WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to a new series of material matters with Grant Gibson in association with our thought leadership partner Berghouse.
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This is a podcast where I talk to a designer, maker, artist, or architect about a material or technique with which they're intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their life and career.
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Think of it as a bit like Desert Island discs, but with materials instead of music.
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And to kick the new season off, I'm delighted to talk to Joel DeMaubray.
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Joel is the founding director of Yes Make, which, according to his website, is a regenerative design and build practice saving high-quality materials from going to waste.
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Earlier this year, the company joined forces with the Resolve Collective and material matters favourites Material Cultures to launch Tipping Point East in East London, a circular construction hub that aims to divert tons of material from going to Lamville.
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Joel, thank you very much for doing this.
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How are you?
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Thanks for having me on, Guan.
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I'm a big fan of the podcast, and I'm flying today, so let's do this.
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Okay, good.
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Good.
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I don't think I've ever had a guest tell me that they're flying.
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This is very good news, however.
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You've obviously heard the podcast before, which is great.
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And in that case, you'll know we have a kind of long-standing tradition of asking people about their workshop or studio.
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The notion being that you can learn quite a lot about someone by their working environment.
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Now, my feeling is that we're going to discover quite a bit about you from this particular question.
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However, I'm looking at the screen.
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You're not in your studio right now.
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Tell me where you are right now.
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So I'm at home.
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Um at home for me is a boat.
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Quite a beautiful 19 let me just check what that sign says.
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1931, she was built.
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1931, wow.
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And she was a Dunkirk little ship in the Battle of Dunkirk when they were bringing folks back over from the beach over there, and brought 140 soldiers back from uh the beaches in Dunkirk, and has travelled many a life since then, and then me and my family moved in here about four years ago because we were on another boat on the tidal Thames in Battersea, and we had some kids, and that really messed up with the space.
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So we needed a bit more space, and so we found our way onto this beautiful boat in uh an absolutely idyllic part of London.
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Can you tell me where?
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Yeah, so we're Greenland Dock in Surrey Keys.
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Okay, very nice.
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Which means I can see one way and it's just trees and water, and I look the other way and it's just canary wharf towers, and so it means I can pick and choose as to what view I want to enjoy.
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How old are your kids, Joel?
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I got a two and a five, um, which is a paradise.
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You know, we're kind of through the trenches stage where they just need everything of you whilst they continually try and hurt themselves without thinking about it.
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Into that stage where I'm starting to feel like this isn't going to be forever unless enjoy every moment.
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So it's a very beautiful time.
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And I mean, they won't know any better, I suppose, but houseboat life with children must be interesting, I guess, sometimes.
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They have a very engaged attitude to risk.
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Yeah.
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And more and more each day I trust them.
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Right.
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And so the five-year-old, she'll bob over to the neighbour's boats and come and go, kind of as she pleases.
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The two-year-old, she's getting there, but we keep her close for now.
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Yeah.
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When do you decide that you can let them go looser on a houseboat?
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I wish that was my choice.
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Yeah, okay.
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A lot of the time it's their choice.
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You know what I mean?
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They go and and after a while, you just develop the trust to stop following them a little bit.
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Yeah.
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Um, it's a balance.
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It's a balance.
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It's also pretty linked to how competent they are at swimming.
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I can imagine.
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Yeah.
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I mean, they're not wearing life jackets the whole time, presumably.
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You know what?
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I'm sure many parents experience this is like the first time around, you're tense, you're anxious.
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You know, I mean, we wanted to have Noah in life jacket every time she was out and about.
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And then by the time the second one came along, that belt really loosened off.
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Um, you know how it goes.
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Yes, I remember that vaguely.
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It's a long, long time ago since I was in your situation.
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But yeah.
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And so now we're reasonably free range.
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We're blessed to have a community around us here that keep tabs on each other.
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You know, if if the kids are roaming free beyond the freedom that we allow, any one of our neighbours is also going to pick them up on that.
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That's good.
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Okay, so that's a houseboat sorted.
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So let's pretend that you're in your studio now.
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Perhaps don't tell me who you work with quite yet, but maybe just describe your studio for listeners because you're on this former industrial estate.
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Yeah.
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Um, we're on a site in the Royal Docks.
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Um nearest station is Pontoon Dock on the DLR for people to help kind of with the geography near the Excel centre.
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And it really represents the wild west of industrial sites that I grew up in.
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And for me, that carries a lot of love, even if for a lot of people it's a bit rough around the edges.
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But that's the part of London that I truly, truly love.
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So let's say you're coming in, you're gonna come down through these really industrial feeling large palisade gates past uh excavators and tractors and diggers and um mountains of curbstones and uh everything that our neighbours deal with through down into Tipping Point East, where you've got kind of quite a lot of architectural beauty that we've started to allow to flourish in some of the ways that we're adapting this site to meet our needs today.
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And so at Tipping Point East, we started with the office build-out, which allowed ourselves and our partners to be able to have a base to work from.
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We then worked to strip out the area that Resolve Collective operate the material store from, which is a spectacular uh thing in its own right.
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And now we've progressed to restoring a former asbestos factory, which is going to be our warehouse as well as our factory space for all of the work that we do across quite a wide range of activities.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Because it's at the moment it's what, 8,000 square meters of space you've got?
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Yeah, we've got about eight and a half thousand uh metres of space, about two thousand of which are indoors, with the remainder as uh exterior yard space.
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Right.
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One thing you haven't mentioned is the planes flying overhead.
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Yeah, we're next.
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It's very close to City Airport, right?
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We're right next to City Airport, and I I look at those planes as cover fire because we're gonna be making a bag of noise, and for as long as the area is used to a bag of noise, hopefully we'll make good neighbours of ourselves.
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Tell me about the office part of your studio, because it's quite intriguing, the materials it's made from.
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Yeah, so um, you know, we're three organizations coming together with very limited resources to put to transforming this largely abandoned industrial estate into something that we can call home.
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And so by necessity, really, that starts with working with what you've got.
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And we're fortunate enough that we actually have quite a lot when it comes to materials.
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So at the time, we'd taken around 40 tons of cross-laminated timber from a building in Berkeley Square where subfloors would have been removed to open up the building and bring light through it.
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And so naturally, we look at the primary materials that we have available to us as the starting point for how we start to develop an architectural format that is going to serve the needs of the space and create something really beautiful.
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And so that led to the front wall of the new office space being composed primarily of that CLT, complemented and supplemented by internal glazed partitions that we relaminated ourselves to create insulated glazed units.
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Um, the lining of those timbers all came from the VA Fashion Gallery with the sills coming from commercial office space in Victoria.
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And then as you get into the actual office space itself, the floors came from the former set of Bridgerton.
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Uh, the kitchen was formerly Elton John's.
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Elton John's kitchen.
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I thought I'd ask.
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We want to know.
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How do you get Elton John's old kitchen?
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I mean, in this world is all sorts of crazy connections.
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And um, there aren't too many people that do what we do, so when stuff is going into a skip primarily, and there are people around that stuff that would prefer it went to a productive use, these things find their way to us.
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And so someone approached us asking the question, and it was a very easy yes.
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It's tremendously purple, isn't it?
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It's tremendously purple, yeah.
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Bang on the money.
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And to date, we've only really used about a third of it.
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Um, because I think the space that the kitchen occupied was slightly more generous than what we've got available to us at Tipping Point East, so there's still two-thirds of Elton John's kitchen going if anyone needs it.
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It was also a building control thing.
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They wouldn't let us have so that the kitchen used to have a deep fat fryer, a barbecue, and a griddle integrated into the work surfaces.
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And unfortunately, we couldn't swing that with building control.
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Yeah.
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It gives you some sense of what his diet might be.
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I mean, it sounds delicious.
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It does.
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It does.
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It does.
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Well, we'll talk about the history of YesMake a little later, I suspect.
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But in the first instance, it would be good to know what the company actually does.
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Because it it fills an interesting kind of niche, I think.
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Yeah.
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And actually, we've kind of made our niche in doing all the things that are a bit too difficult for any mainstream company to do.
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Um, in the respect that I was observing a lot of the ways in which construction and architecture and structural engineering and all of the associated disciplines around it practice.
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And I could really see that the over-segmentation of these disciplines meant that any one company within the process of producing the built environment didn't really have the scope or the incentive to tackle all of these things that fall between the gaps and materialize as the insane negative externalities of the construction industry, whether that is the 10 million tons of material waste in London alone, or whether it's simply the inability to engage and to involve local people in the process of creating the built environment.
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And so we operate as a four-part system, those four parts being materials, design, make, and build.
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So on the material side, we primarily collaborate with film and TV, cultural institutions, and the built environment sector to recover really high-quality, if not brand new, materials that would otherwise go into a skip.
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And we use those with our team that spans ecology, landscape architects, structural engineering, and more mainstream architecture to be able to apply these materials either in their existing format or adaptively into slightly different uses where it cannot be kind of imposed exactly as it formerly was in its first use.
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Then make operates at the object, furniture, and small structure scale to directly make with and for local communities.
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So that means getting people on the tools with us, both within the design process as well as within the on-site construction process.
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And then at build, we operate as a principal contractor.
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Up to the kind of mid-size development scale, primarily your kind of two and three stories of building is about where we cap out.
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But then we do a lot of work in the cultural space, designing and building exhibitions, um, public spaces as well as buildings.
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For us, I set up YesMake with the ethos that access to beautiful things shouldn't be limited by your ability to pay for it.
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Um tired of a built environment and a public realm that basically said we don't really trust you with nice things.
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Um we primarily focus on public spaces, public exhibitions, anything that is going to allow Londoners and anyone from this area to be able to enjoy these spaces without a paywall.
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So you talked about the skills that your team have.
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How big is your team, Joel?
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It sounds like you're covering a lot of turf.
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Yeah, there's about 13 of us.
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So not massive in that case.
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No, no, no.
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We do a lot with a little.
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We are going to be hiring um between six and nine new people over the next three months.
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Um and so that is going to need to grow because this particular moment that you find us in is quite uh a massive transition, really.
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Um, you know, we've gone from a 150-meter square workshop set in a community garden in South East London to now having 8,500 metres squared with a 1200 meter square factory.
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You know, it's almost a 10 times increase in our capacity.
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And so um we've got to a point with our existing team where we're doing the most, and now it's time to really bulk up that capacity for what's to come.
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Okay.
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So let's get into tipping point east properly in that case, because it opened officially what a couple of months ago, really.
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About March.
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About March, okay.
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So three or four months ago.
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You share the space we've indicated with the Resolve Collective, which is a design collective that works with art institutions, cultural institutions in the main to reuse their waste.
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There's also material cultures, friend of this podcast.
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We've had Summer Islam on the show.
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It's an architectural practice that, as its name suggests, has a profound interest in how we use materials.
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So how did the three of you get together in the first instance?
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I think you've known Resolve Collective for a while, right?
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In a previous life, I worked within local authority context delivering both policy uh in the kind of planning and transport space and public realm space, as well as directly delivering projects.
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And I worked with Seth from Resolve Collective at Lambeth Council, and it was actually Seth that put it on my radar that I could even consider setting up my own practice, really.
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Because I bumped into Seth and his brother Kil in Max's bar in Brixton on like a Friday night, tipping away on their laptops.
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I was like, What are you guys doing?
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It's the weekend, like, why are you working?
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And they told me about Resolve Collective, and it was within like two weeks, I was like, right, I'm going part-time, I'm getting to it.
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Because I'd realised at that point that I was sitting on the wrong side of the table, being within a local authority.
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You know, I think as a young man, that context really increased the scale of what I was capable of doing because of the resources, the context, the kind of the powers and the communities that they serve.
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And then I'd hit a point about seven, eight years later, where actually this was really limiting what I was able to do because of a lot of the institutional baggage and just the process of doing anything in a local authority context.
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So you've met the Resolve Collective.
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How did Material Cultures relationship come about?
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So at the time, Resolve had been evicted from their studio in Croydon, and they were squatting with Material Cultures over uh in East London.
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And Material Cultures had done a research piece for Newham Council about the establishment of circular economy construction hubs.
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So naturally, there was a conversation to be had.
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And when I reached out to them, uh, we were just, it was an exploratory one, but from the jump, the connection was really, really clear and obvious.
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And when you combine our specialisms around material recovery and applying those materials into new projects to create a circular economy with their experience and skill set around bioregional construction added to the redistributive and to the social model of Resolve Collective, you start to get a really, really solid piece of regenerative infrastructure that's able to serve this city at scale and start to transform what has been narrative for a long time into practice.
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And that's what got us really, really, really excited, where tipping point east now represents something that is far greater than the sum of its parts.
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And how will you dovetail?
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I mean, are you gonna all just do your separate projects and you happen to be sharing a space, or are you working, you know, very much cheat by jowl, working together?
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So I'd say there's about three answers to that.
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So number one is just like the in the mix, like peer-to-peer, being around each other, supporting each other in the work that we're doing is phenomenal just on a day-to-day level.
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Like I love going to work.
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Um, and I hope everybody else feels the same way too.
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And we support each other in that.
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Um, number one, number two, we work together on loads.
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Um and where, for example, let's say there's a cultural institution that is removing an exhibition, there's going to be a vast body of material that is appropriate to us and a vast body of material that's appropriate to resolve.
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And when we join forces in that way, we can really put everything that's coming out of these institutions to good use, as opposed to on our own, there'd be things that Resolve can't take, or there'd be things that we can't take.
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So that's quite interesting.
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I don't know, pull out an example, but maybe you walk into a cultural institution, what are Resolve going to take?
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What are you going to take?
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What is the difference between the two?
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Resolve Collective are really interested in the creative capacity and potential of objects in their current form.
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Um and we're really interested in materials that allow us to replace dependence on virgin materials to be able to really create the entire envelope and interior fit out of buildings, public spaces, etc.
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And so, say, for example, you've got a museum that's completely stripping out, you know, like a stone floor.
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We would take all of that stone, we would take all of those timber floorboards, etc.
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There's going to be showcases in there.
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And those showcases don't necessarily make sense to us.
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They are not intuitively a construction material.
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But for Resolve, they're an incredible asset to their community in being a suitable format that they can immediately display their work to a much higher level than they would have been able to without kind of, you know, 10 grand showcases that would otherwise be binned off.
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So you've come together and you have this site in Silvertown, Newham, East London.
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And it's an area, as you've pointed out, that has some challenges.
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There's a lot of building work going on.
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I think they're planning to build 7,000 new houses over the next decade.
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So can we talk a little bit about the area you're in and why did it appeal?
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A couple of reasons.
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Number one, space.
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You know, if you're coming by 8,500 metres square space in London, there probably aren't too many areas you can look to.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.279
And so East London has that space for us.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:34.960
And whilst we're in an 8,500 metres square footprint right now, there's neighbouring sites that bring that up to around 25,000 meters squared that we're working with the landowners of that space right now to bring that forward for our use, to be able to extend the capacity of Tipping Point East.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.160
So number one is the space.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.599
The space is phenomenal.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:53.680
And the buildings that were there, uh, whilst dilapidated former asbestos factories that have had pigeons as the main residence for 40 years, actually had the capacity and the potential to house this vision in a way that we could realize.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.559
Number two is we're just off North Willich Road.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:04.559
That's a major strategic route situated near aggregate sites, situated near waste processing sites, near city airport.
