Preparing for Suffering

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This is Missio Ecclesia, sharing stories from the mission field, engaging ideas with charity, and recovering the church as the center of missions.
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Sam, we've got a great guest today, and you've been friends with Marwan uh for some time, right?
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Yeah, so we actually got to know each other working on something called the Great Commission Council.
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And I think just in each other, we discovered sort of a kindred spirit in so many ways.
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We even joke sometimes about being twins.
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We have a shared birthday, uh, we have a similar appearance, except of course one of us is Anglo, the other's Arab.
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We sometimes joke that I'm the Anglo-Marwan and uh Marwan is the Arab Sam.
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So nice.
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Glad to have him.
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Yeah, thanks for being here.
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Uh I've only met Marwan once, and so in preparation for this conversation, I've been reading and listening to some of your stuff, brother, and I've been challenged.
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And we're really glad that you're here, looking forward to this conversation.
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So it'd be good to start, I think, if you could give our audience just a brief biography of yourself.
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Tell us about what you're currently involved in, and definitely explain your X handle for us, the urban Arab.
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Yeah, sure.
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I I guess I can start with that.
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First of all, yeah, good to be with you guys and uh thankful, thankful for this time.
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I look forward to the next time we can cross paths in person.
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Yeah, I think what's fun with Sam and I is that we kind of keep discovering new things.
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And so we didn't know about each other's birthdays till a few years into the friendship.
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And so with my X handle, Twitter handle, nothing exciting to say there.
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Back when Twitter started, you're trying to get something and think of what makes sense.
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And so I'm an Arab.
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That part is self-explanatory.
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I'm a city guy, and so uh I thought urban, it's it's both something I uh I like that I have that handle, but I'm always a bit embarrassed to ever have to say it out loud now when someone says, Oh, how can I follow you?
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To say the urban Arab out loud is uh not something I thought about when I chose it.
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There you go.
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Um, but yeah, I uh I was born in this part of the world.
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I'm you know recording with you guys right now in Beirut, Lebanon, where I live, but my family history and background kind of spreads throughout the region.
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I was born in Kuwait.
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My father is Lebanese and Palestinian, my mother is Iraqi, she's more specifically Chaldean.
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So she was born in Baghdad, and from a young age, my family moved to the US and grew up there in San Diego, California.
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So that's why my accent sounds maybe more American than anything else.
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So I grew up in a nominal Christian family.
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You know, one thing I'm proud of and kind of humbled by is that I'm tied to ancient Christian faith.
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Both sides of my family, as far as they go back, they're from the region and they've always been tied to Christianity.
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My family has a sort of Catholic-flavored Christianity.
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And so I've known the story of Jesus, but didn't know him until a bit later in life.
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By God's grace, I came to faith at a young age, still pre-teen, and um been trying to follow him faithfully since then.
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Yeah, amen.
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And now living in Beirut, you are the pastor of the City Bible church there.
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So tell us a little bit about how that happened and about the church.
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Yeah, so throughout my teenage into university years, it just was a desire and a kind of a growing desire, if you will, to just serve the Lord.
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Didn't know what that looked like, but I just knew I loved the church and enjoyed being around God's people and serving in any way I can, whether it's from teaching to youth ministry, uh, cleanup, music, whatever it was.
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Just loved the church.
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And that love grew over the years.
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There was at one point, I was in my university years, that the way I describe it is my eyes were open to lostness.
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You know, I was kind of just in my world, in my life in Southern California and thankful for it, but I wasn't as aware of what's happening in the world.
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And so there kind of came a time, of course, more details to that story, but I just realized that there were people all around the world who would live an entire lifetime, even some for generations, that would never hear the name of Jesus.
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And so I was impacted by that.
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And it really was as if my eyes were open to it, as if I had not known it before.
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So along that trajectory, went from the whole world to more specifically and somewhat more quickly, the Middle East, because of my background.
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Again, not really knowing what any of that meant.
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But I would say in my 20s, the Lord just developed a clearer love and understanding of the church.
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So if you were the Great Commission to go, kind of that general call became more specific towards local church ministry, specifically church planting.
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And so, yeah, we moved to Dubai, spent a couple of years there with the church in Dubai, did an internship and residency.
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And actually, coming up here in October will be 10 years since we moved to Beirut, Lebanon.
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You know, when many Western Christians think of a country like Lebanon where you live, they immediately associate it with Islam because it's in the Middle East.
