?
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So it's it's a lot these days.
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I'm just getting ready to go out to dinner.
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And I was just thinking about meeting up with this friend.
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And like all I could think of was like, I just I can't wait to sit down and have a lovely dinner and just talk about how it's a lot.
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Yeah, it's so true.
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I was just sharing with someone how all of a sudden I'll be doing one task, and then you see something, and you're like, oh, I have to do that, and you go do that.
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And before you know it, you have six started things and none of them are finished, and you haven't gotten to the work that you meant to do a little bit later.
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And I was just sharing with a friend earlier this morning, and I said, the way that I cope with that now is just my lists.
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I live by lists and have a giant one here with things crossed off, can't see it.
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But the way that I get it out of my brain is to write it down on my list to say, okay, I need to stay focused.
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I need to focus on what's true, but I need to get it out of my brain, otherwise, I'm gonna be overwhelmed by the thought load and not necessarily the workload.
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And so I'll put it on my list to get to another day and I feel like okay, I've done something with it.
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So it's not consuming me.
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Yeah, that's a that's the getting it out of your brain and putting it on a piece of paper or in a digital file or whatever, that's excellent.
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That's brilliant.
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The only course correction we're gonna make, and we can talk more about this, but you can't have one list.
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When you have one list, I talk about to-do lists as being evil because they're long, right?
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And then you catch it out of your peripheral vision and just go like, like that, that's that's a six-week list, and it I made it for today, right?
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And and the other thing is when our thought load is high, we're not very good at picking the right thing off the list to do.
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So, so you're onto something really great with getting it out of your head and putting it somewhere safe.
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That's that works, and that's very true.
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You can take it out of your thought load.
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We'll just give you a few tips about a better place to put it than just one long to-do list.
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I think a lot of people operate on lists.
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I joke, I learned it from my mom who used to write it on the back of envelopes and mail.
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Speaking of Gen X, that was something parents did.
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So I used to have one list.
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It was like my home list book and my work list book.
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Then managing the list became too much.
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So I have one list book, but then I'll break it by day.
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So then I'm only looking at what I have to do that day and I don't add anything to the day that I'm already in.
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I'll try and add it to later on.
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So, what would your recommendation be to our listeners out there who maybe one have never started a list?
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I think you touched on that.
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Or two, what are the best practices if you're operating with lists like that?
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Yeah.
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So one of the problems is that list will have everything on it from like the most essential, important part of your job that's the value you're creating in your role, right down to we haven't yet done the compliance training on safe use of box cutters, right?
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All those things end up on the same list.
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So the problem is when our thought load is high, the thing we pull off of that list is often the thing attached to the scariest person or the thing that just popped up in our inbox.
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And that's not the best way to prioritize a list.
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So I talk about having three lists instead of one.
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So the first list is what are the things that are absolutely essential to the outcome I'm here to create?
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And I'm okay with your home list merging with your work list, but it's like the most important outcomes for me.
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What are the number one, number two, and number three things I want to do today to advan or this week even to advance on my quest, my most important things.
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That list should be unadulterated, not full of compliance training or anything else, or take the dry cleaning or any of those things.
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The second list is that when we work in an organization, we have lots to contribute to other people's most important outcomes.
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And probably you're getting requests from all over.
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I need you to come to this meeting, I need you to help write this proposal, I need you to so second list, this is a hard one because we have to really raise our game is what are the most unique to us things we need to contribute to support our colleagues in achieving their outcomes?
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And again, number one, number two, and number three.
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And you probably had number four, number five, number six, number seven, number twelve.
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And it's really important to say which of those are the most important and urgent and unique to me, and not to just let everything on that list take over your list.
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So that's the second list.
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And then the third list, I call them the side quests.
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That's where if you got to do compliance training or you're you're in a publicly traded company and the SEC requires that you fill in some form, or there's lots of side quests we have to do to keep the lights on.
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But again, put those in order and work through them.
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So when we have three lists, then we can say in the most precious time in our week, I'm gonna fill that precious, high energy creative time with my list.
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Then I'm gonna look at the second tier of my time and I'm gonna fill it with those ways I collaborate and connect with people.
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And then that third list, I'm putting that in the little spots in between meetings, Thursday at 4:30, when my attention span is like that of a goldfish.
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And if we do that, then we spend our best energy and our best attention on the things that matter most.
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When we just have one list and you start your day and you're drinking your coffee, you're like, oh, I'm gonna do a bunch of those side quests right now.
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We waste our best time on the least value-added work.
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So that's the difference in having three lists, is so that we can put those activities in the spots where they belong instead of what most of us do, which is I say, What are you doing in your prime time?
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I'm responding to Slack messages and I'm sitting in meetings and I'm like, where are you doing your most important stuff?
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Evenings and weekends usually.
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So yeah.
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So we need to have three lists, not one, so that we can put our best energy and attention on the stuff that matters most.
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And I would say that's that is definitely at work, but that's also at home.
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What is it that really matters at home?
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And what are you gonna do in the time when you're most present, right?
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Versus yeah.
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So really important to think that way.
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I love that.
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Rebecca and I just talked about in a previous episode how you'll go through a workday, and because you might have your plan and you have your calendar of meetings, and then the team's message comes through.
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Hey, do you have a second?
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And then the email pops up.
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Can you just review this really quickly?
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And before you know it, it's lunchtime and you haven't touched anything, not only your daily plan, but your weekly plan.
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So, how would you recommend our listeners manage that?
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Yeah, book it.
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So you could say, I keep from 11 to 12 o'clock each day and four to five o'clock for requests from colleagues, tidying things up.
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I find by 11, I'm kind of like, right?
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I'm pretty good until uh because I'm a morning person.
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So if I'm starting at 7:30, by 11, it's not so great.
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So, okay, before I take lunch, I'm gonna make sure if there's anything my colleagues need, if there's anything my customers need, if there's anything urgent in my email, I've created a spot.
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So you just literally respond.
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You first of all, I would actually train my colleagues to know that's where I have the spot.
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So if you want to slide something into my 11 o'clock spot, let me know.
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But if you haven't trained them, then you're just literally responding with, I'm heads down at the moment, and be happy to take a peek at that before I take a lunch break.
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I love that.
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I am not a morning person, I can't share that with you.
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No, but then again, what's going in your most precious time?
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If at three o'clock you're just starting to cook with gas, are you sitting in a bunch of operations meetings that are useless?
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And how many of those slots in a week are full of stuff that is not what needs your full brain power?
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It whatever your particular tradidian rhythms are, make it work for you.
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But just ask yourself in my most precious time in the week, what's in there?
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What's squatting on that land?
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And usually the nothing good.
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I think we're all trained to the other thing I talk about in Thought Load is I talk about how managers who reward responsiveness are perpetuating this problem.
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So rewarding responsiveness is just rewarding your team for being distracted.
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Because the only reason they could write back to you right away is that they had their email open or their Slack or their Teams or whatever, and they were watching.
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And that means they were not all in on the work that you're actually paying them to do.
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So, yes, we all have that problem of the side quests all of a sudden like taking over.
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Yes.
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Gotta fix it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Liam, what are the actual pieces that go into Thought Load?
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Yeah, great question.
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So Thought Load itself, I think of as this invisible tax on our performance.
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And the problem is if your manager's looking at you and you're looking exhausted and they're looking at what work you've produced, they're probably like, and you're like, but I'm exhausted.
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That's remember, it's because Thought Load is an invisible tax.
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They can't see all that's weighing on you.
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So think about it as an equation, two things on top and one on the bottom.
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So the two things on the top is all of the cognitive demands, the things you have to pay attention to, the the complexity of what you're dealing with, the decision fatigue, like it's all oof that you have to think and crunch and cope with.
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That's one part.
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The second part is the emotional burdens.
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And that's just all the things that all day long are have causing you to have that reaction of, is he out to get me?
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Am I in trouble?
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The word trouble, it still amazes me how many people in their 40s and 50s making over$100,000 will still use the language of, I'm gonna get in trouble.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, we feel like we're in trouble or or just feeling anxious or feeling down or overwhelmed.
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So there's the emotional burdens.
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That's the load, the cognitive demands and the emotional burdens.
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Oh, and you can feel the weight, even when I say that.
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But the denominator of the equation is your energy reserves.
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So if you think about a day when you slept really well, maybe you had a great weekend, you had protein for breakfast, and you're like, I got this, I can carry that load.
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And other days where you haven't done all those things, you're still riding off the banana nut muffin from seven o'clock this morning, and the even the smallest thing feels just, oh, I can't.
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It's too much.
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So that's why that denominator, like any good denominator, if your energy reserves get smaller, the load gets heavier.
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And as your energy gets bolstered and whatever, the the load feels lighter.
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So those are the three pieces: your cognitive demands, your emotional burdens, and your energy reserves.
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That's what makes up your thought load.
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I get that.
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Especially I was telling Sadie earlier, I just I had a very late night coming in at a late flight.
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And so trying to get my energy going at all today was a struggle, but I did.
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Sound good.
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Yeah, that's those are the days when you really have to plug into something that is intrinsically motivating, right?
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You're like, oh, I'm doing the pod, I love these conversations, and then all of a sudden, humans are incredible in our ability to find energy when we need it.
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But I think right now the problem is we're all trying to sprint a marathon.
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And we think our bodies should be that level of responsive with energy when we never rest, we never recuperate, we never have time to reflect.
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Like, why do we think that our bodies should every single time be willing to, like, here we go, right?
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It's yes, it's nuts, it's nuts.
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My sister and I always talk about how we associate rest with laziness, not for anyone else, but for ourselves.
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Our dad was a marine, our mom was a teacher, and there was always this go and move on to the next thing.
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And as adults now and as parents, we recognize that's a challenge, but we haven't been able to turn it off ourselves.
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We've turned it off for the people around us, but not for ourselves to say it is impossible for our bodies to keep up, for our brains to keep up, and you've got to be organized about it and you have to prioritize these things, but it's very difficult to do.
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Yeah, I think the Marines is a great example because they have thousands of scientists figuring out what are the routines that ensure that our forces have the energy they need when they need it, right?
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We have a false storyline in our heads that people like that don't rest.
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Of course they do.
