Faculty/Administration Cold War: Casualties and Causalities

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Ms.
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Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals.
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My name is Colette.
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And I'm Kurt.
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Kurt, how you been lately?
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We just finished up our traitors game.
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Yeah, and it was phenomenal.
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Uh I I I would never have guessed the outcome of that game.
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Me either.
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And for full disclosure listeners, we're recording this before the event takes place.
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So hopefully all will be good.
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So literally, I could not have guessed the outcome of it, is what you're saying.
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Yeah.
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I'm I am ready to jump right into our topic today, and we can save the chit chat for later because we have been talking ever since we started this podcast about having some of our super staff.
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It was one of those magical staffs that you dream about having uh many years ago.
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And we have wrangled two of them to talk to us this week.
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How about Tim?
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You go first and then Rumsey, we're gonna have you to introduce yourselves.
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Sure.
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I'm Tim Fleming.
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Um, I was an RA way back in, let's see, 2000 to 2003.
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I am now a lecturer in the Department of Psychology at a large R01 university in Southeast.
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Rumsey, how about you?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So uh I am an assistant dean in a college at a large public university in the Mid-Atlantic area.
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I've been at that institution ever since I left FM and since we were all together.
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So it's kind of crazy to think when I left FM that I was gonna be in the same place for a couple of years and then go back to a small liberal arts college, but just got sucked in and have loved almost every moment of it.
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Romsey, you live very close to Kurt and me, and we never see you.
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It's true.
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It's true.
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I could walk to Romsey and I've not seen him.
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We need to fix that.
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He has a fabulous life.
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He doesn't need to revisit the past.
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I love reminiscing.
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I thought we might stand a chance when I was it your niece was recruited to the last school I was a uh and then I took off.
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I know, I know.
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Yeah, she's there and and loves it.
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So it's it's great.
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Yeah.
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Well, it would not it feels like after all these years, it wouldn't feel right if we didn't do some kind of an icebreaker.
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I have devised something that I am calling RPO reality or Y2K fever dream.
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I'm gonna make a statement and you have to decide was it something that really happened in RPO land or was it a 20-year fever dream situation?
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I'm gonna keep score off to the side.
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And Rumsey, since you were last in, you're first up.
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RPO director films kiss documentary on off-shift hours.
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Totally RPO.
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Shout out to Colette.
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Tim, an anonymous donor, gave over$100,000 to the college on the condition that the clock in Old Maine be removed.
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I'm gonna go fever dream.
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Absolute fever dream.
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Did not happen.
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Uh Stephora Rumsey brought a llama to work.
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Uh I'm gonna say RPO, and that was Lucy.
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But but can we say that her backyard could also count as part of her work if she occasionally worked from home?
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So from a technicality.
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I would say work from home did not exist in Y2K.
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So she did not, in fact, bring a llama to work, to my knowledge, unfortunately.
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Tim, Rumsey being introduced at an alumni event as Ramsey Jabaji.
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I I'm gonna guess that's probably true.
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That is 100% accurate, unfortunately.
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On multiple occasions.
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Yes.
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Rumsey, multiple members of the RPO leadership team, moonlighting at the gap.
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Uh totally true.
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Yes.
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You remember that.
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Best year of my life.
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Tim, an employee creates a fake email account to anonymously call out a faculty member and then gets outed by their IP address.
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I mean, probably true.
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Yes.
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I don't know if you remember that, Colette.
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We'll talk offline about that one.
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I do remember, I do remember I accidentally hit reply instead of forward to an email, and it was actually I meant to report it to Colette, who was my boss at the time, to say, and I wrote, who does she think she is?
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And I accidentally wrote it to the person.
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Were the initials of that person?
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Don't answer that.
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I feel the fifth.
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Uh Rumsey, a resident assistant, is found sleeping naked in a common area.
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One of my own.
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One of my own.
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Totally true.
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Oh man.
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Oh my goodness.
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Tim, a staff member donates a kidney to a faculty member.
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I don't remember.
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I'm gonna say true.
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You are accurate.
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You were correct.
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That's so nice.
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College leaders at the time obsessed with mock turtlenecks and bow ties.
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Y2K fever dream or RPO reality?
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I'm gonna go with reality.
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Yes.
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That was the uh name.
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Yes, yes.
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I I yes.
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I think our president had a mild obsession with bow ties for a period of time, if I remember correctly.
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It's true.
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Tim, an RPO staffer had a discount code named after him at a local pizza shop.
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True.
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Do you remember who that staffer was?
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No, I don't.
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I can picture him, I think.
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I thought it was, but I don't.
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Rumsey was it you?
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Jabaji deal at Papa John's.
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And uh oh, um what was that place called?
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I thought it was Papa John's that if you called you'd get the five dollar pie.
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I think it was Rosa Rosa or Rosa Rosa, yeah, you can see.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Rumsey.
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An RPO staffer working in a monkey lab.
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Oh, that's uh totally true.
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Do you remember who that was?
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It was Andrea, right?
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I thought it was Tim, but it was definitely me as well.
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Well I remember an Andrea.
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Yeah.
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I don't even know who Andrea is.
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Okay, two more.
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Tim, a policy-themed Easter egg hunt.
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I don't remember it.
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Let's go fever dream.
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That was a real thing that happened.
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Oh man.
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I believe it.
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I don't remember it, but I totally believe it.
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That sounds like something that you and and your coworker will go nameless cooked on.
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100%.
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And Rumsey, final one.
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A member of the RPO leadership team secretly dating a reporter from WGAL.
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I'm gonna go with fever dream.
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I feel like I would have remembered that one.
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But if it was a secret, would we be able to remember it?
