240: Make the Machines Get You with Jason Barnard

Jason Barnard, Founder and CEO of Kalicube, is driven by a passion to help “make the machines get you” by controlling how search engines and AI platforms perceive and represent you online.

We learn about Jason’s transformation from being known as a cartoon blue dog to becoming a recognized digital marketing expert. He explains his Kalicube Process, a three-phase framework that includes Understandability, Credibility, and Deliverability. This process helps people and organizations build a consistent and accurate online presence. He emphasizes the power of controlling one’s digital footprint and provides practical strategies for future-proofing digital search strategies across platforms like Google, Bing, and ChatGPT.

Good day, dear listeners, Steve Preda here with the Management Blueprint podcast. And my guest today is Jason Barnard, the founder and CEO of Kalicube, a digital marketing agency that helps business leaders future-proof their digital search strategy. Jason, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much, Steve. I’m delighted to be here helping business leaders with their digital search strategy for their corporation or for themselves with their personal brand.

Okay, that’s awesome. So let’s start our conversation with your personal “Why.” So why are you doing this? Why did you come up with this idea? And how do you manifest your personal “Why” through the work you do?

Well, the “Why” of how I got here is because I realized that we all have multi-facets as people and as corporations, and that machines like Google don’t necessarily understand what the most important facet is today. And my example was that I was a voiceover artist for a cartoon blue dog, and Google presented Jason Barnard as a cartoon blue dog when you search for my name. And I realized that I could influence how Google perceives me and therefore how it represents me.

Then I realized once I’ve done that, I got it to represent me as a digital marketer and an entrepreneur now, rather than as a cartoon blue dog. I realized that by changing Google’s perception of me and its representation of me, I could change Microsoft Bing’s perception of me and representation of me. And then when Generative AI, ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Gemini all came out, they all represented me the same way. And I realized that the strategy is universal. How do I change the perception of the knowledge algorithms of the big tech companies, change their perception so they represent me the way I want?

How do I get control of their representation of me? And the big “Why” is this is so hugely powerful, so hugely important to us all, to each and every person on this planet, but especially to people who care about their personal brand or their corporate brand.

I wanted to share it with everybody because I think it's valuable, I think it's helpful, and I wanna be a helpful person.
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Yeah, I mean, it makes sense you want to be represented the way that you want people to see you. But do people actually know how they want people to see them? Do they articulate this to themselves most of the time?

Yeah, that is a huge problem. Some people come to us and say, I would like you to help me to get the machines, Google, ChatGPT, Perplexity, Microsoft Bing, to represent me the way I want. And then I ask them, how do you want to be represented? And the answer is, I don’t really know. At which point we then send them to a partner who will help them figure out exactly what it is they’re communicating and who they’re communicating it to, who is their audience, so that they can then come back to us and we can make sure they’re represented the way they want. So once you’ve decided how you want to be perceived and represented to your audience, then come and see us.

Okay, so you actually developed a framework you call The Kalicube Process, which actually helps people achieve that goal. So what are the phases of this framework and how can people apply it?

Great question, but you already know the answer and I’ll share it with the audience. There are three phases. I like everything in threes. If it’s in three, I understand it, people understand it, it’s how our brains function, and interestingly enough, it’s how the knowledge algorithms all function. So when you think in threes, you’re going to communicate in threes and you’re going to make these machines understand.

But you’ll also make your audience understand because as human beings, we feel naturally comfortable with a three. And we will remember threes, whereas if there’s a fourth, we probably won’t remember it, and if there’s only two, we get confused. So threes are great. Three phases of the Kalicube process, understandability, credibility, deliverability. And that is how you need to build your personal brand or your corporate brand online. And we’ve been talking about machines a lot, the big tech knowledge algorithms, Google, Bing, Perplexity, ChatGPT. But in fact, the way you get these machines to understand you and represent you the way you want is by walking the walk and representing yourself correctly and accurately and consistently to your human audience.

All these machines are doing is reflecting what they see online. So if they see you in a particular context with a particular audience, doing a particular thing and serving that audience, they will represent you the way they see you. So you need to walk the walk and that’s the secret of The Kalicube Process.

Can you give me an example how that works? So for example, Kalicube maybe is an example or maybe you can pick another one. What is the intention and what do you do to create that perception?

