Moving Forward Without Moving On: Amber Sax on Grief, Empathy, and Honoring Those We’ve Lost

speaker-0: Hi, and welcome to Lead with Bubba Scott. Before we begin today's episode, I want to let you know that this conversation is different from what we typically cover on the show. Today's discussion deals with loss, grief, aviation mishaps, and the long road of healing that follows. This is a heavy topic, but it is also a conversation about love, resilience, service, advocacy, and what it means to move forward. while still honoring those we have lost. On june eighth, two thousand twenty two, Swift 11 in MV 22B Osprey crashed in Eastern California as a result of a mechanical failure, which took the lives of five United States Marines Captain Nicholas P. Lasapio, Captain John J. Sachs, Corporal Nathan E. Carlson, Corporal Seth D. Rasmussen. And Lance Corporal Evan A. Strickland. In their tragic passing, the lives of their families, friends, squadron, the first responders on the scene, fellow aviators, and the entire V-22 community were changed forever. Today, I'm joined by Amber Sachs, Gold Star Widow of the late Captain John Sachs and the founder of the Captain Sachs Foundation. In this conversation, we talk about John as a husband, father, Marine and pilot. And we also talk about Amber's journey through grief, healing, and building a path forward after unimaginable loss. Amber is an incredible example of strength and resilience, and as much as we can learn from her about navigating tragedy, we can learn just as much about leadership in crisis. We talk about the ripple effects of an aviation mishap, the importance of giving people permission to heal, and the idea that moving forward does not mean forgetting. Amber shares what it means to release guilt without releasing love, to honor those we have lost by living fully. And to turn grief into service through the Captain Sachs Foundation. This is a deeply meaningful conversation, and I'm incredibly grateful to Amber and her strength in sharing John's story, her story, and a message that far too many people need to hear. Let's get into it. Amber Sacks, welcome to Leave with Bubba Scott.
speaker-1: Thank you for having me.
speaker-0: Thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us your time today. ⁓ really looking forward to this discussion. ⁓ and I think it'll be really powerful for our audience. So thanks again. And with that, I just want to kick it off with can you give us a little bit of background on where you grew up and where you're from? And then if you could talk about John and his upbringing and what and how how you ⁓ met.
speaker-1: Yeah, so John and I are actually both from Northern California. He was born in Torrance. I was born in the Bay Area, but the upbringing in what we consider our hometown would be Northern California, Granite Bay for him, Folsom for me. ⁓ so we went to neighboring cities for high school. ⁓ our our pass actually kept crossing or almost crossing several times throughout the years before we actually met. Which was when John came home from school for a winter break from Embry Riddle. He was out with his friends. I was out with my friends and we met. And then from there, ⁓ fast forward a year or so later, ⁓ a friend of his gave me his phone number. We were gonna go to a concert together. John and I both loved ⁓ electronic music. So we were gonna go to E EDC with a group of friends. ⁓ And so he and I exchanged phone numbers and started texting. We both ended up not actually going to the concert, ⁓ which is fine because we ended up connecting again ⁓ just a couple short months later. And he gave me his number again and I said, ⁓ you're already in my phone. ⁓ you're Johnny pilot is what I had him saved as because all I knew is his name was Johnny. He's a pilot and his friend said, I think you two might like each other. So that's how we met.
speaker-0: Wow, that's amazing. And it's it's amazing ⁓ how yeah, how dedicated he was to the to the craft of ⁓ of aviation and how that was even in your first interaction, something that you talked about. So he Embry Riddle, obviously probably the premier institution for studying ⁓ aerodynamics and aviation. So I'd be very interested. Could you tell us about his path from from flying there to becoming a marine pilot?
speaker-1: Yes. So he dreamed of flying since he was eight years old. So ⁓ his grandfather served in the military and one of his grandfather's dear friends, who was a mentor to John throughout his life, they always stayed in touch. ⁓ he took John up when he was eight in a ride for with a Yak fifty-two aircraft. ⁓ and so he was sold at that point. He wanted to become a military pilot. So he grew up Holding on to that dream, his family protected that dream and they took him to air shows, the Reno air races, air museums. I mean, he just absorbed anything he could about flying and aviation and military history, you name it. So fast forward, he went to Embry Riddle. And so when I met him, it was after, you know, when he was finishing up school, he had just graduated, moved back home to Northern California. We both met. And in our very first date, he said. I would like to be a military pilot. He he had already had his ⁓ commercial rating, multi-engine ⁓ IFR at that point. He was going to become a CFI at some point to build up his hours. And I said, ⁓ that's great. And I told him, Well, you know, these these are my career dreams as well. And it was great and we enjoyed it. His his passion for flying made me instantly just start falling in love with him because I had never met someone before that knew what they wanted to be. From childhood and then relentlessly pursued that. And so two years later, after we started dating, I got a call saying I was accepted to officer candidate school for the Marine Corps. I leave in about a month. And then we got engaged in that time. He left and we did the nine month ⁓ separately during OCS. I was still in California and he was at officer candidate school and then the basic school. And then we got married during the basic school and moved to Penskola together. So his path ⁓ really was the fact that he graduated from Ember Riddle, got all those ratings. He ended up becoming a CFI in that two-year window. ⁓ he had almost enough hours where he could have just gone to the airline and that would have been a great career for him. And he would have found it very fulfilling and loved it, but that wasn't what he dreamed of his whole life. And so, of course, when He got that chance and he wanted to take it. It was yes, hundred percent. You should go and you should do this. ⁓ and he went on to earn his wings of gold in twenty twenty, ⁓ which was actually the same week that our first daughter was born. So she was six days old at his winging ceremony in her stroller, ⁓ which is really special knowing that she was there for that too.