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Gotta know.
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That did happen.
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What?
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And was it new?
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Now yeah, we need the story.
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Oh man.
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You tied.
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Thank you for participating in that.
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Hopefully it jogged your memory.
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There was a tiebreaker uh about the tiebreaker was Matt Weaver claiming to single-handedly have introduced blonde leather to the Franklin and Marshall campus.
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Sounds on brand.
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I'm gonna go true.
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Yeah, and I support it.
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It was 100% accurate.
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So yeah.
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Thanks.
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It was a good warm-up.
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Okay, gentlemen, we have invited you here today because we read an article in the chronicle called The Campus Cold War Faculty versus Administrators.
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And we wanted to talk to real faculty and administrators and tear this thing apart and see how much rings true for you all.
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Uh, you're both from public institutions that are pretty large.
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Tim, you are a lecturer, you are like in the classroom primarily, Romse, you are academic adjacent, I would say, as an administrator.
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And Kurt and I talk about student conduct, which blends across many lines.
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So I wondered if we could start there and just talk about the relationships between faculty staff and your student conduct folks, or if you have a dean of students office, but then see where the conversation takes us in terms of general faculty and staff.
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Well, I'm gonna say faculty and administrators, because staff I'd like to talk about separately.
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Tim, you're our only uh faculty representative here.
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Is it fair of me to ask you to go first?
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Sure, sure.
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Have you ever had to refer a case over to your conduct folks?
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Yeah, I would say the majority of my crossover with the Dina Student's Office and conduct cases is actually with students of concern in the classroom who are probably experiencing mental health struggles and things like that.
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It's really the faculty members who are the ones seeing this firsthand, whether it's physically in the classroom or in email communication.
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You know, for a number of years, we were exclusively online and have now developed online programs where I still teach a lot of online courses.
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And there are some red flags that occur mostly in my experience in email communication.
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And sometimes students will disclose a lot more than is maybe typical.
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Um, and those are cases that I always feel, I mean, I'm Department of Psychology, so we're also pretty attuned to this amongst uh my colleagues.
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We feel pretty strongly about getting those students the support that they need and just passing along any red flags or even just orange flags.
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I will say the part of that process that's sometimes a little bit frustrating is that, you know, and I understand due to privacy, we we shouldn't get to know all the outcomes, but we pass along a report with some names and experiences, and we never hear anything after that.
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So we don't know if the student actually got any of the support that they needed.
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We don't know if that report went into a black hole in the internet.
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We we really don't ever get to know anything.
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And and again, I understand why that can be for privacy reasons, but I don't then want to follow up with the student and say, hey, I I sent your case over to the dean's office.
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How are things going?
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Because I don't really know oftentimes what that process entails.
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The only other thing I've dealt with in terms of student conduct will be some email communication where um lots of choice words are used and directed at me.
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And those cases also never seem to go anywhere.
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And the Dean of Students Office, you know, I I know it's their role to support the student in those cases, but there never really seems to be disciplinary action followed through with.
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And I have lots of colleagues who receive a lot of colorful language in their email communication with students that gets pretty, pretty far over a line of professionality and and respectability that we wish we were more supported on as the faculty member involved.
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Yeah, so I I would say that there is some minor tension sometimes in that relationship between faculty and administrators.
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But again, I I kind of understand that the roles and priorities are different as well.
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But you don't even get a standard like thanks so much for sending this over to us.
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We'll be following up this week.
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We won't be able to say exactly what will happen, but keep us in the loop, like just not just ghosting.
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No, I usually put in my reports for students of concern, especially.
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Please let me know that this report was received and your office is on it to some degree, and that does not happen.
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We've been told uh several times that that's due to procedure and privacy and and things of that nature, which I I I respect, but maybe just don't agree with all the time.
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Yeah, I call BS on not even being able to say that we received the report.
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There's no, in my mind, there's no loss of privacy in acknowledging that you're taking a handoff, I guess.
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I guess sometimes what we've heard is, well, just because you felt as a faculty member that this was of concern doesn't mean that we will always follow through because we may not evaluate it as a a real concern.
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Again, I respect that too.
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Um, you know, there are people trained very extensively in evaluating those kinds of situations.
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And, you know, we're just psychologists here at the department, but what do we know?
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There is some irony in that weaponization of privacy.
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And it's also a little, it's unusual to me, too, because I think every school I've worked at touts the importance and primacy of the relationship between faculty and students, that you see them most often, you or you engage with them, depending on if it's an online program.
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And to the point where I um I've seen studies where faculty were asked, like, how equipped do you feel to respond if you see a student in crisis?
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So for you to spend time putting a report in saying, I'm seeing something different in this student and not have it addressed is counter to I feel like everything that I've seen in the past 10 years about student engagement and students who are exhibiting concerning behavior.
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So that's that's disappointing.
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I mean, and and we just want to trust that it is being addressed.
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Um, but the reality is we have no relationship with these administrative offices, which is not of anybody's fault.
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There just is no daily overlap where we would have a rapport, we say, oh, I know that this report went to this specific person and they're really on top of it.
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So I'm sure they handled it.
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You know, if I had a personal contact over in that office that I knew was handling it, I would probably feel better about it.
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But I don't think that there's a lot of interaction and overlap between faculty and and offices like that sometimes.
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I admire you so much just for keeping doing I meet so many faculty members that like with AI or like I've just given up.
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I don't even report it anymore.
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And the mental health stuff like just goes into a vacuum.
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I why waste my time writing a report?
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So the fact that you're still putting it on somebody's radar, I think that says something about you.
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I would want you as my professor if I were a student.
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Well, thanks.
