Bianca: ⁓ So excited for today's conversation, and I think it would be amazing to get into the fourth trimester. ⁓ Not just because I'm very much in it right now.
Rose: Hello.
Bianca: But because there's so much that we don't understand or know enough about in terms of brain changes and what us women go through. So let's talk about the fourth trimester, postpartum land.
Rose: so excited to get into this one. I think what's fascinating is we give women nine months to prepare for birth. We give them almost nothing to prepare for who they become. Birth is not the finish line, it is the opening chapter and today we're going to talk about the neuroscience that every new mum deserves to know about the fourth trimester.
Rose Soffel: But we think it's something else entirely, a capability shift, and we think it's time to name it and to talk about it properly. I'm Rose, coach, consultant and researcher completing a Masters in Organisational Psychology.
Bianca: I heard a quote recently that said, surrender to the river of motherhood and let yourself dissolve for a little while. And I'm gonna bring that energy into this episode because this episode and this conversation is the one that I wish somebody had given me a few weeks ago. There have been so many moments that we'll get into where I've looked in the mirror and I've thought, Who am I now?
Rose Soffel: using research, lived experience and honest conversations about what sustainable high performance actually looks like when your identity is shifting.
Bianca: Where am I now? Why do I feel so unlike myself? And I've had so many worries about my emotions being bigger than they used to be. I felt desperately vulnerable at times. I felt like my body in its recovery goes forwards and then goes backwards. And honestly, a recurring question for me is am I just not coping very well? You know, this this is a big time of change, I know. And that quote about Just going into the rip river of motherhood and going with it and letting it carry you a little bit is one that I'm holding on to because I've had a lot of times in this fourth trimester where I've wrestled with it and I've not been quite sure where I'm at and how I'm honestly doing.
Rose: So before we get into this, first of all, I just wanna say like those experiences are not signs that you are not coping or you're failing. This is matrescence These are the signs that your brain is adapting. The biggest myth I think about the fourth trimester is that it's something your baby goes through. It's something both of you go through. And while your baby learns to live outside your body, your brain is also learning to live around theirs.
Bianca: And I think that we have to view this time as an act of becoming. You know, I know that I'm completely changed. My perspective on the world will never be the same again. Why do I still put so much pressure on myself? You know, why is it that we expect ourselves, we've talked about it before, to bounce back, but why don't we honor this time? You know, and I think that as somebody who really longed to embrace motherhood, ⁓ Maybe it's wrong of us to have a child and then expect to get back to ourselves as soon as possible. Instead, I think that we need to let it change us and know that it's meant to change us and flip that narrative to it being something more positive and going with those changes. So there's a lot neurologically that's going on that I'm aware of and some that I'm not aware of. And what I thought would be helpful for this episode is for us to. Just talk through some of the changes that new mums may be experiencing and then give them more information about why they're experiencing it because knowledge is power, we go back to this again and again, and I think it really, really helps to know it's not a you thing, it's a natural thing. So I would like to start with something that I experience every day, which is that the world feels like the noise has been turned up. Everything feels so loud. So We know that there's increased hypervigilance, makes sense biologically. We are programmed to hear our child and respond as quickly as possible. And I I always think of like this wolf in a cave for some reason. I don't know why that's always like my visualization of it, but I think of him as like my little cub and that I'm protecting him at all times. But it does mean that I'm completely wired as a human being. And it can be anything, it could be his cry. It could be like a strange noise in the night, like the other night, I think it was about 2 a.m. And I think I do think the football had been on. There was a car with like one of those exhausts that was like boom-boom boom and I thought it was an intruder. That kind of level of, ⁓ my God, somebody's coming in the house. I've got to protect him. ⁓ people's opinions, you know, when you're particularly sleep-deprived and someone just has a helpful opinion of, you know what, you could hold him like this, or like last night, for example, my friend posted a picture of me holding my son, and he was really relaxed.
Rose: you
Bianca: And his head was like this. And my partner was like, ⁓ it's such a cute picture, but look at his head. And like my default response was, How dare you criticize my parenting? Like all he was saying was, Look at his head, his head looks really floppy like that. And I'm like, How dare you? You know, that is not a grounded, measured response to that comment, but that's what I mean by the noise being turned up. ⁓ and I used to think that.
Rose Soffel: Thank you all for joining today.
Bianca: If you've taken something from this episode, we'd be so grateful if you shared it with a friend.
Rose Soffel: We'd also love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn. And please share your questions, comments and experiences. This is a conversation we want to build together.
Bianca: I was just like becoming really anxious, but actually the more that I understand it, it's a natural thing that my nervous system feels like it's on high alert because it is. Until next time. the difficulty is we're talking about like it natural, the wolf, the cave, etc. But we're actually operating ⁓ in a modern day context. So my brain's turned up for beautiful, like protective piece, ⁓ but then ⁓ The world keeps spinning, social media keeps going, notifications keep coming in, and everything else in like modern society, in our modern way of living, doesn't feel conducive with that. So with all this in mind, for anyone that's struggling with this, because I definitely have, and this, ⁓ you know, my son is seven weeks old today. It's it's new. What would you have us know about what's happening to our brains? ⁓
Rose: So this is a huge part of matrescence and what you're describing is your brain turning the volume up on the threat and emotion. And this is on purpose because you have someone to protect now. And it's not that the world has got more dangerous, but your brain has evolved for your baby, not from the notifications. Often it can't decipher the difference between the two. A threat is a threat as far as your brain is concerned. And it's heightened that threat response is heightened because you have this this much bigger piece to protect than you did before. So that's what you're describing there. And yeah, it is noisy, but It's normal. There's nothing, I think ⁓ one key thing say here is that there's nothing wrong with you. That this is perfectly natural.
Bianca: Mm.
Rose: and ⁓ even something like intrusive thoughts. So ⁓ most women report intrusive thoughts in their first weeks and months of raising their baby, particularly their first ⁓ And that isn't that you're to do something harmful to your child. That is you are thinking about... all of the awful possibilities that could potentially happen. So you are prepared enough to protect your baby against them. And I think even something as simple as that, if that was normalized, if we spoke about that more and gave women a clearer understanding of you're not going to put your baby in the washing machine. I know that you think that, but that is not something that's going to happen. You are just thinking of every possible worst scenario in your home because everything is a threat now. Your threat response is completely turned up and I just want to take a moment to say there's nothing wrong with for going through this and feeling that heightened threat response and feeling those intrusive thoughts because they happen to everyone. I think the problem is as a society, we don't talk about it. So women feel like there's something wrong with them and that they're doing something that they shouldn't be.