Right. Great question. I’ll use myself as an example. Understandability. Google understood me to be a blue dog in a cartoon. I needed to change its perception of me, its understanding of me, so it would represent me the way I want it today. So in order to gain that understandability from the machine, what I needed to do was build a consistent message about myself that I communicate and focus on standing where my audience is looking.

So at the time I started a lot of the content about me was on IMDB, MusicBrainz, Spotify, because I was this cartoon blue dog and I needed to remove my efforts on those, so they still exist but I don’t focus on them, and increase my focus on Forbes.com, Search Engine Land, YouTube, giving content that’s all about digital marketing and entrepreneurship, which meant I was standing where my audience was looking. Google saw that I was standing where my audience is looking, that particular audience, then represents me the way that it sees me.

But the true key, and this is the big, big takeaway from this, is the Entity Home. And the Entity Home is a website that represents me. And the key to changing Google’s perception and changing the way that I communicate as well with my audience is having a website of my own, jasonbarnard.com. And at that point, I can set out the facts in their order of importance and say, well, let’s focus on me as an entrepreneur. Then we can talk about me as a digital marketer. And then thirdly, we talk about me as a blue dog. That allows me to control the message I’m giving to my audience and to Google. And then I can put links to all the different places that corroborate what it is I’m saying, so that both my audience and Google can go out to those places and confirm that other people agree that I’m a digital marketer now and not a blue dog.

Okay, so you said that the first one is the understandability. So you have to be able to articulate what the desired perception is, and then all the search engines, they have to understand what that is so that they can convey it to the audience, to the outside world, right? So what’s the second phase?

Really interesting point there, then we come to the second phase by communicating clearly and consistently with my audience across my entire digital ecosystem, I’m communicating with my audience who I am and what I do and that I can serve them. And Google’s seeing that, then representing me to its audience, its users. So I’m actually expanding my audience with that. So I’m getting the wind from expressing myself clearly, consistently across my entire digital ecosystem to my existing audience.

Then I get Google to replicate it, to represent me the way I want, and introduce me to a new audience, the additional audience that it has that I don’t. So Google becomes this kind of bonus. ChatGPT is a bonus. So that’s understandability. If they don’t understand who you are, what you do, and which audience you serve, they can’t evaluate your credibility. And that’s the second phase. How do I demonstrate my credibility? First of all, how do I demonstrate my credibility to my audience? So wherever I’m standing, where my audience is looking, I need to demonstrate to them that I’m a credible solution. And that might be my qualifications, my degree in economics. It might be that I’ve got 66 years cumulative company existence. I’ve made three companies, 66 years in existence, always profitable.

That’s credible. That makes me authoritative, credible, reasonably believable as an entrepreneur. I write for Search Engine Land, I write for Forbes.com, I write for SEMrush, that’s credibility. And one thing that people often fail to realize is they don’t express that regularly and consistently across their entire digital ecosystem to their audience. So you need to do that and then make sure the machines, the knowledge algorithms, Google, ChatGPT, Bing, all understand that same thing. So I say, express your credibility or authority to doing this to your audience, then package it for the machines so they understand too. So who are you? What do you do? Who do you serve? Step one. Why are you credible, authoritative, trustworthy? Step two. That’s credibility.

That’s credibility. And then you started talking about packaging it.

Yes.

Is that the third phase when you package it?

No, you need to package as you go along. So the understandability is stand where your audience is looking, package it for Google. Credibility, demonstrate your audience you’re an authoritative, credible solution for them, trustworthy, package that for Google. The third is deliverability, which is make sure you have relevant content that serves the user’s need wherever they’re standing in the format.

So right content, right format, right time for the right person.
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If you can do that and package that for Google as well, then you’ve built that entire digital ecosystem that makes sense to you as a business person or somebody who wants to stand out from the crowd in your industry and for the search engines and assistive engines like ChatGPT in the future. So, understandability, credibility, and deliverability is stand where your audience is looking, demonstrate your credibility, and give them the valuable content they need in the right format at the right time, package that entire thing for Google, ChatGPT, Bing, and so on and so forth, and they will reward you with an additional audience, which is the subset of their users who are your true audience. You’ve nailed it. That’s the solution to digital marketing, and I’ve explained it in less than 10 minutes.