speaker-0: Wow, yeah. That is an incredibly special moment. I reflecting on while you were speaking, I just can't help think about but but to think about. There are so many people who just catch this bug of aviation and who just are absolutely so in love with flying and everything that ⁓ that has to do with it. And then there are people who really want to serve and who are open to flying and and are you know are interested in it, but it's not necessarily kind of their lifeblood. It's wonderful to see that John had almost equal parts of both that that unbeatable, undying love of aviation that that you've seen if if anybody who knows pilots, you've seen guys and girls like this who it's just all they think about all the time. And then couple that with his desire to serve is really special. You see both of those two things separately. It's it's pretty rare that there are folks who know for a fact that they want to do both and who pursue it so relentlessly. So that definitely gives us a great picture of his spirit as an aviator and as a marine officer.
speaker-1: Yeah. And as as his wife, I I speak about those days with so much joy because getting to see your person accomplish everything that they wanted to and everything that they set out to do and seeing how hard it was to, you remember with flight school, I mean there's ups and downs, there's a lot of stress. ⁓ and moving from platform to platform, ⁓ but he loved it. He loved it. ⁓ it was hard, but it was fulfilling. And so getting to see him earn his wings and finally get to the fleet, become a purple fox, I mean, that will always be one of the best things ⁓ of my entire life that I've been able to to do and witness ⁓ to support him in that.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. And it it's also crazy to reflect on how much experience he had before joining the Marines regarding flying. All those qualifications and certifications take an incredible amount of hard work. ⁓ and then being able to leverage that to become a a Marine pilot is really special as well. So we talked a lot about his love of of ⁓ we've touched on a little bit his love of family, and I'm I know we're gonna talk about that more. We talked about his love of aviation, but Is there anything that really stands out to you to get us to fully understand John as a person outside of flying?
speaker-1: He was one of the most joyful spirits he could ever meet. He was so funny. ⁓ some he had the best, ⁓ especially as a marine dark sense of humor. ⁓ he would just say the most off the wall thing sometimes, you know, no matter what was going on in my life, even you know, when I'm in labor with our daughter and it's like high stress, he would say something just to bring me out of that for a moment and laugh. And just such a spirit of like light and lightness and giving himself to others. I mean, no matter how much time ⁓ he had to spend with the military and how limited his personal time was, he was always showing up as a dad, as a husband, as a son, as a brother. I mean, he was all of these things. And then also taking calls from people that wanted to fly, investing in others. He loved being at the squadron. He loved serving. I mean, he just service is like really encompassing of John. He had that. that heart to love and to give ⁓ without expecting much in return from anybody either. ⁓ he didn't complain very often at all. ⁓ it was very rare to hear John complain about something ⁓ because he just realized how blessed he was with the path that he was on. He realized how much it took to get there. and he saw it as just a big honor ⁓ to be a dad, to be a Marine, to be a pilot. It was never lost on him putting that uniform on every day.
speaker-0: Yeah, what a what a beautiful description. And and ⁓ you know, any anyone I ever met who knew him, ⁓ definitely shared that same that same ⁓ mindset or that shame that same depiction of him as a joyful and selfless person. and so yeah, thank you so much for sharing that with our audience as well. And so reflecting on a lot of what we've talked about in the past. ⁓ there was something that really stood out to me. So transitioning, we we've gotten to know John a little bit through your words. So thank you for that. ⁓ and I want to talk a little bit about the experience of of Swift One One. So there's something that you that you said that stood out to me, which was describing life as being split as before the Swift One One mishap and after. Can you describe a little bit what you mean by that?
speaker-1: Yeah, there's I mean, a lot of people talking through grief and profound loss and being so connected to it. There is very much a before and an after. ⁓ there are a lot of times, and this may sound dramatic to those that haven't experienced it, but it's this sensation that the person you were also died with them that day. And a beautiful twist on that that I've heard is like a part of you went with them. And so you also kind of transform into who you need to be to survive for a little bit. And then sometimes that person also needs to fall away to become something new. And so as a military spouse, you feel like you live many lives with all the duty stations and the different things that you're encountering and experiences and rapid growth throughout all of that. But losing a spouse, ⁓ losing, you know, a son, a brother, a cousin, it really transforms you into this before John died, before Swift One and after. And and that also goes for the people that were connected to the incident, the people that were there. I've heard them describe it as well. And with military aviation in general, as you know better than I do, there's also this before and after when you first lose somebody you know. And so ⁓ with other MOSs, there's there's lots of risks. ⁓ with aviation, it's The the bands that people are wearing, you start noticing the more years of their career, the more likely they're gonna have one on. And I'm not trying to say one is more dangerous than the other, takeaway from what each person faces, but there is this shift after flight school, and you don't know when it's gonna happen, and then it does. ⁓ and for us, it was just a few months before SWIFT 11. And it was ⁓ with the Norway mishap. ⁓ John knew. ⁓ Ross, one of the co-pilots, or one of the pilots on that mishap, the co-pilot. And the memorial day after that was different. The discussions we had around mishaps were different. The discussions we had about his job were different. It really shifted everything. And so with Swift One One, I was very keenly aware that there were friends that had already gone through that shift, but there were also people making that shift at the same time that our family had been flipped upside down. ⁓ and it's a ripple. throughout the community. The extent of it, you really don't know until you talk to people and you see how it impacted them years later and how it changed their family as well. So that's that's really the shift. And it doesn't just happen for the families, it happens for the whole community connected to that.
