Michael Trust

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Hello, and welcome to Leaders Creating Ruckus on Ruckus Avenue Radio,
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the world's largest South Asian radio and podcast network. Here
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on iHeartRadio, I am your host, Oshi Aora, founder of
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Irise Executive Coaching. I bring over twenty five years of
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leadership experience and specialize in guiding professionals to transform conflict
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into collaboration through my strength based Irise model. Our show
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dives into the minds of visionary, bold leaders who challenge
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the status quo, from business innovators to cultural pioneers. Expect
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candid conversations about radical thinking, breakthrough strategies, and the courage
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to blaze new trails. Let's inspire transformations in your professional
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as well as personal life together.
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Check out Rucus Avenue Radio dot com for our full
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schedule and listen to past episodes available on all major
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podcast platforms.
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And now I'd like to introduce today's guest, Michael Trust.
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Hey Michael, welcome to the Leaders Creating Ruckus.
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Hi, Asha, great to be here. Thank you for having me.
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Yeah, thanks for coming on our show. In a few
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quick sentences or words, tell us what you do, Michael.
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So, I am a reformed HR professional who is now
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an employment lawyer, So I help individuals when they have
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employment problems, and I help businesses solve their employment problems.
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Oh, very unusual to see an employment attorney come from
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the world of HR. So I'm sure you've got some
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fascinating stories to share with us today.
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We can talk about them.
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Absolutely, yeah, and I love that you made that pivot
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at some point. So start us off, Michael, help us understand,
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like where did you grow up and how did you
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get into kind of your early career.
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Born in Breton, California, in Los Angeles and have lived
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in most of my life here. I fell into HR accidentally.
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I'd always been interested in legal and here we are
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as a lawyer, and I'd applied for a position in
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the court system in Los Angeles. And the head of
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recruiting was an alum of my college and had an
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opening in HR and saw my work experience all through
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high school and college and asked if I'd be interested
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in a position in HR. And that's how I fell
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into HR. It wasn't by design, Oh okay, So.
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Just kind of your first job right out of college
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and what did you do in those first years?
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So that was a very very heavy recruitment statistical analysis.
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This item content validation for standardized exams for recruitment. That
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sort of thing.
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Is that something common? Like when people first are going
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into HR out of college, or maybe they're coming in
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with limited work experience or limited relative work experience. You know,
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let's say they've been in retail for ten years and
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they're doing a switch now to HR. Do you often
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see people go into recruitment first? And why is that
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a landing for them? Typically?
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So it's a multi layered question or answer. Actually, because
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many people in recruiting are what they call now talent acquisition.
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Many of those people actually don't see themselves as part
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of HR. They see themselves as the function because in
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some ways that's true, but it's also the way to
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get into HR with the lowest barriers. I mean, recruiting
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in a nutshell is sales and marketing, right. It's knowing
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how to place the right person in the right job. Right.
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That's interesting. Yeah, just like we see like a lot
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of recruitment for people in sales out of college. You're right,
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like it's their first job and they dive into sales.
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I'm still trying to understand though, why sales? Why does
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that become a landing for many young students or someone
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trying to break into a new industry.
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If you're really good at it, you can make a
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lot of money really fast, really young pharmaceutical sales. Back
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in the day, I mean, you could make two three
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hundred thousand dollars out of college if you were really
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good at it. Nowadays it's a little more restricted. I
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actually back to the former point. I actually do see
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recruiting or talent acquisition as part of HR because I
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think that if you don't have a sense of the
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culture of the organization, what issues exist in what work units,
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what kind of managers, their personalities, how they like to work,
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you can't effectively recruit. And so you've got to understand compensation,
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you've got to understand benefits to sell the organization right,
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and you've got to understand what you can do. So
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I actually am of the school that it is absolutely
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an integral part of HR, but not everybody agrees with me.
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Yeah, So I was just thinking about our listenership because
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it's very wide range. Can you help us understand define
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human resources? What that means to you?
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Michael, So, human resource is all about the most important
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asset at any company, which is the people, because you
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could have a seller product, but if you don't have
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or service, but if you don't have the people to
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execute on that, you've got nothing.
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And so yeah, and Yet, time and time again, I
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find even in the startup world, or even in smaller
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even in mid sized businesses, there's no HR department, there's
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no HR officer. Why is it an afterthought and not
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a forethought? Like what's going on there?
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So HR, I mean, let's be frank, in most organizations
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is a cost item, not a revenue item. I take
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the position that actually it is indirectly a revenue item
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because if you hire the right people going back to recruiting,
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right and if you have the right culture and the
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right benefits and the right ways to handle issues right hold,
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you get more productive people in and you hopefully don't
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get sued and have a lot of internal strife and
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all of these kinds of things, all of which impact productivity,
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all of which ultimately impact the bottom line. But for
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most people, HR are seen as the police, which is unfortunate,
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but it's true, and that good HR is not the police.
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Good HR is integrated very deeply into the business and
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works side by side with business leaders and employees to
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generate and help the business move forward. Yes, there's always
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a police function. Somebody's not performing, they're not coming to
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work on time, there's a compensation issue, whatever the case
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might be. Of course, there's always a compliance piece that
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you can't get away from. But it's so much more
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than that, and I think small and medium businesses just
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see it as a cost, and it's just not a
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cost they're willing to spend on when they're starting out.