So, let’s get a little bit deeper there. So when you say packaging it for YouTube or Google or any other search engines so that they can obey to the larger world, which will then create a bigger audience for you. So what is the process of packaging? What does it mean, packaging?

Well, I’m sure everybody has heard of SEO, search engine optimization. Search engine optimization is often presented as this huge solution to all of your digital marketing problems, that it will bring you lots of people to your website, you will make lots of sales, and some companies and people have built their entire business around the idea that Google will send them traffic, and therefore sales. Packaging for Google is SEO. SEO is simply the way that you ensure that these machines can find, digest, and believe in your content.

So SEO is simply a way of packaging your branding, your marketing, your understandability, your credibility for the machines. If you take a step back from SEO, and I think a lot of people, especially in the SEO industry, don’t do this, and say, well, SEO isn’t a thing in and of itself. It doesn’t exist without content. It doesn’t exist without a brand. It doesn’t exist without marketing materials. It exists as a way to communicate with machines, and those machines are simply an intermediary between me and my ideal audience. I’m asking the machines to recommend me to the subset of their users who are my audience.

So I have to communicate to them why, who I am, why they should recommend me, and give them the material, the content to recommend me. So who am I? Am I credible? Can I give you the content that allows you to serve the subset of your users who are my audience.

Okay. So you package it. So for Google, it’s SEO. Did you mention SEL as well? Or did I misunderstand?

At Search Engine Land, the media platform, I write articles for them. It’s a way for me to demonstrate my expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness within the SEO space.

Okay. Okay. That’s SEL.

So you’re asking a very good question But the thing is I talked to somebody the other day and they were saying I’ve got myself sorted in Google. Google understands me and represents me the way I want, I have a knowledge panel, which is the information box on a search on my name and I’m happy. And now I’ve got to develop a strategy for ChatGPT, too, which I answered you shouldn’t have a different strategy for ChatGPT because all of these machines functioning exactly the same way. Understandability, deliverability, and credibility. So if you’ve done it for one and you’ve done it properly, you shouldn’t need to do it for the others differently. It’s one single universal strategy for all the machines, for all people, for anybody, and it’s future-proof because they all function the same way and they will not change the way they function from now on.

 If I want to do this and I’m thinking of myself, okay, I have a business, I do something, I do certain things, I want the market to understand what I’m doing, then don’t I just communicate what I’m doing and in the way that I think is understandable and it’s going to automatically happen? Or there is something else that needs to be done with my content to make it more understandable for these search engines?

Yeah, great question. The answer is yes, you can just guess. And you’ll probably guess quite well. If you’re smart, you’ll know who you serve, how to serve them, how to represent yourself, and you’ll write and express yourself in a way that makes sense to machines and to your human audience. Number one is you won’t know that the machines understand. We can tell you with our database, the platform, the SaaS software you mentioned earlier on, we measure this.

We measure do the machines understand what you're saying.
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We can do that before you release your content because we have tools that allow us to analyze how the machine interprets what you’ve written. And then we can do it afterwards by the KPIs we use, which is how they represent you. If they’re not representing you right, we know they haven’t understood. And that’s either because you’ve expressed yourself badly or because you’re expressing yourself in the wrong places or because you’re sending a confused message and you’re not consistent those are the three reasons once again that was a three.

Okay, so what does it take the third phase that you mentioned we talked about understandability, the machines have to understand it as humans, of course, credibility, you have to have all the, it could be testimonials, or you’re appearing in the right places, or having the right kind of credibility pieces, whatever they are. So you build up the credibility and then deliverability. So the deliverability, is it distinct from the machine’s understanding? Is it the same thing or that’s a third thing?

Right, which is a great question because deliverability is all about expanding your content. Understandability is standing in the right places. Credibility is communicate why people and machines should trust you. Deliverability is then expand that out with the content that provides the solution, whilst making sure you continue to maintain the understandability by being consistent and continuing to stand in the right places. Build your credibility by reiterating your credibility within the content you’re creating and make sure you’re creating all of the content that now answers all of the questions all the way down the funnel. Because your audience need all of the answers all the way down the funnel and the machines, ChatGPT, Google, Bing, need all of that information in order to present you to their users. Because all they’re doing today is recreating the funnel. They’re trying to get the user to the perfect click.