speaker-0: No, what a what an incredible description of that of that phenomenon or sensation. It it really made me think I didn't realize that John knew ⁓ the folks who were involved in the Norway mishap that he knew Rost. It makes sense the timelines lined up, but I was unaware of that. I I remember as you talk about this shift, I remember checking in to my my unit ⁓ when I was a junior co pilot and hearing some of the stories. Our unit had just gotten back from deployment. All the senior pilots were like gods to us, these junior guys. And there were a couple of guys who were wonderfully talented and who were kind of stepping away from the community. And it didn't really make sense to us because we, you know, everything for us was about flying and growth and and progressing and becoming the best aviator possible. But there had been a mishap ⁓ in the CH 53 community and a number of those pilots were very close with with some of the personnel on that mishap. And you could see how that shifted their perspective so massively. And so I've I've never really thought about it in the terms that you put, but certainly have seen that. and yeah, you you mentioned you know, before and after you mentioned how that was for your family and how that ⁓ impacts the community. I wonder, you know, when you when you think about discussing the mishap or discussing ⁓ the members who've who've given their lives How how are you able to ⁓ talk about it? How how do you recommend that people go about talking about those things while, you know, you're honoring their lives? You're not ⁓ you know, you don't want to reduce the significance of the mishap, but you also don't want people to be completely distilled to a single moment when they they had full and complex lives.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's challenging as a surviving family member because it's your everyday. ⁓ and I struggled sometimes with I don't want to keep bringing the people that love John and that were impacted by this back to that moment with me. ⁓ sometimes people have described it as like going down to the basement where, you know, dark thoughts come in. ⁓ you're brought back to that moment of time. And and sometimes you feel like you're being dragged back there repeatedly. ⁓ one great example is yesterday was the anniversary of John's final flight of when they brought him home. And so, as much as I kept telling myself throughout the day, I'm gonna be okay, I'm gonna be okay. I got I gotta be a mom, I got other things to do. It still throughout the day my mind kept going back. And so that's a challenge for me. And I know that it can be a challenge for other people. ⁓ when I'm telling John's story and I'm remembering days like that, ⁓ sometimes I don't mention them to people I'm talking to, like, hey, by the way, this was four years ago today. There are some friends that I know I can do that with, some friends that I can't. And also, like you were saying to your point, you don't want to reduce them to that moment, especially ⁓ the the guys on Swift11, we've gotten to know them through their families and just the the light that they were, the joy that they were. And knowing that that keeps coming back to such a dark moment and such a deeply painful moment is not something you want, but you also don't want the acknowledgement to be lost of how how deeply those things impact families and hurt. ⁓ so yeah, it's it's a balance of also sharing their story, but not in a way where people are constantly reminded. In their own lives, you know, when they're looking at their children or when their spouses are flying, you don't want to be that reminder for them. And you also don't want them to look at their kids and take away from that moment of John doesn't get to see his kids grow up and I get to be here. You don't, you don't want them to feel that. And so there is a balance and a need to to show that it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to be okay. It's okay to move forward. It's okay to not. always break down. ⁓ and there's a lot of healing to be found with that. And it's okay to tell the story of their joy and who they were and who they continue to be. ⁓ but there is a balance that can be very difficult to figure out. And I I overthink it, I think. ⁓ so that that's definitely a big, big thing.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, th thank you for for that distillation as well. That is really helpful just to understand the mindset and and how you actually approach something that's so deeply challenging and ⁓ just you know stands out to me every time we we speak. Your strength and your ability to carry these things and and do so with such grace is is deeply impressive. And and I think it's just a great model for others. So thank you for for doing that. I I'm thinking about, you know, you mentioned the ripple effect. And then as we were just chatting, you you mentioned this idea of not necessarily wanting to bring things up all the time or, you know, friends that you can share things with, friends that you don't. I I love the idea or not love is not the correct term, but the idea of going down to the basement. It it makes sense a lot to me because, you know, it's you got to go down to the basement sometimes and you don't share your basement with other people, even some of your close friends. So so that's a really helpful distillation. But I When when I'm thinking about this ripple effect, I and I'm thinking about, you know, the one of the toughest parts for communities, for the aviation community when these things happen is, you know, if it's someone from the squadron who who will then, you know, interact with the family and represent the government. It is it is, you know, this incredibly tight group of people, you know. as you mentioned, obviously our first thoughts go to the to the men and women who give their lives and our second thoughts immediately go to the families. You mentioned repeatedly in our discussions the the other folks. And when I'm thinking about that, I'm thinking about ⁓ you know, just the squadron themselves, these these guys and girls who having witnessed their close friends give their lives, ⁓ they have to go back and continue flying. And so this idea of when when you actually process, how do you actually process and and and when and and how do you bring it up and talk about it, I think is deeply fascinating for the people who have to, you know, continue to go out to do the work and do the job. ⁓ but with all that said, I would really like to ask you about this ripple effect. And and when you say that, that's who who I kind of think about. But there are, of course. countless others who are impacted. And I know you wanted to to touch on that. So could you describe for us who we're who we're thinking about when we think about this ripple effect? And then, you know, if there's something you want them to hear, what would that be?