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Interesting, now, there's also been this shift where I'm seeing
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more and more HR officers calling themselves, you know, like
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people and culture officers, or like redefining kind of the terminology.
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What do you think what's going on there? What are
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your thoughts on that?
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Well? I sort of chuckle at it, because you know,
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it started out as personnel, then it became human resources,
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then it became people, then it became people in culture,
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and now it's chief Happiness Officer or chief people officer
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or whatever you know. I mean, look, I think people
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are using the titles to try to show the world
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how they value people by making that role into that.
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The real rubber meets the road moment, though, is whether
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that's really actually happening. So it doesn't really matter what
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you call it, it matters what you do with it.
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But I think some of that is also a marketing
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piece for candidates to see that, oh they take HR series,
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they take because they take people seriously. They have a
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chief people and cultural cultural officer. I used to be
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one of those, and so you know they're obviously investing there.
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But that's not always the case. It's a nice try.
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It'll evolve again to something else pretty soon.
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Sure, So tell us a little bit about kind of
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your HR journey, like continuing on, So you started off
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in recruitment, kind of landed there and what was that
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like and when did you transition to another type of role.
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So I started in recruitment with with a very high
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volume recruiting piece several thousand people a year in an organization,
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but didn't have a lot of turnover. And you know,
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for people out there listening to are recruiters, Oh that's
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not that much.
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Well a lot was on paper, Okay, you were getting
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it was paper resumes to you, right.
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Having so much facts mail mail Oh.
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My gosh, yes, maybe not even the facts, but mail.
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And so you're getting a bunch of applicants for a
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single position, and you've got to go through all that
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manual paperwork. Wow.
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So I for some of our some of our entry
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level positions, on an annual basis, we would get ten
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to fifteen thousand paper applications, my gosh, and those positions
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would open several times a year, so you can imagine
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the volume. So we would scan We were early adoptors
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on scanning, and all that stuff would get scanned and everything,
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but you know, the technology was limited in what you
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could do. And then got to learn more about comp
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compensation and some other areas, and then moved into more
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like employee relations type roles handling employee issues, whether that's
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you know, this person's not performing, we need to figure
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out what's going on and either manage them out or
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fix it or to you know, we're getting robbed and
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it's an inside job, but we need you to investigate it.
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To you know, this person's being setally harassed or is
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harassing somebody and we need you to go investigate that
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and all of that, which is you know, very eye opening,
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especially when you're very young. And then progressed into roles
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where I became more of a generalist, having that experience
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and started becoming more responsible for running the function and
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all of the associated functions, training and comp and recruitment
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and benefits and all of those sorts of things.
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Well, when you were so you kind of launched into
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investigations before performance or like was it at the same time?
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And what I mean by that is in your role
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with employee relations, were you guiding managers on how to
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do performance reviews, how to do check ins? I mean,
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I know this concept of check ins came a lot later,
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probably in your career, but I'm sure even early on
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you're like, hey, when's the last time you asked your
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employees how they're doing? Like do you ever talk to
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them casually about things outside of work or you know,
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just checking in with We didn't have the word well
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being initially that we do now. So how is how
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is that progression like kind of or did you were
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you just thrust into investigations only in that role?
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I think some of both. I think how shall I say?
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I think more enlightened managers would call proactively for advice about, hey,
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this person's not performing? What what what should I do?
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Help to other managers who say, listen, I just don't
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want this person here anymore, make it happen, figure out
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a way to make it work.
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You know, always fascinated by the amount of emotional intelligence
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that HR professionals have, Like, was that just in need
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in you? Did you do something actively to work on
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that in your early years in HR? Like how did
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you know what advice to give like to these managers?
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You know, it's an interesting question. I think some of
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it is innate. I think that in HR, I'm fond
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of saying, when you're in HR, you're you know, part
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social worker, art lawyer, you know, part counselor part you know,
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kicking the butter, you know, part everything. There's a lot
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of hats and you have to pivot from you know,
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you're in a financial meeting at ten and eleven you
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got to fire somebody, and at two you're running a
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training on how to make employees more productive, and you
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just got to know how to do it. I had
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worked all through high school and college, so I think
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for people in my age peer group, I had more
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experience dealing with people than many people in my peer group,
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and I think it just is sort of common sense
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in a lot of ways. I do want to qualify
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and say that. I find that the worst HR people
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are the people who think that they are actually social workers,
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because that is not the role of HR. Sure, somebody
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comes in their kid just got diagnosed with cancer. Of
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course you're going to be empathetic, and of course you're
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going to help them with the benefits that are available
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and try to be as supportive as possible. But at
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the end of the day, you still running, You're still
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a business function. You're running a business, and so there's
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a balance. Then, yeah, there's a balance.
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Then the god they codon person. Now you the cordon.
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You're listening to Ruckus Avenue.
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Radio, I don't hear a lot of young people saying
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they want to go into HR. What do you think
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that's about?