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:17.920
So, in terms of the context, the strategic road network that supports that area means it's an appropriate place for us to be doing large-scale material collections and deliveries without imposing on an area that otherwise might have been a sleepy village.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.559
One of the greatest assets is the background noise.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.480
Whilst it might not be helpful to record a podcast, hence why you find me here.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.680
In a boat, yeah.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:33.119
Yeah, it's a real asset to, you know, because the last thing I want to do is roll up on a neighborhood and start making noise that is not welcome.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.240
Sure.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.680
So how did you find the site?
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.440
Were you driving about London's industrial wastelands trying to find somewhere?
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:40.079
How did that work?
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.240
Just like the best things, it found me.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:42.799
Okay.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:21:00.880
So I had uh someone from the GLA reached out because uh following the report that Newham had done on the creation of circular economy construction hubs, Newham had been lobbying the GLA to put these vacant sites to good use to support the circular economy.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.079
And so at that time they did a call out for organizations that would be interested in taking on that space.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:15.920
And I think the first time I visited the site, there was maybe 10, 20, maybe even as many as 30 different organizations that were also invited to view the site.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.599
And particularly the former asbestos factory.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:25.839
Uh, everyone, everyone really turned off at that point and was like, this is a bit of a hopeless one.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:34.880
Um, but for me, as a builder, I was looking at this, seeing a couple of problems that are no great feat for us to resolve.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.880
And I thought the main thing is it has the capacity to serve that vision that we're working towards.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:48.720
And so it was from then really that I started talking to Material Cultures and Resolve Collective about like let's get moving on this.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, and it was probably about eight months of developing the business plan, the proposal, all of the supporting documentation and evidence that you need to be able to present the facts.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.400
You're a viable group of organizations, despite being small, together we had the capacity to take this site on.
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.759
And public engagement, it seems to me, is something important that you do.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.000
You want people to come in and see what it is you're doing.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:12.960
Yeah, 100%.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:20.480
So, you know, for us, and each organization, Material Cultures Resolve Collective and ourselves, will have their own answer to this.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.359
Um, but for us, the answer is a couple of things.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.039
Number one, we follow a process called material-led design.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:35.039
When we get a brief for a project, we will do a lap of our materials and it will reveal exactly what this project wants to be.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.000
Um, that is designing from the materials you have.
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.559
You know, I call it cooking from what's in the fridge.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.640
And you can't really do that if no one's letting you look in the fridge.
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.200
Yeah.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.799
Don't want to look in my fridge, Joel.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.079
There's nothing in it.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:50.319
Bar of moldy cheese, but move on.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.200
I get the analogy.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:52.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:58.400
And so you can't exactly promote material-led design, but then not invite people down to come and see the materials.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:21.039
Um so for us, it's super important to get designers reconnected to the materiality of their work so that they can start designing with what is available as opposed to what is a more prevalent practice of uh leading with kind of an architectural or an artistic concept where material is secondary to what you may want to do.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.440
Whereas actually, the material holds so much more potential.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:35.200
As you know, far from a constraint, it's such a ridiculously awesome opportunity to build in probably a better spec than what might be achievable before.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:54.720
Um, probably something with a far richer character and story to it, things with patina and love and history to them, um, and a story and an impact that means that when you're creating a building, it's not about offsetting the damage that that building has done, but it's inherently a building that does good.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.200
You have the three separate parties doing their own thing but coming together from time to time.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:05.279
You have engagement with the industry who can come in and see stuff, the public who can come in and see stuff.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.319
You've got a five-year lease from the mayor of London.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.359
How do you fund it?
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.640
Are you self-funding this?
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.680
How does it work?
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.240
Yeah, and I tell you, that's probably been one of the hardest parts of the journey.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:39.200
Up until last Friday, when I got a good bit of news, it was entirely self-funded, hand to mouth, you know, delivering projects kind of on average 5 to 35k, and just reinvesting everything that came through those projects back into, well, for the longest time, legal fees to get that lease over the line.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:50.000
Um, and more recently into the restorative works to the building, um, the physical infrastructure that we need, and the digital back end that we need to operate this efficiently.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:54.000
So it has been a tense one.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:00.960
Any business owners listening um will always have cash flow on their mind.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:13.680
And particularly in getting the lease for tipping point over the line, and then those early days of developing our infrastructure, yeah, it was it it was it was it was real tight.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:20.000
Um and the financial management around that is is tricky.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:26.240
But recently we received a grant that really does lift a lot of that challenge from us.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:31.279
Um, but I would remiss not to highlight a couple of bits of funding that we did get.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:41.680
So we got through Newham Council uh£105,000 that went towards the build of the office space.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:55.359
And that was uh an Innovate UK project that wanted to advance earlier funding rounds that they'd had that developed the theory of circular practice with the ability to express that through a completed building.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.160
Hope you're enjoying the show.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:03.440
This is just to remind you that our big fair, Material Matters London, is opening very soon.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:10.319
It runs from the 15th to the 17th of September at Unlock Shoreditch and is part of Shoreditch Design Week.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:11.839
There's lots to look out for.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:22.480
Berghouse, our official thought leadership partner, will be front of centre of our Cafe Conversations Talk Series, for instance, and you'll be glad to hear that the Legroni Talks will also return.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:29.119
Elsewhere, there are installations from the British Council, Matrix Design, the Wood Awards, and the Only Natural Awards.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.680
Front and biotech company Biomason have joined forces to unveil Mimic Tile, a floor and wall tile that grows with the help of bacteria.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.640
The Ore Foundation, based in Ghana, will be showing pieces made from post-consumer clothing waste.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:54.559
Fallen and felled repurposes felled urban trees into hardwood furniture, and Carbon Cell presents its plastic-free alternative to polymer-based foams made with carbon-negative biochar.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.599
I could go on.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.759
Frankly, it's a very long list of extraordinary people doing fascinating things.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.640
Material Matters London is free to attend for trade, but it's vital you register.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:08.880
And you can do that at our website, materialmatters.design.
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.960
That's materialmatters.
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:27.519
So your aim is to divert an estimated, and there are different figures, so you you might have to pick me up on the figures, but 15,000 tonnes of material from landfill over the next five years, which is the length of your lease.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.839
How do you go about doing that?
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.720
What's your plan?
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:31.839
Big question.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:44.319
First of all, when I was doing it, so we've got a decent amount of space, but the scale of the waste issue means that there's almost no amount of space we could have in London that means that we can just remove space as a constraint.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:50.480
So the first thing I did was went about kind of strategically positioning where can we have the biggest impact.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:28:01.039
And so I was looking at the embodied carbon content of materials coming out through the built environment sector in particular, and the volumes of those materials coming out.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:11.440
Because it's not just about, oh, I don't know, steel has really high embodied carbon, but there's very little of it coming out as a hypothetical.
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:18.720
You know, it was about embodied carbon times volume gets you the greatest impact in environmental terms as to what we could achieve.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.920
And so that meant quite a heavy focus on steel, timber, and glass.
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:36.160
Um, and so I started with that as a kind of the strategic priorities that reflected the greatest volumes of waste arising from the construction sector in London with the greatest embodied carbon impact.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.559
And so that was the starting point for establishing what I wanted to prioritize.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:51.519
But then what happens is when you go into 11-story, 16-story, 36-story uh demolition sites, they're not just picking out timber, steel, and glass.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.200
There's a, you know, an absolute plethora of other materials that come out.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.400
And so when the rubber hits the road, you adapt.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:14.079
And so that kind of drove me to broaden out the categories that we would take, because number one, if you're just going to isolate it down to timber, steel, and glass, you're probably going to have capacity in some of those loads for the other materials that are available.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:20.640
And if we're sending a 26-ton lorry to go and collect materials, any air in that lorry is a loss.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:34.480
Um, and so if it means uh that there's 240 perfectly good accessible toilets in a building that have been installed four years ago, I'd be an idiot to say no to that.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:58.720
Um and so at this point in time, we cover everything from facades, and there are contexts where we're taking entire buildings at this point in time, through to sanitary wear, kitchens, cabinets, um, your dimensional timber, structural steel, lightweight steel, electrical components such as lighting, switches, sockets, etc.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.440
Um, because I can't put it clear enough.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.559
The aim is to turn buildings back into buildings.
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:24.240
And that's one thing that's come out of the woodwork is when someone asks us for, let's say, some two by six timber and some sheet stock because they're building a wall, they're gonna need emergency fire signage, they're gonna need an accessible toilet, they're gonna need all of those uh building control packages that otherwise get forgotten about.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.000
Are there things you can't recycle?
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.920
Just to be panickety on it.
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.359
So we don't do any recycling.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.480
Reuse, let's say.
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:31.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.960
Thanks for picking me up.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:33.839
No pleasure.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.720
Um so plaster board, um, we just can't use it for two reasons.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.000
Number one, it very rarely comes out in a usable format.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.920
And number two is I talk about something called value density.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:58.799
So for us, let's say you're filling a 26-ton lorry off a construction site with materials that you intend to reuse, the value density of those materials is really crucial.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:11.519
Um, if a cubic meter of steel can run you 1200 pounds, whereas a cubic meter of plaster board might be worth 240 quid, uh, that's a very different proposition.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:21.119
And so for plaster board in particular, the deconstruction methods and the value density don't currently stack up to make it a viable material for us to recover.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.119
And equally, we can't do everything.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.119
You know, we do have to draw some boundaries.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.200
And so plaster board is one of them.
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:34.400
And the second main category today that I'm hoping to change is firedors, particularly 60-minute-rated fire doors.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.759
More of a compliance reason than anything to do with the material itself.
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:39.680
That did come up in all the research I've done.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.559
Fire doors, I suppose it's obvious, but why fire doors?
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.000
What's the problem around fire doors?
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.440
Fire doors, they are a safety critical element of a building.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.319
So naturally and for good reason, the compliance requirements surrounding them are going to be far higher.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:07.680
Um, and without a full kind of material passport associated with the doors that we take on, we simply cannot validate for the next user that that fire door is still rated as it's required to be.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:08.400
Number one.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.440
Number two, a fire door is not a door.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:17.440
A fire door is a system, and that system includes the doors and the frame.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:33.119
And in terms of the way that those are constructed and removed and transported, we cannot take uh and they cannot really be removed effectively or efficiently to remove the entire frame with the doors intact.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:43.759
And so where that is a building system as opposed to a building component, you know, the door is the component, the system is the door, the hinge is the frame.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:33:05.359
Now, we're working towards a place where we can be accredited for the inspection, maintenance, and installation of fire doors, at which point we can create new collections of components that allow us to recertify a complete system as a suitable fire door, but it's a journey and that doesn't happen on day one.
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.000
No, no, you've alluded to quite a bit of it there.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.680
But what are the challenges of reuse of construction waste?
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:16.400
I mean, presumably regulation, which you're talking about, and timing, I guess.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:23.359
Yeah, so I guess to start with um materials, let's bring it back to materials.
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:30.400
Every single material that we handle is near on a different business in of itself.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:41.279
Every single material has completely different characteristics, completely different compliance requirements, handling methods, removal methods, uh, and demand profiles.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.640
So number one is recognizing that difference.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:59.200
Um and I think that's partly why where there are existing organizations that do salvage or reuse, say raised access flooring, for example, they just do one material and they do it great, and that's brilliant.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:06.880
But you need, and essentially, we have a business model of business models, if you know mean, almost like a macro business model.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:21.280
So how we think about the establishment of new material flows so that it's not um so it's a system that can be adaptive to materials as they arise and work out exactly how that operates in business terms.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.480
But you asked a broader question, remind me the other parts too.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.880
Yeah, it's the challenges of reuse.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:27.519
Challenges.
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:29.119
Timing, I'm guessing.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.480
Getting into projects.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.920
So yeah, there's the material side, and then timing is a big factor.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:50.880
What we're doing out here is threading needles time-wise, absolutely threading needles, because the scale of materials for us today has progressed from what I would describe as the object scale, a piece of wood, a door, a window, um, through to the building scale.
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:59.599
So that is six meter by three and a half meter facade panels and all of the structural steel that support those hundreds of facade panels to compose a building.
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:03.760
And that is not something you can have lying around for a long amount of time.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:09.599
And so we've got really, really, really good at threading needles.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:23.280
And that is having early sight of what is arising, coordinating that with demand for that material, and making sure that we are able to preferably not even land it at our site.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.239
Um, but otherwise, we generally try and turn materials around in about eight weeks.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.039
Interesting.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.320
In your experience, does the industry want to change?
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:34.079
I'm wondering how you go about changing it.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.800
Is it enough to appeal to the industry's hearts?
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:40.880
Presumably, it's more effective to appeal to their wallets.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.440
What are the economics of your model, Joel?
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:48.960
The presumption often is, correctly or incorrectly, that reusing materials is somehow going to be more expensive.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.000
Yeah, so does the industry want to change?
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:56.159
Obviously, no industry is a singular.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:06.239
What I'd say is across the built environment sector, cultural institutions, film and TV, there is a universal recognition of the issue, for sure.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:13.280
Um there are more concentrated efforts towards change within particular pockets of these industries.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:22.800
Um, obviously, the rise of sustainability in as an industry in of itself has has given way to a lot of that more mainstream knowledge of the problem.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:31.039
Um I'd say the commercial case is still the strongest driver of decision making.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.199
And I don't say that as a critique, like let's be practical with it.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:43.199
Um, if you're running a business and you need to make sure that your people are still employed at the end of the day, the commercial case has to has to play out.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:37:11.360
Now, as we get onto the preconception of circular practice over linear practice, this is where nuance is very important because as I say, different materials have different handling methods, have different characteristics, and therefore the economics of is circular more expensive or less expensive uh than uh conventional disposal really is down to the material that we're talking about.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.079
Um, so I can hit you with some examples if you like.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:15.840
Go on, hit me with an example.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:19.519
So this is where you need to think on a systems level.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:29.039
And as I was describing earlier, where the scope of influence of any one uh contractor within the process is a little bit too small to be able to look at it as an overall system.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.480
So, internal glazed partitions, for example.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.039
Um, any commercial office space coming out has hundreds of them.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:53.280
You I'm sure everybody listened to this as walked past a glass meeting room, and not necessarily considered that that glass meeting room is like 15 panels that each weigh upward of 100 kilos with an embodied carbon factor of up to 2.4, depending on the buildup of the glass.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.840
Um so for 100 kilos, that's 240 kilos of embodied carbon.