Bianca: I think that so much of this goes back to the pressure that we put on mothers and like this mother archetype to be completely loving, completely caring, devoted, and we don't allow space for the other complex emotions that naturally come up, as you say. That point about intrusive thoughts is so liberating to hear, actually, because I can tell you that stairs are no longer stairs in my house. Sharp edges of things are no longer sharp edges. And you do look at everything through a new lens, and then you Think, God, I really must be sleep-deprived to be having these kinds of thoughts. Where is this going? And he could just fall down here. And you really can get in like a mind fuck about that. So thank you for saying that. It's such an important point. And I think this leads onto how our overall stress systems are as I understand it completely recalibrating. And that point about like the photo and my partner making that comment, that is one of like countless little interactions that I've had where on these days where I feel like I'm running on nothing, everything is landing so much harder than it normally would. And small things are just tipping me over in ways that they never would have done before. There's a fragility to it and it is really easy to think, God I'm so fragile. I'm only seven weeks in, for example. How am I gonna do the next 18 years? You know, all of these thoughts, it you can it really can get to you. And I think what I have to remind myself of is that sleep deprivation. I've read this amazing quote that basically said that sleep deprivation in this early kind of fourth trimester postpartum period with a newborn. Is more severe than military training, sleep deprivation, and sleep torture.
Rose: Yeah, mean, broken sleep does real things to your brain. There is a reason why they use it as a form of torture. And when sleep is the part that keeps your lid on the big reactions gets much quieter. And the part that fires off the emotions gets louder. you'll know that anytime that you're sleep deprived, you're far more sensitive, you're far more reactive than you would be ⁓ a day where you've had full sleep. things feel so much bigger. And this is a biologically sensitized state, not an emotional failure. I just want to make that really clear. And you're not overreacting and you're not being overly fragile, but it is a really sensitive time you're in at the moment. And your brain is running on like a completely new setting. So want to reinforce that it's nothing you're doing wrong. it's like you're driving a completely new car you don't even know how to use the controls because they're completely different from your old one.
Bianca: Yeah, I keep using a similar analogy, which is it's like visiting a country you've never been to before. You don't have an itinerary. You have an idea of what it might be like and what it might feel like to be there, but actually everything is different. The language is different, the food is different, the culture's different. And in this instance, there's no Google Maps, there's no GPT to plan a lovely itinerary. You've got to, you're just Plonked in this new country and you've got to figure it out for yourself. And I don't think we give enough grace to that. And if you were to watch a loved one go through this, you would have so much compassion. And yet it's so difficult to apply that to ourselves. ⁓ but it what's interesting is that when I am in that sleep-depri-deprived state or feeling overly stressed, the moment that I hold him. I feel like all of that goes out the window in a sense. And we get into this like co-regulation process. I hold him, I settle, like my cortisol levels drop, he settles too. ⁓ Yeah, there is almost like a codependency piece here that I'm quite like aware of, but also really enjoying. So that's the flip side of it. Yes, there's such a dependency for both of you in a way, but it's also like the most beautiful, kind of closest I've ever felt to another being. It's interesting.
Rose: I mean, you do have a shared nervous system at the moment. So a baby's heart rate and stress hormones shift in response to your tone and your touch. In those early weeks, there isn't just one nervous system and then another, like it's not like yours and then your son's, like you're sharing one at the moment. And the calm is transmitted and not taught. And I know we touched on this briefly when we spoke with Gemma around breathing and like the importance of breath. and taking a moment to kind of recalibrate your nervous system. And that's because you're one,
Bianca: Yeah, that's so beautiful and Of course, we lived together for nine months in my body. And I've heard similar things around how our babies as newborns, they actually don't know that we are two beings now, that we are two organisms. So that's a beautiful thing, but I will also say that it can add pressure on us as mothers because we feel like we have to do everything. We have to be there. Nobody else can regulate them. Nobody else can like support them in the way that we can. So great responsibility comes great pressure and I do feel this sense of it's so beautiful to be in like our newborn bubble, but I'm also ⁓ concerned about gonna happen when we come out of it. But I know we'll get on to more of that later. ⁓ Just something on my mind that anyone that's living through this I know can relate to.
Rose: So we've just spoken about how broken sleep does real things to your brain. I kind of want to talk a bit about crying and what that does to your nervous system as well. How do you find your body reacts when he cries?
Bianca: I completely tense up still. And and I think this is linked to hyper-perfectionism and overachievement generally. I view it as a failing. If he's crying, I feel so on edge. I also find myself taking a huge amount of gratification and I suppose validation when people tell me that he is so calm and that he's not crying. I'm like, yes. What an achievement because in in some way I'm linking that to my self-worth, which is quite interesting. Psychoanalyse that one. But when he's crying and crying and like nothing's quite working, particularly when he has wind, like mum's listening will know, like if at this age their digestive systems are so immature and they're so not developed that sometimes you can do everything and they just have to cry it out. ⁓ but of course for me still It I'd be lying if I didn't say that that voice of what am I doing wrong isn't really loud at the same time. And I think that crying is interesting because if you are mentally associating that with like failure, you are on a slippery slope of complete self-deprecation. And so I'm trying to get myself away from that and trying to remind myself how normal it is, how it's his only way of communicating right now. But look, it's difficult. It's really, really tough. And there is a judgment piece that you apply to yourself as a mother, whether it's just you and your baby at home or whether you're out in public. I've had some big crying fit meltdown things in public. And I also, yesterday I was in the park, and the one that was crying wasn't him, it was me. Because somebody, it was such a simple thing. Someone had said, I was on my own with him, someone had said that I'd left my umbrella behind.
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: I was like, I haven't left my umbrella. I don't have my umbrella. And this guy was really insistent, like, no, you've left your umbrella. I'm like, okay, you can go get it if you want. And he was so like nice to me about it. But you know, when someone's just like really like kind and gentle with you and you're already feeling a bit shaky, I just cried behind my sunglasses. So basically the reason I'm sharing that story is to say that everybody's crying. It's not just my baby, it's me too. So a lot of crying going on, but it is really hard when they are having that crying fit and you just can't see. them and you do feel like the worst moment in the world, it's difficult.
Rose: And I think this is where things like the crying curve can be quite unhelpful. So crying curve, if you've not heard of it, shows that crying tends to climb from around two weeks and peaks at six to eight weeks, which is exactly when you're most sleep deprived and your hormones are still resettling. It is by far the hardest baby phase because lands on top of the mom being most depleted. So parents get showing this lovely, neat little curve that's supposed to sharpen. you're in that six eight week period now where people are saying, you should settle. ⁓ And sometimes when it stays heavier for then people tell you, you are starting to compare and feel like you've failed. And I just think that that tidy little curve also looks lovely on a graph. And yes, it would be ideal if that happened and can be helpful because it can help you understand that, the end is near. ⁓ But actually to put specific timelines around it, every baby is different, every human is different, every mom is different, every set of parents is different. And I just think that whilst it's really good to have the kind of understanding and the research, really sticking to it religiously can be quite unhelpful.