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Uh? In my networks, I know a lot of parents
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who are in HR telling their kids not to go
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into HR actually because it's sort of as it's a
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no win profession. Right now, there's a lot of pressure,
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you know, there's ever expanding regulations, particularly in California. Right
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they just chew up a ton of time, and you
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get squeezed by your management about why do we have
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to do this? And they think it's your fault and
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and you're getting squeezed by employees, particularly younger employe who
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want work life balance and meaning and all of these
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other things. And the work ethic is differently focused than
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it has been in past generations, and there's a lot
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of tension between generations in the workplace, and you're constantly
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putting out fires. Now, a good HR person can manage
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those things if they have the support of their management
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and leadership to make that all work. But that's a
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very difficult thing to do, and so you've got to
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have the right person to do that. So a lot
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of HR people, a lot of people are just feeling
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like it's just not I don't really like the term,
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but I can't think of a better one. The juice
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isn't worth the squeeze right for the amount of pressure
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and responsibility, because for many things in HR, the HR
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person is personally responsible legally for some things that happen,
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and there's a lot of pressure. But if you're one
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of these people that wants to go into it because
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you like office gossip and you want to be in
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control in all of those things, sure it can be
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a great profession, but you're not going to last very
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long if that's your approach.
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What are kind of the success the attributes of successful
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HR leaders you've seen.
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It's going to sound it's going to sound counterintuitive. And
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I learned this a little bit later in my career,
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which is fine because times were changing. Yeah, you've got
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to you've got to know that you've got to be
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a business person first in HR. Second, you've got to
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understand the business thing.
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It's a really good perspective.
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Because otherwise, how can you help people be better if
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you don't understand what it is they're doing? Right, So,
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I know there's a there's a sort of a split
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view on this. I do think that the gold standard.
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I love I love the controversy, Michael, I'm all for it.
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Go ahead, bring it out to it. Yeah, I do think.
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I do think that the gold standard credentials. And there's
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lots of credentials that are not gold standard, but I
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think the gold standard credentials in HR actually do matter,
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particularly when you're younger in your career, because to some extent,
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they show at least some base level of knowledge that
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you have to have to get those credentials. And you know, sir,
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studying a book isn't going to teach you HR other
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than HR is really a career where you have to
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learn by doing, because no situation is ever the same,
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because no person is.
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Ever the same. Yeah, we're all so different.
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So how I handle person A in terms of how
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I approach something might be different than how I handle
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person B in approaching the same thing. I'm not suggesting
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that I apply rules differently or apply the law differently
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or something like that. It's just the approach right, right right,
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And you've got to You've got to know that. But
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you've also got to know how to read a balance
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sheet and a P and L, and you've got to
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understand where the profits are in the business and where
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they aren't, so that you're not making some hair brained
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proposals for the brand new widget that you know everybody
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in HR is all excited about when it doesn't make
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sense for the business, right, you have no credibility. One
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of the challenges in HR throughout my career has been
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HR people clamoring that they want to see at the table,
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But the people sitting at the table are experts in
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their areas that run the business. HR is an afterthought
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for most of them. Unfortunately, because as we talked about,
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I don't think that's appropriate. Right. People are the most
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important thing. But if you want to sit at the
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big boys and girls table, you've got to be able
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to rock and roll with the big boys and girls.
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And talk tak that language. So when they say culture
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eats strategy time and time again, what does that mean though?
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In dollars and cents? Right? I mean? I talk to
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startups all the time, like or different people from startups.
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I talk to young, old whatever, And I'm like, you know,
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what's the number one reason startups fail? What do you think, Michael,
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what's the number one reason startups fail?
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Well, Either they have their ideas, ideas no good, there's
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no market for it, whatever it is. But I think
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it's also then not having the right people to execute
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on what could be a great idea.
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It's it's a people problem. It's and that people problem
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is usually because it's a culture problem, because when we
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as leaders don't define the culture, the people in the
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organization will define the culture. And when they define the culture,
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it is not always aligned or allied with the leadership
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or with the vision and mission of the organization.
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Let me say something there, the leaders defining the culture,
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it's more than just defining it, they have to live
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it it because because they can say that, but people
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look at them modeling the behavior. What I often say
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is HR has to model the behavior they want everybody
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else to follow totally. HR has to be beyond reproach. No,
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you can't have a date with somebody in the company.
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You're an HR. You have to model that behavior.
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Yes, But if you're going to gossip as an HR,
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yes at all. That gossip is going to also become
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part of the company culture, and it's going to it's
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going to go everywhere else. Just because everyone's telling you
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their issues and their problems doesn't give you the right
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to be disclosing that everywhere.
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I often tell young men, particularly to your question about
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younger people getting in HR is a very lonely place,
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especially if you're a solo HR person in a company.
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There's nobody else, Like you don't have an HR assistant
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or another HR genderist that you too can talk because
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you're both in HR. But if you're by yourself, it's
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a very very lonely place because you really can't talk
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to anybody right about things.
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But I mean, I think that can be said for
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a lot of different also leaders you know in different roles.
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The higher up you go, the lonelier it does tend
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to get. That's right, and that's why networking becomes really important.
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And what I mean by networking is like connecting with
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people outside an organization but still share a similar experiences
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you so you still have that sounding board, you have
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someone to talk to it because often, yeah, you get
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into challenges within your own organization. I mean I got into.
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I recall a time where I got into huge trust
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challenges with someone in HR realizing that, oh, everything I'm
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telling her is going elsewhere or potentially going in other areas.