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Please come take a glass.
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I would love it.
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We'd use a little psychology.
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Romse, you work with well, you tell us, because I I feel like you uh kind of are in both worlds, academic and administrative.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So uh I I work actually quite closely with our student conduct office and also our dean of students office.
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Our structure at our university is maybe it potentially a little bit different than Tim's.
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So we sort of have our traditional student conduct office, which deals with academic and social misconduct issues and cases.
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We also have a dean of students office that sort of manages two separate teams.
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There's a beta team that is very, very common to exist on college campuses to deal with really serious, complicated student cases where they are potentially a threat to themselves or others.
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And then what actually is really a growing community and need is around what we now call a care team, which are not where somebody is an immediate threat to themselves or others, but they need a high level of touch point and support based on the complexity and significance of what they might be presenting with.
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And so I would say with all of those different entities, I work really closely.
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But hearing Tim talk about his experience as a faculty member, I hear some of that on our own campus, some of those similar concerns from faculty, particularly feeling like they also have a loss of a sense of control around the accountability piece.
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If a student has engaged in misconduct in their class and the faculty member really feeling like they're best suited to make a decision on how to hold the student accountable, but that feeling that that's taken away from them when it then lands into the student conduct office and not sort of fully understanding perhaps the role and purpose behind having a student conduct office, actually doing some of that work, ensuring that there's equity in how cases are being handled across campus.
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And so I do think that part of what my role has been is around maybe managing some faculty expectations around what happens when they're referring to student conduct and also trying to play a role in at least helping my conduct colleagues around communicating some basic practices that exist in conduct because they are completely and totally overwhelmed.
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The number of cases that they're handling and managing, the caseload volume has become more complicated and it's also become more frequent.
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In our case, our campus has also grown over the past two decades, but their staffing hasn't necessarily grown to that same level as well.
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And so I am trying to help support an office that is also really stretched thin.
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I really appreciate you being able to translate almost between two areas.
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Imagine if Tim had something like that where you could just let their faculty see behind the curtain.
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There is a national rubric that I like.
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It's from a group called Nabitta, and that's the national behavior group.
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And Tim, it kind of places people in a green, yellow, red zone, like you were talking about red flags or orange flags.
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And somebody in the green, the suggested practices just to do an outreach.
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Like, hey, Tim, you said a little something concerning in your email.
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Uh, do you want to talk about it?
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:21.519
But if the student ghosts them, they close it.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:24.319
Like it's because it's green, it's not life or death.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.440
But even if you could see that rubric and have some idea what was going on.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.559
Rumsey, how much time do you spend on stuff like that?
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:34.240
It really varies.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:38.480
So I can give you an ex uh an example without going into too much detail.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:48.000
I would say last fall, I dealt with probably the most complicated student conduct case of my two-decade-long career at my institution.
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:56.400
Between late August and December, it probably consumed 15% of my time.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.920
One, one student case.
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.920
And it was really complicated, really, really messy.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.200
It was such a unique case.
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:15.920
And it's not like I could have perhaps, you know, none of us were dealing with an issue that had um presented itself before based on the complexity and the uniqueness of the of the case that was presented.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.519
And it had a huge impact on our community, one student.
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:32.319
And in that case, actually, I will say the one, maybe perhaps silver lining, the one good outcome of that is I became very, very close with our student conduct professionals that we developed a real close relationship.
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.160
We developed a level of trust.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.559
And I I think that that is gonna carry itself into the next decade.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.640
And that will, I hope, be beneficial in how to handle future cases.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.680
Well, it's a great outcome for all the time that that went into that.
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:53.440
I am curious though, like just thinking about the article that prompted this discussion, how would you have rated your relationship with that office leading up to that?
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:59.519
Was it was it pretty solid, or was it kind of that the sense that Tim had shared of a little bit of a disconnection?
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:00.960
No, it was pretty solid.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.720
I think part of it is because I've been at the same institution for 20 years.
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.759
Over time, you develop a rapport and relationship.
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:23.039
I had the opportunity to co-chair a campus-wide task force on I I this is uh what I'm about to say is gonna feel like uh reminiscent of what I dealt with uh in our previous uh relationship more than 20 years ago at our previous institution.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:27.440
So, full transparency, I'm a bit of a skeptic about Greek life.
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:33.119
And um, so what do you do when you want to create a task force around Greek life?
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:39.839
You put a skeptic on the committee and you put also people who are also really firm believers in the value of Greek life.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.960
And part of that is negotiating our differing perspectives.
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:50.799
And so I spent a year actually co-chairing a task force that was really prompted out of student conduct concerns at my institution.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:21:00.960
And so as a result of that, I developed actually a really close relationship with our conduct office, particularly around the complexities of managing and handling social misconduct cases.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.440
The academic misconduct cases oftentimes are are usually pretty.
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:33.759
I I don't I don't want to say that they're, I don't want to diminish the the work, but they they team they tend to be fairly manageable to sort of navigate and respond to and and to address and to be fairly consistent in terms from an equity-based perspective around how to handle certain cases, whereas the social misconduct cases, oftentimes they're so nuanced, they're so unique, and they require an incredible amount of care involved in navigating.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:39.839
And we're dealing with another one today, um, actually at my institution, a really complicated issue.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:49.440
And so, yeah, I I have developed a really great amount of respect for the amount of care that conduct professionals have to go about managing social misconduct cases.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:57.839
That's a great delineation because I do think about cases that I've heard about on our campus and academic, like you said, it is it can be relatively cut and try.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.279
Did the student cheat or did they not?