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. The ⁓ the very like origin of when I f first thought about the ripple was actually when I was waiting for them to come tell me whether or not it was John. So with our case and with many cases, you find out on the news that something happened. Or in my case, I found out through a friend. ⁓ she said an aircraft went down and her brother had texted her asking if she was okay. And I was in the car with her. ⁓ and so I had this moment where ⁓ John was a pilot before he went into the Marine Corps. So we had kind of a a way for me to know if he was okay with the find my friends. Of course, when they're on deployments and things like that, it's a little different. But when they're training, I could see him bouncing around the map and I knew he was okay. ⁓ but I pulled out my phone and I saw that he was not moving on the map and had stopped sending a signal. ⁓ Around the same place and around the same time as Swift 11. And I looked at the news article and it confirmed it was an osprey. And so for me, I was like, okay, John is either not okay, or John just had the worst day of his entire life. And so my friend drove me back home. She asked me if she should go to the squadron. And I said, I need you to take me home. ⁓ they're coming to my door. I need I need to be there just in case. And then, you know, his his family and I were on the phone and I told them everything I knew at the time. And I I told his mom, I think you should get down here. I think you should book a flight. And I said, because either something happened to John or he just witnessed his friends pass away or go down. And so ⁓ His mom ended up booking a flight. I said the same thing to my mom. She ended up hopping on a flight. And then of course, during the in the hours after that is when they came to my door. And the second time I felt the ripple effect was when I opened the door and there are five faces looking at me. One of them in the very front, I didn't recognize at the time. And I later learned that's my casualty assistance officer that was assigned to me. And His task was he knew he had to tell a pregnant woman that her husband had died. And I remember in that moment, I just felt so much sadness for him as well. And then the chaplain in the back I didn't recognize. And then the three Marines in the middle were John's friends that I recognized. And so they came into my living room, and as we're sitting there, the thoughts are going through my mind of knowing the day that they had to have. I knew I knew one of them had been the duty officer. So I knew he had answered the phone. I knew that they had to go home and get those alphas on. And I knew that their whites were probably standing there watching them get their alphas on. And I remember I had questions. I had so many questions. I want to know what happened and what they could tell me. And I want to know if if John was safe, which sounds silly, but I wanted to know where he was and knowing that he was being watched over. And so then my mind went to the people watching over him and the people that responded to the scene was something that was filled in later on with the context. So after they went home, I couldn't sleep. I was lying awake. You know, thinking of the people I had to call the next day. And in the weeks that followed, it started becoming more clear about the post-mishap response. And even in the months, I didn't know all the names of the people that came out till several months later. ⁓ but hearing, you know, there was the mishap, and then there was the Swift ⁓ one one, which was John's aircraft and Swift one two, I had the flight schedule and I knew the names of the people that were on that mishap. I knew their families. ⁓ that was hard knowing the impact that was on them. I knew who was supposed to be in the Osprey later that day. I knew their families. I mean, it just keeps growing as information comes in. And then fast forwarding to all of the others that had to respond to the scene. I shouldn't even say the words had, because I know in their mind it's like this was our duty, this was our training, and this was also an honor. to be able to try to do something and to to try to land and to protect the scene, to watch over them. ⁓ but there were the 53s that landed, there were 60s that landed. ⁓ the ⁓ federal firefighters from El Centro, Imperial County first responders, ⁓ they had a really difficult time getting to where they were. I've had the opportunity to speak to some of them. over the years and that has helped me in my grief journey. And I think it helped them as well with that connection and being able to talk to someone about it because they don't, they don't necessarily get the same thoughts and prayers constantly directed at them that the families do. And on those days when they're also pausing and reliving those moments, I want them to know that so many of the surviving family members are thinking about them too. And we my mind still comes back to that and how many people were involved. ⁓ we did have the opportunity to go out to the scene and to also go out and meet some of the people that responded. And I was able to give them one of John's coins. ⁓ I wrote a lot of letters to, ⁓ which I was thankful that the squadron provided me with that list because I didn't know whether or not they would. And so the week of our wedding anniversary. The following year, ⁓ I wrote the letters and I struggled writing them because I was like, I know this is cathartic for me. I want to make sure when they read this, this also is good for them, too. So finding the right words. And one of the points I kept saying to them was, our family's grateful that you were there. We're grateful for everything you did for us. ⁓ on behalf I I think I even wrote on behalf of John. Too, because I know he's the kind of guy that would never want anyone to have to be in that kind of situation. And just expressing to them that I think about them. And I hope that they don't carry what came from that day. I hope if they're one of the people that are pilots or crew that they keep flying, if that's what they choose to do, it's what John would want them to do. ⁓ like I said, it there was a struggle of knowing. how to reach those people and get that message out there to them. ⁓ but whether or not I ever get to meet them, I want them to know that we all think about them, all of the families from SWIFO11, it's a common thing that we all think about them.
speaker-0: Yeah, that is a remarkable journey that ⁓ you just took us on. I I think it's it's truly remarkable that among the first thoughts that you had were the empathy for the the Marines who came to your door and then immediately thinking about all those people when of course you and your family were experiencing such a tragic loss. I I think it's incredibly powerful that you had those conversations or wrote those letters. And I I think you're absolutely spot on that. ⁓ you know, these aviators, both the the crew chiefs, the marines, the firefighters, all these people, they it is it is their duty. And I think sometimes when we go to do these things, we don't understand the degree to which they impact us. And so getting a message like that from you, I know must have meant the world to those people. And I and I think is helpful for people to realize too, you know, when you are engaged in in the other side of these. investigations or ⁓ mishap response, it does have an impact on you. And ⁓ it it is it is profound, even when you you feel that, you know, you're detached from it while you're actually doing the, you know, the work or or that kind of thing. It it it leaves an imprint on you. And so thank you for sharing that message. Them I I do hope that ⁓ that they're listening and that that they hear that message and and I I'm really just in awe of the tremendous empathy that you and the and the other families have for these men and women who responded to their duty. ⁓ but that that really stands out ⁓ as a beautiful thing. So thank you for that. ⁓ I know we we mentioned the the concept of it's okay to be okay. I think something that is really hard for folks who either have experience lost or those who have not to understand is the concept of moving on. Or not moving on. And I think I would be very interested in your thoughts on what it means to move on because I I think that that's a very loaded term. My my first inclination is that, you know, we never truly move on, but that we also need to continue living. And so with that in mind and with that reflection of mine, I'd be very interested in your thoughts on that idea.