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And of course, there are a lot of Muslims in Lebanon.
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But as you alluded to in your testimony just a few minutes ago, Christianity, the church, has been in Lebanon for a very long time.
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So he tells a little bit about the history of Christianity in Lebanon.
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What is it you mentioned Chaldeans?
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Who are the Chaldeans?
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Yeah, so Chaldeans would come for, I mean, if you're you know.
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Open up your Bible to Genesis and you look at Abraham, where did he come from?
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From Ur of the Chaldees, right?
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And so this is, these are old lands, old people groups.
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And so actually, I wish I understood more about my mother's side of faith and the history.
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But if we look at Lebanon and the Levant region, Christ himself preached the gospel of the kingdom here in this land himself.
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Uh, one of my favorite stories, even before I connected it to Lebanon, was always that of the Syrophoenician woman, Mark 7, Matthew 15.
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It's one of two accounts where Jesus is having a conversation with a Gentile two times only, that he refers to someone's faith as great faith.
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And you guys know that story where this woman says, Would you heal my daughter?
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And then Jesus says, No.
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And he says, No, a couple of times.
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And she's persistent.
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And he says, It's not right for her to feed the dogs from the table, right?
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And then she says, But even the crumbs that fall down, and he just looks.
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I actually we don't know in the text.
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Does he look at her or does he look at disciples?
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But he refers to her faith as great faith.
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Well, that took place in the region of Tyre and Sidon, which is 45 minutes, an hour and a half drive from where I am right now.
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And so Christ himself preached the gospel here.
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And so there have been people believing in Jesus and trusting in Jesus since the days that Christ walked here.
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Another thing, if I can share, I didn't learn this until I came to Lebanon, but I've come to find out that historically and tradition tells us that the first church that was planted here in Beirut was in the year 66 A.D.
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Actually, as I look into it, that's likely the year that Quartus, who was known as the Bishop of Beirut, was martyred.
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And so it was likely before that time.
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I didn't even know that there was a person in history named Quartus, even though I've read his name, but just it's not one of the names that stand out.
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I remember visiting a very old church in the heart of the city, and there was a prominent painting there inside.
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And I asked the woman who was working there, who's that person?
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And she said, That's Quartus.
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He's in the Bible, she told me.
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And I was thinking, sure he is.
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Like I don't..
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I've not heard his name.
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She says, in Romans 16.
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And it was incredible to think that, you know, Romans 16 at the end there is when Paul does his shout-outs, and he says, you know, greetings to this person, I'm with this person.
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And in verse 23, he refers to Quartus, our brother, greets you.
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And so one of the first churches that were planted were in the city that I've planted a church.
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And so it's a really lovely history of Christianity in Lebanon.
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Yeah.
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Could you tell us a little bit more about City Bible Church, maybe about its makeup?
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It's an English language church.
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So maybe explain a bit about the strategic value of an English language church in a place like Beirut.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So I speak Arabic.
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I'm I would say I'm conversationally fluent, though I'm not at the level where I can preach in Arabic.
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The plan was, as far as I can remember.
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Have you tried?
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Yes, kind of.
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Um, I know my limits and my capacity.
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And my yeah, my faith probably needs to grow there.
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But yeah, so I came with a thought, I think, to spend some years language learning.
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I already have quite a foundation because of my background.
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And that was the plan, as far as I remember.
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But in coming to a new city, we wanted to make sure to connect with those who've been here before us and those who are here at the time that we came and just ask them what are the needs in the city?
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I was thankful for Dave out in Dubai, who kind of helped me to see the importance of doing that, right?
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Let's go and find out what the needs are instead of coming in with a plan on our own.
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What is the church already doing if the church is established there?
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What is happening?
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How can we join along with the work of the gospel?
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And in speaking with a prominent Baptist pastor in the country, he said, we need English-speaking churches.
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I remember thinking, that's not why I'm here.
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You know, I speak Arabic, I have Lebanese citizenship, not moving to the Middle East to reach university students or expats.
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And yet he cast the vision, and about many who over the years have left the region, whether for persecution or for opportunities in the West, and have come back, they prefer English.
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They might have married a Western spouse, which is my case.
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I left because of war, and the Lord drew me back.
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And even though I speak Arabic, I prefer English.
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So he cast this vision, and by the grace of God, we listened.