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:09.759
When you're talking About social misconduct, you're talking about cultural influence and socioeconomic status and access and all kinds of variables that people may or may not feel comfortable addressing.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.559
Very interesting.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:25.119
I dream about having you two on panels because I think one way to build that trust with other administrators or faculty is to have them hearing cases with you and to see how complex something can be.
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:32.559
Tim, I'm I'm sort of shocked that you have not had experiences sending cheating cases over to student conduct.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.880
If you read the chronicle right now, you would think that the only thing happening in the world is AI.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:41.119
So how have you dodged that?
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:42.400
I have not.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:52.240
I didn't get into that yet because I always separate social misconduct from academic misconduct because our offices are a bit split there.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:58.960
The dean of students does not get at all involved with academic misconduct, to my knowledge.
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:09.839
There may be organizational structures that I'm not aware of at my own institution, even, but the processes as we see them play out as faculty seem entirely independent of each other.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.839
So I could address many things about academic misconduct as well.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:36.319
But I will say we've, at least in the psychology department here, we have taken a really different approach to not that we turn a blind eye to any kind of academic misconduct, because we certainly have not, but we have done our best to restructure a lot of our online course offerings such that we're not trying to be the police of academic misconduct.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:46.640
We set a lot of things up for effort-based high engagement assessments where we know students are generally less motivated to cheat.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:55.359
And then we've also started offering kind of a new format of course where it's really a hybrid, predominantly online course.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:03.839
So we'll let the students take a lot of probably around 80% of the course online and then come to campus for the high-stakes assessments.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:15.200
Really to, I don't want to say avoid the entire process of academic misconduct, but just to kind of redirect the kinds of things that might motivate a student to engage in academic misconduct.
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:20.000
I unfortunately do have a lot of experience with the cases of academic misconduct.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:24.799
And I don't want to overstate the percentage of students that are involved in that.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.359
I just teach super high enrollment courses.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:39.039
It still is a tiny fraction of the students, but it does seem like a really overwhelming portion of my job that in certain semesters in the past have felt a lot more focused on academic misconduct than I would like.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:49.920
As Ramsey was saying, too, we kind of pass along, we we decide what those cases look like and then pass them along to a process outside of academic departments.
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:55.359
And we do have faculty on a panel to review any cases that a student might appeal.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:06.799
And then that after the Committee on Academic Misconduct evaluates a case, it does have the opportunity to be overturned by other people in an administrative process.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.759
And that happens far more often than I think faculty would like to see.
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:19.759
And I think if I'm just providing an opinion, I think it probably has a lot to do with student retention.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:27.279
We don't want to discourage students from continuing their education by giving them pretty severe consequence.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:29.440
And you know, as faculty, we don't want to see that either.
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:40.720
We don't want to discourage a student from being able to continue, but there do need to be some consequences that are at least kept on file for a student to discourage them from continuing to happen semester after semester.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:42.079
Did I hear that, Ray?
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:52.400
So decisions were made about a cheating case and then they would be overturned by administrators outside the appeal process or as part of the appeal?
00:25:52.720 --> 00:26:07.920
It's it is part of the appeal process that if a faculty member finds that there was something not in line with academic integrity per the policies of their course, um, a faculty member would file a notice of misconduct.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:14.480
A student has a chance to appeal that and say, no, no, I didn't actually do what this professor is saying I did.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:31.759
And then an appeal meeting will be held with the student in question, the faculty member who filed the charge, students who volunteer on an academic honesty committee, and a panel of faculty members who part of their service is to be part of the academic conduct hearings.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:41.440
And then that committee will write a report as to whether they want to uphold the appeal, which is effectively finding the student innocent, or if they want to deny the appeal.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:52.160
And I know several of my cases, particularly of late involving AI, have been that the appeals have been upheld, even if a student does admit to using AI.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:59.039
I think there are certain, there are certainly a lot of opinions about whether using AI is academic misconduct.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.079
And I can I can definitely respect a diversity of opinions on it.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:07.279
But if you have a student saying, Yep, I just pasted your instructions and this is what it gave me.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.119
I don't really know what it means, but I should still receive a grade on it.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.039
I'm more on the side of, no, we should at least be able to give a zero on that assignment.
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.519
But not not everybody might agree with me on that.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.119
And and I'm okay with that.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:24.000
It's it's not the most satisfying thing that can happen in a week, but I've come to deal with it.
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:33.599
I was just curious, Tim, in that example though, one of the things that we've heard, so our faculty have experienced some similar things to what you're describing as well.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:43.200
And one of the responses that they get, it's sort of this technicality around, well, your syllabus doesn't have a policy that specifically states that you can't use AI.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:51.119
And so we're in this space of where I think faculty are really learning very quickly how to adapt and change some of their expectations.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:57.279
In that case, uh, a lot of our faculty then are putting that in their syllabi and making it clear.
00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:08.799
And then are you seeing that in even in the example of where a faculty member has a clear policy against the use of AI in assignments, that that's not still not sufficient for holding a student accountable?
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:09.680
That is true.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:15.279
We all have statements on um honest use of AI in our in our syllabi.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:19.599
Syllabi grew by an average of two pages since AI.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:21.599
Um so that we can be really clear about that.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:23.920
Because look, I I'll full transparency.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:31.119
I have one course where I do encourage the use of AI for certain portions of an assignment that I've got scaffolded for a project.
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:40.319
And, you know, I'll say, look, you can use AI to do these kinds of things where it tends to be pretty effective and it can just be efficient for you, but you can't use it for the final product over here.