The perfect click is the moment when somebody clicks on a link, goes to the page, buys or converts, whatever the conversion might be.
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And their aim is to answer every question on the way down. So your aim is to get them to introduce you to the conversation they’re having with the person, recommend you as a potential solution, and then advise the person that you have the perfect click. So if you look at that, it’s a funnel. And if you look at it from our perspective, understandability is that final piece of advice. The credibility is recommending you as a potential solution. The deliverability is introducing to the conversation because it has the content to do so. So the deliverability is top of funnel. Credibility is middle of funnel consideration phase. Understandability is when push comes to shove and that final decision is being made by the user, you want the machine to recommend you as the single best solution because it understands you and your solutions and your credibility better than it understands your competition.

So, the deliverability, you say it’s the bottom of the funnel. So that’s when the rubber meets the road when they actually sign up for your program, if it’s an online one, they pick up the phone, they call you. What does deliverability mean exactly in this context?

Actually, because we use the word deliverability, there can be a slight misunderstanding. Deliverability is having the content at the top of the funnel. Understandability is the crunch decision when the rubber hits the road, when the decision is made. So if I have deliverable content that’s in the right places for the right people in the right format at the right time, the machine has the content that it can present to its users. Then, when the person comes down the funnel and says, well, who should I choose? For example, knowledge panels. So I’ll come back to an example. If somebody’s researching a knowledge panel, I want it to cite my work and my name as a solution of something to do with the knowledge panel.

How much does a knowledge panel cost? Kalicube says that a knowledge panel is free, but you can get a company like Kalicube to build you a knowledge panel for a fee. Then it goes to the next one, they say, well, who could do this for me? And I want Google, ChatGPT, Bing to say, one option is Kalicube, another option is WebFX, another option is Gert Mellak. Then the person says, okay, now I’m in the funnel on ChatGPT, let’s say. ChatGPT, recommend me which one I should choose of the three you’ve just recommended. Which one should I choose? Which is the best? And the machine will always recommend the one that it understands the best. So it has to choose between the three. It’s got the credibility. Obviously, it’s an order. So Kalicube, let’s say, comes top, most credible. But when push comes to shove, the machine will recommend the one it’s most sure it’s understood because it doesn’t want to get it wrong.

That obsession of the machine is I have to get this right, therefore I’m going to recommend the one that I understand the best is critical. If it understands me more confidently than it understands my competition, it will recommend me above my competition out of the choice of the most credible that it’s found.

Okay, well how’s it different to explain something to a machine than explain it to a human person.

Another interesting question. It’s exactly the same in terms of the content you create. So, you still create the same articles, the same FAQ section on your website, the same videos, the same guest postings, same guest blogging, the same guest podcast appearances, like this one. But you make sure, for example, that the transcript is human corrected. I’m going to make sure that you, Steve, do a transcript, that you correct the transcript in YouTube, because Google will read the transcript in YouTube, and it will know whether or not it’s been human corrected.

If it hasn’t been human corrected, it won’t give it as much credibility, or as much credence, sorry, as if you have human corrected it, because Google doesn’t want to use inaccurate machine understanding. It wants to use human understanding to make sure it’s got it right. And a really good example of that is Kalicube is often written with a C when the machines don’t understand the word. My name, Jason Barnard, is often misunderstood by the machines as Jason Bernard.

That means Google now confuses me with an actor called Jason Bernard. So I have to go through all of the transcripts and correct my name and correct Kalicube ‘s name, because that consistency is key. So the machine will misunderstand where a person won’t or doesn’t necessarily. Secondly, if you write a sentence and the end of the sentence is unexpected, that’s how you can build a joke. That’s how you can make people laugh. That’s how you can communicate with a human being with a lot more emotion and a lot bring them into the story by creating a surprise. Machines hate that.

They can’t understand it. You have to be very clear and a very consistent manage across your phrase. So from that perspective, you think, well, I now need to be really boring because the machine doesn’t get humor. It doesn’t understand culture. It doesn’t understand poetry. So I’m going to have to be boring. And that’s not actually the case. You can balance it between the two. There’s nothing about communicating with a machine in a simple manner that excludes the idea of poetry and humor. It’s just you have to make sure that in your content you include something that is very, very clear for the machine or the machine won’t understand it.

So you’re basically going to make sure that the clarity is there but you also add your personality.

Yes.

Or entertainment where you may be through humor. And it’s not going to confuse the machine?