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:33.280
Um now conventionally you would go through there with uh wheelie bins, so industrial wheelie bins, uh, and a lump hammer, and you would smash it up into little bits, they'd go into the wheelie bin, and then you'd have fleets of primarily uh men trying to get into what is normally a pedestrian lift with these wheelie bins, so that they can get it down to the first floor where almost every time there'll be a gantry that oversales the pavement, oversales the road, so that a 40-yard weight and load skip can come and those wheelie bins can be tipped off.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:46.400
Now, if you're comparing the labor that it takes to remove a panel and lay it flat with the labor that it takes to hit that glass with a hammer, you'd have an easy case for saying, I think I'll hit it with a hammer.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:39:01.039
But if you look at the full process that's involved in terms of taking it back down to ground level, doing all of that disposal in the bin, plus the transport cost and the waste disposal cost of getting rid of it, it's quite a different situation economically.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:11.199
We operate so that that glass is stacked on the floor, and then we wait for when the facade of that building is coming off so that those materials can be hoisted off en masse.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.360
So out of a floor, we can take all of those panels from the floor in one stack.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:24.320
And so we're working with demo contractors where they are just laying those panels and we use the old off-cut carpet tiles between each piece of glass to protect it.
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:29.119
Um, gets nicely strapped, and then that can be lowered directly onto a vehicle.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:35.840
Um, obviously, uh, definitely got to give credit to Sangoban and uh their reuse program for glass.
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:42.800
And so there are ways that glass it doesn't go to waste, but um, there are still quite uh big challenges around that.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:47.679
So any fire rated glass, for example, cannot be recycled because of its boron content.
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:54.800
Um, another example, fire doors, uh, or let's call it internal doors to avoid the fire thing.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.400
Because we do take fire doors, we just don't sell them as fire doors.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.079
They're still a perfectly good door.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:00.400
Yeah.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.920
Conventional process, take it off as hinges, lay it on the flat, cut it into small pieces that fit in the wheelie bin, then same process.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:12.159
In the lift, down to the first, over the gantry, into the 40 yard.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:13.599
Same again.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:25.360
We take it off uh the hinges, strip all the metalwork so that it's a flat blank, and that way we can get 20 to 30 doors in one nice neat stack, depending on the weight capacity that we're working with for each load.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:38.880
And when you compare those two things, you're saving about 20 to 30 percent on labor time relative to what it would have been to be cutting that up, sticking it in a bin, waiting for the lift, getting down there.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:45.360
But at the moment, the challenge is that a lot of that difference is quite invisible, it's quite blurry within the process.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:56.880
Um, and so where we're working with contractors on material recovery plans, which is the way that we work, to develop a plan for exactly what removal and reuse looks like for each material.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.639
We get our contractors now to do a comparative time difference.
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:20.159
So, where there are items that we cannot take, we'll get them to do the standard smash bin dispose method and time that in comparison to the materials that we can take so that we can start to have a really solid evidence base that can communicate to people that actually it can be quicker, it can be cheaper.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:27.679
Um, because if we're collecting materials, you're not encountering exactly the same level of waste charge that you would if you were just doing conventional disposal.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.320
Can we talk about you and YesMake and how it started?
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.119
Because you initially co-founded the company with Morgan DeSilva, what, six years ago, 2020.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.920
You were working, as you said, for Lambeth Council.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.880
How did you go from Lambeth to starting the company?
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:51.199
I mean, you mentioned the side hustle, but was there a moment when it stopped being a side hustle and started becoming actually, I'm gonna make a career out of this?
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.679
Yeah, it did, it did, it did.
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.800
So that moment was just after I built something called the Arc in Lewisham.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:03.039
It was only ever supposed to be there for a year during COVID.
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:13.199
Um, and in the end, it was there for five years until it was recently replaced with a permanent scheme in where it used to be.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:20.000
And off the back of that, we got some unreal jobs in Waterloo and with the Tate Modern.
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.360
And uh all of those were about three months down the line.
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.960
I was looking at a two-month notice period and thought, right, it's gotta happen.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:28.000
It's gotta happen.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:29.920
And so it was quite an easy jump in the end.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.880
Because you started reclaiming wood, right?
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:35.119
I mean, this this is how the company began.
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.800
When you've got nothing, you find what you need.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.280
Yeah.
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:40.960
And that's where it started from.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:49.679
So the first project that I did was with Resolve, and it was your conventional skip dive, get what you need, cobble it together.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:43:01.360
Um then uh I started working with tree surgeons that were pulling down trees all over London, and we converted a 1980s electric milk float to be able to take those trees.
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:06.400
Because the biggest problem was the fact that the cost of transport was greater than the material value.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:14.320
So our model was right, how do we resolve that transport cost so that there's still a business in recovering the material?
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:23.039
Um, so we were able to take between three and four tons on the milk float, and we put fitted it with a timber arch, uh, kind of Macromona style.
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.159
If anyone knows who he is, Google it if you don't.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:31.199
Um and started milling that to make dimensional timber.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.800
And, you know, I could have had a happy life in that space.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:36.320
We were having a great time.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:44.960
Uh, but as soon as I had a reputation for being able to use timber, you get invited to construction sites to reuse timber that was on those sites.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:51.920
And then as soon as I was in that context, you know, I felt good, we were doing good things, like yes, we were putting these trees to good use.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:59.760
But as soon as you walk into a construction site and actually get the visual of the scale of waste that is in existence, particularly female.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:02.559
Feeling like I was someone that could do something about it.
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:11.199
I couldn't help feeling like we were just tinkering around the edges, having a lovely time, when actually there was a really serious issue here that we should be looking at addressing.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:19.920
So this is how it's changed in that six years in that case, going from tinkering around the edges to being properly embedded in the construction industry.
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:35.360
Yeah, and and the wonderful thing about the position that we occupied is that we're not a demolition contractor, we're not an architecture practice, we're not a structural engineering practice, we're not any of the kind of mainstream disciplines.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:49.920
And that meant that we traveled through all of these spaces, interacting with them in the way that we work, and it kind of gave us a really, really, really unique viewpoint within and across the entire sector.
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:57.119
And it was that viewpoint that I think gave the potential to realize what could be possible.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:07.039
If actually you created an entity that could span these, you know, interconnected but very segmented disciplines.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:14.159
Because every time we were invited to a site, they were trying to solve exactly the same problem as the last site that we'd been to.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:25.599
Um, of how, and and you know, for example, with the circular economy, it's quite heavily dominated with uh the intention of reusing your own materials within your own project.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:33.920
And you know, we were accounting the the business case just doesn't stack up because you've got the material, you need to store it, you need someone to process it.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:45.119
It has to pass through so many hands that it completely undermines the ability of reusing that material for anything more than the kind of environmental ethics of it.
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:58.159
And when you realize that demo contractors want to reduce their waste bill, developers want to be able to meet planning obligations and really deliver on the sustainability objectives that they have.
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:07.679
Architects really want, again, to address the climate issue that we face, and engineers really want to reduce the waste that exists.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:18.480
You know, I spoke to so many engineers that are just gutted that basically what they're doing is just specifying meter cubes of concrete to be plowed in whilst, you know, engaging.
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:25.599
Because I think architects, structural engineers as a discipline, I think are particularly sensitive to things around the climate crisis.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:44.400
I think because of their professional engagement with both environments and materials and uh ecosystems, it means that they have a level of awareness probably more than you might if you're in the music industry, if you're in an industry that isn't connected to the earth quite in the same way.
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:54.159
Um and so observing the fact that all of these industries were trying to solve all of the same problems kind of in their own pocket of isolation.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:16.559
And the fact that it didn't stack up on a small scale made it quite obvious to me that what we needed to do was consolidate the solutions to these problems into a physical piece of infrastructure that where on a project-by-project level it doesn't stack up, you can agglomerate those different projects to be able to create an infrastructure that actually can do that at scale.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:23.360
Did you therefore always have a plan when you finish the arc and you got these new contracts coming in from Tate Bond, etc.?
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:25.760
Did you see yourself being where you are now?
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:27.519
Shall I tell you where this started?
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.320
Go on.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:35.519
So Morgan was previously working managing solar installations in LA.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.239
Me and him, we go way back, we went to college together, we were just catching up, kicking it.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:46.480
And I started with the objective of creating really beautiful public spaces.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:51.360
Um, we should have a beautiful public realm in which everybody feels special.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.559
When me and Morgs were talking, and I invited him to join us, we were doing a landscaping project at the time.
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.920
And, you know, when you're on a shovel, you've got plenty of time to talk.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:05.519
You know, you can, and then that's the beauty of physical work, is it really enables a lot of very beautiful conversations.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:20.480
And we were talking about the fact that we could do completely environmentally friendly solar structures um that were both beautiful and practical for solar installations.
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:24.239
And to this day, we have not done one of those.
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:26.800
We have not done a single one.
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:27.920
So that was the plan.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:28.719
That was the plan.
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.280
That was the plan.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.440
We were going to be doing solar structures, and like I say, we we didn't even do a single one.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.679
Um, life had other plans.
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:50.000
And so for me, I you know, I have a pretty pretty big vision as to what we can achieve here that spans uh beyond the environmental impact to economic and social aspects of what we're striving for.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:57.199
But I'm equally a very pragmatic person that will adapt to the opportunities and challenges that arise.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:08.000
And so what I tell you today is the plan, if you ask me the same question in two years, I bet I'll be sitting here almost unable to recognize the answer that I gave.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:11.039
Well, you wait to my last question in that case, Joel.
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:20.320
I mean, it'd be good to know a little bit about your background because you have this kind of intriguing range of skills from making to town planning.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:24.400
You told the Guardian that you were a bit of a lost boy growing up.
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:25.840
What did you mean by that?
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:28.880
Number one, we lived in London pretty nomadically.
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:35.440
Like with my mum, we either got evicted, we had house fires, we were in temporary accommodation constantly.
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:40.719
Um, at school, I was a yellow shirt kid, you know, that laundry was not getting done.
00:49:41.039 --> 00:50:03.519
Um and so you can, you know, particularly when you come from that kind of version of poverty, number one, particularly when you're surrounded by young people that are more affluent than you, number two, and you know, it's it's very easy to feel or to think that you are worthless.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:12.800
Um and I'd say up until I was 16, I didn't really have a sense of purpose, didn't have a sense of self-worth.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:17.679
Um, and I think lost boy is bang on, bang on the money.
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:24.400
Um and I'd say that that is not a condition that is unique to people that grew up in the circumstances that I grew up in.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:37.599
I think until people develop either a core skill or something that they identify with as giving them power or purpose, whoever you are, wherever you come from, it's easy to feel that way.
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:41.440
And uh for me, it was it was bike mechanics.
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.519
Um so I mean, I I ran businesses from the jump.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:50.320
Um, I set up my first business sanding and re-varnishing people's dining tables.
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.280
Um and that was good work.
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:59.679
The fact that these people were allowing a child to come into their house with power tools like that is mad to me these days.
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:01.599
But you know, that was a long time ago.
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:03.280
So, how old were you when you were doing that?
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:05.199
I was about 13, 14.
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:06.400
Wow, okay, wow.
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:13.440
And the first one I did, right, first one I did, you know, I knew how to use a belt sander, I knew how to sand.
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:18.719
What I didn't realize is that doing that in someone's house would really dust up the kitchen.
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:25.920
Um and so the first one I did, I had to probably spend longer cleaning the kitchen than I did doing the table.
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.639
And then so after that, I got myself a little murder tent.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:30.400
Uh, forgive the phrase, you know what I mean.
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:31.280
Like a little gazebo.
00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:31.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:36.000
And I'd build a gazebo around the table to contain the dust and lesson learned.
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:36.400
Yeah.
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.440
But making was obviously always important to you.
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.280
Your father is a carpenter, right?
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:42.400
That's right, that's right.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:50.320
So while we were with my mum, it was a very precarious and kind of terrible situation for the most part.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:54.880
With my dad, we'd we he'd pick us up on Thursday nights and we'd see him every other weekend.
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.239
And he uh lived above his workshop in Peckham.
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:13.119
And so when I was there, I'd just be getting number one, you know, tucked into whatever I wanted to make, whether it was like a ball or a lightsaber or uh a little car or uh robot wars uh models and stuff like that.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.440
And so I'd be in the workshop making stuff, sometimes with dad, sometimes on my own.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:20.880
And then I'd be jumping on with the tools with him when I was coming up.
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:26.960
So from about six, seven, eight-ish, if dad was on a job, that's where I wanted to be.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:36.000
Um, and it started out, I'd just be making sure that like if dad drills a hole, I know I'm gonna put a screw in it before he gets back to that hole with a drill or with a driver.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:36.960
Do you know what I mean?
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:41.119
I was just looking for any way I could find myself being useful on site.
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:48.960
And then I started going into more formal construction sites from maybe 16, you know, doing small scale building.
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:51.440
This isn't with your dad, this is independently now.
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:52.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:54.880
That was with like small house building contractors.
00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:55.519
Right, right.
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.480
So yeah, I mean, from the jump, I've always made stuff.
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:04.719
I mean, my dad built our house and I was helping him as much as I could when I was, what was that, 10 years old, 12 years old.
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:06.559
So I've always been around making.
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:11.920
I've always had this like urge to be as useful within making as I possibly can be.
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:24.719
Um, and then what happened was around maybe 20, maybe 21 years old, um I knew I loved it, but I was looking for some stability.
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:31.920
And I kind of, I don't know, I wanted a life that had stability, that had holiday pay, that had a monthly income.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:33.599
Like I was not looking to be poor anymore.
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:36.639
I was looking to be legit in the world.
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:40.000
And so that's what drew me into the local authority context.
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:42.239
Because didn't you start as a cycling instructor?
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:43.440
Was that not your first job?
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.320
So when I was, well, I've had many first jobs.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:50.800
First job was actually servicing carburetors at a motorbike shop when I was way too young.
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.840
A pivotal job then, let's say, the cycling instructor.
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:55.440
Definitely, definitely, definitely.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:03.679
Because number one, I had a skill that was useful to other people and I could serve the world in a way that gave me a sense of purpose, a sense of value.
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:12.559
And also, you know, like I was saying about moving around when I was growing up, my whole world could be ripped away with no like immediately, you know.
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.800
Um, we would move on a dime like that.
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.519
If something happened with my mum, we'd just move immediately.
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:19.599
Can I ask about your mum?
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:23.199
I mean, this is about poverty, or was it were there other things going on with your mother?
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:28.719
In like diagnosis terms, it's considered today to be called schizoaffective disorder.
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:29.119
Right.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:33.440
Most people would be like more familiar with the terms like bipolar schizophrenia.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:36.800
Um, so she'd have a lot of delusions.
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:52.480
You know, she'd believe that the neighbor downstairs was trying to rob her or trying to murder her, and that would either result in like a physical location or building damage or something that would wind up in probably her getting arrested, us getting moved on, and just repeat, repeat, repeat.
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:59.119
But it's the fact that my my whole world could be pulled away in a heartbeat, but you could not take the skill away from me.
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.960
And I knew from that point that I could take that skill anywhere and I'd be fine.
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:07.760
Obviously, they don't need too many cycling instructors in Holland, so maybe not everywhere.