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.160
And that generally goes pretty well.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:50.640
But if I try to say that students cannot use AI in any way to write a paper, that's where it tends to become a problem.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:29:16.559
I do wonder if this is uh just an area where the technology is progressing quicker than many institutions are equipped to develop policies, because to me, in an ideal world, the institution has a policy or philosophy around the use of AI rather than forcing faculty to figure it out on their own and then leaving students in a position where one class it's fully do whatever you want with AI, and in another class it is absolutely nothing.
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.960
How confusing is that for our students?
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.519
Yeah.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.079
I'm gonna offer a counterpoint to that, though.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:31.839
At a liberal arts college, you go and you take a poetry class and then you you head over to organic chemistry, and students can adapt to things.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.680
You are right, Kurt, that the technology is moving so much faster.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:42.880
So as soon as you have your perfect syllabi statement, there's some new technology that you wouldn't have anticipated.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:50.079
But a colleague just at his school uh created this thing called the again red, yellow, green list.
00:29:50.559 --> 00:30:02.720
When you sign up for classes, you can see like, oh, Professor Fleming has a red class, no AI allowed at all, but Professor Jibaji's class is a green, so we can use all the AI we want.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:13.519
And I was like, well, I think the reality is though, you might have some assignments that are a green, like go ahead and and use it as you're studying, but then for the exam, it's a red.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:23.359
Our only university policy surrounding it just says that you should you should adhere to the policy that your instructor has written in the syllabus.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:25.599
That's the only way it's addressed.
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:31.759
I will recognize that that is confusing because a lot of instructors will have very different takes on things.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:38.960
And Clot, like you said, in in one class it might generally be very acceptable to use it.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:52.400
And in other classes, you maybe shouldn't have to even say, like poetry, maybe, maybe we would naturally assume that nobody would ever want to use it to um, you know, compose poems.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.799
But I I think every instructor also should be clear about it.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:09.839
I don't actually hate the red, yellow, green approach to labeling a course because it does give students a little bit of consistency in interpretation of an instructor's specific policy.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:13.200
Yeah.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:20.960
But then I'm uh I am gonna side with you, Kurt, that I think every institution needs to have some policies.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:24.400
Like every faculty should address AI on their syllabus.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:25.920
That should be an institutional.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:40.079
Yeah, then administration has to support them then because it sounds like in Tim's case, they're saying, hey, adhere to what the faculty say, but then they turn in an incident in which a student has violated it and they're not supporting the faculty then.
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:49.039
So yeah, that's and it could just be a different interpretation of what violation of my policy really entails.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:53.839
But I can hear the differences in philosophies of your two universities too.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:01.920
Romsey, the way you talk about your policies, there is care at the center, like seeing the complexity of a case.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.000
It's because it's about a human.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:25.759
And to me, your system, it sounds much more punitive that they're assuming like if you catch somebody doing something, they're gonna get suspended or like there will be punishments issued instead of trying to figure out Actually, I I shouldn't say that there are really severe punishments automatically for one case of academic misconduct.
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.079
I don't think we suspend anyone.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:39.119
My understanding of the procedure is just that a first offense is a note in the student's file that would never leave the university, but it's there in case something were to happen a second time.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:49.599
And I I think sometimes faculty and administrators both don't want to discourage students by giving any kind of negative consequence to a behavior.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:33:03.759
But, you know, as a behaviorist in psychology, I kind of feel like that's one of the core ways that we learn things, but to still go out, like you're saying, you know, recognize that there is a human involved and to deliver that negative consequence with some care.
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:21.279
To make sure that we're considering the student in it in any kind of case, um, and make sure that they're dealt with with care and not just with objective consequences, but that there still be some consequences to behavior that we don't want to see repeated.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.400
I appreciate that.
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:34.079
I may add, though, at your system that they wouldn't come back after an appeal and sit down with you and at least give you an explanation if decisions are being turned over fairly regularly.
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:36.480
That that just doesn't sound right.
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:42.799
And there can be so much distrust, which I think was at the heart of this article was the whole trust issue.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:48.559
Yeah, can we talk on the grand scale of just faculty administrators?
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:50.960
Because there was a lot in that article.
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:53.119
Um, so this was from the chronicle.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:05.680
One of their theories was that COVID killed the trust, that the pandemic hit, decisions were having to be made very quickly at the top without consulting faculty.
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:15.920
And then after the pandemic, I mean maybe there was some trust in like, yes, we're gonna have to make some fast institutional decisions and everyone might not be able to weigh in on it.
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:21.840
But then after the pandemic, that it never went back to a more shared governance system.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:23.920
Do we grapple with that?
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:40.239
Yeah, I mean, so I would say if you think about the past six years, for example, and what has happened in the past six years as we think about higher education, and any one of the things that I'm gonna describe will be incredibly disruptive to the institution.
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:45.199
But it's that what I'm about to say, it's that it all happened within the six-year period.
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:58.880
So you have declining enrollments in in higher education that we knew we kept hearing about this enrollment cliff in 2025, and some institutions saw it earlier, some institutions haven't seen it quite yet, but it's coming.
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:05.199
And so you've got that piece of it in our in and our tuition-dependent institutions really being impacted by that.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:10.800
You've got the changes for our institutions that really rely on research overhead.
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:26.400
At many of our institutions, 40, 50, 60 percent of their research expenditures goes towards managing research overhead for things like electricity and um and and managing payroll and HR and those kinds of centralized systems.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:31.760
And that there's been a massive, massive shifts in our research expenditures nationally.
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:42.079
You've got issues, or you know, obviously, we know what COVID did and how it disrupted higher education institutions for, you know, 12 to 18 months in many cases.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:57.360
And then you had a federal government infuse enormous amounts of cash into higher education for that two to three year period where institutions really benefited from that resource, almost to the point where they became used to those resources.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:01.679
And then suddenly that became a cliff when that ended.