speaker-1: The the idea of moving on, yeah, it's those words even are difficult. I think moving forward is the the term that someone first said to me, they said that you don't move forward. And this has been said many times. ⁓ I can't remember who said it to me first, but whoever did is stuck with me. It's moving forward with them alongside you. And so, in a lot of ways, ⁓ it's not like I I pack away those memories in my mind and I I stop surrounding myself with reminders. It's not like I'm shutting myself out to that. It's quite the opposite. It's a desire to incorporate John into my life, into everything I'm doing, into my parenting, my kids, ⁓ having conversations about him each day and showing them that it's okay to live fully. It's okay. To go out there and laugh and have fun and experience. And at first, that feels like a betrayal. ⁓ I think, not just for the families, but for those that served alongside them, because there's this thought, and I think this guilt that people have ⁓ of that could have been me. Why was it them? And then I get to continue to fly. I get to continue to, you know, kiss my children goodnight. I get to continue to do all these things. It's not fair they don't. And I don't want anyone to feel that way because I know I felt that way in the beginning. I had a really hard time being the surviving parent. I had a hard time with milestones for my kids and seeing that I got to experience them and he didn't. And I think that the thought that comes back to is I do not honor him by by grieving even in the happy moments. Even though it's you ca you can't help it sometimes, you know, my daughter singing or, you know, blowing out her birthday candles. That moment's hard. ⁓ but it's up to me to model for my kids. And I think it's up to all of us kind of to find that healing and find that joy again. And ⁓ knowing John and and hearing the stories about everybody ⁓ in the the very large gold star family community that I have gotten to know and meet, the common thread is they're like they wouldn't want us to suffer and hurt. ⁓ living our lives fully is the best way to honor them. That's a common theme that I'm very grateful to see pop up on on a lot of military pages, veteran pages. It's not something that any one person I think really developed or came up with, but it's this thought that They don't get to continue to live their life any longer. We have to live for them. And I know that John loves seeing the experiences that I am taking his kids on. He loves seeing the moments of joy that we have. He loves seeing us discover life again. and I know he would want that for everybody else that struggles with those feelings. ⁓ so it's it's necessary to move forward. ⁓ you don't want to get stuck and they also wouldn't want to see you stuck. And so it's it's the biggest way we can honor them.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you for parsing that out and and that concept not moving on but moving forward with them and honoring them through a full life is is ⁓ really deeply powerful. You you mentioned the large gold star community. I'd be very interested in ⁓ your interactions with that group and and how that began or you know, did someone reach out to you? How did that work?
speaker-1: Yeah, right after the mishap, I was in shock and I didn't really know who to talk to about everything I was experiencing and feeling. ⁓ it was a lot to process all at once. And you have these thoughts as a military spouse of what I would do if this were me, what I would do if I got the knock on the door. And that all goes out the window completely. you almost go into this like survival. Part of your brain where nothing makes sense. You feel like you're almost even in a simulation. You're reminding yourself all day that they died. And it's really hard even to have interactions with people that haven't experienced that. There's almost a language you speak and an understanding, an unspoken understanding you have when someone's been touched by grief. ⁓ And so I was fortunate there were some people in my life that got it. And a lot of people where I thought, I'm so grateful they don't. ⁓ but it's isolating. And so the former commanding officer of our unit, his wife, ⁓ because they had been in military aviation for so long, she had a few friends that had lost their spouses. And I was so grateful that she put me in touch with them. And speaking with them in those early days was like oxygen. It was a a lifeline. I Was grateful they took the time. I almost felt like I didn't belong in that community because it hadn't really registered to me yet that this was our life. ⁓ like I said, I had to keep reminding myself all throughout the day. And so talking to them helped, connecting with gold star parents, gold star siblings, gold star. relatives, cousins, things like that, it really helps fill out your perspective and realizing that grief is like a fingerprint. It's different for everyone. Every loss is different. There are a lot of commonalities that they understand and that they have felt too, but every experience and and the timing to start healing, the timing when it doesn't feel like you're drowning. I mean, those all vary person to person and there's no right or wrong way to grief or to experience that. But It's the community you never want to be a part of, but once you're in it, there's a safety, a feeling of safety and security in being seen. ⁓ if I'm ever out and about and I meet a gold star family member instantly, I'm just like, let me get your number. Let's let's be friends, let's meet up, let's talk. They they become like a family to you. And it's a powerful thing because the the military family, especially marine aviation. is such a tight-knit community. The Gold Star community is is another side of that. It's so unique and special. And it carries you through the most difficult, hardest days. ⁓ just from those people being willing to take a call, respond to a text.
speaker-0: Yeah, wow. I I mean, to think about, you know, the power of shared experience and then ⁓ when that experience is so difficult to be able to lean on a group of people like that. It it's really tremendous of of the CO's wife to have have shared that information with you guys and ⁓ yeah, just a testament to the beauty of the whole thing, despite, you know, what what a horrible, you know, un unfortunate reason to be connected. But thankfully ⁓ you know, you're able to provide that mentorship and and community. So I know we we talked about ⁓ we've talked about a lot of things thus far. And one thing that really stands out to me is just the strength and the composure with which you've navigated. Although I'm sure there were times when maybe you didn't feel that way. But there's there's a word that comes to mind when I think about you ⁓ and it's it's resiliency. And so I wonder, you know, is resiliency is kind of a not a buzzword, but it's a fairly common word that people use to describe strength and and ⁓ you know, anyone who has to navigate challenges. When you think about resiliency in your life ⁓ and in your experience, what does that really mean to you?