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:11.840
But how did you go from cycling instructor into the local authorities?
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:12.559
Gotcha.
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:22.480
So um I think it was leading towards 2012, 2013, 2014, London was getting proper serious about doing real cycling infrastructure.
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:25.840
You know, it wasn't going to be a green paint anymore, it was going to be some proper stuff.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:38.239
And so they were bringing cycling instructors into the process of designing streets because they wanted the people that teach cycling to be able to support the creation of infrastructure that we would teach people to use.
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:50.079
Because genuinely, before the new version of cycle lanes that we have today, we had to teach people not to use cycle lanes because it specifically put people on the left-hand side of vehicles at junctions.
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.119
It's, you know, it's exactly the wrong place to be.
00:55:53.440 --> 00:56:02.639
Um, so I started uh with the organization I was working with, supporting local authorities and TFL around cycling design standards.
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:08.960
And then the opportunity came up to go uh work within local authorities directly.
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:09.920
And so I took it.
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:11.360
And you did what with them?
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:18.320
I started off, I think I managed the cycle training aspect for maybe eight months or a year.
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:24.079
Um, and then I started to move up more broadly into wider public realm projects.
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:46.159
Um, so that was things like town center pedestrianizations, um, low traffic neighborhoods, livable neighborhoods, primarily anything that was about number one, involving communities in the process of designing public spaces, and number two was about increasing or well, I should say, decreasing the dominance of cars within our streets.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:51.360
So then from there, you're you're working on these various projects for local authorities.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.119
And I mean, you've talked about kind of deciding to go part-time.
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.280
I mean, was that out of frustration with local authorities and how they worked?
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.480
You thought you could be the other side of the table and do a better job?
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:04.880
What was a decisive factor in that?
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:09.280
I actually had a phenomenal experience working within local authorities.
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:14.079
Um, there's a huge amount of mistrust within local communities that is completely valid.
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:21.599
And there's a huge amount of skill, goodwill, um, and strength within local authorities that is also valid.
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:26.559
But institutions of that scale and the way that they have to work are inherently problematic.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:32.000
And it's not the chief exec that's the problem, or this officer or that officer.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.840
Institutions at that scale are very challenging, unwieldy beasts.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:47.280
And where you get kind of institutional logic rubbing up against street logic, it's inevitable that local people are gonna completely wonder like, why the hell would a local authority doing this?
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:48.480
Why are they doing that?
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:53.679
Um, so in terms of what it was more of a pull.
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:54.719
It was more of a pull.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:58:11.679
I was having a good time and that, but I did this project in Lambeth where I was realizing that we were spending like five, six, maybe 10k on consultants to essentially develop a concept uh for a public space.
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:17.280
And what I thought is surely that money could go to the community and we'd wind up with a better design.
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:31.920
So I set up the public realm design competitions in Lambeth where people got paid to um develop ideas for how we could redesign their street to make them more walking and cycling friendly, make them less car dominated.
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:43.599
And I spent 18 months or so convincing the directors it was a good idea, getting all the budgets approved, setting up all the procurement for an organization that would be able to do it.
00:58:43.840 --> 00:59:02.079
And I had the kickoff meeting with the organization that, you know, I'd procured to be able to deliver this program that for me was the culmination of 18 months of work and was quite a profound movement towards empowering local people to design their spaces and reward them for their investment in that process.
00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:04.719
Um, and it was it was like meaty money as well.
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.119
We're not talking like£10 here,£10 there.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:18.559
You know, it was serious uh uh prizes in there because the budget was healthy, and that would have just gone to consultants traveling quite a long way in to a place that they are not otherwise familiar with.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:26.079
Anyway, I'm having this meeting and I can tell the people on the other side their vibe is like, you know, it's the worst part of their day.
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:31.440
They've got to meet this council bod to talk about this project that they want to do, but the fun bit is doing the work.
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:36.320
And I was sitting on the table thinking, I'm on the wrong side.
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:38.320
I'm just on the wrong side.
00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:44.400
Um, because it just doesn't make sense to me that the best part of my day is the worst part of the other person's day.
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:58.960
And knowing that I had the physical and practical skill set to do exactly what I was trying to get other people to do, um I just had to use my skill set to the best in that moment of time.
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:22.800
Because this is the problem I encountered is when we took on people's uh creative and community-led ideas for how they wanted to change their streets, we were then left with your tier one principal contractors that do your highways resurfacing, um, or soul traders that are super keen but aren't don't really have the compliance regime to be commissioned by a local authority.
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:40.639
And so it was pretty much like there and then where I was like, right, we need I would develop an organization that has the compliance regime and scale of a principal contractor, but with the dynamism of a soul trader to be able to be versatile enough to include people in the process of construction.
01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:47.920
Because across the design industry, it's come a huge way in terms of local participation in projects.
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:56.000
But up until recently, that really hasn't translated significantly or at any scale into inclusion within the actual build process.
01:00:56.239 --> 01:01:07.280
And there is just as much, if not more, opportunity to put your mark on a design as a local person, to develop skills that are going to be useful and transferable in your life.
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.159
And three is to develop a sense of ownership.
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:15.360
It's one thing to say that I put a word on a piece of post-it note while we were doing a co-design session.
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:18.000
It's another thing to say, I built that.
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:25.599
And what we try and do is give as many local people involved in the projects that we deliver the opportunity to walk past stuff and tell their family that I built that.
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:34.320
Does your background, your relationship with your father, but or say your relationship with your mother influence the types of projects you take on?
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:36.159
No doubt, no doubt, no doubt.
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:41.119
Um, I mean, access to beautiful things shouldn't be limited by your ability to pay for it, is my dad's ethos.
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:41.840
Right.
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:45.039
It's 100% my dad's ethos, Arthur de Mowbray.
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:46.239
Who still works with you, right?
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:48.880
He still works with us, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:57.760
Um and when he left London, I kind of picked up the mantle because I felt that it was wrong that his approach and his skill set no longer existed in London.
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:09.039
And I didn't really have the cathartic outlet of going to his workshop to be able to maintain my connection to making things, and that kind of all came together in that moment where I jumped ship from local authorities and set up yesmake.
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.480
Has it also given you this sense of drive that I detect in you?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:13.119
Do you think?
01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:14.320
Yeah, I mean 100%.
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:18.880
I'd say the best thing I got from my mum is the way that she deals with people.
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:20.880
I got to see the good and the bad.
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:23.679
You know, she would she would chat to anybody.
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:32.000
Um, and that conversation can go left or it can go right, and it's gonna go there at 100 miles an hour, and I was just doing nothing but learning.
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:38.159
And so I think I got a huge amount of social skills from the way my mum is for good and for bad.
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:48.400
And then from my dad, I mean, he he is so outrageously skilled, but I also saw a man that never made more than 12 grand a year.
01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:49.760
Why was that, Joel?
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:52.159
If he's that skilled, why wasn't he making any money?
01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:53.440
So this is why.
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:59.360
Let's say if anyone knows Crossbones Graveyard in uh London Bridge, borough.
01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:02.800
The client says we've got 6k to play with.
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:06.559
My dad wants to make the most beautiful thing that is possible.
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:09.599
And the 6k is almost irrelevant to that.
01:03:09.840 --> 01:03:15.039
And so he spent three months building the Goose Wing, which is absolutely stunning.
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:16.239
Give it a little Google.
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:17.199
Like it's stunning.
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:32.000
And if you're around when Crossbones is open, or if you're around on the 23rd of every single month at 7 p.m., the crossbones vigil is one of the most beautiful human connecting moments you could ever have with strangers in London.
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:33.360
It's not a religious thing.
01:03:33.519 --> 01:03:35.679
You just roll up, it's very expressive.
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:41.920
There's a couple of like typical beats, like things that happen every time, but it's such a phenomenal experience.
01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:44.880
Um, and dad built the the goose wing there.
01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:49.119
And he basically didn't really care about the money at all.
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:53.679
Basically, he just cared about doing the best job he could for the money didn't seem to matter.
01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:58.480
I think particularly for someone coming up from their 80s, always squatting, no overheads.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:03:59.360
You know what I mean?
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:04.000
It was a lifestyle that where you were able to just focus on your work and not really care about the money.
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:08.079
Obviously, for like our generation today, it's not really like that.
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:10.320
We can't really live for free these days.
01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:12.639
Um, well, unless you've got a parent to stay with.
01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:13.199
True.
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:18.239
So now I'm intrigued, this drive and family, beautiful houseboat.
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:22.079
I mean, it's it's you're keen to set up a very different kind of life, right?
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:29.199
Yeah, so um, I guess an ethos that was born out of my upbringing is the view that good work should pay well.
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:34.880
Um, and so you know, I'm not I'm not looking to make big bucks.
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:38.880
I just want to not be concerned about money as an issue.
01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:41.039
Um, I don't want to stress about money.
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:48.639
I think that's the plane that everybody should be aiming for is let's get to a place where we can live life without money being a constant stress.
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:50.800
I'm not there yet.
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:53.039
You and me both, Joel.
01:04:53.199 --> 01:04:54.159
Thank you so much for your time.
01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:56.960
This is the final question because I kept you quite a while.
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.800
Where do you see Tipping Point East and Yes Make?
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:03.840
Where do you see them both in in five years' time?
01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:05.440
What does the future hold?
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:33.360
Yeah, so if you're going to look at the future of regenerative infrastructure, and by that I mean uh locations, facilities that that house an interconnected offer that spans materials, programs, education, training, employment, all of the things that we need to be able to use the creation and recreation of the built environment to enhance our planet as opposed to destroy it.
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:48.480
Um if you look at, or if you were to envisage how prevalent that infrastructure needs to be, your best thing to do is to start off with the geography, distribution, and quantity of waste processing sites that currently exist.
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:52.719
Because at the moment, those are the facilities through which these materials travel.
01:05:52.880 --> 01:05:56.719
And we need them to travel through regenerative facilities.
01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:15.920
And so scale wise, we We, in the first instance, are aiming to get towards around three sites in London, um, equivalent in scale and facilities to Tipping Point East, so that we can triangulate the city because transport and distance is quite a big factor in material recovery.
01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:20.800
Um, and then we are looking very keenly on Manchester.
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:26.559
Um, because in terms of serving the country, Manchester is the heart of the country.
01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:32.239
And I was saying that before Andy Burnham turned up, but now it's even stronger.
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:40.559
Um, you know, for a long time I've thought the the kind of like London waiting in the way that the UK thinks is is a bit off.
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:48.400
Um so in five years' time, number one, I can tell you already we've been offered permanent homes elsewhere in London.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:56.960
And I would imagine within that five years we will be in completion of uh probably the largest of those sites.
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:04.639
Um it's a time in which uh number one, I hope to get to a place where we're paying for materials.
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:10.079
So at the moment, we recover materials at a reduced rate relative to what the waste cost would have been.
01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:14.559
Um and that means that people can save a bit of money.
01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.760
And for as long as you're saving a bit of money, that's helpful.
01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:25.840
But it's where you can actually, you know, for example, if a developer is going to get paid for every piece of glass coming out, they're gonna make sure that glass gets out.
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:33.920
Um whereas if they're getting a slight saving on what their waste cost would have been, it's a bit here or there.
01:07:34.079 --> 01:07:42.880
Um, so I want to get to a place where we've kind of mainstreamed the economics of circular practice so that it is just your default option.
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:44.639
Like, of course you're gonna do that.
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.480
Um number one.
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:54.800
Number two is I want to really scale out the skill set that surrounds it and the professional accreditations that are required.
01:07:55.119 --> 01:08:16.239
Number three is um I want to do away with the dominance of uh waste management plans and replace those with material recovery plans, which is where um you actually do a detailed assessment of how you get something out of a building, exactly how you transfer it from that site, the vehicles that you're going to use to do it, et cetera, et cetera.
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:23.520
Because right now on an architectural plan, you can write off 50 tons of materials by drawing one red line.
01:08:23.680 --> 01:08:25.840
And that's a lot of the time how it goes.
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:34.399
Um we want to get to a place where you put as much design investment into a demolition plan as you do into a proposed floor plan.
01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:45.840
And that only works for a developer to put that upfront investment in a demolition plan if they're recovering that cost on the other side through the value of those materials.
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:47.840
So that's where we'd like to get to.
01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:52.000
One final one is um compliance.
01:08:52.159 --> 01:09:01.119
So aiming to get to a point where we can provide a full compliance regime across all of the material categories that we hold so that they can be programmed into any building of any size.
01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:06.800
Because at the moment we're constrained uh kind of above 18-meter tall buildings.
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:13.760
It can be really challenging to be able to get materials specified into those buildings, particularly where they are like a part of the fabric of the building.
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.800
Furniture, no problem, carcassing, no problem.
01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:26.720
But if we're talking about the serious materials like your steel, your glass, etc., um, above 18 meters, it can be really challenging to get those specified in those contexts right now.
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:36.319
And we need to normalize a compliance regime that means that the fact it was used is a part of its history, but not a barrier to its future.
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:38.800
We'll see where we are in five years' time, Joel.
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:40.479
That was brilliant.
01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:41.760
Thank you so much for time.
01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:42.880
I really, really appreciate it.
01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:44.399
Thank you, and bye everybody.
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:45.760
Have a nice evening.
01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:56.159
To find out more about Joel and YesMake, go to yesmake.co.uk.
01:09:56.720 --> 01:10:09.199
You can also go to our website to hear other podcasts I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to find out all about Material Matters London, which runs from the 15th to the 17th of September at Unlock Shoreditch.
01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:11.600
So go to materialmatters.design.
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:14.560
That's materialmatters.design.
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:17.520
Come along, say hello, it would be great to see you.
01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:26.159
One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters.
01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:36.159
For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world.
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:14.880
Hello and welcome to a new series of material matters with Grant Gibson in association with our thought leadership partner Berghouse.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:25.359
This is a podcast where I talk to a designer, maker, artist, or architect about a material or technique with which they're intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their life and career.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.399
Think of it as a bit like Desert Island discs, but with materials instead of music.
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:40.479
And to kick the new season off, I'm delighted to talk to Joel DeMaubray.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:49.840
Joel is the founding director of Yes Make, which, according to his website, is a regenerative design and build practice saving high-quality materials from going to waste.
00:00:50.079 --> 00:01:03.679
Earlier this year, the company joined forces with the Resolve Collective and material matters favourites Material Cultures to launch Tipping Point East in East London, a circular construction hub that aims to divert tons of material from going to Lamville.
00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.799
Joel, thank you very much for doing this.
00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:09.920
How are you?
00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:11.680
Thanks for having me on, Guan.
00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.280
I'm a big fan of the podcast, and I'm flying today, so let's do this.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:16.000
Okay, good.
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:16.319
Good.
00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:18.560
I don't think I've ever had a guest tell me that they're flying.
00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:20.079
This is very good news, however.
00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:23.359
You've obviously heard the podcast before, which is great.