Bianca: These charts, I wasn't aware of that curve, but I've seen other comparable things of expect this at this point, your baby should now be doing this. My big one is actually around sleep, like seeing I'm targeted with so much stuff at the moment about sleep training manuals, this, and by eight weeks your baby should be doing that, and the pressure is crazy. I just think that as you say, while data can be indicative of where things might go. Holding yourself to those standards is not something that mothers need. We already have too many milestones and too many points of comparisons in our minds to put another thing on how your baby should be reacting and crying at specific timestamps. I mean, for starters, an eight-week-old baby is not the same dependent on when they're born. So you might have had your baby at 37 weeks, I had mine at nearly 41. That's a different developmental stage. And we treat it as all these babies starting at the same point in that race doesn't work like that. Second, we all have different personalities. Third, I sent you a picture yesterday of my son smiling and looking so happy, but you've just seen him on video before we started recording, crying because he was hungry. So it changes like the wind. And I just think that these Data points, although helpful to give an idea as you say, it can be really, really that just another layer of pressure that new mums do not need. So my advice here is when you hear these things, yep, nod, say, okay, I know that overall there's a trend, but it's about your baby's trend and you know your child as well. You know your child far better than any graph or chart or data point. So trust your intuition with it. And yes, of course it's gonna get easier, but
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: You're only on your own timeline. And as with everything in life, whether you're a new parent or not, the race is never against anyone else, it's against ourselves and with ourselves. So yeah, I think that's a really important thing that I'm gonna keep reflecting on when I keep getting getting targeted with stuff and feeling that massive pressure.
Rose: Yeah, you know, it's one of my favorite phrases, but comparison is the thief of joy. Like you have so much going on in your brain. Literally it's physically changing. It's reshaping. It's rewiring. You don't need to add comparison to what you should be doing, what, you know, other people are doing. That is just an additional mental load that new moms do not need. So I'll bring that saying out again, because it's so important that every
Bianca: It is.
Rose: Everyone just has to do what is right for them and their family. Like you said, intuition is usually the strongest indicator of what is right for you, your family and your baby.
Bianca: And we don't need anything else to mentally carry. Like the number of open tabs in my brain right now is unprecedented. We're tracking feeds, nappies, sleep, we're pumping, we're making sure we've drunk enough water, we're making sure the bottles are ready, whether we have enough muslins for tomorrow. Our brains are so full, and you're still expected to also be like a functioning member of society.
Rose: people see the baby you're carrying, but they don't see the hundreds of invisible, I'd say thousands of invisible thoughts that you're carrying with him. And that's not just physical labor, that is cognitive labor. And it's real work, even though nobody can see it. So you're holding all of these tabs, who else in your house is holding any right now?
Bianca: Nobody on this scale, that's the truth. I have a patchwork village, as we've spoken about in a previous episode, one of my favorites, I ⁓ helped my mum, my partner's mum, my partner when he comes home from work. ⁓ But if you think about it, I'm the only constant. So what that means is I've got the schedule in my head at all times. I can debrief with them and say, this is what has happened just now, he needs this, but no one else has that consistency and nobody else is holding up the sky with their hands, as they say. And
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: I just have a lot more pattern recognition with him because I see him all the time. And I'm the only one that can breastfeed. So there's also that element to it if you do choose to breastfeed. People can do everything else, but no one is holding on to it or as close to it or the through line with it as I am as the mother. And that is very difficult. I think that. I do feel guilty sometimes for needing help. I feel guilty for feeling tired, guilty for not being able to do everything that I used to do. Today I went to the gym for the first time. I wasn't able to do much, so I'm still recovering from my C-section. But even that I felt a little bit like, ⁓ okay, I'm guilty if I'm not doing it. I'm guilty if I am doing it. Can't really win.
Rose: And a term, mum guilt is something we've actually not spoken about in full detail yet. And I know that we should do a full episode on mum guilt. It's so important, but what do you think is driving that guilt? Who are you feeling guilty for?
Bianca: We must. I think it's a combination of things. Firstly, I've never been off work for this period of time. So because I'm not working, I immediately transfer probably, this is just like life psychoanalysis. I probably transfer the excitations that I place myself professionally onto my role as a mother. But of course, it's very different. Like, yes, it's all work, so to speak, but it's completely different.
Rose: Mm.
Bianca: And there's no performance review for being a mother. There's no framework of how well am I doing. No, like it's so so different. So probably like that conditioning, that kind of capitalistic career conditioning that I've had that's been my norm for such a long time. I think I also just really want to do well by him. And it's such a cruel part of design, isn't it? The natural design of we want to do so well for our babies, for our newborns, and we so don't. Don't feel well in ourselves because we are sleep-deprived, because we're doing everything for the first time, and because also we're lonely at times. You know, support systems aren't what they were, as we've said before. I think that there's just a lot of layers to it, and we put pressure on ourselves. And like anyone doing anything for the first time, it's tricky, but this is the most important work of my life. So of course it feels high stakes.
Rose: Mm. And we've, again, we've spoken about this before, but human moms were never meant to do this solo. So our brains evolved from expecting a whole group of adults to raise babies together to have this village. So I would offer your guilt time, rather than asking what's wrong with me, maybe try and reframing as what was my brain expecting? And that might help you reframe some of that guilt. what is... ⁓ so frustrating is we call mothers resilient. We say they're superheroes, but that can sometimes feel like an excuse for just simply allowing them to be unsupported. And I just want to say, not everyone listening to this will have help that they can reach for. we, again, we spoke about this in our village episode, but ⁓ you don't have a village there, that's not your failing. That is the system has just stopped showing up for mothers and the guilt should belong to that. not to the mother
Bianca: Yes, and this point about our brains evolving to raise a child in community and not having that community. Like that's quite tragic, really. The idea that this entire biological process is meant to happen with the village and the village is nowhere to be seen. And especially you mentioned like this being a particularly difficult phase, that kind of six to eight-week phase. The way that I'm viewing it for anyone listening in Case It's Helpful is that I'm taking it six weeks at a time. And viewing it in those increments. The first six weeks, you've got novelty, you've got adrenaline, you've got people wanting to come see the baby, it's happening, it's new. This next phase, very different, quieter, still sleep-deprived, less adrenaline, more running on complete fumes. And to do that without that support, yeah, it just feels really sad to me. And I think we have to, you know, you mentioned around like superheroes, resilient. Mothers do everything. That's also pressure. Because sometimes I don't feel like a superhero.