speaker-1: I think resilience and in my experience from from how I have walked through it go hand in hand with kind of empathy and understanding. ⁓ there is a level of strength and empathy that comes from suffering. And and you don't want anybody to earn it. ⁓ but you're grateful to carry that because you can use that to impact and help other people. You realize very quickly how little. certain things actually matter that used to seem so large. And in other ways, you also realize how precious life is, how little time we have, and knowing where to dedicate your time and attention and invest yourself and where not to. so a lot of it has come from wanting to show up and be that person for someone else, healing so that I can be that person. And also as a mom, healing for my children. And and realizing that the way that I view what happened also trickles down to how they view what happened. It's this way that I can talk to them of how blessed we are that this is your daddy in heaven, how blessed we are that he's still walking through life with you, how blessed we are that he's watching over for you, how blessed we are that that got to be your daddy. And my daughter Eleanor carries a lot of pride. And who her father is. She likes to watch his videos all the time. She likes to see his pictures. She asks questions about him. She brings him up in conversation almost every day. ⁓ so a lot of the resilience came out of necessity of knowing that I had to set that tone for them. ⁓ and and also with others in the community too. I think they look to you for permission. permission to feel and also permission to move forward. ⁓ I've talked to people who are like, I feel guilty even talking to you about how much SWIFON ON impacted me because this is your life. And really it's like everybody that was impacted by it deserves to be heard and validated and speak about it. And I appreciate taking those calls. I appreciate knowing that when our family is pausing and when this is our everyday other people also pause. But the other side of that is I don't want them to carry it every day as a weight. I don't want it to drag them down and I want them to be able to move forward.
speaker-0: Absolutely. I this is just incredibly eye-opening to me to hear about your experience and to to think about at the beginning of the episode when we talked about your the way that you described ⁓ John, and then hearing about your response to everything that has occurred since then really does show very clearly that you're living your life in a way that is, you know, magnifying the things that he cared about. And That I think stands out in everything you just said about your family and and and how you're showing up for others. But also I think in the Captain Sachs foundation and how you're taking the things that were so important to him that of course could be cause for negativity, you know, his love of aviation ⁓ could be something that you are no longer interested in and would be very understandable. But you're in fact the opposite and you've created a foundation that is creating incredible opportunities for I want to say young people, but realistically it's it it seems like it's for anyone interested in the aviation community. So I would love to hear the founding idea. How did how did you come up with the idea and and how did you how did you make this choice to, you know, honor your husband through this foundation?
speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's hard to hate aviation. ⁓ it's also hard to hate the Marine Corps or to hate even the aircraft, the V22, because of how much John loved them. And so I I don't, I really don't. ⁓ John was living his dream life and he would say that all the time. He would have these full circle moments. Like he would fly into Lake Havasu as an embryo riddle student. And then as a Marine Corps pilot, he was flying to Lake Havasu. And he'd see these small planes. He'd see now he's the one in the seat of the super cool military aircraft. And when they're dreaming, they're dreaming of this. And he's remembering that moment and all the work it took to get there. And those were the times that he was just like glowing. I mean, he would just come home cloud nine every single day, regardless of how long the day was, how hot the cockpit was, how exhausted he was. And anything that might have gone wrong in the day didn't matter. And so that was kind of where it came from in the beginning of this was John's dream life. John, we need to do good in his honor. John was good. The epitome of John is like to love to know John is to love John. John was love. And so what better way to honor him than to serve those communities that became a second family to him that felt like home to him that he felt so connected to. And when it came to be, it was actually right after the squadron memorial. Cause I was getting a lot of people coming up to me saying, How can we help you? What can we do for you and your kids? ⁓ how, how can we help your family? And being a military spouse, you hear this a lot with Gold Star Widows of like you're used to being independent and just figuring it out. And it's you and your spouse against the world. You're You're living in an unfamiliar city. You're just figuring it out. I mean, you don't rely on other people a ton, you know, for support, ⁓ beyond the military community, you know. And so I didn't know what to do with that question. And so my answer that kept playing in my head was help me build his legacy, help him be remembered, help people know John, help people know his impact, carry forward the things that mattered to him. And so I started talking to my casualty assistance on officer and some of the Marines like on base, the JAG, saying, How do I set up a nonprofit or a fund where people that want to help us can help us by carrying forward his legacy, donate money, we turn around, we give these to aviation students. And, you know, John, he went to Embry Riddle, very expensive school. You know, he partially funded his education with. you know, family support, student loans, grants, working as a student employee at Embry Riddle. ⁓ we had student loans as a married couple we were paying on. So like we knew that feeling that a lot of people have from having to pay for flight training. ⁓ also as a CFI, you know, he would have those students that were so passionate. They could if they could, they would fly every single day and they they would finish all their ratings and they would just go. But it's so incredibly expensive. And so That's where it came out of. So we formed the Captain Sachs Foundation. And we're a little unique. It's not just for aspiring aviators, it's also for people that are building their hours, transitioning out of service, ⁓ rotor pilots, somebody that may not have enough hours. They may have certain ratings they need before they could go to the airlines or fly professionally. We also expand out to engineering students. Aviation maintenance, any sort of technical program, air traffic control, anything related to aviation. And a big reason behind that was John lived and breathed flight. there were periods of time throughout his career when he couldn't be in the cockpit and he was in a supporting role. He loved every minute of it. And it takes that whole community in order to make flight possible. And we want to fund those dreams too. ⁓ There are also some people because becoming a pilot ⁓ is not something that everybody is able to pursue ⁓ for so many reasons. It could be, you know, financial limitations, but it also could be medical limitations and things like that. But they just love it and they want to be connected to it. We want to fund those dreams too. And so that's what we do. That's what we've been doing since we had our official launch in twenty twenty-three. We have given out over eighty thousand dollars in scholarship so far. And by the end of this year, we are hoping, ⁓ and I say hoping, fingers crossed, because things could always change, but we're hoping to hit over the hundred thousand mark by the end of this year and scholarships given out ⁓ to people pursuing that path. And ⁓ I have to tell you that giving our grief a place to go, not just for me, but for our friends and for the community to be able to support that has been a really healing experience for all of us. ⁓ And it's something I know John would be really proud of.