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:29.519
And in that case, you'll know we have a kind of long-standing tradition of asking people about their workshop or studio.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:34.159
The notion being that you can learn quite a lot about someone by their working environment.
00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:39.680
Now, my feeling is that we're going to discover quite a bit about you from this particular question.
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:42.719
However, I'm looking at the screen.
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You're not in your studio right now.
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.319
Tell me where you are right now.
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So I'm at home.
00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.239
Um at home for me is a boat.
00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:55.760
Quite a beautiful 19 let me just check what that sign says.
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1931, she was built.
00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:00.560
1931, wow.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:26.639
And she was a Dunkirk little ship in the Battle of Dunkirk when they were bringing folks back over from the beach over there, and brought 140 soldiers back from uh the beaches in Dunkirk, and has travelled many a life since then, and then me and my family moved in here about four years ago because we were on another boat on the tidal Thames in Battersea, and we had some kids, and that really messed up with the space.
00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:34.319
So we needed a bit more space, and so we found our way onto this beautiful boat in uh an absolutely idyllic part of London.
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Can you tell me where?
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.800
Yeah, so we're Greenland Dock in Surrey Keys.
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:40.000
Okay, very nice.
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:50.560
Which means I can see one way and it's just trees and water, and I look the other way and it's just canary wharf towers, and so it means I can pick and choose as to what view I want to enjoy.
00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.240
How old are your kids, Joel?
00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:56.560
I got a two and a five, um, which is a paradise.
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You know, we're kind of through the trenches stage where they just need everything of you whilst they continually try and hurt themselves without thinking about it.
00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:09.360
Into that stage where I'm starting to feel like this isn't going to be forever unless enjoy every moment.
00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:11.360
So it's a very beautiful time.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:18.960
And I mean, they won't know any better, I suppose, but houseboat life with children must be interesting, I guess, sometimes.
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They have a very engaged attitude to risk.
00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:24.240
Yeah.
00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.199
And more and more each day I trust them.
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Right.
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:35.039
And so the five-year-old, she'll bob over to the neighbour's boats and come and go, kind of as she pleases.
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The two-year-old, she's getting there, but we keep her close for now.
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Yeah.
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When do you decide that you can let them go looser on a houseboat?
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I wish that was my choice.
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Yeah, okay.
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:48.719
A lot of the time it's their choice.
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You know what I mean?
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:54.800
They go and and after a while, you just develop the trust to stop following them a little bit.
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Yeah.
00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:56.400
Um, it's a balance.
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It's a balance.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.919
It's also pretty linked to how competent they are at swimming.
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I can imagine.
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.599
Yeah.
00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:04.719
I mean, they're not wearing life jackets the whole time, presumably.
00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:05.439
You know what?
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.319
I'm sure many parents experience this is like the first time around, you're tense, you're anxious.
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:15.039
You know, I mean, we wanted to have Noah in life jacket every time she was out and about.
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And then by the time the second one came along, that belt really loosened off.
00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:21.040
Um, you know how it goes.
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Yes, I remember that vaguely.
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It's a long, long time ago since I was in your situation.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:25.279
But yeah.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:27.680
And so now we're reasonably free range.
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We're blessed to have a community around us here that keep tabs on each other.
00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:38.879
You know, if if the kids are roaming free beyond the freedom that we allow, any one of our neighbours is also going to pick them up on that.
00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:39.600
That's good.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.759
Okay, so that's a houseboat sorted.
00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.600
So let's pretend that you're in your studio now.
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:54.560
Perhaps don't tell me who you work with quite yet, but maybe just describe your studio for listeners because you're on this former industrial estate.
00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:55.439
Yeah.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.519
Um, we're on a site in the Royal Docks.
00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:07.920
Um nearest station is Pontoon Dock on the DLR for people to help kind of with the geography near the Excel centre.
00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:13.040
And it really represents the wild west of industrial sites that I grew up in.
00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:18.160
And for me, that carries a lot of love, even if for a lot of people it's a bit rough around the edges.
00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.959
But that's the part of London that I truly, truly love.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:52.319
So let's say you're coming in, you're gonna come down through these really industrial feeling large palisade gates past uh excavators and tractors and diggers and um mountains of curbstones and uh everything that our neighbours deal with through down into Tipping Point East, where you've got kind of quite a lot of architectural beauty that we've started to allow to flourish in some of the ways that we're adapting this site to meet our needs today.
00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:59.920
And so at Tipping Point East, we started with the office build-out, which allowed ourselves and our partners to be able to have a base to work from.
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:09.680
We then worked to strip out the area that Resolve Collective operate the material store from, which is a spectacular uh thing in its own right.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:22.240
And now we've progressed to restoring a former asbestos factory, which is going to be our warehouse as well as our factory space for all of the work that we do across quite a wide range of activities.
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.120
Yeah, yeah.
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.720
Because it's at the moment it's what, 8,000 square meters of space you've got?
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:35.839
Yeah, we've got about eight and a half thousand uh metres of space, about two thousand of which are indoors, with the remainder as uh exterior yard space.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:36.319
Right.
00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.959
One thing you haven't mentioned is the planes flying overhead.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:39.759
Yeah, we're next.
00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:41.759
It's very close to City Airport, right?
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:53.680
We're right next to City Airport, and I I look at those planes as cover fire because we're gonna be making a bag of noise, and for as long as the area is used to a bag of noise, hopefully we'll make good neighbours of ourselves.
00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:59.920
Tell me about the office part of your studio, because it's quite intriguing, the materials it's made from.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:13.519
Yeah, so um, you know, we're three organizations coming together with very limited resources to put to transforming this largely abandoned industrial estate into something that we can call home.
00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:18.240
And so by necessity, really, that starts with working with what you've got.
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:23.199
And we're fortunate enough that we actually have quite a lot when it comes to materials.
00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:35.839
So at the time, we'd taken around 40 tons of cross-laminated timber from a building in Berkeley Square where subfloors would have been removed to open up the building and bring light through it.
00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:50.079
And so naturally, we look at the primary materials that we have available to us as the starting point for how we start to develop an architectural format that is going to serve the needs of the space and create something really beautiful.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:08:06.480
And so that led to the front wall of the new office space being composed primarily of that CLT, complemented and supplemented by internal glazed partitions that we relaminated ourselves to create insulated glazed units.
00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:15.680
Um, the lining of those timbers all came from the VA Fashion Gallery with the sills coming from commercial office space in Victoria.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:22.160
And then as you get into the actual office space itself, the floors came from the former set of Bridgerton.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.720
Uh, the kitchen was formerly Elton John's.
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:26.000
Elton John's kitchen.
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:27.680
I thought I'd ask.
00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:28.480
We want to know.
00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.480
How do you get Elton John's old kitchen?
00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.759
I mean, in this world is all sorts of crazy connections.
00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:46.960
And um, there aren't too many people that do what we do, so when stuff is going into a skip primarily, and there are people around that stuff that would prefer it went to a productive use, these things find their way to us.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:51.759
And so someone approached us asking the question, and it was a very easy yes.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.840
It's tremendously purple, isn't it?
00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:55.519
It's tremendously purple, yeah.
00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:56.960
Bang on the money.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.399
And to date, we've only really used about a third of it.
00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:11.200
Um, because I think the space that the kitchen occupied was slightly more generous than what we've got available to us at Tipping Point East, so there's still two-thirds of Elton John's kitchen going if anyone needs it.
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.240
It was also a building control thing.
00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:23.039
They wouldn't let us have so that the kitchen used to have a deep fat fryer, a barbecue, and a griddle integrated into the work surfaces.
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.159
And unfortunately, we couldn't swing that with building control.
00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:26.720
Yeah.
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.200
It gives you some sense of what his diet might be.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:30.879
I mean, it sounds delicious.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:31.759
It does.
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:33.759
It does.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:34.480
It does.
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.399
Well, we'll talk about the history of YesMake a little later, I suspect.
00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:43.279
But in the first instance, it would be good to know what the company actually does.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.480
Because it it fills an interesting kind of niche, I think.
00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:47.279
Yeah.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:54.240
And actually, we've kind of made our niche in doing all the things that are a bit too difficult for any mainstream company to do.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:05.039
Um, in the respect that I was observing a lot of the ways in which construction and architecture and structural engineering and all of the associated disciplines around it practice.
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:39.120
And I could really see that the over-segmentation of these disciplines meant that any one company within the process of producing the built environment didn't really have the scope or the incentive to tackle all of these things that fall between the gaps and materialize as the insane negative externalities of the construction industry, whether that is the 10 million tons of material waste in London alone, or whether it's simply the inability to engage and to involve local people in the process of creating the built environment.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:47.039
And so we operate as a four-part system, those four parts being materials, design, make, and build.
00:10:47.679 --> 00:11:02.320
So on the material side, we primarily collaborate with film and TV, cultural institutions, and the built environment sector to recover really high-quality, if not brand new, materials that would otherwise go into a skip.
00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:25.759
And we use those with our team that spans ecology, landscape architects, structural engineering, and more mainstream architecture to be able to apply these materials either in their existing format or adaptively into slightly different uses where it cannot be kind of imposed exactly as it formerly was in its first use.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:35.039
Then make operates at the object, furniture, and small structure scale to directly make with and for local communities.
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:43.200
So that means getting people on the tools with us, both within the design process as well as within the on-site construction process.
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.799
And then at build, we operate as a principal contractor.
00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:55.279
Up to the kind of mid-size development scale, primarily your kind of two and three stories of building is about where we cap out.
00:11:55.600 --> 00:12:04.639
But then we do a lot of work in the cultural space, designing and building exhibitions, um, public spaces as well as buildings.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:12.159
For us, I set up YesMake with the ethos that access to beautiful things shouldn't be limited by your ability to pay for it.
00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:19.600
Um tired of a built environment and a public realm that basically said we don't really trust you with nice things.
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:33.600
Um we primarily focus on public spaces, public exhibitions, anything that is going to allow Londoners and anyone from this area to be able to enjoy these spaces without a paywall.
00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.200
So you talked about the skills that your team have.
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:38.720
How big is your team, Joel?
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:40.480
It sounds like you're covering a lot of turf.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.399
Yeah, there's about 13 of us.
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:43.840
So not massive in that case.
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:44.639
No, no, no.
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:45.840
We do a lot with a little.
00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:52.559
We are going to be hiring um between six and nine new people over the next three months.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:13:01.679
Um and so that is going to need to grow because this particular moment that you find us in is quite uh a massive transition, really.
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:12.799
Um, you know, we've gone from a 150-meter square workshop set in a community garden in South East London to now having 8,500 metres squared with a 1200 meter square factory.
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.240
You know, it's almost a 10 times increase in our capacity.
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:26.480
And so um we've got to a point with our existing team where we're doing the most, and now it's time to really bulk up that capacity for what's to come.
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:27.200
Okay.
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:34.320
So let's get into tipping point east properly in that case, because it opened officially what a couple of months ago, really.
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:35.440
About March.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:36.559
About March, okay.
00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:37.840
So three or four months ago.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:48.159
You share the space we've indicated with the Resolve Collective, which is a design collective that works with art institutions, cultural institutions in the main to reuse their waste.
00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.919
There's also material cultures, friend of this podcast.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.240
We've had Summer Islam on the show.
00:13:54.399 --> 00:14:00.399
It's an architectural practice that, as its name suggests, has a profound interest in how we use materials.
00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:04.399
So how did the three of you get together in the first instance?
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:06.879
I think you've known Resolve Collective for a while, right?
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:18.960
In a previous life, I worked within local authority context delivering both policy uh in the kind of planning and transport space and public realm space, as well as directly delivering projects.
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:29.679
And I worked with Seth from Resolve Collective at Lambeth Council, and it was actually Seth that put it on my radar that I could even consider setting up my own practice, really.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:37.279
Because I bumped into Seth and his brother Kil in Max's bar in Brixton on like a Friday night, tipping away on their laptops.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:38.399
I was like, What are you guys doing?
00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:40.240
It's the weekend, like, why are you working?
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:47.840
And they told me about Resolve Collective, and it was within like two weeks, I was like, right, I'm going part-time, I'm getting to it.
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:53.200
Because I'd realised at that point that I was sitting on the wrong side of the table, being within a local authority.
00:14:53.360 --> 00:15:05.600
You know, I think as a young man, that context really increased the scale of what I was capable of doing because of the resources, the context, the kind of the powers and the communities that they serve.
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:17.440
And then I'd hit a point about seven, eight years later, where actually this was really limiting what I was able to do because of a lot of the institutional baggage and just the process of doing anything in a local authority context.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:19.279
So you've met the Resolve Collective.
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.840
How did Material Cultures relationship come about?
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:31.440
So at the time, Resolve had been evicted from their studio in Croydon, and they were squatting with Material Cultures over uh in East London.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:40.080
And Material Cultures had done a research piece for Newham Council about the establishment of circular economy construction hubs.
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.039
So naturally, there was a conversation to be had.
00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:52.799
And when I reached out to them, uh, we were just, it was an exploratory one, but from the jump, the connection was really, really clear and obvious.
00:15:52.960 --> 00:16:26.879
And when you combine our specialisms around material recovery and applying those materials into new projects to create a circular economy with their experience and skill set around bioregional construction added to the redistributive and to the social model of Resolve Collective, you start to get a really, really solid piece of regenerative infrastructure that's able to serve this city at scale and start to transform what has been narrative for a long time into practice.
00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:34.799
And that's what got us really, really, really excited, where tipping point east now represents something that is far greater than the sum of its parts.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.200
And how will you dovetail?
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:45.120
I mean, are you gonna all just do your separate projects and you happen to be sharing a space, or are you working, you know, very much cheat by jowl, working together?
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.759
So I'd say there's about three answers to that.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:59.919
So number one is just like the in the mix, like peer-to-peer, being around each other, supporting each other in the work that we're doing is phenomenal just on a day-to-day level.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:01.919
Like I love going to work.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:05.519
Um, and I hope everybody else feels the same way too.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.359
And we support each other in that.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.680
Um, number one, number two, we work together on loads.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:25.039
Um and where, for example, let's say there's a cultural institution that is removing an exhibition, there's going to be a vast body of material that is appropriate to us and a vast body of material that's appropriate to resolve.
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:36.880
And when we join forces in that way, we can really put everything that's coming out of these institutions to good use, as opposed to on our own, there'd be things that Resolve can't take, or there'd be things that we can't take.
00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:38.240
So that's quite interesting.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:43.119
I don't know, pull out an example, but maybe you walk into a cultural institution, what are Resolve going to take?
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:44.000
What are you going to take?
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:45.440
What is the difference between the two?
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:53.279
Resolve Collective are really interested in the creative capacity and potential of objects in their current form.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:08.640
Um and we're really interested in materials that allow us to replace dependence on virgin materials to be able to really create the entire envelope and interior fit out of buildings, public spaces, etc.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:16.799
And so, say, for example, you've got a museum that's completely stripping out, you know, like a stone floor.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.960
We would take all of that stone, we would take all of those timber floorboards, etc.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.279
There's going to be showcases in there.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.079
And those showcases don't necessarily make sense to us.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.799
They are not intuitively a construction material.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:44.480
But for Resolve, they're an incredible asset to their community in being a suitable format that they can immediately display their work to a much higher level than they would have been able to without kind of, you know, 10 grand showcases that would otherwise be binned off.