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It's why there's leave, and it's why, and it's why in the armed forces recently on the aircraft carrier, they're saying, like, no, we know how often you need shore leave, how often you need all that to stay at peak performance.
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I'm not sure why from the outside we tell ourselves these narratives that aren't true, right?
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There may be this perception that even in war, they're still trying to figure out who rotates to the front line and who like all those things so that you can be at peak performance.
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So Olympic athletes are the other ones.
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So Olympic athletes are obsessed with rest, obsessed, right?
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And so I'm not sure uh why we make up this fiction that high performers don't rest.
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It's crap, it's just fiction, it's false.
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And but what they do is they don't do wasteful rest, they do deliberate rest, right?
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They do things that renew them.
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And so, yeah, like flopping on the couch and watching TikTok, I'm willing to be like, okay, I'm gonna feel guilty about that.
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But when I sit down on the couch and I read fiction, I'm doing it very intentionally for the value I get in raising my empathy.
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When I go for a walk in nature, I'm doing it very deliberately and intentionally because it lowers my blood pressure and it does a lot of other good things.
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So yeah, I think we need a different story.
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And I think if you actually talk to any of these people, I've had the good fortune in my life to meet a bunch of astronauts, which is very cool.
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And and yeah, this whole heroic view we have of them, they disabuse you of that very, very quickly.
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They're like, oh no, we have to do this and this to make sure that our bodies can.
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So I'm not sure why we can't figure out that actually peak performance requires renewable energy.
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I feel like you see it with pilots and flight attendants and even truck drivers, right?
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Mandated to have a certain amount of time off so that their bodies can fully rest.
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You do not want to be on the interstate beside, and we've all been on the interstate beside a trucker who is pushing it or having fake logs or whatever, right?
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It is deadly, incredibly unsafe.
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Yeah.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:00.319
And we've all been beside somebody where the truck is swerving into your lane and you're like, if this thing hits me, we're all dead.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.440
You're probably okay.
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:09.359
So we have regulation in places where where we put somebody else's life on the line, like a pilot or things like that.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:20.799
But like if you don't think that your performance is affecting your family, your kids, your co-workers, your customers when you're in that state, again, you're just making up fiction.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:31.359
What would you say to organizational leaders who have sales floors, for example, where it is that hustle culture, everything seems urgent.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:43.359
How would you advise organizational leaders to maybe change their culture a little bit and consider thought load and take on the responsibility of that focus for their employees or associates?
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.839
I think engage with the associates.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.680
Talk to them what works.
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.160
I know, shocking advice, right?
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.000
Talk to them about what works.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:53.599
Where does the energy lag?
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:55.279
What would make a difference?
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.759
Sometimes it's something as simple as could we put on different music in the back room?
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:05.680
So like I can get, or whatever, could we cover the floor differently at these certain times?
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:10.160
The one I think about all the time is my obstetrician when I had my kids.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:22.720
And they had moved away from the model of everybody gets to have their obstetrician do all of their care and deliver their baby, because she said if I do that, then I'm up in the night all the time.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:24.960
I have no life, I have no predictability.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.759
And then if somebody goes into labor and you were supposed to have a checkup, I'm not going to be there for your checkup.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:36.240
So they had whatever 20 OBGYNs work together in a pool and they took turns.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:43.119
And so every appointment I went to, she saw me within five minutes of the appointment time with full care.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.400
She was rested.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:50.960
And then there would be a couple of weeks where or whatever, like whatever her schedule was, she would be delivering at that time.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.480
And so, you know what?
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.880
I my combined labor for two children was approximately two and a half hours.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.759
Like, I don't care who was on the other end of the stirrups.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:01.920
I'm like, I'm not really paying attention anyway.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:13.279
So, like it because for 50 years since we'd really medicalized birth, we were in this paradigm that it had to be like the doctor for all of your checkups is the doctor that delivers your baby.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.319
I'm like, why?
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.400
So we just so now this obstetrician has a a good life.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.960
We're not losing people from the profession because it's an untenable life.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.960
She has a good life with predictability.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:34.640
She can stay on top of modern research, she all those things because this model makes her thought load manageable.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:42.240
It's really interesting you say that specifically with the obstetrics, because I had preeclampsia that turned into an eclamtic seizure.
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:48.160
But because I had low blood pressure my whole life, it went undiagnosed for a long time.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.559
Yeah.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:56.799
And my doctor had his time off, and a different doctor saw me from a non-stress test and diagnosed me with it and induced me with my son.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.799
Now I still had an eclamtic seizure, but when my doctor came, Came to see me.
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.000
He did make it to deliver my son, which I was grateful for.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.599
But he told me, he's like, I don't know if I would have caught that.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:12.480
And I'm really glad that this other doctor was here and it was on his time.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.599
He was fresh on his shift to something so small.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.279
So it's such a great point.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.559
Yeah, we really get locked in these paradigms that aren't working for us.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:28.079
And we need to just be able to stop and kind of think about it in the thought load framework.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.720
What are the cognitive demands of this job?
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.279
How do we help manage the cognitive demands?
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.839
Where are the big emotional burdens coming in?
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:37.200
And what do we do with it?
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:39.279
How do we renew energy?
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.440
And there's micro resilience in your day, then there's over the midterm.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:51.599
We can actually manage all of this stuff so much more effectively, but we're into this mode of running on a hamster wheel.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.599
And I really don't get it.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.160
I don't either.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:57.119
Not working.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.839
As I keep saying, work ain't working, people.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.960
Work ain't working.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:07.359
And it's wild to see because people think that the the way that you're productive at work is the responsiveness.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:16.319
Or if you're just doing all of the things but not producing anything, but you're always busy, they seem to think that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing at what?
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.440
But that's so Rebecca.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.440
You bring up a really, really important point, right?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:26.000
And this is one of the first points in the book is we have got to chase outcomes, not outputs.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:26.559
Yes.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:32.880
And so if you think about it, you can pay attention to activity, how busy am I, how much am I doing?
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.960
You can pay attention to output, how much am I producing?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.519
And you can pay attention to outcome.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:43.039
Did I change the world in the way I was hoping to change the world?
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:50.319
If you just pay attention to activity, like getting in the morning and responding to your emails, all you're gonna be is busy and burned out.
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:56.480
It's shift toward does that activity translate into an output?
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:02.880
You're gonna become productive, but we are in a productivity trap right now.
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.279
People are producing so much stuff.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:21.920
If you go on LinkedIn and look at what content marketers are producing these days, you're like, ah the question needs to shift to not how much output have we created, but did it move the needle on any of the outcomes that matter?
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.880
So only when we make that shift do we go from being productive to being effective.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.319
And the problem is on the hamster wheel, we can produce a lot, right?
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.640
But it's a lot of stuff that's not moving the needle.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:42.000
So, how do we start focusing on outcomes instead of outputs?
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:57.839
And that's where we're gonna see the difference because people who are rested and creative and reflective, they're much more likely to get the outcomes, probably producing less than what these slop factories are creating.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.720
And AI is just exacerbating all of it, right?
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:05.279
It's just making it so easy to produce crap.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:10.799
Now, how would you recommend for someone who you have multiple leaders that you report to?
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.759
So multiple output expectations.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:23.599
And then sometimes there's that squeaky wheel syndrome where this person is too noisy and they're impacting my output.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:28.400
So you need to address them immediately and get them off my plate and they're a superior.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.240
And we see this a lot in the workplace.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.640
Which, hey, can you just give Rebecca what she needs?
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.680
She won't leave me alone.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.279
And now you're having to put that on.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:44.000
So, how would you recommend people manage their output and their outcomes when they're in a multi-reporting structure or dual reporting structure?
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.000
And they have those kinds of situations.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:46.559
Yeah.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.559
So partly get out ahead of it, right?
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:59.440
So have the conversation with your manager about what the most important outcomes are, and then share with them here's what I see as the outputs I really need to be heads down on this week.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.119
If we're going to get there, would you agree?
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.680
And therefore, these are the activities I'm going to prioritize.
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:10.079
So get out ahead of it so that they know what you are working on and what value you are creating.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:20.079
Then if the situation arises where you get pulled into something, then the first approach is to say to your manager, like, somebody's trying to pull me in on this.
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:28.319
My sense is it really isn't as high a priority as what we had already agreed to because X, Y, and Z, Z, sorry.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.039
There, I just Canadian to myself there, X, Y, and Z.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:53.920
And then if they still say, I know, but she's really driving me crazy, you can be like, All right, you can use your one get out of jail free token, or you can you can not get yourself in trouble with your boss, but I wouldn't do it without making sure your boss knows that this is not a good choice, this is uh expedient choice, this is a right, yeah.
00:26:54.400 --> 00:27:02.559
But the best thing is to get out ahead so that when you're saying no to something, it's because everyone's clear you're saying yes to something more valuable.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:12.720
So in that sense, in the workplace sense, what current workplace norm would you eliminate if you could today?
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.440
So the norm that your inbox is open all the time.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.279
It is it's a hideously ineffective thing.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:32.480
It means we are in this sort of scanning panic mode all the time, which will shut off any sense of flow in the work that you're doing.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:34.400
I think that norm is terrible.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:48.720
I would love if the norm was look, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna work for a couple of hours heads down, if it's your best time, but I'm gonna work for a bit and then I'll lift my head up and check my emails and have some time assigned to it.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:28:07.920
The the other thing that goes with that is I think the positive, if we can get rid of having our inboxes open all the time, what I would like to have is a deal with your colleagues that if you're sending it by email, you are accepting that I'm only gonna see it at 11 or 4 or something like that.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:08.960
And that's okay.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:18.160
If you need me to see something in between my meetings or in between my chunks of work, text it to me or use another format.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:32.960
And if you need me to lift my head while I'm in a concentration session or in a meeting, then phone and I will put the do not disturb on so that if you phone me twice within two minutes, it will ring through, or that there's somebody who can always interrupt me.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:39.680
But we don't have any of that triage of matching the communication mode to the urgency.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:47.279
So we're following email as if the news of a fire in our store would come in through email.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.480
No, you don't need to monitor email for urgent crises, right?
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.160
If there's a crisis, how about somebody phones you?
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:07.279
That's I would get rid of open inboxes and I would replace it with an agreement around triaging of different levels of urgency goes to different communication vehicles.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:15.039
So then I know if I'm heads down and working for a couple of hours with everything turned off, I know that if I'm needed, people will get to me.