speaker-0: That is so incredible. The the the Captain Sachs Foundation is so awesome. And, you know, from the aviation side, just like the pure love of aviation, to the fact that it's helping folks who are transitioning out of the service. And I think a lot about how as a marine pilot, you're always thinking about the Marines. And like as much as you love flying, and as much as John clearly like had this this deep love of flying, he was he was a good Marine officer. And so he was I'm sure always thinking about his maintainers and the team that makes it all happen. So to be able to capture that in this foundation is so special. And I I'm just deeply impressed by how it it truly does seem to embody his spirit. ⁓ and, you know, not to mention, I just really admire the philanthropic aspect of it and and taking away some of the barriers because it is, you know, I think everybody listening to this will will already know this, but. the barrier to becoming a professional pilot is is so high and it's almost entirely financial. Like like you mentioned, there are people who have different things that prevent them from being able to ⁓ to do it that are outside of finances. But even for the folks who are medically capable and and have the aptitude, there is just a mountain to climb in terms of getting the the right hours, hours or money. And so to see the work that you guys are doing is is truly incredible. ⁓ and yeah, just Thank you for doing that ⁓ for all the men and women who will who will work on and fly planes coming forward. So we've talked about the foundation. We'll circle back to that before the end of the episode. But what the last thing I wanted to to touch on is just this idea of advocacy and using your voice. So we've talked in the past about, you know, folks feeling like maybe they don't have a voice or maybe they don't want to speak out. What is your thought process on, you know, using your experience as a manner to to help move the ball forward when it comes to different issues about which you're passionate?
speaker-1: Yeah, before John, and this is one of those before and after too. Before John passed away, I didn't have any idea how to have a voice as a military spouse. If I had concerns about aviation safety, aircraft safety, living conditions for military families, all of these things that we're facing. I didn't know how to express those. And to be honest, I almost Have this fear that if I did in the wrong way, it could negatively impact his career. And there's a transition that we're seeing in our military these days with the spouse community, where they're learning how to use their voice, being unafraid to use their voice. There's a lot of advocate advocacy groups popping up, leadership groups popping up, a lot of funding to nonprofits to empower military spouses to be leaders. And that's such a great thing because. When John passed away, and when the investigation came out, and there were some lingering concerns that they hadn't fully resolved what ended up causing their aircraft to go down. And that was where the advocacy for the V-22 community was really born from was this hasn't been fully fixed and people aren't talking about it enough. And There are a lot of people that might know someone that serves in the military, but realistically, there's such a small percentage of people that know what it's like to be holding their breath, checking their phone, and scared when their loved one is flying. ⁓ and it just because they don't know how that feels doesn't mean it shouldn't matter. And so that's where we started speaking up and encouraging people, whether they're connected to the community or not, to say, ask these questions. And these are how you can ask them. So writing Your local congressman looking up who they are, sending them a letter and just saying, I'm a concerned citizen. I saw this investigative report. Has this been fixed? Why was more not done? How did this even happen to begin with? And just asking those difficult questions. There's a lot of times that the congressmen and women aren't aware that this is even a problem. ⁓ they don't know the history behind it. The experts really can be the military community and the surviving families. And you're sitting across from them and you're bringing them up to speed on this is the last time we had a B-22 hearing. This is the last time there was really public oversight into this. Here's the history of what we know with public information. Can you find out anything else for us behind the scenes? Can you use your power to get those answers? And so we started writing letters, we started getting meetings. Sometimes people write back and say, Thank you for writing me. Thank you for what you're doing. I'm sorry for your loss. ⁓ I encourage you to write back and say, I'd like to meet. ⁓ don't take the letter as the end of the response because sometimes sitting face to face with you, even virtually, and seeing your face, seeing a picture of your loved one, it makes a difference. So for us, that's really what it came to. And, you know, the family members were texting one another of just met with Senator so and so, just met with Congressman, blah, blah, blah, just wrote a letter to this person. Just call this phone number. Here's their contact if you want to call them too. And we really started rising up together. And we were all unified, which is something that's really powerful on that. ⁓ every, every single person that lost their life on Swift 11, so Nick, John, Seth, Nathan, and Evan had loved ones that wanted to use their voice and join the fight. And so we did. And we were able to get a hearing. And I'm not saying we were the ones that got the hearing. We contributed. We were just another voice in the wind. Collective voices have power saying we need oversight. We need answers. And they had a hearing and progress came out of that. They had another hearing, progress came out of that. And those in-between times when things are quiet, we're still sending letters, we're still meeting with people, we're still reminding them. We haven't heard this has been fixed. Have you heard anything? You should still be asking questions. And this is why it should matter to you. And those things do drive change. And if anything, they give hope to the community too. ⁓ I had this feeling of self-consciousness when I was sharing, you know, my very small like friends and family social media, sharing, you know, what we're doing, who we're meeting with, what we're saying, ⁓ making posts saying I'm still really. Holding I'm holding on to this and I'm still very upset. It hasn't been fixed. Why aren't more people caring about this? Please be writing and encouraging other people. And that was hard for me. ⁓ and I didn't want people to view it as like, Amber, you need to let this go. Amber, you're not gonna make a difference. And that's those were the thoughts in my head that I had