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I like to say that I think we're doing one of the most strategic things in the country by having an English-speaking church.
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And I say that confidently because it wasn't my idea.
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Like it's not something I can take credit for.
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So as far as the makeup, Dean, of our church, the church was planted in spring of 2018.
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And it's grown by the grace of God over the last eight years, specifically in the last couple of years.
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We've gone from probably an average of 40 adults to now about 100 adults in the last couple of years.
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And for the lifetime of the church, we have been between 50 to 60 percent of the congregation are locals.
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So of the 100 on a Sunday morning, 50 to 60 would be Lebanese, Armenian, and the remaining would be an international mix from the West to Africa to the Far East.
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And so it's a really beautiful makeup.
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Not common, I think, with English-speaking churches, where usually, for example, my experience in Dubai, churches are much larger, and yet there are just a handful of locals.
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Again, that's just the makeup there.
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And so Lebanon, we've found is a bit different in our experience.
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So we're thankful for that.
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As are we.
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Yeah, that's we're thankful for that as well.
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Marwan, one of the main things that we wanted to spend our time together with you talking about today is the issue of suffering, suffering of Christians generally, suffering on the mission field.
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You live in a country that has been war-torn, that has seen millions of Syrian refugees flood in, that had the port explosion in 2020.
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You've counseled countless expats about whether they should stay or go, even as their embassies encourage them to go.
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As you already mentioned, you're an American citizen.
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You could have left, you've stayed.
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So could we start that conversation by you just helping us understand why you've stayed through all of those difficult things, including bombs dropping near your home, near the church.
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You have a family.
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Yeah.
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Um Dean, you forgot a couple of major crises.
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You forgot about the revolution, the economic collapse.
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You know, if we're gonna list out the CV like Paul does, we can kind of just take a whole chapter doing it.
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Um, it's it's um the things that the Lord has allowed us to experience as a family and as a young church, we could have never planned.
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I remember joking over the years with the brothers in Dubai and others throughout the years.
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Said, you know, I'm looking back at my old notes when we were kind of talking about expectations or vision for a church plant.
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I said, we just never covered what to do if your church explodes, right?
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I mean, you you miss that in the curriculum.
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Of course, I say that jokingly.
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Uh, and then I I often follow it up and say, even though we didn't cover the details of any of the things that we went through, the foundation kept us through it all, just really understanding the vision, the importance of the local church, understanding the role of Christ in our life and and having a deep theology that that stays us in the middle of all these things.
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I'll try to answer it or give a few reflections rather than give an answer, Dean.
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But I think for one, why did we stay or how did we stay?
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We didn't know how we could leave the church.
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So I think that was a category that we were functioning with.
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I didn't know how, as the lead pastor, primary preacher of the church, my wife and I, Marcy, we've moved out here to give our lives to Christ and to his people and to see this church planted.
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We didn't know how we could preach the gospel of the kingdom, encourage a hurting people who, like you said, war-torn people have been living through things before we came out here, and to point them to Christ and the hope we have in Christ.
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And then as the earth rumbles a bit, we say, We're gonna go, and then we'll come back.
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I want to be clear that that's not wrong.
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And we'll I think we'll talk about some categories of how we can think through some of these things and want to make the decisions to say or to leave.
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But for us, one of those categories were that I didn't know how I could leave in the middle of a sermon series, pointing people to Christ and say, We're gonna be praying for you.
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We're gonna fly out for one or two months and we'll come back when things are better.
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We'll just pick up where we left off.
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I didn't know how to do that.
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That just was a choice that we we didn't want to make.
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And we've prayed that the Lord would be able to keep us.
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That was always something as well.
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We can plan as much as we try, but there is a sense of just praying, God, we don't know what to expect tomorrow.
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And yet we pray by your grace that you would be able to sustain us, that we're able to stay.
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So that was a big part of Marcy and my prayers before the field, and then also on the field.
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Before coming out, we tried to be real with the costs that were possible for what was before us.
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We were moving to a country that is war-torn, as you said, and has a history of crisis.
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I remember thinking it's only a matter of time before something happens.
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Again, we could have never expected these last seven years of life to be what they were.
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And yet I think for us, we had costs and we considered them and we trusted the Lord with them.
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I think in counting the cost, also it might be the costs are too high.
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There has to be a category for that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you've stayed, and and kind of as you mentioned, you don't necessarily say that that should be true for everybody.