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And I'm like, here, I thought I had a confidant
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and it didn't turn out that way. I mean, that
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was that was a huge distrust. Now that's my experience
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of most HR professionals.
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It was.
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It was one time, but it's going back to not
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only defining the culture, defining the values for an organization,
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it's living them as well.
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It's just so as an HR person, I often tell
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people when they say can you keep this confidential? My
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stock answer is it depends on what you tell me.
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There are some things, Yeah it's a disclosure, but I
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will disclose only the minimum amount necessary. Right, And there
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have been CEOs that I've worked for or equivalents where
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I've said to them, I'm not going to tell you
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unless you give me a direct order to tell you,
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because it's better that you don't know, right. But that's
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a judgement. But that's a judgment call, and that only
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comes with experience.
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Yeah, experience, And I would say emotional intelligence too, which
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I'm I'm assuming does select you know, in a certain sense.
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I can't. I can't imagine not having strong emotional intelligence
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and having an affinity or liking or being good at
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what you do in a role in HR. So okay,
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So leading leading back to kind of your career journey,
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you went into a more generalist role, so doing a
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little bit of everything or advising an operational leader on X,
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Y Z, and then what happened?
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So I progressed through through all of that. And I
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want to add too that in many companies, HR is
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seen as sort of the catch all. So they managed
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to went in jout to HR. So we want to
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have a holiday party, HR complan that we want to
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have an employee recognition party HR complan that HR is
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not a party planning function. It is a business function,
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but unfortunately distinction most people well still today CCHR as
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the party planning social.
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Well, because there's the people. They're the people.
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The people people.
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Yeah, the people people. So whatever is related to the
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people people, they'll know what to do.
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But it's insulting to people who are professional HR people.
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If you're an office manager and you happen to do HR,
404
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yeah it's appropriate for you to plan the party, but
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for a professional HR person, it's a problem. And to
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your other point about you know when I said that
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you have to know the business first, but you have
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to put people over profits, I really believe that if
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you have the right people, you will make the profits.
410
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That's right.
411
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Yeah, right, So so you know, after thirty five years
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of doing this and seeing you know so much that
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I don't think there's anything anybody can tell me. And
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I say this whole time that will shock me.
415
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We want to hear some of those shocking stories, but.
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Go ahead, nothing will shock me. I decided sort of,
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if you can't beat them, join them. So I decided
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much later in life to go back to law school,
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sort of fulfilling that dream coming out of college of
420
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being involved in the legal world should have done it
421
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much sooner. But you can't regret time has gone by.
422
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It is what it is, and that's it. So you
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do it now. And so now I've flipped it where
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now I provide advice and counsel to employees on HR
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and employment related issues. And I do the same for
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employers either they're in trouble or hopefully they're coming to
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me prophylactically because they don't want to be in trouble
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and they want me to help them build that culture
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and do right by people so that they don't have
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these kind of problems. And most of my clients have
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hired me specifically as a lawyer, specifically because of my
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HR background.
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Yeah, I can see where that would be so important, effective, efficient,
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almost because there's so much understanding and that broad range
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experience and knowledge that you already bring. You're not, you know,
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a little bit that stereotypical stuffy lawyer who say no, no, no,
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you're like, wait, I've lived this, and I can work
438
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in the gray zone. Here's the gray zone and here's
439
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:10.839
the law, and you're able to provide that breadth of experience.
440
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Yeah, there's a business decisions, right, Yeah, let's make a
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decision it's always their decision. I'm the lawyer. I don't
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make decisions. I just advice and counsel.
443
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:26.799
So like, mid career, you went to law school. That's incredible,
444
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Like what was that transition experience?
445
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Like maybe even little later later career, later career. Yeah,
446
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you know, a law school is no joke at any age.
447
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The California Bar is this is the hardest bar in
448
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the country. Currently, it's the second hardest in the world
449
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after South Korea. And so doing it in California, I
450
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.359
mean that's a significant commitment. You give up your life
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for the time of law school. Pretty much. I worked
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all through law school. I went to a part time program,
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and so working, you know, and going to school at night,
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it's doable. It's interesting. I went to a program where
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most of my colleagues, the average age was probably about
456
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forty five. I'm older than that. But we didn't have,
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you know, twenty five year olds. We had people with
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lots of life experience, they already had careers, they already
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had families. We understood what we were doing there, and
460
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so that brought a different perspective to I think the
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youngest person that I went through with was twenty nine
462
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and I think they took her because she was a
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highly experienced paralegal and had the emotional intelligence and was
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way beyond her years in terms of how she viewed
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things versus her biological age. And so they made an
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I mean not that they it's an exception, but it's
467
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not somebody they normally would admit, but they did, and
468
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she did really well. But you know, look, I mean
469
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it shed some light on things that, oh, this is
470
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why the lawyers always say to do it this way. Okay,
471
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that makes sense. It also was interesting to be able
472
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to challenge professors to say, well, you don't work in
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the employment field, and while I'm simply a lowly law
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student and you're a lawyer, you're wrong. This is not
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how this works. I'll go over, Well, all of my
476
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professors were working except one, because there's a different role.