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:15.680
It's fine.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:21.599
I'm reachable by phone, but I'm not reachable by text, I'm not reachable by email.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.839
I'm really I'm heads down.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:29.279
So yeah, and then I that we know that the phone has to be out of your line of sight.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.359
So another reason that's good is that the phone will ring and you will hear it.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:42.799
But yeah, we need to reset for sure on our communication kind of protocols, and we need different tools for different sense of urgency.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:45.920
I love that though, because I'm so guilty.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:51.359
I have four or five different inboxes, and I typically have them open all day.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:30:01.119
Not that I respond to them all the time, but I do tend to respond relatively quickly and disrupt myself from focusing on what I'm focusing on all the time.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.839
Yeah, and you go or you need something in your email.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:11.680
So you go in to get it, and then you have other things, and then all of a sudden you then all of a then you're chasing that trail somewhere and you're like, where was I?
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:12.559
Who am I?
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.119
What do I do for a living?
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:22.319
Yeah, yeah, I do I do that a lot where I'll be working on something, I need something else, and then I'm like 20 minutes into it.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.359
Wait a second, I was not working on this, I don't need to focus on this.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:31.680
Let me go back to what I was doing to finish it so I can be done with this task and not have the other three started.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:38.400
One of the other hacks that I talk about is if you watch a cooking show, you know they have what they call mise en place, right?
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:45.599
So they have like all the cute little dishes with one teaspoon of tomato paste and a quarter of a cup of chopped onions.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.640
They have mise en place, they have everything ready.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:31:00.400
So when they start to cook, you don't go to we've all done it trying not to bother preparing in advance, and you put the garlic in, and then it's within 30 seconds, put the whole diced onion.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.240
You're like, I'm not gonna have time to dice the onion now, and the garlic's burned.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.480
And so we want to do mise en place when we're working as well.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:18.640
Because if we don't, then all of a sudden we have a whole bunch of you're like, Oh, I just need to Google something and open some tabs, and oh, I need to go into my email or into this Teams folder.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:24.559
Every single time we do any of those things, we are very likely to go snakes and ladders right down the line.
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.240
Grab what you need, put it all on your desktop, right?
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:34.799
Cook whatever you need to cook, and then put back the things off your counter, clean your counter, clean your desktop.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.920
Mise en place would make us much more efficient than what we actually are.
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:43.200
Oh, I just need this one report somebody sent me in my inbox.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:44.240
Gone.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.599
Plus, mise en place.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.119
When you're cooking, I love all the cute little, fun, little tiny dishes and dishes of different sizes and all of that.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:32:01.680
So I'm like, okay, how do I imagine my desktop as things new little dishes all ready for me to just whoop, I'll take this research and I'll take this paragraph from something else I'd already written and I have the photos ready to put in.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:03.920
And yeah, exactly.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.119
I'm gonna do that and time myself on some tasks this weekend.
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.359
See how you need to get one of these.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:11.759
So I don't know if you've ever seen these.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.759
This is a time timer, it's called.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.759
It's made for kids with ADHD.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.079
It's to help with their morning routines, and it's like totally analog.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:26.880
When I'm trying to do a Pomodoro block of like, I need to work on this for 45 minutes without stopping.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:28.319
This is my friend.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.759
I really love my time timer right beside you can see how far away it is from me, right here, all the time.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:40.319
So that and so analog, so deliciously analog, I don't have to touch my phone or anything else.
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.680
And uh, I'm not allowed to stop in my flow block until it beeps.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:51.440
It does have a hilarious little cheap beep on it.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.880
Yeah, highly recommend my time timer.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.079
I just I got it online.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.319
So going back to basics.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.480
Absolutely, yeah.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:10.799
So Leanne, when you think about highly ambitious people, what would a healthy, ambitious career look like through that thought load lens?
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:15.279
Yeah, you know when we talk about, oh, like I wish I had a faster metabolism.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:24.720
So we think about when we eat a big meal, we know that we need to stop eating so that we can digest and metabolize what we've eaten.
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.839
And that's what makes us healthy, right?
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:35.759
What we don't think about is we need to metabolize our thought load just as much as we need to metabolize our food.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:46.000
And so highly ambitious people should strive to have a high thought load metabolism so I can take in a lot.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.519
I can then pull out what are the nutrients from what I took in.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.279
I went to a conference, great.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:34:06.480
What I was just speaking in a keynoting at a conference last week, and I was saying to them, make some space, make some time to think about what are my big takeaways, what insights, what relationship did I make that I want to follow up on, right?
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.199
What are the nutrients I can extract?
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.360
That's one part of metabolism.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.119
The second part is what's waste that I can just flush?
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:22.239
What are all the things, competitor information or you know, stuff I heard people talking about that I like, I don't need that.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.039
That's not me.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.880
I'm that's I'm not responsible for that.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.480
Woof, flush, bye-bye.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.440
And then the third thing we do in metabolism is we process anything toxic.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.239
And so what stories am I telling myself?
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:47.679
Maybe it's perfectionism or imposter syndrome or conflict avoidance, or but what am I telling myself a story about a meeting I had early in the week that's bringing me down or getting in the way of a healthy relationship?
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:56.239
So a high, highly ambitious person should be thinking about how do I up my thought load metabolism?
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:04.400
And so, what a highly ambitious person can do to do that is figure out a what deserves to be in my thought load and what doesn't.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:11.519
So do being much more aggressive and assertive and ruthless about this is what I'm here to add value on.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:17.840
People who aren't very ambitious and they take on all the tasks in the team that don't get valued.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:18.480
Yes.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:23.199
They're like taking the notes and making the follow-up and like, yeah, nobody's giving you any credit for that.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:24.559
That's that's nothing, right?
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:34.320
So you focus your thought load on what really matters, what is worth my attention, what is worth being emotionally invested in, what is worth using my energy on.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.320
A highly ambitious person gets their thought load ruthlessly focused on the right stuff.
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.480
And the second thing is they stop eating sometimes.
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:53.360
So they recognize that they will need places to stop taking in new input so that they can actually metabolize and digest what's already in there.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:56.079
So highly ambitious people, they journal.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:04.639
They, you look at the Warren Buffett's of the world, big huge chunks of time in the calendar to think and write things and work on crafting the thoughts.
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:12.719
Lots of those highly successful people have some kind of fitness meditation, something routine where there's some time of nothing in their day.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:19.840
So that's how I want you to think about a highly ambitious person is somebody with a high thought load metabolism.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:30.800
They can take in a lot, pull out what's nutritious, flush, flush what's wasteful, and get through those toxic narratives much more quickly than the rest of folks.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.559
I love that.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.199
I have to take a personal note for that.
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.760
Oh, honey, we all have to take a personal note for that.
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:53.599
There's definitely one who would want to take on more and more, and I would grow and grow very quickly, but I didn't realize I was burning out until it was almost too late from a health perspective.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.679
You probably also weren't bringing the best insights to the table.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:03.360
So when you try and seize all the opportunities, you usually don't seize any of them, right?
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.639
Taking on more and more.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.719
There are short bursts in our careers where we can do that.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:20.719
But for the most part, you when you're doing that, when you never stop eating, you never pull out the nutrients, you never get the insight, you never get what's really unique.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.000
It's not just a burnout thing, it's also a value add.
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:34.000
How much value you can add usually depends on the chance to digest what's in there, rest, reflect, make connections between things.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:35.519
Yeah.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:42.159
I think highly ambitious, speedy people, you can find the thing that works for you and do it regularly.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:56.880
And I just was telling Rebecca before you joined us today that I was like, oh, I had to really look at my calendar going into fourth quarter and say, I've got to get back to some of the things I was doing that were just helping me metabolize better.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:57.679
Recommit.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:58.719
Yeah, recommit.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:06.480
So it's funny because fast, busy people, they'll often tell me a story that they're like, yeah, but Leanne, I get a lot of shit done.
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:07.519
I'm like, do you?
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:09.519
Or do you just do a lot of shit?
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:09.920
Oh.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.880
And so it's that activity versus output.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:18.079
And lots of speedy people like pride themselves in feeling speedy.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.559
And when I look, I'm like, no, they're not actually getting that much done.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.400
And even if they're getting stuff done, is it the stuff that's moving the needle?
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.760
So yeah, what we want is for you to get to the destination fast.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:33.119
Yes.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:39.039
But going fast does not always get you to the destination fast, right?
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.320
So it's asking yourself those hard questions.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.880
Am I getting shit done or am I just doing a lot of shit?
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.960
When Katie and I used to work together, she'd always tell me that I'd have to slow, I'd have to slow down to be able to go fast.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.119
And it's really, really good advice.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.519
Yeah.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.400
I do move very quickly and then I would make mistakes.
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:15.760
And so I've learned to slow down, not just immediately respond to emails or submit some kind of uh numbers or something without actually slowing down, really looking at them and then sending them because yeah, that's when the mistakes would always happen.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:16.639
Yeah.
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:23.199
So the thing that I'm I talk a lot about now is like what, so what, now what?
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.800
And a lot of our speedy people go from what to now what.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:29.760
And they miss the insight in the middle.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:38.880
So what we want is to move efficiently from what did I just learn or what happened or what's the data or whatever else to so what?
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:40.559
What do I need to take from this?
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:41.519
What matters here?
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:42.880
What doesn't matter here?
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:43.920
What's this about?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.679
What would make a difference?
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:51.119
To have the insight before going to okay, now I'm going to do this.
00:39:51.599 --> 00:40:00.400
And so that putting the so what back in our world, especially if you're a speedy person, is one of the most important things.
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.039
And so just using that as your mantra, okay, what?
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:04.559
So what now what?
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:11.280
And just catching yourself when you try and go from what to now what, because that's that is definitely the inclination.
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.800
I gotta I gotta go, I gotta act, I gotta move.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:21.920
And if I hear one more executive give me the line about my people need a greater sense of urgency, I'm like, oh my god.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:23.840
Everybody says that's so ridiculous.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:24.960
It's so painful.
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:40.320
I'm like, no, what they need is to know which one thing right now they need a sense of urgency about because what you're doing is you're creating a sense of urgency for 50 things, and that's what's creating this kind of whack-a-mole crazy culture that we've got.