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I don't think that you would say that all missionaries must stay when the events like this comes and suffering comes.
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So I guess the next question would be how do we arrive at wisdom about the decision to stay or to go when trials come?
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How do we know?
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Where does being a husband and a father enter the calculation, especially as we consider that our decisions not only impact us, but those that we have a responsibility to protect?
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I saw somebody on social media, I think on X uh in recent days, post something about how is an abdication of fatherly responsibility to take one's family into a war zone.
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How should we as missionaries think about that?
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How do we get at a decision?
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I know, as Dean mentioned, you've counseled a lot of believers through the years, through that.
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So what do you say to them?
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Yeah.
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I think there should not be any sort of blanket statements.
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No matter what we're doing, this, I think that can too easily lead into the flesh rather than trying to discern season by season.
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Uh and certainly so.
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I wanted to give my life and all that I could to Christ when I was single.
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And I considered the cost as a single man.
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Marcy as well had that same call.
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So she on her own considered, but when I was married to her, there was a sense of, now this is different.
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You know, I'm willing to suffer.
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And I've counted the cost for myself, but now I have a responsibility and a spouse.
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And what does that look like?
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So we had to work that together.
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And again, another category when we have children.
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Yeah, I think even more so being kids who don't have the freedom to make the choices.
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So we're making choices for them, as opposed to, you know, Marcy and I deciding and praying together.
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So I think it's difficult to just kind of say you should never do this or we're always going to do that.
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I think categories and levels are helpful.
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.640
Uh again, I go back to counting the costs.
00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:24.960
I think if we're looking at the threats or the fears as our kind of first lens, we're off to a bad start.
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:32.799
I think there has to be a level of Christ is worthy and our lives are not our own.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:37.920
And so we begin there and then say, well, what does this mean when this happens?
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:43.519
In our situation, we weren't able to imagine some of the costs that could happen.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.640
But again, through it, season by season, chapter by chapter, we consider how are we doing?
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:50.400
What are the needs in the church?
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:51.519
How are our children?
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.200
I mean, that was the biggest thing for us.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.880
Instead of looking at one another, we're looking at what are the needs of the church.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.799
And we could see that we are needed.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.440
And so we pray that the Lord would sustain us.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.680
But also, how are our children handling these things?
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:10.799
We have had to have conversations with them that I would have never wanted to at a young age.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:16.720
You know, they're now, my oldest turns 11 in a few days, and the younger turns nine in a few months.
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:29.359
And we've had some conversations about war, bombs, and they have in their vocabulary revolution as a you know, six-year-old and a five-year-old, and uh just things I I would want to protect them from.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:34.720
But also, it's okay that they know, even in the ways that they can, that the world is broken.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.039
But Christ is worthy, God is real, we are together.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:48.079
And so, again, we really did pray and considered is it better for us to maybe go to another part of the city or outside the city where we can still remain in the country?
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:53.920
And so there's those categories that we try to just be faithful for and ask that God would help us.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.400
As you mentioned, I I've given counsel to others.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.480
I think that's just a category that is overlooked and is so necessary.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:05.839
We in and of ourselves aren't able to make all these decisions or the best decisions on our own.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:11.599
And so we need to have trusted voices, pastoral counsel for those who are able to.
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:13.200
And then also to have it on the ground.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.799
I think that's another thing that I've found.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:21.039
So many choices are made by fears, also by wisdom, but that's not here.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.640
It's from an organization or an agency or a home church.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:30.400
And they're just they're making their decisions as well, not based on scripture or prayer, but news.
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.839
And and so again, I think there's just there are conversations that are important to be had.
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:38.720
Yeah, that's that's super helpful, Marwan.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:39.200
Thank you.
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:46.960
And even as you answer, we can sort of hear the weight of these conversations uh in your voice.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:20:02.880
As we think about the twin dangers of recklessness on one hand, and then sort of a comfort-driven pursuit of safety on the other, I'm wondering if you can just help us drill down a little bit.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:14.799
Think about maybe two faithful missionaries facing the same or very similar circumstances, and they make different decisions about staying or going.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:23.519
How should Christians think about others that make different sorts of decisions than they would?
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.599
How do we leave room for wisdom there?
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:40.079
How do we leave room for Christian freedom there rather than jumping to the conclusion that one is faithful and one is operating out of fear or a lack of faith in God's sovereignty, God's care?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.440
Can you give us some rails, give us some wisdom, some perspective?