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:03.760
And so, you know, you think about that piece.
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:08.159
And then you look at the unions landscape that's happened in higher education.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:22.719
You've got faculty unions forming, staff unions forming, undergraduate and graduate student unions forming, and suddenly you've got a campus environment that might have four or five unions that they're navigating and trying to contend with.
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:30.480
So you've got all of these things sort of happening all at the same time, on top of decline in trust in higher education.
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:34.000
Uh, it's at its all-time lowest level since that's been tracked.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:40.400
You've got the cost of higher education going up massively, and that's not just in the past six years.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.800
To be clear, that's a 20-year issue.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.480
That started 20 years ago.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:55.679
And so I think about all of these things that have happened, and then on top of that, AI and what's happening in the employment landscape of recent graduates.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:09.679
And suddenly you're having a scenario of where our consumers, our students, are questioning not even the value, it's about whether they can even afford to go to an institution of higher education.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.679
And so I think about all of these things happening all at the same time.
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:28.159
Uh and when we've got resource scarcity mindset now playing out, because you've got expenses going up, you've got less resources to support the enterprise, and suddenly we're pitting entities against each other.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:36.639
And it's sort of this recipe for I, you know, a disaster that I feel like is been brewing for the past couple of years.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.480
And then you're going to see massive, massive shifts and changes in how we're allocating resources.
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:46.480
We're seeing many examples of where it's impacting institutions.
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:55.119
You have staff layoffs happening, faculty layoffs happening, even within its own state system, you have institutions handling things differently.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:07.039
And I do worry about some of the heart and soul of higher education is going to be really questioned and taxed these next few years as we contend with all of those things sort of happening all at once.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:08.719
It feels very overwhelming.
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:16.239
I mean, that's my way of saying, like, there's a lot of pieces of this article that I resonate with and understand.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:21.440
And I am normally this eternal optimist and glasses half full.
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:31.599
Have to share, you know, as I think about the current moment that we're in, this is probably the most nervous I've been about sort of the future of higher education.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:39.519
We talk about things as being, you know, cyclical and there are ups and there are downs, and this is just a down, and we're going to be back up again.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:41.519
And I say to myself, are we?
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:42.800
I I don't know.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.719
I I don't see that so clearly as some other folks do.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.599
To me, the article was getting at the just typical mistrust.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:39:03.679
But I think, Rumse, you have very clearly outlined all the disruptive elements, the context in which that distrust is happening right now is more pronounced and more chaotic than I think it ever has been.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.119
And I I agree with you.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:12.639
I think what it comes down to for me, what I am seeing is that schools are finally having to grapple with a scarcity of resources.
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:17.039
And you look around and you think, whose job is going to be cut in this scenario?
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:23.679
And I think a lot of schools are having to make decisions about staffing that they never had to make 10, 15 years ago.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:25.599
And it's scary for people.
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:38.639
I have to believe that that is a huge contributing factor to some of the tension that exists, not just between faculty administrators, but you throw staff into the equation as well, who are often some of the most disenfranchised folks on a college campus.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:45.599
Uh, and it does create an atmosphere where people feel pitted against each other instead of working together to solve a problem.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.480
Tim as Ramsey was talking about the perfect storm of all of these elements.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:58.000
I would say the, I mean, I would obviously I was um implicitly agreeing with everything Ramsey was saying.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:59.760
I can resonate with all of it.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:12.320
I think what we feel from the student side is maybe more of a curiosity as to how what we're teaching them is going to get them into the career that they desire immediately.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:17.199
And, you know, to be quite transparent, I think that's something that faculty should always be prioritizing.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:23.199
That can be a little tough when you're teaching a really large intro to general psychology course like I do.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.960
You know, I don't know how to always explain, well, this is how this is going to get you career ready by tomorrow.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:36.079
No, this is gonna make you a better human and better able to appreciate and understand the diversity of all behavior people that you interact with.
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:37.280
And they're like, well, how's that?
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:39.280
Am I gonna earn more money because of that?
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.920
Sometimes as a follow-up question, which is totally legit.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:46.639
So uh, so we do tend to feel some of that shift from the students also.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:41:03.599
I think just as faculty, and and this is not because of anything that our administration has ever made us feel necessarily, just when we read things that are happening at other universities about what we're allowed to teach and say in the classroom politically, makes a lot of us very nervous.
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:05.360
There could be policies.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:21.360
You know, not that we're ever out there preaching anything outside of what is part of the core curriculum, supported by learning outcomes and everything that we do to develop courses as faculty, but you know, certain topics just being off the books for considerations now.
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:27.360
There are whole departments, I think, that worry about whether they can continue teaching certain courses.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.880
And then that has effects on staffing and things like that.
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:37.920
If I'm the one who normally teaches these courses, am I gonna get the opportunity to teach the courses that we are allowed to continue?
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:40.400
Or am I gonna, you know, lose my job?
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.559
And it's it's a little unsettling.
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:49.360
I will I will say that our I do have trust in our administration that they want to do the right thing and support faculty.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:42:01.679
If if a student were to ever complain that, you know, we don't have this in our state yet, but you know, there are some states where we're not allowed to talk about gender on a scale that is not binary.
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:08.719
Um, and in psychology courses, I will say a scale that is not binary is in the textbook and it's part of our learning outcomes.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:14.639
So we feel pretty safe on that being good, hard, scientifically backed evidence-based teaching.
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:22.159
But I don't, I don't know that that it will always be the case in my state, and I don't think that that is the case anymore in other states.