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:50.239
So it's not that the overall sense of urgency isn't there, it's they have just learned helplessness of trying to feel urgent about 50 things at once.
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:57.039
Tell them the one thing where you need to see them act with urgency and insight, and now we're talking.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:58.320
Yeah, I love that.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:03.280
I'm gonna hurt the next person who tells me that we need a greater sense of urgency.
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:04.800
Can't stand it.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.199
If you came, remember when you were saying earlier, go talk to your people, right?
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:10.559
Ask them what's going on.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:18.719
I feel like sometimes executives, if you spent more time watching what your people are doing every day or how much they have to respond to, you wouldn't say that to them.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:34.320
And it just goes back to when talking to your people, if you're meeting with them for 101s once a week or every other week, aren't you talking to them about what they're working on, what's going on, what's halted because they don't have access to certain things.
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:35.760
We don't have those conversations.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.760
What are we talking about in those 101s then?
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.679
So what I've seen lately is people bring in their really long to-do list.
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:42.000
Yeah.
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.360
And it's really just an operations update.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:42:00.800
So it's nothing about the person's thought load, about how well positioned they are, what they need to focus on, their most important outcomes, what they're emotionally processing and where they need help with that, what's the right cadence to renew their energy.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.239
No, those are the things we need to be talking about in our one-on-ones.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:13.519
First of all, this I did a LinkedIn post recently because a couple of big corp execs, Jensen Wang and among them, came out saying, I don't have one-on-ones.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:21.039
If my people there, my people are grown-ups, if they need something, they can come to me and like, oh my God, it's just totally missing the whole point.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:27.039
So there is more of this kind of going around at the moment that like grown-ups don't need one-on-ones.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:28.320
I'm like, wrong.
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:30.320
So some people aren't having them.
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:35.679
The people who are having them, they're just operations, updates, check off the box.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:41.199
It's not actually about setting somebody up to perform effectively.
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:41.840
Yeah.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.880
As a leader, your role is to set your team up for success.
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.480
And if you're not setting them up for success, you're setting them up for failure.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.960
And so by not having those conversations, you're totally missing an opportunity.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:54.639
Agree 100%.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:55.280
Yeah.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:56.400
Wow.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:03.199
Well, Ian, that sort of leads us into your thought load audit and the overwhelm assessment that you have.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:11.360
If you were to guide our listeners as a starting point, if they're listening and they're going, oh my goodness, my thought load is so high.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:11.679
Yeah.
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:20.320
How do they figure out whether it's attention, emotion, or energy where they should intervene first and what would be their next steps?
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:33.199
Yeah, it's not a feed quiz and it's not going to tell you which princess you are, but we do have this awesome little assessment to help you understand how high your thought load is and whether it's coming more from your attention, your emotions, or your energy.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.400
So that's really fun.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:42.800
And when you do that, then we have a whole bunch of free resources to help you start to get a handle on that one that's your highest before you move on to the others.
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.719
So that's the thought load audit.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:53.280
Then, because we each show our overwhelm in different ways, there's a fun overwhelm assessment that helps you understand.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:55.360
Do you tend to be more of a whirlwind?
00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:05.199
That's you guys when you're talking about all that action for the sake of action, or are Are you a stickler, which is when you get really overwhelmed, you become the person who goes back to the real book?
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:05.840
Rulebook.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.079
As per my email of April 27th, um, you go back to something.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:11.360
We all know one of those, right?
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.519
Or you're like me, you're a brooder.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.760
And when you get overwhelmed, you turn into eeure, you're like, anybody seen my tail.
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:27.920
Or you're a rogue, which is when you get overwhelmed by the rules and the bureaucracy, you just ignore the rules and find your own way.
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:45.280
And so that assessment's really helpful because it'll help you figure out not only what your overwhelm looks like and help you talk with your colleagues and your friends about different ways overwhelm shows up, but it also leads you to the tools for how to manage your own particular kind of overwhelm.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.400
So those are great fun, they're free for everybody to use.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:54.960
And then many of the tools to fix whatever you learn are also there and available for everybody.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:59.760
As we're rounding out the episode, can you also tell us about Thought World?
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:00.320
Yeah.
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.159
Oh, Thought World's so fun.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:12.239
So when I was thinking about these readers, these folks who are just drowning because their thought load is so heavy.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.559
You can imagine that when I first had the thought of, you know what they need?
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:17.599
A book.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:19.920
I did laugh at myself, right?
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:28.400
Because, like, said no one ever when they're feeling overwhelmed is what I need is a nonfiction book, maybe really thick and hardcover, right?
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:34.639
So I set this expectation for myself and my editor and my designer.
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:40.400
I said, What if we made the book just like throwing them a life ring?
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.719
And the book is just enough to make you feel like I feel seen.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:48.239
I feel like I have just a few things to get my head above water.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:53.679
And then what if all the stuff to really go further with it was once they got on shore?
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.960
So I wrote a book designed to be buoyant.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.599
No section is more than four pages.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:02.719
Everything is built to be very readable.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.679
It's a soft cover so that it's so that it's not heavy to throw in your bag.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:15.840
It's and it's there's no page layout that doesn't have a visual breakup so that it doesn't feel daunting to read.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:20.559
So we did all of that, but that meant, oh, now we need to actually create the world on land.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:25.840
Where and so thought world is the world on land, if you want to put it into practice.
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.719
And it's it is now so full.
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:35.760
So there are 60 different resources in each of the categories of attention, emotions, and energy.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:47.519
And then the fun thing we've just launched is if reading a book still, even though it's the world's most buoyant book, if reading a book feels like too much, we're just launching the Thought Load curriculum.
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:57.840
And every section of the book, so the 24 little pieces of the book are each in a four-minute video with a downloadable tool to just do it that way.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:03.920
And so over the next six months, you can do one idea a week, four-minute video and a worksheet.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.480
And so all of that is all on Thought World.
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.159
And Thought World is also a community.
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:15.039
So you can chat with other folks going through the same thing, chat with me as we all help each other navigate this.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.280
So I'm really proud of Thought World.
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:31.039
It's a whole place for those of us who are tired of work not working, tired of going home from work with no gas in the tank, tired of not feeling that sense on a Friday afternoon that wow, I did something really meaningful this week.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.880
So we all have one another to support each other and the tools to change that for the better.
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:37.840
We love that.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.000
I think Rebecca already started it and then she got on me today to join.
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.679
Yeah, please come join.
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:45.840
That was last week, right?
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:46.719
That was last week.
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:47.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:47.840
Yeah.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.000
And then I also am just gonna confirm the book is a very it is a quick read.
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.320
It's very easy to read, and it does, it gives you all the tools within the book too.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:58.639
But I'm excited about Thunderbone as well.
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:09.280
So yeah, if you can watch three TikToks, you can watch a whole chapter in four minutes and then get the tool right there to download to to put it into action.
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:16.960
So it's like I always think about when you're accountants, if you could put away one Starbucks latte a week, you would have savings for I feel like that.
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:17.840
Three TikToks.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:19.760
Just three TikToks a week.
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.800
You two can do it.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:24.320
You too can do it.
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:30.320
So, Liam, where is the best place for our listeners to follow you, connect with you?
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:38.960
Thoughtload.com will get you to a spot that has the link to the quizzes, to Thought World.
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:42.320
If you can get to Thoughtload.com, you can get the goodness.
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:48.559
And then if you can cope with the I's and the E's and whatever, you can find me on LinkedIn and connect with me there.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:50.639
Liam, thank you so much.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.880
This has been such an invaluable conversation.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.159
There's so many takeaways from our listeners and us too.
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.760
We really appreciate you, and we will see you next time.
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:00.559
Wonderful.
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.199
Thanks so much.
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:02.000
Thanks, Rebecca.
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:02.639
Thanks, Tim.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.320
Follow us on all your socials, NFNA Podcast.
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:07.679
Until next time.
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:06.400
No filter, no filter, no apologies.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:10.960
Strong women, real talk, no sailors.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.480
We rise together, we say it loud.
00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:19.039
We've spent September talking about some very different things.
00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:29.120
Burnout, ambition, perimenopause at work, attention, interruption, and what it takes to keep performing when life and work are demanding more of us.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:34.000
Somewhere along the way, we realized we kept bumping into a question we hadn't really answered.
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.240
What is consuming our capacity that doesn't show up on our actual workload?
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:39.920
And that's why today's guest is here.
00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:40.320
Dr.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:51.119
Leanne Davey, known as the teamwork doctor, is a New York Times bestselling author, keynote speaker, and executive advisor who has spent three decades helping people accomplish amazing things together.
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:59.600
Her latest book, Thought Load, Manage the Manus, and Free Your Team to Do Great Work, tackles the mental and emotional overload affecting today's teams.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:06.560
We met Leanne when she spoke at the ATV South Florida Champions of Learning event in April, and her work stayed with us.
00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.200
Leanne, welcome to No Filter, No Apologies.
00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:11.120
Oh, thank you so much.
00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:13.040
I'm so excited to see you again, Rebecca.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.480
And nice to meet you, Katie.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:15.760
Nice to meet you.
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.200
Thank you for being here with us.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.840
Yes, we're very happy you are here.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.400
And so that something interesting happened after we saw you speak.
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:29.920
We recorded this stretch of episodes without deliberately connecting them to your work.
00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:32.079
We want to give you the topics.
00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:35.280
And before we tell you what we think connects them, hear what you're doing.
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:36.319
It's like a quiz show.
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:37.120
I like it.
00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:50.560
So imposter syndrome, high functioning burnout, working harder without necessarily getting ahead, perimetopause at work, constant interruption, and fractured attention.
00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:55.359
So when you hear those five conversations together, what do you see?
00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:02.000
I see, hear, smell, feel, thought load, baby.
00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:03.120
Oh wow.
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:07.760
It's like a I'm a Gen Xer.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.159
I think of it, it's like a scratch and sniff sticker.
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.680
I'm like, if we had a scratch and sniff sticker for thought load.
00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:15.199
Yep, I know what that is.
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:16.080
All of those.
00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:16.960
Wow.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:18.319
Oh, all of those.
00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:19.199
Yes.
00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:21.759
What would you say connect them?
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:22.639
Yeah.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:23.439
Yeah.