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:50.559
You know, I I have this category, and over the years we have maybe deeper convictions or thoughts about different categories when it comes to missiology.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:21:02.640
And I think one of my defaults is that nearly every missionary who comes on the field loves Jesus and has given up a lot to be on the field, right?
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.799
Some give up more than others, sure, maybe.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:15.680
Those who travel with children, for example, whatever it might be, depending on which country, the background, how affluent your family is, every missionary has given things up for Jesus.
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:24.240
And so there is just a in my heart a default realization that these are brothers and sisters who love the Lord and who are trying to be faithful to follow.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:25.920
And so that's the question then.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.599
What does faithfulness look like?
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:36.880
These two missionaries, for example, both can be in the same place spiritually and on the field for the same amount of time and make different decisions for different reasons.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:54.000
What I have tried to kind of encourage those within our church who are serving as missionaries and just in other conversation that Sam and I have had, and just with the topic of missiology and risk and agency and these things is the importance of speaking to your pastors.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.640
The article, the one I wrote most recently about staying, brings scars.
00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.759
I referred to a couple who.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.640
Who were asking questions about how to make the decision?
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:04.720
Well, they decided to stay, and that was wonderful.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.079
And after some time, they decided to leave.
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.079
So they've actually left the Middle East now.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.200
I'm not encouraged or upset or worried or any of those things.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:18.240
I'm actually deeply encouraged that they brought me and the church into helping them make these decisions.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.400
More than what's right or wrong, I think we want to look at a category of faithfulness.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:24.000
Have you been faithful to pray?
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.079
Have you been faithful to really count the costs?
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:28.960
I think some of these conversations need to be had before.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:30.240
Do I go to Hawaii?
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:31.039
Do I go to Beirut?
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:32.480
I guess it's a toss-up.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:34.880
No, that's not the way you count the costs, right?
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:35.920
Like everyone needs Jesus.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:36.799
I'm just going to go wherever.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.720
No, like there are some real costs.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:44.240
And sometimes conversations need to be pressed before someone comes on the field.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:55.599
We all in our faith, whether missionaries or not, we all in our faith struggle with leaning into the flesh or letting fears lead us or being influenced by things of this world.
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:57.839
And so this is where counsel is so important.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:04.559
Another category that I've considered, this is both for the missionary and organizations that are here.
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:20.079
Even though it's okay to say we need to go and that has to be acceptable, I also want there to be a category to say if this organization, whoever they may be, keeps pulling their people out, or this missionary couple keeps leaving and coming back.
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:24.319
We're talking for 15 years of this organization's presence.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:30.160
Every time there's challenges, they pull people out and then they bring people back in.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:36.480
I remember speaking with one brother who was in the church and a faithful guy and really care about him, who's a friend of mine.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:42.079
I remember at one point, this was years before, so I think he's developed in his faith and ecclesiology and in things.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.000
But he said, Well, I'm gonna go.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.839
And after the destruction has happened, we'll come back and we'll help with the relief efforts.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:56.559
And I kind of just want to help him think through not only is it important to count the cost, but also we need to consider the consequence of our actions.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:58.480
Yeah, that's so helpful, brother.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:14.640
And I really appreciate what you say there about not just counting the cost of whether we go in the first place, but even organizations and missionaries needing to count the cost of both leaving and coming back and how many times it's wise to do that.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:23.920
You mentioned the article that you wrote, If staying brings scars, a pastor's reflection on remaining in Beirut, that is uh available at the Gospel Coalition.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.599
We'll post that article as well in the show notes.
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:39.920
Back when you were talking, Marwan, about your coming to a place like Beirut, you mentioned the importance of thinking through these things even before you came.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.960
And I think you just mentioned it again in your answer just now.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:55.920
Matt Rhodes in his new book, Missions and Suffering, he warns about the twin dangers of fearing missionary suffering on the one hand or romanticizing it on the other.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:04.880
And I think that people who are aspiring to become missionaries and thinking about suffering can fall into one of those two traps.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:13.440
And so I just really appreciate what you have to say about thinking about these things even before coming to the field.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:20.319
So, what are some conversations that a missionary or sending church and agency should have before a crisis comes?
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.640
What should prospective missionaries settle in their hearts before they even get on the plane to go overseas?