because I just didn't know ⁓ whether or not I was helping anybody. But then there were those other messages coming through from people in the community saying, My husband, every time he flies, I'm scared. Or my wife and my my son, my daughter. And thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for not letting this go. ⁓ and so the encouragement I hope to put out there is not just for surviving families. And I do want to say if you choose not to advocate, that is perfectly okay too. There is no obligation. You don't owe anybody anything. It's a personal choice. And then for the people that are still in the community or people that just separated out of it. It can be very cathartic and healing and helpful in your own journey to write those letters and to know that you did something and to demand those meetings and be relentless because nobody is gonna care more than the people that are actually attached to the community. ⁓ and it it's also a way to build their legacy because John's death and Nick, Seth, Nathan, Evan, it can't be that they died. And then more people continue to die because they didn't fix it. That can't be the case. It needs to be they lost their lives and nobody else lost their lives because of hard clutch engagement. It was fixed. It was resolved. It never happened again. That needs to be the end of the story. And so that's kind of the purpose that we find from the advocacy. ⁓ I want them to know John's name. And I want them to know his face and I want them to think about him. And he's more than just a name in a news story. It's more than just a sad story.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, once again, just thinking about the what it takes to maintain the effort and maintain the pressure and maintain the I mean, the fact that you're you've taken this incredibly difficult scenario and you're standing up and you're moving the ball forward for what you believe in, I just think is is truly remarkable. And and I you know, a couple takeaways from that being one, you know, your voice can matter if you if you use your voice and anybody you know, can can write a letter and and it feels like it it it may not matter, but doing it can can be the can can make a difference. And then B, yeah, that it's challenging for people to do that. What you just described sounds so difficult and so hard. And to be grappling with this all the time takes a you know a s a stoic leader and someone who is willing to do it even if it's hard. And I just think that that speaks really highly of you and the other families that you all are so committed and and are are continuing to to advocate and push these these issues about which you're so passionate. So we've we've covered a lot in this episode and I something I'm reflecting on is like technically this is a leadership podcast. And the reason why I asked you on is a you know to to celebrate the lives of of members of Swift One One and and especially John, who of course was a great leader himself. But also like I really do admire you deeply as a leader. And and while we've talked a lot about recovering from grief or or dealing with grief and moving forward, not moving on, I think those are a lot of leadership lessons as well, beyond just the grief sphere. And so with that, I ask everyone who comes on the show, you know, if there's If there's one piece of advice that you have someone who's who's stepping into a leadership role or if there's a specific trait that you think is something that's important for people to hone, what would that be?
speaker-1: Leading with empathy above all else because you think you know what someone could be going through or experiencing, but until it's your life, you don't. and just making sure that anytime you're dealing with someone that might be difficult or they might not be handling something well, or there are ways that you think they could be better, you have to realize a lot of our decisions come from a place of pain and survival and just Trying to do our best. And so ⁓ the times that people were giving me a lot of grace in my healing journey, especially in that first year, as I was just learning to breathe again, ⁓ those made the biggest difference in my life. And in turn, when I'm dealing with people, I always try to pause and ask myself, where where is this person coming from? What don't I understand? What don't I know? And what could I never understand or experience because I haven't walked their shoes and choosing to show love in those moments and patience and choosing also just to see the good in them and forgiveness even. ⁓ there's there's something really powerful about healing and choosing to heal. And it's not the easier road.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And I completely agree that when it comes to leadership, empathy is key and that it oftentimes is very challenging to to actually ⁓ implement. So last question, you know, we've got the the founder of the Captain Sachs Foundation where we talked about the one hundred thousand dollar goal by the end of year. Is there a place where people can can make a donation or find out more information?
speaker-1: Yes, yeah, capped saxfoundation.org. So C A P T S A X like Saxophone Foundation.org. ⁓ they can go there to read about John's story, our scholarship program, our FAQ page. They can make a donation if they feel so led. And then most importantly, our transparency page talks about how we use those donations. We have a hundred percent donation guarantee. ⁓ I personally cover the expenses for the foundation because I want people to know when they give us a dollar, it's going to a recipient. And there's no question on if it's directed anything anywhere else. ⁓ and the reason why I do that is because I know these stories are healing for all of us. When they see someone say, Thank you for my scholarship, it made a difference in my life, I want them to feel like my donation funded that scholarship. My donation did that. ⁓ because it's It's not just for us that are volunteering. It is for the whole community, the Captain Sachs Foundation, and making sure that they can find the healing in that experience too.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. And we'll make sure to have the link ⁓ with the show as well and hopefully be able to bring some traffic your way for a very important and ⁓ and awesome cause. So, Amber, thank you so much for the work you're doing. Thank you so much for sharing your story and thank you for joining us on the show today. Thanks so much for listening to Lead Above a Scott, brought to you by the VA Lender. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow the show and leave a rating or review.
speaker-1: Appreciate it.
speaker-0: wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow along on Instagram at LeadWithBubba and let us know your thoughts on the episode. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.