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:35.120
I think it's just it's this everything coming at us from the outside, mashing into everything going on inside us, right?
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.560
So there's just there's tumult in both, right?
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:48.159
These massive waves crashing against us when we already are trying to cope with so much going on in our internal narratives.
00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.680
So I think that connects all of these things, right?
00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.039
So it's it's a lot these days.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.759
I'm just getting ready to go out to dinner.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.240
And I was just thinking about meeting up with this friend.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:06.639
And like all I could think of was like, I just I can't wait to sit down and have a lovely dinner and just talk about how it's a lot.
00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:10.800
Yeah, it's so true.
00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:19.919
I was just sharing with someone how all of a sudden I'll be doing one task, and then you see something, and you're like, oh, I have to do that, and you go do that.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:27.840
And before you know it, you have six started things and none of them are finished, and you haven't gotten to the work that you meant to do a little bit later.
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:33.680
And I was just sharing with a friend earlier this morning, and I said, the way that I cope with that now is just my lists.
00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.759
I live by lists and have a giant one here with things crossed off, can't see it.
00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:43.520
But the way that I get it out of my brain is to write it down on my list to say, okay, I need to stay focused.
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:53.439
I need to focus on what's true, but I need to get it out of my brain, otherwise, I'm gonna be overwhelmed by the thought load and not necessarily the workload.
00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:57.680
And so I'll put it on my list to get to another day and I feel like okay, I've done something with it.
00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:59.759
So it's not consuming me.
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:09.439
Yeah, that's a that's the getting it out of your brain and putting it on a piece of paper or in a digital file or whatever, that's excellent.
00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:11.039
That's brilliant.
00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:16.879
The only course correction we're gonna make, and we can talk more about this, but you can't have one list.
00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:25.040
When you have one list, I talk about to-do lists as being evil because they're long, right?
00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:34.079
And then you catch it out of your peripheral vision and just go like, like that, that's that's a six-week list, and it I made it for today, right?
00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:41.439
And and the other thing is when our thought load is high, we're not very good at picking the right thing off the list to do.
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:47.600
So, so you're onto something really great with getting it out of your head and putting it somewhere safe.
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:49.519
That's that works, and that's very true.
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.120
You can take it out of your thought load.
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:58.000
We'll just give you a few tips about a better place to put it than just one long to-do list.
00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.160
I think a lot of people operate on lists.
00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:04.079
I joke, I learned it from my mom who used to write it on the back of envelopes and mail.
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.959
Speaking of Gen X, that was something parents did.
00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.199
So I used to have one list.
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.399
It was like my home list book and my work list book.
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:14.800
Then managing the list became too much.
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.920
So I have one list book, but then I'll break it by day.
00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.480
So then I'm only looking at what I have to do that day and I don't add anything to the day that I'm already in.
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.399
I'll try and add it to later on.
00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:31.040
So, what would your recommendation be to our listeners out there who maybe one have never started a list?
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.240
I think you touched on that.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.399
Or two, what are the best practices if you're operating with lists like that?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.279
Yeah.
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:56.959
So one of the problems is that list will have everything on it from like the most essential, important part of your job that's the value you're creating in your role, right down to we haven't yet done the compliance training on safe use of box cutters, right?
00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.040
All those things end up on the same list.
00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:11.040
So the problem is when our thought load is high, the thing we pull off of that list is often the thing attached to the scariest person or the thing that just popped up in our inbox.
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.240
And that's not the best way to prioritize a list.
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.680
So I talk about having three lists instead of one.
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:27.439
So the first list is what are the things that are absolutely essential to the outcome I'm here to create?
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:35.839
And I'm okay with your home list merging with your work list, but it's like the most important outcomes for me.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:46.879
What are the number one, number two, and number three things I want to do today to advan or this week even to advance on my quest, my most important things.
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:56.079
That list should be unadulterated, not full of compliance training or anything else, or take the dry cleaning or any of those things.
00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:04.800
The second list is that when we work in an organization, we have lots to contribute to other people's most important outcomes.
00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:07.920
And probably you're getting requests from all over.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:27.439
I need you to come to this meeting, I need you to help write this proposal, I need you to so second list, this is a hard one because we have to really raise our game is what are the most unique to us things we need to contribute to support our colleagues in achieving their outcomes?
00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.199
And again, number one, number two, and number three.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:35.839
And you probably had number four, number five, number six, number seven, number twelve.
00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:47.759
And it's really important to say which of those are the most important and urgent and unique to me, and not to just let everything on that list take over your list.
00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:48.800
So that's the second list.
00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.120
And then the third list, I call them the side quests.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:08:02.240
That's where if you got to do compliance training or you're you're in a publicly traded company and the SEC requires that you fill in some form, or there's lots of side quests we have to do to keep the lights on.
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.680
But again, put those in order and work through them.
00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:20.160
So when we have three lists, then we can say in the most precious time in our week, I'm gonna fill that precious, high energy creative time with my list.
00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:28.000
Then I'm gonna look at the second tier of my time and I'm gonna fill it with those ways I collaborate and connect with people.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:37.840
And then that third list, I'm putting that in the little spots in between meetings, Thursday at 4:30, when my attention span is like that of a goldfish.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:46.399
And if we do that, then we spend our best energy and our best attention on the things that matter most.
00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:54.159
When we just have one list and you start your day and you're drinking your coffee, you're like, oh, I'm gonna do a bunch of those side quests right now.
00:08:54.639 --> 00:09:00.559
We waste our best time on the least value-added work.
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:13.919
So that's the difference in having three lists, is so that we can put those activities in the spots where they belong instead of what most of us do, which is I say, What are you doing in your prime time?
00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:19.200
I'm responding to Slack messages and I'm sitting in meetings and I'm like, where are you doing your most important stuff?
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.039
Evenings and weekends usually.
00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:22.879
So yeah.
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:30.559
So we need to have three lists, not one, so that we can put our best energy and attention on the stuff that matters most.
00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:35.360
And I would say that's that is definitely at work, but that's also at home.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:37.840
What is it that really matters at home?
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.919
And what are you gonna do in the time when you're most present, right?
00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:43.919
Versus yeah.
00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:45.840
So really important to think that way.
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:46.960
I love that.
00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:57.679
Rebecca and I just talked about in a previous episode how you'll go through a workday, and because you might have your plan and you have your calendar of meetings, and then the team's message comes through.
00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:59.200
Hey, do you have a second?
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:00.720
And then the email pops up.
00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:02.480
Can you just review this really quickly?
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:09.360
And before you know it, it's lunchtime and you haven't touched anything, not only your daily plan, but your weekly plan.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.720
So, how would you recommend our listeners manage that?
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:14.799
Yeah, book it.
00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:24.320
So you could say, I keep from 11 to 12 o'clock each day and four to five o'clock for requests from colleagues, tidying things up.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.279
I find by 11, I'm kind of like, right?
00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:29.919
I'm pretty good until uh because I'm a morning person.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.159
So if I'm starting at 7:30, by 11, it's not so great.
00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:42.320
So, okay, before I take lunch, I'm gonna make sure if there's anything my colleagues need, if there's anything my customers need, if there's anything urgent in my email, I've created a spot.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.480
So you just literally respond.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.720
You first of all, I would actually train my colleagues to know that's where I have the spot.
00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.720
So if you want to slide something into my 11 o'clock spot, let me know.
00:10:55.039 --> 00:11:04.879
But if you haven't trained them, then you're just literally responding with, I'm heads down at the moment, and be happy to take a peek at that before I take a lunch break.
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:06.240
I love that.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.080
I am not a morning person, I can't share that with you.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.840
No, but then again, what's going in your most precious time?
00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:21.039
If at three o'clock you're just starting to cook with gas, are you sitting in a bunch of operations meetings that are useless?
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:28.080
And how many of those slots in a week are full of stuff that is not what needs your full brain power?
00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:34.320
It whatever your particular tradidian rhythms are, make it work for you.
00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.639
But just ask yourself in my most precious time in the week, what's in there?
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:40.559
What's squatting on that land?
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.600
And usually the nothing good.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:58.639
I think we're all trained to the other thing I talk about in Thought Load is I talk about how managers who reward responsiveness are perpetuating this problem.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:03.840
So rewarding responsiveness is just rewarding your team for being distracted.
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:12.159
Because the only reason they could write back to you right away is that they had their email open or their Slack or their Teams or whatever, and they were watching.
00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:16.639
And that means they were not all in on the work that you're actually paying them to do.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.159
So, yes, we all have that problem of the side quests all of a sudden like taking over.
00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:23.200
Yes.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.360
Gotta fix it.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:33.039
Liam, what are the actual pieces that go into Thought Load?
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.159
Yeah, great question.
00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:39.519
So Thought Load itself, I think of as this invisible tax on our performance.
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:50.159
And the problem is if your manager's looking at you and you're looking exhausted and they're looking at what work you've produced, they're probably like, and you're like, but I'm exhausted.
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.000
That's remember, it's because Thought Load is an invisible tax.
00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.559
They can't see all that's weighing on you.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.200
So think about it as an equation, two things on top and one on the bottom.
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:17.039
So the two things on the top is all of the cognitive demands, the things you have to pay attention to, the the complexity of what you're dealing with, the decision fatigue, like it's all oof that you have to think and crunch and cope with.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.159
That's one part.
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:21.120
The second part is the emotional burdens.
00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:28.799
And that's just all the things that all day long are have causing you to have that reaction of, is he out to get me?
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:29.759
Am I in trouble?
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:38.799
The word trouble, it still amazes me how many people in their 40s and 50s making over$100,000 will still use the language of, I'm gonna get in trouble.
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:39.200
Yeah.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:47.840
Yeah, we feel like we're in trouble or or just feeling anxious or feeling down or overwhelmed.
00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.440
So there's the emotional burdens.
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.039
That's the load, the cognitive demands and the emotional burdens.
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.679
Oh, and you can feel the weight, even when I say that.
00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:59.919
But the denominator of the equation is your energy reserves.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:10.559
So if you think about a day when you slept really well, maybe you had a great weekend, you had protein for breakfast, and you're like, I got this, I can carry that load.
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:23.519
And other days where you haven't done all those things, you're still riding off the banana nut muffin from seven o'clock this morning, and the even the smallest thing feels just, oh, I can't.