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:34.960
I go back to having categories and levels of thought because it is something that we all struggle with.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:39.680
It's easier to say something and believe something, but when you're confronted with it, there might be some changes.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:41.920
And so we want to hold things loosely.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:51.759
I do think it's important to have people, and this is where organizations can be very helpful or also can be dangerous, almost forcing you to think through things.
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.200
So we're actually we're not with an organization, not for better or for worse.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.160
It just the path that we followed didn't have us connect with anyone.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.000
We connected directly with the church in Dubai.
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:12.720
But one thing we did, and I was so thankful for it, and I've encouraged as many prospective missionaries to consider is to travel with their pastors before they get on the field as they consider.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:19.039
So we did a trip back in 2013, Marcy, myself, and our pastor from Arkansas, and we just kind of visited.
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:24.799
We visited Dubai for a few days, Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan, just to see what is happening on the ground.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:30.960
Again, I can say more about that, but I do remember one of the reasons we wanted our pastor to come along with us is because we wanted his voice.
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.200
We wanted him to see things that we're not able to see.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:39.599
We don't want to fall into the trap of romanticism or, oh, this place has need, and so we're gonna go there.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.200
Well, every place has need, right?
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.720
And so we wanted kind of a neutral and a wise voice.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:52.799
And I remember Bobby, as we were leaning and starting to decide that Lebanon was where we wanted to go, he just wanted to make sure that we were clear about that.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.799
And he just even compared, you know, church in Lebanon will not look like it did in Dubai.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.799
He just said that to us a few times, just so we don't have the wrong view.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:05.920
And so I think there is a sense of having other voices that are trusted, who know you.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.240
You're you're not sending yourself, the church sends you.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:13.519
And so, in part, that could look like your pastor is being involved in those steps of discerning where to go.
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:15.119
There is need everywhere.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:16.880
And so you can't just do need.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.559
There are opportunities everywhere, but you might not be the best fit everywhere.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:26.079
And so I think there are categories or kind of a rubric to work through, and organizations or churches can help.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.039
That's helpful.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:27.759
That's helpful.
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:42.880
Uh Marwan, you've lived through enough difficulty as you're telling us about today, to know that suffering is not just a theological category, it's also the lived experience of real people, of real Christians.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:57.759
Uh I wonder if you could just speak for a moment to the way that God has used suffering in your own life personally, but also in the life of City Bible Church there in Beirut.
00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:58.880
Yeah.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:07.039
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:10.000
Um I don't have any tattoos, Sam.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:10.400
Do you?
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:12.079
Is that something that we do share or don't share?
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:13.119
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:13.279
Okay.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:14.720
Don't have tattoos.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:16.319
I've thought about getting one.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:17.839
Um yeah.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:28.799
With uh the one that I've actually thought about is uh a tattoo of the uh numeric code that I was given for the country that we were forced to leave.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:29.279
Ah, okay.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.279
I thought about getting it right there on my arm.
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:32.160
But interesting, yeah.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.440
Um but my resistance to getting tattoos has to this point prevailed.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:35.839
Good.
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:37.839
Keep keep keep on with that, and I and I will too.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:44.000
And again, I I say that just because I mean that is just stayed me, and I've reflected on it so much.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:55.519
Paul, again, he has his CV written in the Bible of sufferings, and and so we can look at it, and he says it's not worth comparing.
00:28:55.519 --> 00:29:00.480
That is a different vision of God than most of us have.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:01.599
It's not what I have.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:09.200
And yet I'm trying to just have such a clear expectation of the glory that awaits us.
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.839
Suffering is the way of the cross, right?
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.160
I mean, it's it's what we've seen, it's what have been modeled.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:19.920
I think we need to have a biblical and deep definition of suffering.
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:26.319
Its purposes, that's right, that suffering is never for nothing, that God works through all things for his glory and for our good.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:38.480
We also need to have uh clarity in what we understand to be suffering and what is worthy of our sufferings and challenges and all these things, because the world is going to continually tell us that it's not worth it.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:39.759
I don't know who you're referring to.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:48.960
I'm actually not on X anymore, but just to kind of say it's what did you say, Sam, abdicating responsibility of a father to go into difficult places?
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:50.240
Something along those lines, yeah.