That’s the trick, is that we advise our clients on how to get that balance to make sure that they are being clear to the machine and yet attractive to the human audience. And it’s a delicate balance, but once you’ve learned it, it becomes quite simple. You learn that some phrases are simply not going to be understood by the machine, and you either avoid them or put them in a different context.

For example, you add them as an aside or a quotation so the machine skips around it, understanding that it’s not part of the main content. So you can exclude it a little bit. It’s still there. The human being sees it. Another nice trick which we use with our clients is if you’ve got something that really is going to confuse the machine, you put it in an image, then the machine doesn’t read it. Or it does read it, but it doesn’t take it as being very important. There are lots of tricks like that that we use to make sure that the flow for the machine is right.

And that’s the final interesting point about content, is when you’re writing content for a machine, the machine is very similar to a human being in that when you’re writing for a human being, you write the content to retain their interest, to retain engagement from the person that they keep reading, that they want to read the next section, then the next section, then the next section, and then at the end, you tell them what you want them to do. What’s your next step? It’s the same for a machine. The machine is using resources to read your article. And at some point, if you’re not leading it by the hand through your article, it will think, well, this is a waste of my resources, or I’m confused, and it will jump and stop reading the article.

When you get to the bottom of the article, you need to tell the machine where to go next. So it’s very similar, human audience and machine audience. You need to write the same piece of content. And that one piece of content needs to serve both of them. Keep them engaged, keep them reading, make sure they understand and tell them what to do next.

So one thing that kind of always puzzled me about SEO was my colleagues always telling me that I need to infuse more keywords into my work, but the right keywords are the ones that are already used by everyone else. So I’m always wondering if I put my work full of these keywords, then am I not commoditizing my work, because then it’s gonna look like everyone else’s work, and how do I articulate the actual differences that there are? So maybe I’m asking the question wrong, but maybe you understand what I’m trying to ask.

No, this is a crucial question because people traditionally in SEO think about keywords. They think about keywords and they think about links.

Yeah.

And they think about the content they’re creating. So those are the three things. Keywords is all about understanding. Google just counted words because that’s all it could do. It counted words, evaluated how dominant a particular word or set of characters was to decide whether or not a document represented the thing that the person was searching for. So, if we take digital marketing services, it would just count the number of times it saw digital marketing services in an article and then decide this is relevant because it says digital marketing services 20 times and this isn’t relevant because it says it five times.

And this one’s spam and useless because it says it 40 times and they’re obviously overdoing it. Now it doesn’t look for the keywords, it looks for do I understand the document? So, you can potentially just say digital marketing services once and it will understand that the whole document is all about digital marketing services. So keywords is the wrong approach now. It’s what is the user looking for? What solution is the user looking to find? Google is proposing solutions to problems and answers to questions.

So instead of keywords, now it’s AI actually interprets your words that may be a synonym of the keyword. If they understand what you’re trying to convey, then you’re going to be fine without focusing on keywords necessarily.

Yes, exactly. So you need to know the words your audience use, but you don’t need to count the number of times you use them. You need to make sure that the article or the piece of content, the video, expresses a solution to a problem or the answer to a question that your audience would want or would find useful. Then that’s the keyword aspect. Then links, people focus on inbound links, saying I need lots of links because that’s how I rank, that’s how I get to the top of Google. But links is simply a credibility signal. And Google is now smart enough to say, well, links are great, great stuff. That’s a credibility signal. I’ll go with that.

But I can also understand academic qualification. I can understand history, how long Jason Barnard’s been a digital marketer, how many people he’s talked to who are super famous in the space, Rand Fishkin, Joost de Valk, Barry Schwartz. All of these people build my credibility without a link, because Google understands that I’ve been talking to them or they respect me or they cite me or they invite me to their events. Credibility used to be just links and now it’s much, much more than that.

So for example, you have podcast recordings on YouTube and then Google will understand that even though there are maybe no backlinks to websites from those interviewers, but you were asked to talk to them and therefore you’re credible?

Yeah, so Google understands me and if it understands you, Steve, if it understands both of us, if it sees us both mentioned in a page and you’re saying Jason Barnard was a guest on my show and it was really fun and we talked about this, that, that, that, Google gets what I would call a linkless link. It says I can associate Steve with Jason. Steve recommends Jason implicitly here. There is no link, but I see that, I understand that, and it counts towards Jason Barnard’s credibility.