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:24.559
It's too much.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:32.559
So that's why that denominator, like any good denominator, if your energy reserves get smaller, the load gets heavier.
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.960
And as your energy gets bolstered and whatever, the the load feels lighter.
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:42.480
So those are the three pieces: your cognitive demands, your emotional burdens, and your energy reserves.
00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.039
That's what makes up your thought load.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.960
I get that.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:55.919
Especially I was telling Sadie earlier, I just I had a very late night coming in at a late flight.
00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:01.440
And so trying to get my energy going at all today was a struggle, but I did.
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:03.120
Sound good.
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:08.960
Yeah, that's those are the days when you really have to plug into something that is intrinsically motivating, right?
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:18.720
You're like, oh, I'm doing the pod, I love these conversations, and then all of a sudden, humans are incredible in our ability to find energy when we need it.
00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:23.360
But I think right now the problem is we're all trying to sprint a marathon.
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:34.159
And we think our bodies should be that level of responsive with energy when we never rest, we never recuperate, we never have time to reflect.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:40.639
Like, why do we think that our bodies should every single time be willing to, like, here we go, right?
00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.360
It's yes, it's nuts, it's nuts.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:51.200
My sister and I always talk about how we associate rest with laziness, not for anyone else, but for ourselves.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:57.519
Our dad was a marine, our mom was a teacher, and there was always this go and move on to the next thing.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:05.120
And as adults now and as parents, we recognize that's a challenge, but we haven't been able to turn it off ourselves.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:20.080
We've turned it off for the people around us, but not for ourselves to say it is impossible for our bodies to keep up, for our brains to keep up, and you've got to be organized about it and you have to prioritize these things, but it's very difficult to do.
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:33.919
Yeah, I think the Marines is a great example because they have thousands of scientists figuring out what are the routines that ensure that our forces have the energy they need when they need it, right?
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:39.120
We have a false storyline in our heads that people like that don't rest.
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:40.399
Of course they do.
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:53.519
It's why there's leave, and it's why, and it's why in the armed forces recently on the aircraft carrier, they're saying, like, no, we know how often you need shore leave, how often you need all that to stay at peak performance.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:58.320
I'm not sure why from the outside we tell ourselves these narratives that aren't true, right?
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:09.119
There may be this perception that even in war, they're still trying to figure out who rotates to the front line and who like all those things so that you can be at peak performance.
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.680
So Olympic athletes are the other ones.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:17.359
So Olympic athletes are obsessed with rest, obsessed, right?
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:24.000
And so I'm not sure uh why we make up this fiction that high performers don't rest.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.759
It's crap, it's just fiction, it's false.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:34.480
And but what they do is they don't do wasteful rest, they do deliberate rest, right?
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.279
They do things that renew them.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:44.640
And so, yeah, like flopping on the couch and watching TikTok, I'm willing to be like, okay, I'm gonna feel guilty about that.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:53.119
But when I sit down on the couch and I read fiction, I'm doing it very intentionally for the value I get in raising my empathy.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:18:00.799
When I go for a walk in nature, I'm doing it very deliberately and intentionally because it lowers my blood pressure and it does a lot of other good things.
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.079
So yeah, I think we need a different story.
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:11.279
And I think if you actually talk to any of these people, I've had the good fortune in my life to meet a bunch of astronauts, which is very cool.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:18.400
And and yeah, this whole heroic view we have of them, they disabuse you of that very, very quickly.
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.000
They're like, oh no, we have to do this and this to make sure that our bodies can.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:31.039
So I'm not sure why we can't figure out that actually peak performance requires renewable energy.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.920
I feel like you see it with pilots and flight attendants and even truck drivers, right?
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.079
Mandated to have a certain amount of time off so that their bodies can fully rest.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:49.839
You do not want to be on the interstate beside, and we've all been on the interstate beside a trucker who is pushing it or having fake logs or whatever, right?
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.880
It is deadly, incredibly unsafe.
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:53.440
Yeah.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:00.319
And we've all been beside somebody where the truck is swerving into your lane and you're like, if this thing hits me, we're all dead.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.440
You're probably okay.
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:09.359
So we have regulation in places where where we put somebody else's life on the line, like a pilot or things like that.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:20.799
But like if you don't think that your performance is affecting your family, your kids, your co-workers, your customers when you're in that state, again, you're just making up fiction.
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:31.359
What would you say to organizational leaders who have sales floors, for example, where it is that hustle culture, everything seems urgent.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:43.359
How would you advise organizational leaders to maybe change their culture a little bit and consider thought load and take on the responsibility of that focus for their employees or associates?
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.839
I think engage with the associates.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.680
Talk to them what works.
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:50.160
I know, shocking advice, right?
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.000
Talk to them about what works.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:53.599
Where does the energy lag?
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:55.279
What would make a difference?
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.759
Sometimes it's something as simple as could we put on different music in the back room?
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:05.680
So like I can get, or whatever, could we cover the floor differently at these certain times?
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:10.160
The one I think about all the time is my obstetrician when I had my kids.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:22.720
And they had moved away from the model of everybody gets to have their obstetrician do all of their care and deliver their baby, because she said if I do that, then I'm up in the night all the time.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:24.960
I have no life, I have no predictability.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.759
And then if somebody goes into labor and you were supposed to have a checkup, I'm not going to be there for your checkup.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:36.240
So they had whatever 20 OBGYNs work together in a pool and they took turns.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:43.119
And so every appointment I went to, she saw me within five minutes of the appointment time with full care.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.400
She was rested.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:50.960
And then there would be a couple of weeks where or whatever, like whatever her schedule was, she would be delivering at that time.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.480
And so, you know what?
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.880
I my combined labor for two children was approximately two and a half hours.
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.759
Like, I don't care who was on the other end of the stirrups.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:01.920
I'm like, I'm not really paying attention anyway.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:13.279
So, like it because for 50 years since we'd really medicalized birth, we were in this paradigm that it had to be like the doctor for all of your checkups is the doctor that delivers your baby.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.319
I'm like, why?
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.400
So we just so now this obstetrician has a a good life.
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.960
We're not losing people from the profession because it's an untenable life.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.960
She has a good life with predictability.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:34.640
She can stay on top of modern research, she all those things because this model makes her thought load manageable.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:42.240
It's really interesting you say that specifically with the obstetrics, because I had preeclampsia that turned into an eclamtic seizure.
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:48.160
But because I had low blood pressure my whole life, it went undiagnosed for a long time.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.559
Yeah.
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:56.799
And my doctor had his time off, and a different doctor saw me from a non-stress test and diagnosed me with it and induced me with my son.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.799
Now I still had an eclamtic seizure, but when my doctor came, Came to see me.
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.000
He did make it to deliver my son, which I was grateful for.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.599
But he told me, he's like, I don't know if I would have caught that.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:12.480
And I'm really glad that this other doctor was here and it was on his time.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.599
He was fresh on his shift to something so small.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.279
So it's such a great point.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.559
Yeah, we really get locked in these paradigms that aren't working for us.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:28.079
And we need to just be able to stop and kind of think about it in the thought load framework.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.720
What are the cognitive demands of this job?
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.279
How do we help manage the cognitive demands?
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.839
Where are the big emotional burdens coming in?
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:37.200
And what do we do with it?
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:39.279
How do we renew energy?
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.440
And there's micro resilience in your day, then there's over the midterm.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:51.599
We can actually manage all of this stuff so much more effectively, but we're into this mode of running on a hamster wheel.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.599
And I really don't get it.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.160
I don't either.
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:57.119
Not working.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.839
As I keep saying, work ain't working, people.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.960
Work ain't working.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:07.359
And it's wild to see because people think that the the way that you're productive at work is the responsiveness.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:16.319
Or if you're just doing all of the things but not producing anything, but you're always busy, they seem to think that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing at what?
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.440
But that's so Rebecca.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.440
You bring up a really, really important point, right?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:26.000
And this is one of the first points in the book is we have got to chase outcomes, not outputs.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:26.559
Yes.
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:32.880
And so if you think about it, you can pay attention to activity, how busy am I, how much am I doing?
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.960
You can pay attention to output, how much am I producing?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.519
And you can pay attention to outcome.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:43.039
Did I change the world in the way I was hoping to change the world?
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:50.319
If you just pay attention to activity, like getting in the morning and responding to your emails, all you're gonna be is busy and burned out.
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:56.480
It's shift toward does that activity translate into an output?
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:02.880
You're gonna become productive, but we are in a productivity trap right now.
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.279
People are producing so much stuff.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:21.920
If you go on LinkedIn and look at what content marketers are producing these days, you're like, ah the question needs to shift to not how much output have we created, but did it move the needle on any of the outcomes that matter?
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.880
So only when we make that shift do we go from being productive to being effective.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.319
And the problem is on the hamster wheel, we can produce a lot, right?
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.640
But it's a lot of stuff that's not moving the needle.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:42.000
So, how do we start focusing on outcomes instead of outputs?
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:57.839
And that's where we're gonna see the difference because people who are rested and creative and reflective, they're much more likely to get the outcomes, probably producing less than what these slop factories are creating.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.720
And AI is just exacerbating all of it, right?
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:05.279
It's just making it so easy to produce crap.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:10.799
Now, how would you recommend for someone who you have multiple leaders that you report to?
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:13.759
So multiple output expectations.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:23.599
And then sometimes there's that squeaky wheel syndrome where this person is too noisy and they're impacting my output.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:28.400
So you need to address them immediately and get them off my plate and they're a superior.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.240
And we see this a lot in the workplace.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.640
Which, hey, can you just give Rebecca what she needs?
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.680
She won't leave me alone.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.279
And now you're having to put that on.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:44.000
So, how would you recommend people manage their output and their outcomes when they're in a multi-reporting structure or dual reporting structure?
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.000
And they have those kinds of situations.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:46.559
Yeah.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.559
So partly get out ahead of it, right?
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:59.440
So have the conversation with your manager about what the most important outcomes are, and then share with them here's what I see as the outputs I really need to be heads down on this week.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.119
If we're going to get there, would you agree?
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.680
And therefore, these are the activities I'm going to prioritize.