Rose: Mmm.
Bianca: Some days I'm barely getting by. Sometimes we haven't even made it downstairs before 11 because the routine's gone completely out the window. And I don't know, I know that those terms are meant to be in celebration of mothers, but I just question how much pressure they also put on us.
Rose: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I really love what you said there about taking it in six week increments of the time. Have you read the book, Tiny Experiments?
Bianca: No, I haven't.
Rose: It's such a good book, I'd recommend anyone to read it. And it's it's talks about effectively not trying to take on huge transformational changes, but breaking them down into tiny experiments. And I kind of hear that and what you're saying, like, let's see how this first six weeks goes. What's working well, what's not working well, what are we going to keep? What are we going to try again? And I think not giving yourself that pressure of, okay, this is what my plan is for my maternity leave, actually breaking it down to those smaller chunks probably makes it
Bianca: Yeah. Isn't it?
Rose: much more manageable for you, first of all, but also like gives you an opportunity to be reflective and do something different for the next six weeks.
Bianca: Yes, and this is where actually the corporate way of thinking is quite useful and applicable because having those check-ins, I'm not saying I'm doing like a quarterly business review, but I'm also not not saying that. I'm looking at those six weeks and I'm reviewing, and as you say, exactly that. I'm asking, okay, what worked, what didn't work, what helped, what didn't help? And if I look at each week at a time. I'm always thinking, what's the right balance of people helping versus one-on-one time? Versus now I'm starting to bring in like activities. Everything is a big experiment. First six weeks were about pure survival. Now there's a next six weeks of me is about getting out into the world. How much do we want to be out in the world? How much do we not? I'll report back, but yeah, I'm glad that resonates because it's been really helping me to view it like that. And I'll definitely check out that book
Rose: Mmm.
Bianca: know, I think week by week things are getting a little bit more confidence-building, but there are still days where I feel like I'm not getting it right at all. I might miss what he needs, or I just feel too tired ⁓ to be like the mum that I being at times.
Rose: I I understand that pressure and that, as you said, this is the most important work of your life. So I understand why you might feel like that, but babies don't need a mother who never misses them. They need one who comes back. The whole thing is built on repair and not perfection. So you get it wrong, you reconnect to the cycle. Actually, that cycle is actually how the bond ⁓ Secures, I guess there's a good way of putting it and every time you sue them you hold him you respond to him You're helping him lay those foundations those Consistent pieces of how he knows you'll show up of how he'll handle stress as he grows Which does sound like pressure, but I think it's actually the opposite I think it can be quite freeing What matters is consistency and not perfection, think is the most important thing to say there. And being responsive most of the time, not present every single second is so important. You've got to be able to step away. You've got to be able to hand him over and you're allowed an off day, but that bond is still there. It doesn't mean because you've taken time for yourself or because you've had a bit of an off day that that's broken. Like actually the reinforcement and the turning up again and being consistent, you know, falling off a horse and getting back on. is actually what builds the bond, strengthens it and holds it.
Bianca: There are so many lessons in that. And I I was just laughing to myself as you were talking because I was thinking, my God, my life's greatest teacher is seven weeks old. Like he is a prophet. So incredibly expansive for me. And the reason I say that is consistency, not perfection. If you think about that as a life lesson, that's applicable to everything. If you think about how much postpartum of the fourth trimester forces you to have to ask for help, for someone like me, that's a huge life lesson. I have a totally underutilized muscle when it comes to asking for help and admitting that I need help, and yet there's no choice in this period of time. So, yes, going back to this idea that actually what's shaping our baby's nervous systems is that consistency.
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: is really liberating because I've read research that shows it's actually not even just about it being you as the mum all the time. It can be other caregivers, other trusted caregivers, as long as his needs are being responded to.
Rose: Really?
Bianca: You're teaching him that he's safe. That doesn't always have to be you. So take a couple of hours, go do something for yourself. As long as you've got that care in place, and not everybody does, big disclaimer and caveat here. But if you do, don't beat yourself up for needing to do that because chances are it's actually better for you and your baby to go and do that, have a little break, come back if his needs are being met. And babies operate little newbones, especially they operate on cycles, right? As long as he's fed, he's changed, he's had a sleep, he's winded, he's responsible. To, they're okay. I love that. I think it's for me the most important point of the whole episode around just knowing that it's not a hundred percent your responsibility all the time. You don't have to be perfect, you just have to be consistent in it. I love that. I think overall I feel very, very different. But what I'm taking from this episode is I feel different because I am different. And I go back to that quote that I opened the episode with around surrendering to the river of motherhood. And I love this idea of allowing ourselves to dissolve for a little while, to rebuild, to repair. We're never going to get back to that old version of ourselves. We're meant to let this change us. So when my body doesn't feel familiar, when my emotions feel too big, yeah, I'm gonna go back to the part that's so important to me, which is I'm becoming right now. And that's a full sentence. I don't even need to complete that sentence. I don't need to say I'm becoming this, that, and the other. I'm in the becoming process. And I think that's really beautiful.
Rose: So yeah, because birth doesn't just make a baby, it also makes a mother and a mother who's genuinely transformed. I mean, we've spoken about this before through matressants, your brain, your identity, your priorities all shift and there is no going back to that old version of yourself. ⁓ And I think if there's one thing every new mom can take from today, not every new mom, every mom can take from today. It's this, it's the fourth trimester, isn't a recovery period from pregnancy. it is the beginning of one of the biggest transformations of your life. we celebrate every tiny milestone for our babies. ⁓ in those first 12 weeks, the first smile, the first stretch, the first time they lift their head, I think we should give mothers that same grace because the fourth trimester isn't just your baby's first chapter, it's yours as a new mother as well.
Bianca: That's so well said. And typically we would rebrand or retire a term. But actually, I think we should end this episode with a call to action instead, which is while you are celebrating your baby's milestones, please celebrate some for you too. That first walk that you take with the Pram on your own, that first coffee that you go and get, the first time that you just introduce a little bit more movement into your routine, that first night where your baby sleeps that little bit more than you expected. Celebrate those milestones. Milestones, celebrate asking for help. Celebrate putting your hand up and saying to your partner, I don't feel well, and not feeling that pressure to be this perfect, glamorous, amazing mum, but instead just real and raw and human because that is the most powerful thing of all. So we'd love to hear any milestones that people choose to celebrate. I'm going to be taking that forward and I will report back on what those small but actually massively significant milestones are for me. And we hope that this helps just to get into the fourth trimester and understand a bit more about what's happening in our brains and why it matters. So thank you Rose for everything you've shared.