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:59.200
Again, I don't know the context of those things, but just to be able to say that blanketly, I think is not looking fully at the benefits of suffering.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:05.039
I've written a couple of different creeds over the years or kind of just little phrases that have helped me and I think have served the church.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:17.440
But as we look at the last chapters of the Bible and to look forward to a city that will need no sun because the glory of God will illuminate it.
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:27.279
Well, for people who don't have 24-hour electricity, every time the electricity turns off on us, we are able to remember that one day we don't need electricity.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:31.440
And so that suffering helps us to fix our eyes a bit more on Christ.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.640
Or a place where you can't drink the water or there's not enough water.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.680
And often we uh we're worried if there will be enough drinking water, or a building doesn't have water.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:48.880
Well, we remember that there will be a city coming where there'll be a river flowing and trees that bear fruit all year round.
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:52.799
So suffering helps us to hold on to what matters.
00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:07.759
Yeah, you know, a passage that I've been turning over in my mind for the better part of a year is Paul's words in Colossians chapter one, where he says, Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I'm filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:28.799
That is the church of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for the ages and generations, but now revealed to his saints, to them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ's in you, the hope of glory.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:32:11.359
I think one of the great benefits of suffering, and what you were just describing, what Paul identifies there, when he's able to say that he rejoices in his suffering is the advance of the gospel among the Gentiles, the advance of the gospel among all nations, that God appoints missionary suffering, and of course, in this case Paul's, but even as he is filling up what's lacking in Christ's afflictions, which all who suffer for Christ Jesus since the first century onward, that God has intentionally used that to see the advance of the gospel among all peoples and places.
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:17.920
And in order that at verse 28, Paul says that he may present everyone mature in Christ.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:32.720
It's just part of the equation, it's part of what goes with the missionary task is the expectation of suffering and that God will, in his economy, use that suffering to bring about his purposes in the world to see if people reconcile for himself.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:41.599
And I think about that, and boy, it really puts our suffering in perspective when we consider that as one of its glorious benefits.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:42.079
Amen.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:46.160
Yeah, I think of the countless conversations I've had over the years.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.319
People said, wait, you can leave.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.079
Because many want to leave, but they can't.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:51.200
Wait, you can leave?
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:52.720
You have an American passport.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:53.519
Why are you here?
00:32:53.519 --> 00:33:05.599
And there's just a sense of opportunity to share, when I'm able to share my heart, that I have hope for this city because I know what Christ has done for me and I know what he can do.
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.240
But also my hope is not in this city, right?
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:19.039
We just started the book of Joshua, so I'm reflecting on Hebrews and other places, but just you know, where the author writes, thinking of Abraham, who was looking forward to not just Abraham but the patriarchs, looking forward to a city that has foundations.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.319
Whose architect and builder is God.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:28.240
We we can have hope for this city because our hope is grounded in the city to come.
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.079
And even with suffering, we're reminded that our God is good, isn't he?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:38.559
He's kind, he's merciful, he will keep us through these things and he will accomplish his purposes through us.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.799
There's a hope that he is faithful in in every way.
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:51.599
And I think the more we're able to hold on to that hope, the faster we run, the more endurance we have, the more joy and eagerness for his glory.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:34:01.200
Yeah, in your article that we've already referenced, you talk about the fruit that has come among unbelievers because you've stayed.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:10.239
And people that have no categories for hope amidst suffering are able to see Christian hope that's found even in and through suffering.
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.719
So that's very helpful for us.
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:25.920
I appreciated a few minutes ago, Marwan, you sort of had a prophetic word to sending agencies, the whole pulling people out, sending them back, and the problems that come because of that.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:32.320
But maybe we could sort of go positive as we think about sending churches and sending organizations.
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:48.159
I'm just curious if you have seen those that stand behind missionaries, care for them well amidst suffering and loss and war and the rumble, as you said a couple of times.
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:57.199
What can sending churches, sending organizations do well that will help sustain and strengthen the work of cross-cultural missionaries?
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:58.800
Yeah, that's good.
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:09.679
I think sending organizations are like churches, are like believers are going to be some are going to be healthier than others, some are gonna understand things or prioritize things over others, and sometimes that's for better or for worse.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.880
I just think the mission is the church.
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.239
And so the church needs to be central across the board.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:34.639
One example that I'm thinking of as I say that is that I've had members in our church, or those who are kind of regular attenders, even who are missionaries, who their churches and their sending organizations have spoken to us to kind of get a word from the ground, if you will.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:38.880
And others have never once reached out or connected.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:46.159
I think there's just a big difference there, the role of the local church in the life of the believer and the life of the missionary, because the missionary is a believer first.