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:10.079
So get out ahead of it so that they know what you are working on and what value you are creating.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:20.079
Then if the situation arises where you get pulled into something, then the first approach is to say to your manager, like, somebody's trying to pull me in on this.
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:28.319
My sense is it really isn't as high a priority as what we had already agreed to because X, Y, and Z, Z, sorry.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.039
There, I just Canadian to myself there, X, Y, and Z.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:53.920
And then if they still say, I know, but she's really driving me crazy, you can be like, All right, you can use your one get out of jail free token, or you can you can not get yourself in trouble with your boss, but I wouldn't do it without making sure your boss knows that this is not a good choice, this is uh expedient choice, this is a right, yeah.
00:26:54.400 --> 00:27:02.559
But the best thing is to get out ahead so that when you're saying no to something, it's because everyone's clear you're saying yes to something more valuable.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:12.720
So in that sense, in the workplace sense, what current workplace norm would you eliminate if you could today?
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.440
So the norm that your inbox is open all the time.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.279
It is it's a hideously ineffective thing.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:32.480
It means we are in this sort of scanning panic mode all the time, which will shut off any sense of flow in the work that you're doing.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:34.400
I think that norm is terrible.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:48.720
I would love if the norm was look, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna work for a couple of hours heads down, if it's your best time, but I'm gonna work for a bit and then I'll lift my head up and check my emails and have some time assigned to it.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:28:07.920
The the other thing that goes with that is I think the positive, if we can get rid of having our inboxes open all the time, what I would like to have is a deal with your colleagues that if you're sending it by email, you are accepting that I'm only gonna see it at 11 or 4 or something like that.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:08.960
And that's okay.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:18.160
If you need me to see something in between my meetings or in between my chunks of work, text it to me or use another format.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:32.960
And if you need me to lift my head while I'm in a concentration session or in a meeting, then phone and I will put the do not disturb on so that if you phone me twice within two minutes, it will ring through, or that there's somebody who can always interrupt me.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:39.680
But we don't have any of that triage of matching the communication mode to the urgency.
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:47.279
So we're following email as if the news of a fire in our store would come in through email.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.480
No, you don't need to monitor email for urgent crises, right?
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.160
If there's a crisis, how about somebody phones you?
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:07.279
That's I would get rid of open inboxes and I would replace it with an agreement around triaging of different levels of urgency goes to different communication vehicles.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:15.039
So then I know if I'm heads down and working for a couple of hours with everything turned off, I know that if I'm needed, people will get to me.
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:15.680
It's fine.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:21.599
I'm reachable by phone, but I'm not reachable by text, I'm not reachable by email.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.839
I'm really I'm heads down.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:29.279
So yeah, and then I that we know that the phone has to be out of your line of sight.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.359
So another reason that's good is that the phone will ring and you will hear it.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:42.799
But yeah, we need to reset for sure on our communication kind of protocols, and we need different tools for different sense of urgency.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:45.920
I love that though, because I'm so guilty.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:51.359
I have four or five different inboxes, and I typically have them open all day.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:30:01.119
Not that I respond to them all the time, but I do tend to respond relatively quickly and disrupt myself from focusing on what I'm focusing on all the time.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:03.839
Yeah, and you go or you need something in your email.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:11.680
So you go in to get it, and then you have other things, and then all of a sudden you then all of a then you're chasing that trail somewhere and you're like, where was I?
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:12.559
Who am I?
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.119
What do I do for a living?
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:22.319
Yeah, yeah, I do I do that a lot where I'll be working on something, I need something else, and then I'm like 20 minutes into it.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.359
Wait a second, I was not working on this, I don't need to focus on this.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:31.680
Let me go back to what I was doing to finish it so I can be done with this task and not have the other three started.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:38.400
One of the other hacks that I talk about is if you watch a cooking show, you know they have what they call mise en place, right?
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:45.599
So they have like all the cute little dishes with one teaspoon of tomato paste and a quarter of a cup of chopped onions.
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.640
They have mise en place, they have everything ready.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:31:00.400
So when they start to cook, you don't go to we've all done it trying not to bother preparing in advance, and you put the garlic in, and then it's within 30 seconds, put the whole diced onion.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.240
You're like, I'm not gonna have time to dice the onion now, and the garlic's burned.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.480
And so we want to do mise en place when we're working as well.
00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:18.640
Because if we don't, then all of a sudden we have a whole bunch of you're like, Oh, I just need to Google something and open some tabs, and oh, I need to go into my email or into this Teams folder.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:24.559
Every single time we do any of those things, we are very likely to go snakes and ladders right down the line.
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.240
Grab what you need, put it all on your desktop, right?
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:34.799
Cook whatever you need to cook, and then put back the things off your counter, clean your counter, clean your desktop.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.920
Mise en place would make us much more efficient than what we actually are.
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:43.200
Oh, I just need this one report somebody sent me in my inbox.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:44.240
Gone.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.599
Plus, mise en place.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.119
When you're cooking, I love all the cute little, fun, little tiny dishes and dishes of different sizes and all of that.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:32:01.680
So I'm like, okay, how do I imagine my desktop as things new little dishes all ready for me to just whoop, I'll take this research and I'll take this paragraph from something else I'd already written and I have the photos ready to put in.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:03.920
And yeah, exactly.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.119
I'm gonna do that and time myself on some tasks this weekend.
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.359
See how you need to get one of these.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:11.759
So I don't know if you've ever seen these.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.759
This is a time timer, it's called.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.759
It's made for kids with ADHD.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.079
It's to help with their morning routines, and it's like totally analog.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:26.880
When I'm trying to do a Pomodoro block of like, I need to work on this for 45 minutes without stopping.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:28.319
This is my friend.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.759
I really love my time timer right beside you can see how far away it is from me, right here, all the time.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:40.319
So that and so analog, so deliciously analog, I don't have to touch my phone or anything else.
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:45.680
And uh, I'm not allowed to stop in my flow block until it beeps.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:51.440
It does have a hilarious little cheap beep on it.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.880
Yeah, highly recommend my time timer.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.079
I just I got it online.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.319
So going back to basics.
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.480
Absolutely, yeah.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:10.799
So Leanne, when you think about highly ambitious people, what would a healthy, ambitious career look like through that thought load lens?
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:15.279
Yeah, you know when we talk about, oh, like I wish I had a faster metabolism.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:24.720
So we think about when we eat a big meal, we know that we need to stop eating so that we can digest and metabolize what we've eaten.
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.839
And that's what makes us healthy, right?
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:35.759
What we don't think about is we need to metabolize our thought load just as much as we need to metabolize our food.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:46.000
And so highly ambitious people should strive to have a high thought load metabolism so I can take in a lot.
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.519
I can then pull out what are the nutrients from what I took in.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.279
I went to a conference, great.
00:33:53.359 --> 00:34:06.480
What I was just speaking in a keynoting at a conference last week, and I was saying to them, make some space, make some time to think about what are my big takeaways, what insights, what relationship did I make that I want to follow up on, right?
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.199
What are the nutrients I can extract?
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.360
That's one part of metabolism.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.119
The second part is what's waste that I can just flush?
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:22.239
What are all the things, competitor information or you know, stuff I heard people talking about that I like, I don't need that.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.039
That's not me.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.880
I'm that's I'm not responsible for that.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.480
Woof, flush, bye-bye.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.440
And then the third thing we do in metabolism is we process anything toxic.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.239
And so what stories am I telling myself?
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:47.679
Maybe it's perfectionism or imposter syndrome or conflict avoidance, or but what am I telling myself a story about a meeting I had early in the week that's bringing me down or getting in the way of a healthy relationship?
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:56.239
So a high, highly ambitious person should be thinking about how do I up my thought load metabolism?
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:04.400
And so, what a highly ambitious person can do to do that is figure out a what deserves to be in my thought load and what doesn't.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:11.519
So do being much more aggressive and assertive and ruthless about this is what I'm here to add value on.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:17.840
People who aren't very ambitious and they take on all the tasks in the team that don't get valued.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:18.480
Yes.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:23.199
They're like taking the notes and making the follow-up and like, yeah, nobody's giving you any credit for that.
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:24.559
That's that's nothing, right?
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:34.320
So you focus your thought load on what really matters, what is worth my attention, what is worth being emotionally invested in, what is worth using my energy on.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.320
A highly ambitious person gets their thought load ruthlessly focused on the right stuff.
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.480
And the second thing is they stop eating sometimes.
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:53.360
So they recognize that they will need places to stop taking in new input so that they can actually metabolize and digest what's already in there.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:56.079
So highly ambitious people, they journal.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:04.639
They, you look at the Warren Buffett's of the world, big huge chunks of time in the calendar to think and write things and work on crafting the thoughts.
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:12.719
Lots of those highly successful people have some kind of fitness meditation, something routine where there's some time of nothing in their day.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:19.840
So that's how I want you to think about a highly ambitious person is somebody with a high thought load metabolism.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:30.800
They can take in a lot, pull out what's nutritious, flush, flush what's wasteful, and get through those toxic narratives much more quickly than the rest of folks.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.559
I love that.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.199
I have to take a personal note for that.
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.760
Oh, honey, we all have to take a personal note for that.
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:53.599
There's definitely one who would want to take on more and more, and I would grow and grow very quickly, but I didn't realize I was burning out until it was almost too late from a health perspective.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.679
You probably also weren't bringing the best insights to the table.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:03.360
So when you try and seize all the opportunities, you usually don't seize any of them, right?
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.639
Taking on more and more.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.719
There are short bursts in our careers where we can do that.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:20.719
But for the most part, you when you're doing that, when you never stop eating, you never pull out the nutrients, you never get the insight, you never get what's really unique.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.000
It's not just a burnout thing, it's also a value add.
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:34.000
How much value you can add usually depends on the chance to digest what's in there, rest, reflect, make connections between things.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:35.519
Yeah.
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:42.159
I think highly ambitious, speedy people, you can find the thing that works for you and do it regularly.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:56.880
And I just was telling Rebecca before you joined us today that I was like, oh, I had to really look at my calendar going into fourth quarter and say, I've got to get back to some of the things I was doing that were just helping me metabolize better.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:57.679
Recommit.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:58.719
Yeah, recommit.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:06.480
So it's funny because fast, busy people, they'll often tell me a story that they're like, yeah, but Leanne, I get a lot of shit done.