Rose: And thank you for sharing your live living experience of it. know it's super helpful for everybody listening,
Rose: Hello.
Bianca: But because there's so much that we don't understand or know enough about in terms of brain changes and what us women go through. So let's talk about the fourth trimester, postpartum land.
Rose: so excited to get into this one. I think what's fascinating is we give women nine months to prepare for birth. We give them almost nothing to prepare for who they become. Birth is not the finish line, it is the opening chapter and today we're going to talk about the neuroscience that every new mum deserves to know about the fourth trimester.
Rose Soffel: But we think it's something else entirely, a capability shift, and we think it's time to name it and to talk about it properly. I'm Rose, coach, consultant and researcher completing a Masters in Organisational Psychology.
Bianca: I heard a quote recently that said, surrender to the river of motherhood and let yourself dissolve for a little while. And I'm gonna bring that energy into this episode because this episode and this conversation is the one that I wish somebody had given me a few weeks ago. There have been so many moments that we'll get into where I've looked in the mirror and I've thought, Who am I now?
Rose Soffel: using research, lived experience and honest conversations about what sustainable high performance actually looks like when your identity is shifting.
Bianca: Where am I now? Why do I feel so unlike myself? And I've had so many worries about my emotions being bigger than they used to be. I felt desperately vulnerable at times. I felt like my body in its recovery goes forwards and then goes backwards. And honestly, a recurring question for me is am I just not coping very well? You know, this this is a big time of change, I know. And that quote about Just going into the rip river of motherhood and going with it and letting it carry you a little bit is one that I'm holding on to because I've had a lot of times in this fourth trimester where I've wrestled with it and I've not been quite sure where I'm at and how I'm honestly doing.
Rose: So before we get into this, first of all, I just wanna say like those experiences are not signs that you are not coping or you're failing. This is matrescence These are the signs that your brain is adapting. The biggest myth I think about the fourth trimester is that it's something your baby goes through. It's something both of you go through. And while your baby learns to live outside your body, your brain is also learning to live around theirs.
Bianca: And I think that we have to view this time as an act of becoming. You know, I know that I'm completely changed. My perspective on the world will never be the same again. Why do I still put so much pressure on myself? You know, why is it that we expect ourselves, we've talked about it before, to bounce back, but why don't we honor this time? You know, and I think that as somebody who really longed to embrace motherhood, ⁓ Maybe it's wrong of us to have a child and then expect to get back to ourselves as soon as possible. Instead, I think that we need to let it change us and know that it's meant to change us and flip that narrative to it being something more positive and going with those changes. So there's a lot neurologically that's going on that I'm aware of and some that I'm not aware of. And what I thought would be helpful for this episode is for us to. Just talk through some of the changes that new mums may be experiencing and then give them more information about why they're experiencing it because knowledge is power, we go back to this again and again, and I think it really, really helps to know it's not a you thing, it's a natural thing. So I would like to start with something that I experience every day, which is that the world feels like the noise has been turned up. Everything feels so loud. So We know that there's increased hypervigilance, makes sense biologically. We are programmed to hear our child and respond as quickly as possible. And I I always think of like this wolf in a cave for some reason. I don't know why that's always like my visualization of it, but I think of him as like my little cub and that I'm protecting him at all times. But it does mean that I'm completely wired as a human being. And it can be anything, it could be his cry. It could be like a strange noise in the night, like the other night, I think it was about 2 a.m. And I think I do think the football had been on. There was a car with like one of those exhausts that was like boom-boom boom and I thought it was an intruder. That kind of level of, ⁓ my God, somebody's coming in the house. I've got to protect him. ⁓ people's opinions, you know, when you're particularly sleep-deprived and someone just has a helpful opinion of, you know what, you could hold him like this, or like last night, for example, my friend posted a picture of me holding my son, and he was really relaxed.
Rose: you
Bianca: And his head was like this. And my partner was like, ⁓ it's such a cute picture, but look at his head. And like my default response was, How dare you criticize my parenting? Like all he was saying was, Look at his head, his head looks really floppy like that. And I'm like, How dare you? You know, that is not a grounded, measured response to that comment, but that's what I mean by the noise being turned up. ⁓ and I used to think that.
Rose Soffel: Thank you all for joining today.
Bianca: If you've taken something from this episode, we'd be so grateful if you shared it with a friend.
Rose Soffel: We'd also love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn. And please share your questions, comments and experiences. This is a conversation we want to build together.
Bianca: I was just like becoming really anxious, but actually the more that I understand it, it's a natural thing that my nervous system feels like it's on high alert because it is. Until next time. the difficulty is we're talking about like it natural, the wolf, the cave, etc. But we're actually operating ⁓ in a modern day context. So my brain's turned up for beautiful, like protective piece, ⁓ but then ⁓ The world keeps spinning, social media keeps going, notifications keep coming in, and everything else in like modern society, in our modern way of living, doesn't feel conducive with that. So with all this in mind, for anyone that's struggling with this, because I definitely have, and this, ⁓ you know, my son is seven weeks old today. It's it's new. What would you have us know about what's happening to our brains? ⁓
Rose: So this is a huge part of matrescence and what you're describing is your brain turning the volume up on the threat and emotion. And this is on purpose because you have someone to protect now. And it's not that the world has got more dangerous, but your brain has evolved for your baby, not from the notifications. Often it can't decipher the difference between the two. A threat is a threat as far as your brain is concerned. And it's heightened that threat response is heightened because you have this this much bigger piece to protect than you did before. So that's what you're describing there. And yeah, it is noisy, but It's normal. There's nothing, I think ⁓ one key thing say here is that there's nothing wrong with you. That this is perfectly natural.
Bianca: Mm.
Rose: and ⁓ even something like intrusive thoughts. So ⁓ most women report intrusive thoughts in their first weeks and months of raising their baby, particularly their first ⁓ And that isn't that you're to do something harmful to your child. That is you are thinking about... all of the awful possibilities that could potentially happen. So you are prepared enough to protect your baby against them. And I think even something as simple as that, if that was normalized, if we spoke about that more and gave women a clearer understanding of you're not going to put your baby in the washing machine. I know that you think that, but that is not something that's going to happen. You are just thinking of every possible worst scenario in your home because everything is a threat now. Your threat response is completely turned up and I just want to take a moment to say there's nothing wrong with for going through this and feeling that heightened threat response and feeling those intrusive thoughts because they happen to everyone. I think the problem is as a society, we don't talk about it. So women feel like there's something wrong with them and that they're doing something that they shouldn't be.