477
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We're working attorneys or judges, and so they would usually engage, well,
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why do you think it's wrong, and I would explain, well,
479
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this is that, this is why it's wrong, this is
480
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why it's wrong, and I get the point you're trying
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to make, but this is actually really what I think
482
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you're trying to say. And then real life, this is
483
00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:35.039
how it works, and usually it was like, oh, you know,
484
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:37.640
there's something on my gusk tomorrow I'm gonna be talking
485
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:42.720
to my partners about That's a really good perspective, would.
486
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:46.759
You say, Michael, like, given your HR background and now
487
00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:51.559
your legal expertise and your legal background, the engagement in
488
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:58.920
the legal field, you're a comfort with conflict. Has it
489
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.200
always been there? Has it evolved? You know where we
490
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.680
sitting on the spectrum.
491
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.079
That's a good question. You know, when I was younger,
492
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:12.759
I really relished conflict. Yeah, And you know it's funny
493
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:14.799
as a lawyer. I mean, we're in a conflict business,
494
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.079
and I don't mind the conflict, but as I've gotten
495
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.920
older and wiser, I try to resolve things with as
496
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:23.480
little conflict as possible. I just think it's more productive
497
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.279
for everybody. Is there going to be conflict? Sure, is
498
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.440
it going to be knocked down brutal conflict lawyers talk?
499
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:31.839
Of course, it's going to happen, But to the extent
500
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:34.240
that we can be civil to each other and just
501
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.519
work it out if we can. I prefer to take
502
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.039
that road in the high road, and not all lawyers do.
503
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.079
A lot of us are really trying to like to
504
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:47.319
tone down the temperature with things. You know, the stakes
505
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:50.000
are hot for a lot of people, and clients push right,
506
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.519
and when clients push and the other side doesn't want
507
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.559
to give or whatever, you know, sure you have conflict,
508
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.440
but I think it's just more economical and productive. You know.
509
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:03.200
That all also leads to sort of a philosophical question
510
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.720
in the legal industry which is being changed fundamentally by AI,
511
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.279
which is, if you're paid by the hour, particularly a
512
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.599
defense lawyer, because they're paid by the hour, it is
513
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.160
in their interest to have conflict because every time they
514
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:19.880
pick up the phone or send an email, they get
515
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.359
the bill for interesting And AI is changing some of
516
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:26.160
that too, because you know, it's like, well, ay, I
517
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:28.039
could do a lot of that work that they bill
518
00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:30.880
hourly for, So why am I paying you all this
519
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:31.400
money for that?
520
00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:32.000
Right?
521
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:33.799
Interesting?
522
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:41.720
Indeed, we will your we were reckless, us bout breakfast
523
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.000
will workers, we will restless, and we both know that
524
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.200
we were blessed with.
525
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:54.240
You're listening to Ruckus Avenue Radio Avenue available now on
526
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.160
the free iHeart radio app.
527
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:01.160
Did that would you agree?
528
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:09.519
We could go to think what could? Yeah, I've always
529
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:14.519
marveled at typically folks of the legal profession are not
530
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:19.519
conflict avoidant like many others. I feel like I see
531
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:21.759
this a lot in leadership. I see this amongst my
532
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.759
clients often where I mean, I'm a conflict coach, so
533
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:30.640
I'm trying to get people more comfortable with conflict in
534
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:32.920
the sense where I'm like, conflict doesn't have to be
535
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.319
good or bad. It's there and there lots you can get.
536
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.079
It's necessary. There's a lot we can get from conflict.
537
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:44.160
I mean, tech industry does this well. They allow for
538
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.640
a lot of safe spaces for conflict to occur so
539
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:53.759
that you get more innovative, creative ideas and that you know,
540
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:58.240
so that can be translated to so many other professions.
541
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:02.839
Yet in healthcare we find a lot less conflict because
542
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.599
you know, there's there's a little bit more people pleasing,
543
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:10.079
there's you know, empathy and compassion is like I mean,
544
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.960
empathy and compassion can also mean yes, we do need
545
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.279
to get into conflict because we are doing this in
546
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.519
the best service to the individual and the person. And
547
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.240
yet still we you know, we have this tendency to
548
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.119
kind of avoid it instead of really, you know, deal
549
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.359
with it. Now, you deal with a lot of conflict
550
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.759
on a daily basis. And I want to transition a
551
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.960
bit into something that I think is really important to
552
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:42.680
talk about, is why aren't more small to mid sized
553
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:49.119
businesses hiring people like you ahead of time until conflict
554
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:53.279
really reaches heightened levels Like what's happening there?
555
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.240
Well, you know, by the time the conflict reaches that level,
556
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:57.279
it's going to cost a lot more.
557
00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.279
Yeah, absolutely so.
558
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.599
And so there are times where I will offer a
559
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.319
business client a subscription model if they're interested for a
560
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.079
set monthly fee where they get a certain number of
561
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.240
phone calls or document reviews or whatever it is that
562
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:16.200
they need, or a project based situation like look, we
563
00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:18.359
need a new handbook as a simple but the handbook
564
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:21.319
also drives culture as simple as it sounds. Or we
565
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.960
need someone to come in and do some training. We're
566
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.160
having a lot of issues and we bought another company
567
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.880
and now we're having trouble integrating and you know, can
568
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:30.279
you come in and help us with that? It's actually
569
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:32.279
even more HR than really legal.