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:07.519
I'm like, do you?
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:09.519
Or do you just do a lot of shit?
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:09.920
Oh.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.880
And so it's that activity versus output.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:18.079
And lots of speedy people like pride themselves in feeling speedy.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.559
And when I look, I'm like, no, they're not actually getting that much done.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.400
And even if they're getting stuff done, is it the stuff that's moving the needle?
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.760
So yeah, what we want is for you to get to the destination fast.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:33.119
Yes.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:39.039
But going fast does not always get you to the destination fast, right?
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.320
So it's asking yourself those hard questions.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.880
Am I getting shit done or am I just doing a lot of shit?
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.960
When Katie and I used to work together, she'd always tell me that I'd have to slow, I'd have to slow down to be able to go fast.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.119
And it's really, really good advice.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.519
Yeah.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.400
I do move very quickly and then I would make mistakes.
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:15.760
And so I've learned to slow down, not just immediately respond to emails or submit some kind of uh numbers or something without actually slowing down, really looking at them and then sending them because yeah, that's when the mistakes would always happen.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:16.639
Yeah.
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:23.199
So the thing that I'm I talk a lot about now is like what, so what, now what?
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.800
And a lot of our speedy people go from what to now what.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:29.760
And they miss the insight in the middle.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:38.880
So what we want is to move efficiently from what did I just learn or what happened or what's the data or whatever else to so what?
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:40.559
What do I need to take from this?
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:41.519
What matters here?
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:42.880
What doesn't matter here?
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:43.920
What's this about?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.679
What would make a difference?
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:51.119
To have the insight before going to okay, now I'm going to do this.
00:39:51.599 --> 00:40:00.400
And so that putting the so what back in our world, especially if you're a speedy person, is one of the most important things.
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.039
And so just using that as your mantra, okay, what?
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:04.559
So what now what?
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:11.280
And just catching yourself when you try and go from what to now what, because that's that is definitely the inclination.
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.800
I gotta I gotta go, I gotta act, I gotta move.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:21.920
And if I hear one more executive give me the line about my people need a greater sense of urgency, I'm like, oh my god.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:23.840
Everybody says that's so ridiculous.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:24.960
It's so painful.
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:40.320
I'm like, no, what they need is to know which one thing right now they need a sense of urgency about because what you're doing is you're creating a sense of urgency for 50 things, and that's what's creating this kind of whack-a-mole crazy culture that we've got.
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:50.239
So it's not that the overall sense of urgency isn't there, it's they have just learned helplessness of trying to feel urgent about 50 things at once.
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:57.039
Tell them the one thing where you need to see them act with urgency and insight, and now we're talking.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:58.320
Yeah, I love that.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:03.280
I'm gonna hurt the next person who tells me that we need a greater sense of urgency.
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:04.800
Can't stand it.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.199
If you came, remember when you were saying earlier, go talk to your people, right?
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:10.559
Ask them what's going on.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:18.719
I feel like sometimes executives, if you spent more time watching what your people are doing every day or how much they have to respond to, you wouldn't say that to them.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:34.320
And it just goes back to when talking to your people, if you're meeting with them for 101s once a week or every other week, aren't you talking to them about what they're working on, what's going on, what's halted because they don't have access to certain things.
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:35.760
We don't have those conversations.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:37.760
What are we talking about in those 101s then?
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.679
So what I've seen lately is people bring in their really long to-do list.
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:42.000
Yeah.
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.360
And it's really just an operations update.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:42:00.800
So it's nothing about the person's thought load, about how well positioned they are, what they need to focus on, their most important outcomes, what they're emotionally processing and where they need help with that, what's the right cadence to renew their energy.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.239
No, those are the things we need to be talking about in our one-on-ones.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:13.519
First of all, this I did a LinkedIn post recently because a couple of big corp execs, Jensen Wang and among them, came out saying, I don't have one-on-ones.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:21.039
If my people there, my people are grown-ups, if they need something, they can come to me and like, oh my God, it's just totally missing the whole point.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:27.039
So there is more of this kind of going around at the moment that like grown-ups don't need one-on-ones.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:28.320
I'm like, wrong.
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:30.320
So some people aren't having them.
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:35.679
The people who are having them, they're just operations, updates, check off the box.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:41.199
It's not actually about setting somebody up to perform effectively.
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:41.840
Yeah.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.880
As a leader, your role is to set your team up for success.
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:48.480
And if you're not setting them up for success, you're setting them up for failure.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.960
And so by not having those conversations, you're totally missing an opportunity.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:54.639
Agree 100%.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:55.280
Yeah.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:56.400
Wow.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:03.199
Well, Ian, that sort of leads us into your thought load audit and the overwhelm assessment that you have.
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:11.360
If you were to guide our listeners as a starting point, if they're listening and they're going, oh my goodness, my thought load is so high.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:11.679
Yeah.
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:20.320
How do they figure out whether it's attention, emotion, or energy where they should intervene first and what would be their next steps?
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:33.199
Yeah, it's not a feed quiz and it's not going to tell you which princess you are, but we do have this awesome little assessment to help you understand how high your thought load is and whether it's coming more from your attention, your emotions, or your energy.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.400
So that's really fun.
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:42.800
And when you do that, then we have a whole bunch of free resources to help you start to get a handle on that one that's your highest before you move on to the others.
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.719
So that's the thought load audit.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:53.280
Then, because we each show our overwhelm in different ways, there's a fun overwhelm assessment that helps you understand.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:55.360
Do you tend to be more of a whirlwind?
00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:05.199
That's you guys when you're talking about all that action for the sake of action, or are Are you a stickler, which is when you get really overwhelmed, you become the person who goes back to the real book?
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:05.840
Rulebook.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:10.079
As per my email of April 27th, um, you go back to something.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:11.360
We all know one of those, right?
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.519
Or you're like me, you're a brooder.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.760
And when you get overwhelmed, you turn into eeure, you're like, anybody seen my tail.
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:27.920
Or you're a rogue, which is when you get overwhelmed by the rules and the bureaucracy, you just ignore the rules and find your own way.
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:45.280
And so that assessment's really helpful because it'll help you figure out not only what your overwhelm looks like and help you talk with your colleagues and your friends about different ways overwhelm shows up, but it also leads you to the tools for how to manage your own particular kind of overwhelm.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.400
So those are great fun, they're free for everybody to use.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:54.960
And then many of the tools to fix whatever you learn are also there and available for everybody.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:59.760
As we're rounding out the episode, can you also tell us about Thought World?
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:00.320
Yeah.
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.159
Oh, Thought World's so fun.
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:12.239
So when I was thinking about these readers, these folks who are just drowning because their thought load is so heavy.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.559
You can imagine that when I first had the thought of, you know what they need?
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:17.599
A book.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:19.920
I did laugh at myself, right?
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:28.400
Because, like, said no one ever when they're feeling overwhelmed is what I need is a nonfiction book, maybe really thick and hardcover, right?
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:34.639
So I set this expectation for myself and my editor and my designer.
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:40.400
I said, What if we made the book just like throwing them a life ring?
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.719
And the book is just enough to make you feel like I feel seen.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:48.239
I feel like I have just a few things to get my head above water.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:53.679
And then what if all the stuff to really go further with it was once they got on shore?
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:56.960
So I wrote a book designed to be buoyant.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.599
No section is more than four pages.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:02.719
Everything is built to be very readable.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.679
It's a soft cover so that it's so that it's not heavy to throw in your bag.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:15.840
It's and it's there's no page layout that doesn't have a visual breakup so that it doesn't feel daunting to read.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:20.559
So we did all of that, but that meant, oh, now we need to actually create the world on land.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:25.840
Where and so thought world is the world on land, if you want to put it into practice.
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.719
And it's it is now so full.
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:35.760
So there are 60 different resources in each of the categories of attention, emotions, and energy.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:47.519
And then the fun thing we've just launched is if reading a book still, even though it's the world's most buoyant book, if reading a book feels like too much, we're just launching the Thought Load curriculum.
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:57.840
And every section of the book, so the 24 little pieces of the book are each in a four-minute video with a downloadable tool to just do it that way.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:03.920
And so over the next six months, you can do one idea a week, four-minute video and a worksheet.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.480
And so all of that is all on Thought World.
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.159
And Thought World is also a community.
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:15.039
So you can chat with other folks going through the same thing, chat with me as we all help each other navigate this.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.280
So I'm really proud of Thought World.
00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:31.039
It's a whole place for those of us who are tired of work not working, tired of going home from work with no gas in the tank, tired of not feeling that sense on a Friday afternoon that wow, I did something really meaningful this week.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.880
So we all have one another to support each other and the tools to change that for the better.
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:37.840
We love that.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.000
I think Rebecca already started it and then she got on me today to join.
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.679
Yeah, please come join.
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:45.840
That was last week, right?
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:46.719
That was last week.
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:47.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:47.840
Yeah.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.000
And then I also am just gonna confirm the book is a very it is a quick read.
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.320
It's very easy to read, and it does, it gives you all the tools within the book too.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:58.639
But I'm excited about Thunderbone as well.
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:09.280
So yeah, if you can watch three TikToks, you can watch a whole chapter in four minutes and then get the tool right there to download to to put it into action.
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:16.960
So it's like I always think about when you're accountants, if you could put away one Starbucks latte a week, you would have savings for I feel like that.
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:17.840
Three TikToks.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:19.760
Just three TikToks a week.
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.800
You two can do it.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:24.320
You too can do it.
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:30.320
So, Liam, where is the best place for our listeners to follow you, connect with you?
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:38.960
Thoughtload.com will get you to a spot that has the link to the quizzes, to Thought World.
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:42.320
If you can get to Thoughtload.com, you can get the goodness.
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:48.559
And then if you can cope with the I's and the E's and whatever, you can find me on LinkedIn and connect with me there.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:50.639
Liam, thank you so much.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.880
This has been such an invaluable conversation.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.159
There's so many takeaways from our listeners and us too.
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:59.760
We really appreciate you, and we will see you next time.
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:00.559
Wonderful.
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.199
Thanks so much.
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:02.000
Thanks, Rebecca.
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:02.639
Thanks, Tim.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.320
Follow us on all your socials, NFNA Podcast.
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:07.679
Until next time.