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.200
So you've come together and you have this site in Silvertown, Newham, East London.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:53.359
And it's an area, as you've pointed out, that has some challenges.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:55.039
There's a lot of building work going on.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.920
I think they're planning to build 7,000 new houses over the next decade.
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.240
So can we talk a little bit about the area you're in and why did it appeal?
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:05.599
A couple of reasons.
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.519
Number one, space.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:14.720
You know, if you're coming by 8,500 metres square space in London, there probably aren't too many areas you can look to.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.279
And so East London has that space for us.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:34.960
And whilst we're in an 8,500 metres square footprint right now, there's neighbouring sites that bring that up to around 25,000 meters squared that we're working with the landowners of that space right now to bring that forward for our use, to be able to extend the capacity of Tipping Point East.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.160
So number one is the space.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.599
The space is phenomenal.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:53.680
And the buildings that were there, uh, whilst dilapidated former asbestos factories that have had pigeons as the main residence for 40 years, actually had the capacity and the potential to house this vision in a way that we could realize.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.559
Number two is we're just off North Willich Road.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:04.559
That's a major strategic route situated near aggregate sites, situated near waste processing sites, near city airport.
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:17.920
So, in terms of the context, the strategic road network that supports that area means it's an appropriate place for us to be doing large-scale material collections and deliveries without imposing on an area that otherwise might have been a sleepy village.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.559
One of the greatest assets is the background noise.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.480
Whilst it might not be helpful to record a podcast, hence why you find me here.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.680
In a boat, yeah.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:33.119
Yeah, it's a real asset to, you know, because the last thing I want to do is roll up on a neighborhood and start making noise that is not welcome.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.240
Sure.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.680
So how did you find the site?
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.440
Were you driving about London's industrial wastelands trying to find somewhere?
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:40.079
How did that work?
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.240
Just like the best things, it found me.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:42.799
Okay.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:21:00.880
So I had uh someone from the GLA reached out because uh following the report that Newham had done on the creation of circular economy construction hubs, Newham had been lobbying the GLA to put these vacant sites to good use to support the circular economy.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.079
And so at that time they did a call out for organizations that would be interested in taking on that space.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:15.920
And I think the first time I visited the site, there was maybe 10, 20, maybe even as many as 30 different organizations that were also invited to view the site.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.599
And particularly the former asbestos factory.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:25.839
Uh, everyone, everyone really turned off at that point and was like, this is a bit of a hopeless one.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:34.880
Um, but for me, as a builder, I was looking at this, seeing a couple of problems that are no great feat for us to resolve.
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.880
And I thought the main thing is it has the capacity to serve that vision that we're working towards.
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:48.720
And so it was from then really that I started talking to Material Cultures and Resolve Collective about like let's get moving on this.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, and it was probably about eight months of developing the business plan, the proposal, all of the supporting documentation and evidence that you need to be able to present the facts.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:06.400
You're a viable group of organizations, despite being small, together we had the capacity to take this site on.
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.759
And public engagement, it seems to me, is something important that you do.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.000
You want people to come in and see what it is you're doing.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:12.960
Yeah, 100%.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:20.480
So, you know, for us, and each organization, Material Cultures Resolve Collective and ourselves, will have their own answer to this.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.359
Um, but for us, the answer is a couple of things.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.039
Number one, we follow a process called material-led design.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:35.039
When we get a brief for a project, we will do a lap of our materials and it will reveal exactly what this project wants to be.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.000
Um, that is designing from the materials you have.
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.559
You know, I call it cooking from what's in the fridge.
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.640
And you can't really do that if no one's letting you look in the fridge.
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.200
Yeah.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:46.799
Don't want to look in my fridge, Joel.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.079
There's nothing in it.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:50.319
Bar of moldy cheese, but move on.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.200
I get the analogy.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:52.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:58.400
And so you can't exactly promote material-led design, but then not invite people down to come and see the materials.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:21.039
Um so for us, it's super important to get designers reconnected to the materiality of their work so that they can start designing with what is available as opposed to what is a more prevalent practice of uh leading with kind of an architectural or an artistic concept where material is secondary to what you may want to do.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.440
Whereas actually, the material holds so much more potential.
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:35.200
As you know, far from a constraint, it's such a ridiculously awesome opportunity to build in probably a better spec than what might be achievable before.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:54.720
Um, probably something with a far richer character and story to it, things with patina and love and history to them, um, and a story and an impact that means that when you're creating a building, it's not about offsetting the damage that that building has done, but it's inherently a building that does good.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.200
You have the three separate parties doing their own thing but coming together from time to time.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:05.279
You have engagement with the industry who can come in and see stuff, the public who can come in and see stuff.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.319
You've got a five-year lease from the mayor of London.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.359
How do you fund it?
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.640
Are you self-funding this?
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.680
How does it work?
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.240
Yeah, and I tell you, that's probably been one of the hardest parts of the journey.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:39.200
Up until last Friday, when I got a good bit of news, it was entirely self-funded, hand to mouth, you know, delivering projects kind of on average 5 to 35k, and just reinvesting everything that came through those projects back into, well, for the longest time, legal fees to get that lease over the line.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:50.000
Um, and more recently into the restorative works to the building, um, the physical infrastructure that we need, and the digital back end that we need to operate this efficiently.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:54.000
So it has been a tense one.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:00.960
Any business owners listening um will always have cash flow on their mind.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:13.680
And particularly in getting the lease for tipping point over the line, and then those early days of developing our infrastructure, yeah, it was it it was it was it was real tight.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:20.000
Um and the financial management around that is is tricky.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:26.240
But recently we received a grant that really does lift a lot of that challenge from us.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:31.279
Um, but I would remiss not to highlight a couple of bits of funding that we did get.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:41.680
So we got through Newham Council uh£105,000 that went towards the build of the office space.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:55.359
And that was uh an Innovate UK project that wanted to advance earlier funding rounds that they'd had that developed the theory of circular practice with the ability to express that through a completed building.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.160
Hope you're enjoying the show.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:03.440
This is just to remind you that our big fair, Material Matters London, is opening very soon.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:10.319
It runs from the 15th to the 17th of September at Unlock Shoreditch and is part of Shoreditch Design Week.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:11.839
There's lots to look out for.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:22.480
Berghouse, our official thought leadership partner, will be front of centre of our Cafe Conversations Talk Series, for instance, and you'll be glad to hear that the Legroni Talks will also return.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:29.119
Elsewhere, there are installations from the British Council, Matrix Design, the Wood Awards, and the Only Natural Awards.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.680
Front and biotech company Biomason have joined forces to unveil Mimic Tile, a floor and wall tile that grows with the help of bacteria.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.640
The Ore Foundation, based in Ghana, will be showing pieces made from post-consumer clothing waste.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:54.559
Fallen and felled repurposes felled urban trees into hardwood furniture, and Carbon Cell presents its plastic-free alternative to polymer-based foams made with carbon-negative biochar.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.599
I could go on.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.759
Frankly, it's a very long list of extraordinary people doing fascinating things.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.640
Material Matters London is free to attend for trade, but it's vital you register.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:08.880
And you can do that at our website, materialmatters.design.
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.960
That's materialmatters.
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:27.519
So your aim is to divert an estimated, and there are different figures, so you you might have to pick me up on the figures, but 15,000 tonnes of material from landfill over the next five years, which is the length of your lease.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.839
How do you go about doing that?
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.720
What's your plan?
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:31.839
Big question.
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:44.319
First of all, when I was doing it, so we've got a decent amount of space, but the scale of the waste issue means that there's almost no amount of space we could have in London that means that we can just remove space as a constraint.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:50.480
So the first thing I did was went about kind of strategically positioning where can we have the biggest impact.
00:27:50.720 --> 00:28:01.039
And so I was looking at the embodied carbon content of materials coming out through the built environment sector in particular, and the volumes of those materials coming out.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:11.440
Because it's not just about, oh, I don't know, steel has really high embodied carbon, but there's very little of it coming out as a hypothetical.
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:18.720
You know, it was about embodied carbon times volume gets you the greatest impact in environmental terms as to what we could achieve.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.920
And so that meant quite a heavy focus on steel, timber, and glass.
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:36.160
Um, and so I started with that as a kind of the strategic priorities that reflected the greatest volumes of waste arising from the construction sector in London with the greatest embodied carbon impact.
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.559
And so that was the starting point for establishing what I wanted to prioritize.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:51.519
But then what happens is when you go into 11-story, 16-story, 36-story uh demolition sites, they're not just picking out timber, steel, and glass.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.200
There's a, you know, an absolute plethora of other materials that come out.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.400
And so when the rubber hits the road, you adapt.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:14.079
And so that kind of drove me to broaden out the categories that we would take, because number one, if you're just going to isolate it down to timber, steel, and glass, you're probably going to have capacity in some of those loads for the other materials that are available.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:20.640
And if we're sending a 26-ton lorry to go and collect materials, any air in that lorry is a loss.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:34.480
Um, and so if it means uh that there's 240 perfectly good accessible toilets in a building that have been installed four years ago, I'd be an idiot to say no to that.
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:58.720
Um and so at this point in time, we cover everything from facades, and there are contexts where we're taking entire buildings at this point in time, through to sanitary wear, kitchens, cabinets, um, your dimensional timber, structural steel, lightweight steel, electrical components such as lighting, switches, sockets, etc.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.440
Um, because I can't put it clear enough.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.559
The aim is to turn buildings back into buildings.
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:24.240
And that's one thing that's come out of the woodwork is when someone asks us for, let's say, some two by six timber and some sheet stock because they're building a wall, they're gonna need emergency fire signage, they're gonna need an accessible toilet, they're gonna need all of those uh building control packages that otherwise get forgotten about.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.000
Are there things you can't recycle?
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.920
Just to be panickety on it.
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.359
So we don't do any recycling.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.480
Reuse, let's say.
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:31.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.960
Thanks for picking me up.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:33.839
No pleasure.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:40.720
Um so plaster board, um, we just can't use it for two reasons.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.000
Number one, it very rarely comes out in a usable format.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.920
And number two is I talk about something called value density.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:58.799
So for us, let's say you're filling a 26-ton lorry off a construction site with materials that you intend to reuse, the value density of those materials is really crucial.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:11.519
Um, if a cubic meter of steel can run you 1200 pounds, whereas a cubic meter of plaster board might be worth 240 quid, uh, that's a very different proposition.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:21.119
And so for plaster board in particular, the deconstruction methods and the value density don't currently stack up to make it a viable material for us to recover.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.119
And equally, we can't do everything.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.119
You know, we do have to draw some boundaries.
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.200
And so plaster board is one of them.
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:34.400
And the second main category today that I'm hoping to change is firedors, particularly 60-minute-rated fire doors.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.759
More of a compliance reason than anything to do with the material itself.
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:39.680
That did come up in all the research I've done.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.559
Fire doors, I suppose it's obvious, but why fire doors?
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.000
What's the problem around fire doors?
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.440
Fire doors, they are a safety critical element of a building.
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.319
So naturally and for good reason, the compliance requirements surrounding them are going to be far higher.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:07.680
Um, and without a full kind of material passport associated with the doors that we take on, we simply cannot validate for the next user that that fire door is still rated as it's required to be.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:08.400
Number one.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.440
Number two, a fire door is not a door.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:17.440
A fire door is a system, and that system includes the doors and the frame.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:33.119
And in terms of the way that those are constructed and removed and transported, we cannot take uh and they cannot really be removed effectively or efficiently to remove the entire frame with the doors intact.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:43.759
And so where that is a building system as opposed to a building component, you know, the door is the component, the system is the door, the hinge is the frame.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:33:05.359
Now, we're working towards a place where we can be accredited for the inspection, maintenance, and installation of fire doors, at which point we can create new collections of components that allow us to recertify a complete system as a suitable fire door, but it's a journey and that doesn't happen on day one.
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.000
No, no, you've alluded to quite a bit of it there.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.680
But what are the challenges of reuse of construction waste?
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:16.400
I mean, presumably regulation, which you're talking about, and timing, I guess.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:23.359
Yeah, so I guess to start with um materials, let's bring it back to materials.
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:30.400
Every single material that we handle is near on a different business in of itself.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:41.279
Every single material has completely different characteristics, completely different compliance requirements, handling methods, removal methods, uh, and demand profiles.
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.640
So number one is recognizing that difference.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:59.200
Um and I think that's partly why where there are existing organizations that do salvage or reuse, say raised access flooring, for example, they just do one material and they do it great, and that's brilliant.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:06.880
But you need, and essentially, we have a business model of business models, if you know mean, almost like a macro business model.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:21.280
So how we think about the establishment of new material flows so that it's not um so it's a system that can be adaptive to materials as they arise and work out exactly how that operates in business terms.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.480
But you asked a broader question, remind me the other parts too.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.880
Yeah, it's the challenges of reuse.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:27.519
Challenges.
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:29.119
Timing, I'm guessing.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.480
Getting into projects.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.920
So yeah, there's the material side, and then timing is a big factor.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:50.880
What we're doing out here is threading needles time-wise, absolutely threading needles, because the scale of materials for us today has progressed from what I would describe as the object scale, a piece of wood, a door, a window, um, through to the building scale.
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:59.599
So that is six meter by three and a half meter facade panels and all of the structural steel that support those hundreds of facade panels to compose a building.
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:03.760
And that is not something you can have lying around for a long amount of time.
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:09.599
And so we've got really, really, really good at threading needles.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:23.280
And that is having early sight of what is arising, coordinating that with demand for that material, and making sure that we are able to preferably not even land it at our site.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.239
Um, but otherwise, we generally try and turn materials around in about eight weeks.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.039
Interesting.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.320
In your experience, does the industry want to change?
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:34.079
I'm wondering how you go about changing it.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.800
Is it enough to appeal to the industry's hearts?
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:40.880
Presumably, it's more effective to appeal to their wallets.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.440
What are the economics of your model, Joel?
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:48.960
The presumption often is, correctly or incorrectly, that reusing materials is somehow going to be more expensive.
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.000
Yeah, so does the industry want to change?