570
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.640
Right, Yeah, So where's that? Where's that line right between
571
00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:41.720
a company going I need to have a dedicated HR
572
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:46.559
director versus a company saying we need to have an
573
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:47.759
attorney on retail.
574
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.519
So if it's if it's part of you know, we're
575
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.200
being sued and we need a new handbook and we
576
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:56.000
need a policy review, and could you come in and
577
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.480
do some training. Oftentimes I will do it as part
578
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:02.400
of the overall project. If it's more of, hey, we're
579
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:04.160
get to the point where we feel like we need
580
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.559
HR and could you do that for us? My general
581
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:09.720
answer is I'm not really you know, I'm as a lawyer,
582
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:11.799
I don't really want to be the HR director. There's
583
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.599
too much of a conflict in that role. Not a
584
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:16.839
conflict between us, but a conflict in the role responsibilities.
585
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.200
I'd like to refer you to a trusted HR consultant
586
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.039
to come in and either help you hire an HR
587
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.599
director or be an outsourced HR person for you. And
588
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.000
then you know, hopefully that HR consultant will use me
589
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:32.319
as the lawyer. Many of them already have relationships. But
590
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:34.079
if I prefer the client, you know, I hopefully they'll
591
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.759
use me as the lawyer and refer other people to me.
592
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.640
And so that's where I draw the line. If it's
593
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.799
a pure HR role, Hey, let me go to my
594
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.480
network and see if I know anybody that I can
595
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.680
refer to you and be let me let me get
596
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:49.400
you with some consultants if I don't have anybody, and
597
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:51.519
who can come in and really evaluate what you need
598
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.400
in that. If you want me to help interview or whatever,
599
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.759
sure I'm happy to do that because we'll hopefully, hopefully
600
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.440
not be working a lot together, but we probably will,
601
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.720
so let's make sure there's a you know, we're in
602
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:04.240
sync there.
603
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:09.440
You know, I was talking to a healthcare company, mid
604
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:15.519
sized healthcare company scaling quite quickly, and they were one
605
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.799
of their executive leaders. One of the founders actually said,
606
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:24.480
I think I need coaching because we're accelerating. I've kind
607
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.039
of just homegrown into this. I don't have an MBA.
608
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:31.400
I'm a physician, and I don't know what I don't know.
609
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.119
And my first question was like, oh, okay, can I
610
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.680
speak you know, can I get also some more insight
611
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:42.799
from your chief HR officer or director? And they said,
612
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.319
oh sure, it's being interim run by you know, the
613
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.000
finance person. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And
614
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.319
as we developed a bit of a relationship, went you know,
615
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.200
you may consider can I offer some advice and you
616
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.559
may want to consider hiring an HR director I guess
617
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.559
what my question to you is, because I'm sure you
618
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:10.920
see this a lot where business owners companies, especially as
619
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.760
they're the small mid sized company, will just assume that
620
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:17.800
a manager will take on HR roles, you know, not
621
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.800
designating it for someone. Where have you seen that go
622
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.159
really wrong? And where have you had to step in?
623
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.280
It almost always goes wrong because the manager may be
624
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.960
a really great manager, but it's so easy to make
625
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.480
mistakes in HR, particularly in California, things that are not
626
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.920
obvious that get trip somebody up and get the organization
627
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.960
suited significantly and it's just not worth it. Finance people
628
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.719
tend I'm making a blanket statement. It's not true for
629
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.440
all of them, but financially not to make the greatest
630
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:52.159
HR people. They're focus is on numbers. Yeah, it's different,
631
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.960
it's a different mindset, and an HR reporting to finance
632
00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:59.119
is generally not a great thing at the base level
633
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:03.800
for separation of duties when if finance is running payroll,
634
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.000
HR should not report to finance, right so that there's
635
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.960
a clear separation there. But just because finance people, again
636
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.119
HR goes in and says, hey, we've got this issue,
637
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.639
da da da da, What is financing how much does
638
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.480
it cost. Not, Oh, this is a serious issue. It's
639
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:19.679
going to create problems. We need to work this out right.
640
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:26.559
And so again not everybody, and you know today many
641
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:28.960
companies sort of the push is skills based hiring, not
642
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.039
degree based hiring. And so to your point about the
643
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.800
dock without the NBA, I mean, should a docket an MBA. Yeah,
644
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.840
probably if they're going to be running anything on the
645
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.519
business side as well, it probably doesn't hurt. But the
646
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:43.880
people coming in under that doc now maybe coming in
647
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.159
being hired because of the skills they bring, not because
648
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.239
they have a bachelor's or a master's or a PhD
649
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.440
or an MBA or whatever the case is. And that's
650
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:58.079
a different approach to career, different writing skill, potentially different
651
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:03.519
analytical skills, potentially different ways of resolving issues conflict, right
652
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:06.559
than someone who's gone through college. I'm not saying it's
653
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:10.119
good or bad. I'm saying it's different and organization. That's
654
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.199
going to be a big shift in organizational culture as well,
655
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.960
when organizations in the past to value education and maybe
656
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.559
don't as much anymore, and less education is required like
657
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.280
a lawyer, a doctor and accountant somebody like that, where education.
658
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:25.840
Some type of license profession.