Okay, that makes sense. So what’s next? So now with AI, obviously Google is getting smarter or these platforms are getting smarter. What’s the next frontier? So what do you expect is gonna happen in the future, which will inform how people are going to convey their intended message through social media or the internet?

Yeah, for me, we’re already there and people just haven’t realized that. In the sense that, as I said earlier on, the machines function the same way. Google, ChatGPT, Bing, Perplexity, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, they all function the same way. If they understand who you are, what you do, which audience you serve, they believe you’re credible and you have the content that they can deliver to the subset of their users who are your audience, you’ve won the game. Now it’s a question of can you get that out there, understandability, credibility, deliverability, in a consistent manner over time, and make sure that as these machines get better and better and better, which they will, you’re always at the forefront with the right content being the reference, the recommendable resource for your niche topic by all of these machines.

So, the question is now, will things change? Fundamentally, it’s how will they evolve and how fast will they evolve on this basic system of understandability, credibility and deliverability. So, The Kalicube Process is future-proof simply in the sense that fundamentally nothing will now change. We will always be faced with machines who seek to understand who is the most credible to solve the problem of their user in the most efficient manner possible.

So how do you guys help people actually get there?

The Kalicube process is something that we’ve pushed out for the whole world to use. It’s universal. Everybody can use it. It’s simple. It’s three phases. Anybody can do it. And as you said earlier on, you can probably guess most of the things you need to do. And you’ll probably get most of it right. So you’re going to be pretty effective. You can go to our website, lalicube.com, and download the white papers, read the articles, watch the videos, figure it out for yourself, go do it. There’s no secret. We’re sharing everything. What we offer is we don’t guess. We’ve got two billion data points to make sure that we’re doing the right thing in the right order for the right person in the right places. So we make you more efficient.

We also make you more effective because there’s no guesswork. We know exactly where to go to get in front of your audience with that credibility and the right content, but also to make sure the machines understand you, see you as credible and have the material to make you deliverable to put you in front of their audience.

Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to say that if people would like to learn more, then there’s the Kalicube newsletter and they can sign up on kalicube.com/newsletter and they can learn about these three ideas of how to create understanding, credibility and deliverability of your message. I just want to share this with them. What else do you recommend, if anything, that people do? So they visit your website, they subscribe to your newsletter. Can they reach out to you on LinkedIn as well?

Yeah, reaching out on LinkedIn is great. Signing up for our newsletter is a way for you to learn, and we will send you emails that gradually upskill you, send you to the right resources in the right order so that you you learn how to do this, build that understandability, demonstrate your credibility over time and create the content that makes you deliverable both your audience and to Google and the other machines.

And what we find is a lot of people learn, start to do, realize that they’re guessing, that they’re throwing spaghetti at the wall hoping some of it sticks. And then they figure out that an investment in Kalicube services is stop guessing, throw spaghetti one piece at a time at the wall with superglue attached to it, make sure it sticks and build the most efficient, effective and profitable digital marketing strategy or personal branding strategy possible based on our 2 billion data points and our years of experience.

Oh, and the super bonus is we have SOPs for everything. So if we tell you we need to focus on LinkedIn first, then YouTube, then podcast guest appearances, let’s say those are the three key things you need to do. Month one, we do the LinkedIn. We’ll give you an SOP, how to do it most effectively, which mistakes to avoid, how to build that as fast as possible, most effectively with your team. Second, let’s say, YouTube will tell you how to make your thumbnails, how to do the subtitles, make sure you don’t forget to put the time stamps in the description, make sure your titles are right, make sure that you’re distributing it properly, make sure that you’re adding it to your own website, linking out to it. That’s the SOP, the complete SOP to make sure you’re doing it right. And that’s a huge bonus in the sense that it stops you making mistakes that are stuck on resources that don’t actually have an effect.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, get the shortcut so that you hit the ground running.

That’s it. Thank you. You just said what I said, but in one sentence.

 With The Kalicube Process, sign up for the newsletter. Jason, thanks for coming on the show and sharing The Kalicube Process. And for those who are listening, stay tuned for future episodes with other entrepreneurs. Thank you for coming and thank you for listening.

• Jason’s LinkedIn 
• Kalicube 
• Relevant tool: Vision & Strategy Map™