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:56.159
Obviously, no industry is a singular.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:06.239
What I'd say is across the built environment sector, cultural institutions, film and TV, there is a universal recognition of the issue, for sure.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:13.280
Um there are more concentrated efforts towards change within particular pockets of these industries.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:22.800
Um, obviously, the rise of sustainability in as an industry in of itself has has given way to a lot of that more mainstream knowledge of the problem.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:31.039
Um I'd say the commercial case is still the strongest driver of decision making.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.199
And I don't say that as a critique, like let's be practical with it.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:43.199
Um, if you're running a business and you need to make sure that your people are still employed at the end of the day, the commercial case has to has to play out.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:37:11.360
Now, as we get onto the preconception of circular practice over linear practice, this is where nuance is very important because as I say, different materials have different handling methods, have different characteristics, and therefore the economics of is circular more expensive or less expensive uh than uh conventional disposal really is down to the material that we're talking about.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.079
Um, so I can hit you with some examples if you like.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:15.840
Go on, hit me with an example.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:19.519
So this is where you need to think on a systems level.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:29.039
And as I was describing earlier, where the scope of influence of any one uh contractor within the process is a little bit too small to be able to look at it as an overall system.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.480
So, internal glazed partitions, for example.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.039
Um, any commercial office space coming out has hundreds of them.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:53.280
You I'm sure everybody listened to this as walked past a glass meeting room, and not necessarily considered that that glass meeting room is like 15 panels that each weigh upward of 100 kilos with an embodied carbon factor of up to 2.4, depending on the buildup of the glass.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:57.840
Um so for 100 kilos, that's 240 kilos of embodied carbon.
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:33.280
Um now conventionally you would go through there with uh wheelie bins, so industrial wheelie bins, uh, and a lump hammer, and you would smash it up into little bits, they'd go into the wheelie bin, and then you'd have fleets of primarily uh men trying to get into what is normally a pedestrian lift with these wheelie bins, so that they can get it down to the first floor where almost every time there'll be a gantry that oversales the pavement, oversales the road, so that a 40-yard weight and load skip can come and those wheelie bins can be tipped off.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:46.400
Now, if you're comparing the labor that it takes to remove a panel and lay it flat with the labor that it takes to hit that glass with a hammer, you'd have an easy case for saying, I think I'll hit it with a hammer.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:39:01.039
But if you look at the full process that's involved in terms of taking it back down to ground level, doing all of that disposal in the bin, plus the transport cost and the waste disposal cost of getting rid of it, it's quite a different situation economically.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:11.199
We operate so that that glass is stacked on the floor, and then we wait for when the facade of that building is coming off so that those materials can be hoisted off en masse.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.360
So out of a floor, we can take all of those panels from the floor in one stack.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:24.320
And so we're working with demo contractors where they are just laying those panels and we use the old off-cut carpet tiles between each piece of glass to protect it.
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:29.119
Um, gets nicely strapped, and then that can be lowered directly onto a vehicle.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:35.840
Um, obviously, uh, definitely got to give credit to Sangoban and uh their reuse program for glass.
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:42.800
And so there are ways that glass it doesn't go to waste, but um, there are still quite uh big challenges around that.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:47.679
So any fire rated glass, for example, cannot be recycled because of its boron content.
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:54.800
Um, another example, fire doors, uh, or let's call it internal doors to avoid the fire thing.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.400
Because we do take fire doors, we just don't sell them as fire doors.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.079
They're still a perfectly good door.
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:00.400
Yeah.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.920
Conventional process, take it off as hinges, lay it on the flat, cut it into small pieces that fit in the wheelie bin, then same process.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:12.159
In the lift, down to the first, over the gantry, into the 40 yard.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:13.599
Same again.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:25.360
We take it off uh the hinges, strip all the metalwork so that it's a flat blank, and that way we can get 20 to 30 doors in one nice neat stack, depending on the weight capacity that we're working with for each load.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:38.880
And when you compare those two things, you're saving about 20 to 30 percent on labor time relative to what it would have been to be cutting that up, sticking it in a bin, waiting for the lift, getting down there.
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:45.360
But at the moment, the challenge is that a lot of that difference is quite invisible, it's quite blurry within the process.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:56.880
Um, and so where we're working with contractors on material recovery plans, which is the way that we work, to develop a plan for exactly what removal and reuse looks like for each material.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.639
We get our contractors now to do a comparative time difference.
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:20.159
So, where there are items that we cannot take, we'll get them to do the standard smash bin dispose method and time that in comparison to the materials that we can take so that we can start to have a really solid evidence base that can communicate to people that actually it can be quicker, it can be cheaper.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:27.679
Um, because if we're collecting materials, you're not encountering exactly the same level of waste charge that you would if you were just doing conventional disposal.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.320
Can we talk about you and YesMake and how it started?
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.119
Because you initially co-founded the company with Morgan DeSilva, what, six years ago, 2020.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.920
You were working, as you said, for Lambeth Council.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.880
How did you go from Lambeth to starting the company?
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:51.199
I mean, you mentioned the side hustle, but was there a moment when it stopped being a side hustle and started becoming actually, I'm gonna make a career out of this?
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:53.679
Yeah, it did, it did, it did.
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.800
So that moment was just after I built something called the Arc in Lewisham.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:03.039
It was only ever supposed to be there for a year during COVID.
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:13.199
Um, and in the end, it was there for five years until it was recently replaced with a permanent scheme in where it used to be.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:20.000
And off the back of that, we got some unreal jobs in Waterloo and with the Tate Modern.
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.360
And uh all of those were about three months down the line.
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.960
I was looking at a two-month notice period and thought, right, it's gotta happen.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:28.000
It's gotta happen.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:29.920
And so it was quite an easy jump in the end.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.880
Because you started reclaiming wood, right?
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:35.119
I mean, this this is how the company began.
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.800
When you've got nothing, you find what you need.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.280
Yeah.
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:40.960
And that's where it started from.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:49.679
So the first project that I did was with Resolve, and it was your conventional skip dive, get what you need, cobble it together.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:43:01.360
Um then uh I started working with tree surgeons that were pulling down trees all over London, and we converted a 1980s electric milk float to be able to take those trees.
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:06.400
Because the biggest problem was the fact that the cost of transport was greater than the material value.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:14.320
So our model was right, how do we resolve that transport cost so that there's still a business in recovering the material?
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:23.039
Um, so we were able to take between three and four tons on the milk float, and we put fitted it with a timber arch, uh, kind of Macromona style.
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.159
If anyone knows who he is, Google it if you don't.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:31.199
Um and started milling that to make dimensional timber.
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.800
And, you know, I could have had a happy life in that space.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:36.320
We were having a great time.
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:44.960
Uh, but as soon as I had a reputation for being able to use timber, you get invited to construction sites to reuse timber that was on those sites.
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:51.920
And then as soon as I was in that context, you know, I felt good, we were doing good things, like yes, we were putting these trees to good use.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:59.760
But as soon as you walk into a construction site and actually get the visual of the scale of waste that is in existence, particularly female.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:02.559
Feeling like I was someone that could do something about it.
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:11.199
I couldn't help feeling like we were just tinkering around the edges, having a lovely time, when actually there was a really serious issue here that we should be looking at addressing.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:19.920
So this is how it's changed in that six years in that case, going from tinkering around the edges to being properly embedded in the construction industry.
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:35.360
Yeah, and and the wonderful thing about the position that we occupied is that we're not a demolition contractor, we're not an architecture practice, we're not a structural engineering practice, we're not any of the kind of mainstream disciplines.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:49.920
And that meant that we traveled through all of these spaces, interacting with them in the way that we work, and it kind of gave us a really, really, really unique viewpoint within and across the entire sector.
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:57.119
And it was that viewpoint that I think gave the potential to realize what could be possible.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:07.039
If actually you created an entity that could span these, you know, interconnected but very segmented disciplines.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:14.159
Because every time we were invited to a site, they were trying to solve exactly the same problem as the last site that we'd been to.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:25.599
Um, of how, and and you know, for example, with the circular economy, it's quite heavily dominated with uh the intention of reusing your own materials within your own project.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:33.920
And you know, we were accounting the the business case just doesn't stack up because you've got the material, you need to store it, you need someone to process it.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:45.119
It has to pass through so many hands that it completely undermines the ability of reusing that material for anything more than the kind of environmental ethics of it.
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:58.159
And when you realize that demo contractors want to reduce their waste bill, developers want to be able to meet planning obligations and really deliver on the sustainability objectives that they have.
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:07.679
Architects really want, again, to address the climate issue that we face, and engineers really want to reduce the waste that exists.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:18.480
You know, I spoke to so many engineers that are just gutted that basically what they're doing is just specifying meter cubes of concrete to be plowed in whilst, you know, engaging.
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:25.599
Because I think architects, structural engineers as a discipline, I think are particularly sensitive to things around the climate crisis.
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:44.400
I think because of their professional engagement with both environments and materials and uh ecosystems, it means that they have a level of awareness probably more than you might if you're in the music industry, if you're in an industry that isn't connected to the earth quite in the same way.
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:54.159
Um and so observing the fact that all of these industries were trying to solve all of the same problems kind of in their own pocket of isolation.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:16.559
And the fact that it didn't stack up on a small scale made it quite obvious to me that what we needed to do was consolidate the solutions to these problems into a physical piece of infrastructure that where on a project-by-project level it doesn't stack up, you can agglomerate those different projects to be able to create an infrastructure that actually can do that at scale.
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:23.360
Did you therefore always have a plan when you finish the arc and you got these new contracts coming in from Tate Bond, etc.?
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:25.760
Did you see yourself being where you are now?
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:27.519
Shall I tell you where this started?
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.320
Go on.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:35.519
So Morgan was previously working managing solar installations in LA.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.239
Me and him, we go way back, we went to college together, we were just catching up, kicking it.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:46.480
And I started with the objective of creating really beautiful public spaces.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:51.360
Um, we should have a beautiful public realm in which everybody feels special.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.559
When me and Morgs were talking, and I invited him to join us, we were doing a landscaping project at the time.
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:59.920
And, you know, when you're on a shovel, you've got plenty of time to talk.
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:05.519
You know, you can, and then that's the beauty of physical work, is it really enables a lot of very beautiful conversations.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:20.480
And we were talking about the fact that we could do completely environmentally friendly solar structures um that were both beautiful and practical for solar installations.
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:24.239
And to this day, we have not done one of those.
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:26.800
We have not done a single one.
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:27.920
So that was the plan.
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:28.719
That was the plan.
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.280
That was the plan.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.440
We were going to be doing solar structures, and like I say, we we didn't even do a single one.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.679
Um, life had other plans.
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:50.000
And so for me, I you know, I have a pretty pretty big vision as to what we can achieve here that spans uh beyond the environmental impact to economic and social aspects of what we're striving for.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:57.199
But I'm equally a very pragmatic person that will adapt to the opportunities and challenges that arise.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:08.000
And so what I tell you today is the plan, if you ask me the same question in two years, I bet I'll be sitting here almost unable to recognize the answer that I gave.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:11.039
Well, you wait to my last question in that case, Joel.
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:20.320
I mean, it'd be good to know a little bit about your background because you have this kind of intriguing range of skills from making to town planning.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:24.400
You told the Guardian that you were a bit of a lost boy growing up.
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:25.840
What did you mean by that?
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:28.880
Number one, we lived in London pretty nomadically.
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:35.440
Like with my mum, we either got evicted, we had house fires, we were in temporary accommodation constantly.
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:40.719
Um, at school, I was a yellow shirt kid, you know, that laundry was not getting done.
00:49:41.039 --> 00:50:03.519
Um and so you can, you know, particularly when you come from that kind of version of poverty, number one, particularly when you're surrounded by young people that are more affluent than you, number two, and you know, it's it's very easy to feel or to think that you are worthless.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:12.800
Um and I'd say up until I was 16, I didn't really have a sense of purpose, didn't have a sense of self-worth.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:17.679
Um, and I think lost boy is bang on, bang on the money.
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:24.400
Um and I'd say that that is not a condition that is unique to people that grew up in the circumstances that I grew up in.
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:37.599
I think until people develop either a core skill or something that they identify with as giving them power or purpose, whoever you are, wherever you come from, it's easy to feel that way.
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:41.440
And uh for me, it was it was bike mechanics.
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.519
Um so I mean, I I ran businesses from the jump.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:50.320
Um, I set up my first business sanding and re-varnishing people's dining tables.
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.280
Um and that was good work.
00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:59.679
The fact that these people were allowing a child to come into their house with power tools like that is mad to me these days.
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:01.599
But you know, that was a long time ago.
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:03.280
So, how old were you when you were doing that?
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:05.199
I was about 13, 14.
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:06.400
Wow, okay, wow.
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:13.440
And the first one I did, right, first one I did, you know, I knew how to use a belt sander, I knew how to sand.
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:18.719
What I didn't realize is that doing that in someone's house would really dust up the kitchen.
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:25.920
Um and so the first one I did, I had to probably spend longer cleaning the kitchen than I did doing the table.
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.639
And then so after that, I got myself a little murder tent.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:30.400
Uh, forgive the phrase, you know what I mean.
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:31.280
Like a little gazebo.
00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:31.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:36.000
And I'd build a gazebo around the table to contain the dust and lesson learned.
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:36.400
Yeah.
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.440
But making was obviously always important to you.
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.280
Your father is a carpenter, right?
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:42.400
That's right, that's right.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:50.320
So while we were with my mum, it was a very precarious and kind of terrible situation for the most part.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:54.880
With my dad, we'd we he'd pick us up on Thursday nights and we'd see him every other weekend.
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.239
And he uh lived above his workshop in Peckham.
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:13.119
And so when I was there, I'd just be getting number one, you know, tucked into whatever I wanted to make, whether it was like a ball or a lightsaber or uh a little car or uh robot wars uh models and stuff like that.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.440
And so I'd be in the workshop making stuff, sometimes with dad, sometimes on my own.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:20.880
And then I'd be jumping on with the tools with him when I was coming up.
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:26.960
So from about six, seven, eight-ish, if dad was on a job, that's where I wanted to be.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:36.000
Um, and it started out, I'd just be making sure that like if dad drills a hole, I know I'm gonna put a screw in it before he gets back to that hole with a drill or with a driver.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:36.960
Do you know what I mean?
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:41.119
I was just looking for any way I could find myself being useful on site.
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:48.960
And then I started going into more formal construction sites from maybe 16, you know, doing small scale building.
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:51.440
This isn't with your dad, this is independently now.
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:52.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:54.880
That was with like small house building contractors.
00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:55.519
Right, right.
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.480
So yeah, I mean, from the jump, I've always made stuff.
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:04.719
I mean, my dad built our house and I was helping him as much as I could when I was, what was that, 10 years old, 12 years old.
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:06.559
So I've always been around making.
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:11.920
I've always had this like urge to be as useful within making as I possibly can be.
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:24.719
Um, and then what happened was around maybe 20, maybe 21 years old, um I knew I loved it, but I was looking for some stability.
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:31.920
And I kind of, I don't know, I wanted a life that had stability, that had holiday pay, that had a monthly income.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:33.599
Like I was not looking to be poor anymore.
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:36.639
I was looking to be legit in the world.
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:40.000
And so that's what drew me into the local authority context.
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:42.239
Because didn't you start as a cycling instructor?
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:43.440
Was that not your first job?
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.320
So when I was, well, I've had many first jobs.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:50.800
First job was actually servicing carburetors at a motorbike shop when I was way too young.
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.840
A pivotal job then, let's say, the cycling instructor.