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:53.599
And I think some organizations understand that more than others, while others kind of overstep their position.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.880
Again, I'm sympathetic.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:01.360
I understand the risk, I understand the liability, I understand all the things that I think organizations are thinking of.
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:09.039
But I think it's just important for both the missionary and the agency not to sidestep the church on the on the field or at home.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.559
And again, I think there's a there's a way for the relationship to be strengthened.
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:18.960
There have been many times where I've seen a brother or sister who want to stay, but they're told by the organization they have to leave.
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:23.679
That might be a good decision, but it shouldn't be made in isolation.
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.239
It should involve others, the local church, and as I've come to see it.
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:36.800
I think there is also a sense of rightly encouraging believers to count the cost that I've seen, and I hope to see more.
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:46.400
What I mean by that is whether it's the organization or the sending church or even families that are sometimes kind of projecting their fears and their worries.
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:47.360
And have you thought about this?
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.079
Have you thought about that?
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:53.280
It's like, yes, you they have thought about what happens at the airport is struck and you can't fly out.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:55.199
Have you thought about what happens if there's no water?
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.639
Yes, we've thought about these things.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:05.440
And and yet what we need help thinking of is eternal truth and to be encouraged and strengthened as opposed to kind of casting down.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.880
So I think I've also seen organizations cast fear more than strength and say, we're with you.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:11.599
What do you need?
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:13.280
How can we come alongside you?
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:14.960
Do you feel like you need to leave?
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:16.480
I think it can just be done.
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.440
Both organizations, the churches, to individuals, we can lean to fear more than faith.
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:28.719
And I think we, as believers, are called to encourage each other and strengthen each other towards godly living and faithfulness to Christ.
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:30.000
Yeah, that's good.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:37.119
Um, Marwan, I wonder if for the last couple of minutes you could talk about your experience partnering with missionaries on the field.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:41.039
You're working on a book that describes the church-centered missionary, is that right?
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:42.159
Yes, that's right.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:47.440
Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about the sorts of missionaries that you hope to partner with on the field.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.480
And if you could share any examples of some, maybe just a real quick story to close out.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:54.639
Names change for security, of course.
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:58.880
Any particular qualities that make someone an effective partner in a place like Lebanon?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:05.599
Yeah, I think I've come to see, and I'll just kind of speak more generally than specific people.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:18.320
Um I think there just is a difference with someone who I love Jesus and I came to faith earlier this year, and I just want to go.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.039
And then they they go, and that's wonderful, right?
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:23.039
Again, like there's that default that I referred to before.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:30.719
Like people are counting the cost uh as much as they're able to, but they've certainly given things up to go into the world for the sake of the gospel.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:45.360
But there's a difference between that believer and the believer who not only loves Jesus but loves his word and loves the church and understands the role of the local church in their life.
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.280
That's the story for Marcy and I.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.480
We kind of had, like I mentioned, this general call to go.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:39:09.119
But it was our time in that church in Arkansas that we were a part of a church that was faithfully and regularly preaching the scriptures, it was expensive preaching, the community was growing and understanding the role and responsibility they had for one another.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:14.320
But we saw our lives and our love for Christ and for his church grow.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:26.239
And we said, But this is what we want to see, this is what we want to do, this is how Christ is glorified, this is how believers not only come to faith, but grow in their faith.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:38.559
And so there's a difference of working with a missionary who has been transformed by the church and loves the church, not just generally loves Jesus and wants to share their beliefs.
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:39.199
Right?
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:53.920
Both of those are brothers and both of those are our sisters, and we will spend eternity together, but our interaction with the one who has had experience within the church will just bear fruit in a way that we need, and it's a joy to labor together with those.
00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:05.440
And just recognizes the role of the church in the work that that's God's appointed means to see the gospel advance among all peoples.
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:06.159
Right.
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:06.559
Yeah.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:07.280
Amen.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.400
Amen.
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.039
Marwan, this has been challenging and edifying.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.639
Thank you so much for being with us today.
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:20.480
To our listeners, we'd love to hear from you as well.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:26.559
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00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:27.519
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00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:32.480
You can find us on Instagram or at our website, missioeclesia.org.
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:36.239
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00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:44.559
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