Bianca: I think that so much of this goes back to the pressure that we put on mothers and like this mother archetype to be completely loving, completely caring, devoted, and we don't allow space for the other complex emotions that naturally come up, as you say. That point about intrusive thoughts is so liberating to hear, actually, because I can tell you that stairs are no longer stairs in my house. Sharp edges of things are no longer sharp edges. And you do look at everything through a new lens, and then you Think, God, I really must be sleep-deprived to be having these kinds of thoughts. Where is this going? And he could just fall down here. And you really can get in like a mind fuck about that. So thank you for saying that. It's such an important point. And I think this leads onto how our overall stress systems are as I understand it completely recalibrating. And that point about like the photo and my partner making that comment, that is one of like countless little interactions that I've had where on these days where I feel like I'm running on nothing, everything is landing so much harder than it normally would. And small things are just tipping me over in ways that they never would have done before. There's a fragility to it and it is really easy to think, God I'm so fragile. I'm only seven weeks in, for example. How am I gonna do the next 18 years? You know, all of these thoughts, it you can it really can get to you. And I think what I have to remind myself of is that sleep deprivation. I've read this amazing quote that basically said that sleep deprivation in this early kind of fourth trimester postpartum period with a newborn. Is more severe than military training, sleep deprivation, and sleep torture.
Rose: Yeah, mean, broken sleep does real things to your brain. There is a reason why they use it as a form of torture. And when sleep is the part that keeps your lid on the big reactions gets much quieter. And the part that fires off the emotions gets louder. you'll know that anytime that you're sleep deprived, you're far more sensitive, you're far more reactive than you would be ⁓ a day where you've had full sleep. things feel so much bigger. And this is a biologically sensitized state, not an emotional failure. I just want to make that really clear. And you're not overreacting and you're not being overly fragile, but it is a really sensitive time you're in at the moment. And your brain is running on like a completely new setting. So want to reinforce that it's nothing you're doing wrong. it's like you're driving a completely new car you don't even know how to use the controls because they're completely different from your old one.
Bianca: Yeah, I keep using a similar analogy, which is it's like visiting a country you've never been to before. You don't have an itinerary. You have an idea of what it might be like and what it might feel like to be there, but actually everything is different. The language is different, the food is different, the culture's different. And in this instance, there's no Google Maps, there's no GPT to plan a lovely itinerary. You've got to, you're just Plonked in this new country and you've got to figure it out for yourself. And I don't think we give enough grace to that. And if you were to watch a loved one go through this, you would have so much compassion. And yet it's so difficult to apply that to ourselves. ⁓ but it what's interesting is that when I am in that sleep-depri-deprived state or feeling overly stressed, the moment that I hold him. I feel like all of that goes out the window in a sense. And we get into this like co-regulation process. I hold him, I settle, like my cortisol levels drop, he settles too. ⁓ Yeah, there is almost like a codependency piece here that I'm quite like aware of, but also really enjoying. So that's the flip side of it. Yes, there's such a dependency for both of you in a way, but it's also like the most beautiful, kind of closest I've ever felt to another being. It's interesting.
Rose: I mean, you do have a shared nervous system at the moment. So a baby's heart rate and stress hormones shift in response to your tone and your touch. In those early weeks, there isn't just one nervous system and then another, like it's not like yours and then your son's, like you're sharing one at the moment. And the calm is transmitted and not taught. And I know we touched on this briefly when we spoke with Gemma around breathing and like the importance of breath. and taking a moment to kind of recalibrate your nervous system. And that's because you're one,
Bianca: Yeah, that's so beautiful and Of course, we lived together for nine months in my body. And I've heard similar things around how our babies as newborns, they actually don't know that we are two beings now, that we are two organisms. So that's a beautiful thing, but I will also say that it can add pressure on us as mothers because we feel like we have to do everything. We have to be there. Nobody else can regulate them. Nobody else can like support them in the way that we can. So great responsibility comes great pressure and I do feel this sense of it's so beautiful to be in like our newborn bubble, but I'm also ⁓ concerned about gonna happen when we come out of it. But I know we'll get on to more of that later. ⁓ Just something on my mind that anyone that's living through this I know can relate to.
Rose: So we've just spoken about how broken sleep does real things to your brain. I kind of want to talk a bit about crying and what that does to your nervous system as well. How do you find your body reacts when he cries?
Bianca: I completely tense up still. And and I think this is linked to hyper-perfectionism and overachievement generally. I view it as a failing. If he's crying, I feel so on edge. I also find myself taking a huge amount of gratification and I suppose validation when people tell me that he is so calm and that he's not crying. I'm like, yes. What an achievement because in in some way I'm linking that to my self-worth, which is quite interesting. Psychoanalyse that one. But when he's crying and crying and like nothing's quite working, particularly when he has wind, like mum's listening will know, like if at this age their digestive systems are so immature and they're so not developed that sometimes you can do everything and they just have to cry it out. ⁓ but of course for me still It I'd be lying if I didn't say that that voice of what am I doing wrong isn't really loud at the same time. And I think that crying is interesting because if you are mentally associating that with like failure, you are on a slippery slope of complete self-deprecation. And so I'm trying to get myself away from that and trying to remind myself how normal it is, how it's his only way of communicating right now. But look, it's difficult. It's really, really tough. And there is a judgment piece that you apply to yourself as a mother, whether it's just you and your baby at home or whether you're out in public. I've had some big crying fit meltdown things in public. And I also, yesterday I was in the park, and the one that was crying wasn't him, it was me. Because somebody, it was such a simple thing. Someone had said, I was on my own with him, someone had said that I'd left my umbrella behind.
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: I was like, I haven't left my umbrella. I don't have my umbrella. And this guy was really insistent, like, no, you've left your umbrella. I'm like, okay, you can go get it if you want. And he was so like nice to me about it. But you know, when someone's just like really like kind and gentle with you and you're already feeling a bit shaky, I just cried behind my sunglasses. So basically the reason I'm sharing that story is to say that everybody's crying. It's not just my baby, it's me too. So a lot of crying going on, but it is really hard when they are having that crying fit and you just can't see. them and you do feel like the worst moment in the world, it's difficult.
Rose: And I think this is where things like the crying curve can be quite unhelpful. So crying curve, if you've not heard of it, shows that crying tends to climb from around two weeks and peaks at six to eight weeks, which is exactly when you're most sleep deprived and your hormones are still resettling. It is by far the hardest baby phase because lands on top of the mom being most depleted. So parents get showing this lovely, neat little curve that's supposed to sharpen. you're in that six eight week period now where people are saying, you should settle. ⁓ And sometimes when it stays heavier for then people tell you, you are starting to compare and feel like you've failed. And I just think that that tidy little curve also looks lovely on a graph. And yes, it would be ideal if that happened and can be helpful because it can help you understand that, the end is near. ⁓ But actually to put specific timelines around it, every baby is different, every human is different, every mom is different, every set of parents is different. And I just think that whilst it's really good to have the kind of understanding and the research, really sticking to it religiously can be quite unhelpful.