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:38.639
And so if a student were to ever complain about what's being taught in their courses, I do, I have a sense that our administration supports us as faculty, but we had not had that yet happen at our institution that I'm aware of with what's happening in the classroom anyway.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:47.280
And so I think because we don't have a good track record of faculty being supported, because there hasn't been a need for it just yet, there are a lot of us who are pretty nervous.
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.079
Do I mean if you work in systems that are um called shared governance?
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:56.239
We call it collegial governance, but yeah, it's a similar concept.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:59.519
Yeah, so we have a shared governance system.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:05.360
We have a campus senate, so we don't have separate senates uh like some institutions.
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:12.719
Uh, for example, I had an adjunct teaching role for I think seven or so years at a private institution in the district.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:27.440
And uh in that example, um, they had a faculty union and a staff union, but the faculty union really was the union that had had sort of the power and it very much was a shared governance role there.
00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:30.880
At my institution, we don't differentiate.
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:42.559
We have a campus senate that brings together faculty and staff together in a truly a shared system around policies, but it's not like the other institution that I had an adjunct role with.
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:58.320
They provide advisement to the president and the provost, but ultimately it's the president and the provost and the and the cabinet, the president's cabinet that makes decisions on the institution with really limited, frankly, limited influence from the campus senate.
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:02.960
Um they serve more in a Um advisement function than anything else.
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.199
I mean, they obviously set campus policies.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:12.559
For example, they approve academic programs that go on to the president for signature before they go to the state.
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.440
But other than that, it's that's more of a formality.
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:24.400
I would say that our institution, the faculty, I think, and the administration have a fairly positive role.
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:26.719
There is a fairly trusting role.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:35.360
We've really been tested this past year from a financial perspective, like many institutions have, and it's resulted in layoffs.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:40.639
That being said, those layoffs, 100% of the cuts were from staff.
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.599
And it was specifically designed that way.
00:44:43.840 --> 00:45:08.079
And so what we're seeing now, and then also just some really problematic pieces around staff compensation that's played out over the past uh actually three years now, that all of these things are really coming to a head where I think staff are starting to develop uh some mistrust with the institution because of what they some of the treatment that has taken place that has been felt a bit more targeted towards staff.
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:23.360
At the same time, I just want to acknowledge that um, like our institution and many others, uh, the number of staff investments over the past 10 years, 15 years in growing staff positions has massively, massively outpaced investments in faculty.
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:32.400
And I would say actually the piece for me that I'm most concerned about is investments in core permanent faculty investments.
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:50.079
Um, seeing that really, frankly, erode over the past 10 to 15 years and really investing more in instructional faculty positions that are not maybe perhaps permanent, they're not stable, they're not as well resourced, they don't come with the same protections, they don't come with the same benefits.
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:56.719
Uh that that has me concerned as well because I don't I don't know that that model is going to be sustainable much longer.
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:09.679
To me, I I mean, if we're looking for a a solution-oriented ending, it does sound like the the secret formula is better communication and more opportunities to to share work in our organizations.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:24.320
I think Clette, you and I recently talked about some of the stuff that went on at Penn State and how institutions can maybe become so big that things start to not work the way that we want them to when we're working at a smaller school or when we're having ideal results.
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:38.239
So I think it does become you have to be more intentional about making opportunities for faculty, staff, and administrators to sit on committees, do work together, understand the work that each group is doing so that some of that trust starts to build back up.
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.239
It does not happen on its own, though.
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:50.880
I mean, I think, you know, Kurt, I it was before even before this, sort of reflecting on, you know, some of the best moments in my career, some of the work that I'm most proud of in my career.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:57.679
And I it wasn't, you know, I was thinking specifically about one example because Tim comes from a psychology department.
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:21.920
So one recent example, and this is where I think I do see so much of I think the future of our success and sort of navigating in this space of chaos is not to put pit us against each other and and competing against each other, but it's finding synergistic ways of where we can partner across the academy and sort of recognizing the unique skills that each entity brings to the table.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:29.119
And so I'll give you one sort of specific example from my own work, but I have a lot of these kinds of examples and they oftentimes are some of my favorite.
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.599
I I love partnering with faculty.
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.400
It's some of my most favorite work that I've done.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:44.880
But one recent example is we have um a group of psychology professors that have a real clinical expertise in uh neurodivergence.
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:55.119
And and we, this is a growing, this is a growing body of students, especially within an engineering and STEM college like the one that I'm in.
00:47:55.280 --> 00:48:06.719
And that I would say that a lot of ways that we've invested in really improving the educational environment hasn't always, I think, responded to the needs of students with different learning needs.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:19.599
And one specific example of where we partnered together with our psychology department is to actually stand up a new, what ended up being donor-funded initiative to actually try to shift the culture in my college.
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:43.679
We've got 5,000 undergraduate students in my college, and we created a donor-funded initiative that will actually stand up, uh launches this year a faculty training program and micro-credential for faculty to engage in more inclusive teaching practices really designed for our neurodivergent students, but that it's not gonna just benefit our neurodivergent students.
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:45.119
It actually will benefit all.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:50.800
When you design for some, it oftentimes will actually be designed for all.
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:58.960
And so this was an example of where we did not, as an engineering college, we don't have the clinical expertise in um supporting neurodivergent students.
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.719
But we certainly have a very deep donor base.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:07.679
We have a donor base that's really committed to the student success in our college.
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.559
And we were able to tell a story to a donor that really resonated with them.
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.000
And we did it in partnership with our psychology department.
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:22.480
And we are this donor ended up giving$2.1 million to stand up this initiative.
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:28.239
And I think about how it's gonna actually really transform the learning environment for all students.