659
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.239
A license professional where you have to have it, and
660
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:30.880
that is going to be a big shift. And so
661
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:33.960
as we talk about the generational shifts and the culture there,
662
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:39.519
we're now layering a cultural expectations around what qualifies someone
663
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:40.960
to work in this organization.
664
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:44.440
So, Michael, what's the ROI for a business to work
665
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:44.719
with you?
666
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.320
Well, if we work prophylactically together, hopefully I can I
667
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:52.400
can head off problems before they become problems. Because if
668
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.679
I can identify issues and we can resolve them before
669
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.199
they rise to the level of a legal issue without
670
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.400
somebody outside forcing the issu you, it's generally going to
671
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.960
be a lot cheaper if I can come in and
672
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.400
help put things in place so that you don't generally
673
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.320
have those issues. And obviously there's always going to be issues,
674
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:15.079
nobody's perfect, but to minimize them then hopefully the ROLI
675
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.960
is that you spent some money on it, but you
676
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.239
saved all this money downstream from not having these other issues.
677
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:25.079
Legal issues are very expensive in California, and the big
678
00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:28.760
issues in California for hourly employees are waging hour issues
679
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.360
and for all employees are going to be leave related issues.
680
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:33.239
Those are going to be the big ones, and they're
681
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:35.719
very easy to get suit over, and they're very easy
682
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:36.159
to lose.
683
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.639
And the law doesn't care about your naivete.
684
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.159
The law doesn't care about your intent, It doesn't care
685
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.840
about your naivete. You're as the employer. The state takes
686
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.679
the position that you are expected to know the rules.
687
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.599
Wow, and how do you start off with a product
688
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:58.719
or service? You start this business, it starts growing, and you're,
689
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.679
you know, growing people with it. You're getting excited that
690
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:06.320
you're helping to create so much livelihood for all these people.
691
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:10.000
And then things start happening and it starts unraveling because
692
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:13.079
you didn't you didn't understand the rules or the laws
693
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:16.360
and trying to get ahead of ahead of some of
694
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:20.679
the challenges. How often do you find yourself playing more
695
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.199
of an HR role versus a legal role as you're
696
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:24.760
consulting with these businesses?
697
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:26.599
Fifty fifty.
698
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.760
Oh wow, that's quite significant, which again makes you very
699
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:31.679
unique to what you do.
700
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:34.360
Yeah, because I can say, well, from a legal standpoint,
701
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.679
here's what you ought to do. From a practical HR standpoint,
702
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.599
here's what you ought to do. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive,
703
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:40.800
but they're different approaches.
704
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:43.760
Oh amazing.
705
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:46.920
A lot of companies also call a federal law They
706
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.039
use Google as their lawyer. And that's not all.
707
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:53.880
It was love to understand that Google are now Claude.
708
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.480
What about you know, Claude or Gemini or Chat.
709
00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:00.760
So can we talk about A just for a second.
710
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.159
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Pi'll try to be the last big
711
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:05.039
thing we talk about.
712
00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:08.440
But yes, so AI is fantastic. I use it every
713
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.880
day in my practice. But here's the caveat AI is
714
00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:14.679
not a lawyer, it's not a doctor, it's not an accountant.
715
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.280
They hallucinate, they want to please you. They're going to
716
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:20.360
give you the answer that you want. They often don't
717
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.440
get nuanced. They really don't get nuance. And the big
718
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:29.360
elephant in the room is nothing as confidential. Everything you
719
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:31.920
put into Claude or Chat, GPT or whatever. When you're
720
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.039
a manager and you're asking about how to handle something,
721
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.159
that plaintiff's lawyer is going to be able to get
722
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.760
your prompts in those outputs if you did it on
723
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:44.239
your own. There's case law about this. As a lawyer,
724
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.599
the a I use is an enclosed universe. It's my
725
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.119
work product. Nobody can get it. I mean there's limited
726
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.800
circumstances where work product can be divulced, but it's very limited.
727
00:39:54.480 --> 00:40:00.079
It's privileged, not true for the public public areas. So
728
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:02.920
you have people writing resumes with AI, you have people
729
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.119
doing interviews with Claude or gem and I open in
730
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:10.480
the background, right. You have people using AI in ways
731
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.400
that they think they're being helpful and saving money, but
732
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:15.679
in fact they could be digging the whole much deeper.
733
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.639
And for my purposes, it's discover.
734
00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:24.400
Interesting. I feel like we could have you back on
735
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.920
the show just to talk about the ethics of AI
736
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:31.360
and you know and AI and law can we can
737
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:32.920
we have you back on the show to talk about that,
738
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:33.599
Michael Can.
739
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:36.480
I take it very seriously, the ethics of it, and
740
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:40.519
I use it very responsibly. And I've really browbeat many
741
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.960
of my older colleagues where AI is kind of scary
742
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:45.320
and they think it's going to solve these problems, and
743
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.400
I've sort of helped them understand what it can do
744
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.440
and what it can't and to adopt it because it
745
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.199
can make you that much more efficient as a lawyer,
746
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:54.239
which means you can charge your clients less money, which
747
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:56.599
for me is important. I want to add value to
748
00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.480
my clients. I'm not here to fleet them. I'm here
749
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:00.239
to help them. I need to make a living and
750
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.920
run a business, but I don't need to gouge them, right,
751
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:05.760
And it's in my fee agreements, It's in my welcome
752
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.800
letters all about AI. So it's everywhere.