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:55.440
Definitely, definitely, definitely.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:03.679
Because number one, I had a skill that was useful to other people and I could serve the world in a way that gave me a sense of purpose, a sense of value.
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:12.559
And also, you know, like I was saying about moving around when I was growing up, my whole world could be ripped away with no like immediately, you know.
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.800
Um, we would move on a dime like that.
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.519
If something happened with my mum, we'd just move immediately.
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:19.599
Can I ask about your mum?
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:23.199
I mean, this is about poverty, or was it were there other things going on with your mother?
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:28.719
In like diagnosis terms, it's considered today to be called schizoaffective disorder.
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:29.119
Right.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:33.440
Most people would be like more familiar with the terms like bipolar schizophrenia.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:36.800
Um, so she'd have a lot of delusions.
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:52.480
You know, she'd believe that the neighbor downstairs was trying to rob her or trying to murder her, and that would either result in like a physical location or building damage or something that would wind up in probably her getting arrested, us getting moved on, and just repeat, repeat, repeat.
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:59.119
But it's the fact that my my whole world could be pulled away in a heartbeat, but you could not take the skill away from me.
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.960
And I knew from that point that I could take that skill anywhere and I'd be fine.
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:07.760
Obviously, they don't need too many cycling instructors in Holland, so maybe not everywhere.
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:11.840
But how did you go from cycling instructor into the local authorities?
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:12.559
Gotcha.
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:22.480
So um I think it was leading towards 2012, 2013, 2014, London was getting proper serious about doing real cycling infrastructure.
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:25.840
You know, it wasn't going to be a green paint anymore, it was going to be some proper stuff.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:38.239
And so they were bringing cycling instructors into the process of designing streets because they wanted the people that teach cycling to be able to support the creation of infrastructure that we would teach people to use.
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:50.079
Because genuinely, before the new version of cycle lanes that we have today, we had to teach people not to use cycle lanes because it specifically put people on the left-hand side of vehicles at junctions.
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.119
It's, you know, it's exactly the wrong place to be.
00:55:53.440 --> 00:56:02.639
Um, so I started uh with the organization I was working with, supporting local authorities and TFL around cycling design standards.
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:08.960
And then the opportunity came up to go uh work within local authorities directly.
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:09.920
And so I took it.
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:11.360
And you did what with them?
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:18.320
I started off, I think I managed the cycle training aspect for maybe eight months or a year.
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:24.079
Um, and then I started to move up more broadly into wider public realm projects.
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:46.159
Um, so that was things like town center pedestrianizations, um, low traffic neighborhoods, livable neighborhoods, primarily anything that was about number one, involving communities in the process of designing public spaces, and number two was about increasing or well, I should say, decreasing the dominance of cars within our streets.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:51.360
So then from there, you're you're working on these various projects for local authorities.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.119
And I mean, you've talked about kind of deciding to go part-time.
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.280
I mean, was that out of frustration with local authorities and how they worked?
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.480
You thought you could be the other side of the table and do a better job?
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:04.880
What was a decisive factor in that?
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:09.280
I actually had a phenomenal experience working within local authorities.
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:14.079
Um, there's a huge amount of mistrust within local communities that is completely valid.
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:21.599
And there's a huge amount of skill, goodwill, um, and strength within local authorities that is also valid.
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:26.559
But institutions of that scale and the way that they have to work are inherently problematic.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:32.000
And it's not the chief exec that's the problem, or this officer or that officer.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.840
Institutions at that scale are very challenging, unwieldy beasts.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:47.280
And where you get kind of institutional logic rubbing up against street logic, it's inevitable that local people are gonna completely wonder like, why the hell would a local authority doing this?
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:48.480
Why are they doing that?
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:53.679
Um, so in terms of what it was more of a pull.
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:54.719
It was more of a pull.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:58:11.679
I was having a good time and that, but I did this project in Lambeth where I was realizing that we were spending like five, six, maybe 10k on consultants to essentially develop a concept uh for a public space.
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:17.280
And what I thought is surely that money could go to the community and we'd wind up with a better design.
00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:31.920
So I set up the public realm design competitions in Lambeth where people got paid to um develop ideas for how we could redesign their street to make them more walking and cycling friendly, make them less car dominated.
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:43.599
And I spent 18 months or so convincing the directors it was a good idea, getting all the budgets approved, setting up all the procurement for an organization that would be able to do it.
00:58:43.840 --> 00:59:02.079
And I had the kickoff meeting with the organization that, you know, I'd procured to be able to deliver this program that for me was the culmination of 18 months of work and was quite a profound movement towards empowering local people to design their spaces and reward them for their investment in that process.
00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:04.719
Um, and it was it was like meaty money as well.
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.119
We're not talking like£10 here,£10 there.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:18.559
You know, it was serious uh uh prizes in there because the budget was healthy, and that would have just gone to consultants traveling quite a long way in to a place that they are not otherwise familiar with.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:26.079
Anyway, I'm having this meeting and I can tell the people on the other side their vibe is like, you know, it's the worst part of their day.
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:31.440
They've got to meet this council bod to talk about this project that they want to do, but the fun bit is doing the work.
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:36.320
And I was sitting on the table thinking, I'm on the wrong side.
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:38.320
I'm just on the wrong side.
00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:44.400
Um, because it just doesn't make sense to me that the best part of my day is the worst part of the other person's day.
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:58.960
And knowing that I had the physical and practical skill set to do exactly what I was trying to get other people to do, um I just had to use my skill set to the best in that moment of time.
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:22.800
Because this is the problem I encountered is when we took on people's uh creative and community-led ideas for how they wanted to change their streets, we were then left with your tier one principal contractors that do your highways resurfacing, um, or soul traders that are super keen but aren't don't really have the compliance regime to be commissioned by a local authority.
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:40.639
And so it was pretty much like there and then where I was like, right, we need I would develop an organization that has the compliance regime and scale of a principal contractor, but with the dynamism of a soul trader to be able to be versatile enough to include people in the process of construction.
01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:47.920
Because across the design industry, it's come a huge way in terms of local participation in projects.
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:56.000
But up until recently, that really hasn't translated significantly or at any scale into inclusion within the actual build process.
01:00:56.239 --> 01:01:07.280
And there is just as much, if not more, opportunity to put your mark on a design as a local person, to develop skills that are going to be useful and transferable in your life.
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.159
And three is to develop a sense of ownership.
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:15.360
It's one thing to say that I put a word on a piece of post-it note while we were doing a co-design session.
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:18.000
It's another thing to say, I built that.
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:25.599
And what we try and do is give as many local people involved in the projects that we deliver the opportunity to walk past stuff and tell their family that I built that.
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:34.320
Does your background, your relationship with your father, but or say your relationship with your mother influence the types of projects you take on?
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:36.159
No doubt, no doubt, no doubt.
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:41.119
Um, I mean, access to beautiful things shouldn't be limited by your ability to pay for it, is my dad's ethos.
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:41.840
Right.
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:45.039
It's 100% my dad's ethos, Arthur de Mowbray.
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:46.239
Who still works with you, right?
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:48.880
He still works with us, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:57.760
Um and when he left London, I kind of picked up the mantle because I felt that it was wrong that his approach and his skill set no longer existed in London.
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:09.039
And I didn't really have the cathartic outlet of going to his workshop to be able to maintain my connection to making things, and that kind of all came together in that moment where I jumped ship from local authorities and set up yesmake.
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.480
Has it also given you this sense of drive that I detect in you?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:13.119
Do you think?
01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:14.320
Yeah, I mean 100%.
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:18.880
I'd say the best thing I got from my mum is the way that she deals with people.
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:20.880
I got to see the good and the bad.
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:23.679
You know, she would she would chat to anybody.
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:32.000
Um, and that conversation can go left or it can go right, and it's gonna go there at 100 miles an hour, and I was just doing nothing but learning.
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:38.159
And so I think I got a huge amount of social skills from the way my mum is for good and for bad.
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:48.400
And then from my dad, I mean, he he is so outrageously skilled, but I also saw a man that never made more than 12 grand a year.
01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:49.760
Why was that, Joel?
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:52.159
If he's that skilled, why wasn't he making any money?
01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:53.440
So this is why.
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:59.360
Let's say if anyone knows Crossbones Graveyard in uh London Bridge, borough.
01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:02.800
The client says we've got 6k to play with.
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:06.559
My dad wants to make the most beautiful thing that is possible.
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:09.599
And the 6k is almost irrelevant to that.
01:03:09.840 --> 01:03:15.039
And so he spent three months building the Goose Wing, which is absolutely stunning.
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:16.239
Give it a little Google.
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:17.199
Like it's stunning.
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:32.000
And if you're around when Crossbones is open, or if you're around on the 23rd of every single month at 7 p.m., the crossbones vigil is one of the most beautiful human connecting moments you could ever have with strangers in London.
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:33.360
It's not a religious thing.
01:03:33.519 --> 01:03:35.679
You just roll up, it's very expressive.
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:41.920
There's a couple of like typical beats, like things that happen every time, but it's such a phenomenal experience.
01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:44.880
Um, and dad built the the goose wing there.
01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:49.119
And he basically didn't really care about the money at all.
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:53.679
Basically, he just cared about doing the best job he could for the money didn't seem to matter.
01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:58.480
I think particularly for someone coming up from their 80s, always squatting, no overheads.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:03:59.360
You know what I mean?
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:04.000
It was a lifestyle that where you were able to just focus on your work and not really care about the money.
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:08.079
Obviously, for like our generation today, it's not really like that.
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:10.320
We can't really live for free these days.
01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:12.639
Um, well, unless you've got a parent to stay with.
01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:13.199
True.
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:18.239
So now I'm intrigued, this drive and family, beautiful houseboat.
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:22.079
I mean, it's it's you're keen to set up a very different kind of life, right?
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:29.199
Yeah, so um, I guess an ethos that was born out of my upbringing is the view that good work should pay well.
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:34.880
Um, and so you know, I'm not I'm not looking to make big bucks.
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:38.880
I just want to not be concerned about money as an issue.
01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:41.039
Um, I don't want to stress about money.
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:48.639
I think that's the plane that everybody should be aiming for is let's get to a place where we can live life without money being a constant stress.
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:50.800
I'm not there yet.
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:53.039
You and me both, Joel.
01:04:53.199 --> 01:04:54.159
Thank you so much for your time.
01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:56.960
This is the final question because I kept you quite a while.
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.800
Where do you see Tipping Point East and Yes Make?
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:03.840
Where do you see them both in in five years' time?
01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:05.440
What does the future hold?
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:33.360
Yeah, so if you're going to look at the future of regenerative infrastructure, and by that I mean uh locations, facilities that that house an interconnected offer that spans materials, programs, education, training, employment, all of the things that we need to be able to use the creation and recreation of the built environment to enhance our planet as opposed to destroy it.
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:48.480
Um if you look at, or if you were to envisage how prevalent that infrastructure needs to be, your best thing to do is to start off with the geography, distribution, and quantity of waste processing sites that currently exist.
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:52.719
Because at the moment, those are the facilities through which these materials travel.
01:05:52.880 --> 01:05:56.719
And we need them to travel through regenerative facilities.
01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:15.920
And so scale wise, we We, in the first instance, are aiming to get towards around three sites in London, um, equivalent in scale and facilities to Tipping Point East, so that we can triangulate the city because transport and distance is quite a big factor in material recovery.
01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:20.800
Um, and then we are looking very keenly on Manchester.
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:26.559
Um, because in terms of serving the country, Manchester is the heart of the country.
01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:32.239
And I was saying that before Andy Burnham turned up, but now it's even stronger.
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:40.559
Um, you know, for a long time I've thought the the kind of like London waiting in the way that the UK thinks is is a bit off.
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:48.400
Um so in five years' time, number one, I can tell you already we've been offered permanent homes elsewhere in London.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:56.960
And I would imagine within that five years we will be in completion of uh probably the largest of those sites.
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:04.639
Um it's a time in which uh number one, I hope to get to a place where we're paying for materials.
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:10.079
So at the moment, we recover materials at a reduced rate relative to what the waste cost would have been.
01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:14.559
Um and that means that people can save a bit of money.
01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.760
And for as long as you're saving a bit of money, that's helpful.
01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:25.840
But it's where you can actually, you know, for example, if a developer is going to get paid for every piece of glass coming out, they're gonna make sure that glass gets out.
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:33.920
Um whereas if they're getting a slight saving on what their waste cost would have been, it's a bit here or there.
01:07:34.079 --> 01:07:42.880
Um, so I want to get to a place where we've kind of mainstreamed the economics of circular practice so that it is just your default option.
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:44.639
Like, of course you're gonna do that.
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.480
Um number one.
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:54.800
Number two is I want to really scale out the skill set that surrounds it and the professional accreditations that are required.
01:07:55.119 --> 01:08:16.239
Number three is um I want to do away with the dominance of uh waste management plans and replace those with material recovery plans, which is where um you actually do a detailed assessment of how you get something out of a building, exactly how you transfer it from that site, the vehicles that you're going to use to do it, et cetera, et cetera.
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:23.520
Because right now on an architectural plan, you can write off 50 tons of materials by drawing one red line.
01:08:23.680 --> 01:08:25.840
And that's a lot of the time how it goes.
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:34.399
Um we want to get to a place where you put as much design investment into a demolition plan as you do into a proposed floor plan.
01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:45.840
And that only works for a developer to put that upfront investment in a demolition plan if they're recovering that cost on the other side through the value of those materials.
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:47.840
So that's where we'd like to get to.
01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:52.000
One final one is um compliance.
01:08:52.159 --> 01:09:01.119
So aiming to get to a point where we can provide a full compliance regime across all of the material categories that we hold so that they can be programmed into any building of any size.
01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:06.800
Because at the moment we're constrained uh kind of above 18-meter tall buildings.
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:13.760
It can be really challenging to be able to get materials specified into those buildings, particularly where they are like a part of the fabric of the building.
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:16.800
Furniture, no problem, carcassing, no problem.
01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:26.720
But if we're talking about the serious materials like your steel, your glass, etc., um, above 18 meters, it can be really challenging to get those specified in those contexts right now.
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:36.319
And we need to normalize a compliance regime that means that the fact it was used is a part of its history, but not a barrier to its future.
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:38.800
We'll see where we are in five years' time, Joel.
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:40.479
That was brilliant.
01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:41.760
Thank you so much for time.
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I really, really appreciate it.
01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:44.399
Thank you, and bye everybody.
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:45.760
Have a nice evening.
01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:56.159
To find out more about Joel and YesMake, go to yesmake.co.uk.
01:09:56.720 --> 01:10:09.199
You can also go to our website to hear other podcasts I've done, to sign up to our newsletter, and to find out all about Material Matters London, which runs from the 15th to the 17th of September at Unlock Shoreditch.
01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:11.600
So go to materialmatters.design.
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:14.560
That's materialmatters.design.
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:17.520
Come along, say hello, it would be great to see you.
01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:26.159
One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com forward slash material matters.
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For as little as£3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various Material Matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world.