Bianca: These charts, I wasn't aware of that curve, but I've seen other comparable things of expect this at this point, your baby should now be doing this. My big one is actually around sleep, like seeing I'm targeted with so much stuff at the moment about sleep training manuals, this, and by eight weeks your baby should be doing that, and the pressure is crazy. I just think that as you say, while data can be indicative of where things might go. Holding yourself to those standards is not something that mothers need. We already have too many milestones and too many points of comparisons in our minds to put another thing on how your baby should be reacting and crying at specific timestamps. I mean, for starters, an eight-week-old baby is not the same dependent on when they're born. So you might have had your baby at 37 weeks, I had mine at nearly 41. That's a different developmental stage. And we treat it as all these babies starting at the same point in that race doesn't work like that. Second, we all have different personalities. Third, I sent you a picture yesterday of my son smiling and looking so happy, but you've just seen him on video before we started recording, crying because he was hungry. So it changes like the wind. And I just think that these Data points, although helpful to give an idea as you say, it can be really, really that just another layer of pressure that new mums do not need. So my advice here is when you hear these things, yep, nod, say, okay, I know that overall there's a trend, but it's about your baby's trend and you know your child as well. You know your child far better than any graph or chart or data point. So trust your intuition with it. And yes, of course it's gonna get easier, but
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: You're only on your own timeline. And as with everything in life, whether you're a new parent or not, the race is never against anyone else, it's against ourselves and with ourselves. So yeah, I think that's a really important thing that I'm gonna keep reflecting on when I keep getting getting targeted with stuff and feeling that massive pressure.
Rose: Yeah, you know, it's one of my favorite phrases, but comparison is the thief of joy. Like you have so much going on in your brain. Literally it's physically changing. It's reshaping. It's rewiring. You don't need to add comparison to what you should be doing, what, you know, other people are doing. That is just an additional mental load that new moms do not need. So I'll bring that saying out again, because it's so important that every
Bianca: It is.
Rose: Everyone just has to do what is right for them and their family. Like you said, intuition is usually the strongest indicator of what is right for you, your family and your baby.
Bianca: And we don't need anything else to mentally carry. Like the number of open tabs in my brain right now is unprecedented. We're tracking feeds, nappies, sleep, we're pumping, we're making sure we've drunk enough water, we're making sure the bottles are ready, whether we have enough muslins for tomorrow. Our brains are so full, and you're still expected to also be like a functioning member of society.
Rose: people see the baby you're carrying, but they don't see the hundreds of invisible, I'd say thousands of invisible thoughts that you're carrying with him. And that's not just physical labor, that is cognitive labor. And it's real work, even though nobody can see it. So you're holding all of these tabs, who else in your house is holding any right now?
Bianca: Nobody on this scale, that's the truth. I have a patchwork village, as we've spoken about in a previous episode, one of my favorites, I ⁓ helped my mum, my partner's mum, my partner when he comes home from work. ⁓ But if you think about it, I'm the only constant. So what that means is I've got the schedule in my head at all times. I can debrief with them and say, this is what has happened just now, he needs this, but no one else has that consistency and nobody else is holding up the sky with their hands, as they say. And
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: I just have a lot more pattern recognition with him because I see him all the time. And I'm the only one that can breastfeed. So there's also that element to it if you do choose to breastfeed. People can do everything else, but no one is holding on to it or as close to it or the through line with it as I am as the mother. And that is very difficult. I think that. I do feel guilty sometimes for needing help. I feel guilty for feeling tired, guilty for not being able to do everything that I used to do. Today I went to the gym for the first time. I wasn't able to do much, so I'm still recovering from my C-section. But even that I felt a little bit like, ⁓ okay, I'm guilty if I'm not doing it. I'm guilty if I am doing it. Can't really win.
Rose: And a term, mum guilt is something we've actually not spoken about in full detail yet. And I know that we should do a full episode on mum guilt. It's so important, but what do you think is driving that guilt? Who are you feeling guilty for?
Bianca: We must. I think it's a combination of things. Firstly, I've never been off work for this period of time. So because I'm not working, I immediately transfer probably, this is just like life psychoanalysis. I probably transfer the excitations that I place myself professionally onto my role as a mother. But of course, it's very different. Like, yes, it's all work, so to speak, but it's completely different.
Rose: Mm.
Bianca: And there's no performance review for being a mother. There's no framework of how well am I doing. No, like it's so so different. So probably like that conditioning, that kind of capitalistic career conditioning that I've had that's been my norm for such a long time. I think I also just really want to do well by him. And it's such a cruel part of design, isn't it? The natural design of we want to do so well for our babies, for our newborns, and we so don't. Don't feel well in ourselves because we are sleep-deprived, because we're doing everything for the first time, and because also we're lonely at times. You know, support systems aren't what they were, as we've said before. I think that there's just a lot of layers to it, and we put pressure on ourselves. And like anyone doing anything for the first time, it's tricky, but this is the most important work of my life. So of course it feels high stakes.
Rose: Mm. And we've, again, we've spoken about this before, but human moms were never meant to do this solo. So our brains evolved from expecting a whole group of adults to raise babies together to have this village. So I would offer your guilt time, rather than asking what's wrong with me, maybe try and reframing as what was my brain expecting? And that might help you reframe some of that guilt. what is... ⁓ so frustrating is we call mothers resilient. We say they're superheroes, but that can sometimes feel like an excuse for just simply allowing them to be unsupported. And I just want to say, not everyone listening to this will have help that they can reach for. we, again, we spoke about this in our village episode, but ⁓ you don't have a village there, that's not your failing. That is the system has just stopped showing up for mothers and the guilt should belong to that. not to the mother
Bianca: Yes, and this point about our brains evolving to raise a child in community and not having that community. Like that's quite tragic, really. The idea that this entire biological process is meant to happen with the village and the village is nowhere to be seen. And especially you mentioned like this being a particularly difficult phase, that kind of six to eight-week phase. The way that I'm viewing it for anyone listening in Case It's Helpful is that I'm taking it six weeks at a time. And viewing it in those increments. The first six weeks, you've got novelty, you've got adrenaline, you've got people wanting to come see the baby, it's happening, it's new. This next phase, very different, quieter, still sleep-deprived, less adrenaline, more running on complete fumes. And to do that without that support, yeah, it just feels really sad to me. And I think we have to, you know, you mentioned around like superheroes, resilient. Mothers do everything. That's also pressure. Because sometimes I don't feel like a superhero.
Rose: Mmm.