753
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:12.000
Great, We're definitely going to have you back here talking
754
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.119
because I do believe there is there's that fear element
755
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:18.199
of you know, I don't want to use it, I'm scared,
756
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:20.360
I don't know how to use it, et cetera. But
757
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:23.559
there's the other element too, like of maybe I'm using
758
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.480
it too much, And where do I have to like
759
00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:28.880
be careful. I have the right guardrails in because I
760
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.159
can see we're in a profession like mine that's not licensed,
761
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:34.800
Like as a coach, it might be a bit of
762
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.880
gray zone. But and yet still I want to make
763
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:41.239
sure I'm following some code of ethics, and we do
764
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.039
have you know, I'm an International Coaching Federation coach. We
765
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:46.519
do have a code of ethics, and it has not
766
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:51.480
necessarily addressed AI directly. The ICF is working on addressing
767
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:55.639
AI and ethics. But I might be inadvertently putting feeding
768
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:57.760
information in there and not realizing it.
769
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.800
And so let me give you a scenario for you. Yeah,
770
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:03.679
somebody comes in and talks to you about some conflict
771
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:07.239
issue in your coaching practice. Yes, and it's something you
772
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.400
hadn't thought of before. So you turn to Claude. I
773
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.840
know you love Claude and you asked clud about it.
774
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:17.280
I did, And that person ends up suing somebody over
775
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.920
whatever this issue is. And they're asked, well, who did
776
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.800
you talk to is part of your emotional distress? Well,
777
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.000
I saw a psychiatrist. I saw a psychologist. Oh, and
778
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.719
I have a coach. There comes that subpoena. We want
779
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.119
everything you did with this person, including your AI. Yeah.
780
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.159
And by the way, California, California has a law now
781
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.079
and it's going to be reformed again on January one,
782
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.880
twenty seven. That for businesses, if you use AI to
783
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:49.079
make hiring decisions, compensation decisions, performance decisions, layoff decisions, that
784
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.800
all has to be disclosed unless there's human oversight, and
785
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:55.519
it has to be disclosed that you're using it with
786
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:57.840
human oversight. If there's no human oversight, it has to
787
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:02.719
be disclosed. And AI often discriminates why because it can
788
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:06.039
only use what it's been told and the data sets
789
00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:11.159
that exist and data sets historically have been skewed statistically.
790
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:15.119
So AI has a very high tendency to discriminate and
791
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:17.760
therefore you can't blame well Claude told me.
792
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:18.119
To do it.
793
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:22.119
No work there, so workday.
794
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:24.960
But yeah, I can see where someone may say something
795
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:27.159
like that, even though we're laughing about it.
796
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.719
But yeah, so work Day huge applicant tracking system HR
797
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.840
system used by many large small companies around the country. Yes,
798
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:40.400
an employer got sued. They pointed it workday. It turned
799
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:43.480
out that Workday was screening anybody out forty and over.
800
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:48.639
That's an age discrimination issue. Work day got sued. What
801
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:53.360
happened The employer configured it, So the employer is responsible,
802
00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:56.880
not work Day, but workday was responsible for not catching
803
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.199
catching AI was screen.
804
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:05.119
Okay, a lot to discuss here. I can't wait to
805
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.159
have you back on the show, Michael. If someone wants
806
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:12.199
to hear more about all the different things you know
807
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:16.199
that you stand for, but as well as give advice
808
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:19.960
on and perhaps even connect to connect to you for
809
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:22.800
your legal services, how can they best reach you?
810
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:26.119
So my website is great, Michael, trust law dot com.
811
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.360
You can call me four two four six three four
812
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:32.000
nine three three three, and I'm happy to set up
813
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.920
a time to chat. My website has tons of information
814
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.039
for both employers and employees to get people started if
815
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:41.599
they have questions, and I'm happy to chat with anybody.
816
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.480
Great. And then you had some disclosures you had to
817
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:47.719
also state too, This would be a great time to
818
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:47.960
do that.
819
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.519
Thank you. So, of course, nothing in this conversation is
820
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:53.840
is or it's intended to be legal advice. It is
821
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.639
not legal advice. Every situation is different. No attorney can
822
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.519
guarantee any outcome past results, stone guarantee future results. And
823
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:04.960
this is an attorney advertisement under the state law of California.
824
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.039
It could be a whole discussion itself, because I don't
825
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.559
feel like we were really advertising. We were thought thoughtful
826
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:15.199
leadership conversation. But we're in California, so we have to
827
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:19.719
follow some of the rules. So thank you, Michael, thank
828
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.800
you for coming on our show. Join us every Sunday
829
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:26.239
at four pm Pacific Standard time here on Ruckus Avenue
830
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:30.639
Radio on the iHeartRadio platform as we interview and talk
831
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:34.559
to a lot of great leaders. And this is Ashierora
832
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:37.480
for leaders creating Ruckus. Take care, have a great rest
833
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:59.039
of your day, Bye Bye the Rules Host.
834
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:03.639
Listen to South Asian Radio and Podcast Network