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.119
And that was a partnership with our psychology department.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:46.559
Part of that pie, even though it's an engineering donor, part of that pie is gonna be to support the clinical expertise of our psychology department, to be able to then ultimately help to support our learners in our college, but it also will benefit them.
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:55.039
Uh, it provides resources that will allow them to engage in research in this space more than they would be able to otherwise.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:04.000
And so that's just one example of where I think about how if faculty and administrators didn't come together to really, we we started from the ground up ideating together.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:05.840
We met weekly to buy weekly.
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:07.280
We built this program design.
00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:10.320
It has lots of different program elements to it as well.
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:14.159
It also has a cohort-based component of 10 students per year.
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:18.800
And so there's different components to it that we co-created together.
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:27.679
And I think about, you know, that program is only in its first year, but the real impact that that's gonna have and the stories that we're gonna be able to share down the road, I think are pretty profound.
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:37.599
And that would not have happened if administrators and faculty who had a clinical expertise in a particular space that we don't came together to really build to build a new initiative around.
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:38.320
I love that.
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:53.840
I've seen uh universal design for learning programs rolled out, and I think your model is the best one where you pilot it in one division and you get broad buy-in from different departments, and the long-term benefits are huge.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:56.239
I mean, it starts in your college.
00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:04.239
I imagine five, 10 years from now, it is in other colleges across your campus and maybe just universally adopted.
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:04.960
That's awesome.
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:07.360
And we're also hoping nationally.
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:19.519
I mean, not we we obviously are focused on our own campus, but really we see part of what we might develop and learn from this model and this initiative might might be a model that could be replicated elsewhere.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:20.239
Very cool.
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:23.280
I like that you've got the experts doing it too.
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:31.840
Um finding it in a lot of places, the leadership has all gravitated or like the decision-making leadership is all at that cabinet level.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:44.719
And it's forgotten that your creative folks, the folks who are doing the work on the ground who can come up with the best solutions, those are the folks that need to be empowered to be able to do that.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:51.840
So that sounds like an innovative climate where you can you can see the need and and respond to it.
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:53.280
Yeah, that it's really awesome.
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:56.719
I mean, I wish we had more initiatives like that.
00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:07.599
And I I'm aware that a lot of it comes down to whether there are resources for it and even getting faculty involved not from the training side, but from the participation side.
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:13.599
You know, a lot of faculty might say, okay, well, when do you want me to learn all this and implement it in the classroom?
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:22.320
And so now you're asking me to do more for the same paycheck, you know, not to monetize everything, but you know, we may want to do these things.
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:36.320
And having faculty involved is, I think, super valuable to a lot of the development of such initiatives because we might be the ones who know whether it's realistic to be able to apply certain things in a classroom.
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:46.239
You know, there are a lot of centers for teaching excellence on a lot of different campuses where none of those folks have ever actually been in a college classroom.
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:51.679
And so the advice that is handed out is just super impractical.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:54.159
Um, and sometimes it's great as well.
00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:59.119
But, you know, there's an element to, you know, oh, this is wonderful.
00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:04.719
And in an ideal situation, we would have all of our instructors doing all these great things.
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:11.119
And then you check in with the instructors and they might say, well, when am I going to be able to teach the concepts in psychology?
00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:22.079
You know, you want me to focus on all these other things that all do relate to student success validly, but then we have to also look at our learning outcomes and say, well, what is it that I'm really tasked with doing here?
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:25.760
And it becomes a pretty hefty lift sometimes.
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:31.599
But super great, I think, to have faculty involved at that early stage in an initiative like that.
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:32.159
That's awesome.
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:38.639
And cross-disciplines that like to tap your psychology professors for an engineering endeavor.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:39.679
Brilliant.
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:46.639
And I think to Tim's point, if it's an institutional priority, there's got to be release time or stipend or something.
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:49.199
You can't just expect people to absorb additional work.
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:53.199
But sometimes there are folks that do want that and they're just left out.
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:57.840
They're like, well, we don't have the money to pay someone extra, so we we won't even ask.
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:02.559
And some people will take on work like that as a part of their tenure and promotion process as well.
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:04.960
So there are service absolutely.
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:07.280
Yeah, there's lots of ways to cut it.
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:18.880
But when it comes down to brass tax, if it is important to the institution that students of all types succeed, sometimes you got to pony up some some money for folks to get the training they need.
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:35.280
We were um in our donor-funded initiative, uh, we were very protective of that, of building that into the program model as compensation to acknowledge the labor involved in redesigning a course and actually investing in a semester-long training program.
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:36.320
I could not agree more.
00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:41.519
That is something so targeted too to a group of students that really need it.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:55.119
That money could come back on the other end too, from students who graduate that might not have graduated otherwise or found success in different ways than they ever imagined and just want to give back now so somebody else could.
00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:58.880
This does seem like a happier place to end the episode.
00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:04.079
Thank you, Kurt, for steering us towards some creativity.
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:06.239
Away from the enrollment cliff and towards hope.
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:11.599
Rumse and Tim, I hope this won't be the last time we see you two wonderful humans.
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:13.280
No, this was super fun.
00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:14.480
It was good to catch up.
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:15.440
The end.
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:19.039
All right, you two.
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:24.239
Thank you for your generosity of time today and wisdom.
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:28.239
And uh, we hope everybody will tune in next time for more Ms.
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:28.880
Behavior.
00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:29.679
Take care.
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:31.039
Thank you guys.
00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:35.679
Ms.
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.840
Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:46.000
Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:47.519
You can contact Ms.
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:48.719
Behavior at Ms.
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:51.440
BehaviorCollege at gmail.com.
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:55.679
That's msbehaviorcollege at gmail.com.