Bianca: Some days I'm barely getting by. Sometimes we haven't even made it downstairs before 11 because the routine's gone completely out the window. And I don't know, I know that those terms are meant to be in celebration of mothers, but I just question how much pressure they also put on us.
Rose: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I really love what you said there about taking it in six week increments of the time. Have you read the book, Tiny Experiments?
Bianca: No, I haven't.
Rose: It's such a good book, I'd recommend anyone to read it. And it's it's talks about effectively not trying to take on huge transformational changes, but breaking them down into tiny experiments. And I kind of hear that and what you're saying, like, let's see how this first six weeks goes. What's working well, what's not working well, what are we going to keep? What are we going to try again? And I think not giving yourself that pressure of, okay, this is what my plan is for my maternity leave, actually breaking it down to those smaller chunks probably makes it
Bianca: Yeah. Isn't it?
Rose: much more manageable for you, first of all, but also like gives you an opportunity to be reflective and do something different for the next six weeks.
Bianca: Yes, and this is where actually the corporate way of thinking is quite useful and applicable because having those check-ins, I'm not saying I'm doing like a quarterly business review, but I'm also not not saying that. I'm looking at those six weeks and I'm reviewing, and as you say, exactly that. I'm asking, okay, what worked, what didn't work, what helped, what didn't help? And if I look at each week at a time. I'm always thinking, what's the right balance of people helping versus one-on-one time? Versus now I'm starting to bring in like activities. Everything is a big experiment. First six weeks were about pure survival. Now there's a next six weeks of me is about getting out into the world. How much do we want to be out in the world? How much do we not? I'll report back, but yeah, I'm glad that resonates because it's been really helping me to view it like that. And I'll definitely check out that book
Rose: Mmm.
Bianca: know, I think week by week things are getting a little bit more confidence-building, but there are still days where I feel like I'm not getting it right at all. I might miss what he needs, or I just feel too tired ⁓ to be like the mum that I being at times.
Rose: I I understand that pressure and that, as you said, this is the most important work of your life. So I understand why you might feel like that, but babies don't need a mother who never misses them. They need one who comes back. The whole thing is built on repair and not perfection. So you get it wrong, you reconnect to the cycle. Actually, that cycle is actually how the bond ⁓ Secures, I guess there's a good way of putting it and every time you sue them you hold him you respond to him You're helping him lay those foundations those Consistent pieces of how he knows you'll show up of how he'll handle stress as he grows Which does sound like pressure, but I think it's actually the opposite I think it can be quite freeing What matters is consistency and not perfection, think is the most important thing to say there. And being responsive most of the time, not present every single second is so important. You've got to be able to step away. You've got to be able to hand him over and you're allowed an off day, but that bond is still there. It doesn't mean because you've taken time for yourself or because you've had a bit of an off day that that's broken. Like actually the reinforcement and the turning up again and being consistent, you know, falling off a horse and getting back on. is actually what builds the bond, strengthens it and holds it.
Bianca: There are so many lessons in that. And I I was just laughing to myself as you were talking because I was thinking, my God, my life's greatest teacher is seven weeks old. Like he is a prophet. So incredibly expansive for me. And the reason I say that is consistency, not perfection. If you think about that as a life lesson, that's applicable to everything. If you think about how much postpartum of the fourth trimester forces you to have to ask for help, for someone like me, that's a huge life lesson. I have a totally underutilized muscle when it comes to asking for help and admitting that I need help, and yet there's no choice in this period of time. So, yes, going back to this idea that actually what's shaping our baby's nervous systems is that consistency.
Rose: Hmm.
Bianca: is really liberating because I've read research that shows it's actually not even just about it being you as the mum all the time. It can be other caregivers, other trusted caregivers, as long as his needs are being responded to.
Rose: Really?
Bianca: You're teaching him that he's safe. That doesn't always have to be you. So take a couple of hours, go do something for yourself. As long as you've got that care in place, and not everybody does, big disclaimer and caveat here. But if you do, don't beat yourself up for needing to do that because chances are it's actually better for you and your baby to go and do that, have a little break, come back if his needs are being met. And babies operate little newbones, especially they operate on cycles, right? As long as he's fed, he's changed, he's had a sleep, he's winded, he's responsible. To, they're okay. I love that. I think it's for me the most important point of the whole episode around just knowing that it's not a hundred percent your responsibility all the time. You don't have to be perfect, you just have to be consistent in it. I love that. I think overall I feel very, very different. But what I'm taking from this episode is I feel different because I am different. And I go back to that quote that I opened the episode with around surrendering to the river of motherhood. And I love this idea of allowing ourselves to dissolve for a little while, to rebuild, to repair. We're never going to get back to that old version of ourselves. We're meant to let this change us. So when my body doesn't feel familiar, when my emotions feel too big, yeah, I'm gonna go back to the part that's so important to me, which is I'm becoming right now. And that's a full sentence. I don't even need to complete that sentence. I don't need to say I'm becoming this, that, and the other. I'm in the becoming process. And I think that's really beautiful.
Rose: So yeah, because birth doesn't just make a baby, it also makes a mother and a mother who's genuinely transformed. I mean, we've spoken about this before through matressants, your brain, your identity, your priorities all shift and there is no going back to that old version of yourself. ⁓ And I think if there's one thing every new mom can take from today, not every new mom, every mom can take from today. It's this, it's the fourth trimester, isn't a recovery period from pregnancy. it is the beginning of one of the biggest transformations of your life. we celebrate every tiny milestone for our babies. ⁓ in those first 12 weeks, the first smile, the first stretch, the first time they lift their head, I think we should give mothers that same grace because the fourth trimester isn't just your baby's first chapter, it's yours as a new mother as well.
Bianca: That's so well said. And typically we would rebrand or retire a term. But actually, I think we should end this episode with a call to action instead, which is while you are celebrating your baby's milestones, please celebrate some for you too. That first walk that you take with the Pram on your own, that first coffee that you go and get, the first time that you just introduce a little bit more movement into your routine, that first night where your baby sleeps that little bit more than you expected. Celebrate those milestones. Milestones, celebrate asking for help. Celebrate putting your hand up and saying to your partner, I don't feel well, and not feeling that pressure to be this perfect, glamorous, amazing mum, but instead just real and raw and human because that is the most powerful thing of all. So we'd love to hear any milestones that people choose to celebrate. I'm going to be taking that forward and I will report back on what those small but actually massively significant milestones are for me. And we hope that this helps just to get into the fourth trimester and understand a bit more about what's happening in our brains and why it matters. So thank you Rose for everything you've shared.
Rose: And thank you for sharing your live living experience of it. know it's super helpful for everybody listening,
